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13 years ago

How is it an epic fail? He has at least a few hundred writers and probably that in customers. I haven't seen one person who is actually writing for iWriter up in arms about the email that went out accidentally. The only ones I've seen complain do not work for iWriter so what's the beef?

I still don't get why people get so angry over what someone else chooses to accept for pay. You choose for you. How does it hurt you if someone else chooses to work for less than you do?

It is total nonsense that it hurts the market and any decent writer knows that. The market this service appeals to is not the same one that higher end writers are even targeting.

Do people really think that if we eliminate the lower prices, that marketers will all of a sudden pay higher prices because they somehow would have to?

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nm5419

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

How does it hurt you if someone else chooses to work for less than you do?

It is total nonsense that it hurts the market and any decent writer knows that. The market this service appeals to is not the same one that higher end writers are even targeting.

It 'hurts' because their clients, often disappointed with the results, expect better quality at the same rate, and they approach elite writers with insulting prices. And depending on the temperament of that client, opinions about the industry as a whole can suffer. Especially when misguided clients come to places like this and rant that while less-than-minimum wage rages are the norm, writers are snobs for demanding more.

It's word-of-mouth gone South, ass-backwards, and inside out. And the worst part about it all is that these sourpusses actually influence other clients, ultimately reproducing their misconceptions like a disease that's sometimes impossible to cure.

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

Do people really think that if we eliminate the lower prices, that marketers will all of a sudden pay higher prices because they somehow would have to?

Uh... yeah! That's why we have a thing called industry standards.

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Tina Golden

13 years ago

Originally Posted by nm5419

It 'hurts' because their clients, often disappointed with the results, expect better quality at the same rate, and they approach elite writers with insulting prices. And depending on the temperament of that client, opinions about the industry as a whole can suffer. Especially when misguided clients come to places like this and rant that while less-than-minimum wage rages are the norm, writers are snobs for demanding more.

It's word-of-mouth gone South, ass-backwards, and inside out. And the worst part about it all is that these sourpusses actually influence other clients, ultimately reproducing their misconceptions like a disease that's sometimes impossible to cure.

Uh... yeah! That's why we have a thing called industry standards.

You will never see industry standards when it comes to the internet marketing masses. It's simply not going to happen. That is why there is a plethora of spinning software out there, churning out crap day after day. Those type of people won't pay more, they'll just find another shortcut to churn out more crap.

As to influencing the market, I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. My own experiences and those of many other writers I know do not bear out your statement.

I don't lack for work, unless I choose not to take it, and the lowest rate I go is $20 for a 500 word piece. That's when I'm running a special offer, which doesn't happen all that often.

Most of the time, I am turning away work at my full rates which range from app. .05 per word up to .10 per word. That is working exclusively with internet marketers because I enjoy the market. I know many other writers who are in my range for rates that have to turn away work consistently.

If you are a good writer and you're making less, it's because you choose to or you're lousy at marketing yourself. That has nothing to do with buyer misconceptions - it has to do with the market YOU choose to target.

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nm5419

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

You will never see industry standards when it comes to the internet marketing masses. It's simply not going to happen. That is why there is a plethora of spinning software out there, churning out crap day after day. Those type of people won't pay more, they'll just find another shortcut to churn out more crap.

Industry standards exist, even for internet marketing. Just because everyone doesn't follow them (for the most part, following them is voluntary anyway), that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

As to influencing the market, I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. My own experiences and those of many other writers I know do not bear out your statement.

Wow. I'm impressed that you've never been offered a quote below your regular rate. That's simply amazing. Almost unheard of, even.

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

If you are a good writer and you're making less, it's because you choose to or you're lousy at marketing yourself. That has nothing to do with buyer misconceptions - it has to do with the market YOU choose to target.

I wasn't addressing earnings. I was addressing the impact that low pay has on job offers. There will always be more than a handful of low-paying cretins in any market that will present low-ball offers. It's an inevitable part of business. That is, unless you live in Pleasantville.

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nellterry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

If you are a good writer and you're making less, it's because you choose to or you're lousy at marketing yourself. That has nothing to do with buyer misconceptions - it has to do with the market YOU choose to target.

I get your POV, I really do. But some writers just starting out online get roped into content mills like this and work their butts off for pitiful pay and then sometimes don't get paid at all. I hate seeing this happen. I know it's the nature of the internet but I'm trying to let as many new writers as I can know that there IS a better way. They don't have to whore themselves out like that.

I think deciding where to work is their choice, but an email to customers flagrantly advertising the fact that they can and should reject poorly written $2 articles - using it as a selling point - is the epic fail here. And I don't mean a marketing fail, I know iWriter is successful. I mean a moral fail.

Writers can choose where to work, and they can choose to write for dirt cheap, you're right. But many don't know any better and think they don't have a choice when they're trying to get food on the table.

When they really do.

And I just think the email was inadvertently boasting about taking advantage of these struggling writers. That's all.

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Tina Golden

13 years ago

Nell, I do see your POV, as well. I just don't see it as the writers being taken advantage of when they are willing to take that rate, that's all. Is it a pathetic rate? Absolutely!

I'm all for educating writers that there are better ways. I just also see it from the other side and don't find it a lack of respect to pay someone a low rate if that's what they're willing to take.

Wow. I'm impressed that you've never been offered a quote below your regular rate. That's simply amazing. Almost unheard of, even.

I didn't say that. What I said was that I have to turn away work at my normal rates.

Sure, there are offers that are lower. I politely inform them that I wouldn't be able to do the work for the rate they offer and that's that. Nothing to get upset over, in my mind.

My point was that there are different markets out there. If you don't choose to work with the lowest paying tier, then go after the bigger fish.

The market that is willing and able to pay the rates you ask are not affected by the lowball offers because they already know better. They don't wish to waste time sifting through dozens of low paid writers to find the one that can actually write legibly.

Since those ARE two different market segments, that's why I don't believe the low offers affect the entire market.

As to the industry standards that you claim to exist, could you point me to a link where they are delineated, please? I've never heard of any but would love to see the ones you talk about.

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nm5419

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

Since those ARE two different market segments, that's why I don't believe the low offers affect the entire market.

Well I guess I just see more of it because that influence *does* happen. Hell, it even happens here, on the WF, with all those WSOs... and on gazillions of freelancer 'affiliate' blog sites... and on just as many YouTube videos that scream "Get website content for just 5 bucks!" (Don Lapre style, of course).

Then there are hundreds of 'writing' services like the one we're discussing. iWrite or whatever it is. It gets pretty hard not to see that influence after a while. Perhaps it's just my constant exposure to the industry that enables me to see what's really going on.

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

As to the industry standards that you claim to exist, could you point me to a link where they are delineated, please? I've never heard of any but would love to see the ones you talk about.

You can start your own research here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=...dards%22&pws=0
For standard pay rates, I like to consult sites like U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

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AuthenticHealthCoaching

13 years ago

I'd pay $6 an article for a well-written article.

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DamenRabat 13 years ago

I used to work for iwriters.... which was awful, to say the least. Zero writers´ protection of any kind.

Clients expect to get premium article for $2 and if they do not like what you write, they can decline the article you´ve written for them (even if it is flawless) and the writer just won´t get paid.

Talk about disregarding people´s efforts and time.
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Gdetonator

13 years ago

Least I pay these days $10 for an article (just about 400 - 500 words) and I'm even willing to pay more than that if that means "quality".

Nell, hundreds if not thousands of people are using iWriter.com for their personal reasons, so... do not judge.

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bmarketer

13 years ago

I totally agree. Writing articles is time consuming and a good writer should settle for the low paying options and instead find the people who understand that they get what they pay for. I only have motivation to write a quality article when I am being paid what I deserve.

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Brad Callen

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bmarketer

I totally agree. Writing articles is time consuming and a good writer should settle for the low paying options and instead find the people who understand that they get what they pay for. I only have motivation to write a quality article when I am being paid what I deserve.

See my reply above. We have 3 levels of writers. Good writers get paid higher than any other writing website where the writers don't have to find their own clients and can write as much as they want.

Anyone making statements like yours is either not aware of the 3 levels in iwriter for writers OR has never seen or used iwriter.

Brad

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Warrior X

13 years ago

Touchy subject here, so I'll try to tread lightly (famous last words)

I purchase content from iWriter. The only time I've declined articles is when someone tried to send me spun crap that wasn't even readable.

I don't know if I represent the typical buyer, but after all...

Writers can see the buyer's stats, so if someone is turning down a lot of articles, they know that.

Personally I don't care what other writers are selling for. I root for them and try to help them out whether they sell below, at, or above what I make.

-Jeremy

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Gdetonator

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

It will be interesting to see if iWriter is a sustainable business model.

So, Brad is now the case study, huh?
This should be very interesting...

PS: I'm not taking sides on this one

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Richard536

Banned 13 years ago

[DELETED]

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Tina Golden 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard536

Touchy subject here, so I'll try to tread lightly (famous last words)

-Jeremy

Seriously? Give it up.
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JCorp

13 years ago

in any market, in any business, there's always going to be competition in quality and in price...and sometimes a competitive price is more appealing to consumers/buyers.

as for the people providing the content/service, if they're sick of working for peanuts then they should take progressive productive action to change their current state.

In the end, it's all about knowledge and applying that knowledge to get ahead.

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Brad Callen

13 years ago

Originally Posted by nellterry

Hi all,

I have a couple of posts from another forum I'd like to share...

So, I received this email... - Writing: Freelancing - WAHM Forums - WAHM.com

Why You Should Avoid Writing for or Buying from iWriter.com - Writing: Freelancing - WAHM Forums - WAHM.com

Now, I don't know if the email was meant to go out to the writers or if it mistakenly went to the wrong list (which is how it seems) but they are up in arms everywhere.

It's really simple, post-Panda: As an IM, you need high quality, 100% original content that won't break the bank. I get it. There are thousands of writers eager to take care of that for you in bulk. But not for $2 an article. And definitely not when the article in question might not even get paid for at all. Why do you think you're getting crap in return?

You get what you pay for.

If you pay us decently - Heck, some writers even consider $6 an article fair - you will have loyal writers who deliver stellar work on time and will follow you to the top. I mean people who will REALLY stay by your side while your profits soar. I'm on this other forum with tons of them, and they have loyal client lists they've served for years.

You get what you give. Any good business looks for the least expensive way to do things, granted - just do it ethically.

Epic fail, Brad.

Epic.

Nell, I'm sorry you feel that way. Please let me respond if I may:

1. There are 3 levels to iwriter:
- basic
- premium
- elite

Each level pays considerably more. Is $2 for a 500 word article cheap, yes.

2. Writers start writing for little money. This is in place to attract BUYERS. New writers need buyers to succeed. This gets buyers in the front door.

3. If a writer puts in work for a week, they can easily get promoted to premium status, which pays almost double what basic pay rate pays.

4. If a writer writes really well for a week and gets enough high reviews, they're promoted to elite status... which, again, pays almost double what premium pays. I have seen plenty of 500 word article requests paying $10+ .

5. There is simply nowhere on the internet that can guarantee that kind of money, where it's a direct correlation between how long you want to work and how much you get paid.

6. I'm in constant contact with our writers. I handle the support desk myself. 99.9% of writers on iwriter are VERY happy for the opportunity that we've built for them. We're constantly adding new features etc. to bring in more stable, higher paying jobs for writers. if you've written on the site long, I'm sure you have noticed. I personally know of many people that are able to completely quit their desk jobs to stay at home with their kids and write on iwriter only.

7. The email you're referring to that was sent out brought in 1000s of new article requests for you to write. Without requests, I think you know what would happen...

Thank you for listening and for writing with iWriter.

Brad

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nm5419

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Brad Callen

1. There are 3 levels to iwriter:
- basic
- premium
- elite

Each level pays considerably more. Is $2 for a 500 word article cheap, yes.

2. Writers start writing for little money. This is in place to attract BUYERS. New writers need buyers to succeed. This gets buyers in the front door.

3. If a writer puts in work for a week, they can easily get promoted to premium status, which pays almost double what basic pay rate pays.

4. If a writer writes really well for a week and gets enough high reviews, they're promoted to elite status... which, again, pays almost double what premium pays. I have seen plenty of 500 word article requests paying $10+ .

5. There is simply nowhere on the internet that can guarantee that kind of money, where it's a direct correlation between how long you want to work and how much you get paid.

Brad, I'm not sure you're aware of who's in this forum, but the $2, (almost) $4, and (almost) $8 per article business model isn't just isn't very attractive to the writers who call themselves professional. I mean, your first two levels don't even pay the $7.25 minimum wage rate in your own state. And to say there are no other places online that pay according to job duration is just crazy.

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Dominis Marketing

13 years ago

Nice of you to clear that up Brad.

I've seen iWriter and it's a good way for new writers to
start getting online work and for webmasters to
get quality content (they can reject poor work).

Reading Brad's explanation, I can say that the $2 is a hook
to get people ordering. Not bad for writers in there
but maybe Brad you can put some kind of check and
balance in there so that it won't get abused.

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nellterry 13 years ago

Thanks for your response Brad. I'm not one of those people who's just going to flame you and not listen. I am curious about the overall rejection rate on your site, though. That was what I was taking issue with more than the low prices. A few people I've talked to who write for your site have noticed that it's hard to find clients with less than a 50% rejection rate. Your email advertised that clients can easily reject articles.

Do you see how finding so many clients with a 50% rejection rate would make it a crap-shoot to write an article? I think doing the work for $2 only to have it rejected and make nothing is kind of absurd. You are saying that writers should do this, write for free (or close to it) for some indeterminate period of time in order to get to the top level and only then will they begin earning $8-$10 an article? Do you really think that's fair?

One more thing I want to clarify... The email advertised articles under $2 to get people in the door, right? How many of those people actually go on to order $10 articles?

I'm just trying to understand here, man.
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- Enfusia 13 years ago
  
  I have a guy in Pakistan that writes 3 500 word articles for $5 and is quite good. No, he's not winning a literary award any time soon. But very decent articles and he gets them done in 2 days.
  
  Think of it like this: I only give him 2 sets per day. He asks for more all the time. Why, because in his country 10 for about 4 hours is better than good money.
  
  I had a house keeper in a nameless south American country who worked all day 8 hours cleaning my home 2 days per week for $10 per day.
  
  I gave her $2 extra for bus fare each day and she thought I was a saint.
  
  If I fired her because I didn't want to pay her so little she would have cried.
  
  So, if people are willing to work for a particular salary or pay why are we involving ourselves.
  
  Otherwise; I think the Pres of XYZ corp is making too little and we should pony up and refuse to pay him the 20 million he's willing to do the job for and we should force him to make 30 million.
  
  Or we should not allow an American contractor for plumbing or roofing etc.. to be able to bid so low to get the job as 28K for a roof just isn't at all fair it must be 40K minimum or you should feel embarrassed to pay it.
  And how dare he bid lower than my friend in Beverly hills just because he lives in Arkansas.
  
  I hope that point comes through.
  
  Patrick
  
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stephenwaldo

13 years ago

Even when I first started as a writer I charged more per 100 words than you're giving writers per article on the 'standard' level, and I had so much work I had to temporarily close my writing service. But I mean, we can be realistic...iWriter is really for writers with cheaper living requirements (aka - not in America), and for some of them it apparently is satisfactory.

But as I think you know, Brad, the problem isn't really with iWriter at all. You're perfectly entitled to run a business any way you choose, and clearly SOME people are happy writing for iWriter.

That's not the problem.

The problem is the voice that you put forward to the buyers and marketers through your email that mistakenly got sent to the writers.

Your writers aren't mad because you're providing a service that allows them to work as much as they want and get paid as much as they want (sort of, but not really). They're mad because in the email you talked about them like dirt.

When you advertise to writers that you know you're selling their own time for 'dirt cheap', they get mad.

Wow, who's surprised?

When you make it clear that the freedom to not pay for articles is one of the perks of joining iWriter, again, the writers get mad...As they should.

You're perpetuating a degradation of the freelance writer's community online, and in that email you made it starkly clear that you're aware of what you're doing and where it puts the writers. *THAT* is the problem.

If you got "1000s of new article requests" from that email, then maybe now is the time to finally bump those rates like you've been saying? When will you have enough buyers for that to be feasible?

I mean, honestly I don't care. As I said at the beginning iWriter was always waaaaay too cheap for me, and I suspect it always will be. My writing service as it stands now charges .05 per word...Is there any way I could make that much on iWriter?

No, I didn't think so.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Kindly,
- Stephen

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CoryW

13 years ago

I really enjoy using writing services sold here on WF. The credibility is already established as there are relatively trustworthy reviews written.

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