Is it true IM products are designed to fail?

74 replies
I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail. They never produce the results that they say on the salespage, because if the did then it would not be necessary to purchase the next launch. So if you make $10, you think "Wow, this really works I made $10" and buy the next product. What do you guys think?
#designed #fail #products #true
  • Depends on the product. Some are pure garbage I'm sure. And some are likely good reads IF you really want to learn something. Just like high school or college - if you WANT to learn, you will. Sometimes the person purchasing the product doesn't think it's any good because they failed to put the concepts learned from it to good use.
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  • Profile picture of the author yoangov
    Depends on the product.

    Some will fail big time

    Others will proffit like crazy

    Cheers,
    Yoangov
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  • Profile picture of the author solado
    I think its just the truth, people make very wild claims on these forums and basicly anything relaing to IM products such as "lose 60 lb's in 60 days!", "earn $345 with this automatic script per day" and "Get women of your dreams starting today" - lets be honest these dont work.
    Im focused on nitche websites as my main form of making money online (advertisements) as people only click the advertisements if they want a genuine result, my niche sites dont premote clicking on the ads for the sake of it.I just feel bad making wild claims that i can improve somes life with a simple .PDF or a video, when i do make WSO or eBooks I will ofcause charge for them but I try my very best to make realistic claims.

    Each people to there very own marketing methods, I might even start to make these wild claims some day in a bid to play for the big $ because lets be honest, it does work for the seller.
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by solado View Post

      I will ofcause charge for them but I try my very best to make realistic claims.

      Each people to there very own marketing methods, I might even start to make these wild claims some day in a bid to play for the big $ because lets be honest, it does work for the seller.
      Don't ever compromise yourself for anything, no amount of money can repair your name, Be honest, take care of your customers, produce solid content. do not worry about what your neighbour is doing but don't be like them if it is wrong.

      Apparently the "host" of the webinar was doing what is called Positioning, perhaps you should not listen to other people and worry about your own business, even if it was true which it is not you would be obligated to produce top quality so people have a viable alternative

      Some folks create crap and leave out things, sure, but you can't lump everyone together nor can you take what is said as fact, I know that there are many quality products I have gotten, reviewed, or seen. so I cannot agree they are positioned to make you fail, or they leave out steps, the thing is NO ONE is going to do everything for you, so instead of looking for answers in products , spend the time to learn, study, and Apply that knowledge and make a difference yourself.
      cheers
      -WD
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I think this has subject has been talked about so much that I can't even think of a clever way to say this is unneeded.

    You make me sad.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail.
      Let me guess... At the end, the "host" was trying to sell you on an "IM" product?

      Here's a hint: Every 'guru-killer' is a wannabe guru in drag.

      They pretend to be something they're not, in the hope that you won't notice and will follow them, instead of whoever they claim to be trying to save you from. When you finally discover the lie, they hope you'll be too ashamed to say anything to anyone else.

      Question everyone, choose your own risks, and don't believe anyone in a white robe.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Let me guess... At the end, the "host" was trying to sell you on an "IM" product?

        Here's a hint: Every 'guru-killer' is a wannabe guru in drag.


        Paul
        Exquisite. You're in good form lately.

        Products aren't designed to fail... people are wired to fail. society and preconceived perceptions does that to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hostpany
    Most are. Yes, I'm not sure the exact percentage though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Royce Space
    Hahaha. This make me laugh. Sorry, but this is wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author ColinT
    I can understand that some products leave a liittle bit of content out hence the need to upgrade OTO`s etc but I dont think any programme is "designed to fail" per say
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  • Profile picture of the author MakeMoneyJames
    What was he selling on the webinar?

    Its just a ploy on peoples emotions to make it seem like "its not your fault".

    In reality , it has more to do with the person than the product. Because really, you don't need an IM product to be succesful in IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ed Micah
    I'd say, most of them are. However it really depends on how designed them, some might fail a really big time, but the others you make tons!
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Products don't fail. People fail to make business models work. There's a big difference. As for gurus, there ain't no stinkin' gurus.

    It seems people that think gurus sit around and plot ways to rip off dopey newbs. I love it when people open their sales copy with stuff like:

    Dirty Little Secrets The Gurus
    Don't Want You To Know!

    Hehehe... right.

    Here's an amazing statistic I discovered back in the early 90s at a real estate seminar. I was hanging out at the back of the room where the gurus sold their poisonous products to the suckers (). I asked the guy selling the stuff if he had any stats on how many people were successful with the how-to products.

    He said he'd been in the seminar business for over 20 years and had seen several success studies done. Only 3% of the people who bought a course ever made any money. He said only 10% even bothered to listen to the material past the first tape. Yeah, this was back when info products were mainly put out on cassettes.

    But look at those numbers. I once listened to a guy who produced info products on tape. He was trying to motivate the audience to take intelligent action.

    He said he'd recently put out a product and had sold 250 tape sets. Then he found out that the second tape in the set was blank. But after almost six months of sales he'd only had two complaints out of 250 sales. Pretty telling if you ask me.

    So what's the point? It ain't products that are the problem. It's people who are more in love with the idea of wealth and success than what it actually takes to make it happen. That's the problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    no this is not true. Now there are some crappy IM product and there are some killer ones also.

    The reason people fail is not information, the reason people fail is due to lack of taking action or being lazy. I was one of them, tis funny that I did not make a single dollar online till I started takin action.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ian Andrews
    I think the big problem here is the people actually buying the products failing to implement them. Most people (and I am sticking my hand up here as a guilty party) tend to succumb to the Shiny New Object Syndrome. You start working on something and you end up getting distracted by the constant barrage of SNO emails bombarding your inbox. Its obvious you are going to see some that look good so you buy one or more then you get sidetracked checking that new product out. By the time you have got part way through it becomes too hard or another SNO takes your attention away.

    Seriously, the only way out of that maze of confusion is to sit down and work out who you believe is ethical and has good, solid information products or software that actually works. Check the products or people out in the Warrior Forum BEFORE you buy. Delete the people that promote rubbish and block them from your email list. Block the ones that are just bombing your email account all the time. Then pick out the truly valuable strategies and get to work.
    TAKE ACTION.....FOCUS.....the results will come.
    The alternative is to keep jumping from product to product or strategy to strategy and never achieve anything. Either that or you will end up with zero balance in your bank account, credit cards maxed out and it all gets too hard.
    Most people in that situation will just give up and forget about the business of IM.
    Of course there are a load of rubbish products out there. Products that give bad advice. Products that will land you in trouble with Google. Products that are just plain garbage and don't work.
    Get off the treadmill before its too late and focus on implementing a good solid strategy and you will start to make money. If you just keep chasing the latest product and hoping it is the Goose that lays Golden Eggs will never amount to anything.
    Trust me.....been there, done that!!! The money you waste on buying stuff all the time is better spent on outsourcing and actually getting results.
    Just sayin'
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    • Profile picture of the author PrestonPilgrim
      I woul think most of them are, but some will be goldmines. Its just a matter of finding that gold mine.
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  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
    Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

    I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail. They never produce the results that they say on the salespage, because if the did then it would not be necessary to purchase the next launch. So if you make $10, you think "Wow, this really works I made $10" and buy the next product. What do you guys think?

    I wonder what he was selling after the webinar....

    I could list a whole lot of "IM Products" that were designed to succeed and do so quite well.

    Was he more specific or just generally whacking around with a big broad brush?

    Here are some terrific "IM Products" that were successfully designed not to fail.

    Market Samurai - A great tool that saves lots of time in analyzing keywords and doing competition research. Not only is it designed not to fail, it gets updated regularly to keep abreast of Google changes.

    Warrior Forum - With one-time fee of $47 it can't be said that the WF Membership is a poor product designed to fail. In fact a lot of IMers make a living on WF alone.

    WordPress - A boon to IMers not only is this product very successful, it is free.

    CamTasia - You may argue that this is not an IM Product, but I'll bet 90% of the users are in Marketing or selling to the IM market.

    Anyway- there is an endless list of successful IM products so without a more specific complaint about a product it is hard to take such generalizations seriously.

    And you can see by the number of people following Amazon WSOs who are doing quite well, that those courses are successful for those that take action. Both Dan Brock and Jan Roos have very comprehensive courses to get you started with Amazon. That success has been replicated by multiple students.

    These "all IM products are scams" threads are started all the time- usually by people who haven't made any effort to implement a proven system.

    Mahlon
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    yep, all 7 billion people on earth are out to get you. natural selection is a bit**.

    in all seriousness though, i do believe it is a fact that most people in the IM game are only in the IM game (most dont make money outside of IM). which means they may or may not know IM, but they do earn their money by selling IM products.

    of course that brings into question their motives. i can say this. most IM product developers create products with #1 priority being their ability to make money with them since it is after all their way of making money. that does not mean they are doing anything wrong, but it does mean that their priorities are probably not as pure as you would like them to be.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    I definitely don't think this is the case. While i'll admit, some IM products just plain don't work, there are many others that are wonderful and do exactly what they say they will. I've purchased several WSO's that have been nothing but value for me.

    Are there some unethical marketers who may practic the "mechanic syndrome" (when you bring your car in to be fixed, they break something to get back)? sure. But the majority are ethical, and woul dhave nothing to gain by selling a product that doesn't work.

    I know that most would rather be known for selling products that provide extreme value.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

      It was a webinar for one of those $1,000 softwares.
      Well there is your answer right there. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author viffer211
      Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

      It was a webinar for one of those $1,000 softwares.
      LOL - In which case it will be designed to be extremely difficult to refund (payment will be done through SWREG) and to make you think that you've failed because it won't work.

      BUT WAIT...3 COPIES LEFT....NO, BUT WAIT....MY BROTHER PHONED AND THERE'S ONLY 1 COPY LEFT....NO, THE CIA ARE AT THE DOOR...THERE'S REALLY 1 COPY LEFT, IT'S GOT TO GO.....

      Then the next day comes....'webinar replay....only 15 copies left'.....

      And it goes on and on in a sad little cycle of fraud, fantasy and failure.
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    • Profile picture of the author onSubie
      Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

      It was a webinar for one of those $1,000 softwares.
      So the guy "warning" buyers about products "designed to fail" was flogging a $1,000 "make money on autopilot" software solution?

      Good grief.

      Those are the classic "designed to fail" products. People buy them thinking the software is all they need and it looks all whiz-cool in the sales webinar and demo.

      Then you get it and realize that to use it effectively you still need to find a niche, do keyword research, find a domain and all the other stuff that goes into setting up an Internet business before you install a web site.

      Well, maybe his solution is different.

      Mahlon
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  • Profile picture of the author mwoolerymedia
    I completely agree. I am an expert in a few IM and Product developement fields and plan to promote pdfs and how to videos on things I have experience with. Iwill not ever have a WSO stating some outlandish claims like some that Ive seen. Its very discouraging to newbies which I am here in WF. The ones that get hurt or burned are the one that have no experience at all and believe everything they read..
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  • Profile picture of the author RobKonrad
    There's a good quote:

    "It's not information overload, it's filter failure".

    There's a lot of crap out there. There's a lot of excellent stuff out there. It's up to you to get informed and chose. You might even get some valuable pieces of information out of "crappy" procuts.

    It's all about what YOU do with it...
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  • Profile picture of the author Awesomo
    Definitely not true! It really depends on the product. I'm currently working for an Internet Marketing company and we buy loads of WSOs, softwares and plugins to test them.

    It's really trial and error and also how relevant it is to your website/niche. Different niche will have different ways of marketing.

    Having said that, some are good but some are crap. Mostly crap actually

    But when we hit on a 'goldmine' then it's "woot"!
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  • Profile picture of the author Miguelito203
    Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

    I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail. They never produce the results that they say on the salespage, because if the did then it would not be necessary to purchase the next launch. So if you make $10, you think "Wow, this really works I made $10" and buy the next product. What do you guys think?
    There are some quality programs and ethical marketers out there, but lots of times, they are overshadowed by the crappy programs and fast - talking, unethical marketers. I've noticed that a lot of people tend to look at making money online as some kind of magic button. It isn't until they have been scammed a few times that they are ready to take a real go at things.

    Joey
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  • Profile picture of the author hodari
    When I first saw the title of this thread I had a flashback to my CUTCO knife selling days. It was there that I first heard the term "planned obsolescence". Designing something that has a limited useful life. In my case back then it was me talking about knives that are designed to go dull.

    But in the case of IM products that is not the case all the time. A better phrase would be that some technique taught in IM products are short lived. The other ones may not be designed to fail. However the creator may not be the greatest in explaining his method. Letting you in on the nuance.

    But I would say they are not "all" made to fail. Case in point, I purchased a wso almost two years ago about selling on tradebit. It was very inexpensive and very short. But ya know what ? He told enough for me to make my money back in a week. And even now to this day I get a odd sale or two from that site. And I have not touched it in forever.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

    I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail.
    Designed? No. But definitely expected to fail.

    See, I used to sell a product called Zombie Blogging. I designed this product with John Schwartz, a true AdSense guru, and personally proved that with two hours of work I could generate a passive income that went on for several months. All you had to do was follow the instructions.

    Then I sold it to a couple hundred people, who promptly went


    and completely ignored the instructions.

    Most of them failed to make much, if any, money. A lot of them demanded and got refunds. And a number of angry emails showed up in my inbox which said some variant of:
    "I did exactly what you told me not to do, and Google did exactly what you told me they'd do if I did that! IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!"
    And there's not a damn thing you can do about this stuff.

    Look, the only thing I can do is tell you what to do. You're the one who has to do it. And most people are too lazy, stupid, or dishonest to do that.

    Plus, you can't win on the price.

    If you put a low price on the product, you get a lot of idiot customers who aren't making any money and won't do the work, and people go "if it works, why is it so cheap?"

    If you put a high price on the product, the people who actually need it can't afford it, and people go "if he really wanted to help, he would price it more reasonably."

    I have had complaints that my products are too cheap to be any good at $67, and complaints that they are too expensive to help anyone at $27. So clearly my products need to cost more than $67 but less than $27, but unfortunately I do not live in Bizarro-world so that's just too bad.

    See, the fact is, you can't win. No matter how good your products are, your customers will bork it up. And no matter what price you put on them, it will be wrong.

    So a lot of marketers just... give up. They stop trying. They stop working. After all, the refund and complaint rates are about the same for your three-month labour of love as they are for a two-hour piece of garbage you farted out without even testing anything, and you can charge pretty much the same price either way.

    And those marketers can only live with themselves and what they do by continually insisting that everyone does it.

    Except we don't. Only the lazy ones do. Some of us produce quality because quality is the only thing worth producing. Yes, it's inefficient. Because efficiency is bad for people you care about. And since we care about our customers, we don't really give a crap how efficient it is.

    Products aren't designed to fail. It's just that most of them aren't designed at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sue McDonald
    You have to be very astute when buying products online and yes the rate of people that buy product and they never use it. They may start but it all seems too hard and then they put it on the shelf.

    There are some products out there that are flawed. Why would you believe that some multimillionaire is going to sell you all his secrets for $97 or $47. Think about it - would you buy the product.

    There are some good products that people do not ever use after they buy them. It really depends on your own knowledge and where you are at in the IM world. As a newbie, if you buy something that is way over your head - you will take years to learn enough to profit from your purchase.

    Think carefully before buying anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author dkbiz92
    i created my WSO out of all my experience and put my heart and soul into the product so much that i forgot about the sales page (stupid move) no one bought my book because the sales page was shotty and didn't look nice but i designed my course to succeed. Most marketers do design them to "fail".....the key is finding one that give good products consistently.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

    If these guys were really making big money as they claim, what makes you think they're gonna tell you exactly how they do it?
    Why wouldn't they?

    Seriously, think about it. Why wouldn't I tell you exactly what I do to make money?

    Imagine that you have a job working as the executive VP of a bank. Someone walks up and say "hey, what do you do?" at some party or other.

    Are you going to look around like a paranoid freak and make something up?

    No! You're going to say "why, I am the executive VP of humping small business in the butt with exorbitant interest rates at Shove It Up Your Arse First Trust and Federal Reserve."

    Why would it be any different for a guru?

    "Hey, Tony Robbins! What do you do for a living?"

    "Um, I, um, REAL ESTATE! Yeah! That's the ticket! I buy and sell real estate! Wholesale! On the um, foreclosure market! Yep! That's what I do!"

    Pfft. Please. He's going to tell you exactly what he does.

    Why? Because you can't do it. Same thing with the executive VP job up there. I tell people exactly what I do, over and over, right to their face, and they... don't do it.

    Why? Because


    that's why.

    People in general are SLIM: Selfish, Lazy, Ignorant, and Mean. They want the money, but they won't do the work, don't understand why they have to, and think anyone who has the money ought to be punished.

    Hence, the "Occupy" movement.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

      Telling someone your job title and revealing the exact methods you use to achieve phenomenal results are two different things.
      Why?

      You've got a massive flaw in your thinking here, and I'm digging it up so you can see it. You can go along with it, or not. I don't make any more or less money either way.

      There's a very important piece of wisdom in there.

      I'm pretty sure these guys you're referencing in the example aren't the ones writing books, promising people they can make an overnight fortune using their "blueprint."
      I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about gurus, not scammers. You're right, scammers won't tell you what they do to make money, because that would involve saying "I lie to you and take your money."

      People that actually make money by doing real business don't have time to write books about how to make money unless your name is Jim Straw.
      What makes Jim so special?

      Face the music, dude.
      Back at you, buddy. The only thing all of your failed business efforts have in common is you.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

        But you notice that those people never promise the reader anything?
        Um... yes they do.

        I happen to have next to me right now the Bern Schmitt and Alex Simonson classic "Aesthetic Marketing." Let's open it up and read the cover blurb about it.

        Schmitt and Simonson describe how a firm can use these tools strategically to create a variety of sensory experiences that will (1) ensure customer satisfaction and loyalty; (2) sustain lasting customer impressions about a brand's or organization's special personality; (3) permit premium pricing; (4) provide legal "trade dress" protection from competitive attacks; (5) lower costs and raise productivity; (6) most importantly, create irresistible appeal.
        That's a half dozen promises in what is damn near a bulleted list.

        What makes Mr. Straw so special? Maybe it's the fact that the guy has done actual business before most of us were even born
        1. Darklock Communications has been in business for over 25 years. That's before an awful lot of the people in this forum were born.

        2. Most of my best coaches are younger than me, and some are barely half my age. That frees their perspective from the antiquated thinking that frequently gets in my way.

        and wrote about making money AFTER he'd gotten rich.
        1. I write about doing business and making products, both of which I've done before I ever wrote about them.

        2. I don't think anyone should be writing about "making money," because that's kind of like writing about "falling asleep." You make money because you've done good work, just like you fall asleep because you're tired.

        That's a lot different from someone who writes a book specifically about how to get rich
        The only person I know who writes about this is Donald Trump, who most certainly didn't get rich teaching people how.
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Most of them failed to make much, if any, money. A lot of them demanded and got refunds. And a number of angry emails showed up in my inbox which said some variant of:
          "I did exactly what you told me not to do, and Google did exactly what you told me they'd do if I did that! IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!"
          And there's not a damn thing you can do about this stuff.
          Caliban, you need some kind of warning graphic when you post stuff like this. Now I have to go Google "how to get coffee out of a keyboard"...
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Caliban, you need some kind of warning graphic when you post stuff like this.
            I thought


            was pretty clear.
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
              Banned
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              I thought


              was pretty clear.
              I get the feeling that this graphic caused John's spilled coffee. It certainly accounts for my ruined shirt (I don't think this smoothie is coming off of it).
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Funny how having an opinion so quickly becomes having the "right" opinion

              I've known some smart people in marketing and in other fields that gave you PART of the info in each product by design - because it was a more efficient way to teach. In marketing, some do it because it's a more lucrative way to teach. It's called a "series" and is a valid way to create and sell products.

              They never produce the results that they say on the salespage
              Alert, Will Robinson! Products NEVER produce results!!!! Ever!!! Results come from effort....effort comes from you!

              People that are actually making money business usually wouldn't waste their time selling information on how to make money.
              Many of them do sell information about how they built their business, how they structure their business, how they manage their business. What you don't see are books telling you how to replicate their business.

              Much of what you see here is "how to make a buck" or "I think if you do this you might make a buck and I KNOW if you buy this I WILL make a buck".

              But there are different audiences, too. I prefer a novel with a twist, complex plot - others might like comic books. Both are products. It's not that difficult to tell which is which.

              kay
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              Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Keith
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Many of them do sell information about how they built their business, how they structure their business, how they manage their business. What you don't see are books telling you how to replicate their business.

                Much of what you see here is "how to make a buck" or "I think if you do this you might make a buck and I KNOW if you buy this I WILL make a buck".

                kay
                i think this is probably the key point. very few products actually teach people how to replicate their results.

                in my mind this is because most of these guys are full time IMers. which means they really only know how to market to other IMers. Thus they teach "how to succeed at IM". but that is not very good advice to suggest to someone else who has not had success at IM to achieve success by marketing to other IMers. its a weird loop that people get trapped into.

                the rest of their advice about marketing to other niches is often times just theory since they only operate in the IM niche.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

          Actually, Donald Trump rents out his name. He himself doesn't write the books. A ghostwriter puts the books together and uses his name and image.
          Aaaaaaaand that has what, exactly, to do with the fact that none of the gurus are writing "how to get rich" books?

          I'm gonna let you think what you want. But the fact is: I'm not interested in learning anything.
          Fixed that for you
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author SeoSarah
            I always stick to the rule: If something sounds to good to be true, it probably is. Combine that with some common sense and you will most likely not fall for scams.
            There are indeed some good IM products and like others already said, not every product that doesn't work for somebody is bad in general. If someone fails to implement what a guru taught him, how's that the guru's fault?
            But to be honest, nobody can deny there's also a lot of bs around.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

            I told you exactly what it has to do with it...that Donald Trump himself didn't write the books. Are you really that numb in the brain that you couldn't understand that?
            Well, the point was that Donald Trump is the only person I know selling a book about how to get rich, and he was rich before he wrote it, and it wasn't from selling products about it. So I don't see how "he didn't write it" means anything. After all, he's still selling it.

            How does me speaking a well proven fact mean I don't want to learn anything?
            Oh, the part where you ignored everything I said except the bit about Donald Trump, where you completely missed the point.

            And by the way, what are YOU doing teaching people how to make money? Weren't you homeless while selling a product on how to make money?
            I do not sell and have never sold a product on how to make money, because I do not believe anybody can honestly and ethically create one.

            Yes, I was homeless for two weeks a couple months after my wife took my kids and left me. Then I moved into my parents' basement, where I still live two years later because I'm carrying about $65k in debt, $25k of which has to be paid before I can rent anything anywhere.

            Now, if you'd like to claim I don't know anything and can't teach anyone because I haven't been able to basically flush $25k down the toilet over the past two years, feel free.

            If you'd like to point at my $18k annual income during those two years and call me a loser or a failure, go right ahead.

            If you want to run around trying to discredit me for only making about $300 a month the past several months, hey, say what you want.

            But you can't say I hid it. And you can't say I lied about it. Because I didn't. I'd rather people know they can trust me, instead of thinking I'm something I'm not.

            What about you?

            Oh, wait.

            Michael Milken - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author David Keith
              Originally Posted by CDarklock


              I do not sell and have never sold a product on how to make money, because I do not believe anybody can honestly and ethically create one.
              i normally agree with your logic, but i have to disagree on this one.

              i think some of us who have made money online, offline, with real estate, stocks, and many other ways can create and sell products that can show people how to make money.

              but i agree with you to the point that we cant guarantee or even come close to guaranteeing other people will have the same success for a laundry list of reasons.

              an old saying about a horse and a pond comes to mind in this instance.

              you can lead a horse to water (teach techniques and give knowledge) but you cant make him drink (work / execute / think for himself).
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

                i think some of us who have made money online, offline, with real estate, stocks, and many other ways can create and sell products that can show people how to make money.
                It's a subtlety. You can show people how to do what you did or do to make money, and I certainly do that. But it's not actually how to make money.

                Several years ago, I built a successful software company that grossed $1.7 million a year. I could teach someone how to build a software company, but not how to make it successful or how to make seven figures. And if you're not trying to build a software company, there's a good solid chance that whatever kind of company you ARE trying to build is nothing at all like building a software company, so I wouldn't be able to help you.

                Most people generalise too much. They think all businesses are the same, and to an extent they are. Supply chain management is about the same for pretty much any business that ships manufactured items; I know because I've managed the SCM infrastructure projects for over a dozen major manufacturing companies. But once you get outside the specifics of the SCM, things get very different, so you have to fence off the SCM - or whatever system you're looking at - before it gets to the variable parts.

                But hey, I'm not a $180k software project manager anymore. What do I know?
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                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                • Profile picture of the author David Keith
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  It's a subtlety. You can show people how to do what you did or do to make money, and I certainly do that. But it's not actually how to make money.

                  Several years ago, I built a successful software company that grossed $1.7 million a year. I could teach someone how to build a software company, but not how to make it successful or how to make seven figures. And if you're not trying to build a software company, there's a good solid chance that whatever kind of company you ARE trying to build is nothing at all like building a software company, so I wouldn't be able to help you.

                  Most people generalise too much. They think all businesses are the same, and to an extent they are. Supply chain management is about the same for pretty much any business that ships manufactured items; I know because I've managed the SCM infrastructure projects for over a dozen major manufacturing companies. But once you get outside the specifics of the SCM, things get very different, so you have to fence off the SCM - or whatever system you're looking at - before it gets to the variable parts.

                  But hey, I'm not a $180k software project manager anymore. What do I know?
                  i guess your saying the book i bought on training dogs is probably not going to help me train my cat. i understand your point, but whos fault is it that i bought a dog training book to figure out how to teach my cat?

                  my point is that there are definitely proven techniques that work for building different businesses. but those facts in one business model are merely just theories for success when applied to other business models.

                  but to say that someone cant create a product that can actually teach a big majority of what one needs to do to make money online is not very accurate.

                  but for the IM industry, thats where IMers essentially trap their customers into the loop. they only teach how to be an IMer because thats all most of these guys know.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

                    i guess your saying the book i bought on training dogs is probably not going to help me train my cat. i understand your point, but whos fault is it that i bought a dog training book to figure out how to teach my cat?
                    Well, not exactly. What I'm saying is more along the lines of when you've successfully trained dogs, it's irresponsible to release a book on "Successful Animal Training" when your methods don't work on cats, birds, monkeys, and tigers.

                    but to say that someone cant create a product that can actually teach a big majority of what one needs to do to make money online is not very accurate.
                    That's not what I said. I said I don't believe you can ethically and honestly create a product on how to make money. You can create the product you just described above and CALL it a product on how to make money, but it's really not.

                    I think it's possible to create a product that teaches how to do all the pieces in the chain that lead to making money, and I've created products intended to be exactly that - but that chain still isn't making money. If you were teaching people to make a clock, you can't call it a product about keeping time, because it's not. It's about making a machine that keeps time.

                    they only teach how to be an IMer because thats all most of these guys know.
                    They only teach how to be an IMer here because that's all most of these people buy.

                    Don't mistake what people do here for the only thing they ever do anywhere. Most of the successful people in this forum are nowhere near the IM community - they don't sell a single IM or "make money" product at all, and probably never will.

                    Those of us who are in the IM community and only the IM community are a tiny, tiny minority. We're louder than everyone else here, sure... because this is kind of our job. But that doesn't make us the whole community.
                    Signature
                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Wilson
    Use your common sense: NO-ONE will tell you their precious "secrets" for $10 or even $30 (the usual price for WSO).

    Why did I use quotation marks for secrets? Because there is no secret that will make your business a success over night. Sale pages promise just that to get higher conversions. But a good business always stands on foundations of trust and relationship with your customers.

    Daniel
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    -25% WF PROMO CODE: "WFPROMO911" (expires on 1.1.2012)
    - High search volume keywords , high CPC keywords, easy to rank keywords
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Daniel Wilson View Post

      a good business always stands on foundations of trust and relationship with your customers.
      The irony is that this is one of those "secrets" people sell for $10 and $30 in the WSO forum.

      My friend Dave Hughes is selling one about exactly this - but instead of just saying "foundations," he explains how to lay those foundations in a productive way. (It's called "Superfriends of Success.") It's not one sentence at the end of a cynical "why bother" post.

      Now, it's up to you whether you want to sit here and let Daniel Wilson tell you some vague platitude about "it's about X," or go to the WSO forum and throw a few bones at someone who will teach you X.

      But which one do you think is going to matter in your business?

      I mean, honestly, is it news that this is all about trust and relationships? Are you surprised that people who know, like, and trust you will pay you more money more often?

      It's not the what that is worth money. It's the how. And the people running around trying to buy the "what" are always going to be angry and cynical about it, because they already know that part.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

    I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail. They never produce the results that they say on the salespage, because if the did then it would not be necessary to purchase the next launch. So if you make $10, you think "Wow, this really works I made $10" and buy the next product. What do you guys think?
    No, they are sold by people who are more interested in making money selling them, then actually testing the method sustainability long run.

    As for buying next product. If someone sells me a product that makes me a lot more money, I will be back. I attended a $2,000 training earlier this year, it added $8,400 to my bottom line, so I attended another $2,000 training. It was by someone who was proven and showed results.

    Having this discussion (I am guilty) is just wasting time from getting results

    Cheers,
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    I can't speak for anyone else but I prefer my customers to succeed so they have more money to buy my next launch. What good are a bunch of broke customers?
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    As many others said much more eloquently than I, "Products don't fail... People do!!"
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    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

    I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail. They never produce the results that they say on the salespage, because if the did then it would not be necessary to purchase the next launch. So if you make $10, you think "Wow, this really works I made $10" and buy the next product. What do you guys think?
    I think that's how Apple became so successful.

    I think you were listening to a moron who knows nothing about business, sales, or logic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Saito
    Absolutely ridiculous.

    If I get a course on SEO and it works when I apply it, are you saying that I couldn't then buy a course on PPC because the first one worked?

    No, it would be a second set of results on top of my existing results, in the form of more money coming in.

    Is valuable information helpful? How could it not be. This topic is useless.
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  • Profile picture of the author rooze
    This has been an interesting thread.

    It reminds me just how incestuous the IM community is. IM 'ers create 'offers' to appeal to people in a specific mindset - the mindset of the typical Internet Marketer. They're programmed differently than most people. The majority have absolutely no business acumen whatsoever and have absolutely no clue what to do to work for themselves. So the only way to appeal to them and separate them from their cash, is to promise a dream, pie in the sky. Internet marketers end up selling to people on the same premise that they bought into the community in the first place....hence the incest. They're breeding a new species and it's growing rapidly, spreading like a virus through the online world. They communicate in their own language and use the style of marketing copy that is simply shunned outside of their own community (Think big, bold fonts, wild unsubstantiated claims, etc). The 'footprint' of the Internet Marketer is like that of the Sasquatch, big and deep and visible from a mile off, only a lot less rare.

    I've been in business management for around 25 years and prior to that received my theory from a renowned Business School/University in the UK. A couple years ago I wrote a 200 page book to try and coach people into building a web business on a solid foundation. I sold my first copy on Kindle and immediately the $2.99 was refunded. I can imagine the person who bought it was someone getting into Internet Marketing, and was totally underwhelmed by the logic and common sense presentation of the content.

    It's a sad, sad world.

    Happy Holidays.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by rooze View Post

      I've been in business management for around 25 years and prior to that received my theory from a renowned Business School/University in the UK. A couple years ago I wrote a 200 page book to try and coach people into building a web business on a solid foundation. I sold my first copy on Kindle and immediately the $2.99 was refunded. I can imagine the person who bought it was someone getting into Internet Marketing, and was totally underwhelmed by the logic and common sense presentation of the content.

      It's a sad, sad world.

      Happy Holidays.

      LOL

      Your mistake was probably showing them something that they did not want to see:







      :p
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by Michael Milken View Post

    Of course they are designed to fail. If these guys were really making big money as they claim, what makes you think they're gonna tell you exactly how they do it? People really can't be that gullible. It's all one big circle. A person pays for one course, tries it and it doesn't work. Then they move on to the next, and the next, and the next. The only guys making money are the ones selling the *how to make big money like me* products.
    As I posted earlier in this thread. Only 3% of people buying MMO stuff or any how-to-make-money info actually make money. And that's because they're more in love with the idea of wealth and success than what it actually takes to make it happen.

    Most successful people are more than happy to tell you what they do. And to prove the point, check this out. It's a blueprint from an Internet marketing multi millionaire:

    The Truth About Abs: How To Make $1,000,000 Per Month with Digital Products (Plus: Noah Kagan results)
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  • Profile picture of the author rhinocl
    Look at it like 10,000 junior high students being taught how to be football place kickers. One will make a career of it in the NFL. A hundred will get to college with football scholarships. The rest will 'fail'. Does that mean the instruction was designed to make them fail?
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  • Profile picture of the author vivi62
    I.M. should be approached as a business not a get rich quick scheme,those who succeed set up businesses and build from there.
    Regards
    vivi62
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  • Profile picture of the author richrowley
    I dont know if any are designed to fail or designed to make you fail.

    What I do know is that a lot of sales letters and sales videos state that 'other products are designed to make you fail' so that theres looks like the one thats going to show you the light.

    Its like a similar technique thats used by people to portray authority. Oddly enough people do it with books, movies, music, politics etc etc.

    For example take one movie that everyone loves, then imagine being the only person that turns around and says 'nope that movie is below average because the casting wasn't right, the lighting gradients didnt match and the story line dragged in the 87th minute'. You'd look like the movie boffin right? The knowledgeable guy who knows something the masses dont.

    It works just the same in IM niche when sales copy or a 'guru' says 'I know you all think X but thats because guys in the know understand Y'

    Check out a product and test it yourself, thats the only way. Having said all that.....yup lots of products are pure tripe!
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Originally Posted by Legend Dude View Post

    I was listening to a webinar where the host was explaining how IM products are designed to fail. They never produce the results that they say on the salespage, because if the did then it would not be necessary to purchase the next launch. So if you make $10, you think "Wow, this really works I made $10" and buy the next product. What do you guys think?
    I think the biggest flaw in this is the exclusion of one word. It should be:

    "Is it true SOME IM products are designed to fail?"

    Take away the absolute, and you come closer to the truth.

    If this pitch followed the path I've grown accustomed to seeing, the next step after buying the $1k software is a "free coaching session" conducted by a high-pressure telemarketer, designed to get you to commit to a much larger private coaching program or private membership site, with price based on the estimated open to buy on your credit card or on a quick review of your credit report.

    If you hesitate, the "coach" goes into full assault mode, accusing you of wasting his time (and it's always a 'he'), of not being serious about your business, of wanting to fail, being dumb and clueless and ungrateful for the opportunity being presented.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    What I got out of this thread is these 2 exceptional insights...

    Every 'guru-killer' is a wannabe guru in drag.


    "It's not information overload, it's filter failure"

    If this thread was an IM product I had Just bought, with all the nonsense and red herrings and failure conspiracys.

    Those 16 words alone will make me a sizable income. they sparked at least one product idea and a possible 2nd

    I've been making a full-time living online since 2000. That's ten solid years. In that time, I’ve learned a lot through observation and experimentation. And I also quickly realized that –
    the reason most people fail is because they expect not to have to think for themselves

    observe, listen, experiment. Can't be taught

    But it is an unwritten expectation of every product producer out there...That the person buying the product isnt a zombie, and that they are expected to take the information and forge it to their own needs
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  • Profile picture of the author dennis19601
    There's a lot of good advice here and some folks have obviously caught there share of B.S. and shiny new whatever it happened to be. I can't believe anyone designs something to fail as suggested, I think that's just someone trying to promote that there's is better than all the rest, the new secret shiny thing, whatever.As many others here have said, ignore the hype and develop a plan, a system or find someone who has a good one and follow it, but be prepared to work and dedicate some time, most folks simply won't focus and do what they know in there heart they need to do!

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  • Profile picture of the author hotboy18
    I think many people fail to take time and learn the skills that the product teaches then give up to find something easier. Some internet products may just provide you with a little information then create another upsell that tell you a little more so you can spend for money. I can say that there are some reputable products out that teach you the real, long terms skill to be a successful internet marketer so every product is not meant to be a failure.
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  • Profile picture of the author RySpencer
    If people aren't going to follow any advice from the thousands of digital products that they are going to read before they go broke, then that is their fault.

    There are many good "IM" products out there that tell people how to succeed. There are also many "self help" books out there for people who need help. I feel there are equal amount of people who fail no matter what advice or what product it is.

    Something that is designed to fail: Your built in China, bought at Wal-Mart vacuum, the same month it falls out of warranty
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    i dont know what percentage, but i do think most people who teach IM do in fact make most of their money from IM.

    i have watched this industry for over 15 years. i have been to countless conferences and such. and most of the guys teaching IM are in fact only in the IM niche. i am not just talking about WF folks. i am talking IM in general.

    the truth of the matter is that most of us who are not in the IM niche, make way more money than those who are in the IM niche with far less headaches. which is a major reason why many of the best of the best IM guys never enter the IM niche at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author A8ch
    I think the webinar host misspoke! What marketer in their right mind intentionally puts out a product expecting it to fail?

    I can just imagine the thought process: I'm going to launch a product that's no good, and then a few months later I'll promote another no-good product to the same people who bought the original product and make a killing.

    I doubt there would be anything left of his or her reputation after word got out.

    Would you buy a second product from who someone who ripped you off before? I don't think so!

    Hermas
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    http://HermasHaynes.com - Web Marketing - Simple & Direct
    http://www.OnlineListBuildingFormula.com - How to Build a Super Responsive List Fast!
    http://www.eBizInfoProducts.com - Prosper with Info Products
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by A8ch View Post

      Would you buy a second product from who someone who ripped you off before? I don't think so!
      Unfortunately, I've done exactly this.

      I bought a product from a marketer that was garbage. I went "well, he's got a great reputation, this must be a fluke."

      So I bought another of his garbage products. And I went "damn, bad luck, what are the odds?"

      And then I bought another. That's when I went "wait a minute, those people who rave about him are just stupid and full of crap."

      It would be nice if these were just $10 and $20 products, but... well... they weren't.

      I like to think I'm not incredibly stupid, so I have to believe this happens to other reasonably intelligent people on occasion, too.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    On a side note, CD...

    If you make $300 per month and create a product about it... what's wrong with that?

    As long as you're not exaggerating the income. Where does one draw the line of qualification to create such a product?

    AFAIAC... you are just as qualified, if not more than the next guy to teach how to make money the way you do. Then it's up to me as to how much I ramp it up.

    Nice wiki-find by the way.
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    Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
    You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I bring good news from the IAAIMG (I AM AN INTERNET MARKETING GOD) committee. Side note: Internally we despise the term guru and those that use it when GOD (capitalized) is more appropriate.

    We have seen this thread as well as others and have just voted to stop creating and publishing the DTF (Designed To Fail) products. Instead we will focus more on the GMW (Get More Worshippers) products.

    The vote was pretty much along "party lines". GOD P, Q, and G put up a fight because they already have a DTF promotion started with launch here in a couple weeks so we gave them some leeway under the IAAGACDWIWTD (I Am a GOD and can do what I want to do) rule.

    In order to soften the impact, we are going to intersperse those 3 upcoming launches with the ones from GODs J, A, Z, and R. So out of the next 7 launches, only 3 will be DTF. Unfortunately our bylaws don't allow us to divulge more than that.

    GODs H, B, and M were pretty adamant about the DUD (Dud) line. These are NOT DTF products they argued. Upon further discussion and in accordance with what has been done in the past, DUD products will still be created and promoted.

    Many other GODs argued that this discussion was irrelevant because of the IDIOT (I Don't Implement Offered Training) rule which seems to be the real problem (except for the DTF line which will be discontinued).

    We believe that these changes should put an end to the bashing that we unjustly receive from the IDIOT crowd.

    All correspondence or questions regarding these changes can be addressed to our help desk at I//.A>AIMG{ { Su\ppo"""r**t.c?<@om. Just click the hyper link to contact one of our helpful representatives.
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