This Post Will Probably Get me Banned...

66 replies
I'm not going to name names...

...But I am going to name business practices. And if the shoe fits...

I'm mainly an off-liner. My clients are typically in the $5 to $10 million range. I've used PPC extensively for clients and personal projects. I'm a dabbler when it comes to IM specifically. A newbie just like many here.

Out of curiosity and a low price point, I purchased a WSO from someone who is clearly looked up to in this community.

Of course, there was an upsell. No big. Good business. But then came the down-sell. Not to a different product, not to a stripped down offer -- but for the same product, plus an extra bonus. What?

So, you've just trained me to 1) Never believe your price. 2) Not to ever trust you. 3) To make sure I NEVER buy your upsells when first presented and 4) you look at the members here as SUCKERS. Pawns to be used once and discarded. Do you seriously think word won't get around and enrage people who paid full price when if they had just waited they would have gotten a 30% discount plus other bonuses.

I should state your names just to upset your customers here.

Anyway, you've done something worse...

You've damaged my trust of all warriors here making upsell/down-sell/OTO's. How can I now not question any of these offers made? So, you've hurt the community trust of reputable, honest Warriors making offers.

Then, to even do more damage to your reputation with this customer...

I check on twitter, and you've looked me up and spammed my twitter account with a hush-hush, shhhhh, don't tell anyone offer using a bogus twitter account.

Amazing.

Amazing that someone smart enough to pull all this off doesn't have the insight to see the life-time value of a customer. Amazing that folks with these business practices are actually looked up to in these forums. Amazing that there are any suckers left if these practices are common.

I believe there are smart, good, hardworking, high-value Warriors here.

And I believe their reputations are damaged by folks who engage in these practices.

And I believe that the good warriors who come here for advice, use hard-earned money to risk on an offer hoping that "this one" has something they need to do better in life -- deserve better !
#banned #post
  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Despite the fact that up sells and such do make people more money I sense that many buyers here are growing tired of this tactic. I'm a vendor here and a buyer and I personally am growing weary of it so I know others are as well.

    My next release will have TWO versions of my product and I think I'm just going to put both on the same page and let people decide instead of forcing them down some tunnel.

    May it hurt my sales? Probably! Do I care? Nope!

    Disclaimer: My Zen product does have an up sell but I've already sold many so I'm not changing the sales funnel. = )
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnieT
      I have to agree. As a felllow newbie to the IM world, I've started reading as many Free WSO as I can (I think at last count it was over two dozen), but have only found about 5 that I could really consider gems.

      If your free WSO isn't worth the time it took to read it, I'm going to unsubscribe the next time I hear from you. If you want to keep me (and others) on your list, tell me something unique that I can't get from reading this forum for 20 minutes.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShayB
        Originally Posted by JohnieT View Post

        I have to agree. As a felllow newbie to the IM world, I've started reading as many Free WSO as I can (I think at last count it was over two dozen), but have only found about 5 that I could really consider gems.

        If your free WSO isn't worth the time it took to read it, I'm going to unsubscribe the next time I hear from you. If you want to keep me (and others) on your list, tell me something unique that I can't get from reading this forum for 20 minutes.
        If all you are looking for is free info, why should a marketer want to keep you on his/her list? (Just curious - people pay a service for mailing lists, and that price depends on the number of subscribers.)
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnieT
          Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

          If all you are looking for is free info, why should a marketer want to keep you on his/her list? (Just curious - people pay a service for mailing lists, and that price depends on the number of subscribers.)
          I'm not JUST looking for free info, but if the free info you provide isn't interesting, then I don't have high hopes for your list.
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    Upsells have been going on forever. The downsells too. Look at most clickbank products. If you leave the page, they stop you and try to offer the product for $10 off. Classic downsell.

    I think the reason for the concern with WSOs is that sellers are starting to game the system too much. They know that on the WSO forum if you charge over $17, you're at the tipping point. So the solution is put a cheap thing in front of your more expensive product and call it an "upsell".

    It's happening more and more but that's what marketers do. IF they think they've lost you, you get the last ditch effort of a downsell for a cheaper price. You can out the person, but I doubt it would matter. It's been going forever.

    Also it goes on more and more because it works. Sign up to warriorplus.com and you can see how many sales a products oto and downsells get. (if they track through there for that). People do them.

    I can totally appreciate why you'd be po'd though. If i bought something or $xx and then my buddy gets it for $x I'd be annoyed.

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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
    While I completely understand and emphasise with you Robert, have you posted your feelings on the WSO thread?
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  • Profile picture of the author wfhblueprints
    Understand where you are coming from and unfortunately it does the industry no favors when "Respected" individuals do that type of thing...

    To be honest I am not against upsells and downsells....when you offer value and they can stand on their own as a product.....but to offer the same product at a cheaper price and with additional bonus is disgusting.

    These are the people that give this business a poor reputation...

    Robert I would recommend making noises on the WSO thread...it would act as a deterrent to other marketers who may consider using this approach.

    If it is left unchecked we run the risk of seeing it creep into our business more often.

    Regards

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Sure, you have the right to modify the product and/or price.

      Is it smart to do that in the same sales channel? Sometimes not.

      I run periodic sales on my jewelry site. Some of the discounts are pretty juicy. Do I send the sales email to the people who bought that product and paid full price within the last 90 days?

      Nope.

      No one wants to think they're a sucker. Basic human nature. Marketers need to understand that.

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    • Profile picture of the author Treborrevo
      1) I have no [zero, nada, zilch] problem with upsells, down sells etc. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with it.

      2) The seller has every right to do whatever he or she pleases.

      3) if the seller chooses, in a close community of trust, to offer the same product, at a discount, with bonuses -- as the one he just tried to sell at a higher price a click earlier, I have a right not to trust them, to let others know not to believe the first offer, and to not want to business with this person.

      4) if that person then Twitter spams me with bogus twitter accounts offering me psssst-secret deals on their stuff supposedly coming from a third party -- well... I have a right to believe I'm dealing with a reptile.

      Seriously, this is accepted practice here and these people are looked up to as heroes in the forum cause they make a sale?

      I'm out a few bucks. Don't need to get a refund. But they are out a customer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Robert,

        First, I'd like to ask ... Why did you think you'd get banned for this? You stated facts, left the names out, and did something quite uncommon. You made it clear that your reaction was a personal preference, rather than accusing the seller of scamming.

        I wish more people would address issues in this way.

        Now, on to the suggestion of "outing" the practice in the WSO thread... I don't see a problem with that. You bought the original product, and thus have the right to comment on the sales process. However, I would recommend that you stick to the facts, and nothing else.

        "I bought this product, and was presented with an upsell. When I didn't take it, I got an offer for the same upsell product with extra bonuses, at a lower price."

        No name-calling, no arguments, and no debates over the seller's process. Just the simple statement of fact.

        I can't speak for the other moderators, but I'd leave that comment in a WSO thread. Especially if it was accompanied by a similarly reasonable review of the product you had purchased.

        As long as the products advertised are what they're claimed to be, I don't see anything unethical about the process you've described. Stupid, maybe. Especially in a community where the members talk to each other about their experiences. And more so where there are affiliates involved and you stand to lose a lot of them in future releases because of the hostility this sort of practice brings out in some people.


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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    @ Robert,

    I'm not sure I follow you here. When did the downsell occur? During the purchase? After the sale? Was it sent via autoresponder?

    Secondly, I'm not clear on that one point exactly. It was the same exact product with a bonus, I get that part, but you called it a "down sell". Was it for a lower price? Just looking for clarity.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author jphilips
    Originally Posted by Christiani View Post

    Not sure if I missed it in your post but - why didn't you just get a refund like most people do?

    I'd be weary about products that do not offer a refund therefore I don't buy them. Yet the concept seems pretty simple to me if you are not happy.
    I think the point of the OP was to bring to light a practice and get comments on it; not to resolve a billing dispute.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
      Originally Posted by jphilips View Post

      I think the point of the OP was to bring to light a practice and get comments on it; not to resolve a billing dispute.
      The practice seems a bit less than honest to me, but it's not my reputation on the line with the buyer.

      The issue as I see it, is that they clicked to order, passed on the upsell (no problem, happens to a lot of upsells), but then apparently were choosing NOT to complete the purchase, so they got offered a bonus and a discount on what they just decided not to buy?

      If I am understanding the OP correctly, the complaint is that people who went through the sale normally (i.e. never decided to back out) paid more while the person who decided to back out, gets a better price on the same produce with additional bonuses added on.

      TO ME it would make more sense to offer the bonuses with the initial purchase, and if they want to back out of the purchase, offer to give them a discount WITHOUT the bonuses, because if price is the deciding factor, losing the bonuses might not be that big of a deal.

      Just my thoughts.
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      • Profile picture of the author Treborrevo
        Originally Posted by Scott Burton View Post

        The practice seems a bit less than honest to me, but it's not my reputation on the line with the buyer.

        The issue as I see it, is that they clicked to order, passed on the upsell (no problem, happens to a lot of upsells), but then apparently were choosing NOT to complete the purchase, so they got offered a bonus and a discount on what they just decided not to buy?

        If I am understanding the OP correctly, the complaint is that people who went through the sale normally (i.e. never decided to back out) paid more while the person who decided to back out, gets a better price on the same produce with additional bonuses added on.

        TO ME it would make more sense to offer the bonuses with the initial purchase, and if they want to back out of the purchase, offer to give them a discount WITHOUT the bonuses, because if price is the deciding factor, losing the bonuses might not be that big of a deal.

        Just my thoughts.
        Precisely. Actually purchased. Got an upsell. Declined. Got offered the upsell plus bonuses for 30% off. So, 1) why would I ever take advantage of the first upsell from these players again? 2) why wouldn't I warn others not to buy the upsell - wait for the better deal on the downsell, 3) I would now not take advantage of others upsells figuring they are playing the same game - say no, get it for less 4) start getting bogus twitter spam offering me secret deals. A down sell with stuff stripped out would make sense. A down sell offering even more for a cheaper price is long-term business suicide.

        I'm a babe in the IM world -- but not a babe in the general bus. world. This stuff would (and does) ruin a companies reputation fast. Here, it's apparently looked up to as good business practice given the comments by others on the WSO.

        Not whining -- just amazed.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Scott Burton View Post

        The practice seems a bit less than honest to me, but it's not my reputation on the line with the buyer.

        The issue as I see it, is that they clicked to order, passed on the upsell (no problem, happens to a lot of upsells), but then apparently were choosing NOT to complete the purchase, so they got offered a bonus and a discount on what they just decided not to buy?

        If I am understanding the OP correctly, the complaint is that people who went through the sale normally (i.e. never decided to back out) paid more while the person who decided to back out, gets a better price on the same produce with additional bonuses added on.
        Is this what the OP is talking about? I've seen a lot of those pages and if I'm actually thinking of buying, I normally back out to see if there's an offer being made when I back out. lol.

        Personally never tried this one myself and wouldn't, but it doesn't offend me that someone is making a last ditch effort to get the sale.
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        • Profile picture of the author jivens
          Banned
          Dido. I always back out to see if I can get a deal. Sometimes there's three or four!

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Is this what the OP is talking about? I've seen a lot of those pages and if I'm actually thinking of buying, I normally back out to see if there's an offer being made when I back out. lol.

          Personally never tried this one myself and wouldn't, but it doesn't offend me that someone is making a last ditch effort to get the sale.
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by Jessica7777 View Post

            Upsells and downsells have been around since marketing came into existence. There is nothing new about these tactics. If you don't like them, you don't like them, simple as that.
            Wow, that's a really good argument as to why you should use them... NOT!

            Originally Posted by KitschWitch View Post

            However in the off-line world, this tactic is common (especially in some countries), is not so annoying in that context and even culturally expected.
            That's why those who DON'T use tactics like that are able to stick out like a sore thumb and rise above all the other white noise. Have you ever wondered how to gain instant rapport with your audience? Do the exact opposite to what everyone else is doing to them. No one remembers the sheep.
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  • Profile picture of the author lukedidit
    To be very frank after being here for a month I would pay a money to not see forum signatures and filter out posts with WSO in.

    Its past saturation point for me, and putting me off what is other then that great forum. There are more chiefs then indian's and it seems everyone's grandma and their dog has is about to release one.

    I really like it here, its way better then [deleted], but I am also keeping an eye out for somewhere else perhaps a little smaller and with less sales stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hi Robert,

    It's a shame you had such a bad experience with someone who you previously considered respectable and trustworthy.

    Unfortunately, this community is like all communities of people and we come in all shapes and sizes, and there are some people who think that like is a battle and you have to be out for number 1, and they treat our community as just a place to harvest in any way that can make them short term dollars.

    I've lost track of the number of times I've questioned someone's strategy to be told "it increases conversion rates" like that justifies any behaviour.

    I guess it's an important lesson that you learned from this experience, but hopefully it won't completely ruin your faith and trust that there are still some good people around.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    You've damaged my trust of all warriors here making upsell/down-sell/OTO's. How can I now not question any of these offers made? So, you've hurt the community trust of reputable, honest Warriors making offers.
    IMO if you let ONE person decide your future business relationships with a bunch of other people, you better grab a good shell to hide next 100 years.

    Just sayin'
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    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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  • Profile picture of the author InWait
    I actually first came to this site a few years ago. After what I saw here (in this case it was "warriors" mocking a new guy who complained about not getting adequate instructions for one of the more popular products) I wouldn't have bothered coming back had it not been for reputable marketers consistently bringing this site up. Sometimes you just have to be able to see far enough past the garbage to find the good stuff.

    The whole getting a discount thing by declining is actually nothing new. Whether we like it or not it's a very common practice in the online world. What irritates me is when it takes two to three attempts (or more!) just to get away from the sales page as every time I try to leave I get a new "insanely unbeatable offer!". But they obviously work.

    Though with the way things have been going it probably won't be too long before the FTC (or the equivalent in other countries) start banning that type of online business practice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    Upsells and downsells have been around since marketing came into existence. There is nothing new about these tactics. If you don't like them, you don't like them, simple as that.
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  • Profile picture of the author AirForceVet
    Funny how I just commented on a topic titled "Do people really think high post count = successful, reputable and correct?" This is a prime example of "Respect Gone Wrong". It's not enough to see a high post count and a lot of "thanks" and automatically assume that an opportunity is viable. Do your research and make sure that the opportunity is real. Taking a risk on an unknown might be the best thing you ever did.
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  • Profile picture of the author Greenfatman
    I learnt much more getting info from the posts than buying WSO, that's why I love you guys ...Ask for refound, unsubscribe from the list, come back here and make a real comment about your experience with the product, I bet many of us will think twice in purchase the product.

    Regards,
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidTT
    yeah theres a lot of guru-wannabes in here and borderline scam stuff you can find in the wso. Thats why I specifically mention that im no guru or make 21490375832 dollars in my wso. I know quite a few IMers who are very successful in this business and I basically sell what they taught me and what works for me.

    Basically, forget all that hype. If someone is being honest with you and sound honest, its much better than all that hyped up selling stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author ericbryant
    I think it's all in a day's personal development. Two ways. One, I learned to never buy, always close the browser tab, etc., just to see what comes up for discounts. That was part of MY personal development. Two, as long as I don't go bankrupt buying something AND I get some value, so what? I learned something that hopefully I executed and converted to cash in my bank account. Oops I could have saved 30%. So what?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      When you offer someone a product at a lower price one click later than you were offering it to them for one click earlier, two things happen ...

      (i) You devalue that product in the eyes of your potential customer; and ...

      (ii) You cause resentment and ill-will toward yourself in the eyes of a significant proportion of your readers/viewers/subscribers (and that translates into loss of future business);

      [And (iii) (if you're a ClickBank vendor, or something similar) you immediately lose the interest of many of the 10% of potential affiliates out there who could have brought you 90% of your potential sales].
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      • Profile picture of the author DavidTT
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        When you offer someone a product at a lower price one click later than you were offering it to them for one click earlier, two things happen ...

        (i) You devalue that product in the eyes of your potential customer; and ...

        (ii) You cause resentment and ill-will toward yourself in the eyes of a significant proportion of your readers/viewers/subscribers (and that translates into loss of future business);

        [And (iii) (if you're a ClickBank vendor, or something similar) you immediately lose the interest of many of the 10% of potential affiliates out there who could have brought you 90% of your potential sales].
        wow first time I see you posting a short comment! :p

        still very helpful and useful tho as always!
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    Why didn't you put this on the sales thread for this product. If you were that pissed off, and so you should be in my opinion, I would have pointed it out to those that followed me. That might have got me an infraction or worse, but I agree that this was not very ethical to do.

    This is similar to the pop up you get with many Clickbank products, or used to. I don't look at them any more so not sure if they still do it. But they offer you a $10 discount if you try to leave. I used to leave, just to see if there was a discount, if I was at all interested. They kind of pissed me off to think they would try to fool me into spending $10 extra if they could, and if they couldn't sell me, then offer me the lower price. Treat me like a fool and try to get $10 extra out of me. Uncool.
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      Why didn't you put this on the sales thread for this product. If you were that pissed off, and so you should be in my opinion, I would have pointed it out to those that followed me. That might have got me an infraction or worse, but I agree that this was not very ethical to do.

      Uncool.

      You make a good point but there's no reason for an infraction as long as you are honestly reviewing your buying experience without making it personal.

      It's fair game in that sales thread! As long as people review honestly, there's no problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author AngelInvestor
    interesting you're saying this - I used to buy products here a few years ago and they were decent for the price (I am very understanding with amateurs, especially those who hire on elance to create short-lived products). but upon my return to WF I had a similar experience to yours - finding the *exclusive WSO* I wanted to sample cheaper somewhere else with exactly the same bonuses. this is not helping maintain a tight community, more like letting the leeches in. my 2c...
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Upsells have been around for a long time but so has aids - so that's no argument and it annoys me when I hear people say that. "They've been around for a long time and McDonalds use them... so what's the problem?"

    What I am noticing more and more of is people hitting the WSO forums with cheap products they put together only with the sole intention of getting people to purchase their more expensive program on the back-end. This is obvious the moment they offer 100% commissions on the front-end.

    The WSO forum has always been a special offers forum. I fear people are just bringing their products they are selling elsewhere to this marketplace and creating quick and cheap front-end offers, offering 100% commissions, just to get people through to their normal back-end offer and to get around the rules that it must be a special offer.

    Is this the type of thing the WSO forum was built for? In essence it's not really a special offer because your customers are having to buy the cheap lead magnet you have created and then the back-end product on top of that - the product they could have just purchased elsewhere without wasting money on the front-end.

    I'm not stupid, I know upsells have been used for a long time and in a lot of cases they will increase the bottom line significantly. But a lot of times they are also used just to cover up a poor salesman who can't persuade people to purchase their regular offer.
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    • Profile picture of the author KitschWitch
      I agree that this is an annoying trend in on-line sales.

      However in the off-line world, this tactic is common (especially in some countries), is not so annoying in that context and even culturally expected.

      I'm thinking about the practice of *bargaining* or haggling, as happens at markets in many countries, in shops in developing countries, and perhaps even when you buy a car in western countries.

      The price goes down, bonuses are added in, it's all part of a game. Perhaps it works better IRL because it's face-to-face (therefore improvised and unique to the interaction) and not just a pre-written electronic script that everyone sees. Perhaps the latter seems to imply a greater degree of cynicism?
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I fear people are just bringing their products they are selling elsewhere to this marketplace and creating quick and cheap front-end offers, offering 100% commissions, just to get people through to their normal back-end offer and to get around the rules that it must be a special offer.
      You mean... you actually suspect people of trying to exploit the system for money, without regard for their customers?!

      Heaven forfend!

      I've been kind of sitting back and watching the WSO section to see what happened and let it settle down to something stable.

      And what we have now is a stable trickle of people who have no experience and no credibility posting for the first time in the main internet forum to say "I have written a WSO."

      The WSO forum isn't "special" anymore. It hasn't been for about a year now. It's become exactly the "buy my stuff" forum the rules themselves say it isn't.

      It's not going to recover. It's become this new thing, and that's what it is now. It might change again... it's certainly changed in the past... but we're never going to get the old WSO forum back.

      It's not a Bad Thing. It's just the New Thing. If your business was using the WSO forum, you either figure out how to fit the New Thing into your business, or you walk away and take it out of your business.

      Maybe it should be renamed... Warrior Sucker Offers?
      Worthless S#!t Online.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Caliban,
        The WSO forum isn't "special" anymore. It hasn't been for about a year now.
        It still is in one sense: You can't sell the same product here for the same or higher price as the general public. Beyond that... It's been much more than a year since it's been what it started out as.

        That was as inevitable as any other change. This one was fueled by a number of factors. Some of them were straight technology.

        Others were hybrids, like the development of the WSO Pro system, which drives in a ton of people who have no history with the community, and don't know or care what the traditions were. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just doing business for them, like any other marketplace.

        The biggest factors are the sheer speed at which the membership is growing and the much higher percentage of members selling or promoting WSOs. Given the hype around so many of the "Make millions in the WSO forum" products, and the extremely low cost of entry, that's not going to slow down any time soon.

        I said over a year ago that this place was no longer a community with a semi-private marketplace for the members. It's a large-ish public marketplace with an attached community. The growth in discussion area threads looking for advice about WSOs is just a little more evidence of that.

        I could make suggestions about how to adjust that a bit, but they'd be pointless. The majority of the traffic in that section no longer comes from members browsing while they're here to visit. It's from outside visitors who would never see my comments.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          You can't sell the same product here for the same or higher price as the general public.
          Two remarks, if I may:
          - most WSOs are made only for this marketplace and they are not sold anywhere else
          - never seen that rule enforced (i.e. was there any WSO closed/removed because it was sold somewhere else for the same price? - just curios)
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Istvan,
            (i.e. was there any WSO closed/removed because it was sold somewhere else for the same price? - just curios)
            Yep. They're usually moved to the classifieds section. Just like non-original PLR material that's posted as a WSO. If the poster has a history of doing that stuff, we delete the threads.

            We don't announce it. We just do it.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              We don't announce it. We just do it.
              I fully understand that part
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              • Profile picture of the author RB
                I quit unsubscribing from this type of vendor list. Instead, I just classify it as junk and Outlook puts it in the appropriate junk folder.

                Now, just how valuable is the vendor's huge list that isn't as huge (or potentially responsive) as they think?

                It costs more than just a lost customer when a vendor pursues a customer a vendor doesn't know he has lost, nor will ever get.
                RB
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                One of the reasons I've decided to retire is things like this. I have always hated
                the rep that marketers get because of scum bag low lives like the people you're
                talking about, but lately, it just seems to be getting worse and worse.

                I'm ashamed to tell people I'm an Internet marketer.

                Hopefully, I won't have to for much longer.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  One of the reasons I've decided to retire is things like this. I have always hated
                  the rep that marketers get because of scum bag low lives like the people you're
                  talking about,
                  Real catch 22. Its the people like you who can't stand the stench that could help to clean it up but they don't stick around precisely because they can't take the stench. Which leaves the market with people who don't mind the stench enough to even bother.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Real catch 22. Its the people like you who can't stand the stench that could help to clean it up but they don't stick around precisely because they can't take the stench. Which leaves the market with people who don't mind the stench enough to even bother.
                    The thing is, I'm starting my 9th (and hopefully last) year online as a marketer.
                    I thought I could make a difference. I can't, not really. Each year, more and
                    more, I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle. Eventually, you just get to the point
                    where you say F it.

                    Sure, if I still needed the money, I wouldn't be looking to sell all my domains
                    and products. I'd keep at it, somehow. But I don't have to so why should I?
                    You should read some of the emails I get from people who have never bought
                    anything from me but automatically assume that because I sell "make money
                    online" products that I'm the same as that guy who screwed him over last
                    week.

                    Some of the stuff I have to read is plain vile.

                    I don't deserve it and I don't need it...not anymore.

                    So the first chance I get to unload everything (the price has to be right as
                    I'm not just going to give it all away) I'm done.

                    I earned that right.

                    I feel sorry for the honest people in the MMO niche, folks like Alexa Smith,
                    Caliban Darklock, Paul Myers, Bill Platt, George Sepich, and so many more
                    that I can't think of right now because my brain is fried, who have to put
                    up with all the crap.

                    Sure, some of them just let it roll off their shoulders. Maybe even most or all
                    of them do. I can't. Sure, I was able to when I had to do a job. But now,
                    that I don't have to, I don't want to take it anymore.

                    I know a lot of people will say I bailed and took the easy way out (once I
                    can actually pack all this up) and that's fine. Eventually, someday, I would
                    have retired from plain old age.

                    So why not quit while I can still enjoy my life?

                    Why do I have to wait until I'm who knows how old and on life support?

                    FWIW, I think the industry needs a major cleaning up. But every time I bring
                    that point up I get hit by the same arguments...who's going to do it?

                    The government?

                    And that's when I get slammed with the "You don't want the government
                    involved any more than it already is," which I understand.

                    But when I hear things like "Clickbank is going to clean up the marketplace"
                    and I still see the same sales pages with all the supposed violations according
                    to new practice, I realize that all the talk is just that...talk.

                    Nothing is REALLY going to change.

                    And the worst part?

                    Buyers don't use their common sense. They read sales pages that promise
                    the world and don't bother saying to themselves..."Hmmm, $30,000 a month
                    at the push of a button? Maybe this just might be full of sh*t?"

                    And then, they buy the overhyped crap and bitch about all the scum bag
                    sellers and that all IMers are scammers.

                    And they cycle continues.

                    And it's been continuing for as long as I've been doing this.

                    It will NEVER change.

                    This may be about the 20th post I've made here in the last 6 months. No, I
                    don't come around much anymore. So you know if I took this much time to
                    respond that it must because this is a very sore subject for me.

                    I can't fix the problem so I'm leaving the problem for somebody else to fix.

                    I wish them luck.

                    They're going to need it.
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              • Profile picture of the author capitalalchemy
                Having a downsell is a great way to save a sale, but I totally agree that offering the same product/service for a reduced price is ripping people off basically.

                Perhaps a better alternative would be to try and capture those people through email with a great free offer and try warming them up during this process instead.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelvinmedia
    I am a newbie and I have to say, thank you for the very interesting discussion. I have learned the dos and don't for upsells and downsells. From my own experience, I personally don't like it when they give me a discount as I try to leave the page. Like what some of you have mentioned,sometimes I would try to leave the page just to see if they would give me a discount.
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  • Profile picture of the author momfriend
    I agree with you. we come here with very little money, find something, pay for it, pay for domain and hosting, nothing is done for a month, you email the dude and no response. So frustrated you then do resolution because the work has not been done.
    I am talking about something that just happened to me. then the dude has the nerve to email me and tell me that I made him lose money, what the f.// excuse me, but like the above posted, we come here to WSO believing that this one we purchase will be the one that will make us hear kaching.
    boy do i want to mention names. thanks for allowing me to post and vent.
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  • Profile picture of the author Iriss
    Deceiving people is the dumbest thing an Internet Marketer can do. That tells me that they are an amateur. This will never make a substantial amount of money.

    Imagine all the business they could have earned if they gave you

    1) awesome tips
    2) practical examples
    3) psychological insights and personal development ideas for growing

    etc...

    Instead they fooled you, damaged your perceived view of the entire community, and pretty much stole your money...

    Not good!
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post


    You've damaged my trust of all warriors here making upsell/down-sell/OTO's. How can I now not question any of these offers made?[/B]
    Perhaps by using your brain and realizing that just because one person uses what's been identified by you as a dishonest tactic, that not every other person will automatically use that dishonest tactic?

    Talk about lumping everyone together just because of one bad experience with one seller...That's your own problem, in my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      Perhaps by using your brain and realizing that just because one person uses what's been identified by you as a dishonest tactic, that not every other person will automatically use that dishonest tactic?

      Talk about lumping everyone together just because of one bad experience with one seller...That's your own problem, in my opinion.
      Hmm, I think he had a bad experience and It's going to haunt him for a while.
      Every time he is about to make a purchase decision, to buy either your product or someone else's through this forum, he is going to be reminded of that negative experience.
      As humans we tend to go with our emotions and feelings rather than pure common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

    So, you've just trained me to 1) Never believe your price. 2) Not to ever trust you. 3) To make sure I NEVER buy your upsells when first presented and 4) you look at the members here as SUCKERS.
    Quoted for truth...

    I keep telling people about this...

    And they keep saying "but it works," as though this somehow excuses it...
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  • Profile picture of the author msudawgs56
    I have to agree with several earlier posts in that this forum is becoming OVERRUN with WSO offers. To be quite honest, not too many of them are "Special". Seems that people are starting to sound more and more cheesy and making false promises.

    There are a handful of really well respected IMs on here that I love reading their CONTRIBUTIONS. There are still good ones out there, but like mentioned earlier I wish we could simply thin out the WSO's and see the good stuff out there to help one another. I have spent way too much on WSO's and I can say that I can remember only 4 or 5 giving me new ideas/practices and were professionally created.

    To the OP, sorry you got burned.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claire Koch
    if you're talking about the same wso (who knows) i just took the downsell i hate webinars saved me a bunch of money oh yeah which wso are talkin bout how do ya all know for sure lol. i have seen allen police this place. it would surprise you if he suddenly said "no more upsale downsell's in yhe wso thread!? would not surprise me in the least
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
    Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post


    Amazing that someone smart enough to pull all this off doesn't have the insight to see the life-time value of a customer. Amazing that folks with these business practices are actually looked up to in these forums. Amazing that there are any suckers left if these practices are common.
    It might surprise you that not many people fully understand the life-time value of a customer concept.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul_1
    Maybe for a downsell, you should just strip the product with 1 or 2 features that will only be available for the higher price... That way, people who bought the original price will see more value on their purchase compared to the downsell...
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    There are so many threads like this.

    I hate webinars.
    I hate upsells.
    I hate downsells.
    I hate email.
    I hate long sales pages.
    I hate video sales pages.
    I hate short sales pages.
    Most WSOs are crap.

    This is an Internet marketing forum and most of us have been exposed to just about every kind of marketing technique invented and I would say that I have become desensitized to it all.

    These techniques don't bother me and unless it is something that is blatantly a scam, I don't question the ethics of the techniques. I just avoid things that annoy me, like webinars, many email lists, video sales pages, and as for WSOs, I think if people actually spent more time in the forum and less time in the WSO section, they would make better buying decisions.

    I'm 99% happy with all of the WSOs I have bought because I buy from sellers that have impressed me in the forum with their contributions. It's rare that I visit the WSO forum. Too many bright, flashing neon signs. There are people in this forum that create incredible products but because of all the reasons Paul gave about the marketplace as it is, there are so many offers from unknowns ...people that are never seen in the discussion forum, that it just gives me a headache visiting it.

    I'm sure there's a perception to these unknowns that you just make wild promises of easy income and sit back and rake in the cash from all the newbie dreamers looking for exactly that type of product. It may work for some of them, some of them not so much, but there will always be those who are trying, and lots of them.

    If any particular marketing technique annoys you, just avoid it. You still didn't answer the question to me that is most important. Did you find value in the product you bought? Was it garbage or did you learn something from it?
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I agree that the WSO forum has changed from a semi-exclusive boutique marketplace to more of a sprawling digital flea market. As to the practice mentioned in the OP, here's what immediately came to my mind...

      A man and a woman are sitting in a bar, having a drink and some quiet 'get to know you' conversation. The TV behind the bar is showing the movie "Indecent Proposal."

      The man turns to the woman and asks if she'd actually sleep with him for a million dollars, like in the movie. She says yes, she believes she would.

      The man puts a $20 bill on the bar and asks if she'll sleep with him for that $20.

      Outraged, she snarls "do you think I'm some kind of whore?"

      Nonplussed, he answers "Darlin', we already established that. I don't have a million dollars, so I'm hagglin'"

      :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Les Blythe
    "Of course, there was an upsell. No big. Good business. But then came the down-sell. Not to a different product, not to a stripped down offer -- but for the same product, plus an extra bonus. What?"

    Sorry guys - that to me is just stupid. We are all marketers but come on - please!

    I have just purchase a brilliant WSO so don't think we can tar them all with the same brush.

    Unfortunately in life - we sometimes have to kiss a few frogs to find a prince
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  • Profile picture of the author JeremiahSay
    ANYWHERE in the world, you will see 2 kinds of people, generally the GOOD or the BAD.. likewise in this forum.. there will be so called "good" and "bad" people around..

    I should say you are one of the good people for 2 reason:

    1) You didn't name names
    2) Courage and honest to post such a thread

    may God bless you,
    Jeremiah
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      ANYWHERE in the world, you will see 2 kinds of people, generally the GOOD or the BAD
      Since when does a marketing faux pas make someone good or bad. That's all it is ...nothing more. It's not good or evil.

      If you want to see evil in action, there's plenty around. Scammers and ripoff artists getting money for nothing, those who steal other's work, those that use fraud and deception to part you from your money, etc. There's plenty of examples of that.

      This guy merely made a last ditch offer that was better than his original offer. Whether it's stupid marketing or not, it's not evil.
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  • Profile picture of the author steven sanderson
    Great thread thankyou

    My advice however would be to not let someone who plays these games to force your mind into the feelings you have, i know first hand that there are many many very honest marketers here on the Warrior Forum

    I suppose like any industry you will always get a bad egg, i have just been stung badly by a car mechanic who charged me a fortune to do my brakes, or should i say make a total hash of my brakes, in fact we are all very lucky i noticed and had them put right, i have not finished with the parasite that put my daughters life in danger, but i wont label every mechanic the same

    All the very best to you and your future
    Steven
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  • Profile picture of the author AndreasJacobsen
    Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

    And I believe that the good warriors who come here for advice, use hard-earned money to risk on an offer hoping that "this one" has something they need to do better in life -- deserve better !
    Agreed, I have been there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Roan
    I have felt like this before. When I decided not to buy a product, I go click it away and oh now I can get 30% discount. I felt kind of betrayed and certainly didn't go for it. Personally I will never do this. I think you gotta be straight up to your customers. It's just a matter of time until people notice..
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Roan View Post

      Personally I will never do this. I think you gotta be straight up to your customers. It's just a matter of time until people notice..
      Well, there's the thing.

      If you use tactics like this, chances are you are not doing it under your real name. When your behaviour gets you a crappy reputation, you simply change the name you're using and start all over with a clean slate. The internet makes this easy.

      Which is why I personally check out the people selling stuff. I don't so much care if they're big gurus or anything... I just want to see evidence. If you're Derek Greythorne, and you're twenty-odd years old, I think typing "derek greythorne" into Google should turn up a significant amount of stuff you did in high school. You should have a Twitter account. You should have a MySpace page. You should have a Facebook profile linked to your college. You should be a member of a few forums. You should have commented on a few blogs. You probably have a blog of your own. It's likely to be on Blogger or Tumblr or WordPress.com, instead of your own domain.

      If I don't find all of this stuff, that's cool. But if I don't find any of it, something is up.

      A large part of personal branding is developing an online presence so sizeable and pervasive that it would be impossible to fake. If you've got that kind of online presence, you've got a reputation to uphold, and you're going to behave differently than someone who just woke up one day and said "DERP, I'm gonna build a list."
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author steven sanderson
    I agree with up selling, but as far as i am concerned anyone who hits you with a down sell was happy to take the cash from you for the earlier inflated cost, i have been hit with this before offline too, it is very common in the window and kitchen industry, i saw it a lot when i was a self employed carpenter

    I suppose i am a guy who likes to know how much something is, then i decide wether or not to buy, if someone then comes to me and says well if you don't want to pay that will you be prepared to pay this lower price, then my barriers go straight up

    I believe these tactics are old hat, taken from people like double glazing salesmen, they should stay old hat and not be used offline or online anymore, we are in a social era now, with social media becoming a very big integration into everything internet, including marketing, and i do not think these tactics are very social

    All the best
    Steven
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