Tim Ferriss Scoffs at Gladwell's 10,000 Hours

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I felt a brief moment of anxiety when I read somewhere that Malcolm Gladwell, author of The Tipping Point and Blink, says it takes 10,000 hours of effort to master a subject.

Hmm... let's see. 40 hours per week times 50 weeks per year = 2,000 hours. In only 5 years of full time study I could master Internet Marketing.

About that time I noticed my bull-shi-TOM-eter was pegged in the red. My breathing returned to normal and the anxiety passed.

Sorry Malcolm, I'm not going for it. It might make a good catch-phrase for selling books of for businesses that bill by the hour, but not for me.

And then I stumbled on to this video by Tim Ferriss of 4-Hour-Workweek fame.



Joe Mobley
#ferriss #gladwell #hours #scoffs #tim
  • Profile picture of the author helisell
    I think he said it takes 10,000 to become and Expert

    I don't think he was being literal.....he used an arbitary figure
    to make the point that it takes effort to become 'expert'.

    I'm sure you can become 'good at' or 'master' something in less
    time...but to be a genuine, home grown, dyed in the wool, common or garden
    expert takes t i m e.

    I love Gladwell's books
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    • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
      Originally Posted by helisell View Post

      I think he said it takes 10,000 to become and Expert

      I don't think he was being literal.....he used an arbitary figure
      to make the point that it takes effort to become 'expert'.

      I'm sure you can become 'good at' or 'master' something in less
      time...but to be a genuine, home grown, dyed in the wool, common or garden
      expert takes t i m e.

      I love Gladwell's books
      Undoubtedly. The amount of time it takes to master (i.e. become and expert at) anything is completely relative and totally a function of what "it" is.

      The first time I heard that, I certainly didn't take it literally...that would just be silly.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
    Joe

    Interesting post.

    I've researched the 10,000 Hours/Mastery thing extensively...even written a book on it for Bass Guitarists.

    The 10,000 Hour thing ISN'T what it takes to become an expert. It what it takes to become a VIRTUOSO. The original study - which wasn't anything to do with Gladwell btw, but was done predominantly by a guy called Anders Ericsson - was a study of violinists. (Ferris mentions violinists in the video - so he's aware of the study).

    And the violinists who were going on to become Soloist Level Violinists in principle symphony orchestras were '10,000' Hour violinists.

    There has been a spurt of research in the last 20 years or so on how the brain learns - and everything that I've seen (and I don't follow it religiously) points to the fact that Ericsson's conclusions are right.

    What's interesting is that Ferriss talks in the video about 'spending his 10,000 hours' on becoming good at learning. So although he jokes about it....he's not dismissing it.

    Now most people see that figure and get intimidated by it - but the important thing you have to remember is that you need to invest 10,000 Hours for VIRTUOSO LEVEL. (To give you some equivalents....we're talking the Tiger Woods, Roger Federers, David Beckhams of the world).

    If you wanted to be someone like Jay Abrahams, then you'd probably need to look at that kind of learning investment. If you just want to create a successful business your 'time investment' is much, much less.



    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      First of all I realize that the problem is with me. (Dang it! I hate it when that happens.) Or at least with my definition of mastering a subject.

      Remember when this was unfolding I was coming to realize that IM is a bigger pie than most people think it is. I was also finding out about what Nathan2525 mentioned.

      Originally Posted by Nathan2525 View Post

      Also the thing with Internet marketing is that it is not just one skill you are learning...

      What most people don't realize is that you are actually striving to
      master business which has many parts to master.

      - Business
      - Marketing
      - Sales
      - Communication
      - Technical Aspects
      - Systems
      - Personal Development
      etc

      That is why it takes longer than people first realize.
      Only to then received the wonderful news of now I just need to put in my 10,000 hours. Great!

      I think what helped adjust my thinking a bit was Paul Wolfe's post on VIRTUOSO.

      Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

      Joe

      Interesting post.

      The 10,000 Hour thing ISN'T what it takes to become an expert. It what it takes to become a VIRTUOSO.

      And the violinists who were going on to become Soloist Level Violinists in principle symphony orchestras were '10,000' Hour violinists.

      ...VIRTUOSO LEVEL. (To give you some equivalents....we're talking the Tiger Woods, Roger Federers, David Beckhams of the world).

      Paul
      I can definately see how becoming world-class in almost any endeavor will take a lot of T I M E.

      So, with apologies to Malcolm Gladwell and appreciation to you who posted here, I continue to evolve.

      Joe Mobley
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    • Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

      Joe

      The 10,000 Hour thing ISN'T what it takes to become an expert. It what it takes to become a VIRTUOSO.
      Yea I'd agree with this.
      I love the 10,000 rule. It keeps me motivated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan2525
    Also the thing with Internet marketing is that it is not just
    one skill you are learning.

    Yes I believe you could master 'Marketing' in one year or less
    with the right training system.

    However the problem is that Internet marketing is a sub section
    of business.

    What most people don't realize is that you are actually striving to
    master business which has many parts to master.

    - Business
    - Marketing
    - Sales
    - Communication
    - Technical Aspects
    - Systems
    - Personal Development
    etc

    That is why it takes longer than people first realize.

    Good post though, thanks for the video.

    PS Tim also mentions that he has had 15 years experience
    in learning new skills. So he has mastered learning new skills
    which makes it quicker for him.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    Gladwell actually was making a distinction between someone who was great at something and then someone who was "best in the world" level. I believe he cited the example of someone who played the violin. He talked about the difference between a world renowned violinist and someone who plays "second chair" in an orchestra.

    And I fully agree with his assessment. There are many ways to cut time off and become proficient at something. And even very good.

    But you don't become Tiger Woods, Andres Segovia or Bill Gates without 10,000 hours.

    What Tim Ferriss does is figure out how to game the system. His Martial Arts trophy was because of a loophole in the rules. He lost tons of weight fast and then gained it back and threw the competitor off the mat. If you ask me, that is not "mastering" anything.

    Also, as much as Gladwell could potentially have an agenda in his books, I believe that Ferriss has an even stronger one. He has been pitching the whole speed learning thing for years. I wouldnt be surprised to see him come out with a book on it soon.

    In society today, everyone wants a shortcut. Everyone wants it fast and my way. And so people go through life skimming the surface and miss out on the experience of putting in the time, effort and heart to become the best at something.

    But, you can't decide to lower the bar of what it takes to be a "master" just because that person wasn't willing to put in the time.
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    • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
      Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

      He has been pitching the whole speed learning thing for years. I wouldnt be surprised to see him come out with a book on it soon.

      That would be my guess too. Coming soon:

      THE 4 HOUR MASTERY COURSE
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
        Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

        That would be my guess too. Coming soon:

        THE 4 HOUR MASTERY COURSE
        You beat me to it on the other post

        And I would love to hear Ferriss scoff about this to Gladwell. I think that it is easy to become a self proclaimed expert like Ferriss has in things unmeasurable (like speed learning), but I would love to see him try to make it onto the PGA Tour in one year.

        If he could win a tournament on the tour - or even make it onto the tour in one year, then I will eat my words or even pay off a bet - if he would be so bold as to make one. He can't do it.
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  • I actually think Tim Ferriss is the one full of it with his 4-hour-a-week mantra. There's NO CHANCE you can run any type of business by working less than one hour a day, no matter how much you outsource. It's just ridiculous.
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    • Profile picture of the author deannatroupe
      I agree that it seems improbable to run a business on only 4 hours a week. I'm trying to give Ferris the benefit of the doubt as I read his book.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
        Originally Posted by deannatroupe View Post

        I agree that it seems improbable to run a business on only 4 hours a week. I'm trying to give Ferris the benefit of the doubt as I read his book.
        I think that, generally speaking, this is right. But I also think that it depends on what kind of business we're talking about, and what "run" means, exactly.

        Even if you can't get it down to four hours, I'm sure that whatever improvements you make in the pursuit of that goal will cause your time spent reading his material to be well worth it.

        Best Regards,
        Jon
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I actually think Tim Ferriss is the one full of it with his 4-hour-a-week mantra. There's NO CHANCE you can run any type of business by working less than one hour a day, no matter how much you outsource. It's just ridiculous.
      Well if it is possible, Ferriss certainly isn't doing it. I see him everywhere self-promoting. He is working his A$$ off.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
        I take everything that Tim Ferriss says/writes with a grain of salt. What he is a master at, is being an internet marketer that appeals to hipster kids who preach his message. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you're able to catch some of those distinctions.

        He does have some great, bright ideas, but to anyone who truly believes in a 4 hour work week in a competitive market... good luck. :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
          To master most things you've got to put thousands of hours in.

          When you put a huge number of hours into something, you allow the compounding effect to work its magic.
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          • Profile picture of the author cjp231
            The more you work at something the more natural it gets. Until playing an instrument is merely and extension of your thoughts. They are no longer thinking about strings, notes, and finger position... Most musicians never get to this level.

            I don't have any scientific study to back up my thoughts but I believe that velocity of learning is more important than the total hours. What I mean is that I can practice archery for 10 hours a day for 10 days and learn more than I would by practicing archery for 1 hour per week for 6 months.

            However, the truly great achievers have velocity and endurance..ie Practicing 5+ hours a day for years.
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            • Profile picture of the author lostcyclist
              Originally Posted by cjp231 View Post

              However, the truly great achievers have velocity and endurance..ie Practicing 5+ hours a day for years.
              It's obvious that Ferris has thousands of hours invested in learning how to game the system. Once again, Gladwell was right

              I think its important to realize that the first level of accomplishment is reached after only 1,000 hours. That's 3 hours per day for a year. Easy.

              +1 for Velocity AND endurance!
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 figure is backed up by scientific
      research rather than pulling figures out of his ass that
      sound good and sell well.

      Anyone who is at the top of their field has put in the
      hours and deserves to be the expert.

      Even Tim Ferriss has busted his balls for over 10,000 hours.

      And there's a MASSIVE difference between being competent
      in a subject area or skill to be able to get good results and
      actually being masterful at it.

      Sure, it's possible to become proficient in most subjects
      with much less than a 10,000 hour investment. However,
      if you come up against someone who's done the time and
      earned their spurs, they'll wipe the floor with you.

      The people who are at the top of their field - have all put
      in the time.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author abugah
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post


        Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 figure is backed up by scientific
        research rather than pulling figures out of his ass that
        sound good and sell well.

        Anyone who is at the top of their field has put in the
        hours and deserves to be the expert.

        Even Tim Ferriss has busted his balls for over 10,000 hours.


        Shaun
        I agree with this.

        In addition, the concept of the 4-hour week is simply a marketing strategy. It certainly appeals to a wide range of the populace who don't seem to believe in hard work.

        Which one would sale more, the 4-hour week or the 70-hour week?

        Of course the easier it sounds the more appealing.

        In any case when you achieve mastery, I believe making a million dollars annually will be the norm. That's what the Beckhams, Tigerwoods, Abrahams and other experts make. So why settle for less?
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        I stopped reading once I hit your post, Shaun... no need to go further.

        Whilst a massive fan of Ferris, it does take ages to master a topic... more so depending on the complexity.

        There is a massive chasm between understanding and mastery.

        Sal

        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 figure is backed up by scientific
        research rather than pulling figures out of his ass that
        sound good and sell well.

        Anyone who is at the top of their field has put in the
        hours and deserves to be the expert.

        Even Tim Ferriss has busted his balls for over 10,000 hours.

        And there's a MASSIVE difference between being competent
        in a subject area or skill to be able to get good results and
        actually being masterful at it.

        Sure, it's possible to become proficient in most subjects
        with much less than a 10,000 hour investment. However,
        if you come up against someone who's done the time and
        earned their spurs, they'll wipe the floor with you.

        The people who are at the top of their field - have all put
        in the time.

        Dedicated to mutual success,

        Shaun
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    • Profile picture of the author LetsGoViral
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I actually think Tim Ferriss is the one full of it with his 4-hour-a-week mantra. There's NO CHANCE you can run any type of business by working less than one hour a day, no matter how much you outsource. It's just ridiculous.
      It is, but he still wants you to sell the dream. And he has done it successfully.

      It's one of those things that work in THEORY, but 10'000 hours of work actually are legit.

      However, it is not only putting in 10k hours of work. It is putting in 10k hours of DELIBERATE PRACTICE in ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE. That's where the key is.

      Doing the same thing over and over again for 10k hours will not make you an expert.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I actually think Tim Ferriss is the one full of it with his 4-hour-a-week mantra. There's NO CHANCE you can run any type of business by working less than one hour a day, no matter how much you outsource. It's just ridiculous.
      One word: rebills.
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      • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
        I was reading Gladwell's "Outliers" and the 4-hour work week last night.

        I think if one can combine what they teach, the results would be incredible in the long term.

        Ferriss talks about the Pareto principle, finding out which 20% of your efforts are producing 80% of your results.

        Find out which 20% of your efforts are producing 80% of your results, and then put 10,000 hours into that.

        The other 80% producing only 20% of the results ... outsource or remove it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kev_K
    To build on what Paul brought up, I think the definition of "expert" that you subscribe to determines your perception of the "10,000 hour" concept.

    To be world class, the concept applies. To get to a point where you know enough to legitimately help other people, and be better than a large majority, takes much less time.
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  • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
    10,000 hours - my first thought was, "That's it?".

    Look at how long it takes to become an expert lawyer, or surgeon, etc... most any professional field. When you count up the hours studying, residency, etc.... a lot more than 10,000 hours.
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  • Profile picture of the author andynathan
    tim ferris is not stopping malcolm gladwell. I think tim ferris is mention that malcolm gladwell is a personal hero in terms of writing.

    The 4 hour workweek is a principle, not an actual number that has to be completely abided to on a regular basis.

    What he talks about is following your passion. His is writing, so what is the problem with someone going all-out on something they love?
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I actually think Tim Ferriss is the one full of it with his 4-hour-a-week mantra. There's NO CHANCE you can run any type of business by working less than one hour a day, no matter how much you outsource. It's just ridiculous.
      Originally Posted by Christiani View Post


      He does have some great, bright ideas, but to anyone who truly believes in a 4 hour work week in a competitive market... good luck. :rolleyes:
      So you guys don't believe someone can own a business working an hour a day? I don't claim to be anywhere near that, in fact, I work about 80 hours a week. I DO believe you can in fact have a 4 hour work week. I know people that do, and it is entirely possible especially with a competent staff.

      I think the whole point is flexibility.. my goal isn't a 4 hour work week, but maybe cutting it down to 15-20.
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      • Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        So you guys don't believe someone can own a business working an hour a day?
        No, you CANNOT run/manage (let alone expand) any business working only one hour a day, no matter how much your outsource. The larger your outsourced team is, the longer it takes to organize/debrief them.

        To sum it up: the 4-hour per week ideal is B.S.

        Sure, your gotta outsource, optimize and apply the Pareto principle in order to reduce your work load to perhaps 20 hours a week or so, but 4 hours?!?! simply B.S.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          No, I cannot imagine how you can run/manage (let alone expand) any business working only one hour a day
          Fixed that for you.

          Your inability to understand something does not make it impossible.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Fixed that for you.

            Your inability to understand something does not make it impossible.
            This. It's definitely doable.

            Even I try to do this (mind you on a much smaller scale). Lets say my service businesses normally progress like this:

            1. Concept. The initial idea is turned into a working prototype.system and we test it extensively.

            2. Quick launch to see how much demand there is for this new service.

            3. If #2 works out good we go into scaling and adjusting things mode. Start training 1-2 people to run everything except marketing/customer support for me.

            4. We build up a large repeat client base and continue marketing while someone in my office does all the work for me. I take orders (nearly 100% automated) and answer support questions.

            I also deliver reports or whatever else needs to be done at the end of each project (this can also be automated, but I like to send a personal thank you email to every customer).

            It obviously depends on the scale of each service/offer, but it can definitely be done.

            Think like a business owner, not a contractor. Don't work yourself into the ground trying to do everything yourself. Some services/businesses simply cannot be scaled (or aren't worth the effort) and should be discontinued.

            Now keep in mind that I'm talking about actual service offers - lots of organisation, different tools and client communication required. Some other products are much easier to scale and put into auto-pilot mode.

            Now would I want to work 1 hour days? Nope, because I enjoy what I do. I'm going to continue building for as long as I feel passionate about business.
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          • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Fixed that for you.

            Your inability to understand something does not make it impossible.
            CDarlock,

            Here is my question to you: Do you run, manage and expand a successful online business working only 4 hours a week?

            Because if not, and I don't know ANYONE who does, we're discussing theories and hypothesis and I'm not interested in that. Thus, I will keep my statement in place: the 4-hour-a-week thing is day dreaming. No one (not even Ferris) works only 4 hours a week and grows a successful business. If you know anyone who actually pulls it off, point to real-life examples. Otherwise, it's all a fairy tale.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              Here is my question to you: Do you run, manage and expand a successful online business working only 4 hours a week??
              I'm not CDarlock, but this is just too easy, seriously...

              Another example:

              Early in the year we launched a business specializing in building high quality, money making mini-authority sites. We got a ****load of customers (in the hundreds). I ran things with 2 full time people helping me.

              So about 3-4 months in I realised that I cannot scale this thing properly (too many variables - writers, seo, site builders, clients...) and we stopped selling the service.

              But guess what? Those two full time staff members have been building sites like that for me on a weekly basis for the last 5+ months and we aren't going to stop. They know the process inside out by now and I don't need to supervise them at all. And yes the sites (most of them aren't being monetized yet) are making really good money for me.

              It's not that difficult.
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              • Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                I'm not CDarlock, but this is just too easy, seriously...

                Another example:

                Early in the year we launched a business specializing in building high quality, money making mini-authority sites. We got a ****load of customers (in the hundreds). I ran things with 2 full time people helping me.

                So about 3-4 months in I realised that I cannot scale this thing properly (too many variables - writers, seo, site builders, clients...) and we stopped selling the service.

                But guess what? Those two full time staff members have been building sites like that for me on a weekly basis for the last 5+ months and we aren't going to stop. They know the process inside out by now and I don't need to supervise them at all. And yes the sites (most of them aren't being monetized yet) are making really good money for me.

                It's not that difficult.
                And how long did it take you to conceptualize, create, launch, promote, etc that business? and how about training your staff? and how about expanding your business conceptualizing, creating, launching and promoting your NEXT project?

                Yes, I offload my projects to outsourced staff too once the project is fully implemented, tested, marketed and it runs by itself, but before reaching that point I can easily have put hundreds of hours getting it all ready. And another hundreds of hours for the NEXT project thereafter, etc.

                I will repeat the same question I asked CDarlock: do you run, manage and grow a successful business working only 4 hours a week? because if you don't, I repeat: you're talking fairy tales rather than actual reality.
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            • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
              I see you have been bashing the 4-Hour idea pretty good in this thread.

              If I remember correctly, and I may not, Tim actually had his $80,000 per month supplement operating on 2 hours Per Month of his time.

              Tim has explained the 4-Hour concept many times, in print, on his blog, and in videos. It's to the point now that I just leave people to work it out themselves, if they want to.

              Joe Mobley


              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              CDarlock,

              Here is my question to you: Do you run, manage and expand a successful online business working only 4 hours a week?

              Because if not, and I don't know ANYONE who does, we're discussing theories and hypothesis and I'm not interested in that. Thus, I will keep my statement in place: the 4-hour-a-week thing is day dreaming. No one (not even Ferris) works only 4 hours a week and grows a successful business. If you know anyone who actually pulls it off, point to real-life examples. Otherwise, it's all a fairy tale.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                Your concept of being a business owner seems to be very flawed. You keep mentioning the words "manage" and "run".

                You're not a manager. You don't manage a business.

                As an entrepreneur your goal should be to come up with ideas and products and then turn them into a business.

                Managers can be trained, things can run quite smoothly without you having to "run" it all yourself. Your only focus at this point is how to grow the business even more, and if you've chosen something in an easy to scale niche/field, that also shouldn't be a problem.

                If you "run" and "manage" it all yourself - you don't own a business. You've created a job for yourself and the people you employ. You're a contractor + hired help.

                You still "run into" the same problem-- Nobody is ever going to care about your business as much as you do. So, you're still babysitting a manager.




                Originally Posted by ezmystic View Post

                Ferris is 'the man'. To start a successful business will not take 10k hours, that kind of thing is to become a brain surgeon or something, I would say a couple of hours a day for 3-6 months and if you learn the right info you will be flying

                Yeah, this is the level of thinking that most of his followers are on.... or something.






                Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

                I see you have been bashing the 4-Hour idea pretty good in this thread.

                If I remember correctly, and I may not, Tim actually had his $80,000 per month supplement operating on 2 hours Per Month of his time.

                Tim has explained the 4-Hour concept many times, in print, on his blog, and in videos. It's to the point now that I just leave people to work it out themselves, if they want to.

                Joe Mobley

                Oh yeah, assuming anyone believes the figure, the next question is: Was that the net income? How long did it take to set it up, to get to that point?

                ...And, How long did it last?

                Personally, I could never aim that low.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              Here is my question to you: Do you run, manage and expand a successful online business working only 4 hours a week?
              Ooh, ooh, I want to play.

              Have you ever been in my house?

              Do you personally know anyone who has been in my house?

              It must be impossible to be in my house!
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Ooh, ooh, I want to play.

                Have you ever been in my house?

                Do you personally know anyone who has been in my house?

                It must be impossible to be in my house!
                Witty... yet you still failed to answer the question: "do create, run, manage and expand your business under the fabled 4-hour-a-week theory or are we still debating day-dreaming fairy tales?" a simple YES/NO answer should suffice really...
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                  a simple YES/NO answer should suffice really...
                  Do you still beat your wife?

                  A simple yes or no should suffice.

                  You presume that I want a four hour work week, because you're simply unable to figure out why anyone would defend the existence of something they don't want.

                  The notion that truth should be defended because it is true appears to frighten and confuse you, inspiring a fight-or-flight reaction. Perhaps you should examine that.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

          Love how a 3 min sound bite from a 1 hour plus presentation causes such a stir... kind of like how the news does it, lol.
          Good point, but I never heard of Tim being in IM or self-improvement before this thread-- I only knew of him as a sportfighter who played the weight trick. (For those who are unfamiliar, sport fights have weight classes, and the idea is to lose enough weight so that you can fight in a lower weight class against smaller guys. The weight test usually happens hours or even days before the fight, so you can then put the pounds back on and out-weight your opponent by quite a bit, giving you an unfair advantage in a fight full of rules.) I'm sure the steroids use didn't hurt either. Yes, I know he claims it was to recover from a shoulder injury, but I didn't use them when I tore my rotator cuff, and neither did any other fighters that I respect.

          Fighters who do this lose 100% of my respect immediately, and human behavior is a pattern. If they are doing this in one area of their life, they are probably doing similar things in all other areas.




          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

          Both Gladwell and Ferriss are legit at what they do, I am a fan of both.

          Are people so what is the word that I am looking for... dense, that they just get stuck on the "4" in the 4 hour work week? Wow?

          Guess the whole premise gets lost not in translation but in just the title of the book. (split tested via Adwords... lesson there)

          Plenty of examples of people living the 4 hr work week in the real world... at multi million dollar levels no less. Think the owner of a sports team works for the team? With very few exceptions... nope. That's the GM's job... the owner manages one person... the GM and maybe, maybe a couple of other high level execs... doesn't take much more than 4 hours with a competent team.

          Real estate is loaded with people doing the 4 hour work thing. Invest in commercial property and have a property management company run day to day ops. Hell, my landlord runs 8 companies and guess what? He ain't ever there. Property Manager does all that.

          He is a legit mutli millionaire. No screenshots though. Just plaques on walls of wings at hospitals with his name on it.

          There are more examples.

          Car dealerships. Principle owner owns 2/3 stake and does virtually nada all yr long and minority owner runs the show.

          How do you think guys that own 10 companies do it... Corporate chain of command style.

          Context though.

          Gladwell is talking about getting to the upper 1 percent and Ferriss is talking about getting to the upper 5 percent using radically different learning methods than convention tells us to.

          Even Ferriss gives context to what he is saying... thread title doesn't show that though.
          Again, to be fair, most of us never saw the "context" and judged one what was listed here. If he goes back and explains that he is only talking about reaching a "competent" or "good" level, that is just fine.

          As for the 4 hour work week, why aim so low? Just get elected to Congress and you can work 40 seconds ever 3 days, LOL... But seriously, the most successful people I've known sit on the board of directors for various companies and only go to a few official meetings per year, but they are always working... Going to meetings and networking, even when they don't want to. Even if you've got millions in the bank or in stocks, you are constantly having to protect it and wonder if you should move it around.


          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

          Haters are strong I guess.

          Shame.

          If only they listened to the message and not the 4 in 4 hour work week.

          Even Ferriss says that he works more than 4 hours (again in full presentation) he just spends 4 hours a week on the sh*t work and the other time on what he loves to do. Sometimes that means that he is promoting the hell out of what he is working on... and sometimes that means he is off in South America doing something ridiculous.

          That was the overall message of the 4 hour work week.

          Become capital and not labor. Management is labor in a nicer suit.

          Don't die waiting for the day when you can stop doing the sh*t work.

          Delegate it.

          Outsource it.

          Hire a manager that manages the outsourcing so all you have to do is manage one person.

          Hit the links. Go to Europe. Date your wife so she doesn't leave you. Raise your kids so they don't move 3K miles away and visit you once every 5 years.

          Life beyond who you are behind the desk. Or your avatar at Warrior Forum.
          I certainly don't hate anyone (until I get to know them, so that I can hate them for who they are, deep down inside ) but I think that a lot of people were just reacting naturally to the information they were exposed to here. If it was incomplete, that's not the fault of the people making their points, I mean, just look at the title of this thread.

          Not sure why you would assume that successful people here are not doing exactly that... Outsourcing and working far less. Or at least want to when they have the money.

          And I'm sure that most warriors choose their family over making money. If not, well... they should be. But in most cases this is not an "either-or" thing.



          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

          Guess that is why Ferriss is a 2 time NYT best seller, in demand speaker and semi famous and the haters are... I am not even going to go there.

          The sig links and banner ads speak for themselves.

          It's like the guy playing pick up in the park swearing that Michael Jordan wasn't sh*t.

          Yeah... right.

          Almost sounds like you are hating on the people here? If you wanted to constructively point out that we didn't know everything about Tim, that he has changed his cheating ways and there was more information that we should know, you probably could have done that.

          Personally, I know a lot of in-demand speakers who are over-rated and a lot of people who have been on the NYT "Best Seller" list who probably shouldn't have (which doesn't actually mean they sold the most copies, I've learned... I've actually come to respect the list as much as I respect companies who pay the BBB their protection money.) So I still haven't really seen any reason to go out of my way to learn from someone that hasn't earned my respect in the least.




          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

          I just had to add this to show something. You are 1 step away from the 4 hour work week and you don't even know it, lol.

          The minute, I mean the minute you hire a manager to mange your outsourcing... you are living the 4 hour work week... it is right in front of your eyes.

          So, by BS I hope you mean brilliant stuff.

          That one step is the FINAL PARADIGM SHIFT that you have to make... literally

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------

          Yeah for the cynics I know you have to train that manager for a few weeks.

          I also just have to point out the hypocrisy of the people calling Tim Ferriss a shameless promoter... in the WF really?

          The place with tacky ads all over the place selling e books with the same 4 traffic secrets that anyone can find on any blog, really?

          Or the sig links for pseudo science self improvement blogs... really?

          Pot calling the kettle black like a mfer in here.

          Back to my 6 months away from this place, lol.

          Hiring a manager to take care of your outsourcing is not as easy as you try to make it sound. You have to train him "for a few weeks"? Nobody is ever going to care as much about your own business as you do. The reality is that having a manager to take care of your outsourced employees just means you have a bigger baby in your day care.

          ***


          Wow, you are really not happy with this whole forum, maybe you do need some time away for a breather... Well Tim's next book is out soon, if it's not out already, (which I suspect is the whole point of his name being thrown across about 50 different forums right now, to stir up some attention in an attempt to gain some "viral" traffic) so that should give you plenty of time to read it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post


            As for the 4 hour work week, why aim so low? Just get elected to Congress and you can work 40 seconds ever 3 days, LOL... But seriously, the most successful people I've known sit on the board of directors for various companies and only go to a few official meetings per year, but they are always working... Going to meetings and networking, even when they don't want to. Even if you've got millions in the bank or in stocks, you are constantly having to protect it and wonder if you should move it around.
            Good point. You stated as it should be.

            Just why would someone aim to work for 4 hours a week?
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

    About that time I noticed my bull-shi-TOM-eter was pegged in the red. My breathing returned to normal and the anxiety passed.

    Sorry Malcolm, I'm not going for it. It might make a good catch-phrase for selling books of for businesses that bill by the hour, but not for me.

    And then I stumbled on to this video by Tim Ferriss of 4-Hour-Workweek fame.

    Joe Mobley


    Yet, under your username, it says, "Train like Marciano"?


    This time next year, few people will remember Tim Ferris's name, yet Malcom's books will still be selling by the thousands.


    Let me think... Which one would I want to emulate... Hmm....
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    • Profile picture of the author fin
      It sounds like some people think 10,000 hours will make you Tiger Woods.

      What about natural talent? If you don't have natural talent, you'll never be world class.

      I like Tim Ferris. I like the way he makes money from a cool blog and has become very successful. I still wouldn't take much of what he says serious.

      I've not read the 4-hour week yet. I might order it and see what it's about. I was put of because it mentioned outsourcing. Don't like that much.

      He's nailed his market spot on, though.
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      • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
        Originally Posted by fin View Post

        It sounds like some people think 10,000 hours will make you Tiger Woods.

        What about natural talent? If you don't have natural talent, you'll never be world class.

        I like Tim Ferris. I like the way he makes money from a cool blog and has become very successful. I still wouldn't take much of what he says serious.

        I've not read the 4-hour week yet. I might order it and see what it's about. I was put of because it mentioned outsourcing. Don't like that much.

        He's nailed his market spot on, though.
        At the risk of starting a fire storm - there's no such thing as 'natural talent.'

        The 10,000 Hour conclusion that Anders Ericsson came up was from a study of violinists - and the violinists were split by their teachers into two groups without their knowledge: those that would be good enough to be soloists with major symphony orchestras, and those that were 'only' good enough to be second violin in the same symphony orchestras.

        What Ericsson and his colleagues found out was the principle difference between the two groups was that the top group (and these people were all 18/19 year old students) had amassed approx 1500 lifetime practice hours more than the second group.

        Natural talent would suggest someone in the top group who had practiced significantly less than his peers - there was no-one like that. It came down to lifetime practice hours.

        Or take Susan Polgar - go on, Google her, there's a great documentary on her. Her Dad decided to raise a Chess Grandmaster as a scientific experiment - Polgar (and her sisters) were the result. All three of them were grandmasters. Their Dad could barely play chess....so no natural talent involved.

        Or take Jerry Rice - greatest American Footballer of all time. You know where he was picked on his draft year...16th. Reading how he went from 16th on the draft to Number 1 of all time is a fascinating story about what it takes to be great.

        There's a book called TALENT IS OVERRATED by Geoff Colvin....if you have an open mind and want to read about all this, that is your first port of call.



        Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Yet, under your username, it says, "Train like Marciano"?


      This time next year, few people will remember Tim Ferris's name, yet Malcom's books will still be selling by the thousands.


      Let me think... Which one would I want to emulate... Hmm....
      I disagree.

      I don't think Ferriss is a flash in the pan, and he didn't just become famous this year.

      He published his hit book almost 5 years ago now, and we are still hearing about him all the time.

      I hear his book referenced on this forum quite often.

      He came out with a new book or two, as well. He still updates his blog regularly and is actively speaking.

      He has a following, now. And it's not like he's going to go away by next year.

      Just because he hasn't been around as long as this Gladwell fellow doesn't mean he won't be.

      By the way, I've never heard of Gladwell until this thread.

      I've heard of the 10,000 hour thing, but you know what? His book where he talked about that came out after Ferriss's book. And that's all I know about Gladwell.

      But Ferriss, I've heard loads about him.

      In this field, I think we will naturally be more likely to know who Tim Ferriss is, rather than this other fella.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

        I disagree.

        I don't think Ferriss is a flash in the pan, and he didn't just become famous this year.

        He published his hit book almost 5 years ago now, and we are still hearing about him all the time.

        I hear his book referenced on this forum quite often.

        He came out with a new book or two, as well. He still updates his blog regularly and is actively speaking.

        He has a following, now. And it's not like he's going to go away by next year.

        Just because he hasn't been around as long as this Gladwell fellow doesn't mean he won't be.

        By the way, I've never heard of Gladwell until this thread.

        I've heard of the 10,000 hour thing, but you know what? His book where he talked about that came out after Ferriss's book. And that's all I know about Gladwell.

        But Ferriss, I've heard loads about him.

        In this field, I think we will naturally be more likely to know who Tim Ferriss is, rather than this other fella.

        Ed Whitacre Jr. told me to read The Tipping Point.
        I had an extremely stimulating conversation with Joe Broche about Blink.

        I wonder if Tim has anyone like that on his list promoting his works?

        Accellerated Learning-- Getting to know the fundamentals without wasting time on major mistakes-- is a perfectly acceptable idea. Marketing it as the fast way to become a master, however, is a going to hurt a lot of people, turning them into Jacks and Jills of Many Skills, but Masters of None.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by NY1 View Post

          Are people so what is the word that I am looking for... dense, that they just get stuck on the "4" in the 4 hour work week? Wow?
          Apparently.


          By the way, your post was excellent. Thanks for taking the time.

          Joe Mobley
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Hey, thanks for reminding me.

      Joe Mobley

      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Yet, under your username, it says, "Train like Marciano"?
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

        Hey, thanks for reminding me.

        Joe Mobley

        LOL!!! Nicely done.


        Well, I will bookmark this thread. In 50+ years we can come back to it and look to see if people know who Tim Ferriss is, or Rocky Marciano? And which one is considered more successful? And which one is still making money 43 years after he is dead? (More like 100 years by that time for Marciano)


        I know which one I would put my money on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Big Al
    I believe in the 10,000 hours (give or take 30 minutes).

    I compete at a professional level in a sport with less than 10,000 hours training but the gap between me and some of my peers who started earlier and maybe surpassed it is massive. Just because you haven't amassed 10,000 hours doesn't mean your rubbish, not an expert or professional... but it doesn't mean you've truly mastered and excelled into that top percentile either.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    So is Mr Ferris right and the other guy wrong? Where's his scientific proof? Where's the other guys proof 10,000 hours is needed to become an "expert" Why dead on 10,000 hours? Why not 9,752?

    Remember he's built his brand around "The 4 Hour Week" so everything he writes has to as to re-inforce this.

    Same as all "theories, beliefs.." Once you build your brand around a core belief their job is to brand that beleif with "selective" proof.

    So take it ALL with a huge dollop of salt.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Yeah he sold a dream.......like "lose weight doing no exercise and eating burgers al lday" I'll bet peopel would DIE to beleive that as well.

    To sum it up: the 4-hour per week ideal is B.S.
    Oh didn't little Timmy himslef admit he works a lot longer than 4 hours a week on average? LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Key to big money.

    Simply give people what they want....

    That's all the game is in a nutshell.
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  • Profile picture of the author focused
    The average person on the street would have little or no
    talent in the area of becoming a violinist and would never
    achieve a first chair position in a respected symphony orchestra.
    Likewise, there are many thousands of pro golfers making a living
    at golf clubs, and they have put in 10,000 hours plus, but the
    lack of raw innate talent will never allow them to be a regular
    member on the PGA tour or win a tournament there.
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    • Profile picture of the author bloomingrose
      I am no Tim Ferris groupie - like I am with Thich Nhat Hanh or Adrian Monk for example but I like some of his ideas. It seems that some of the people who have written in the forum , have not read his book. Some of his ideas are helpful in formatting the big picture of your life - thinking about getting experiences rather than possessions for example. And how you want to spend each precious moment- what are you in pursuit of? I have no interest in owning a villa in Italy, but a trip there would be awesome. Ferris discussed how people dissolved their objections to pursuing their dreams and were able to obtain them.

      There are lots of problems with his approach that I have to wrestle with. One is that he there is a colonial attitude that a lot of IM-ers have with their outsourcing that is not pleasing. I don't want to tell my grandkids that I got my Bugatti by taking jobs away from Americans and exploiting workers in other countries. That is why I was so down with Justin Wheeler's great charity WSO after the recent typhoon in the Philippines and proud that I am part of a community that can earn five-figures for charity in a weekend. I also am impressed by the guys at Adsense Flippers who investigated the conditions of their Filipino VA's - found out they were working in sweat shops - and changed it. As I develop my business, I also want to hire American as much as possible.

      And I knew what he meant by differentiating between virtuosos and people who just want good enough skills. I was married to a virtuoso mathematician - published in Sir Isaac Newton's journal by the time he was 28 and all like that - but there were a lot of things he could not do. Like social interactions. But he can afford to be a perfectionist in his field. I am a jack of all trades - master of none - ADD type like so many people in IM - Tellman Knutson has a site about it. I am hindered by perfectionism, and need to just keep chugging away.

      OK, just my two cents. :rolleyes: And of course even with outsourcing the 4 hour Workweek is just a Catchy Title. Matt Bacak it is more like the 4 hour sleep day. Tim Ferris is a marketer after all. Still - he speaks Japanese and I don't and I would love to know how he did it........
      All these questions of how to use time remind me of the big question asked by the poet Mary Oliver: "How will you use your one and perfect life?"
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  • Profile picture of the author RayW
    I agree with Gladwell's claim but I don't think it applies to everyone. As Time Ferris says in the video, most people do things the wrong way and all the trial and error takes up a lot of time when trying to master something. If you know how to avoid the common mistakes, learn what you need to and avoid the clutter, it's definitely possible to master something in less than 10,000 hours. Of course, not many people have this ability.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

      First of all I realize that the problem is with me. (Dang it! I hate it when that happens.) Or at least with my definition of mastering a subject.

      Remember when this was unfolding I was coming to realize that IM is a bigger pie than most people think it is. I was also finding out about what Nathan2525 mentioned.



      Only to then received the wonderful news of now I just need to put in my 10,000 hours. Great!

      I think what helped adjust my thinking a bit was Paul Wolfe's post on VIRTUOSO.



      I can definately see how becoming world-class in almost any endeavor will take a lot of T I M E.

      So, with apologies to Malcolm Gladwell and appreciation to you who posted here, I continue to evolve.

      Joe Mobley

      The great news is, you don't have to be a complete master to make decent money. You can make some money when you are competent, and even more when you are an expert. But after about 10,000 hours of dedicated, focused, organized work, you're going to find that you're making a huge amount of money, because you'll be producing much higher quality with what will feel like much less work.





      Originally Posted by Ray Wynn View Post

      I agree with Gladwell's claim but I don't think it applies to everyone. As Time Ferris says in the video, most people do things the wrong way and all the trial and error takes up a lot of time when trying to master something. If you know how to avoid the common mistakes, learn what you need to and avoid the clutter, it's definitely possible to master something in less than 10,000 hours. Of course, not many people have this ability.

      I think that there are some major mistakes that can be avoided in the learning of most skillsets. Let's take an example of something we are all doing right now: Most people begin typing with the "hunt & peck" method, when in fact if they were to just invest the time in learning proper hand placement and which keys to press with which fingers, they could relatively quickly get to the point where they can average about 55 to 70 words per minute, accurately.

      But, when learning things the "correct" way you will undoubtedly make plenty of typos.


      It is true that trial and error take up a lot of time-- but lessons are often learned best after the painful results of an error. In fact, I would argue that to some degree, if a person doesn't make mistakes, it would be very difficult to actually learn anything. All of those tens of thosuands of minute, subtle corrections to make things better, all of those countless hours of polishing and making things better through testing and adjusting every detail that you have control over-- that is what I would argue turns a person into a maestro.


      Returning to the typing example, it is true that you can effectively get your message across with the "Hunt & Peck" method. But you will never be able to keep up with someone who has learned the fundamentals and put in 1,000 hours of work, much less 10,000 hours.


      This has important implications for all of us as Internet Markters, or any kind of marketers. Because if you take a job somewhere, and you learn how to put ketchup and pickles on the burger and hand it out, nobody cares if you are a master. In fact, your pay check will probably never get very much bigger.


      But in sales & marketing, you might get excited that you can make a little bit of money with various "tricks" but the problem is that they don't last. It is so very much better to spend all of that time and effort (and probably money!) on building a solid foundation that will last you the rest of your life.


      Because, chances are that you need to make some money this year, but you probably want it to keep coming in for the next couple of decades, at least, right?
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
        This is what I came to realize. I could make some pretty good money long before the 10,000 hour mark.

        I may never become a world-class IM'er, whatever that means, but I can still make a pretty good lifestyle for myself.

        In addition, I enjoy the mental challenge/reward of turning key clicks into money.

        Joe Mobley

        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        The great news is, you don't have to be a complete master to make decent money. You can make some money when you are competent, and even more when you are an expert. But after about 10,000 hours of dedicated, focused, organized work, you're going to find that you're making a huge amount of money, because you'll be producing much higher quality with what will feel like much less work.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

          This is what I came to realize. I could make some pretty good money long before the 10,000 hour mark.

          I may never become a world-class IM'er, whatever that means, but I can still make a pretty good lifestyle for myself.

          In addition, I enjoy the mental challenge/reward of turning key clicks into money.

          Joe Mobley

          Yep, you can make a little money by taking short-cuts.

          But a world-class IMer is someone who works a lot less, makes a lot more, and it actually lasts, so that they don't have to keep learning new things and starting all over again. A world class IMer doesn't make $45K/mo for just a few months, then start over again somewhere else, skimming off the top everywhere he or she goes. (Not impressive.)

          And he hor she is known for the leaders that rise behind, not for the pawns that get paid what essentially amounts to minimum wage in exchange for doing all of the work.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    Have read a lot of things by Tim Ferriss and find him interesting, but have yet to see him master anything other than self-promotion.

    You can learn how to (INSERT SOMETHING HERE) in perfect conditions relatively quickly and anybody can "get lucky" and do something once. What happens when conditions aren't optimal though? Can you replicate it? What happens when something goes wrong? To me, that's what makes an expert.
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  • Profile picture of the author abugah
    There is no shortcut to 10,000 hours rule. It is very much in line with the law of sowing and reaping; cause and effect.

    In high school, I used it and moved from being no 44 out of 45 to finishing no 13 out of 43 in a school that was no 2 countrywide.

    I did not know it at that time. However, when I reflect back I know this is what catapulted me to success.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    What's the point of the 4 hour week to most? They's spend the other 50+ hours on here talking sh**.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    At the risk of starting a fire storm - there's no such thing as 'natural talent.'
    You are kidding right?

    So anyone whop picks up a tennis racket with enough time could win US Open?
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  • Profile picture of the author jeresteem99
    Wow!

    "In only 5 years of full time study I could master Internet Marketing. "

    Its like going back to school.
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    • Profile picture of the author capitalalchemy
      I respect both men, but don't really care for their information.

      I agree that it takes about 10,000 hours to master something. When I think back about the in-depth things that I have mastered, it's probably taken me about 5,000 - 10,000 hours to get good at those things.

      I don't appreciate Gladwell's book though because it's very negative. He has sort of an elitist mentality that comes across, as in "these people were destined for this thing and you should look else where".

      Tim Ferris is cool, but his books annoy me. He comes across as very arrogant to me (even though he's not an arrogant person). I feel talked down to when I read his books. His books are usually a generalized collection of tons of information. When I read the 4 Hour Workweek, I seriously questioned whether he had ever even seen an AdWords account before.

      He seems to just nab bits of information and put them together to have a complete book, rather than focusing on one thing. Every time I read something that he has written, I honestly feel like he does not really know what he's talking about.
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    • Profile picture of the author packerfan
      hmmmmm.... A guy who makes living telling people how to work 4 hours a week disputes a guy that actually did a ton of real research saying that just might not be true...

      No bias there.

      You need to realize that 10,000 hours we're talking about stuff like being a WORLD CLASS expert. Ya know, like play in the NBA, A big time symphony, whatever....

      If all you want to do is make a living marketing products online, then you don't need 10,000 hours.

      But ask yourself this. How many hours do you think a guy like Joe Polish has put into studying his craft? Grantee it's over 10,000 hours. I'd say he's an expert.

      The random dude's who sends you WSO emails with affiliate links... Well, he ain't no expert.

      The dude that developed the WSO system, different story.

      See the difference?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    On the topic of "natural talent" - it ABSOLUTELY does exist. I interview new people weekly and some definitely have talent, while others are simply average.

    Some of my staff pick up new skills within hours, while others require weeks of nearly full time supervision and even then they can't crack it.
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    • Profile picture of the author fin
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      On the topic of "natural talent" - it ABSOLUTELY does exist. I interview new people weekly and some definitely have talent, while others are simply average.
      Of course it does. It's silly to say that it doesn't.

      It would explain why a 12 year old is better at doing something than someone who has been doing it longer than they have been alive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    Anonymous Affiliate,

    In short: yes, of course.

    The website building business is just one example and I spend less than 4 hours/week on it. It's growing and is very successful.

    The fact that it took hundreds of hours to get it all going doesn't mean ****, because it will continue running without much supervision for years to come.

    I run multiple businesses, because I enjoy doing it. I could stop and just continue with what I have now, but I don't want to stop.

    I don't outsource important tasks. Having people work for you in house is much easier to manage.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    Your concept of being a business owner seems to be very flawed. You keep mentioning the words "manage" and "run".

    You're not a manager. You don't manage a business.

    As an entrepreneur your goal should be to come up with ideas and products and then turn them into a business.

    Managers can be trained, things can run quite smoothly without you having to "run" it all yourself. Your only focus at this point is how to grow the business even more, and if you've chosen something in an easy to scale niche/field, that also shouldn't be a problem.

    If you "run" and "manage" it all yourself - you don't own a business. You've created a job for yourself and the people you employ. You're a contractor + hired help.
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  • Profile picture of the author ezmystic
    Ferris is 'the man'. To start a successful business will not take 10k hours, that kind of thing is to become a brain surgeon or something, I would say a couple of hours a day for 3-6 months and if you learn the right info you will be flying
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  • Profile picture of the author rooze
    I've always considered Internet Marketing to be a form of gambling. Many people (not all) are drawn to it for the same reason they're drawn to a slot machine in Vegas, they think they can feed in a few quarters and strike it rich. And some do, so that keeps everyone coming back.
    Then there are those who get involved in IM with the real intent of putting in their 10,000 hours and becoming an industry 'whale'. They approach it like a real business in many respects and they're the ones you eventually see on TV on the Million Dollar Poker Challenge. (Just a analogy).
    I fought with the 10,000 hour concept as I was reading Tipping Point. I can see how it applied to the Beatles and the Violinist, but what about the millions who've put in their 10,000 hours, multiple times, and they're still working in obscurity? So it's much more than just how many hours you put into something, you need a latent talent which can be developed through repetitive actions and experience. Or just a sh*t load of luck, like Justin Bieber or Kylie Minogue
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    • Profile picture of the author bloomingrose
      Originally Posted by rooze View Post

      .
      I fought with the 10,000 hour concept as I was reading Tipping Point. I can see how it applied to the Beatles and the Violinist, but what about the millions who've put in their 10,000 hours, multiple times, and they're still working in obscurity? So it's much more than just how many hours you put into something, you need a latent talent which can be developed through repetitive actions and experience. Or just a sh*t load of luck, like Justin Bieber or Kylie Minogue
      Or how about this - spending 10,000 hours doing the wrong thing? That is what has kept many of us from making money - and in many ways is the Key to the Kingdom.

      And again - as I pointed out previously - it depends on what you want to do with your life
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    There is 1 spot left if you want to advertise on Tim Ferriss's blog.

    It will only cost you $4000 per month.

    www.adside.com/Pay-Per-Click-Ads
    (Not an affilliate link. )
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Wilson
    10k hours to be an expert and surely get a constant flow of cash that provide you with all the money that you need is not much. Most businesses take 2+ years to even get to a 0 and 5+ year to make some profit.

    I believe that you can achieve a lot by a lot less hours. It depends on your creativity tho.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
    Tim Ferriss talks about the Paretto Principle in his book i.e. The 80/20 rule. Given Ferriss' writings, he's not interested in becoming an expert. He's interested in spending the least amount of time learning to play the most popular song on piano, so people THINK he's an expert.

    Gladwell was simply making the point that a lot of times it isn't that people are prodigies, it's that they spend more time than someone else learning their craft.

    I like Ferriss' stuff overall, but he is all about show it seems. If he couldn't tell other people about all these "accomplishments", then I doubt he would be doing them.
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  • Profile picture of the author lauchlan
    Interesting discussion here. As many have stated, Gladwell's 10,000 hours is not about becoming competent or becoming an expert, it is about becoming world class best-in-field at what you do.

    I read some of the original research in this field during my Ph.D research, before Gladwell published his book, and it was interesting to see how selective Gladwell is about which pieces of research he chooses to focus on in his writing.

    I wrote a couple of pieces of critical deconstruction of Gladwell's work on my blog think-differently.org, if anyone's interested. The Tipping Point analysis is fairly detailed. I'd give you the links here but I haven't made enough posts here yet to be allowed to do so! Just google for think diffferently gladwell and review and you'll get the links if you want to visit them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    I'll want a degree if I was to spend 5 years studying IM lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author AngelInvestor
    I work 4h / week, but I spent the entire evening returning to this forum after a few years of absence. Is this work counted against the business? No, but it's 4h+ invested in something I am passionate about (building online businesses).
    What Timbo did (met him in Berlin a couple of years ago, like many others here on the forum probably) was apply his own principles - used Malcolm and gave himself more visibility mostly for free. Like the other dude (cannot remember his name), who complained how poorly Gladwell understood social media role (as Twitter/Facebook) in starting/fueling a revolution. A futile exercise, if you dig a little bit you'll find their agents are actually sharing accounts and these are common stunts to raise their profile.
    Hopefully some people here will start investing some time towards those 10k hours, though - getting a little worried how often making a grand a year from online is seen as a mark of success.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Osman_M View Post

      I'll want a degree if I was to spend 5 years studying IM lol.
      Who needs the paper when you should be able to get a bigger bank account that most college graduates?


      Originally Posted by AngelInvestor View Post

      I work 4h / week, but I spent the entire evening returning to this forum after a few years of absence. Is this work counted against the business? No, but it's 4h+ invested in something I am passionate about (building online businesses).
      Sure, if you love what you do, it's not "work" ...But if you're still trying to make money, and you're choosing to do it over something else that you would like to do even more, well even if it's fun, and you're passionate about it, that is still more than 4 hours of working for your business.



      Originally Posted by AngelInvestor View Post

      What Timbo did (met him in Berlin a couple of years ago, like many others here on the forum probably) was apply his own principles - used Malcolm and gave himself more visibility mostly for free.
      It worked both ways, I am sure.


      Originally Posted by AngelInvestor View Post

      Like the other dude (cannot remember his name),
      A vital key for long-term success, remembering peoples' names... It's a skill that would allow you to work less and less, but make more and more. Surely Tim teaches that at some point?


      Originally Posted by AngelInvestor View Post

      who complained how poorly Gladwell understood social media role (as Twitter/Facebook) in starting/fueling a revolution.
      Like Gladwell, I'm sure that social media played it's role, but it was just that-- a media. Just a way for people to express and organize something they were already feeling for decades.

      If not social media, it would have been something else.



      Originally Posted by AngelInvestor View Post

      A futile exercise, if you dig a little bit you'll find their agents are actually sharing accounts and these are common stunts to raise their profile.
      haha, is that so, "angelinvestor"?

      From Wikipedia on Tim: "He is a full-time angel investor " :p


      Originally Posted by AngelInvestor View Post

      Hopefully some people here will start investing some time towards those 10k hours, though - getting a little worried how often making a grand a year from online is seen as a mark of success.
      For many people who have to work for a living while building their business and don't have their parents' money to finance them through, and who have never had that much money before, it is a mark of success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
    Some people don’t even work 4 hours week, they work maybe one hour.
    It is all a question of choice.

    However, if you can work 4 hours a week and make a good living, then working 12 hours can give you a super luxurious life. Working 70 hours a week could make you a Bill Gates- Just kidding.

    The assumption being that there is a correlation between the number of hours worked and the income gained. At least that applies in McDonald’s.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    This is such a pointless discussion. Many people own very successful businesses that require less than a few hours/week to manage (or "babysit", lol). Thousands of people.

    So many of you are stuck in the "IM forum" mentality, not even sure how to explain this really...

    Open your mind and accept the fact that what you do every single day is less than 0.001% of what can be done and the things possible in terms of building a business. Listen to constructive arguments and stop repeating the same damned point over and over again. Discuss things and learn from others.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Ooh, ooh, I want to play.
      Uh-oh... Somebody is about to get burned.




      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      This is such a pointless discussion.
      Or, a very important one, depending on what your values are.



      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      Many people own very successful businesses that require less than a few hours/week to manage (or "babysit", lol). Thousands of people.
      Yes, that is true. But trying to sell beginners on the idea that some tricks and short cuts are gonig to get them to that point (and be able to maintain it), that smells like snake oil.




      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      So many of you are stuck in the "IM forum" mentality, not even sure how to explain this really...

      Open your mind and accept the fact that what you do every single day is less than 0.001% of what can be done and the things possible in terms of building a business. Listen to constructive arguments and stop repeating the same damned point over and over again. Discuss things and learn from others.

      Or instead, learn and master fundamentals that are proven to work, stop trying to run and fly before you can walk, and build a real business on a solid foundation. Then, once your business is paying for itself, and your bills are being paid, when you have some extra money you can expand and go through the very painful process of trying to find people who will work as hard for your business as you do, so that it remains as profitable as possible for as long as you live.


      Everyone will make their own choice, but the advice is repeated again and again because it is is a basic truth, and it cannot be shot down just because some hot shot "scoffs" at one of its most respected proponents.


      ...Really, the person who named this thread and posted the short clip of the video probably knew this conversation would ensue. I suspect this is just another example of controversial marketing (What?! Another classical tactic? Surely not!) used to promote Tim Ferriss's name so that people will research him and discover his latest book.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Or, a very important one, depending on what your values are.
        Not sure what you're trying to say here to be honest. I was referring to the crowd repeating that "there isn't anyone who owns a successful business working just 4 hours a week". Values? Really?

        Yes, that is true. But trying to sell beginners on the idea that some tricks and short cuts are gonig to get them to that point (and be able to maintain it), that smells like snake oil.
        Also not sure what you mean. Who is selling what to newbies? I don't believe Tim is actually targeting anyone in specific, every single person will take something different away from his seminars.

        Or instead, learn and master fundamentals that are proven to work, stop trying to run and fly before you can walk, and build a real business on a solid foundation. Then, once your business is paying for itself, and your bills are being paid, when you have some extra money you can expand and go through the very painful process of trying to find people who will work as hard for your business as you do, so that it remains as profitable as possible for as long as you live.
        Yeah, exactly what I've been saying all along - build a businesses, not a job for yourself.

        Everyone will make their own choice, but the advice is repeated again and again because it is is a basic truth, and it cannot be shot down just because some hot shot "scoffs" at one of its most respected proponents.
        Absolutely no idea how this addresses the post you quoted, but hey. lol

        Right from the very beginning here no one was talking about "newbies" or trying to con them. Once again - of course businesses take hard work and loads of knowledge to build.

        Please actually read the posts before picking out random sentences and quoting someone.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          Not sure what you're trying to say here to be honest. I was referring to the crowd repeating that "there isn't anyone who owns a successful business working just 4 hours a week". Values? Really?



          Also not sure what you mean. Who is selling what to newbies? I don't believe Tim is actually targeting anyone in specific, every single person will take something different away from his seminars.



          Yeah, exactly what I've been saying all along - build a businesses, not a job for yourself.



          Absolutely no idea how this addresses the post you quoted, but hey. lol

          Right from the very beginning here no one was talking about "newbies" or trying to con them. Once again - of course businesses take hard work and loads of knowledge to build.

          Please actually read the posts before picking out random sentences and quoting someone.

          I must have made a mistaken assumption that your saying the discussion was pointless included the entire discussion, not only whether or not the 4 hour work week is possible or not. I apologize.


          Yes, Values. Everything in life is a question of values. And the whole point of this thread's creation seems to be to promote Tim Ferris, to place his ideas over Malcom Gladwell's.

          My first impressions of Tim Ferriss were as a martial artist, and it seems that he is using the same tricks to promote himself now. Therefore, even though I have since watched the whole video (rather than the short clip posted here where he "scoffs at Gladwell") I am still finding it very difficult to get over my initial impression of Ferriss, because of my personal values.


          From what I have seen, Tim Ferriss and many others like him also seem to target Newbies and other broke people, selling clever sayings, Hope & Dreams. Seriously, successful people already know the reality of what it takes to be successful, and what it means to work less while still making great money. So why would he target them? Or are you saying that this "expert" marketer is not targeting anyone, and just blanketing the entire field of would-be business owners?


          You're right, I've read some things into this thread that were not actually written here, and if I am incorrect in my assumptions, then I apologize. But I've seen a lot of Tim Ferrisses come and go, on and off the Internet. So far, my impression of his business ideas is about the same as my impression of him as a martial artist and as a person: He isn't doing or saying anything that is actually new, special, or revolutionary. He is selling old ideas in a bright shiny box.

          Now I wonder who that is targeting?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    oneplusone, that's a great way to put it.

    Again, every single person is going to interpret their (Gladwell and Ferriss) books/seminars/ideas/teachings differently.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    I see a lot of talk about talent and luck. But what about desire? I have a book on the same shelf I keep my 4 Hour Work Week, Straight A's Never Made Anybody Rich.

    What separates the successful from the failures is the desire and willingness to do what is necessary to achieve a goal. People who learn early on to work for what they want are far better off than those to whom life is easily handed.

    Eventually every "inate talent" reaches a stumbling block and if they don't have the skill set to overcome it, they can easily get stuck. Think of all the prom kings and queens at your high school reunions reliving their glory years. And the geek no one paid the least attention who has made major bank.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

      I see a lot of talk about talent and luck. But what about desire?
      There are plenty of people with a ton of desire living off the state because they have no business sense.

      This is not a one-element mixture.

      You need committment, luck, a plan, time, knowledge - everything if you want long term success.
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      nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author andreaskam
    On the topic of Accelerated learning -

    Tim Ferriss has mentioned that it will covered in his next book. Will be one of the most interesting things to look into.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by andreaskam View Post

      On the topic of Accelerated learning -

      Tim Ferriss has mentioned that it will covered in his next book. Will be one of the most interesting things to look into.
      Only if you spend it learning the right things.
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      nothing to see here.

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