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Thinking Out Loud...WSO's/Products Being Shared Illegally...

by BIG Mike Banned
58 replies
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#illegally #loudwso or products #shared #thinking
  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
    I think it's a great idea, Mike. There would have to be a reporting mechanism in place for sure, although it would take some time to double check those before posting or whatever you did.

    I know when I come across products being shared/sold illegally, I try to contact the creator to let them know.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

    I know we all do our own thing, but I thought it might be nice to document strategies and the process to give away to members.
    In general, I think trying to fight pirates is a waste of time.

    However, if you are going to do it anyway, something that saves some of the time you were going to waste is a Good Thing. While I'd personally prefer that you invest none of your time in this, the decision of how to deal with it in your business is after all your own, and anything that can reduce the amount of time you invest in it can only benefit you and your customers.

    So you've got my support.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Sounds interesting. Might be interested. Want to tell you though that it is very easy to get your products off of Fiverr. I've done it several times. Just use the contact link and tell them the gig and offer proof that the product is yours. They normally take it down right away.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    A lot of the processes you need to happen here can be automated. That is why I think it a good thing that you are involved in the process.

    There are two sides to it:
    1. People selling our stuff; and
    2. People giving our stuff away.

    If sellers put their product info into a secure database, a cron scan of File Sharing sites could reveal a lot of the products that we are trying to protect.

    All we need to do is identify the product in the database, identify it on the file sharing sites / fiverr type sites, then automate delivery of take down notices.

    Even if there was a fee for this, I'd be interested, so long as it was not a huge fee.
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
    Wow, I could understand selling a service "using" your tools, but selling the tools themselves.

    I've taken advantage of enough of your holiday sales in the past to know that the buyer could buy the product legitimately for not much more...
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Barry Unruh View Post

      I've taken advantage of enough of your holiday sales in the past to know that the buyer could buy the product legitimately for not much more...
      A lot of people get mad about how Mike's affiliate program works because they're stupid and don't know how to deal with "Mike can have a sale but we can't" in their business. So Mike suffers a lot of deliberate efforts to damage his business for "stealing" people's commissions when he has a sale. It really has very little to do with potential customers wanting to pirate the products - it's mostly former affiliates wanting to hurt Mike's business.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Claire Koch
        i never understood why mike does that to his affiliate seems counter productive to me

        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        A lot of people get mad about how Mike's affiliate program works because they're stupid and don't know how to deal with "Mike can have a sale but we can't" in their business. So Mike suffers a lot of deliberate efforts to damage his business for "stealing" people's commissions when he has a sale. It really has very little to do with potential customers wanting to pirate the products - it's mostly former affiliates wanting to hurt Mike's business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Mike, sounds awesome. I am in.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    There is a great automated DMCA WSO product that I bought that makes it a snap to send out DMCAs with one click.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...aaaaazzzy.html
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    For as much as I believe in planning, I almost hate to admit this--but, this is the dark side of product creation that I was utterly unprepared for. On one hand, I've been taking the unauthorized wide dissemination of our product as a bit of a complement--I mean, doesn't the fact that people are willing to SHARE it mean that it's valuable, at least to some degree?

    Even still, I'm a bit tired of fighting a fight against this that I don't have the time or energy to fight.
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  • Profile picture of the author RobKonrad
    Sounds like Carl has already done what you had in mind:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...rs-piracy.html

    Cheers,
    Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author .X.
    Both of the products mentioned above
    are a nice start but there's still too
    much hands-on for my liking (especially
    with a monthly fee attached).

    I think Bill is on the right track with
    something that can handle this with an
    automated system.

    1. You enter your product and business
    information

    2. The system locates shared files

    3. The system sends out the appropriate
    message.

    I'd think Big Mike's crack programming
    team could put that together with
    ease - and I'd probably be happy to
    pay for the service (amazing no one
    offers this already).

    It might still require a pair of human
    eye balls but this is something that
    could be outsourced very reasonably.

    I agree with CD - this isn't worth *my*
    time but we should all do what we
    can to protect our products for the
    good of our business AND our customers.

    X
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I do think there are things that can be done to mitigate the sharing of such things. It will never be stopped, but we could up the pressure a whole lot.

    Of course, I am all for automation as well, but I think one of the bigger aspects of this is going to need to be the "show of solidarity" from IMers.

    When these sites get one or two notices from a few people, they may comply, but they don't take it too seriously.

    If however we were more organized with our efforts, we could put more pressure on the folks that run these sites.

    Also, along the same lines there would need to be some serious effort into removing as many of these files as possible from each site even when some of the product owners are not "on board" with this project.

    I am thinking its not going to do a whole lot of good if 10 of us got together to keep our stuff off of a few sites, but there are still hundreds of products being illegal shared that are never challenged from the same site.

    It is a huge problem, and one that can't truly be solved, but I do think a serious dent could be made with automation and a sense of solidarity.
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidTT
    well its the internet and unfortunately you cant have a product without getting it shared by someone. If you can download movies and games, a wso isnt much
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Another thought just came to mind.

    I think it might be worth the effort to try to get some higher profile coverage of someone getting sued for engaging in this behavior.

    Just like with image thefts, we all know you should not do it, but what prevents the majority of people from doing it is the publicized incidents of 10k lawsuits being filled.

    I see this problem a little like the issue of terrorism, you will never be able to stop it, but if you keep dropping bombs on the perpetrators it is a determent. Being proactive also make it much harder for people to organize such sites.

    without organization, even if someone does share your product, it will likely be with far less people.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      Another thought just came to mind.

      I think it might be worth the effort to try to get some higher profile coverage of someone getting sued for engaging in this behavior.

      Just like with image thefts, we all know you should not do it, but what prevents the majority of people from doing it is the publicized incidents of 10k lawsuits being filled.

      The biggest problem in that approach is country borders.

      The guy that ripped me off the hardest is based in India.

      That is not to say that all Indians are crooks. I am just saying that this one crook was an Indian.

      But when it comes to lawsuits and international borders, the job becomes more difficult and way more expensive, with little promise of gaining the desired results.

      I still think the easiest way to address this is cripple the crooks in their distribution efforts.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        I still think the easiest way to address this is cripple the crooks in their distribution efforts.
        This is precisely what SOPA is designed to make possible.

        Not trying to open a can of worms, here, but regardless of the abuses to which SOPA might conceivably lend itself (and there are plenty of them)... crippling the distribution of pirated material is precisely why SOPA provides for blacklisting non-US servers at the ISP level nationwide via court order.

        If the bill becomes law, it would become possible for a bunch of WSO authors and other product vendors to seek a court order against habitual offenders and cut off their US traffic entirely. And if we can't trust the government with that kind of power, who are we going to trust with it? A few industry volunteers?
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          This is precisely what SOPA is designed to make possible.

          Not trying to open a can of worms, here, but regardless of the abuses to which SOPA might conceivably lend itself (and there are plenty of them)... crippling the distribution of pirated material is precisely why SOPA provides for blacklisting non-US servers at the ISP level nationwide via court order.

          If the bill becomes law, it would become possible for a bunch of WSO authors and other product vendors to seek a court order against habitual offenders and cut off their US traffic entirely. And if we can't trust the government with that kind of power, who are we going to trust with it? A few industry volunteers?

          I will let other people play with the worms. :p

          I am not in favor at all of blocking entire IP's or countries from accessing my internet.

          I am simply suggesting a system that will automate the process of finding stolen products and sending take down notices to file sharing sites, etc.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            I am simply suggesting a system that will automate the process of finding stolen products and sending take down notices to file sharing sites, etc.
            How does that cripple the distribution network?
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author Hackbridge
              Nothing to do with IM of course, but I read in the news today that some hackers have started a space program so they can have their own internet free from goverments prying into their affairs. I'm sure I have the story wrong in many ways (reasons for doing so) but the point is that some people will go to great lenghts to circumvent paying or making money from someone else's hard work.

              For the record I hate thieves. The problem is that stopping digital theft isn't going to be easily stopped.

              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              How does that cripple the distribution network?
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      • Profile picture of the author David Keith
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        The biggest problem in that approach is country borders.

        The guy that ripped me off the hardest is based in India.

        That is not to say that all Indians are crooks. I am just saying that this one crook was an Indian.

        But when it comes to lawsuits and international borders, the job becomes more difficult and way more expensive, with little promise of gaining the desired results.

        I still think the easiest way to address this is cripple the crooks in their distribution efforts.
        Going by that logic, these people will just ignore the removal request because they know they are un-touchable from a practical standpoint as far as legal action goes.

        When the music business got hit with this, they did 3 main things

        1. They were very proactive once they realized it was a problem. (software can help us with that)

        2. They "made examples" out of some people. While they did take some heat for this, it did make a lot of people think twice about downloading free music

        3. They tried to organize and speak with one voice rather than 1,000's of artists complaining about each incident.

        I am well aware that probably billions of dollars worth of music are still being stolen, but they did slow the moment a lot. And they also face the same border legality issues.

        The music business also did a few other things that we can learn from, but I am getting tired of typing.

        To me, we can do a lot to fight this with automation and organizing our efforts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Stephens
    For PDFs I can remember seeing some software that you can use to ensure that your documents can not be copied and resold.

    All I can remember is it was a big name marketer from Vancouver Canada, I think who was selling it.

    It was uncrackable and basically authorised the use of a document for a specific computer, so if someone wanted to open it on a computer other than the one it was originally purchased and opened on, it sent a message and invoice to the person that has the illegal copy to purchase a copy. If they don't, the file will not open.

    Can't remember what it's called but it looked good.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by jeremy Stephens View Post

      For PDFs I can remember seeing some software that you can use to ensure that your documents can not be copied and resold.

      All I can remember is it was a big name marketer from Vancouver Canada, I think who was selling it.

      It was uncrackable and basically authorised the use of a document for a specific computer, so if someone wanted to open it on a computer other than the one it was originally purchased and opened on, it sent a message and invoice to the person that has the illegal copy to purchase a copy. If they don't, the file will not open.

      Can't remember what it's called but it looked good.

      That works really good except when the "phone home" computer does not respond.

      The option is putting a password on the document, which PDF files permit, but what if your customer loses the password? And what about the programmers in the world who know how to look at the PDF source code to bypass the password?

      There are no easy solutions.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by jeremy Stephens View Post

      It was uncrackable and basically authorised the use of a document for a specific computer, so if someone bought a new computer, it made them buy the product again.
      Fixed that for you.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Stephens
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Fixed that for you.
        No. Because IF you got a new computer, you can change the authorisation. You just need to contact the seller and it reauthorises a new copy.
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by jeremy Stephens View Post

          No. Because IF you got a new computer, you can change the authorisation. You just need to contact the seller and it reauthorises a new copy.

          And if the seller is out of business, you are up a creek.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Keith
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            And if the seller is out of business, you are up a creek.
            Yea, but IMers almost never go out of business, most of them are in it for the long haul...right?

            Just kidding guys
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by jeremy Stephens View Post

          You just need to contact the seller and prove you're not a thief.
          I just love doing that to my customers. Gives them that warm fuzzy feeling about buying from me again.
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    • Profile picture of the author unoentremil
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Stephens View Post

      and basically authorised the use of a document for a specific computer, so if someone wanted to open it on a computer other than the one it was originally purchased and opened on, it sent a message and invoice to the person that has the illegal copy to purchase a copy. If they don't, the file will not open.
      Hi Jeremy,

      The consequences of this ultra-defensive system are devastating for your loyal customers and should be considered. Nowadays all of us use different devices and computers.

      In my opinion, the best way to fight piracy is providing uncrackable value to your customers. Call it support, updates or whatever. Doing so it's even possible to gain customers from the dark side.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post


      Sounds like there's some good interest in this, so I'll keep checking back to the thread and make a list of those of you willing to help with it.
      NO, not another list, I don't want to be on another list. JK.

      This does seem like something we should try to get going. I am willing to do what I can to be a part of the solution.

      I hate just whining about problems, I feel much better about actually trying to solve them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
      Great, and much needed idea. Fighting the attitude that digital content is somehow free for the taking, simply because it exists only in 0s and 1s, will be much tougher. It will be easier to follow the music industry approach and leave a few corpses hanging by the side of the road as a deterrent.

      I'm in, especially if it can be automated.
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  • Profile picture of the author solarwarrior
    it is the best to nip the problem in the bud.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Seems like a lot of effort to go out of your way to step on the cockroches. They can't keep up with me anyway, so what do I care if they steal my old stuff and feed off the crumbs that are left?


    But yeah, as I'm sure you're aware Big Mike you can "Harden the Target" so that they go looking for easier carrion to feed off and leave your stuff alone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Webpromotion
    It's a real bad problem.

    But I do not see an end to it.

    Most companies when pricing their products put in a certain amount for loses due to theft.

    Even if you build a scraper that finds these products being shared.... what about torrents. Good luck with stopping those.

    The music industry with all it's unity and all of it's billions of dollars has not been able to stop piracy, what makes you think our industry can.


    The software industry had its shot at it. Remember dongles and protected software. It was broken back then and it still is being broken now. Software industry just gave in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      The biggest problem in that approach is country borders.

      The guy that ripped me off the hardest is based in India.

      That is not to say that all Indians are crooks. I am just saying that this one crook was an Indian.

      But when it comes to lawsuits and international borders, the job becomes more difficult and way more expensive, with little promise of gaining the desired results.

      I still think the easiest way to address this is cripple the crooks in their distribution efforts.
      Just because they are in another country doesn't mean they are untouchable. The United States has many bilateral copyright agreements in place that protect your copyrights in the participating company therefore one should not hesitate to send a DCMA notice.

      I just cite the agreement if I have to send a notice to some one in a different country.

      Bilateral copyright agreements of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      That's the list of countries. Note: India is on the list. = )

      Just recently I found my software "AGAIN" being offered on a very prominent forum with a certain colored hat in the name.

      This time I called the actual hosting company and as things turn out the gentleman who owns the hosting company insisted on being a forum moderator on this site in order to host the site. He logged in and instantly deleted the thread offering the free crack and download link and told me to call him any time I find my products on the forum.

      So sometimes taking the time to protect your business works out to our advantage!

      I like Mike's idea but I've sent quite a few DMCA notices and now it only takes me about 1 minute to fire one off. hehe
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      • Profile picture of the author WiFi
        Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

        Just because they are in another country doesn't mean they are untouchable. The United States has many bilateral copyright agreements in place that protect your copyrights in the participating company therefore one should not hesitate to send a DCMA notice.

        I just cite the agreement if I have to send a notice to some one in a different country.

        Bilateral copyright agreements of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        That's the list of countries. Note: India is on the list. = )

        Just recently I found my software "AGAIN" being offered on a very prominent forum with a certain colored hat in the name.

        This time I called the actual hosting company and as things turn out the gentleman who owns the hosting company insisted on being a forum moderator on this site in order to host the site. He logged in and instantly deleted the thread offering the free crack and download link and told me to call him any time I find my products on the forum.

        So sometimes taking the time to protect your business works out to our advantage!

        I like Mike's idea but I've sent quite a few DMCA notices and now it only takes me about 1 minute to fire one off. hehe
        I'm sure that gentelman will be getting quite a bit more calls in the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Webpromotion View Post

      Software industry just gave in.
      No, we did not.

      We just got a bit sneakier and we learned to be quiet about what works
      and what doesn't work.

      Some took the approach "if its going to be cracked, use the cracks as marketing"

      Some took the approach " blitz the computer the crack is running on"

      Some took the approach " The software can tell if its been altered, so lets
      pretend that it works, and slowley degrade, or just act like its crummy software full of bugs to begin with"

      Some took the approach " update so often the crackers cant keep up with the current versions"

      Some took the approach "join the crackers, get some payback"

      Some took the approach "Law enforcement"

      Some took other steps.

      What we have never done, "is just gave in "
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  • Profile picture of the author mikem1962
    I to have seen people on fiverr selling WSO's cheap. Not sure how to get this practice stopped.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shazia Mirza
    I think me and OP are in the same boat, I am lucky I came across this thread, looks like this guy on Fiverr is really selling a multitude of products.

    Here is my rant on him... http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...y-product.html

    I will look through this thread and cross my fingers hoping to see a brilliant idea!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    Mike, I totally agree with you. I personally had to actually hire a full time Filipino just to check if my stuff is leaked and send DMCA notices. It's a total waste of $300 per month but it's definitely worth it and I would recommend it to everybody who sells 'big time' internet marketing products. Worst of all is people who spread my products many times and create many other file downloads after my employee sends a DMCA notice to the file host. I have threatened most of the file sharers on forums to legal action, however, only two of four took it seriously and closed up their posts on forums. Do you know if there's any way to get forums to remove this content? That's the main thing I'd like to know. If there were, it'd make my life a lot easier.

    Although this is a continuing issue, I don't know if it can be fully stopped and put to an end, especially if your product gets really popular. Unfortunately, thieves are everywhere and have existed since, well... our world stated. I can still remember that caveman movie where one caveman hits another with a rock and takes his raw chicken. Hopefully soon we can be the ones to hit back that caveman .
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    Guys, I found a great way to protecting some of your content and 'freaking out' some thieves. I recently found DMCA badges on dmca.com (provides professional DMCA takedown services) that are provided to us FREE of charge! Just stick this on your website footer, even perhaps the ecover of your product and you've got yourself a boost of protection . Here're the images:

    Version 1:


    Version 2:


    Version 3:


    I'm definitely going to add this to some of my content and websites. Give it a try!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    FBI — Anti-Piracy Warning Seal

    This seal coming to web sites all over the United States soon. A vote to broaden the usage of this seal was made last month. I had the link but now of course I can't find it.

    Just think if you plaster that all over the second page of your ebook and on your web site. Of course if you are a software developer you can join a couple of the associations mention on that page to have the rights to use the seal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      FBI -- Anti-Piracy Warning Seal

      This seal coming to web sites all over the United States soon. A vote to broaden the usage of this seal was made last month. I had the link but now of course I can't find it.

      Just think if you plaster that all over the second page of your ebook and on your web site. Of course if you are a software developer you can join a couple of the associations mention on that page to have the rights to use the seal.
      I'll definitely use this too. Thanks for the suggestion, I'm looking for all kinds of these types of seals and images.
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  • Profile picture of the author Emily Meeks
    I agree with you. Unfortunately, so long as the Internet's around, piracy will always be around to some extent... but even though it's nigh impossible to completely stamp it out, it doesn't mean we should just say "We can't stop it, so f*ck it" - we still need to make an effort.

    I know a certain piracy forum's Do Not Share list is getting longer all the time...
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    In all that you do, know your True INTENT...

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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Just thinking out loud also...

    Although I appreciate what you are trying to achieve here, as I'm sure many others do also, I can't help but feel something like this is actually making the issue worse:

    1) Every time I see one of these file sharing threads I think about the hundreds of people who read it who had no idea they could go off and find these products for free elsewhere. So the BH sites now get a number of new members and each time the demand on those sites for shared products increases, the problem gets worse and worse. The more you publicize the problem, the worse it gets and the harder you will need to fight.

    2) Think about it logically. If you create a tool that helps product owners easily track down where their product is being shared then you are also creating a tool that will help these freebie seekers easily track down where certain products are being shared... once again adding to the problem.

    As someone above already mentioned. If the music industry has been unable to stop this problem then I don't see a small group of IM'ers gaining much traction. If I ever find people sharing my stuff I have always just sent a DCMA notice (takes 2 minutes to complete with a template) fire it off and the links are usually down within a day or two. What a lot of people get wrong is they try and send the DCMA notices to the BH forums where the links are being shared. They don't care. The people you need to send the DCMA notice to are the file sharing sites where your product is actually uploaded.

    If you guys can come up with some sort of solution that doesn't make the problem worse then I'm all ears... but so far I don't think it's possible. Once again, I appreciate your intentions but you need to think about this carefully... is this actually going to do more harm than good?

    Can you imagine how many people went out of their way to download Metallica's music for free when they heard about them suing Napster? I'll bet it was a whole HEAP more than would have done so had Metallica just kept quiet about things.

    Often putting roadblocks in the way just makes the problem worse. Those people who are determined to share copyright products will just find a way to get around your system and it won't take them long to do so. It could be as simple as them choosing a different way to name the downloads so they can easily find them but your software can't. These are the same guys who are hacking software programs all day long so it won't be hard for them... and remember, a number of the members of those sites are people sitting right on this very forum who will be watching every move you make.
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    • Profile picture of the author princecapri
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Just thinking out loud also...

      As someone above already mentioned. If the music industry has been unable to stop this problem then I don't see a small group of IM'ers gaining much traction. If I ever find people sharing my stuff I have always just sent a DCMA notice (takes 2 minutes to complete with a template) fire it off and the links are usually down within a day or two. What a lot of people get wrong is they try and send the DCMA notices to the BH forums where the links are being shared. They don't care. The people you need to send the DCMA notice to are the file sharing sites where your product is actually uploaded.
      This one.

      I am surprised no one has highlighted what happened with the music industry. They tried, but they couldn't fight piracy. You can try, but other than software that connects with servers at client side, you cannot secure other products forever. Pdfs, videos and audios are very easy to download and share.

      As Will said, just send a DMC notice and you are good to go. Unfortunately, I don't feel that an industry-wide solution will work. But good luck to you! By all means, go for it, and be successful
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    Thumbs up for stating a problem and also offering a solution! Really admire that! As for pirates, they will always be there but you are def right that atleast something should be done about them.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    I think it's annoying and it's a problem but in a way it's a good problem to have.

    Why?

    It's like when Paypal restricts your account because you're getting a lot of payments. It's a problem you have because you're making boatloads of sales!

    I know maybe some who don't sell much may have people putting their stuff up for free somewhere, but a lot of the time it's products that have sold thousands that are then getting shared.

    So for most, look on the bright side! It just means you are successful with that product if this is happening to you.

    Also, if myself I had a product selling thousands I may worry about it (piracy), but I wouldn't think of really spending too much time on it.

    The reason I have this attitude is because I think most of the people wanting to download your stuff for free are the same people who would just buy your product and then immediately ask for a refund.

    Or, they are people who would never buy your product in the first place because they simply can't afford it or just don't want to pay. So, they will get it for free or not get it at all.

    All in all, I like WillR's post. I think he speaks a lot of sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      The reason I have this attitude is because I think most of the people wanting to download your stuff for free are the same people who would just buy your product and then immediately ask for a refund.

      Or, they are people who would never buy your product in the first place because they simply can't afford it or just don't want to pay. So, they will get it for free or not get it at all.

      All in all, I like WillR's post. I think he speaks a lot of sense.
      Bingo. The only people you would ever stop are those who would never purchase your product anyway and even if they did, I wouldn't want them purchasing because as noted above, these are the types of people who are going to ask for refunds or file chargeback disputes, etc... the types of people who are only going to be a pain in your backside.

      It's a little like speed cameras. The speed cameras only stop the people who are speeding, not the ones who follow the law. Those who speed will simply slow down for the camera and then zoom off as soon as they get around the corner. It doesn't really solve the problem it just makes the government a whole ton of money.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author JMSD
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post


      We're not so naive as to believe we're going to stop it entirely, but we damn well know we can make it more difficult and we can pursue individuals doing it.
      Whilst WillR makes valid points, I'm inclined to go along with Big Mike's views. After all, burglary isn't eliminated by putting locks on our doors and windows. But taking all reasonable steps to make one's possessions more secure, we make it more difficult for most burglars to gain access.

      I'd be interested in this scheme provided it was not prohibitively expensive. The more reasonably priced, the higher number of marketers would participate.

      I'll be checking out the link provided above.

      James
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      I think you're misunderstanding the overall goals of this group, so let me try and reiterate what this is about.

      Setting aside the illegal sharing going on, what's driving me personally is that there are scumbags who are selling our products illegally or using them to sell something else of their own. I'm not willing to roll over and just accept that under any circumstances.

      This isn't just about those who wouldn't buy our products in the first place, because these folks think they are buying our products innocently enough, and then come to us for support, which has a tangible cost passed on to us. The illegal sales/sharing also damages our reputation with cracked versions containing trojans, adware, etc.

      Personally, I'm not ok with the idea that we should simply let it go, without at least making some form of organized effort to combat it.

      My goal at this point is to tackle the problem on several fronts - educating product owners on best practices for securing their products, identifying illegally shared/sold products and automating the reporting/take down process to various online services where it's happening and possibly developing methods/systems for protecting products from being (easily) shared.

      We're not so naive as to believe we're going to stop it entirely, but we damn well know we can make it more difficult and we can pursue individuals doing it.

      At the very least, what comes out of this will benefit product owners in terms of educating them to the issue itself, steps they can take to protect their products and a process to follow if they choose to pursue those doing it.

      If nothing else, that last part makes the effort worthwhile
      I do understand what you are saying Mike and as a product owner myself I have had to deal with my fair share of this also. I would love to see a solution to this problem just as much as you would.

      (I guess the support thing has never been an issue for me because I make it so my products are downloadable through a members area and I have a contact form setup in the members area which is the only way people can contact me for support. If they try to PM me or reply to the Paypal email then I still ask them to use the form on the Support page so I know I am only dealing with REAL paid members.)

      What I am saying is that through educating product owners you are also going to end up publicizing the problem even more so which could actually make the problem even worse. After all, a lot of product vendors are also consumers of products.

      Let's take a look at this thread for example. The first thing less than desirable scum bags are going to think is wow, I didn't know Mike's products were available online for free. I'm going to go and find me some of them. Before this thread was started they would have had no idea OR would never have even given it a thought. So has that really helped the problem or made it worse? At this point of time the thread has been viewed 758 times. So that's potentially over 700 extra people who have now been made aware.

      I'm just thinking realistically here. I understand you don't want to just sit back and let it happen but the truth is, sometimes that is going to cause the least amount of damage. The people that are doing it now are going to continue to do it no matter what anyone does. If they're not sharing your products it will be someone elses. That's a given. What we want to do is stop the problem spreading and in my honest opinion, the best way to do that is to not publicize it on a forum full of people struggling to make money online looking to get everything for nothing.

      There was a great example of this in the news not so long ago. A new trend had started here in Australia called 'planking'. Search Google images and you will see what I mean. It was NOT very well known until one guy died by planking on the edge of a balcony. The media was all over it and so guess what, a week later every second person was planking. Obviously this would not have happened had the media just left it alone. The next week another young guy died planking on a car. You see my point here? Publicizing the problem only made it spread even faster and actually made the problem worse.

      Obviously that's just my opinion and I look forward to seeing you guys make some progress... if it's possible.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by WillR

        There was a great example of this in the news not so long ago. A new trend had started here in Australia called 'planking'. Search Google images and you will see what I mean. It was NOT very well known until one guy died by planking on the edge of a balcony. The media was all over it and so guess what, a week later every second person was planking. Obviously this would not have happened had the media just left it alone. The next week another young guy died planking on a car. You see my point here? Publicizing the problem only made it spread even faster and actually made the problem worse.
        A compelling argument, I have to say.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
          I'm only happy if a system could be devised that allows us to easily track down the pond scum, get their address, and send Mongo over to teach them the error of their ways.
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          Kevin Riley, long-time Warrior living in Osaka, Japan

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  • Profile picture of the author mvirtual
    It is good idea to protect our products to be shared for free. The question is what we can do about that. Almost all on the internet get shared from software, music and videos. It would be nice if there will be some kind of portal or website where we can learn how to pull our products from sharing sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
    strategically, my fix is to include at least a couple of ongoing webinars along with products, which I now price higher, so that the physical/download content is only a small part of what they actually get. still it's a big hassle having to send DMCA notices all the time; I've sent hundreds and will likely have to continue doing so. if the pirates see your stuff taken down all the time, maybe they focus elsewhere (like having a lock on your steering wheel, makes your car less attractive though still take-able, it's more hassle for them)
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  • Profile picture of the author SinSimon
    When you make a product (software especially) and don't want it to be shared, you gota build in really good code to secure it. That means additional cost for programmer to implement, but it will minimize sharing a lot.

    Real problems is with documents, like PDFs. And honestly, I have no idea what you can do to EFFECTIVELY stop sharing these.
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