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A BIG Bully Attorney - Need advice on my legal domain ownership rights.

by musicaltouch
85 replies
I wanted your opinion on a my rights as a domain seller.

I purchased a domain name thru go-daddy auction a couple of years ago.

The domain is firstamks.com.

Today, I get a letter demanding I transfer the name back to them as they have trademarked firstam.com.

They are being total pri%$s and are requesting me to transfer the domain or sign documents about using my domain.

I say they have no right. What if I wanted to this site for something that is no relation to their trademark?

I called their attorney, to tell them we would sell it ,but I would not give her a price because how her letter and approach had offended me.

She barely had the facts and was not professional on the phone. Almost as if she was a con artist. However the letter does come from a large financial institution, so they have deep pockets to invest in buying the name or taking me to court.


I will put a price tag on it and put it up for sale.

Since I own the name for almost two years now, should they have to pay me whatever or live without the name?

Am I right or wrong?
#advice #attorney #big #bully #domain #legal #ownership #rights
  • Profile picture of the author Ross Cohen
    Well, is the site worth a lot to you? If not, I'd be lenient as to ensure you run in to no financial problems with this. Better safe than sorry, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author affhelper
      I don't think you are doing anything wrong. You owning the domain does no harm to them.

      If you started developing something on that domain they might win against you.

      Put it up for sale and let them make bids on it.
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    • Profile picture of the author revstan
      Originally Posted by resellcells View Post

      Well, is the site worth a lot to you? If not, I'd be lenient as to ensure you run in to no financial problems with this. Better safe than sorry, right?
      Yeah that is right, but if they are really total pricks, you have to milk them.


      Simplestan
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  • Profile picture of the author KingOfContentMarketing
    Talk to an attorney. You can start with kindsvater, a member here:

    View Profile: kindsvater
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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    • Profile picture of the author musicaltouch
      Thanks for the advice.

      The site is not worth much too me right now. I am just ticked off about their approach.

      Before the letter I would have let it go for what I have into it, now I am thinking about putting up on auction for the highest bidder just to spite the *******s.

      However, I am not that type of person so I may mark it up a few thousand dollars for their pure arrogance. See what happens from there.

      When I spoke with the attorney I told her we would publish the price for the domain and put it up for sale.

      To avoid any legal ramifications I will contact View Profile: kindsvater As Joe recommends.

      Thank you Joe!

      Thank You AffHelper!

      Thank You ATVKing!
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    • Profile picture of the author musicaltouch
      Thank you resellcells. I agree, but imagine if they push other around and get away with the thuggery.

      To Answer TPW- No competition, I used the site as a buffer site for SEO purposes last year, but no direct competition.

      Thank you TPW!
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    • Profile picture of the author musicaltouch
      Great advice Aaron. That is the road I am going to take. They just tweaked me a little with the demand letter. No notice, just a demand.

      Thank you Aaron.
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    • Profile picture of the author musicaltouch
      Originally Posted by Joe Ditzel View Post

      Talk to an attorney. You can start with kindsvater, a member here:

      View Profile: kindsvater
      Contacted Him.

      Thank you again Joe!
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  • Profile picture of the author atvking
    nissan.com look it up....a trade mark applies only to your branch of the industry...for example there is delta bank delta airlines delta shoes delta tents delta whatever.....you can own firstamks.com if you do not do the same as firstam.com and there is not a thing that they can do about it...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by atvking View Post

      nissan.com look it up....a trade mark applies only to your branch of the industry...for example there is delta bank delta airlines delta shoes delta tents delta whatever.....you can own firstamks.com if you do not do the same as firstam.com and there is not a thing that they can do about it...
      Not a thing? Yea right, he's been fighting Nissan cars since they first filed to take his domain in 1999.

      He's been sued for over $10 million dollars by Nissan and he has spent over $100,000 in legal fees fighting Nissan for over 12 years for that domain which at least is very valuable.

      So the question is how much fight and money do you have to get into a legal battle?

      Talk to an attorney. At least the initial consultation will be cheap.
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      • Profile picture of the author atvking
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        Not a thing? Yea right, he's been fighting Nissan cars since they first filed to take his domain in 1999.

        He's been sued for over $10 million dollars by Nissan and he has spent over $100,000 in legal fees fighting Nissan for over 12 years for that domain which at least is very valuable.

        So the question is how much fight and money do you have to get into a legal battle?

        Talk to an attorney. At least the initial consultation will be cheap.
        Nissan is a mighty adversary. An industrial giant that bleeds for this domain name. This is a very rare scenario and they STILL did not win and never will.

        I have no idea how he had 100.000s of dollars in expenses when this is an open and shut case. He was nissan.com while nissan was DATSUN. His surname is Nissan. He regged nissan.com before anybody and does not sell cars.

        If he did have 100.000s of $ in expenses then this just speaks volumes about an imperfect justice system. If it is true that he had all these expenses then its very sad.
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        • Profile picture of the author davezan
          Originally Posted by atvking View Post

          Nissan is a mighty adversary. An industrial giant that bleeds for this domain name. This is a very rare scenario and they STILL did not win and never will.

          I have no idea how he had 100.000s of dollars in expenses when this is an open and shut case. He was nissan.com while nissan was DATSUN. His surname is Nissan. He regged nissan.com before anybody and does not sell cars.

          If he did have 100.000s of $ in expenses then this just speaks volumes about an imperfect justice system. If it is true that he had all these expenses then its very sad.
          If/when you can spare time, check this decision:

          http://www.digest.com/images/FinalJudgment2008.pdf

          Read up especially under Findings of Fact. You might be surprised to see that
          there's more to that than what some people think.
          Signature

          David

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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Are you using their trade name inside of your website?

    Are you competing directly against them in their industry?

    Although I am not an attorney, my understanding is that if the answer to the above questions is "no", then you may have ground to tell them to fly a kite.

    If you answered "yes" to either question, then offering to sell them the site is probably the biggest mistake you can make.

    Bear in mind that I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one on the Internet.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    Sounds like the domain isn't developed so you may want to ask a fair price to buy it off you.

    But consult a lawyer. Likely you would lose it anyways but it would cost them less to buy it off you vs force the issues so a small settlement is IMO not out of the question.
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    Aaron Doud - Sales & Success
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Trademark litigation is the result of how you utilize the domain.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    Not a lawyer, but I believe that if they trademarked it after you already owned it they are sol.
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    • Profile picture of the author sadiecopywriter
      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      Not a lawyer, but I believe that if they trademarked it after you already owned it they are sol.
      I'm no lawyer, but know this is false. Case in point. There was a hotel in my area (mom & pop place) had been there for 60 years, with the same name.

      Then, a chain hotel (who had only been in business 15 years,) found out that they had they same name. They sued the little place and won, even though the little hotel had the name first. Supposedly, they lost because it wasn't about who had it first, it was about who trademarked it first, and the little place never trademarked it at all. The little place lost, had to pay a ton of damages and change their name.
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      Mercedes
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      Check out the FREE Little Black Book of Royalty Free Images.

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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      One would think so but that isn't true at all. = (

      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      Not a lawyer, but I believe that if they trademarked it after you already owned it they are sol.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      Not a lawyer, but I believe that if they trademarked it after you already owned it they are sol.
      That's my understanding of it as well. If you are using a tradename that isn't registered to someone else, you have a stake in that name - and usually the first stake in it. Again - I'm not a lawyer either. I think you contacted the right guy, though.

      Will be very curious to find out how this turns out.

      For the OP and for agc -- some day you will tell someone to stuff a DMCA and they will - right where the sun don't shine on you.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Originally Posted by musicaltouch View Post

    I wanted your opinion on a my rights as a domain seller.

    I purchased a domain name thru go-daddy auction a couple of years ago.

    The domain is firstamks.com.

    Today, I get a letter demanding I transfer the name back to them as they have trademarked firstam.com.

    They are being total pri% and are requesting me to transfer the domain or sign documents about using my domain.

    I say they have no right. What if I wanted to this site for something that is no relation to their trademark?

    I called their attorney, to tell them we would sell it ,but I would not give her a price because how her letter and approach had offended me.

    She barely had the facts and was not professional on the phone. Almost as if she was a con artist. However the letter does come from a large financial institution, so they have deep pockets to invest in buying the name or taking me to court.


    I will put a price tag on it and put it up for sale.

    Since I own the name for almost two years now, should they have to pay me whatever or live without the name?

    Am I right or wrong?
    put up a wordpress blog.

    Make the title "First American Kindergarten Schools"
    And post 2-3 pages about how to find the best kindergarten.

    THEN offer the site for sale for whatever amount you think is fair, plus 9000% for their obnoxiousness.

    I never would have contacted the lawyer.

    Instead I would have contacted the CEO of the company.

    I'd tell him that had you been approached in non arrogant, non rabid manner by a member of the human race, you would have gladly sold the domain for some reasonable price. But the hostile, arrogant, rabid behavior of the sub human lawyers has just guaranteed that he will EITHER pay 100x the price, or else he will NEVER own the domain. IF he actually WANTS the domain, he will pay YOUR price.

    OR, if he fires the lawyer and apologizes publicly, in both his own name and his companies name, in a classified ad in any national publication with a circulation over 100,000... then you might be persuaded to give it to him for free.

    After all, you aren't in this for the money. It's the principle of the thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author musicaltouch
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      put up a wordpress blog.

      Make the title "First American Kindergarten Schools"
      And post 2-3 pages about how to find the best kindergarten.

      THEN offer the site for sale for whatever amount you think is fair, plus 9000% for their obnoxiousness.

      I never would have contacted the lawyer.

      Instead I would have contacted the CEO of the company.

      I'd tell him that had you been approached in non arrogant, non rabid manner by a member of the human race, you would have gladly sold the domain for some reasonable price. But the hostile, arrogant, rabid behavior of the sub human lawyers has just guaranteed that he will EITHER pay 100x the price, or else he will NEVER own the domain. IF he actually WANTS the domain, he will pay YOUR price.

      OR, if he fires the lawyer and apologizes publicly, in both his own name and his companies name, in a classified ad in any national publication with a circulation over 100,000... then you might be persuaded to give it to him for free.

      After all, you aren't in this for the money. It's the principle of the thing.
      That is the BEST piece of advice yet. I wish i would have put this post up first! LOL.

      After reading your AGC, I almost fell on the floor laughing.

      That is what I am talking about! Hit em smack dab in the eyes.

      My luck, it would be his wife or sister. LOL
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Two things here...

        "Keep your words soft and sweet, for you may end up eating them."

        and

        Every piece of legal advice you get on this thread, with the information provided, PLUS one dollar is worth almost a dollar.

        Some, like agc's, could end up costing you some serious coin. Don't get into a pissing match with anyone armed with a fire hose...
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        • Profile picture of the author protectyoursales
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          "Keep your words soft and sweet, for you may end up eating them."

          Every piece of legal advice you get on this thread, with the information provided, PLUS one dollar is worth almost a dollar.

          Some, like agc's, could end up costing you some serious coin. Don't get into a pissing match with anyone armed with a fire hose...
          Wow, 3 great pieces of advice in one single post...This might be the best thing I've read all day. I have literally no legal experience so I'm not offering any advice other than I would definitely talk to a lawyer if you're seriously concerned about it. I would also avoid taking matters any more into your own hands than you already have.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        Originally Posted by musicaltouch View Post

        That is the BEST piece of advice yet. I wish i would have put this post up first! LOL.

        After reading your AGC, I almost fell on the floor laughing.

        That is what I am talking about! Hit em smack dab in the eyes.

        My luck, it would be his wife or sister. LOL
        The lawyers will also be "LOL-ing" on the floor laughing when their Google alert for firstamks.com finds this thread and your posts.

        I can just see it... Lawyer to his/her assistant: "please print this thread and add it to the firstamks.com case file".
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        • Profile picture of the author agc
          Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

          The lawyers will also be "LOL-ing" on the floor laughing when their Google alert for firstamks.com finds this thread and your posts.

          I can just see it... Lawyer to his/her assistant: "please print this thread and add it to the firstamks.com case file".
          They can LOL all they want... if he was not making an infringing use and not offering it for sale, they will have a hard time making a case for infringement.

          The reality is that they just want to bully him into giving up the name.

          He has a choice. He can roll over and play dead. A sickening choice that far too many spineless... I can't even find a noun to adequately express my disgust... people... seem to make far too easily.

          Or he can choose to put needles in their a$$. Putting needless in someone's arse, is, obviously a somewhat risky endeavor. But then again, most worthwhile pursuits do entail some risk.

          A reasonably bright person with some free time and access to a law library and maybe some motivated legal aid types, can, with very little of their time, file motion after motion, burning up mega dollars for the plaintiff to deal with.

          Then in the end, even if he loses... what does he lose? The odds are (unless he really was making some infringing use of the domain that he's not telling about)... he just loses the domain.

          Nah, I'd go curl up and hide in the corner. Maybe suck my thumb and close my eyes until the big monster goes away.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            If they are the trademark holder - you'll be spending time and money to fight a battle to keep a domain you don't have much use for. Offering to sell it to that trademark holder at a higher price can lead to charges of cybersquatting.

            Don't do anything else until you've talked to a good lawyer. Legal advice on a forum is worthless as it's not usually "legal" advice.

            What you could do is used the search function here and find posts made by kindsvater as he's posted a lot about this subject and does know what he's talking about.

            You can also go to the government sites that have great "legal" explanations of trademark infringement and trademark protection.
            Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
            Originally Posted by agc View Post

            They can LOL all they want... if he was not making an infringing use and not offering it for sale, they will have a hard time making a case for infringement.

            The reality is that they just want to bully him into giving up the name.

            He has a choice. He can roll over and play dead. A sickening choice that far too many spineless... I can't even find a noun to adequately express my disgust... people... seem to make far too easily.

            Or he can choose to put needles in their a$$. Putting needless in someone's arse, is, obviously a somewhat risky endeavor. But then again, most worthwhile pursuits do entail some risk.

            A reasonably bright person with some free time and access to a law library and maybe some motivated legal aid types, can, with very little of their time, file motion after motion, burning up mega dollars for the plaintiff to deal with.

            Then in the end, even if he loses... what does he lose? The odds are (unless he really was making some infringing use of the domain that he's not telling about)... he just loses the domain.

            Nah, I'd go curl up and hide in the corner. Maybe suck my thumb and close my eyes until the big monster goes away.
            No, I'm sure you would be all tough right here on the forums. In the real world, meow.

            Look, it's the OP's time and money, not yours.

            Instead of sounding unprofessional on a public forum he should go talk to an attorney.

            If he wants to go vent about the "big bully" that meanie attorney he shouldn't be so careless as to mention the domain name to add fodder to the oppositions cannons.

            Good gravy, it's not that hard to figure out. It doesn't matter what any of us have to say about it one way or another.

            If he really wants to fight then he needs to get sound advice not bravado from forum mates who have nothing too loose.
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            • Profile picture of the author agc
              Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

              No, I'm sure you would be all tough right here on the forums. In the real world, meow.

              Look, it's the OP's time and money, not yours.
              Nah, I'm pretty much as pain in the *** in the real world too. I've caused large national banks to have to deal with the OCC. I've told people to go shove it over DMCA letters, and told my hosting company that I have complied in that I responded, and will take down the material when a judge orders me to.

              How I originally ended up on the warrior forum was some jacknut on here sent me a nasty threatening email that I had STOLEN his article, which I responded to. But when I googled him, I found him on here posting giddily about what a thief I was, and posted my identity (ie the whois info from the domain).

              His stupid article had made it to one of my sites through a spun content network. And HE ran a content network, so he of all people was in a position to take one look at the site in queston and know exactly what it was. I tore him to shreds, very nastily, and very publicly. Within weeks he had slunk away off WF. Probably from embarassment.

              I just refuse to accept the conventionally accepted without actual thought tripe that gets passed around. I know what I can generally get away with, I know how to push back, I know how to test someone's resolve, and I know how to fold a hand in a hurry if looks like, or turn out to be, a loser.

              That said, you are right on one thing. It's the OP'S time and money. HE gets to choose how he spends it. And how he risks it. Ironically, that point seems to be lost on all the risk averse pansies who think they should keep him from taking any risk at all.

              I think the real point is to make sure the real risks are understood... then he can decide what's important TO HIM.

              But yeah, at this point, he posted the site name, he made them an offer to sell. He's pretty much poisoned his own well on this one.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                I've told people to go shove it over DMCA letters, and told my hosting company that I have complied in that I responded, and will take down the material when a judge orders me to.
                How impressive. You steal articles and get away with it.

                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                That said, you are right on one thing. It's the OP'S time and money. HE gets to choose how he spends it. And how he risks it. Ironically, that point seems to be lost on all the risk averse pansies who think they should keep him from taking any risk at all.
                Actually, the majority of the advice that is worth reading is that he could probably both keep and use the domain in a non-infringing manner, but that if the company sues, it will cost him in a lot of time and money to defend it. Only he can decide if that domain is worth that to him.

                Unless he, like you, has a lot of time on their hands to run off to a law library and make believe he's a lawyer.
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                • Profile picture of the author agc
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  How impressive. You steal articles and get away with it.
                  How impressive. You call me a thief without bothering to consider (or even look for) the first fact.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by agc View Post

                    How impressive. You call me a thief without bothering to consider (or even look for) the first fact.

                    Oh ... people just send you DMCAs because they like to annoy you or they're bored that day perhaps.
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                    • Profile picture of the author agc
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      Oh ... people just send you DMCAs because they like to annoy you or they're bored that day perhaps.
                      Or maybe because, even though they're billing out at over $200 per hour for work they have done in Singapore for $5, they're still just too damn lazy to actually research the copyscape results before sending out the form letters? Perhaps?
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                • Profile picture of the author agc
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post


                  Actually, the majority of the advice that is worth reading is that he could probably both keep and use the domain in a non-infringing manner, but that if the company sues, it will cost him in a lot of time and money to defend it. Only he can decide if that domain is worth that to him.

                  Unless he, like you, has a lot of time on their hands to run off to a law library and make believe he's a lawyer.
                  I agree with your point. Unfortunately, the worth reading advice is but a small portion of the total advice.

                  Are you one of those people who thinks its impossible to know anything useful or of value if you aren't a credentialed expert and are too terrified to learn about new and different things? I personally could never live in such a myopic box, but I can understand how comfortable, safe, and secure your little world must be for you.

                  I usually agree with most of what you say, fwiw. But then you go throwing in personal insults.

                  Really, why do you people (on WF) insist on making these things nasty and personal? Is it really that frightening that the world might be big enough for multiple correct points of view?

                  I understand it's just the first tendency of an insecure person, but I have to admit, WF is way worse than any other forum I've ever been on. Way worse. And as a car nut and a software developer, I've been on some pretty dogmatic forums.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                    Originally Posted by agc View Post

                    I agree with your point. Unfortunately, the worth reading advice is but a small portion of the total advice.

                    Are you one of those people who thinks its impossible to know anything useful or of value if you aren't a credentialed expert and are too terrified to learn about new and different things? I personally could never live in such a myopic box, but I can understand how comfortable, safe, and secure your little world must be for you.

                    I usually agree with most of what you say, fwiw. But then you go throwing in personal insults.

                    Really, why do you people (on WF) insist on making these things nasty and personal? Is it really that frightening that the world might be big enough for multiple correct points of view?

                    I understand it's just the first tendency of an insecure person, but I have to admit, WF is way worse than any other forum I've ever been on. Way worse. And as a car nut and a software developer, I've been on some pretty dogmatic forums.
                    You mean like calling people "risk averse pansies" [sic] if they disagree with YOU?

                    LOL

                    That being said, there are many points of view, any number of which may have some validity, BUT the ONLY way to know for sure is to talk to an attorney. Anything else isn't being risk-averse, it's being foolish.

                    All the best,
                    Michael
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                    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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                    • Profile picture of the author agc
                      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

                      That being said, there are many points of view, any number of which may have some validity, BUT the ONLY way to know for sure is to talk to an attorney. Anything else isn't being risk-averse, it's being foolish.
                      Do you go to the emergency room every time you cut yourself shaving?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
                        Originally Posted by agc View Post

                        Do you go to the emergency room every time you cut yourself shaving?
                        No, but that's not a very good analogy. Most of us have some first-aid training, or at least know how to operate a Band-Aid. The legal profession (is that an oxymoron?) is one that most of us are NOT trained in...and when it comes to the law, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

                        All the best,
                        Michael
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                        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by agc View Post

                    Really, why do you people (on WF) insist on making these things nasty and personal? Is it really that frightening that the world might be big enough for multiple correct points of view?

                    I understand it's just the first tendency of an insecure person, but I have to admit, WF is way worse than any other forum I've ever been on. Way worse. And as a car nut and a software developer, I've been on some pretty dogmatic forums.
                    Hmmm .... appears to me that you are the one who got nasty and personal first. That sort of sets the tone.

                    that point seems to be lost on all the risk averse pansies ...
                    Really, why do you people (on WF) insist on making these things nasty and personal?
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                    • Profile picture of the author agc
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      Hmmm .... appears to me that you are the one who got nasty and personal first. That sort of sets the tone.
                      Prior to you calling me a thief, what comment did I direct at you?
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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by agc View Post

                        Prior to you calling me a thief, what comment did I direct at you?
                        When you post a generic insult on a public forum, you are insulting everyone who reads it. But you already set the tone of how you "pain in the ass" and it appears that you rather enjoy combative discussion.

                        Nah, I'm pretty much as pain in the *** in the real world too. I've caused large national banks to have to deal with the OCC. I've told people to go shove it over DMCA letters, and told my hosting company that I have complied in that I responded, and will take down the material when a judge orders me to.

                        How I originally ended up on the warrior forum was some jacknut on here sent me a nasty threatening email that I had STOLEN his article, which I responded to. But when I googled him, I found him on here posting giddily about what a thief I was, and posted my identity (ie the whois info from the domain).

                        His stupid article had made it to one of my sites through a spun content network. And HE ran a content network, so he of all people was in a position to take one look at the site in queston and know exactly what it was. I tore him to shreds, very nastily, and very publicly. Within weeks he had slunk away off WF. Probably from embarassment.

                        I just refuse to accept the conventionally accepted without actual thought tripe that gets passed around. I know what I can generally get away with, I know how to push back, I know how to test someone's resolve, and I know how to fold a hand in a hurry if looks like, or turn out to be, a loser.
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                        • Profile picture of the author agc
                          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                          When you post a generic insult on a public forum, you are insulting everyone who reads it. But you already set the tone of how you "pain in the ass" and it appears that you rather enjoy combative discussion.
                          So you called me a thief in response to a generic insult not directed at anyone in particular?

                          So in other words, I said nothing to you. But when I made a certain general characterization of excessively risk averse personalities that touched your hot buttons, you went straight to calling me a thief. Indeed, that is an impressive demonstration of self control.
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                          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by agc View Post

                            So you called me a thief in response to a generic insult not directed at anyone in particular?

                            So in other words, I said nothing to you. But when I made a certain general characterization of excessively risk averse personalities that touched your hot buttons, you went straight to calling me a thief. Indeed, that is an impressive demonstration of self control.
                            Whatever ... you're the one bragging about getting DMCAs and getting around them. I don't get DMCAs. What exactly was that reason you have again for getting numerous DMCAs? You're either posting content that doesn't belong to you or you're an innocent victim of DMCAs ...
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                            • Profile picture of the author agc
                              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                              Whatever ... you're the one bragging about getting DMCAs and getting around them. I don't get DMCAs. What exactly was that reason you have again for getting numerous DMCAs? You're either posting content that doesn't belong to you or you're an innocent victim of DMCAs ...
                              Where exactly did I say I had numerous DMCA's? Reading comprehension just does not seem to be your strong suit. I've had two. Both were defective.
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                              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                                Where exactly did I say I had numerous DMCA's? Reading comprehension just does not seem to be your strong suit. I've had two. Both were defective.
                                Note the use of the plural form of letter as in letters, as in more than one letter. So now you've further defined it to be exactly two DMCAS. The point remains that you don't normally get one or two or three or more DMCAs unless you are using someone else's content without permission.

                                Originally Posted by agc View Post
                                I've told people to go shove it over DMCA letters, and told my hosting company that I have complied in that I responded, and will take down the material when a judge orders me to.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Yes, absolutely. Shrivel in fear before the mighty bully. You might get beat up.

    No, seriously, I mean it. Don't do what I would do unless you have the stomach for the beat down you might end up taking.

    But to understand my point of view, and the reaction to it above, I supposed it would help to have a little background.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...marketing.html

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...yone-deal.html
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  • Profile picture of the author rooze
    I'm not an attorney and my advice is worth $1.10 only if I send you a buck, but don't mention trying to sell it to them unless they make a legitimate attempt to purchase it. And don't put a 'for sale' notice on the site either. If it went to court their claim (one of them) would be that you knowingly obtained a domain closely connected with a trademarked name in an attempt to obtain financial gain from leveraging the trademark. You offering to sell it to them is the worst thing you can do at this point, since it's making your original intent transparent (at least they would claim that).

    Personally, if it wasn't an active site and I didn't have time invested into it I'd just give it up.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Talk to an attorney. Are you saying that the SAME people who sold it to you are doing this? Have you used the domain yet for a website?

    If not, there isn't any infringement and not all use would be infringement, but only an attorney can help you with this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    Also - domains are first come first serve according to this site. But still a lawyer well versed in Trademark law is your best bet.

    FAQ about Domain Names and Trademarks -- Chilling Effects Clearinghouse

    Update - also look at Domain Name Dispute Policies:
    http://www.bitlaw.com/internet/domain.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Elmar
    Exactly the same thing happened to me.

    I had a domain and was clearly trademark infringing. The a@$%^#e layer contacted me and said I need to take down the website and transfer the domain over to them or I will be sued.
    So I took down the site but refused to transfer domain until they compensated me for the whole project. I was asking over $300. They refused and said they will only offer $10 for the domain.
    I said no.
    Never heard back from them. The domain eventually expired.

    I dont recommend this path of action. I just didn't like their tone and how they were trying to intimidate me. I also used up as much time of the attorney as possible as I knew the clients were paying him per hour . (just a little research I did as the Law firm was in my city).

    Good luck and consult a layer. There is a site online that will answer all you legal questions for $40.
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    What is the purpose of the domain in the domain in the first place?

    Seems to me if you're profiting off their goodwill, then they might have some firepower.

    But I'm not a lawyer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    Lawyers bully

    This is how they first approach anyone.

    Never bow down immediately. In fact the harder they come on, the more likely they are to be hoping that bullying will work.

    If you get an email from anyone claiming to be a lawyer, ask for all the information. Simply tell them that you are seeking legal representation and you want all the information first. NO lawyer will hide this from you.

    Then approaching a lawyer. Tell them what has happened. They won't turn you away. If they sniff that someone is being a bully then they will jump at the chance of representing you - why? - because when lawyers bully it means that have no other option. If they have no other option then they will lose in court. Which mean that you get costs - and your lawyer gets paid.

    All this means is that your lawyer will know that s/he'll either do nothing and get paid or do nothing and not get paid. Either way, it's easy business for him/her.

    NOTE: this isn't legal advice - it's experience advice
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  • Profile picture of the author DreamWarrior
    I came across the same issue with Go Daddy last year. The letter was quite threatening and demanding that we transfer the name to them.

    We spoke to a lawyer who specialises in online site names and he suggested that if we don't use the site that links to their company, then all is fine.

    If you are that worried, just resell it to the highest bidder and let someone else worry about the whole thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

      I came across the same issue with Go Daddy last year. The letter was quite threatening and demanding that we transfer the name to them.

      We spoke to a lawyer who specialises in online site names and he suggested that if we don't use the site that links to their company, then all is fine.

      If you are that worried, just resell it to the highest bidder and let someone else worry about the whole thing.
      What does that have to do with Godaddy? You bought an infringing domain and the trademark owner, not Godaddy, sends you a cease and desists, as they should do to protect their trademark.
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      • Profile picture of the author DreamWarrior
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        What does that have to do with Godaddy? You bought an infringing domain and the trademark owner, not Godaddy, sends you a cease and desists, as they should do to protect their trademark.

        Let me refrase what i'd written. I didn't buy a domain name with the wording 'godaddy' in it.

        The letter was sent by a third party via godaddy stating that the domain name that was transfered over to me (which i legally bought and only had a portion of the company's name) was trademarked.

        They were quite intimidating with telling us to transfer the name back to them within a certain amount of time or else!

        If they knew this before they let me buy the domain, then why allow us to purchase it in the first place? Why not buy every single domain name they can think of that includes their initials??

        We never used the name in any way to breach infringement. We were only the owners of a domain name that partially had 3 letters (in the same order) of a company that trademarked their name.

        For example (not actual), KFC. Let's say we purchased KFCParties.com. If your company is Kid's Funky Creature Parties, then it is not breaching the Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise. The company just happens to have the same initials as KFC.

        We can still use the name, providing we don't associate it to the particular company.
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    • Profile picture of the author aapms
      Trademark your domain name and that way you can send them a copy of their own letter.... Your name and industry are different. you might just get away with it...


      Keep the site and make the letters of demand (word for word) known publicly on the site. If you are not allowed to use a site due to containing a word, then I would have been sued for a lot of money.... I am in Australia.... Laws are different here. You can buy as many domain names in any unregistered name.
      If they take you to court saying your intentions were to buy the name and sell it to them for a profit, your response would be yes and as much as I can get. the same response would come from wallmart. they buy something with another businesses name all over it and sell it for a profit............

      Sell it to them for a huge profit...Your on here because you want your own business right? you now have something someone else wants and sounds like they want it pretty bad...
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by aapms View Post

        Keep the site and make the letters of demand (word for word) known publicly on the site. If you are not allowed to use a site due to containing a word, then I would have been sued for a lot of money.... I am in Australia.... Laws are different here. You can buy as many domain names in any unregistered name.
        If they take you to court saying your intentions were to buy the name and sell it to them for a profit, your response would be yes and as much as I can get. the same response would come from wallmart. they buy something with another businesses name all over it and sell it for a profit............

        Sell it to them for a huge profit...Your on here because you want your own business right? you now have something someone else wants and sounds like they want it pretty bad...

        ^^^^^^^^^^^

        follow this brilliant advice only if you love living on the edge and being sued for lots of money
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      • Profile picture of the author matchoo77
        Originally Posted by aapms View Post

        Trademark your domain name and that way you can send them a copy of their own letter.... Your name and industry are different. you might just get away with it...


        Keep the site and make the letters of demand (word for word) known publicly on the site. If you are not allowed to use a site due to containing a word, then I would have been sued for a lot of money.... I am in Australia.... Laws are different here. You can buy as many domain names in any unregistered name.
        If they take you to court saying your intentions were to buy the name and sell it to them for a profit, your response would be yes and as much as I can get. the same response would come from wallmart. they buy something with another businesses name all over it and sell it for a profit............

        Sell it to them for a huge profit...Your on here because you want your own business right? you now have something someone else wants and sounds like they want it pretty bad...
        I believe that is called "domain squatting" and it is illegal in the US if I am not mistaken.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShaneGorry
        Originally Posted by aapms View Post

        I am in Australia.... Laws are different here.
        Yep World Wide Web. No wonder so many people hate it.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by musicaltouch View Post

    They are being total pri%
    They have to be.

    If you do not actively defend and protect your trademark, the courts can rule that you no longer own it and anyone can use it.

    This is the major difference between copyright and trademark. Copyright is passive; you own the copyright just by virtue of creating something.

    Trademark is something that you create by going around being a douchebag to anyone else who tries to use it.

    Similarly, patents are created by taking your proprietary secret that nobody knows and filing it as part of the public record, then running around actively extorting money from anyone else who uses it.

    Yes, I know. Intellectual property is retarded. But the law is the law; hate the game, not the player.

    Especially when every recent attempt to clarify and update IP law for the internet era is met with screams of "censorship" and accusations that all the politicians are in the pockets of big media.
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    • Profile picture of the author agc
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      They have to be.

      If you do not actively defend and protect your trademark, the courts can rule that you no longer own it and anyone can use it.
      I disagree. It is very much possible to defend and protect a trademark without being an arrogant bullying pri*k.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Here's what you do, step-by-step:

    1. Go downtown.

    2. Shave your head in public.

    3. Sing Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star.

    4. Bark like a dog on your way back home.

    5. Eat a bowl of cereal in your closet.

    6. Drape a towel over each arm and spin around really fast.

    I know this advice may not be all that helpful. But it's MUCH, MUCH better than some of the tripe that has been served up in this thread.

    Seriously, some of the advice is the worst I have seen in a legal thread at the WF, and that's saying something!

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author rickstooker
      Take a deep breath and separate your personal feelings from the situation.

      Lawyers are jerks not because they "have" to be, but because they're trained to be. That's why we love lawyer jokes.

      Don't expect or try to get even. They care about your feelings about as much as you do a cockroach you step on.

      Unless you are making serious money from the site, transfer the domain and move on.

      You can register new domains.

      If you're making enough money to justify hiring your own lawyer, find one knowledgable about Internet issues. But expect to pay a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul_1
    Talk to a lawyer... play their game...
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  • Profile picture of the author aizaku
    I would consult an attorney of my own before making anymore moves. You might come out on top if you play your cards right.

    Get consultation first buddy!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    This thread is becoming more LOLZ by the minute!

    This is most likely a Poker bluff to scare the domain holder. You actually have to PROVE infringement in court. DERP!

    PS: With lawyers and insurance companies the bigger the bluff the weaker the case.
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  • Profile picture of the author thekaver
    Originally Posted by musicaltouch View Post

    I wanted your opinion on a my rights as a domain seller.

    I purchased a domain name thru go-daddy auction a couple of years ago.

    The domain is firstamks.com.

    Today, I get a letter demanding I transfer the name back to them as they have trademarked firstam.com.

    They are being total pri% and are requesting me to transfer the domain or sign documents about using my domain.

    I say they have no right. What if I wanted to this site for something that is no relation to their trademark?

    I called their attorney, to tell them we would sell it ,but I would not give her a price because how her letter and approach had offended me.

    She barely had the facts and was not professional on the phone. Almost as if she was a con artist. However the letter does come from a large financial institution, so they have deep pockets to invest in buying the name or taking me to court.


    I will put a price tag on it and put it up for sale.

    Since I own the name for almost two years now, should they have to pay me whatever or live without the name?

    Am I right or wrong?
    they have no rights over the domain whatsoever. You have owned it for 2 years so they have no arguement.

    however I would sell it at the right price to them.

    thanks

    TheKaver
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  • Profile picture of the author badboy703
    man oh man, i would say KEEP THAT DOMAIN! Let them spend all the money they want on attorneys. You bought it out LEGIT
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  • Profile picture of the author Yulia from DNP
    You know, these days you cant even know how its going go turn out when you think you are doing it all right and by rules. BUT, really, its not a questions for a forum, its something you should definitely ask your attorney and not relay on assumptions .
    if you ask me, if their trade-name is within the domain, it can go bad if you keep it
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    • Profile picture of the author Meharis
      I cannot believe this thread looks like if we were in 1996...
      Stop everything you are doing regarding this matter and get advice from a Lawyer.
      Meharis
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    it's actually a very good analogy, the only difference is that you feel more ok pretending to be a doctor than you do pretending to be a lawyer ;-)

    Actually when it comes to anything in life, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. But it sure beats the hell outta complete ignorance.

    There's nothing magical or special about the law any more so than any other area in life.

    In fact, usually (excepting for certain criminal matters) even less so, as royally screwing up on a legal matter can (usually) only cost you money, and then, only if you actually have money. In almost every other area in life, a screw up can cost you your life.

    That shaving cut could get infected and turn into a huge festering mess right on your face. It could spread and become disfiguring, or even life threatening. How do you KNOW you don't have to see a doctor this time?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by agc View Post

      it's actually a very good analogy, the only difference is that you feel more ok pretending to be a doctor than you do pretending to be a lawyer ;-)

      Actually when it comes to anything in life, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. But it sure beats the hell outta complete ignorance.

      There's nothing magical or special about the law any more so than any other area in life.

      In fact, usually (excepting for certain criminal matters) even less so, as royally screwing up on a legal matter can (usually) only cost you money, and then, only if you actually have money. In almost every other area in life, a screw up can cost you your life.

      That shaving cut could get infected and turn into a huge festering mess right on your face. It could spread and become disfiguring, or even life threatening. How do you KNOW you don't have to see a doctor this time?
      LOL

      The first six words of your post say it's a good analogy, but then you spend the rest of your post explaining why it ISN'T a good analogy. I find that quite amusing.

      It's one thing for someone to explain why an analogy doesn't hold water, and quite another for them to give out incredibly unqualified and bad legal advice.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Fish0912
    interesting. What is the result now?
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  • Profile picture of the author cardine
    You should not have replied back to them (or outed your domain name on this thread) without first talking to a lawyer. Period.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Bridgen
    Hi with relate to any domain name if some one has the trademark no matter what you want it for it is not yours and you will lose in court. So lets say you got google.com They forgot to renew it and you was using it as a cooking site. They can say you are using google for traffic to your site. Its the same as eBay or any other site.
    I owned a business and had a trademark cost over $10k with legal expenses and I found out some one was using it for a different business I stopped them for using it
    The same with any name if you are using a name that is not your own and some one has a trade mark on that name you cannot use it. Even to the extent a complete different name lets say you owned a hamburger store and you used a different letter and mad a arch in yeyyor or any colour if big mac thinks it is taken from them they will take you to court and they will win. hope this helps
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  • Profile picture of the author MarQueteer
    Originally Posted by musicaltouch View Post

    I called their attorney, to tell them we would sell it
    Bad move, never offer the domain for sale in cases like this, always wait for them to make an offer -> Cybersquatting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Offering it for sale can easily be used as an indication of bad faith.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      To the OP; I agree with others who've given you very wise advice about separating your emotions from this situation. Clearly you're angered and feel bullied by the company that owns the trademark, as well as by the attorney. But if your primary goals are to "show them", "piss them off" in return, "get revenge", etc., you may find that revenge isn't always so sweet.

      Don't get me wrong; I'm all for standing up for one's rights, but that being said, I also believe in choosing your battles carefully. It doesn't sound like you have much invested in this domain, so perhaps fighting this tooth and nail just to assuage your anger isn't worth the time and money (and other potential consequences) that it may cost you in the end. But if you decide to move forward in fighting it, I recommend you talk to an attorney who is well-versed in trademark law and Internet law. Just my 2 cents...
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      • Profile picture of the author ShaneGorry
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        To the OP; I agree with others who've given you very wise advice about separating your emotions from this situation. Clearly you're angered and feel bullied by the company that owns the trademark, as well as by the attorney. But if your primary goals are to "show them", "piss them off" in return, "get revenge", etc., you may find that revenge isn't always so sweet.

        Don't get me wrong; I'm all for standing up for one's rights, but that being said, I also believe in choosing your battles carefully. It doesn't sound like you have much invested in this domain, so perhaps fighting this tooth and nail just to assuage your anger isn't worth the time and money (and other potential consequences) that it may cost you in the end. But if you decide to move forward in fighting it, I recommend you talk to an attorney who is well-versed in trademark law and Internet law. Just my 2 cents...
        Indeed. And IMO this thread is a good example of why one is better served to react dispassionately.
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      • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        To the OP; I agree with others who've given you very wise advice about separating your emotions from this situation. Clearly you're angered and feel bullied by the company that owns the trademark, as well as by the attorney. But if your primary goals are to "show them", "piss them off" in return, "get revenge", etc., you may find that revenge isn't always so sweet.

        Don't get me wrong; I'm all for standing up for one's rights, but that being said, I also believe in choosing your battles carefully. It doesn't sound like you have much invested in this domain, so perhaps fighting this tooth and nail just to assuage your anger isn't worth the time and money (and other potential consequences) that it may cost you in the end. But if you decide to move forward in fighting it, I recommend you talk to an attorney who is well-versed in trademark law and Internet law. Just my 2 cents...
        ...What she said...

        Many years ago, my wife (now ex) decided she needed to "teach Chrysler a lesson" for an issue that we had over a van we had bought.

        What did I learn from this experience? Anytime you set out to "teach" a multi-million dollar company "a lesson", the only lesson that will be learned is yours!

        You may have some money to afford a lawyer - they have almost unlimited money to hire lawyers (plural). The David vs. Goliath thing may be a romantic notion, but it seldom works out well for David....
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  • Profile picture of the author katnyc
    You may want to read up on ICANN and UDRP proceedings.

    ICANN - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Since the company sold that domain to him and now wants it back, this is not the usual case of trademark infringement that you normally see, and it isn't a clear cut case that the OP would lose this domain if he went to court or if the company filed a UDRP. I would venture to guess that there are plenty of ways he could use this domain that didn't infringe on that company's trademark, but it's still a guess and the OP would still have to fight it if the company wants to pursue it in court.

    So that leaves the question ... is it worth it to the OP to hold his ground and fight for the domain, which would require an attorney or the time to attempt to defend it himself?
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveBagasao
    I had this same issue a few years ago with a Dr Suess site. I just let them have the domain...it wasn't worth the fight.

    In your case, I would think you could make a case that firstamks is not the same as firstam. You could say that it stands for first american kite sailors...just a thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author zakiprofit
      Originally Posted by SteveBagasao View Post

      I had this same issue a few years ago with a Dr Suess site. I just let them have the domain...it wasn't worth the fight.

      In your case, I would think you could make a case that firstamks is not the same as firstam. You could say that it stands for first american kite sailors...just a thought.
      I have the same problem too. They sent me an email.. and asking me to respond. Can I keep quite?????... or do I have to send respond........
      the answer is still the same... they will take my domain ...right?

      So what are the best solution
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      • Profile picture of the author davezan
        Originally Posted by zakiprofit View Post

        So what are the best solution
        If you really want to somehow keep that domain name, then you try to talk to a
        lawyer who specializes in these things. Some give free initial consultations if it's
        a relatively simple case.
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        David

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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Everyone's a lawyer on the internet, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author thesnakeman
    Yes, cjreynolds, the same applies to government departments and their bureaucrats when they do the wrong thing.
    They have deeper pockets than you and often win cases based on their brute strength, rather than being in the right.
    I suppose on an international level it explains why the USA wins every war they fight.
    It's size, not being right that decides who wins.
    All the best
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