"How To SEO Is Not Important Because Content Is King, Says Google Employee"

134 replies
I just found this article on Apex Pacific, what do you think?

How To SEO Is Not Important Because Content Is King, Says Google Employee | Apex Pacific Internet Marketing Blog

Julio
  • Profile picture of the author GeraldNitram
    That "Content is King" line is going to be with us for a long time. I think even the next gen of Internet users will still here that same line when it comes to being found on the Net. I kinda see his standpoint there, because there are some SEO people who are using SEO to "game" the system. From that, I assumed that it's only the black hat people that he's pointing at. Well, I do hope it's just the black hat people because the title's pretty general, if you ask me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      I think in 2012/13 we'll see further developments along the path of 2010/11: the proportion of people achieving success through SEO, and the proportion of businesses flourishing with search engines as their primary source of traffic, will inevitably continue to fall. It would be naive to pretend otherwise, after some of what Google has said publicly.

      More and more people are realizing that a business that depends on Google for its primary traffic can only ever be one algorithm-change away from an accident ... or even a disaster. As so many learned in 2011, some to their great cost.

      Building relationships will always be a safer long-term proposition than building backlinks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ord Allenbea
    SEO will never die no matter how much content is king. You can write high quality content and still have your SEO.

    By the way I love this line on that blog post

    should employees be allowed to freely speak their mind regardless of the consequences?
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  • Profile picture of the author lukedidit
    If 'Content is King' then what about a Business website?

    If I go onto a website which sells nuts, bolts and screws, are they also going to have write a blog about 'nuts, bolts and screws' full of 'epic new fresh unique content'?

    How about if a site is really good for providing a quick easy price matrix on nuts, bolts and screws. Am I not going to find them as someone has a similar site with inferior products, poor price transparency yet has 100 pages of blog posts tacked on?

    Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by lukedidit View Post

      If 'Content is King' then what about a Business website?

      If I go onto a website which sells nuts, bolts and screws, are they also going to have write a blog about 'nuts, bolts and screws' full of 'epic new fresh unique content'?

      How about if a site is really good for providing a quick easy price matrix on nuts, bolts and screws. Am I not going to find them as someone has a similar site with inferior products, poor price transparency yet has 100 pages of blog posts tacked on?

      Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?
      I couldnt agree more with this statement.

      My father operated an engineering business for close to 30 years. He also employed about 35 people.

      Sure he had a website, but as an engineer, he never had any intention of sitting there day in day out blogging about chain sets and harmonic balancers.

      Some people just want a basic online presence. They dont give a rats arse about building a loyal following or social media.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by lukedidit View Post

      If 'Content is King' then what about a Business website?

      If I go onto a website which sells nuts, bolts and screws, are they also going to have write a blog about 'nuts, bolts and screws' full of 'epic new fresh unique content'?

      How about if a site is really good for providing a quick easy price matrix on nuts, bolts and screws. Am I not going to find them as someone has a similar site with inferior products, poor price transparency yet has 100 pages of blog posts tacked on?

      Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?
      And that's the problem. Googles CEO stood before congress and basically said Google doesn't care about businesses, at all, they care about consumers, and this high content high they're on seems to keep on lingering. In their inability to fix the spammer problem they instead decided to just punish everyone. This is why they need competition, more than just bing, that way if they drop the ball other options are available.
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    • Profile picture of the author rosiebrown0
      Originally Posted by lukedidit View Post

      If 'Content is King' then what about a Business website?

      If I go onto a website which sells nuts, bolts and screws, are they also going to have write a blog about 'nuts, bolts and screws' full of 'epic new fresh unique content'?

      How about if a site is really good for providing a quick easy price matrix on nuts, bolts and screws. Am I not going to find them as someone has a similar site with inferior products, poor price transparency yet has 100 pages of blog posts tacked on?

      Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?
      I totally agree with you may be content is king bur SEO is very essential for ones online buisness.
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    • Profile picture of the author Batou
      Originally Posted by lukedidit View Post

      If 'Content is King' then what about a Business website?

      If I go onto a website which sells nuts, bolts and screws, are they also going to have write a blog about 'nuts, bolts and screws' full of 'epic new fresh unique content'?

      How about if a site is really good for providing a quick easy price matrix on nuts, bolts and screws. Am I not going to find them as someone has a similar site with inferior products, poor price transparency yet has 100 pages of blog posts tacked on?

      Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?
      So true. A site doesn't need to have a bunch of articles on it in order to be useful or relevant to the user.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
      Originally Posted by lukedidit View Post

      If 'Content is King' then what about a Business website?

      If I go onto a website which sells nuts, bolts and screws, are they also going to have write a blog about 'nuts, bolts and screws' full of 'epic new fresh unique content'?

      How about if a site is really good for providing a quick easy price matrix on nuts, bolts and screws. Am I not going to find them as someone has a similar site with inferior products, poor price transparency yet has 100 pages of blog posts tacked on?

      Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?
      When I Googled nuts, bolts and screws the wikipedia page on screws was #2.

      All the other top spots are filled with sites filled with content. Obviously you don't need to write articles about screws but you do need to present all the relevant information in a user friendly way.

      No-one is arguing against basic SEO. Indeed, amazing unique content is basic SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author frankl
    I think the problem is that Google can't tell which content is quality content. After all, it's just a machine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ord Allenbea
      No Google is a Business

      As for content quality - Yes they can tell the quality, grade that quality, check it for grammar and spelling, check the grade level, check it for relations and semantics. You would be surprised at what those mini "machines" that they call spiders can do.

      Originally Posted by frankl View Post

      I think the problem is that Google can't tell which content is quality content. After all, it's just a machine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by frankl View Post

      I think the problem is that Google can't tell which content is quality content.
      It seems to me that they've consistently been improving at that over the last 3 years and can now do it well and reliably.

      The extent to which "quality content" is rewarded by Google continues to increase.

      They say that's part of a continuing process, too - and from all the developments I've been watching, I believe them.

      Originally Posted by owais View Post

      Seo is the king its true. It effected on our Page rank.
      How's that working out for you? :rolleyes:

      I stopped believing in those, just around the time that Google did. We can all see for ourselves, from the regularity with which lower-PR pages with fewer backlinks are outranking higher-PR pages with more backlinks, in Google's SERP's, (and from a lot of other things, too), that PR isn't worth too much, these days.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimboJim
    BS, nothing but BS. SEO is incredibly important, and Google knows it. Google does backlinking all the time for their own services.

    For example, has anyone heard what happened to Chrome? Their rankings dropped recently, because Google broke their own ToS. They bought high PR links from other websites to catapult the Chrome page above IE, Firefox, etc.

    Nothing but hypocrisy.

    PS: Google only dropped the Chrome PR by one point for 60 days, and that's because people found out what they were doing. If any other website does this, they get a huge drop in SERPs.
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  • Profile picture of the author owais
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      • Profile picture of the author JulioGarabot
        Matching content to query
        Subsequently, I want to take this opportunity to reinforce the fact that SEO plays an incredibly important part in driving users to your website by ensuring it is a "good match" with relevant keywords your target audience searches for. Simply using marketing channels such as email marketing or social media are not enough. Take for example, if you were to write an article on "refrigerators" when your target audience actually searches for "fridges". If you don't properly optimize your article using SEO techniques, how can you ensure it'll rank for the keywords that actually are important to you? You need to match content to query orcontent can remain virtually invisible to search engines. It then becomes difficult to reach an audience outside of those who are already part of your mailing list or social network. The fact is Google cannot determine if a website is the best keywords to match with your website based on non-optimized content alone.
        I think what they are trying to underline here is that any quality content needs to be SEO. Just Quality content wont be placed where it should be without SEO

        Julio
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Social signals.

    </thread>

    But seriously, Ive seen sites that have HORRIBLE seo, and yet seemingly great content.

    Where are they in the SERPS?

    ....nowhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Quality content is SEO. Think about that for a moment please.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Coutts
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Quality content is SEO. Think about that for a moment please.
      Yes.

      The free download (with no optin), Ranking Without Page Rank Or Links, from the top right-hand side of this page: (not an affiliate link either) explains the value of properly themed content, and how it will typically rank high without links. It's worth reading.

      John.
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      • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
        Originally Posted by John Coutts View Post

        Yes.

        The free download (with no optin), Ranking Without Page Rank Or Links, from the top right-hand side of this page: (not an affiliate link either) explains the value of properly themed content, and how it will typically rank high without links. It's worth reading.

        John.
        I Read through this entire thing. First off all this is talking about is onpage SEO. Anyone who is any good at SEO knows how important LSI is to your on-page optimization. Of course related words and themes will rank you higher. Of course the more keywords you rank for the more traffic you get. Finally you don't need his software to write quality articles. If it's only down to related themes to create a quality article I might as well put up some ridiculous gibberish and watch it rank...

        Google was originally called Backrub (Seriosuly, just Google it ...) and was designed around websites linking to others and counting as votes. This is part of why Google became so popular and successful.

        So by anyone saying that backlinking and off-page SEO is not important you are pretty much saying that Google does not work the way it is designed.

        Case in point when a bunch of marketers wanted to make it so when you typed in Google "most despicable person" George Bush showed up they went and did crazy off -page SEO so that Whitehouse.gov showed up at position #1 - This is the only instance I know of where Google actually manually affected a webpage's ranking.

        Another case that shows that even if you on-page is terrible you can rank based solely on your backlinks is Adobe ranking for "click here" even to this day. They have hardly any information on that page and if you search you will find that click here is not anywhere on this page.

        So how can anyone say that "content is king"? and ignore all other SEO factors? The problem isn't SEO it's the implementation of it. Content is just one important factor of good SEO.

        Also the more people believe SEO is dead the better it is for those of us who understand it and make a lot of money utilizing it effectively on our websites and for our clients.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    Originally Posted by JulioGarabot View Post

    Personally, I find SEO to be effective and never believe what a Google employee says about anything
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  • Profile picture of the author ciel
    Originally Posted by JulioGarabot View Post

    Do ya think Google is going to disclose how to achieve real rankings? They will never, its all about testing & finding the good way to do niche specific SEO to achieve top rankings. Just my two cents

    Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    Remember that Google doesn't want webmasters to have any influence over where their sites are in the SERPS (other than doing the bare minimum of SEO -just enough to let Google know what a particular page is about).

    When it comes to SEO, the easier something is for the webmaster to control the less impact it has with Google.

    And the harder something is to control the more impact it has.

    For example:

    Easy: Putting a keyword in your <title> an <h> tags takes seconds an is easy to do. It will help with SEO but won't have a great impact.

    Hard: Getting 10 authority websites to link to your site is much more diificult to organize. It will have a massive impact.

    Google are always going to discourage webmasters to spend time on SEO but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    That's just a BS line that Google comes out with to try and discourage new SEOs from solely on backlinks. Truth is that you can have great content and no backlinks, therefore no rankings. But you can have awful content and great backlinks, therefore greating rankings.

    Obviously Google isn't going to say this because more people would try and game the search engine more than they do now. The real long term SEO approach isn't just supplying great content, it's great content and great backlinks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Truth is that you can have great content and no backlinks, therefore no rankings.
    You should qualify that statement. It depends on much more then that!
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    • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      You should qualify that statement. It depends on much more then that!
      Most SEOs will know what I mean, but that means no internal or external backlinks.
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      • Profile picture of the author JEasy
        It's a bug that you could rank highly in Google without buying ads, and Google is trying to fix the bug.
        It seems that this is what it's really all about. How can Google determine the best content for someone searching for information between two well-written pieces of content? One may show up and the other may not. However, both could be as equally relevant to the users query. /shrug
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Ok, lets delve a little deeper. I work at a hyper-local level and offsite SEO is "rarely" required to rank a site on the first page of Google.

        If you are competing in a niche nationally the story is quite different obviously, However, great content is a major factor in my opinion.

        Originally Posted by Rough Outline View Post

        Most SEOs will know what I mean, but that means no internal or external backlinks.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          Ok, lets delve a little deeper. I work at a hyper-local level and offsite SEO is "rarely" required to rank a site on the first page of Google.

          If you are competing in a niche nationally the story is quite different obviously, However, great content is a major factor in my opinion.
          That's down to the extremely low levels of competition, if you get your on-page seo right then you'll get rankings because of the lack of competition.

          If you want to rank for a term across the whole of america or the uk then perfect on page seo will not get you anywhere in most cases.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            Yes nationally versus local you can say there is a huge difference between the two. But there are niches at a local level that are pretty competitive within that given space.

            Originally Posted by Rough Outline View Post

            That's down to the extremely low levels of competition, if you get your on-page seo right then you'll get rankings because of the lack of competition.

            If you want to rank for a term across the whole of america or the uk then perfect on page seo will not get you anywhere in most cases.
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by Rough Outline View Post

        Most SEOs will know what I mean, but that means no internal or external backlinks.
        now, that's laughable. How many sites do you know about have no internal or external links?


        come on!
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  • Profile picture of the author richrowley
    When I see that content is King it backs up what I keep seeing about bounce rate. If your bounce rate is low, your rankings go up - or at least thats what I keep seeing, hearing and reading.

    A low bounce rate means that your keeping visitors on your site, your providing an answer to a search query, therefore your content is good quality and what a searcher is after, then google ranks you higher.

    To me good content = low bounce rate = higher ranking

    If you added a video that kept a visitors attention and reduced your bounce rate wouldnt that be classed as good content?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    If you added a video that kept a visitors attention and reduced your bounce rate wouldnt that be classed as good content?
    One of the post Panda factors is engaging content, what do videos do? They engage site visitors to stay a little longer on the site.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by JulioGarabot View Post

    I just found this article on Apex Pacific, what do you think?
    This is the goal of all search engines.

    Basically, the ability to use SEO and get higher rankings for your website is a bug in the system, and it's treated as a bug. Every search engine team is trying to find a way that SEO can be stomped on like the distasteful vermin they think it is.

    Unfortunately, they have to make a certain tradeoff, namely that they cannot possibly examine every single web page they index... not closely enough to detect and squash all the SEO, anyway.

    So as long as your site is a tiny little corner of the web that doesn't matter to anyone, none of the search engines give a crap. You don't get enough traffic to piss off enough people to be worth their time. And that's why the MFA empires that actually work have thousands of sites across dozens of niches on multiple hosting accounts: if you were getting all that traffic in one place, the search engines would start paying attention.

    But if your keywords are only getting a few hundred searches a month, and each of your sites is only getting a few dozen visitors a day, nobody at Google or Bing or wherever gives a crap what you're doing. It is just as easy for them to stomp on JC Penney's little SEO scheme as it is to stomp on yours, but stomping on yours will only improve the search experience of a few hundred people. It isn't worth their time.

    It's just like drugs. If you sit around your house alone smoking weed you grow yourself, chances are you will never get arrested. If you fire up a major operation producing marijuana and hash oil for nationwide distribution, chances are you will be caught and arrested and never get out of jail. So while SEO on your own little micro-niche sites will probably not get you in trouble, selling your "guaranteed page one service" to people building huge authority sites in popular niches will probably be a short ride.
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  • Profile picture of the author mrclean78
    What good is content if your site has no backlinks and you are ranked #300? I hate google and their disinformation in statements like this. It's just them trying to manipulate you... You can have a great site with great content and if it has NO SEO work done no-one is going to find you, period.
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  • Profile picture of the author AppsFromHome
    I have a site with two 850 word articles...thats IT! And I have been backlinking it throughout the year as it maintains prominent positions on the first page of Google for highly competitive keywords....no upating at all.

    I have other pages that I keep fresh content on all the time, but don't need to SEO....because of no backlinks, they appear no where within the first 5 pages of the SERPS.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Id like to see this debunked.

    Two members start identical sites.

    One with SEO and the other with "quality content"

    I know which site Ill be putting my money on!
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Two members start identical sites.

      One that cheats and the other playing fair

      I know which site Ill be putting my money on!
      Fixed that for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Fixed that for you.
        How is ethical white hat search engine optimisation, cheating??????

        Here, have a look at this site. This is a local painter in my area, he sells his work at the weekend markets here in Sydney. Hes a great bloke, and I quite like his paintings.

        http://www.borettoart.com/

        Anyone who knows anything about SEO, will know within just a few moments of looking at his site, that it isnt optimised, and because of the sites poor performance in terms of sales, he's given up on it.

        He said to me last weekend..."I spent so much time and money on that website - it was a mistake - in one year, I sold 1 painting". He was really upset about it.

        I know this isnt the best example in terms of "content" but still, to suggest that SEO in itself isn't important, is madness, and to be honest, Id say that theres about 1,000,000,000 SEO firms out there that would agree with me.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
          Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

          How is ethical white hat search engine optimisation, cheating??????

          Here, have a look at this site. This is a local painter in my area, he sells his work at the weekend markets here in Sydney. Hes a great bloke, and I quite like his paintings.

          * - Homepage

          Anyone who knows anything about SEO, will know within just a few moments of looking at his site, that it isnt optimised, and because of the sites poor performance in terms of sales, he's given up on it.

          He said to me last weekend..."I spent so much time and money on that website - it was a mistake - in one year, I sold 1 painting". He was really upset about it.

          I know this isnt the best example in terms of "content" but still, to suggest that SEO in itself isn't important, is madness, and to be honest, Id say that theres about 1,000,000,000 SEO firms out there that would agree with me.

          As I recall, the argument about White Hat SEO being unethical seems to have started with backlinks. Originally, search engines found that they could give weight to a site based on how many people (on other sites) were "linking back" to it. In other words, they were referring people to that site.

          By counting the number of referrals, and now the quality of those referrals, they are able to guess a bit better whether people searching for content will like what the search engine refers them to.

          By purposely getting hundreds or thousands of non-organic backlinks, you are "cheating" at what they wanted to be a natural and very useful system for them to make their own referrals.

          On the other hand, marketing has been marketing since... forever. Any Chamber of Commerce meeting has the desperate salesperson handing out his business card to everyone he can get to take it, while the real money-makers invest their time in building friendships and giving out as many referrals as they can to other people.


          It may also be worth noting that very few small, local business owners who buy their $1,000 listing from the Yellow Pages expect to get more than one or two sales per year. For them, word-of-mouth is always going to be "King".
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          • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
            Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

            On the other hand, marketing has been marketing since... forever. Any Chamber of Commerce meeting has the desperate salesperson handing out his business card to everyone he can get to take it, while the real money-makers invest their time in building friendships and giving out as many referrals as they can to other people.
            Thanks but no thanks. I'll take the honest hard working salesman and his business card over your weasel 'friendship'. Do you really think that it's better to lube people up for one big pay day. The so called 'guru' way. Who do you think customers feel screwed most over by: The guy with the annoying but harmless Adsense sites or the dude on the internet pretending to be your friend so he could make you pay for an overprized ebook?
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            • Profile picture of the author Kael41
              Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

              Thanks but no thanks. I'll take the honest hard working salesman and his business card over your weasel 'friendship'.
              How much offline, real world experience do you have in say big business transactions? I only ask because generally it's NOT the sales guy handing out his card that gets invited to the big dance, it's the relationships developed before hand that engender the invitation of a business transaction. That speaks to both on the online as well as offline world. I've been involved personally in several million dollar plus deals with the litigation world offline, and I can tell you up front, that my company didn't get the deal because we handed someone a business card..our reputation and established relationships did that for us.

              Don't read this as me knocking the sales guy cold calling, there's definitely a place for that as well. But as the dollars go up, it's generally not the cold callers who are getting the big deals...
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
              Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

              Thanks but no thanks. I'll take the honest hard working salesman and his business card over your weasel 'friendship'. Do you really think that it's better to lube people up for one big pay day. The so called 'guru' way. Who do you think customers feel screwed most over by: The guy with the annoying but harmless Adsense sites or the dude on the internet pretending to be your friend so he could make you pay for an overprized ebook?

              rotflmao @ myself... WOW, OK then... Obviously I have once again written in a manner that leaves too many interpretations open? :rolleyes:


              1. I was absolutely not writing about the honest, hard working, professional salesperson. On the contrary, most Chamber of Commerce and Trade Associations have as one of their primary purposes the networking and meeting of others, and I strongly encourage everyone to join their local organizations and work your tail off. The fact that many of these meetings tend to be full of old men telling jokes at the bar and otherwise avoiding their wives notwithstanding, you are there to meet people, pitch your products and ideas, and exchange contact information. So when I am approached by one of these young men or women, I generally give them undivided attention and full consideration.

              What I meant to describe was the person who talks too much, asks questions to which he really doesn't care about the answers (obvious by the fact that he doesn't listen, because he is trying to interrupt with what he wants to say next), and believes that he has to give out 250 business cards while at a fundraiser or luncheon with 30 attendants.


              2. And, I was absolutely not writing about "lubing" anyone for a big payday. On the contrary, I was talking about the way business has been done for tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years: People will always prefer to do business with their (very real) friends, not only once but repeatedly over the course of lifetimes, and even generations.



              3. It would be quite silly (read: stupid) to base your entire business on the idea that you can "pretend" to be someone's friend over the Internet (where Trust is already in the red with most people) in an attempt to sell an e-book, or anything else. Most people are quite savvy and can see through such BS in the same way that they can see through blind-copy salespages that scream at you to buy so that you can make $5,000 tomorrow.


              On the other hand, developing very real friendships (over the course of years, not days or weeks), speaking to people online and offline... That is has nothing to do with being a "guru" (still hate that word, it just sounds stupid) and it is the way billions of successful business owners around the world operate.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

          How is ethical white hat search engine optimisation, cheating??????
          It's cheating because you write for a machine that tells people you wrote what they want.

          Instead of, you know, writing what they want.

          You can tell, because the discussion isn't about what customers want. It's about what makes the machine tell people your site is what they want.

          And since you never talk about what they actually want, you don't care.

          That's what makes it cheating. It's not that you want to be on the top of the search rankings that's cheating. It's that you would rather be there than belong there.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            It's cheating because you write for a machine that tells people you wrote what they want.

            Instead of, you know, writing what they want.

            You can tell, because the discussion isn't about what customers want. It's about what makes the machine tell people your site is what they want.

            And since you never talk about what they actually want, you don't care.

            That's what makes it cheating. It's not that you want to be on the top of the search rankings that's cheating. It's that you would rather be there than belong there.
            You're making an assumption that my SEO strategies are based on writing to suit algorithms. You're wrong dude

            I use SEO to position my sites, then I use high quality content to keep my visitors there, once they arrive.

            So I guess we could argue the point all day long, but in reality, its a combination of both. Its chicken and egg stuff.

            By the way, get a haircut.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

              You're making an assumption that my SEO strategies are based on writing to suit algorithms. You're wrong dude
              Then it's not SEO. SEO is Search Engine Optimisation. It's optimising your site for search engines. Not for people. Because you care what the search engine does with your site. If you are not writing to suit the algorithms of the search engine, then you are not doing Search Engine Optimisation (SEO).

              in reality, its a combination of both.
              Well, yeah. Cheating at anything involves a combination of playing fair when people are looking, and cheating when they are not looking. But if there's any cheating in your strategy at all, you still cheated. Just because some of your moves were legal doesn't excuse the illegal ones.
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              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author mraffiliate
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Then it's not SEO. SEO is Search Engine Optimisation. It's optimising your site for search engines. Not for people. Because you care what the search engine does with your site. If you are not writing to suit the algorithms of the search engine, then you are not doing Search Engine Optimisation (SEO).



                Well, yeah. Cheating at anything involves a combination of playing fair when people are looking, and cheating when they are not looking. But if there's any cheating in your strategy at all, you still cheated. Just because some of your moves were legal doesn't excuse the illegal ones.
                Man your funny. I read your posts just to brighten my day. I like how you think, you make a lot of sense.

                When you are ranking local businesses web sites, you want to optimize for visitors so they will convert to customers but you also want to optimize for the SERP's because clients demand that their sites rank in the SERP's.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by mraffiliate View Post

                  When you are ranking local businesses web sites
                  ...they generally don't understand why they have a web site in the first place.

                  I was talking to a dentist once. Once he found out I was an "internet guy" he said with great pride that he just got the domain "KentWashingtonDentist.com" for his web site.

                  I was suitably impressed and asked if he was getting a lot of new patients off it.

                  "We don't accept new patients," he said. "You have to be referred by your insurance company, and we have a waiting list."

                  So I asked why, exactly, he wanted to own KentWashingtonDentist.com in the first place. Existing patients were not going to look on the internet, they were going to call his office. New patients would not look on the internet, either; they would call their insurance to get on the waiting list.

                  Which meant he had a website on the internet that effectively said "Nanny nanny boo boo, you can't come here, PTHBBTT."

                  And he got this look on his face like I just kicked his puppy.

                  See, people are idiots. They think that if they come up at the top of Google, they win something. They think Google is voting for them as the #1 dentist in Kent, Washington. They think people are going "Who is the top dentist?" and asking Google about it.

                  But if I went to Google and searched for "kent washington dentist," odds are that I am from out of town and have been skateboarding at one of the Kent skate parks where I broke a tooth. And if you aren't going to take me as a patient and provide emergency dental care in that scenario, you don't belong at the top of my search results.

                  Which is precisely why SEO sucks.
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                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Which is precisely why SEO sucks.
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                  • Profile picture of the author mraffiliate
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    ...they generally don't understand why they have a web site in the first place.

                    I was talking to a dentist once. Once he found out I was an "internet guy" he said with great pride that he just got the domain "KentWashingtonDentist.com" for his web site.

                    I was suitably impressed and asked if he was getting a lot of new patients off it.

                    "We don't accept new patients," he said. "You have to be referred by your insurance company, and we have a waiting list."

                    So I asked why, exactly, he wanted to own KentWashingtonDentist.com in the first place. Existing patients were not going to look on the internet, they were going to call his office. New patients would not look on the internet, either; they would call their insurance to get on the waiting list.

                    Which meant he had a website on the internet that effectively said "Nanny nanny boo boo, you can't come here, PTHBBTT."

                    And he got this look on his face like I just kicked his puppy.

                    See, people are idiots. They think that if they come up at the top of Google, they win something. They think Google is voting for them as the #1 dentist in Kent, Washington. They think people are going "Who is the top dentist?" and asking Google about it.

                    But if I went to Google and searched for "kent washington dentist," odds are that I am from out of town and have been skateboarding at one of the Kent skate parks where I broke a tooth. And if you aren't going to take me as a patient and provide emergency dental care in that scenario, you don't belong at the top of my search results.

                    Which is precisely why SEO sucks.
                    I think I get your point. A wedding photographer / Videographer hired me 30 days ago to rank his site. After making changes to his site / pages he has received 146 unique visitors to his site from the SERPs and 22 of those visitors filled out the contact form plus another half dozen called him.

                    I spoke to this guy on the phone yesterday and asked how many of those contacts booked him, and he said none so far. After asking some questions, I realized he is basically pricing himself out of the market. His packages start out so high, even though he lives in a large city, that people in this economy aren't willing to fork out what he is asking.

                    I have done my job by sending him targeted traffic but it isn't up to me to convert those contacts. He stressed to me that he is focusing only on the high end client. Well, in this economy, good luck. But in his mind I'm not doing my job because he has no conversions.

                    I'm about to tell him if he wants to cater to only high end clients, he needs to advertise in the high end magazines and fork out multi thousands of dollars each month for advertising.
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                    • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
                      Originally Posted by mraffiliate View Post

                      I think I get your point. A wedding photographer / Videographer hired me 30 days ago to rank his site. After making changes to his site / pages he has received 146 unique visitors to his site from the SERPs and 22 of those visitors filled out the contact form plus another half dozen called him.

                      I spoke to this guy on the phone yesterday and asked how many of those contacts booked him, and he said none so far. After asking some questions, I realized he is basically pricing himself out of the market. His packages start out so high, even though he lives in a large city, that people in this economy aren't willing to fork out what he is asking.

                      I have done my job by sending him targeted traffic but it isn't up to me to convert those contacts. He stressed to me that he is focusing only on the high end client. Well, in this economy, good luck. But in his mind I'm not doing my job because he has no conversions.

                      I'm about to tell him if he wants to cater to only high end clients, he needs to advertise in the high end magazines and fork out multi thousands of dollars each month for advertising.
                      Sounds to me like you were doing an excellent job for him! If he is getting visits and no conversions than yes it is a problem on his end not yours, unless of course they are not laser targeted visitors.

                      I personally feel there is targeted and then there is laser targeted. Case in point "make money" VS "make money online" if you had an online business regardless if make money gets more searches which would you rather be at position #1 in Google for?
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                      • Profile picture of the author mraffiliate
                        Originally Posted by dsbusiness23 View Post

                        Sounds to me like you were doing an excellent job for him! If he is getting visits and no conversions than yes it is a problem on his end not yours, unless of course they are not laser targeted visitors.

                        I personally feel there is targeted and then there is laser targeted. Case in point "make money" VS "make money online" if you had an online business regardless if make money gets more searches which would you rather be at position #1 in Google for?
                        These are laser targeted long tail local keywords. They are interested enough to fill out the contact form but when they get the quote on what the wedding packages will cost them, they don't convert.

                        The client even told me yesterday that people are wanting his business but since he is unwilling to come down on his prices, they don't book him. People are telling him "hey I want you to do my wedding, but my budget is this, can you do it" and the answer is no.
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                        • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
                          Originally Posted by mraffiliate View Post

                          These are laser targeted long tail local keywords. They are interested enough to fill out the contact form but when they get the quote on what the wedding packages will cost them, they don't convert.

                          The client even told me yesterday that people are wanting his business but since he is unwilling to come down on his prices, they don't book him. People are telling him "hey I want you to do my wedding, but my budget is this, can you do it" and the answer is no.
                          That is really sad to hear. I mean I can understand the guy wanting to make a living, but really how can he expect to get business and money if he keeps turning everyone away. He seriously needs a business consultant it sounds like.

                          Does he not understand that before people buy from you, you basically have to give them something free? Something of real value to them. I would love to see how this guy would react if someone told him he should do a big "sale"
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                          • Profile picture of the author mraffiliate
                            Originally Posted by dsbusiness23 View Post

                            That is really sad to hear. I mean I can understand the guy wanting to make a living, but really how can he expect to get business and money if he keeps turning everyone away. He seriously needs a business consultant it sounds like.

                            Does he not understand that before people buy from you, you basically have to give them something free? Something of real value to them. I would love to see how this guy would react if someone told him he should do a big "sale"
                            This guy and his wife are a team and they do really great work and I believe last year or a couple of years ago they did charge a lower price and had a lot of weddings but I think it worked them really hard so they said they only need 2 weddings a month to make a decent living now that they have raised their prices.

                            2 weddings a month doesn't seem that difficult but people are looking for lower prices to pay for their wedding photos / videos even though it is one of the most important days of a brides life.

                            In order to get the type of client he needs, he will probably need to advertise in the really high end magazines which will eat up any profits he makes in advertising.

                            If he was smart, he would accept a couple bookings each month at a lower rate and try and upsell the client just like all these portraits studios do when they offer a free 8x10 photo or a very low cost portrait package and when the customer see's the wonderful, beautiful photos of their little angle they are easily upsold.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeoKnightsInc
    Content is king only with SEO. I myself has experienced this. I had posted regularly about 15 articles all 500+ words all unique and to be very frank that site was not even in top 100 nor top 200 neither 500. Google was evolved with the concept of backlinks and it can never devalue them.
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    • Profile picture of the author bobcarlsjr
      Originally Posted by pbbiet View Post

      Content is king only with SEO. I myself has experienced this. I had posted regularly about 15 articles all 500+ words all unique and to be very frank that site was not even in top 100 nor top 200 neither 500. Google was evolved with the concept of backlinks and it can never devalue them.
      i dont mean to doubt you but i am the exact opposite..

      page 1.. and i do no off-site seo work at all. in fact on-site seo is also not done..

      i write about 1-2 content a week, that's it.. 1st page google..

      competition in "" is 90,000.. so might not be that high though..
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  • Profile picture of the author Kael41
    Some of you guys are forgetting the almighty variable..what your competitors are doing to rank well within the serps. Content isn't just King with SEO. As someone mentioned above, social cues are playing more and more in how Google finds a site relevant or not. Yea, I can throw together a 10-15 page site today on a good microniche category and get it to rank fairly quickly..why?

    Because the top 10-15 sites for my targeted subject matter (notice I didn't say keywords) have done a poor job of doing anything remotely worthwhile in getting their rank placement or keeping their rank placement. In my eyes, it's almost unfair with what I'm about to do to that little niche. It's like placing an nfl linebacker into a pee wee league game to sack a little kid quarterback.

    But the reason I can say it with that much authority, is because it's been proven time and time again. Smaller niches are easier to dominate. National niches, subject matter..a littler harder. You just need to branch out from your usual article marketing, and backlinking. Start building seo profiles about what you need to do and stick to it. It's all about being relevant to the reader and to Google. Show them you have fast site for quick user interaction. Show them you're being talked about on Twitter and Facebook (and yes even Myspace). Show them you're in directories.

    Pro-tip folks: Google doesn't just have one index. Several of their trusted "algorhythms" will take input from one index and add it to the other to build on whether a site is relevant/trusted/good/etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brandon Tanner
    Originally Posted by JulioGarabot View Post

    I just found this article on Apex Pacific, what do you think?
    I think we should pay attention to what Google actually does, instead of what they say they do (which are often two completely different things).

    They throw up so many SEO "smokescreens" it's not even funny. Not that I blame them, because they know that if they didn't do that, a lot more people would realize how (relatively) easy it is to manipulate their search results.

    Just sayin'.
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    • Profile picture of the author bobcarlsjr
      partly correct partly wrong..


      the wrong part:
      seo IS important.. (although it is not everything)..

      the correct part:
      content is king.. (has always and will always be)

      case in point.. i only do on-site SEO.. i dont add backlinks, don't buy forum profile b$, nothing.. and for all my sites i am on page 1.. highest page 2...

      this has proven to myself that content is really KING.. although i must add proper SEO won't hurt though..
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    • Profile picture of the author capitalalchemy
      "Content is king" is like the most annoying, catchy hipster term ever.

      It's been around for a long time, and people have tried to stick to it, but even 7+ years ago it got them nowhere. So somehow SEO is dead and this catch phrase is more powerful?

      I don't practice SEO, I practice good content standards.

      The day that Wikipedia stops formatting their onsite content the way they do will be the day that I admit SEO is dead.

      To suggest that SEO is irrelevant is to suggest that books should be published with the cover on the back, the last chapter in the beginning, to leave out the table of contents, and format each page so that you read from bottom to top.

      You can look at the top 10 for most search terms, study the websites and see that they aren't doing 100% to make their content more powerful.

      So it's no surprise that someone like myself can come along, and take the time to do those things that other webmasters aren't willing to do and outrank them, but Google is suggesting otherwise.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjw
    Content IS king, but you have to get people those to read it... Hello SEO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by mjw View Post

      Content IS king, but you have to get people those to read it... Hello SEO.

      no, hello traffic! And you don't have to completely rely on just search engines for traffic. Just saying.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    The real question is what you are doing with your traffic.

    If you can get thousands of people to come to your site by writing articles that rank well for the term "bite my wiener," that does not mean a damn thing unless you are somehow going to get money from those people.

    That means you need to have ads people will click on, or products they will buy. You can't just have some random ad or some random product. You need something that people who are searching for "bite my wiener" actually care about. Like special wiener condiments or something. ("Now in mesquite barbecue!")

    Now, which of those things do you suppose is usually the problem? Do you think you aren't making money because your site doesn't rank high enough for "bite my wiener," or is it because you don't have anything those people want?

    Because if you insist on making it a numbers game, the very least you can do is look at the right number.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author arnold55
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      The real question is what you are doing with your traffic.

      If you can get thousands of people to come to your site by writing articles that rank well for the term "bite my wiener," that does not mean a damn thing unless you are somehow going to get money from those people.

      That means you need to have ads people will click on, or products they will buy. You can't just have some random ad or some random product. You need something that people who are searching for "bite my wiener" actually care about. Like special wiener condiments or something. ("Now in mesquite barbecue!")

      Now, which of those things do you suppose is usually the problem? Do you think you aren't making money because your site doesn't rank high enough for "bite my wiener," or is it because you don't have anything those people want?

      Because if you insist on making it a numbers game, the very least you can do is look at the right number.
      yep.....
      i am number one on google for "deals for cheap *******s" with over 1.6 million competing pages check it out...(you-cheap*******.com)
      the question is why? and what good is it? by god it doen't matter i am #1!!! thats all i care!

      side note- trade you my cheap ******* site for your wiener site....

      another side note- i had ranked #1 for "deals for cheap *******s" with no content at all.....just back links. the site was created just to prove a point.

      my money will always be on SEO. SEO is more than just linking. it is promoting and campaigning.

      content is "king" when their are no competing content for that particular phrase.

      if you don't agree with me you can "byte CDarllock's wiener!
      and......if you don't use my SEO service you are just a "cheap *******"

      ok i got to go.....i have to go rank for other worthless keywords.

      have a good day
      mike reynolds
      arnold55
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  • Profile picture of the author protectyoursales
    Saying that SEO isn't important is waaaaaaay to broad of a statement.

    Just like saying that content is king is waaaaaaaaaaay to broad of a statement.

    Neither can be completely true because there are contradictory scenarios for each rule.

    However, the biggest problem with the Content is King vs. SEO statement to me is that SEO in itself is a dynamic strategy.

    I mean think about it...What does SEO stand for? Search engine optimization.

    SEO will ALWAYS stand for one thing, and that is: "Optimization with the goal of increased traffic through search engines". SEO isn't a static set of practices or techniques that stays the same year after year through algorithm change after algorithm change, it is a dynamic, constantly shifting set of techniques that is incorporated into everything from publishing content to promoting it.

    SEO does not just refer to spamming article directories and pointing Xrumer blasts. If you want to have ANY hope of getting search traffic, then to say that SEO isn't important is in effect saying that promotion isn't important.

    Content is not king; the king is the person who does the best job of getting eyes on their content, which by definition means taking into account the state and structure of Google's algorithm...

    Unless you're not even trying to get search traffic, but then it seems obvious that SEO wouldn't be important. Right?
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    Can anybody link to where Jonathan Rockway made the statements quoted by Apex Pacific? I'd just like to read his quotes with more surrounding context.

    And by the way, anything you do to gain search engine visibility, including producing good content, can be considered SEO, which makes the statement, "How To SEO Is Not Important Because Content Is King", somewhat paradoxical. I think they were talking about techniques commonly regarded as blackhat though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gunpal5
    You should not believe on everything you read.. SEO will work until search engine is based on a algorithm...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    When people say things like "what use is good content when no-one ever finds the site it's on to read it" I can sympathize but they are missing the point of good content.

    Content is not good on its own, without anyone reading it. For it to 'be' good there must be other people who consider it good.

    The question is good for what?

    good for a laugh
    good because it offers useful information
    good because it is an interesting read
    etc.

    We can say that content is good if there are people who find it useful.

    The more specific an article (or video) the fewer people there will be who find it good (for whatever reason).

    The broader an article (or video) the more people there will be who find it good.

    There will be less search engine competition for the very specific content then there will be for the more general content.

    On top of this, the more general content is the less good/useful it will be. One general article about autoresponders, dog bowls, political humour, tends to be not much better (or worse) than hundreds of other similar articles. The 'use-value' of each individual article is low (even if it's nicely written and making a valid point).

    An article that only 50 people a month will find good/useful (because it caters for a very specific need) will probably have no trouble at all being found by all those 50 people through a simple Google search.

    An article that only 500 people a month are looking for will probably face a bit more competition but if it is better than the competition - in that it is more useful - it will fare better in the search engines.

    Why it fares better is down to various factors:
    • The articles or video tend to be (but are not always) longer. People spend longer on the site.
    • People tend to recommend more useful sites (no-one recommends blog containing 500 near-indentical posts all promoting the same weight-loss supplement). More useful sites are the ones with better articles.
    • Longer articles, written naturally, work better than shorter, keyword stuffed articles.
    So what do you do with (potentially) good content?

    If it is an article or video on a very broad subject with a wide appeal - and you don't have an established website - then your best bet is to get this content on an established website. Get your name know and soon people will be seeking out your site. Traffic will come from your syndicated article, from links people have left in forums and on other blog posts.

    If it an an article or video on a very specific subject with a limited appeal then the chances are that you won't need an established website for people searching Google to find it. You can give yourself a hand by finding discussion forums where this select group meet an making a post dropping your link. No-one will mind or call it spam because you are linking to a genuinely useful article.

    In short, if the content you have created is good - you can always find people to read/watch it.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Sneen
    Google cannot tell quality--they can only spot indicators that typically accompany quality posts. But, rather than try and buffalo them, why not do quality anyway? The visitors to your site, not Google....or Yahoo and Bing are the ultimate graders of the site.
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    David Sneen
    It's what you do when no one is watching
    that determines what you will be able to
    do when everyone is watching.
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  • Profile picture of the author Snow_Predator
    Google only have their own interests in mind. Artificial link-building is a pain for Google to deal with, so they'd much rather lie and tell us all that the only thing that matters is quality content.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Snow_Predator View Post

      People in general only have their own interests in mind.
      Fixed that for you.

      All these people trying to get to the top of Google with SEO are doing it wrong.

      They are not thinking about Google's interests. If you support Google's interests, they will help you.

      They are not thinking about their visitors' interests. If you support your visitors' interests, they will help you.

      The more you matter, the more they will help.

      Meanwhile, SEO depends on staying so small and ineffective that the big bad Google and your visitors can't be arsed to bother with you. Yeah, you got your wholesale bananas site to the top of the search rankings for "buy me a beer," and now you have all this traffic that goes "WTF, bananas aren't beer" - but nobody gives a crap. They just hit the back button and click something else.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        I think in 2012/13 we'll see further developments along the path of 2010/11: the proportion of people achieving success through SEO, and the proportion of businesses flourishing with search engines as their primary source of traffic, will inevitably continue to fall. It would be naive to pretend otherwise, after some of what Google has said publicly.

        More and more people are realizing that a business that depends on Google for its primary traffic can only ever be one algorithm-change away from an accident ... or even a disaster. As so many learned in 2011, some to their great cost.

        Building relationships will always be a safer long-term proposition than building backlinks.
        Not to mention easier, more fun, and much, much more profitable.

        SEO is like naming your business "1234 AAA Locksmith" to try to be listed first in the Yellow Pages. And the "traffic" you get is about the same quality, too.


        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        Social signals.

        </thread>

        But seriously, Ive seen sites that have HORRIBLE seo, and yet seemingly great content.

        Where are they in the SERPS?

        ....nowhere.
        Yep, social signals will be the next attempt, but the spammers and cheaters have already begun strangling the golden goose with that one. Even if the geniuses at Google (or the next search engine leader) come up with the perfect system, that perfect system would have to be maintained by imperfect humans.

        And, you bring up a great point. I have some sites and forums with some of the highest quality content on the planet, and yet they will never be found in Google... I don't even know (or care) if they have been indexed or not.



        Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

        Id like to see this debunked.

        Two members start identical sites.

        One with SEO and the other with "quality content"

        I know which site Ill be putting my money on!

        When it comes to getting ranked, perhaps... But not necessarily to making money. A few of my forums, I'm almost certain that they are not indexed (by any well-behaved bots, anyway...) because they are 100% private. But I make a great deal of money from them.



        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Fixed that for you.
        It's true, the "cheaters" tend to be ranked higher. What amuses me is that anyone would put so much effort into cheating for such low quality traffic? Every IM site has people raving about how great SEO is... Sure, it is slightly targeted, and great if you're a local brick & mortar, but in most niches the leads are hardly "quality" at all. Seriously, when you have to "work your numbers" and consider your percentage for every aspect of your business... Why not just go out and connect with real people and have a positive impact on their lives? It's easier, takes less time, and makes a lot more money in both the short term and long term.




        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Fixed that for you.

        All these people trying to get to the top of Google with SEO are doing it wrong.

        They are not thinking about Google's interests. If you support Google's interests, they will help you.

        They are not thinking about their visitors' interests. If you support your visitors' interests, they will help you.

        The more you matter, the more they will help.

        Meanwhile, SEO depends on staying so small and ineffective that the big bad Google and your visitors can't be arsed to bother with you. Yeah, you got your wholesale bananas site to the top of the search rankings for "buy me a beer," and now you have all this traffic that goes "WTF, bananas aren't beer" - but nobody gives a crap. They just hit the back button and click something else.

        Bananas aren't beer? You lie!

        Banana Beer


        But yeah, you could give Google what they want. Personally, I just refuse to jump through that many hoops for what little they offer in return.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          Bananas aren't beer? You lie!

          Banana Beer
          Banana beer is no longer bananas. It is beer.

          But yeah, you could give Google what they want. Personally, I just refuse to jump through that many hoops for what little they offer in return.
          It's not about giving Google what they want. It's about helping them get what they want. And what Google wants is more people using Google for anything and everything so Google can show them ads. You can't give them that, but you CAN direct your visitors to Google whenever you don't have what those visitors want.

          Which is less of a hoop than actually giving your visitors what they want, but of course that's the next hoop you should be jumping through.
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        • Profile picture of the author mhartmann
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          Not to mention easier, more fun, and much, much more profitable.

          SEO is like naming your business "1234 AAA Locksmith" to try to be listed first in the Yellow Pages. And the "traffic" you get is about the same quality, too.
          Nail --> Head. That is what this paragraph did. Great stuff.
          I was lurking but you made me log in to post this reply haha.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelSJohn
    I'm the contrarian, don't build any content on your site or focus on SEO unless you know the keywords work and you've made money with paid advertising.

    You want to play by Google's rules well guess what? They change and if you leave and die by SEO you will die by it too. Very few people made it with SEO, a lot have with paid advertising.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Ah, you are right about that. But what if I put a banana in it?
    No, that would just be beer with a banana in it. Stupid reality, ruining my perfectly good jokes! :p

    ***

    Yep, that's a great explanation of how to use SEO, if you're going to do it. Personally, I just skip it all together and go straight to the people. They are the ones with money to give me, anyway. But it could just be my niches, which are all either too competitive or too rare to be worth putting the effort into SEO. So, I am biased in that respect.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Personally, I just skip it all together and go straight to the people. They are the ones with money to give me, anyway.
      That's the same way I feel. I don't give a damn about Google's interests, because I don't rely on Google for anything. I don't want my customers to go "I want to buy something or other about this and that, what's on Google?" - I want them to go "I want what that guy is selling."

      Now, granted, there are a lot of people in the world who don't want to be that guy. You've got people in embarrassing or illegal niches, and people with families and kids they'd like to keep out of public view, and people who don't want their neighbours to know what they do, the list goes on. And if you can't be that guy, you need to find some other way to get traffic.

      But me, personally, I've always been that guy. You may not like me, but you will never forget me. So it's kind of pointless for me to ignore that and pretend I should be getting traffic some other way.
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      • Profile picture of the author raiko
        There are a few things about "Content is King" that bother me.

        First, I started out thinking that way and built a couple very high quality sites. One site had content that catered to the layman's perspective on up to a graduate level research perspective. NO other site had that level of content or research. None of the content was outsourced. I wrote it all to make sure it was extremely good. So, my site ended up at #1 over time. I was happy. Then along came this dude that basically took all my content, rewrote it, even took my web design and tweaked that, then spammed the hell out of his site with backlinks and now guess who's #1? He didn't add any new content. In fact, as an individual, he doesn't even know anything about the niche itself. He's #1 because he knew how to manipulate the search engines and, at the time, I didn't. Nor did I think it was ethical. Not to mention stealing somebody else's content etc. What exactly did content have to do with his ranking?

        I've learned my lesson over the last few years. Fantastic content is great. Until a hundred other people steal it, rewrite it, and SEO the heck out of it. Then your content isn't so good anymore.

        Second, what the heck is considered "good" content? How many posts do I have to read about people filling their sites with "quality" content and in another post they're hiring outsourcer's to write their weight loss content? I'm sorry but that is not quality content. An article telling me how to lose weight by eating less carbs or whatever is not quality content. It is ridiculously redundant content. I would guess that 99% of outsourced content is just redundant, repetitive, filler no matter how well it's written. There are plenty of PhD exercise physiologists out there writing good content that is on the leading edge of current research. Is your outsourcer at that level. No? Then your content is not "quality" relative to what else I can find on the net. Sure, there is a place for content below the academic research level but that place has probably been full for quite some time now.

        Third, I can't truly look at Google's search results and honestly say that the top of the search rankings are filled with high quality content. It's just not true. So, how do you reconcile the "content is king" or "quality is king" mantra when the evidence just doesn't support it. Sure, Google is probably trying to eliminate some of the spam that is out there but is that really improving their ranking algorithm? I haven't seen much change in Google's rankings in quite some time, if ever. Is Wikipedia's content really so good that it tends to rank 1,2 or 3 for nearly every search term they have a page for? If so, then why not just cut the net down to Wikipedia pages and save us the clutter of the rest of the sites on the net?

        Fourth, a few posters mentioned bounce rate. Bounce rate could be a good indicator of useful content that the user is interested in but it's not always true. The other day I wanted to convert one measure into another - like ounces in a cup. So, I type my idea of a good search term in to the search box. At the top of the search results is a quote that says 1 cup = 8 fluid ounces. Ok. The rest of the sites in the search rankings must suck because I didn't even try to visit them. In fact, the results page must really suck as well because I was only on it for about 2 seconds. That is one bad bounce rate. Sometimes a very efficient site would inherently have what would be considered a "bad" bounce rate. As a user I like efficiency. If I have to scour a site for some simple information then I get irritated. Is that a quality site?

        Fifth, I'm tired of the "ethical" arguments against SEO. This is a predominantly capitalist system, like it or not, and nearly every endeavor is in some way related to money. Any commercial enterprise of whatever size that ignores marketing will not be a commercial enterprise for long. As another poster mentioned, should books have blank covers? Usually the covers or packaging of products is designed to be very appealing to the eye and grab your attention so you'll buy the product. Is that unethical? Some distributors buy favorable shelf space in grocery stores or make trade offs so they can get end caps on aisles. SEO and SEM really aren't much different.

        It reminds me a little of those that rail against stock day traders and currency traders. Their argument is that those people aren't truly investing but rather are just scavengers trying to make a buck off of a quick trade. That may be true but they add efficiency and liquidity to the market. Without them it might be far more difficult to sell your stock when you want to. There are negatives and positives to day traders. There are negatives and positives to SEO. Google has always been reactionary in regards to SEO. They would never make a move unless they were forced to by the power of the SEO movement. If there were only a few SEO guys around they would be billionaires. But, since every IM'er on the planet wants to make money the SEO movement becomes a very forceful player and Google is compelled to take notice. When they do they make changes that sometimes improve their system. It adds some transparency to the system as well. Without people exploiting Google's algorithm we would probably know absolutely nothing about it. Google's certainly not going to tell us. They just say "Content is King".

        In the end everyone engaged with the internet will find out what does and doesn't work one way or another. Their results will give them the answer. Unfortunately, the results will change over time as will the answers. Ideas and beliefs regarding SEO and content will need to change over time in order to compete. If you're stuck to one idea then you're probably not going to be as successful as you could be. Relying solely on Content is King may work for some but in the end there are far more variables involved that you can ignore at your own risk.
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  • Profile picture of the author farishussain
    I have a site with 600 unique articles (copyescape passed) but getting 500-600 unv only.
    If the content is King then the link building is queen
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  • Just mix both: High Quality Content + High Quality SEO (No spammy links, guys!)
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  • Profile picture of the author ajrocks
    The people that do best with SEO are the people that balance content and SEO, to be big you need to push the rules a little, but you need quality content to keep your rankings and even more important to bring in viewers that will buy something.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Fied
    thanks for the usfull share and i love hearing everyone's thoughts.. Really some good info. and things to think about.
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  • Profile picture of the author giseo
    Those that do great content plus great SEO will rule, as it is now.
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  • Profile picture of the author owlfowl
    this should be a good news. sometimes i saw some sites, they don't have enough backlinks, but still on first page.
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    • Profile picture of the author mraffiliate
      Exactly what is great content?

      If I were a wedding photographer, would I fill my pages with text or with photos?

      If I had a site about "Jane Jones secret love letters" would I fill my pages with photos or text?
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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    It's like that great series The Wire (can't believe it took me so long to discover it). The SEO's are like drug dealers and Google is like the police. Every once in a while the police shakes up the boys selling dope on the corners (that would be most of you small time SEOs), but the big boys behind it are not even phased. They have hundreds or thousands of new players (sites) ready to take their place. Sometimes the police may get lucky and catch a big fish dope slinger (that would be JC Penny), but the guy will get a slap on the wrist sentence only because of all the corrupt government people (that would be Adwords) who are on the take. Then some times a druggie will get dropped or retire and the next day, the newest up and coming dude will be ready to take his place.

    That's the game yo! Play or get played.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      That's the same way I feel. I don't give a damn about Google's interests, because I don't rely on Google for anything. I don't want my customers to go "I want to buy something or other about this and that, what's on Google?" - I want them to go "I want what that guy is selling."

      Now, granted, there are a lot of people in the world who don't want to be that guy. You've got people in embarrassing or illegal niches, and people with families and kids they'd like to keep out of public view, and people who don't want their neighbours to know what they do, the list goes on. And if you can't be that guy, you need to find some other way to get traffic.

      But me, personally, I've always been that guy. You may not like me, but you will never forget me. So it's kind of pointless for me to ignore that and pretend I should be getting traffic some other way.

      +1,000
      This is exactly right.




      Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

      It's like that great series The Wire (can't believe it took me so long to discover it). The SEO's are like drug dealers and Google is like the police. Every once in a while the police shakes up the boys selling dope on the corners (that would be most of you small time SEOs), but the big boys behind it are not even phased. They have hundreds or thousands of new players (sites) ready to take their place. Sometimes the police may get lucky and catch a big fish dope slinger (that would be JC Penny), but the guy will get a slap on the wrist sentence only because of all the corrupt government people (that would be Adwords) who are on the take. Then some times a druggie will get dropped or retire and the next day, the newest up and coming dude will be ready to take his place.

      That's the game yo! Play or get played.

      Or, ignore the "game" and go build a business that doesn't have anything to do with the "dealers" or the so-called "police".
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  • Profile picture of the author dimitri banks
    I guess we going to have to see the hole picture all the time , all the peaces of the puzzle must be at the right place . KW content seo , links = $
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  • Profile picture of the author buckeyes09
    I'd rather have an all-around assault to attract visitors.

    I'd bet that high-quality sites will last longer than small ones made for internet marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kari1
    Content + SEO is king...
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    My big bro's Detroit Lions website...
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  • Profile picture of the author jaiganeshv
    Google does not like the following three kind of sites..

    free traffic from google search --> thin adsense websites
    free traffic from google search --> affiliate sites
    free traffic from google search --> lead capture pages

    i think every other model looks like a 'real online business' because above three models burn the visitor from search engine immediately...
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    • Profile picture of the author mraffiliate
      Originally Posted by jaiganeshv View Post

      Google does not like the following three kind of sites..

      free traffic from google search --> thin adsense websites
      free traffic from google search --> affiliate sites
      free traffic from google search --> lead capture pages

      i think every other model looks like a 'real online business' because above three models burn the visitor from search engine immediately...
      It's interesting that you say this because Google's 1st page is full of these types of sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfmanjack
    Google will have to hire a lot more people on their manual review team if they want to get rid of all SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author lucidsuccess
    If you're seo your content should king anyways.
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  • Profile picture of the author JerrickYeoh
    Content always is the king but can you make it as a king ? that a problem , that is why SEO here to assist you .

    With high competitive now, quality and unique content not that easy while everyone keep doing it . That is why SEO will take part in to help as well.

    Focus on both to get the fastest result. Ofcourse a Google Employee won't ask u to focus on SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jordan Kovats
    If Matt Cutts made a living off MFA sites, and followed his own advice, and the mantra that content is king...he would go broke.

    I am not knocking quality content. I believe that sometimes, it just needs a little help.
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  • Profile picture of the author J0hnnycl1ckz
    SEO will not die anytime in the foreseeable future. It WILL change 100x over but not die. Saying seo is "not that important" is total misinformation. A COMBINATION of proper SEO and quality content is what you need. Seriously if you can't provide a higher quality user experience then the siteS already ranking for whatever keyword you're targeting dont even try you're wasting your time!
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  • I've been really thinking lately about the folly of basing your business on Google. They're going to change things more and more. Even Market Samurai was recently effected by Google. If you're going to play the search engine game, I think it's best to go after Bing and the others, but even then, I still feel like other sources of traffic may prove superior in the long run.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Set a goal to kick Google to the curb in your business within a year. It's nice when you don't have to worry about rankings and the next big Google whim...er, I mean "update." Don't let yourself be a victim to that!

    There are many ways out of the Google trap. One that's tried and true and sustainable is to build a list in your niche of choice. Before you do that, educate yourself so you have interesting and useful things to say to your list subscribers.

    Then work hard to win your subscribers' trust. It's actually far easier to do this than to please the constantly changing whims of Google. Just treat your subscribers like you would appreciate being treated. Give them lots of good info... useful stuff. Be generous. Especially when they're new to your list. Then start making recommendations that, if they buy, will make you some money. If they trust you and you don't recommend just anything that comes along, guess what? You'll have a business and it won't rely one iota on Google.

    Take it a step farther by creating and selling your own products/services to your subscribers. Now you're self-contained. And the only time you even think about Google is when you need to search for something.

    It's about relationships. It's always been about relationships. Total reliance - even moderate reliance - on Google rankings has always been "wrong" for people serious about building sustainable businesses. A ranking is impersonal. It's spiders and robots and algorithms. It allows too many people to avoid learning how to interact to build trust and maintain business relationships with actual human beings.

    It's a way to hide.

    So kick that crap to the curb. Tell Google to go fly a kite. Get over your fear (if that's what has stopped you up to now) and spend all that time and money and efforts you're spending on higher rankings on offering real value and YOURSELF to those you want to do business with and make money helping in some way.

    Respectfully,
    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim3
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post


      So kick that crap to the curb. Tell Google to go fly a kite. Get over your fear (if that's what has stopped you up to now) and spend all that time and money and efforts you're spending on higher rankings on offering real value and YOURSELF to those you want to do business with and make money helping in some way.

      Respectfully,
      John

      Nicely said John,
      I am working hard now myself to shift away from a company I no longer have any trust in.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      Set a goal to kick Google to the curb in your business within a year. It's nice when you don't have to worry about rankings and the next big Google whim...er, I mean "update." Don't let yourself be a victim to that!

      There are many ways out of the Google trap. One that's tried and true and sustainable is to build a list in your niche of choice. Before you do that, educate yourself so you have interesting and useful things to say to your list subscribers.

      Then work hard to win your subscribers' trust. It's actually far easier to do this than to please the constantly changing whims of Google. Just treat your subscribers like you would appreciate being treated. Give them lots of good info... useful stuff. Be generous. Especially when they're new to your list. Then start making recommendations that, if they buy, will make you some money. If they trust you and you don't recommend just anything that comes along, guess what? You'll have a business and it won't rely one iota on Google.

      Take it a step farther by creating and selling your own products/services to your subscribers. Now you're self-contained. And the only time you even think about Google is when you need to search for something.

      It's about relationships. It's always been about relationships. Total reliance - even moderate reliance - on Google rankings has always been "wrong" for people serious about building sustainable businesses. A ranking is impersonal. It's spiders and robots and algorithms. It allows too many people to avoid learning how to interact to build trust and maintain business relationships with actual human beings.

      It's a way to hide.

      So kick that crap to the curb. Tell Google to go fly a kite. Get over your fear (if that's what has stopped you up to now) and spend all that time and money and efforts you're spending on higher rankings on offering real value and YOURSELF to those you want to do business with and make money helping in some way.

      Respectfully,
      John

      +1 Million.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        +1 Million.
        Sorry, you can only +1.

        Any more than that is considered unethical seo
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim3
    Originally Posted by JulioGarabot View Post


    Vital, Useful, Relevant, High Quality content that matches the search query is king, only when your site is subjected to manual scrutiny.

    I believe good SEO and relevant content good or bad will rank a site high until such time it is manually rated, when all your SEO efforts may go out of the window if your content is crap.

    I also believe G throws out lots of Red Herrings, and deliberately moves pages up and down at random to prevent any tracking of their activities.

    my 2c
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Gram
    You can have the best relationships and raving fans in the world, but fact of the matter is, many people can (and will) use Google to get to your website and if you are not showing up on the first page, your competitors are...especially the ones who are smart and optimize for your business name (or via Adwords).

    Yes, relationships are the key but you never want to NOT be trying to get 1st page rankings in Google for your business/product name and key market terms. If you think you don't need Google, you are wrong because it will cost you money if you don't put some effort towards ranking (in all search engines).

    I totally agree and would never recommend setting up your business to rely on Google but at the same time, I would also never do the opposite. Don't count on Google but work like crazy to get (and keep) high rankings with them because it absolutely matters.
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by Paul Gram View Post

      You can have the best relationships and raving fans in the world, but fact of the matter is, many people can (and will) use Google to get to your website and if you are not showing up on the first page, your competitors are...especially the ones who are smart and optimize for your business name (or via Adwords).

      Yes, relationships are the key but you never want to NOT be trying to get 1st page rankings in Google for your business/product name and key market terms. If you think you don't need Google, you are wrong because it will cost you money if you don't put some effort towards ranking (in all search engines).

      I totally agree and would never recommend setting up your business to rely on Google but at the same time, I would also never do the opposite. Don't count on Google but work like crazy to get (and keep) high rankings with them because it absolutely matters.
      I make more money now than I ever did when I worked hard trying to play Google's game. It's not even close. This depends totally on the business model you choose. The notion that you "must" rely to any degree on Google to do well online is pure myth.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Gram
        Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

        I make more money now than I ever did when I worked hard trying to play Google's game. It's not even close. This depends totally on the business model you choose. The notion that you "must" rely to any degree on Google to do well online is pure myth.
        I agree with that. It's never a good idea to rely on any one Company or business model out of your control, no doubt. What I am trying to point out that not relying on Google doesn't mean that people should not be actively trying to get great rankings on Google because if they don't, they are most likely costing themselves money directly and/or indirectly.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

        I make more money now than I ever did when I worked hard trying to play Google's game. It's not even close. This depends totally on the business model you choose. The notion that you "must" rely to any degree on Google to do well online is pure myth.
        Amen to that. Five years ago Google was 80% of my traffic. Today it's less than 4% and I haven't even gotten into creating apps for each of my websites yet, nor have I gotten a handle yet on mobile advertising, but I'm getting there.

        Get your product listed on one or two decent CPA networks and your head will spin by the amount of traffic you'll be getting. Become a guest on a radio program for 15 minutes, get to plug your domain name a few times, and you'll be getting some serious boost in sales. Build some JV relationships with some power affiliates in your niche and WHAM BAM!!!! you can set up traffic streams that will last for years.

        Someone posted that "content is king" and "SEO is king" are too broad as statements on their own and I totally agree with that. I guarantee if you ask 100 SEO "experts" what they thing SEO is, you'll get 100 very different answers. Ask 100 marketers what they think quality content is, you'll get different answers as well because it depends on the context, something that this thread is missing in some people's post (but that happens a lot in forum yes?).

        In any event, I get mixed information from Google's own people at IT conferences. Matt Cutts will say one thing, then one of their own algo engineers will say to me, "No, I don't think he would say that because this is how we look at content...". WHAAAATTT??? Are you kidding me? Where's my shot glass?

        So I just go back continuing what I do, which is testing all this sh*t out myself. <Pops bottle of Merlot wide open>.

        RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by Paul Gram View Post

      You can have the best relationships and raving fans in the world, but fact of the matter is, many people can (and will) use Google to get to your website and if you are not showing up on the first page, your competitors are...especially the ones who are smart and optimize for your business name (or via Adwords).

      Yes, relationships are the key but you never want to NOT be trying to get 1st page rankings in Google for your business/product name and key market terms. If you think you don't need Google, you are wrong because it will cost you money if you don't put some effort towards ranking (in all search engines).

      I totally agree and would never recommend setting up your business to rely on Google but at the same time, I would also never do the opposite. Don't count on Google but work like crazy to get (and keep) high rankings with them because it absolutely matters.

      I am fairly certain that I get exactly 0 traffic from the search engines to most of my sites, and quite frankly the quality of traffic from Google may be "targeted" but it is generally so poor that I have to "build the relationship" from scratch. Then they get sticker-shock at my prices.

      No, I absolutely do the opposite... Google traffic = too much work for too little pay. I never want any of that mess again!
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    I still haven't comprehended the full meaning of the phrase, "content is king". I create new content everyday, and distribute them to all the major channels. But still, i feel like something is missing.
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  • Profile picture of the author nohypo
    good debeat, I got buyer directly not from google.
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  • Profile picture of the author mywebwork
    I thought that it was amusing to read through this thread and then see today's Dilbert comic.

    Dilbert.com - The Official Dilbert Website with Scott Adams' color strips, Dilbert animation, mashups and more!

    Almost made me suspect that Scott Adams reads the Warrior Forum!

    Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author Hustle
    Content is king, this is damn right!

    But Google's employees have been spreading false information about SEO and this statement is no exception.
    Of course you can rank with content only, but that would take 20 years or so. LOL.

    Link baits were important, are important and will remain important, PERIOD!
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulyC
    I'm glad you posted this as I couldn't agree more. When starting out I focused so much on SEO according to Google, now I could care less but focus solely on high-quality content. It's all about knowing how to get yourself out there without the need for Google, such as through forums, JV's, affiliates, etc.

    It worries me to have to count on the search engines to tell people I exist, I'd rather get out there and let people know about me directly through methods that won't die some day.
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulyC
    It's hard to be constantly bothered by the worries that Google is going to yet again make another change and wipe out any hard SEO work we do. I completely agree plain and simple - content is king. Now, you need to know how to get your work in front of people's eyes, but that is completely doable without having to be a backlink-building machine 24/7.

    Finding other sources of traffic without the big G is actually much easier, and more rewarding, than counting on something you have zero control over.
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    • Profile picture of the author lukedidit
      Originally Posted by PaulyC View Post

      It's hard to be constantly bothered by the worries that Google is going to yet again make another change and wipe out any hard SEO work we do. I completely agree plain and simple - content is king. Now, you need to know how to get your work in front of people's eyes, but that is completely doable without having to be a backlink-building machine 24/7.

      Finding other sources of traffic without the big G is actually much easier, and more rewarding, than counting on something you have zero control over.
      Can you give some examples then (Sincere question)?

      Frame this for someone who does not have a list etc already.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Without content you have,

    ZERO:

    Social signals. <-- Some post's on here say, required for ranking.

    Consumer engagement. <-- Either a positive or negative effect on bounce rates. SEO Factor.

    Customer experience. <-- Either encourages or discourages social sharing.

    Reason for any "real" back linking. <-- Again required for ranking as mentioned by some peeps.


    The list goes on, and while some of you may think I'm out of my head or even stupid, (I don't care either way) content is the basis and foundation of SEO, everything else is just a derivative.
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  • Profile picture of the author irfanmeo
    yes content is kind but it is nothing without SEO techniques and i should say writing quality content is also a SEO technique
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  • Profile picture of the author imfusa
    You can have unique content updated daily, but if you don't do seo would be worthless.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    This thread is become more LOLERSKATES by the minute!
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  • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
    "Which meant he had a website on the internet that effectively said "Nanny nanny boo boo, you can't come here, PTHBBTT."
    This is hilarious nice one CDarkLock

    Which is precisely why SEO sucks.
    So you are basically saying that SEO sucks because it works ?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    This is going pear shaped, Im outta here.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by madhusundar View Post

      Search Engine Optimization, also known as SEO is a subject which gets talked about to death all over the web. There's a fairly large group of people who believe that SEO is the be-all and end-all to anything on the web.
      They believe that without it, you are nothing and with it, you are everything. Search engines are essential for getting your site noticed; however, it is a huge challenge to optimize your site when you don't have the resources or tools necessary.
      On-site optimization takes into account the factors on your website that you have direct control over, such as site structure, internal linking, crawlability, technical concerns, content, and quality. Determining if your on-site factors are fully optimized can be difficult, but with these tools, the complexity of the job greatly reduces.
      I3ITpeople with its professional group not only can make online sites using the most advanced technological innovation but also will place your online sites within the top 10 location in the the the search engines.We follow the W3C objectives strictly and use only soothing Hat methods to get more guests to your website.
      Hey, that's a great copy &paste job. Thank you for your submission.

      Hey, that's a great copy & paste job. Thank you for your submission.

      :rolleyes:



      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      You're making an assumption that my SEO strategies are based on writing to suit algorithms. You're wrong dude

      I use SEO to position my sites, then I use high quality content to keep my visitors there, once they arrive.

      So I guess we could argue the point all day long, but in reality, its a combination of both. Its chicken and egg stuff.

      By the way, get a haircut.

      I like eggs for breakfast and chicken for lunch. Thus, the egg comes first in my Universe. That being said, I recently cut my hair for the first time in more than 25 years, so I cannot begrudge the Dark Locks for his.

      Also, it's posts like this that make me want to enter a niche in which SEO would be useful, just so that I could find a project to work with you on.



      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      This is going pear shaped, Im outta here.

      lmao, that's a new one for me.

      At this point I would like to point once again that I am biased against SEO because it is completely useless to me in the niches that I prefer.

      In addition, I believe there is a mystique about it that is just not accurate, and many other people are investing a lot of time, effort, and money into what will result in less than minimum wage for them.

      BUT, I have also said before, and I will say it again, that I am well aware SEO has been golden for many people, and it will continue to be. Likewise, I have often contemplated going into a niche in which SEO would be useful just because Johnny is "that guy" for me when it comes to SEO knowledge, and I would love to work with him.


      So take my opinions worth a grain of salt whenever I speak against something like this. They are based on my own experiences, which do not necessarily reflect your own.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        Likewise, I have often contemplated going into a niche in which SEO would be useful just because Johnny is "that guy" for me when it comes to SEO knowledge, and I would love to work with him.
        Anytime Mike, thanks for the kind words

        Im beginning to favour both sides of the argument. I think Caliban has raised some good points, and while I am "pro SEO" I can understand and appreciate the other points of view raised here as well.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

          while I am "pro SEO" I can understand and appreciate the other points of view raised here as well.
          The issue for me revolves around one fundamental reality.

          A search engine is not made for you to get your stuff in front of people.

          It is made for people who can't find what they want to get help finding it.

          Now, I think we can all agree that no matter what kind of site we are building, we want to be the site people actually want.

          If the search engine is accurately determining that, we don't have to do anything. We can just do our thing and the search engines will accurately and fairly present our quality content to the user. And I think a lot of "quality content" advocates are taking this sort of pie-in-the-sky worldview that search engines are always right and everything is fine.

          But I think we can also all agree that the search engines are not accurate. That to some degree, each and every search engine will deliver the wrong results - in many cases, so wrong that you will be unable to find what you want at all.

          The question from where I sit is what we are supposed to do about that.

          Let's restate it a little, so you can see more clearly why I have the perspective I have:

          The person you would like to come to your site is using a broken tool to find it.

          Now, I'm aware that this is someone you'd like to have on your site. And I'm aware that this is clearly a problem which needs a solution.

          But SEO amounts to:

          The customer is using a tool which consistently and reliably sends them to the wrong site. I want the customer to be sent to my site, which is the right site. Therefore, I must make my site into the wrong site.


          Wait, what?

          Now you're not the right site anymore, doofus! Your solution to the problem actually makes things worse. You've replaced the problem of "search engines don't rank my site high enough" with "human beings don't like my site anymore."

          Now, a lot of people (I'm looking at you, Johnny) will handwave this and say "but I'll go back and fix it, so it's okay." Again, go back and fix it?


          It didn't need to be fixed before.

          The problem here is not that your site doesn't rank highly enough in the search engines. It is that people do not know about your site. Ranking in the search engines is only one way to do that, and if ranking in the search engines isn't working, banging your head against the SEO wall to make it work is not always the answer.

          There is a tiny little subset of sites that actually do need to use SEO, and they are generally sites which have no brand recognition, tremendous competition, low differentiation, and near-zero repeat business.

          Like, say, if you sell a particular brand of yoga mats. Nobody gives a crap. They are going to say "where can I get this brand of yoga mat?" and look it up and buy one. They are not going to bookmark your site and send it to all their friends and say "I buy my yoga mats at Johnny Ramone's House Of Yoga That Is Totally Not Gay." When they need another yoga mat, they are just going to go type "yoga mats" in Google.

          If that's the business you want to be in, then yeah, SEO is an answer. But it's not the answer. Other answers include not selling the same crap everybody else does, developing brand recognition, and using some other method of getting your traffic.

          And Google is rather of the opinion that SEO is not the answer, because it borks up the search results for everyone else. So am I, because I don't get my traffic from search engines. I use search engines to find what I want. So my interests don't lie in "make people come to my site," they lie in "stop crapping up my search results with your affiliate bull****."
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  • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
    I agree with you. That is exactly what he should do.

    hmm it seems we have sorta gotten off the topic here of SEO. So moving back if anyone wants really good information about if it still works there are a ton of resources online. Not to mention here on the Warriorforum. One site I really like is theseopub.com. Not affiliated with him in any way, but I feel that he has very good information about SEO
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  • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
    "Also, are you telling me a site full of amazing unique content is going to do any good without backlinks and social signals and other basic SEO?"
    Exactly unless you have a big list of article providers who are your friends and a few high up facebook devs how do you expect to get out the word about your website without Google?

    For an established person who has thousands in his/her list. It is possible to not rely as much as Google, but honestly why would you to do that and leave money on the table from an effective method of gaining more subscribers? It would be like having a friend who tells you that they can promote your business and get you so much more exposure, but you say to them, I don't need you anymore I have enough promotion.

    Google is that friend and once a person realizes they are not gaming the system, but instead are choosing exactly where they want to rank. They have incredible success in SEO. Let Google be your friend instead of putting it down as an old and tired method.

    You can choose where you want to rank. That is the biggest realization I ever had that helped me in becoming very good at search engine optimization. Decide how much hard work you are willing to put in, or money you are willing to spend to achieve position #1 in Google. Then have a plan and do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew NY
    Complete bull. There's no way an automated system will ever be able to dictate how well content is helping a human being. There are many different factors. Mix content with backlinks. Enough said.

    Google says this OBVIOUSLY because they don't want to come out and admit that you can just backlink the hell out of sites filled with garbage. Why would they ever want us to NOT put up good content?
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    • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
      Originally Posted by Matthew NY View Post

      Complete bull. There's no way an automated system will ever be able to dictate how well content is helping a human being. There are many different factors. Mix content with backlinks. Enough said.

      Google says this OBVIOUSLY because they don't want to come out and admit that you can just backlink the hell out of sites filled with garbage. Why would they ever want us to NOT put up good content?
      100% TRUE! I even argue with people that an automated system can't tell what content is related. I hear people say all the time you need to make sure all of your backlinks come from High PR websites that relate to your niche.

      First off yes high PR links are great but you also need do-follow, no-follow, PR 0, etc. To look natural. I have read thousands of pages of information and have had many years of SEO experience and I have never found that unrelated websites affected my webpages from ranking. (In terms of where my links came from of course) All Google see's is what your anchor text says.

      What if you had a very obscure niche how would you find enough backlinks related to that? Just create links and don't worry about how related they are. I mean how do you judge something like that when there are thousands of words, synonyms and all that. Some health forum, may only be health related and have nothing to do with weight loss. Can an automated system really tell that I think not!

      As I mentioned earlier Google ( originally backrub) was created as a way to put the best and related content at page one based on backlinks or links pointing back to the webpage.

      Let me be very clear you rank based on your webpages not your website. And another thing if you are creating anchor texts for your backlinks that is your main keyword you are trying to rank for only 50% of the time you are making a very major backlink mistake.

      I have a number I follow based on how many links I create around a main keyword and how many I create related. It has never failed me and other marketers I know.

      Finally focus one keyword for each page, not 10 on one page or you will never rank. I hope this helps someone

      "No-one is arguing against basic SEO. Indeed, amazing unique content is basic SEO."
      Exactly, I couldn't agree more. I believe that quality content is not only good for your visitors but also as a basic start to good SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brenden Clerget
    Originally Posted by JulioGarabot View Post

    Yeah, let's all change our page titles to irrelevant words and have great content, I bet we don't rank.

    Just don't believe it. Please, for your own good.
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    • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
      Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget View Post

      Yeah, let's all change our page titles to irrelevant words and have great content, I bet we don't rank.

      Just don't believe it. Please, for your own good.
      Thank you so much for helping speak sense I don't want someone to read this thread and honestly think that what you said would actually work and wasn't sarcasm.

      While we are at it, lets take it one step forward and not use canonical Urls too. Lets make our web pages example.com/12_567_July LOL

      Even Matt Cutts as you can see has relevant keywords in his URL's. Here is an example "http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-advice-url-canonicalization]SEO advice: url canonicalization"
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  • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
    I just went up to your last post Johnny with the monster eating pop corn and I finally got it lol I am quite slow tonight it seems. I think good points have been brought up by both sides too. Honestly I just do what works. I don't feel that SEO is for everyone, just like PPC isn't
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  • Profile picture of the author mrinternational
    If you do enough testing and tweeking measuring your results A/B and control eventually over the years you will get really close to knowing the formula, not exactly the same one but close enough to rank your sites, that is why google has to send so many mixed signals and smoke screens, to keep people guessing and changing what they where already doing, although I doubt that anyone who does SEO is going to change anything until they see their sites moving around in the SERPs
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    • Profile picture of the author dsbusiness23
      Originally Posted by mrinternational View Post

      If you do enough testing and tweeking measuring your results A/B and control eventually over the years you will get really close to knowing the formula, not exactly the same one but close enough to rank your sites, that is why google has to send so many mixed signals and smoke screens, to keep people guessing and changing what they where already doing, although I doubt that anyone who does SEO is going to change anything until they see their sites moving around in the SERPs
      I know I for one will not! I understand that as you have posted here Google doesn't like SEO folks who understand how their flawed (as some would call it) system.

      As I said before though the more people believe SEO is dead the easier it gets for those who do understand it. Again SEO is only one aspect of internet marketing. Not every method works for every marketer. Some are great at PPC, SEO, CPA, Affiliate marketing, offline marketing, and the list goes on and on.
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  • Profile picture of the author K1
    I think google is full of it, content is king if you have good content. I use to be able to rank websites without a couple of words.
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  • Profile picture of the author raheelmushtaq
    i know some people who have high quality content but they still lack in ranking well.. i know some SEO who are pro but they don't have good content so they are lacking as well its just a balance that makes a website perfect to rank well..
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  • Profile picture of the author Green Diamond
    It may be correct but SEO is important also.

    What Google looks for is the content itself & he find the content from what you have done in SEO.

    So they are related & having both of them in one place is the best option,
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