Full time Internet Marketers, what do you tell people you do?

92 replies
I am an internet marketer. I do not work a nine to five, I do not have a career working for a fortune 500 company. I spend most of my time at home working to grow my business.


It has always been difficult explaining to people exactly what I do for a living. I say I own an internet marketing company but i get the impression from most people they think im just saying that to cover up what I really do. They must think that a young guy in his mid 20s driving nice vehicles and in a nice house that is not a lawyer or stock broker must be a drug dealer. A guy that does not ever go to work or to an office some place. A guy that has a lot of free time in the day and has friends come over frequently. It must look strange to most people.



When they ask me "so what exactly is internet marketing and what do you market?" I get a little stumped. The answer to that question is so complicated and there are so many aspects to it that I can not give the quick answer they are expecting. That makes people even more suspicions of me. Not to mention that the average person thinks that the only way to make money online is to sell a physical good on an online store or to be some scam artist stealing peoples credit card numbers.


What do you tell people? I know this question has probably been posted before and if so I am sorry, to lazy to do a search.
#full #internet #marketers #people #tell people #time #what you do #what you do for a living
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Uh..... "Internet Marketing"?

    Its a good way to get solicited to do a web site job without trying.
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    • Profile picture of the author Global Warrior
      Thats a great question!

      Ive though long about this myself and this is how the typical conversation goes:

      Them, "so what do you do?"
      Me, "Well i play Golf"
      Them " Oh a Golf Pro"
      Me " No, Heck my handicap is 14"
      Them " Oh no, what i really meant was what do you do?"
      Me "Oh.... I see. Well i Polish my Lamborghini at weekends"
      Them " Ah, You're a professional Car Valet person"
      Me " No, I polish my own car not other peoples"
      Them " Ok, so what do you do that allows you to play Golf and drive a Lamborghini?"
      Me "Ok! I see what you're askin' now. Im an International product broker"

      At this point i usually cant contain myself looking at them trying to figure out what an International product broker is, so i wait for the inevitable.

      Them " What the hell is an International product broker?"
      Me "Well, I'll tell you the really simple explanation, i find people that want stuff and i connect them with people that sell stuff and i try to repeat that cycle as often as possible.

      And this is where the killer close comes in

      Them " Oh you mean like eBay?"
      Me " Yep.......... only bigger"

      So if you ever meet a guy at at International product brokerage convention and he tells you he met a guy thats bigger than ebay.... Smile.

      Have a great New Year

      GW
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      • Profile picture of the author canada94
        Originally Posted by Global Warrior View Post

        Thats a great question!

        Ive though long about this myself and this is how the typical conversation goes:

        Them, "so what do you do?"
        Me, "Well i play Golf"
        Them " Oh a Golf Pro"
        Me " No, Heck my handicap is 14"
        Them " Oh no, what i really meant was what do you do?"
        Me "Oh.... I see. Well i Polish my Lamborghini at weekends"
        Them " Ah, You're a professional Car Valet person"
        Me " No, I polish my own car not other peoples"
        Them " Ok, so what do you do that allows you to play Golf and drive a Lamborghini?"
        Me "Ok! I see what you're askin' now. Im an International product broker"

        At this point i usually cant contain myself looking at them trying to figure out what an International product broker is, so i wait for the inevitable.

        Them " What the hell is an International product broker?"
        Me "Well, I'll tell you the really simple explanation, i find people that want stuff and i connect them with people that sell stuff and i try to repeat that cycle as often as possible.

        And this is where the killer close comes in

        Them " Oh you mean like eBay?"
        Me " Yep.......... only bigger"

        So if you ever meet a guy at at International product brokerage convention and he tells you he met a guy thats bigger than ebay.... Smile.

        Have a great New Year

        GW
        LMAO GW, great response, that got my Sunday morning off to a good start.


        Kevin:p
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    • I just say I'm in marketing, mainly online marketing.
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      • Profile picture of the author pheonixrises
        Originally Posted by TBInternetMarketing View Post

        I just say I'm in marketing, mainly online marketing.
        Same here, although I'm not full time yet. I find that the "marketing" response usually satisfies people. Otherwise, if it's an honest question I do give them some explanation. If it's one of those people who is just trying to size you up, the "drug dealer" response has worked a couple of times. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author DaVincian
    just tell them

    i am working from home

    the company that i worked for did require me to go to the office frequently

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  • Profile picture of the author bluetechseo
    LOL that is a great question,

    You get asked this for insurance, bank accounts, etc, when returning to the UK after 5 months abroad I was asked a few routine questions for government stats like how old are you, where did you go, married/single bla bla bla...when it came to what I do I said internet marketing and the guy paused and looked at me funny then carried on LOL

    Here is my answer: I am in internet marketing, what I do is get websites to the first page of google. BAM

    Then I change the subject! But sometimes they will know what it is and fire a million questions at you!
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I usually just tell them to visit this site "and prepare to have their minds blown."
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesvick
    ROFL very nice question. It's difficult for internet marketers to explain even to their parents what they are doing. You can say you build websites for others or a simple "I create projects and get paid " works.

    Or anything worth respect like - run a business, market products etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Devon Brown
    I tell people that I'm a coach for home based entrepreneurs. Their eyebrows usually go up and they're slightly confused about it and rarely do they ask for more info.
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  • Profile picture of the author senukeservices
    Great question! i even find it hard to answer my 8 y old son when he asks: Do you really have a job , Dad?

    All your suggestions here are welcome
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  • Profile picture of the author rooze
    I just tell people I deal drugs.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by rooze View Post

      I just tell people I deal drugs.
      Oh, so you are a doctor?

      Your mother must be so proud!
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by rooze View Post

        I just tell people I deal drugs.
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        Oh, so you are a doctor?

        Your mother must be so proud!
        A friend of mine used to use that line all the time...

        He wasn't a doctor, though. He was a rep for a pharma company.:p
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  • Profile picture of the author Rukshan
    Work at home. That's correct! It's very hard to explain for typical people.
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    • Profile picture of the author Adam Martinez
      It is still very difficult for me to just say, I do SEO, or I make websites that rank on the top of Google because that is just a small portion of what I do. Part of me wants there respect and approval of being a young legitimate business man. There is product creation, marketing my own products, marketing affiliate vendor products, email marketing, I can go on and on.
      I think I am just going to say "I market out products and services to people on the internet, some of my own products and some of other people's products."
      But then there is always that question, "what kind of products?" I hate that question.
      I will say "anything that sells for money on the internet. As for my products, I sell information products." That should work next time. If not I will just admit I am a drug dealer or arms dealer. lol

      Originally Posted by Rukshan View Post

      Work at home. That's correct! It's very hard to explain for typical people.
      Yes most people think home and work have to be 2 separate things.
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  • Profile picture of the author milne
    Lol, good question, just tell them that you are offering SEO services, they will probably wont understand what it is, and would stop asking any more questions
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    I just tell people I'm an internet marketer, which is usually followed by "whats that?"

    Then I explain in as little detail as possible, and they can fill in the blanks with their imagination.

    If they want to assume I built facebook or google or something, whatever.

    lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Depends on who is asking.

    When it is someone of no consequence I tell them that I am a webmaster. When it is someone of consequence I tell them that I am a Internet Marketer.

    When someone of consequence asks "What is an Internet Marketer?"
    I almost always reply "Well, if you have ever bought something on the internet the chances are very good that I probably made made money off of you."

    Then I give them my business card with my bar code embedded with my affiliate link to Willie Crawford's website
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  • Profile picture of the author barbling
    I tell people I make money online.

    Works fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author MMWoodward
    When people ask me what I do, right now, my opening line is just, "I'm a writer". They're usually somewhat satisfied with that, though they sometimes ask for more, so then I get into article writing, to which they ask what I write about and I go on about that for awhile. Then, if I want to get out of a conversation fairly quickly, just for whatever reason, I'll usually throw random IM jargon at them. xD

    Most of the time, when people ask me what I do, though, I end up just talking about all the stuff that I'm able to do because of having such a flexible schedule due to IM. That's the fun stuff to talk about, after all!
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  • Profile picture of the author twistfix
    i generally just explain the seo part of it and tell people i help websites rank better in google
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  • Profile picture of the author domainarama
    I'm Kim Kardashian's next husband.....if I can only get my (&%#&* wife to divorce me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Trevor
      I tell people I do internet marketing. If they want to go into details, I don't share them. Period.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peru101
    Haha, wondering that myself!
    I tell them I am an internet marketer.
    What's that?
    I sell products online and make a bit of the sale.
    Most people leave it at that, but one person actually replied, "I kind of know what you mean. I bought all my presents online."

    Of course, there are others who say, "I want to make money online too," but then when I tell them it requires work, they act like I've just hit them in the face. Work? No way!

    I've been fortunate enough to have a friend that appreciates when I've achieve goals and milestones and listens while I ramble on about domains, keywords, backlinks, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author theory expert
    Banned
    Tell them what you are then if they want more info send them to your free pdf....that is either a product for your services or your affiliate services. What ever their hearts desire you can provide a service to make money off of them. They want consulting for their business, or if they want a business opportunity you can provide any scenerio to tickle their fancy. As long as they don't knock on your door for direct mentorship you're good,lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author savvybizbuilder
    Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post

    It has always been difficult explaining to people exactly what I do for a living.
    We have the same concern regarding with our work.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I usually say I manage a small publishing company. It's close enough to true, and usually satisfies people.

      Originally Posted by domainarama View Post

      I'm Kim Kardashian's next husband.....if I can only get my (&%#&* wife to divorce me.
      You could start by showing her this post...
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        That's always been an easy question for me to answer - I mind my own business, and you should too.
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  • Profile picture of the author kret0s
    A lot of people do not know what IM is and the money in it...

    People are brainwashed/too traditional to think outside of the "9-5 job to make money"

    Who cares what other people think - as long as you're happy and you're not actually a "drug dealer"
    - Lifes good.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    If somebody asks me, "What is internet marketing?" I reply, "It's making money online. There are too many aspects to explain on the spot. Want to learn? Give me 5 grand." That should do it .
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  • Profile picture of the author dannygnenerate
    That is a really great question.

    I just tell them I make money by affiliating and being an outsource for major companies like, Clickbank, Amazon, major book outlets and make my own e-products and market them out.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    i introduce myself as elvis presley and explain i am living off the proceeds of selling my 24/7 and am now looking to buy a gas station

    sign a few autographs too
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  • Profile picture of the author pandadoodle
    my friend once made the connection that freelancing and being unemployed is the same, so I'm a professional bum
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  • Profile picture of the author Anthony W
    I tell people I sell meth to little kids on the Nickelodeon message boards. Is it bad that half of them believe me? :s
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    People think I am unemployed so they never ask what I am doing

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Murray
    Me: "I build websites."

    Them: "How do you make money?"

    Me: "Advertising revenues and commissions."

    Them: ""

    I don't generally get grilled about it. And this conversation is quite typical, I find.

    But if they do want more details, it's not too incredibly time-consuming or laborious to provide them. "My websites help people make smart buying decisions. The companies I suggest they buy from compensate me for doing so."
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  • Profile picture of the author Ashley Redcliff
    I just say that I'm a freelancer. It keeps it simple and understandable to anyone who asks.

    I do serve to clients rather than just do Internet marketing, so calling myself a freelancer is accurate enough even if it's not the only thing I do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Prest
    I usually say that I work from home as an online publisher - but then they often think that I sell novels.

    Otherwise, I say that I improve business website rankings on Google.

    By this time their eyes are glazing over...
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  • Profile picture of the author hustlinsmoke
    Unless Im networking, I just tell them, I work off the computer.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Advertising Services and Consulting.
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  • Profile picture of the author JoeDRL
    I have problem telling what I do too,
    A lot of great ideas here thanks to all!

    Be happy, be successful,
    ~ JoeDRL
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  • Profile picture of the author feelgoodtime
    I tell people I'm a freelancer, I do everything that needs to be done and in record time. Sounds kinda trickery.
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  • Profile picture of the author 23profit
    There are so many ways to describe what you do for a living because everbody on this forum has busted there butts learning different ways of killing the game on the internet.
    But I like what MYOB said that was funny!
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  • Profile picture of the author MiFortuna
    Just tell them I am in Advertising.
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  • Profile picture of the author anshuldayal
    I deal with offline clients and always sell my service as an "online marketer". This is a great way to sell your yourself as an expert to real businesses while still using all your accumulated internet marketing knowledge.
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  • Profile picture of the author Phantasmo
    you could try "marketing consultant"
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    • Profile picture of the author lerxtjr
      difficult for internet marketers to explain even to their parents what they are doing
      haa, loved that one...my own mother used to help at my web marketing workshops at the registration desk. She's probably been to about a dozen of them and STILL has no clue what I do all day.

      I taught my then-12-year-old to receive content by email and then add the content to one of my websites through admin and he finally got it.

      To people who have no clue, I love to just confuse more than they already are like this:

      Person: What do you do?
      Me: I build stuff
      Person: What kind of stuff do you build?
      Me: Well, I find a location where I want to build, then I instruct my team to do the building, then I'll make some contributions of my own and then we'll make signs to get people to go there to buy what we've built together.
      Person: Wow, sounds like a lot of work.
      Me: Yep, that's what takes up my day making that all happen.
      Person: Cool! So, you're a builder.
      Me: You got it.
      Person: Where can I see one of your buildings?
      Me: On my main website at whatever . com
      Person: Can't you give me an address?
      Me: I just did. It's whatever . com
      Person: Can't I just drive there?
      Me: Nope.
      Person: Why not?
      Me: Because it's not a building like what you're thinking of.

      We don't get a lot of respect from people working online do we? Sucky I guess. But, when I start talking about "building things" suddenly that's okay. The fact that I don't do everything myself and have a team and have to go sell what we build gives a glimpse to the outsider that at least the process is pretty involved.
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  • The only reasonable way to respond for a marketer when asked what they do is to say it in a way that could potentially lead to new business for you...

    If you only sell products online and don't actually market to people you meet in person, you're missing out on additional streams of income and new opportunities.

    You could say something like, "Thanks for asking. I actually build and run website businesses and I'm looking for... (insert what you're looking for, ie "I'm creating a new training program and I'm looking for people who are interested in earning an extra $1,000 a month online from home..."

    Unless you just want to talk about the weather and other boring stuff. I'd rather earn more money and help more people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Heather Vale
    Ya know, that's a really vague question because "internet marketing" really doesn't say much at all (I mean, the way you're describing yourself to US, not just to "other" people).

    Some Warriors answering you do affiliate marketing. Some do SEO. Some do web design. Some actually have a full business, creating content and the like.

    You guys are lumping all that under "internet marketing" but not all of it falls under the category of "marketing." Marketing is just one process in a well-rounded business, and it may or may not be part (or all) of what you DO.

    Personally, I think it makes more sense to actually answer the question (ummm... isn't that why somebody asked it in the first place?)

    So you could say "I advertise other people's online products for a commission," or "I optimize websites so they get better search ranking," or "I write e-books about xxx," or "I blog about xxx," or "I sell products that help people xxx," or whatever you actually DO.

    Were you looking for something more complicated?
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  • Profile picture of the author sonnywacko
    adam

    just tell them a very simple answer, you sell products that are popular online, if they ask exactly what tell them to goto Ebay, simple.

    sonny
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  • Profile picture of the author AlexRyan
    I do the consultant thing as well. I've done the author thing as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author Webpromotion
    I tell them, I'm into Internet Marketing...and follow it with " I sell stuff on the web"
    and that they understand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Banks
    I tell them affiliate marketing online. Usualy they don't ask anymore questions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Seth Bias
    I like to be very discreet with what I do so it makes people think crazy things about my job title it makes me laugh a lot. Or I tell them I am a online a$$ kicker
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  • Profile picture of the author testwarrior
    website owner
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  • Profile picture of the author smoor2012
    I am working toward the same lifestyle. I appreciate this post because it tells me to keep digging until I work it out.

    Thanks
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    PM me and I will respond as soon as possible

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  • Profile picture of the author chrislangley
    It certainly looks strange, but if you show them your websites and some of your sites, it usually wins them over
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  • Profile picture of the author Eduard Stinga
    My parents don't really know exactly what I'm doing online, they only see the $ rolling in so they keep telling me not to steal credit cards on the Internet
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  • Profile picture of the author paulpower
    I tell people I am an alchemist, and no I will not turn lead into gold for them.

    This is only told to people I don't like, my family and friends all know I earn money from internet marketing, but I explain to them that I make money selling information products, such as make more money, and lose weight this year.

    They are happy with that.
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  • Profile picture of the author hidden ninja
    One day I was on my PC and a guest came to my house. He started asking me.
    He:-if am I doing something illegal
    Me:-I was like WTF. Why did you even think about that.
    He:- Cause I don't see you go to work or anything, how could you mange your bills and everything you have.
    Me:-Well I do internet marketing
    He:-WTH is that
    Me:-I sell stuff online, like service, products etc
    He:- Hmm (he was thinking I really do illegal stuff lol)
    Me:-

    After few days later my cousin called me and asking hey man stop doing whatever you are doing right now. you can get away with that you will get caught soon or later. I was like who told you this, he was you know "Guy name" I said o yahhhhh.
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  • I just pick one product that people will recognize like "Netflix" and say I sell memberships, then ask them if they need one. I used to be uncomfortable with the question, but since I've narrowed my answer down to just one thing that seems to work the best for me.
    Stef
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  • Profile picture of the author ultimatewarriorforum
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Like everything, it depends, mostly on who is asking.

      1. Highly Paid Underwear Inspector (to elderly people)
      2. I sell couch insurance (to anyone expecting something dignified)
      3. Marry foreign girls and get them a green card (to foreign girls)
      4. I sell lead paint to China (to concerned parents)
      5. Undercover Agent (to police giving me a speeding ticket)
      6. Grave Robber (at funerals)
      7. Corn Star (to people with hearing problems)
      8. My wives all work and I stay home (at religious gatherings)
      9. Pyramid Scheme Inventor (to bankers and accountants)
      10. Professional sunglasses model (to people who don't like my driving)

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  • Profile picture of the author 0oo0
    I just wonder how many of you are lying and work some 9-5 and just sit online telling stories???
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by 0oo0 View Post

      I just wonder how many of you are lying and work some 9-5 and just sit online telling stories???

      11. Professional liar and story-teller (to people who feel jaded and cynical)

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      The bartender says: "We don't serve faster-than-light particles here."

      ...A tachyon enters a bar.

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  • Profile picture of the author 0oo0
    My favorite are the armchair activists
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    • Profile picture of the author subten101
      Some funny stories right there, I think if people ask that is the best way for you to make money by providing your website they can be added to your mailing list.
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      Ever Wonder Why The Top 3% Of Online Marketers Make More Than The Other 97% Combined! >>>>>www.easycashwebinarsystem.com<<<<<
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  • Profile picture of the author addieloweryctgkd
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    I say: "I show business owners how to market their business on the internet."
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  • Profile picture of the author trustedWFhelper
    For some who can handle a joke, I would say "I'm not working as but working on something"
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  • Profile picture of the author nickdamodda
    Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post



    It has always been difficult explaining to people exactly what I do for a living. I say I own an internet marketing company but i get the impression from most people they think im just saying that to cover up what I really do. They must think that a young guy in his mid 20s driving nice vehicles and in a nice house that is not a lawyer or stock broker must be a drug dealer. A guy that does not ever go to work or to an office some place. A guy that has a lot of free time in the day and has friends come over frequently. It must look strange to most people.

    Same thing goes for me. I'm in high school and have a lot of more expensive items and everyone questions me. I just say I help advertisers meet their demands. For my age, I can just throw in a few big words and sound professional and I'm good. Thank you for making this thread, because I need an answer as well :p
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  • Profile picture of the author david carr
    I say I sell s%!t online!

    They ask what?

    I say "Information mostly"

    Regards
    Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author richfit
    Help You Get 1st Page Google Rankings & CRUSH It Online!
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    Yeah my answers is visit my site which is basically is my name and most people find that very cool.
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  • Profile picture of the author eman1
    I tell people that I am a internet marketer or that I build websites and use them to make money online marketing a variety of products. Some people, after learning what I do, have wanted me to build a site for them.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
    Banned
    I usually say I do online lead generation or help businesses with their online image
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    tell them I am a mushroom farmer.

    The just stare blankly and it stops those questions along the lines of "So how can I make money on the internet" Then I just go to the bar and get drunk. LOL. Problem solved for those in those sticky situations.

    They just think I am a Alcoholic mushroom farmer!...lol...sits fine with me. ha ha ZING!
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSEO
    Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post

    Full time Internet Marketers, what do you tell people you do?
    Personally I'm always tell the truth: I'm doing my business in the Internet and earn the money from the people around the Globe.
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  • Profile picture of the author Seatbelt99
    LOL. A lot of these are pretty funny.

    I still work a 9-5 but as soon as 51% of my income is from the internet (hopefully late 2012 or 2013) I'll just say "Internet Marketing". When people ask for details I'll proudly give them until they get board of listening to me. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Brass
    I just tell them I am an internet marketer. People are usually intrigued so I just tell them that I work the SERPs on Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author geolocal
    I interviewed Perry Marshall once and we both agreed that the best, least confusing answer is "I'm a consultant".
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  • Profile picture of the author DURABLEOILCOM
    Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post

    I am an internet marketer. I do not work a nine to five, I do not have a career working for a fortune 500 company. I spend most of my time at home working to grow my business.


    It has always been difficult explaining to people exactly what I do for a living. I say I own an internet marketing company but i get the impression from most people they think im just saying that to cover up what I really do. They must think that a young guy in his mid 20s driving nice vehicles and in a nice house that is not a lawyer or stock broker must be a drug dealer. A guy that does not ever go to work or to an office some place. A guy that has a lot of free time in the day and has friends come over frequently. It must look strange to most people.



    When they ask me "so what exactly is internet marketing and what do you market?" I get a little stumped. The answer to that question is so complicated and there are so many aspects to it that I can not give the quick answer they are expecting. That makes people even more suspicions of me. Not to mention that the average person thinks that the only way to make money online is to sell a physical good on an online store or to be some scam artist stealing peoples credit card numbers.


    What do you tell people? I know this question has probably been posted before and if so I am sorry, to lazy to do a search.
    I let everyone know that I am an Entrepreneur that owns a business.
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  • Profile picture of the author PopeMarketing
    Haha I love this thread!

    So glad I'm not the only one that struggles with this quandary...

    Depending who asks I'll just make up something random. Like I'm a Lion Tamer, or a Dolphin Rescue Specialist, or an Astronaut Consultant, the list goes on...

    If it's not appropriate to pretend to be Johnny Depp's Stunt Double, then I simply explain I run a couple of online marketing companies. Further details include creating digital products, and helping other business owners make more sales, that kinda thing.

    Much more fun to just lie though
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  • Profile picture of the author kavipriya
    Tell them that you offer products and services for a percentage of commission.
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  • Profile picture of the author forumface
    hahaa

    them:- what do you do
    me:- I am google ads publisher
    them:- AH GOOGLE
    me:-hmmm

    LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by PopeMarketing View Post

      Haha I love this thread!

      So glad I'm not the only one that struggles with this quandary...

      Depending who asks I'll just make up something random. Like I'm a Lion Tamer, or a Dolphin Rescue Specialist, or an Astronaut Consultant, the list goes on...

      If it's not appropriate to pretend to be Johnny Depp's Stunt Double, then I simply explain I run a couple of online marketing companies. Further details include creating digital products, and helping other business owners make more sales, that kinda thing.

      Much more fun to just lie though
      Yep, it was a good thread when it started five years ago.

      Still a good thread in spite of the one-liner sig dump that resurrected it...
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