Undoubtedly. The amount of time it takes to master (i.e. become and expert at) anything is completely relative and totally a function of what "it" is.

The first time I heard that, I certainly didn't take it literally...that would just be silly.

First of all I realize that the problem is with me. (Dang it! I hate it when that happens.) Or at least with my definition of mastering a subject.

Remember when this was unfolding I was coming to realize that IM is a bigger pie than most people think it is. I was also finding out about what Nathan2525 mentioned.

Only to then received the wonderful news of now I just need to put in my 10,000 hours. Great!

I think what helped adjust my thinking a bit was Paul Wolfe's post on VIRTUOSO.

I can definately see how becoming world-class in almost any endeavor will take a lot of T I M E.

So, with apologies to Malcolm Gladwell and appreciation to you who posted here, I continue to evolve.

Joe Mobley

Yea I'd agree with this.
I love the 10,000 rule. It keeps me motivated.

That would be my guess too. Coming soon:

THE 4 HOUR MASTERY COURSE

I agree that it seems improbable to run a business on only 4 hours a week. I'm trying to give Ferris the benefit of the doubt as I read his book.

Well if it is possible, Ferriss certainly isn't doing it. I see him everywhere self-promoting. He is working his A$$ off.

Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 figure is backed up by scientific
research rather than pulling figures out of his ass that
sound good and sell well.

Anyone who is at the top of their field has put in the
hours and deserves to be the expert.

Even Tim Ferriss has busted his balls for over 10,000 hours.

And there's a MASSIVE difference between being competent
in a subject area or skill to be able to get good results and
actually being masterful at it.

Sure, it's possible to become proficient in most subjects
with much less than a 10,000 hour investment. However,
if you come up against someone who's done the time and
earned their spurs, they'll wipe the floor with you.

The people who are at the top of their field - have all put
in the time.

Dedicated to mutual success,

Shaun

It is, but he still wants you to sell the dream. And he has done it successfully.

It's one of those things that work in THEORY, but 10'000 hours of work actually are legit.

However, it is not only putting in 10k hours of work. It is putting in 10k hours of DELIBERATE PRACTICE in ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE. That's where the key is.

Doing the same thing over and over again for 10k hours will not make you an expert.

One word: rebills.

So you guys don't believe someone can own a business working an hour a day? I don't claim to be anywhere near that, in fact, I work about 80 hours a week. I DO believe you can in fact have a 4 hour work week. I know people that do, and it is entirely possible especially with a competent staff.

I think the whole point is flexibility.. my goal isn't a 4 hour work week, but maybe cutting it down to 15-20.

It sounds like some people think 10,000 hours will make you Tiger Woods.

What about natural talent? If you don't have natural talent, you'll never be world class.

I like Tim Ferris. I like the way he makes money from a cool blog and has become very successful. I still wouldn't take much of what he says serious.

I've not read the 4-hour week yet. I might order it and see what it's about. I was put of because it mentioned outsourcing. Don't like that much.

He's nailed his market spot on, though.

I disagree.

I don't think Ferriss is a flash in the pan, and he didn't just become famous this year.

He published his hit book almost 5 years ago now, and we are still hearing about him all the time.

I hear his book referenced on this forum quite often.

He came out with a new book or two, as well. He still updates his blog regularly and is actively speaking.

He has a following, now. And it's not like he's going to go away by next year.

Just because he hasn't been around as long as this Gladwell fellow doesn't mean he won't be.

By the way, I've never heard of Gladwell until this thread.

I've heard of the 10,000 hour thing, but you know what? His book where he talked about that came out after Ferriss's book. And that's all I know about Gladwell.

But Ferriss, I've heard loads about him.

In this field, I think we will naturally be more likely to know who Tim Ferriss is, rather than this other fella.

Hey, thanks for reminding me.

Joe Mobley

I am no Tim Ferris groupie - like I am with Thich Nhat Hanh or Adrian Monk for example but I like some of his ideas. It seems that some of the people who have written in the forum , have not read his book. Some of his ideas are helpful in formatting the big picture of your life - thinking about getting experiences rather than possessions for example. And how you want to spend each precious moment- what are you in pursuit of? I have no interest in owning a villa in Italy, but a trip there would be awesome. Ferris discussed how people dissolved their objections to pursuing their dreams and were able to obtain them.

There are lots of problems with his approach that I have to wrestle with. One is that he there is a colonial attitude that a lot of IM-ers have with their outsourcing that is not pleasing. I don't want to tell my grandkids that I got my Bugatti by taking jobs away from Americans and exploiting workers in other countries. That is why I was so down with Justin Wheeler's great charity WSO after the recent typhoon in the Philippines and proud that I am part of a community that can earn five-figures for charity in a weekend. I also am impressed by the guys at Adsense Flippers who investigated the conditions of their Filipino VA's - found out they were working in sweat shops - and changed it. As I develop my business, I also want to hire American as much as possible.

And I knew what he meant by differentiating between virtuosos and people who just want good enough skills. I was married to a virtuoso mathematician - published in Sir Isaac Newton's journal by the time he was 28 and all like that - but there were a lot of things he could not do. Like social interactions. But he can afford to be a perfectionist in his field. I am a jack of all trades - master of none - ADD type like so many people in IM - Tellman Knutson has a site about it. I am hindered by perfectionism, and need to just keep chugging away.

OK, just my two cents. :rolleyes: And of course even with outsourcing the 4 hour Workweek is just a Catchy Title. Matt Bacak it is more like the 4 hour sleep day. Tim Ferris is a marketer after all. Still - he speaks Japanese and I don't and I would love to know how he did it........
All these questions of how to use time remind me of the big question asked by the poet Mary Oliver: "How will you use your one and perfect life?"

The great news is, you don't have to be a complete master to make decent money. You can make some money when you are competent, and even more when you are an expert. But after about 10,000 hours of dedicated, focused, organized work, you're going to find that you're making a huge amount of money, because you'll be producing much higher quality with what will feel like much less work.






I think that there are some major mistakes that can be avoided in the learning of most skillsets. Let's take an example of something we are all doing right now: Most people begin typing with the "hunt & peck" method, when in fact if they were to just invest the time in learning proper hand placement and which keys to press with which fingers, they could relatively quickly get to the point where they can average about 55 to 70 words per minute, accurately.

But, when learning things the "correct" way you will undoubtedly make plenty of typos.


It is true that trial and error take up a lot of time-- but lessons are often learned best after the painful results of an error. In fact, I would argue that to some degree, if a person doesn't make mistakes, it would be very difficult to actually learn anything. All of those tens of thosuands of minute, subtle corrections to make things better, all of those countless hours of polishing and making things better through testing and adjusting every detail that you have control over-- that is what I would argue turns a person into a maestro.


Returning to the typing example, it is true that you can effectively get your message across with the "Hunt & Peck" method. But you will never be able to keep up with someone who has learned the fundamentals and put in 1,000 hours of work, much less 10,000 hours.


This has important implications for all of us as Internet Markters, or any kind of marketers. Because if you take a job somewhere, and you learn how to put ketchup and pickles on the burger and hand it out, nobody cares if you are a master. In fact, your pay check will probably never get very much bigger.


But in sales & marketing, you might get excited that you can make a little bit of money with various "tricks" but the problem is that they don't last. It is so very much better to spend all of that time and effort (and probably money!) on building a solid foundation that will last you the rest of your life.


Because, chances are that you need to make some money this year, but you probably want it to keep coming in for the next couple of decades, at least, right?

I respect both men, but don't really care for their information.

I agree that it takes about 10,000 hours to master something. When I think back about the in-depth things that I have mastered, it's probably taken me about 5,000 - 10,000 hours to get good at those things.

I don't appreciate Gladwell's book though because it's very negative. He has sort of an elitist mentality that comes across, as in "these people were destined for this thing and you should look else where".

Tim Ferris is cool, but his books annoy me. He comes across as very arrogant to me (even though he's not an arrogant person). I feel talked down to when I read his books. His books are usually a generalized collection of tons of information. When I read the 4 Hour Workweek, I seriously questioned whether he had ever even seen an AdWords account before.

He seems to just nab bits of information and put them together to have a complete book, rather than focusing on one thing. Every time I read something that he has written, I honestly feel like he does not really know what he's talking about.

hmmmmm.... A guy who makes living telling people how to work 4 hours a week disputes a guy that actually did a ton of real research saying that just might not be true...

No bias there.

You need to realize that 10,000 hours we're talking about stuff like being a WORLD CLASS expert. Ya know, like play in the NBA, A big time symphony, whatever....

If all you want to do is make a living marketing products online, then you don't need 10,000 hours.

But ask yourself this. How many hours do you think a guy like Joe Polish has put into studying his craft? Grantee it's over 10,000 hours. I'd say he's an expert.

The random dude's who sends you WSO emails with affiliate links... Well, he ain't no expert.

The dude that developed the WSO system, different story.

See the difference?

Of course it does. It's silly to say that it doesn't.

It would explain why a 12 year old is better at doing something than someone who has been doing it longer than they have been alive.

[DELETED]

Or how about this - spending 10,000 hours doing the wrong thing? That is what has kept many of us from making money - and in many ways is the Key to the Kingdom.

And again - as I pointed out previously - it depends on what you want to do with your life

Who needs the paper when you should be able to get a bigger bank account that most college graduates?


Sure, if you love what you do, it's not "work" ...But if you're still trying to make money, and you're choosing to do it over something else that you would like to do even more, well even if it's fun, and you're passionate about it, that is still more than 4 hours of working for your business.



It worked both ways, I am sure.


A vital key for long-term success, remembering peoples' names... It's a skill that would allow you to work less and less, but make more and more. Surely Tim teaches that at some point?


Like Gladwell, I'm sure that social media played it's role, but it was just that-- a media. Just a way for people to express and organize something they were already feeling for decades.

If not social media, it would have been something else.



haha, is that so, "angelinvestor"?

From Wikipedia on Tim: "He is a full-time angel investor " :p


For many people who have to work for a living while building their business and don't have their parents' money to finance them through, and who have never had that much money before, it is a mark of success.

Uh-oh... Somebody is about to get burned.




Or, a very important one, depending on what your values are.



Yes, that is true. But trying to sell beginners on the idea that some tricks and short cuts are gonig to get them to that point (and be able to maintain it), that smells like snake oil.





Or instead, learn and master fundamentals that are proven to work, stop trying to run and fly before you can walk, and build a real business on a solid foundation. Then, once your business is paying for itself, and your bills are being paid, when you have some extra money you can expand and go through the very painful process of trying to find people who will work as hard for your business as you do, so that it remains as profitable as possible for as long as you live.


Everyone will make their own choice, but the advice is repeated again and again because it is is a basic truth, and it cannot be shot down just because some hot shot "scoffs" at one of its most respected proponents.


...Really, the person who named this thread and posted the short clip of the video probably knew this conversation would ensue. I suspect this is just another example of controversial marketing (What?! Another classical tactic? Surely not!) used to promote Tim Ferriss's name so that people will research him and discover his latest book.

There are plenty of people with a ton of desire living off the state because they have no business sense.

This is not a one-element mixture.

You need committment, luck, a plan, time, knowledge - everything if you want long term success.

Only if you spend it learning the right things.