Why do people think they own you for $7?

11 years ago

I know this is just a rant, but maybe it would help to keep in mind that the people who yell the loudest for refunds have probably gotten burned and scammed before. They've dealt with sellers who ignore their emails and get little to no support when they hit a wall. And so if they feel it's happening again, they immediately get defensive. There is always a reason behind a person's behavior. Not to justify it, just that maybe it would do some good to see things from their side, even if you think they're just being utter bunholes unworthy of attention.
I think you have to have a certain kind of personality and a lot of patience to deal in customer service. Otherwise you get jaded and burned out pretty quick. On the other hand, like you said, sellers build their reputations by adding value and sticking to their word. Having a good reputation and being popular helps to minimize people's distrust, but even then there is always someone who will make a lot of noise when things don't go their way.

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cybria

I know this is just a rant, but maybe it would help to keep in mind that the people who yell the loudest for refunds have probably gotten burned and scammed before. They've dealt with sellers who ignore their emails and get little to no support when they hit a wall. And so if they feel it's happening again, they immediately get defensive. There is always a reason behind a person's behavior. Not to justify it, just that maybe it would do some good to see things from their side, even if you think they're just being utter bunholes unworthy of attention.
I think you have to have a certain kind of personality and a lot of patience to deal in customer service. Otherwise you get jaded and burned out pretty quick. On the other hand, like you said, sellers build their reputations by adding value and sticking to their word. Having a good reputation and being popular helps to minimize people's distrust, but even then there is always someone who will make a lot of noise when things don't go their way.

Absolutely. We've all been scammed, even myself and I can see your point, but honestly, what are the chances that a member that's been around for a few years, with a couple thousand post, a thousand thanks, and threads 5-10 pages long is going to scam you over $7?

Especially when I state a refund policy. I guess maybe I should be clear in the thread sometimes it will take up to 72 hours or something. Is that a fair compromise?

Either way, I appreciate your point of view, a lot. So thank you.

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AdwordsMogul

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cybria

I know this is just a rant, but maybe it would help to keep in mind that the people who yell the loudest for refunds have probably gotten burned and scammed before.

...

Maybe you're right, I feel that the people who act this way are the laziest, greediest, and least likely to take action.

There are so many people who send emails that wouldn't be necessary if:

1) They spent 5 minutes on Google
2) Read the instructions
3) Used their common sense.

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JasonParker

11 years ago

Well I'd say you have the right idea now that you're blacklisting people who think they can treat you like garbage.

But if you think about it... you're always going to have to put up with jerks in life unless you decide to be a hermit living off worms in the woods or something

Don't sweat it.

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fluffythewondercat

11 years ago

Why do you sell yourself so cheaply?

If you're going to have customer service issues up the wazoo, you ought to charge more.

fLufF
--

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dpwilliams

11 years ago

Maybe it's worth it to not even offer a refund policy? Who knows.

At the end of the day, it really makes me want to quit WSOs, public launches, and the whole spiel all together and focus on expanding my offline client base instead of helping people to get to where I'm at in my business for literal pennies on the dollar compared to the time, sweat, tears, stress and pain they'd go through learning it on their own.

Hello Brenden,

I think the most important part of this story is your reaction to it. I don't know you but from what you posted you make a lot of sales...and you sound like you really care about the quality of your products...

With that being said...don't let the negatives of few dictate or make you rethink how you do business.

Try to put this behind you and focus on the folks that treat you well and buy your products...

I once had a very close friend that really hurt my feelings...I was devastated. It took me a really long time to get over it...I cried...I stewed...I would think up conversations in my head...things I would say to her if I ever had the chance...

Then someone very wise said to me...

Deb...you spend all your energy suffering about this...that you have nothing left for the people that care about you...

You are cheating the ones that do care by focusing all your energy on the one that doesn't...

I really hope that helps you...it helped me...

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat

Why do you sell yourself so cheaply?

If you're going to have customer service issues up the wazoo, you ought to charge more.

fLufF
--

If you charge more in this marketplace, you won't make sales.

That's like saying: Well if the car makers are going out of business - then clearly they should be upping their prices by 40% so they make a profit that doesn't require a bailout, but then nobody buys cars.

I understand what you're saying. But there aren't customer service issues up the wazoo, it's the occasional self righteous $7-$27 buyer that runs himself up your youknowwhat and really thinks he has the right to just run your life for that amount of money.

That's my take on it, at least. I can appreciate your position, though.

Originally Posted by JasonParker

Well I'd say you have the right idea now that you're blacklisting people who think they can treat you like garbage.

But if you think about it... you're always going to have to put up with jerks in life unless you decide to be a hermit living off worms in the woods or something

Don't sweat it.

Jason, thanks a lot for the support! I appreciate hearing it from other veterans.

Originally Posted by dpwilliams

Hello Brenden,

I think the most important part of this story is your reaction to it. I don't know you but from what you posted you make a lot of sales...and you sound like you really care about the quality of your products...

With that being said...don't let the negatives of few dictate or make you rethink how you do business.

Try to put this behind you and focus on the folks that treat you well and buy your products...

I once had a very close friend that really hurt my feelings...I was devastated. It took me a really long time to get over it...I cried...I stewed...I would think up conversations in my head...things I would say to her if I ever had the chance...

Then someone very wise said to me...

Deb...you spend all your energy suffering about this...that you have nothing left for the people that care about you...

You are cheating the ones that do care by focusing all your energy on the one that doesn't...

I really hope that helps you...it helped me...

I was a business/marketing/computer science major. Business focus was PR and marketing focus was psychological marketing with a emphasis on human interaction.

I totally understand that and thus is why even if somebody treats me like trash, I treat them nicely. Sometimes it's more gratifying to come back with a "Have a WONDERFUL day!!" than "WTF is your problem mate", just simply because they don't expect it.

I always treat everybody with respect regardless of how bitter, mean, nasty, etc you are to me. I just draw a line when you call me threatening me and my family on the phone, then I get a bit nasty back. Other than that, it's hard to get me riled up.

So yes, I agree!

Originally Posted by WillR

I do not agree with your attitude that things should be different whether the product cost $7 or $97. A customer is a customer and should be treated as such. To hear you say "over such a piddly amount" would probably annoy me if I were one of your customers. It's not how I would be looking at things.

The fact is those little $7's are quite important to YOU otherwise you wouldn't be selling the product in the first place... so why then is that same $7 not suppose to be as important to the customer who actually worked hard to earn that money and pay it to you?

If I asked for a refund and had not heard anything back from you in 48 hours, whether it be for a $7 product or a $497, I would also send another follow up email. As you said yourself... "we make so many sales that one or two refunds get lost in the jumble and they get missed by support staff". So you admit that they do get lost and missed so doesn't it make sense someone would follow it up with you?

I don't see the problem here. If you are making so many sales you can't keep up with the support/refund requests then hire more support staff or increase your prices. I make 1000's of sales also and I can confidently say I have never missed a refund request and no one has had to wait longer than 48 hours for one... why should they have to, really?

Will, it's the principle. Others have pointed it out as well.

Nothing in my thread says I can't keep up with support or refund requests. I assume that you have a very big emphasis on taking care of your customers and treating your customers equally and well, just from your response.

However, I never once said that I value a $7 customer less than a $497 customer, because many of my $7 customers become $997 coaching students at some point. However:

If you're going to ask for a refund an hour after my launch and hit me with 5 emails in the next 24 hours while my support team is handling launch things, it's just unreasonable, especially for $7. It's like when you go to refund something at Best Buy that cost $19.99 and they say it will go back on your debit card.

48 hours rolls around and it hasn't. You watched them reverse the transaction, and know it will simply be another day or so, however, some people will STILL call or go back into the store to make sure, only to waste their time, the business' time, because they think that some how, some why, best buy is trying to screw them out of $19.99.

Best Buy didn't get rich by screwing people out of money, and we don't either.

Not arguing with you at all either, just making sure that my stance is correctly identified. I understand everything that you said and wholeheartedly agree with it, but for people to DEMAND that within just minutes of me receiving a request that I handle it personally and that they don't have to wait in line like everybody else and let my support team handle it, is absolutely absurd.

That's what I was saying. Now, obviously, if I had $497 products making the same amount of sales, I could justify spending more on support staff, however, when you're selling a $7-$17 frontend with $XX backend, to hire 15 VA's can become quite costly and just isn't a way to maximize my profits. If at the end of the day, that pisses off a few people that they have to wait an extra 12 hours for a refund, I guess that's just tough luck for them.

Out of 1,200 sales on one of my last WSOs, I had 11 refunds, and 1 IRATE customer. All the refunds were handled within hours of getting the request. The irate customer? He kept sending me emails after he got his refund saying he can't believe I'm selling what I'm selling because he had been in the business for 15 years and already knew all of it and anybody that had done it before would know that everything in my guides was common sense for a veteran. He really, honestly, thought he had the right to attack me, even though he got his refund.

I guess sometimes, you can't please everybody, no matter how hard you try.

Originally Posted by TBInternetMarketing

Yea I've seen a few people starting to do this. Crazy that they start moaning when they don't hear from you within 24 hours. My favourite is when its the weekend and they complain because they didnt get an answer from you on a Sunday! I mean come on. It's the weekend!

I have no problem giving refunds at all, but people can't expect you to be chained to your email at all times.

This is my main point, and I guess what I longwindedly just tried to respond to Will with.

I've got a life, friends, family, obligations, and I work my 8-8 like everybody else (I guess not everybody works 8-8, but yknow), much like some of my support people. I don't work Sundays, I work part of Saturdays.

I guess I just need to make it more clear that we're not robots...

Thanks to those with great criticisms thus far, I'll take them to heart, and those with support, thanks to you as well!

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Alan Petersen

11 years ago

You can set the expectations in your refund policy, "please allow up to 72 hours for processing your refund request". Put in your automated email with your help desk so when they submit a ticket, they'll get the message.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

My main gripe is that why for $7, $9, even $17 or $27 do people think that they absolutely own your soul and can talk to you however they want?

Literally, you are going to spend that much in gas, TODAY, I promise you.

I do not agree with your attitude that things should be different whether the product cost $7 or $97. A customer is a customer and should be treated as such. To hear you say "over such a piddly amount" would probably annoy me if I were one of your customers. It's not how I would be looking at things.

The fact is those little $7's are quite important to YOU otherwise you wouldn't be selling the product in the first place... so why then is that same $7 not suppose to be as important to the customer who actually worked hard to earn that money and pay it to you?

If I asked for a refund and had not heard anything back from you in 48 hours, whether it be for a $7 product or a $497, I would also send another follow up email. As you said yourself... "we make so many sales that one or two refunds get lost in the jumble and they get missed by support staff". So you admit that they do get lost and missed so doesn't it make sense someone would follow it up with you?

I don't see the problem here. If you are making so many sales you can't keep up with the support/refund requests then hire more support staff or increase your prices. I make 1000's of sales also and I can confidently say I have never missed a refund request and no one has had to wait longer than 48 hours for one... why should they have to, really?

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Zeus66

11 years ago

I'm with Will on this one. The price is irrelevant. After all, you decided that. The customer didn't have anything to do with how much you decided to charge them. They have as much right to expect a prompt reply for a $7 transaction as a $700 one.

In my opinion.

John

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sureshots

11 years ago

Interesting outlook! It's not that people think they own you is just that most people want their problem solved after spending any money. Another thing I find is companies that offer refunds typically have the most success and also typically have the most returning customers! Personally I don't like doing business with companies or people that don't offer refunds. One thing I learned about WSO's is that the owner can delete posts from unsatisfied customers anytime they want, this has changed my view on WSO's altogether.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

One thing I learned about WSO's is that the owner can delete posts from unsatisfied customers anytime they want, this has changed my view on WSO's altogether.

Actually, that's not true. Only a mod can delete posts from a persons WSO and those negative posts will only be removed if they are untrue, posted by someone who has not actually bought the product or they are personally attacking the WSO owner or an unrelated product.

If you or anyone else has an issue with a WSO then you are well within your rights to post your negative feedback in the WSO thread and it won't be deleted provided it is factual and only talks about the product you have purchased. A WSO owner may ask for a negative post to be removed but the mods will not do it unless it is breaking one of those rules.

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REHughes

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

Actually, that's not true. Only a mod can delete posts from a persons WSO and those negative posts will only be removed if they are untrue, posted by someone who has not actually bought the product or they are personally attacking the WSO owner or an unrelated product.

If you or anyone else has an issue with a WSO then you are well within your rights to post your negative feedback in the WSO thread and it won't be deleted provided it is factual and only talks about the product you have purchased. A WSO owner may ask for a negative post to be removed but the mods will not do it unless it is breaking one of those rules.

Will,
Thanks for pointing this out yet again. I don't know at the posts I see on the WSO threads, whether they be for or against the product - or the owner, for that matter - that are posted by someone who has no intimate knowledge of the product - as in HAS BOUGHT IT and/or HAS TRIED IT!

That is the whole key there, you MUST have bought the product, or either have a review copy.

Otherwise, "you're not invited as a guest speaker."
I personally get tired of having to scroll through 3 pages of so called testimonials from those who are just 'talking" when trying to get an honest review of something I might otherwise be interested in.

Thanks again for this point.

Robert

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sureshots

11 years ago

Not true it's happened to me before and I provided proof. If it hasn't happened to you I don't think you're in the position to challenge me on this one!

Originally Posted by WillR

Actually, that's not true. Only a mod can delete posts from a persons WSO and those negative posts will only be removed if they are untrue, posted by someone who has not actually bought the product or they are personally attacking the WSO owner or an unrelated product.

If you or anyone else has an issue with a WSO then you are well within your rights to post your negative feedback in the WSO thread and it won't be deleted provided it is factual and only talks about the product you have purchased. A WSO owner may ask for a negative post to be removed but the mods will not do it unless it is breaking one of those rules.

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Ben Gordon

11 years ago

I completely agree with you. I had a few customers that sent me refund requests after 1 hour of purchase (or less) and then plumbed me with 10 emails in the next two days with regards to me ignoring his refund request.

I had one customer in particular...he sent me a refund request Saturday morning. I clearly state on my website that I do not work on weekends and tell them our work hours as well as our average turnaround to answering emails, which is up to 3 business days.

Obviously he ignored that and sent me 16 emails throughout the 48 hours of the weekend. Then, when my customer support refunded his purchase, he complained to PayPal about my late response, lack of support, etc. I was so frustrated with this customer and the time I wasted on him that I swear I was about to hire a lawyer just to take him down. But crap happens. It's life. You're going to get customers like that, and you can't dodge it. Just deal with it and explain it to them, hopefully one in 5 are understandable people.

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tim_buchalka

11 years ago

It's interesting isn't it, people can spend so much time on things that cost so little.

Its much the same with iphone games if you think about. Heck I've done it. Spent a while deciding over spending $1.99 on a game! And then went down and spent $5 on a coffee

I suggest you treat everyone nicely, refund quickly and say you are sorry it did not meet your expectations. I have made follow up sales from people who were quite nasty and then came back at a later time to buy another product. Maybe they were just having a bad day or were going through a personal crisis at the time.

In any event just refund, be nice and move on. No stress then.

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Randall Magwood

11 years ago

I understand where you're coming from about how people think they own you after making a purchase, and then wants a refund and continually harrases you. You should maybe consider running part of your online business from your phone. That way you can stay on top of things on the go and respond to any customer requests as soon as they enter into your inbox.

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studlee46

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I do not agree with your attitude that things should be different whether the product cost $7 or $97. A customer is a customer and should be treated as such. To hear you say "over such a piddly amount" would probably annoy me if I were one of your customers. It's not how I would be looking at things.

The fact is those little $7's are quite important to YOU otherwise you wouldn't be selling the product in the first place... so why then is that same $7 not suppose to be as important to the customer who actually worked hard to earn that money and pay it to you?

If I asked for a refund and had not heard anything back from you in 48 hours, whether it be for a $7 product or a $497, I would also send another follow up email. As you said yourself... "we make so many sales that one or two refunds get lost in the jumble and they get missed by support staff". So you admit that they do get lost and missed so doesn't it make sense someone would follow it up with you?

I don't see the problem here. If you are making so many sales you can't keep up with the support/refund requests then hire more support staff or increase your prices. I make 1000's of sales also and I can confidently say I have never missed a refund request and no one has had to wait longer than 48 hours for one... why should they have to, really?

While I agree that you should treat all customers the same, price does matter. You're really going to send someone 10 emails in a day over 7 bucks? No. Your time is much better spent doing something more productive. Now if the sales price was $500 then yes, your time is better spent chasing 5 bills. Would you expect someone to have a full support system with someone on staff full time responding to requests like these with a seller who sells a product at the $7 price point? How about someone selling a $500 product?

I'm all for customer service but you can't EXPECT to get high level support from a $7 purchase.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR

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WillR 11 years ago

Originally Posted by studlee46

I'm all for customer service but you can't EXPECT to get high level support from a $7 purchase.

I guess it depends who you purchase from...
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sshusain 11 years ago

Basically these people are scammed in the past, and they think they are going to scam againm that's why they are yelling on you. That's my idea.

Shahid
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sts2k

11 years ago

One thing I have learned over the years of working with clients is that, the higher the project/contract is , the lower they hassle you. The most hassles I have gotten was when I first started and offered ridiculously low prices for my services.

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AndrewCavanagh 11 years ago

As has already been said in other words usually the less people pay the lower the quality of customer you get (and I don't mean that across the board...obviously you'll have some wonderful customers at the $7 level...there's just a higher percentage of complainers and trouble makers at the lower price point).

As you increase your prices the customers tend to become more polite and respect your time and your business more.

If you want a laugh go to some of those sites with free movies and TV shows and look at how much people complain about the quality of movies, about a new movie not being posted...about anything...and they're not paying a cent!

Free customers are often the worst of all.

The lesson you can take from this is to have enough confidence in your products and services to charge a reasonable amount for them.

And make them truly worth what you charge and follow up with exceptional service.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh
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Rus Sells

11 years ago

The mark of some one who's been in bushiness long enough to figure this out.

I agree with most of what every one said here, and I also think that email bombing some one 10 times in a day over a $7 refund is a bit obsessive. Heck what if they live in a 12 hour time zone difference? It wouldn't matter how many times during their day they email you, you're asleep!

Originally Posted by sts2k

One thing I have learned over the years of working with clients is that, the higher the project/contract is , the lower they hassle you. The most hassles I have gotten was when I first started and offered ridiculously low prices for my services.

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livethedream 11 years ago

My attitude towards refunds have changed over the past 12 months. I buy a lot of WSO's if they are related to what I am focusing on and if they are not I have to have an interest in what they are selling. Problem is that some WSO's are just pure hype and don't live up to their claims, many do but some don't.

I would never ask for a refund in the past but now I have no hesitation in getting a refund if the product does not do what it says on the tin. There are some great people on this forum but there are also some crooks and of story. I once paid $197 for CPA coaching and received two emails, there was not even a product, guide, nothing so don't think you can trust everyone on this forum.

Having said that there are some amazing people with amazing products and they will go the extra mile to help you....
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elitesalesgroup

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sts2k

One thing I have learned over the years of working with clients is that, the higher the project/contract is , the lower they hassle you. The most hassles I have gotten was when I first started and offered ridiculously low prices for my services.

You couldnt more more correct. I do web design for a living. Occasionally, I'lllet a client chew me down over price.."I only need 1 page.".or something that logically could receive a discount. Then they become the biggest nightmare client ever! Nothing is ever right, they want a million revisions, I could go on.. Whereas I have had clients pay in the thousand, have all their stuff together to begin--know what they want in the first place--then send payment over as soon as its done...with no problems. Bottomline.. some people are just unreasonable. I think it comes with the territory. I think though $7 is not worth the hassle. Maybe you can set up a automated email just for refunds ie refunds@mywso.com. Anyone who wants a refund must send a request to this address. The automated email tells them that they HAVE BEEN HEARD --will be refunded within 24 hours. Just stress that they aren't being ignored and maybe they will lighten up a bit.

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TBInternetMarketing

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

I
Maybe it's worth it to not even offer a refund policy? Who knows.

Yea I've seen a few people starting to do this. Crazy that they start moaning when they don't hear from you within 24 hours. My favourite is when its the weekend and they complain because they didnt get an answer from you on a Sunday! I mean come on. It's the weekend!

I have no problem giving refunds at all, but people can't expect you to be chained to your email at all times.

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nohypo

11 years ago

if they need refund.i need a sound reason

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clarest 11 years ago

Try not to take their non-constructive reactions personally, it's not worth your time nor your energy. I have a subscriber list for a niche that is considered targeted yet there are always that occasional nano percent reporting my emails as scam.
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Jonathan Joseph

11 years ago

Hi Brenden,

After reading your post, I can see where you can legitimately be frustrated. Outside of WSO's, I've sold my own products online as well, so I can relate.

In my experience I've found that 99% of the time we will mostly hear from the people who are unsatisfied, have negative comments or would like a refund. We are MUCH less likely to hear from all of the people who we have helped that actually LOVE the value that we have provided them. We will sometimes barely hear from happy students/clients. Since often times they are out there implementing what they're learning.

Either way, keep your head up, as long as you're confident that you are providing high-value, ethical information, then you can rest easy.

Best,
Jonathan

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nickstrech

11 years ago

Its all part of the job if you have no relationship with the person you are selling to, they dont know you from adam then its a reaction that some people have as soon as they hit the pay now button, doubts creep in, they realise that $7 is not after all going to solve all their problems, and they move onto the next product. Its just one of those things.

Nick Terracciano

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ryanmilligan

Banned 11 years ago

This doesn't really tend to happen to me with WSO as warriors are usually pretty respectful. But with other launches I try to outsource as much customer service as I can, people can be a pain in the a**!

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Fernando Veloso

11 years ago

You telling me I cannot stress with the coffee shop waiter when that 1€ coffee is not what I was expecting?

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trytolearnmore

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

My main gripe is that why for $7, $9, even $17 or $27 do people think that they absolutely own your soul and can talk to you however they want?

I have to agree with WillR on this one. If $7-$27 isn't enough for people to talk to you however they want, then at what point is it? $100, $1000?

Just try to forget the insults and move on. Having pieholes as customers comes with the territory.

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drmani

11 years ago

I'm extremely tolerant and patient with my clients.

It doesn't matter if they spend $7 with me, or $700.

But I also have an inviolate rule. If someone is very
disrespectful to me, I fire him/her as a client.

It doesn't matter if they spent $7 with me, or $700 - or more.

Respect is a two-way street.

You can expect to get what you give in return.

That's my point of view - and I've stuck with it for 15 years.
Works just fine for me!

btw, I loved this quote from your original post:

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

Sellers don't build their reputations or last by scamming people thousands of times for $7. They do it by offering great value and having their word mean something, and people just don't seem to realize that.

Deb - @dpwilliams,

Originally Posted by dpwilliams

Deb...you spend all your energy suffering about this...that you have nothing left for the people that care about you...
You are cheating the ones that do care by focusing all your energy on the one that doesn't...

EXCELLENT point and perspective. Yet, a very human failing.

I *know* I shouldn't obsess about that single critical email
when my inbox is full of rave reviews and feedback - but time
and again, I find myself responding in detail, defending my
position, and feeling bad about that SINGLE negative comment!

As Michael Jackson's song goes,

"Why? Why? Tell 'em that it's human nature..."

All success
Dr.Mani

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bobcarlsjr

11 years ago

i don't think it's the $7 per say.. it's the principal.. no one likes the feeling of being scammed or cheated of their hard earn money...

it's like how millionaires will sue over $1... it's not the monetary amount.... it's the principal..

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by bobcarlsjr

i don't think it's the $7 per say.. it's the principal.. no one likes the feeling of being scammed or cheated of their hard earn money...

it's like how millionaires will sue over $1... it's not the monetary amount.... it's the principal..

Agree with you Bob, but like I said in the original post, it's weird to me how somebody with a two year long reputation and a successful business outside of WSOs, could ever be viewed as a scammer for such a small amount of money...

I don't know a lot of millionaires that will sue over a $1 if it costs them more, that's just bad business haha

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fluffythewondercat 11 years ago

My main gripe is that why for $7, $9, even $17 or $27 do people think that they absolutely own your soul and can talk to you however they want?

A stray neuron kicked on when I read that and it took me a while to figure it out. But here it is.

This is from Lynne Truss's terrific book on rudeness and manners, _Talk to the Hand_.

"A man wanted to buy a book. He had entered a reputable bookshop and been treated in an off-hand manner when he asked for help. Then, having located the book himself, he paid for it with his credit card. The assistant put the bill in the bag, and he said, `I'd like you to put the bill separately, please,' at which he was told, `Well, you know where it is, you can do that yourself.'

"He felt aggrieved, and said so. `I've been in this shop for five minutes and spent thirty pounds, and no one has been polite to me.' At which the assistant retorted, `Just because you spent thirty pounds doesn't mean you've bought my soul.'"

fLufF
--
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bobcarlsjr 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

I don't know a lot of millionaires that will sue over a $1 if it costs them more, that's just bad business haha

try heading to asia.. you will see how strong the "integrity" issues are over there................ they are very unlike the US.. watch some chinese shows and you will see how loyalty, honesty, and integrity is utmost for them..

and if they are correct, they won't have to pay lawyer fees anyway, so yes, they will sue for $1 even if it costs more.. becuase they don't pay for it!!
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subten101 11 years ago

I understand where you are coming from, best thing would be to blacklist these customers if they give you so much trouble. But I do believe you should treat all your customers the same even if the value is $7 or $97$
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James Foster

11 years ago

Brenden, most of them are sad people who don't have any real control over their day to day life - so they try to take it out their frustration where they think they do have some control.

It's kind of like the child who misbehaves for attention.

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat

My main gripe is that why for $7, $9, even $17 or $27 do people think that they absolutely own your soul and can talk to you however they want?

A stray neuron kicked on when I read that and it took me a while to figure it out. But here it is.

This is from Lynne Truss's terrific book on rudeness and manners, _Talk to the Hand_.

"A man wanted to buy a book. He had entered a reputable bookshop and been treated in an off-hand manner when he asked for help. Then, having located the book himself, he paid for it with his credit card. The assistant put the bill in the bag, and he said, `I'd like you to put the bill separately, please,' at which he was told, `Well, you know where it is, you can do that yourself.'

"He felt aggrieved, and said so. `I've been in this shop for five minutes and spent thirty pounds, and no one has been polite to me.' At which the assistant retorted, `Just because you spent thirty pounds doesn't mean you've bought my soul.'"

fLufF
--

Great story and quote! Even though I'm not rude, I can still see the parallel that's drawn there. Kind of helped me put in perspective, for sure.

Originally Posted by James Foster

Brenden, most of them are sad people who don't have any real control over their day to day life - so they try to take it out their frustration where they think they do have some control.

It's kind of like the child who misbehaves for attention.

James,

Perfect analogy. Never thought of it that way. Also helped me a lot.

Man, even though I don't come for advice on this forum often and keep to myself, maybe I should do it more. As much as people talk badly about WF, this place really DOES rock socks.

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ckbank

11 years ago

I agree with you, but you gotta remember this. The customer is always right.

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Anonymous Affiliate 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ckbank

I agree with you, but you gotta remember this. The customer is always right.

This is SO wrong in so many levels... the customer is not always right, in the same ways that sometimes it's not in your best interest to try to keep every particular customer happy. There have been times when I've issued a refund (without being asked for it ) because that particular customer was simply clogging my customer-support staff.
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J Bold 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ckbank

I agree with you, but you gotta remember this. The customer is always right.

Pure myth.

Is the customer right when they threaten your life over $7?

Nope.

There are many, many times when the customer is wrong.

Just as there are many times when a seller may be wrong.

But the customer is definitely not always right.
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- CDarklock 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by redicelander
  
  Pure myth.
  
  That saying is advice for customer service personnel.
  
  It means never tell the customer he is wrong.
  
  When a customer comes in and says "I want a refund for this shirt which I never wore," and it's got sweat stains in the armpits and ketchup on the front, and he doesn't have the receipt...
  
  You do not say "you lying sack of crap, you obviously wore this shirt."
  
  You say "I'm sorry, we need the receipt to accept a return."
  
  When he complains that he bought it just the other day and is in here all the time, you say "oh, yes sir, I know - I recognise you from the other day - but my hands are tied and I can't accept a return without the receipt."
  
  When he complains that this isn't fair and he should be able to get his money back without the receipt, you say "oh, I agree, sir... but there is honestly nothing I can do."
  
  When he produces a receipt, you still can't say "clearly you wore this shirt." You say you can't accept the return in this condition.
  
  When he complains it was like that when he bought it, you say "oh, my, that's not right; the cashier should have seen this and gotten you a clean one - but I'm afraid I still can't accept the return."
  
  Notice how the customer is always right, but he is still not returning this stained shirt for a refund.
  
  It's still good advice, if you use it the way it's intended: to shut down complaining arseholes who try to bully your support staff until they get their way.
  
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Danny McConnell

11 years ago

Some people are just bitter and distrustful by nature. Their go to position is to assume that they have been done wrong and to react poorly. While I agree that every customer should be treated with respect, it is not unreasonable to expect the customer to act the same way. Dan

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YasirYar

11 years ago

The oldest rule of sales is the customer is always right. This may have lost its meaning in the internet marketing where there is hardly any physical interaction. But when someone offers a refund then people think that they have to show you that you are wrong and that is why the best way to offer a refund is "30 days refund policy no questions asked" This way you'll not get tormenting mails. Delays in refunds always give birth to suspicions as there are many scams around you can't really blame people for losing patience.

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skyyisthelimit

11 years ago

I think we should all keep our cool including sellers and buyers.

If a buyer buys something there is ALWAYS the risk that maybe it can not be refunded, because the seller is somebody in africa trying to scam.

I havent heard of sellers being threatened though, sounds like very frustrated/disappointed buyers. and sometimes people just act irrationally

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Samrath Gupta

11 years ago

I agree as well as understand your situation!

Sometimes its about misunderstandings and if you do things late from your side they start making you a scammer by starting threads like- xxx is SCAM!! and bla bla...

This is very bad !! Buyers should understand this and before doing anything wrong like you mentioned some people managed to get your phone number and started threatening you.. They should atleast wait for 2-3 days or get in touch with you or support staff POLITELY

But if we see things from a buyers point of view he is also right at his place just the action he took was WRONG !!

Good luck with your next launches and YES blacklist those people who are just FREEBIE grabber

Regards
~Sam~

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Have you ever thought don't sell crap products and this won't happen?

I'm not saying your product... Just products in general... I have no clue what your product is.

Tips on not getting refunds:

Don't give the illusion of making huge money...
Don't make claims that really can't be obtained by the buyer...
Make a forum where buyers can get together and work together on ideals and how to use your product to the fullest..
Make a time line of when they will expect the results you claim.
Be reasonable

If your product does what it says it will there is no reason for a refund...

Richard

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate

This is SO wrong in so many levels... the customer is not always right, in the same ways that sometimes it's not in your best interest to try to keep every particular customer happy. There have been times when I've issued a refund (without being asked for it ) because that particular customer was simply clogging my customer-support staff.

Thanks for the encouraging words, and yes, I've done the same before! Sometimes it's just like, "Here, take your money back instead." They get to the point where they're almost requesting personal coaching for the price of a WSO.

Originally Posted by Samrath Gupta

I agree as well as understand your situation!

Sometimes its about misunderstandings and if you do things late from your side they start making you a scammer by starting threads like- xxx is SCAM!! and bla bla...

This is very bad !! Buyers should understand this and before doing anything wrong like you mentioned some people managed to get your phone number and started threatening you.. They should atleast wait for 2-3 days or get in touch with you or support staff POLITELY

But if we see things from a buyers point of view he is also right at his place just the action he took was WRONG !!

Good luck with your next launches and YES blacklist those people who are just FREEBIE grabber

Regards
~Sam~

Agree with a lot of what you said. I don't mind somebody buying and refunding to get it for free, people are going to do that, and it's part of the business, and it's actually figured into our profit projections every year... but I mind when they do it so irrationally and angrily that it makes me feel like I'm a bad person, when I'm almost positive I'm not.

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Have you ever thought don't sell crap products and this won't happen?

I'm not saying your product... Just products in general... I have no clue what your product is.

Tips on not getting refunds:

Don't give the illusion of making huge money...
Don't make claims that really can't be obtained by the buyer...
Make a forum where buyers can get together and work together on ideals and how to use your product to the fullest..
Make a time line of when they will expect the results you claim.
Be reasonable

If your product does what it says it will there is no reason for a refund...

Richard

Richard,

Yeah, the volume of refunds isn't the problem. When I made 1,200 sales on the last product and got 11 refunds, it's just going to be fact that out of that many people SOMEBODY is going to know a lot of what you're teaching them, and be on a near knowledge level with you.

I obviously don't do any of those - perhaps the main gripe of the post got lost in the rant for you, but I agree with everything you've said, no doubt about that!

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Shoot

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Have you ever thought don't sell crap products and this won't happen?

I'm not saying your product... Just products in general... I have no clue what your product is.

Tips on not getting refunds:

Don't give the illusion of making huge money...
Don't make claims that really can't be obtained by the buyer...
Make a forum where buyers can get together and work together on ideals and how to use your product to the fullest..
Make a time line of when they will expect the results you claim.
Be reasonable

If your product does what it says it will there is no reason for a refund...

Richard

Yep I am sure its a I promise you the world for 7 bucks.

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affhelper

11 years ago

What's amazing is that people think $7 entitles them to get ongoing support from you lol

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by affhelper

What's amazing is that people think $7 entitles them to get ongoing support from you lol

I don't mind answering a few questions, but two months later when someone has a specific question and wants me to in detail go over a process, it can get kind of irritating.

I should offer an extended email support option or something where they get direct access and explanations beyond the scope of the WSO from me personally, and just solve the whole issue that way.

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Shoot

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

I don't mind answering a few questions, but two months later when someone has a specific question and wants me to in detail go over a process, it can get kind of irritating.

I should offer an extended email support option or something where they get direct access and explanations beyond the scope of the WSO from me personally, and just solve the whole issue that way.

I offer a different monthly "maintenance" plans for just those situations.

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RichardDean 11 years ago

Originally Posted by affhelper

What's amazing is that people think $7 entitles them to get ongoing support from you lol

Are you out to make seven bucks or out to truly help people?

The price is no a issue.

You need to help them with what ever the buy for as long as they need help.

Richard
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- affhelper 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by RichardDean
  
  Are you out to make seven bucks or out to truly help people?
  
  The $7 product already helps them. It gives you a tip or whatever and it's your responsibility to implement it.
  
  Originally Posted by RichardDean
  
  You need to help them with what ever the buy for as long as they need help.
  
  Richard
  
  For $7?! I don't think so
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  affhelper 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by RichardDean
  
  If you're not kidding ...ahhh
  
  Note to myself: Don't ever buy anything from "affhelper"
  
  Richard
  
  I hope you don't because I won't coach you for $7...sorry.
  
  ps. I have never written a Fiverr guide lol ...so you might want to edit your comment.
  
  Thanks
  
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Black Hat Cat

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Have you ever thought don't sell crap products and this won't happen?

I'm not saying your product... Just products in general... I have no clue what your product is.

Tips on not getting refunds:

Don't give the illusion of making huge money...
Don't make claims that really can't be obtained by the buyer...
Make a forum where buyers can get together and work together on ideals and how to use your product to the fullest..
Make a time line of when they will expect the results you claim.
Be reasonable

If your product does what it says it will there is no reason for a refund...

Richard

Meanwhile, back in the real world, that isn't necessarily the case.

Are you out to make seven bucks or out to truly help people?

The price is no a issue.

You need to help them with what ever the buy for as long as they need help.

Richard

Umm....no.

Why are they going to ask for the refund for if there is no reason?

We can look at the WSO section I can see thousands of headlines that say refund just by what they claim...

Don't give them a reason they won't ask for a refund...

You guys/gals do it to yourself... Just don't give them a reason.

Richard

You can't be that stupid. I bet you believe the homeless guy on the street who asks you for food money is really going to use it for food too, don't you, lol?

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

You can't be that stupid. I bet you believe the homeless guy on the street who asks you for food money is really going to use it for food too, don't you, lol?

I can tell you this we went to Las Vegas, and there are a lot of homeless or pan handlers out at night...

Yes I gave... to the honest guy who had a sign that said :

With the money I'm going to buy beer

Honest sells

Richard

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sloanjim

11 years ago

And just think some rich dude will blow $10k+ on a lap dancing bar tonight..$500+ bottles of "champagne, etc." ...$7. What do you expect? I'd rather sell 1 $2k+ produc than 50 $7 products as I know where the pain in the as is coming from. It's probably 3 hours work money to them. Sadly.

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sloanjim

11 years ago

I wouldn't go that far. Look at his from their prespective. They have probably been scammed like 1000 times already (it is the Net.). Asked for a refund several times with no reply...

Are they that unreasonable? Ok it was only $7....but to an Indian that might be half a days pay etc... So I wouldn't brush them off that quick as a seriel w***** or anything.

Some people are just bitter and distrustful by nature. Their go to position is to assume that they have been done wrong and to react poorly. While I agree that every customer should be treated with respect, it is not unreasonable to expect the customer to act the same way. Dan

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JSProjects

11 years ago

I used to invest far too much time in people that were serial complainers, or people that demanded refunds almost immediately. Granted, these people were few and far between. (Almost everyone that I work with is fantastic.)

These days, I simply try and see what I can do to help. If after a short chat or an email or two they're still complaining, demanding too much, etc, I simply offer them a full refund and move on.

I used to do niche sites for people and still have the occasional nightmares of 20+ emails back and forth requesting constant modifications, frequent additions that were worth far more than the fee I requested, etc. It was just a hassle.

Again, though, fortunately most everyone I have worked with has been a pleasure. Don't let a few bad apples ruin your experience. Offer a refund (even if you don't feel it's warranted) and move on.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JSProjects

I used to invest far too much time in people that were serial complainers, or people that demanded refunds almost immediately. Granted, these people were few and far between. (Almost everyone that I work with is fantastic.)

If someone ask for a refund right after they buy they are not serial refunders.
you have no clue if they have none this before or not... I can open a product and see if it is good or not in a few minutes...

There was a fiverr product 13 pages long or so and the first 10 pages was how to open a fiver account... the last page told you to sell the service for higher then buy the fiverr gig and you can make money... You can tell this is crap in a few seconds.

If you can't handle tough questions after the sale then stop selling stuff.

If your 100% honest on your sales page no hype no lies and you tell the buyer what they get upfront... there would be no reason to have complainers. Correct!

Don't give them something to complain about.

Richard

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TopKat22

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

If your 100% honest on your sales page no hype no lies and you tell the buyer what they get upfront... there would be no reason to have complainers. Correct!

Don't give them something to complain about.

Richard

All very good advice and is definitely the way to go.

However, there will always be those who complain and ask for refunds regardless of what you do.

You just have to give the refund and move on.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TopKat22

All very good advice and is definitely the way to go.

However, there will always be those who complain and ask for refunds regardless of what you do.

You just have to give the refund and move on.

Why are they going to ask for the refund for if there is no reason?

We can look at the WSO section I can see thousands of headlines that say refund just by what they claim...

Don't give them a reason they won't ask for a refund...

You guys/gals do it to yourself... Just don't give them a reason.

Richard

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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Why are they going to ask for the refund for if there is no reason?

That's a good question, Richard. Why do people steal?
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dbarnum 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Don't give them a reason they won't ask for a refund...

Have to disagree here. Working with other web marketers' charge back issues at Clickbank, I can tell you for a fact that there are quite a few liars out there, manipulators, blatant thieves and others who believe they own you and the "systems" in place out there, i.e. should be able to do what they want regardless of whether it's right or wrong. For instance, some Clickbank refunders have said things like:

- "I never received my product..." - when there is more than enough evidence that they logged in and clicked your download links, etc.

- "The software never arrived in the mail on CDs / DVDs..." when it clearly was an online member area only, with nothing supposed to be mailed - no address ever even asked for, etc. And again, you have plenty of evidence that these folks logged in and downloaded your ebooks and other data.

- "I tried this and it didn't work..." - when there was clearly no way they did because only 2 minutes passed since the purchase.

Bottom line here: until places like Clickbank stop granting refunds on a whim, these types of refunders / transactions could very well be in your scenario, and you just have to factor them in, or use another payment processing system.
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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Why are they going to ask for the refund for if there is no reason?

Richard

So they can reuse the $7 on another wso. You would be surprised how far $7 can go in the wso forum.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

That's a good question, Richard. Why do people steal?

I'm not saying they don't steal... but I'm saying don't give them a reason to steal....

WSO title
$3,000.00 a Month in 30 Minutes a Day...

This is a reason to ask for a refund... don't give them a reason...

Doors only have locks to keep the honest people honest.

Originally Posted by dbarnum

Have to disagree here. Working with other web marketers' charge back issues at Clickbank, I can tell you for a fact that there are quite a few liars out there, manipulators, blatant thieves and others who believe they own you and the "systems" in place out there, i.e. should be able to do what they want regardless of whether it's right or wrong. For instance, some Clickbank refunders have said things like:

- "I never received my product..." - when there is more than enough evidence that they logged in and clicked your download links, etc.

- "The software never arrived in the mail on CDs / DVDs..." when it clearly was an online member area only, with nothing supposed to be mailed - no address ever even asked for, etc. And again, you have plenty of evidence that these folks logged in and downloaded your ebooks and other data.

- "I tried this and it didn't work..." - when there was clearly no way they did because only 2 minutes passed since the purchase.

Bottom line here: until places like Clickbank stop granting refunds on a whim, these types of refunders / transactions could very well be in your scenario, and you just have to factor them in, or use another payment processing system.

Your talking about clickbank they are give refunds for any reason you have been a round a long time to might remember we had a thread back in the day to see who could use what refund excuse... One really sent to clickbank :
I farted and did not like how it smelled I want a refund and they refunded them... CB is a whole other story.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

So they can reuse the $7 on another wso. You would be surprised how far $7 can go in the wso forum.

LOL instead of refund send them the money so they get a paypal fee taken out of the 7 bucks... then they don't have the whole 7 to buy the next one.

State in the refund policy a fee of 3.00 for processing refunds...

Start a new trend in refund policy.

Don't just think out side the box make the box clear so you can see through it and view all sides at once.

Richard

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Tom B Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

State in the refund policy a fee of 3.00 for processing refunds...

Richard

I like to stay within the norm, Richard. I just charge a restocking fee for all my digital products.
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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

WSO title
$3,000.00 a Month in 30 Minutes a Day...

This is a reason to ask for a refund...

No, that is a reason not to buy the product.

If you do not believe you can make $3k a month in 30 minutes a day, then keep your money and move along please.

If you pull out the money and buy the product, then you should expect to get a guide that honestly and effectively explains how you can make this kind of money in that kind of time.

If you don't like it, that is not the product vendor's fault, and you should not be asking for a refund.

If you don't do it, that is also not the product vendor's fault, and you should not be asking for a refund.

The only reason to ask for a refund is that the product is not what the vendor told you it was.

Like if you ordered cornbread at a restaurant, and they brought you a shoe.

Now, don't get me wrong. I believe you should give a refund to anyone who wants a refund. I don't care what stupid reason you have for wanting the refund. I don't even care how long it's been since you bought the product. I am not going to argue that I only have a 60 day guarantee and you've had the product 64 days. That's stupid. It's easier to just give the refund and say "have a nice day."

But here you are looking at the title of a product on the WSO forum and calling it a reason to ask for a refund.

Not a reason to buy a different product.

You seem to honestly think it would be okay to buy this product, knowing that you are going to ask for the money back.
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TopKat22 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Why are they going to ask for the refund for if there is no reason?

I should've said, no legitimate, based on the product, reason.

It could be:

They want to get something for nothing.

They charged it and now can't afford it or a spouse or parent are upset about he charge so they said they would just ask for a refund and keep the product because afterall, it had a no questions ask refund policy.

They didn't read all about it and was expecting something different than what they bought.

It can go on and on.
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Matt Bard

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Why are they going to ask for the refund for if there is no reason?

Certain niches (especially Make Make Online) have higher amounts of serial hobbyists (dreamers). Serial hobbyists are more impulsive and most impulsive buyers experience "Buyer's Remorse" more than the average consumer.

When you combine sales pages that are designed to stimulate impulsive buyers with a low price point, it increases the impulsive buyers and therefore increases the amount of buyer's remorse.

Another side effect of a serial hobbyist and an impulsive buyer is that after a certain amount of time, they no longer accept responsibility for their behavior.

Therefore, it's not their fault so it must be yours.

The more time you spend arguing with them the more convinced they become that you are to blame.

The bigger the fight with them, the more likely that they will go beyond just asking for a refund and can possibly take it to the streets (like a forum where they can badmouth you in public).

So I believe the best approach regardless of who is right and wrong, is to handle it as quickly as possible in a polite manner and move on.

You will never be able to stop buyer's remorse from consumers but you can mitigate it a bit by reducing the impulsive copy and low entry points to your products.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

Certain niches (especially Make Make Online) have higher amounts of serial hobbyists (dreamers). Serial hobbyists are more impulsive and most impulsive buyers experience "Buyer's Remorse" more than the average consumer.

Don't sell them a dream. Again don't load the gun for them.

When you combine sales pages that are designed to stimulate impulsive buyers (over promise with hype that appeals to the dream of the serial hobbyist) with a low price point, it increases the impulsive buyers and therefore increases the amount of buyer's remorse.

Another side effect of a serial hobbyist and an impulsive buyer is that after a certain amount of time, they no longer accept responsibility for their behavior.

Therefore, it's not their fault so it must be yours.

If I say you give me a dollar... I will give you 10. And if you give me a dollar and I don't give you a ten... yes it is the sellers fault.

The more time you spend arguing with them the more convinced they become that you are to blame.

The bigger the fight with them, the more likely that they will go beyond just asking for a refund and can possibly take it to the streets (like a forum where they can badmouth you in public).

So I believe the best approach regardless of who is right and wrong, is to handle it as quickly as possible in a polite manner and move on.

You will never be able to stop buyer's remorse from consumers but you can mitigate it a bit by reducing the impulsive copy and low entry points to your products.

Most of the time it is the sellers fault for over hype making a claims that can't really be done... What can you do a lot of things...

Help them, follow up with them, take that WSO headline I posted 3,000 with 30 minutes work... then do the 30 min of work for them all it takes is 30 min... then you should be able to do that for them, and the result should be 3000.00 and they would not ask for a refund... but if 30 min work don't produce 3000.00 then ask for the refund.

by making claims like this you loaded the gun then handed it to them.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

Literally, you are going to spend that much in gas, TODAY, I promise you.

I don't own a car. You broke your promise. I demand a refund. :p

At the end of the day, it really makes me want to quit WSOs, public launches, and the whole spiel all together

Stop doing it for $7.

People who spend $500+ for a product don't act like this, because they're smart enough - and mature enough - to have gotten their hands on $500.

I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, selling your product at ghetto prices gets you ghetto customers. If you don't want to have that kind of customer, bump your prices up until they can't afford it anymore. Then tell the ones who complain about your prices where they can stick it.

This is why they can't have nice things.

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Matt Bard

11 years ago

If you a make a sale you make a living. If you make an investment of time and good service in a customer, you can make a fortune. - Jim Rohn

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TopKat22

11 years ago

Become really famous and well known (in your own market or nationally) and you will get slammed by every "Tom, Dick & Harry" that has an opinion.

I once made the front page of the business section with a headline saying how I scammed a client and the person had ALREADY gotten a full refund not even subtracting out the services they had already received.

When I let the newspaper know, they printed a tiny retraction on some back page of the business section.

Some of my other business friends and I used to joke about it saying "you know you've really "made it" when people you don't even know start slamming you.

I'm not sure of the human mental mechanism that causes this type of behaviour. I've just seen it many times.

Just forget about them and move on.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I don't own a car. You broke your promise. I demand a refund. :p

Stop doing it for $7.

People who spend $500+ for a product don't act like this, because they're smart enough - and mature enough - to have gotten their hands on $500.

I mean, not to put too fine a point on it, selling your product at ghetto prices gets you ghetto customers. If you don't want to have that kind of customer, bump your prices up until they can't afford it anymore. Then tell the ones who complain about your prices where they can stick it.

This is why they can't have nice things.

CDarklock, I have actually found that to be very true. You will get more complaints and have more upsets with people buying at the lower end of the price scale in just about ANY market than you will at the higher end of the price scale.

Anyway, that has been my experience.

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bob432

11 years ago

As one new to this forum and an WSO buyer, I can sympathize with both buyer and seller. In this economy, there are lots of people out there with little $s and lots of hope. When they come across the promises of a $7 WSO that it is going to make them money with a very short period of time without any hard work, and they can use that money to solve all their problems, you've created a monster. And the more you sell that theme, the more irritating the buyer is going to be when they find out that real work is involved and that they have to spend more money and time they don't have. You are not refunding their money, you are refunding their hopes and dreams, which are priceless to them. Be careful my friends when selling hopes and dreams so cheaply. Always include a disclaimer somewhere in there that says real work and effort is involved, or at least some additional software and support they can buy as an add on that will help them succeed.

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Mike Ogbin

11 years ago

I want to add something here after enjoy reading the point of views of all friends here.

In my experience I am sure that you treated with people that their intention is to ask you for a refund after they received the product in order to get back their money and getting yours for free as a result.

There is another type of people that ask you for a refund; they want an instant result for making money online without doing any method or any action at all. This kind of people I called them " Quick scheme making money insaner"

.

These types of people are everywhere; the online and the offline.

Don't have an ego here; it's better to have a solid personality and great super-performing to logically decide the right decision and continue do what you love.

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Kierkegaard

11 years ago

People don't even have to buy something to think they own you. Well, more accurately that because you published something you now owe each and every reader your undivided attention.

I've had people email me with a short paragraph, "I liked your book/article/etc. and I have a question..." which I answer and there's the end of it. But no, the next day there's a 1000 word email with more questions, ideas and general tidbits of information. A brief reply from me and... a 2000 word response!

Obviously most people are not like this but you only need 5 or 6 demanding your time and simply responding to them is a full days work.

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dbarnum 11 years ago

I think some of the reason is this, in a nutshell.

We are marketers. While many people here can write absolutely fantastic sales letters that convert, let's face it - there is still a lot of hype in these letters. Not in all or any a huge percentage. I'm just saying that some people promise the moon and then some, and yes, people buy into that.

My company has handled support for many web marketers for awhile now, and we see it over and over. You get buyers like:

- elderly (we're talking in their 80's) with zero tech skills outside of email and buying online with a charge card, signing up for programs where they clearly shouldn't.

- newbies with zero skills who clearly dislike reading more than about 2 paragraphs, want videos yet cannot figure out out to download them to pause them, rewind, etc., so they have basically little learning tools. And they truly have a tough time with even the most basic tasks like downloading files and opening zips. And these folks always want to use default settings and software, etc. that's originally set up on their laptops and computers, which is most often Internet Explorer and other similar software that simply is not the best solution for web work today.

Now I am not finger-pointing, have no idea what your sales page says or anything, no idea what you are selling. Thus this may not be a criticism for you. You asked why?

I'm just saying that some Internet marketing sales letters say their programs are fine for newbies, for earning mega bucks overnight with no work involved, more or less. And people buy into that. Yes, seriously, some people give you part of their rent or grocery money and truly expect the return by Friday to pay their bills. No kidding, they are dead serious.

So until sales letters truly point out facts right above the Buy buttons, stating actually skills required and actually provide very, very, very basic hand-holding for newbies today, plus estimated learning curves, estimated time to get money, etc. people will think they should get much more than they do for $7. And they get super upset if they feel tricked into messing around.

OK, hope that helps! Again, not all folks think that way. But for some of the ones who are most upset, the above seems to be the case.
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JimWaller

11 years ago

I the spirit of under-promising and over-delivering, have your policies state there is a 1 month wait for refunds and a minimum of 72 hours for support requests, but let them be pleasantly surprised when you get it done quicker.
Additionally, make sure support requests have an autoresponder message that informs them of this policy.
Heck, you can even have an autoresponder set up that sends a message every day reassuring them you'll get to their support request ASAP. It's easy enough with a single opt-in, but part of your support process would need to include removing them from the autoresponder. Just an idea...

Jim Waller

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AdwordsMogul

11 years ago

Originally Posted by JimWaller

.... have your policies state there is a 1 month wait for refunds and a minimum of 72 hours for support requests, but let them be pleasantly surprised when you get it done quicker.
...

Jim Waller

The issue here is that people may start a dispute or a chargeback which can only work against you.

The best way is to refund, and say goodbye.

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Don't sell them a dream. Again don't load the gun for them.

....
Help them, follow up with them, take that WSO headline I posted 3,000 with 30 minutes work... then do the 30 min of work for them all it takes is 30 min... then you should be able to do that for them, and the result should be 3000.00 and they would not ask for a refund... but if 30 min work don't produce 3000.00 then ask for the refund.

by making claims like this you loaded the gun then handed it to them.

Richard

Why should anyone follow up and help them? Why should the seller do the work for them?

The thing is these people DO NOT take action - they're are either planning on stealing from the very beginning, or they read and say to themselves "Oh geez, this looks like work - I need to get my money back.

These are not honest, realistic ADULTS. They are people spoilt by the modern culture with no willingness to change.

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Steven Fullman

11 years ago

If you position your offer as being WORTH $700, then SOME folks will EXPECT $700 worth of satisfaction...even if your price is $7.

Because YOU'VE set their expectation.

BEWARE charging less than your average prospect will cost YOU to support your product.

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stephenwaldo

11 years ago

I mean, the thing that you need to realize is that there are WSO sellers who DO ignore refund requests, and who DO force you to go to PayPal, and who DO continue to send you daily promotional emails and launch new products through the whole thing. So, while I agree that 6 - 10 emails within 48 hours is completely out of line, it's not necessarily unwarranted.

I can tell you that I've had some pretty bad experiences with WSO sellers in the past through no fault of my own, and I can certainly see how a frustrated newbie could get worked up if they felt shafted again, and again, and again. It could certainly color your initial reaction.

My advice to the OP is to remember that everybody has a story, end of that somewhere somehow there is a reason that people act the way they do. Give them their refund, don't let it get to you, and continue building your business and making more money.

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PhilippaWrites

11 years ago

A few months ago I hired a bloke on fiverr to transcribe a few videos for me. I hate transcription, and he was offering to transcribe 20 minutes of video for a fiverr, which is an unbelievable deal.

He did the work and sent it back. He wasn't a native Brit / Oz / American / Canadian etc. so there were a few mistakes, but the vast majority was brilliant, it took me just a few minutes to make the fixes, so i left glowing feedback.

A few weeks later I bought the same gig off him again, again he did a fantastic job except for the odd misheard or misunderstood words or phrases. A fellow buyer had just left feedback saying "this is AWFUL it's full of mistakes I'm going to have to go through it all again and fix it. Dreadful seller!".

The interesting thing was he probably had the same number of errors as I did, but how he perceived it was totally different. He felt entitled to perfection. I felt, well, this guy is taking a job I hate off my hands, and doing a LOT for his $4. I would much rather have to fix a few errors than transcribe the whole thing.

So my feedback, somewhat passive-aggressively I guess, said, "More brilliant work, great seller. Sure, there was the odd error, but he is offering a very generous amount of work for his $4. Will definitely buy from again!".

If you spend $20,000 on a service then damn, get the person you buy it from to rework it until it's fixed. If you spend $5, then at worst, just think, "Well maybe I can't get the service I would like when I pay so little. Ah well, was worth a try".

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George Tee

11 years ago

In my opinion, these people who shout and threatened you usually most of the time, applies to the Warriors. Sad to say..

I've been selling on clickbank on my niche products and most of the customers are polite. And the best thing is that most of the products are in the $30 - $40 range.

The other time, we did a WSO and sold over 1k products and I notice there are so much difference between warriors and other kind of customers. Warriors customers seem harder to please and they seem to love abusing the refund system.

From what I see, it's best to choose your target audience wisely.

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by George Tee

In my opinion, these people who shout and threatened you usually most of the time, applies to the Warriors. Sad to say..

I've been selling on clickbank on my niche products and most of the customers are polite. And the best thing is that most of the products are in the $30 - $40 range.

This is why I love Clickbank as well. If a customer wants a refund give it to them who cares! If you made a good product or provide a good service a refund will turn into a sale in a few hours. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is your profits!

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

No, that is a reason not to buy the product.

If you pull out the money and buy the product, then you should expect to get a guide that honestly and effectively explains how you can make this kind of money in that kind of time.

The only reason to ask for a refund is that the product is not what the vendor told you it was.

Like if you ordered cornbread at a restaurant, and they brought you a shoe.

But here you are looking at the title of a product on the WSO forum and calling it a reason to ask for a refund.

You seem to honestly think it would be okay to buy this product, knowing that you are going to ask for the money back.

The reason is I have yet in my 20 years to see a product that you can do 30 minutes work and get 3000.00 ...

Here is what could be said I worked 30 minutes like you said and I did not get 3000.00 So I want a refund.

You gave them a reason to ask for the refund, You supplied them the reason ... by making a claim that is not realistic you load the gun cock the trigger then you handed it to them...

Remove statements that can be used against you...

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

Why should anyone follow up and help them? Why should the seller do the work for them?

.

I really hope your being sarcastic here...

Originally Posted by PhilippaWrites

A few months ago I hired a bloke on fiverr to transcribe a few videos for me. I hate transcription, and he was offering to transcribe 20 minutes of video for a fiverr, which is an unbelievable deal.

He did the work and sent it back. He wasn't a native Brit / Oz / American / Canadian etc. so there were a few mistakes, but the vast majority was brilliant, it took me just a few minutes to make the fixes, so i left glowing feedback.

A few weeks later I bought the same gig off him again, again he did a fantastic job except for the odd misheard or misunderstood words or phrases. A fellow buyer had just left feedback saying "this is AWFUL it's full of mistakes I'm going to have to go through it all again and fix it. Dreadful seller!".

The interesting thing was he probably had the same number of errors as I did, but how he perceived it was totally different. He felt entitled to perfection. I felt, well, this guy is taking a job I hate off my hands, and doing a LOT for his $4. I would much rather have to fix a few errors than transcribe the whole thing.

So my feedback, somewhat passive-aggressively I guess, said, "More brilliant work, great seller. Sure, there was the odd error, but he is offering a very generous amount of work for his $4. Will definitely buy from again!".

If you spend $20,000 on a service then damn, get the person you buy it from to rework it until it's fixed. If you spend $5, then at worst, just think, "Well maybe I can't get the service I would like when I pay so little. Ah well, was worth a try".

YES this is a great example... Before you buy a fiverr think to yourself they are doing you a favor because they are doing you a favor for like no money at all... time fees and said and done a fiverr is 2.70 and just asking someone a question it cost them more than 2.70 to take the time and answer you.

Look as fiverr as a favor they are doing for you, forget about the 5 bucks.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

The reason is I have yet in my 20 years to see a product that you can do 30 minutes work and get 3000.00 ...

Except that's not what it says.

It says $3,000 a month with 30 minutes a day.

And it almost certainly doesn't happen overnight. Chances are it takes time to start working, and several hours of effort to put into place, and you may actually need to make a certain investment before it can happen.

And if you are in any way qualified to run a serious business on or off the internet, you should know this. And it shouldn't take twenty years to learn.

Which is precisely why when some dumbass says "I worked thirty minutes and didn't make $3,000 like you said," I just give him his money back and say thank you have a nice day.

Because even if he kept the product, he's too damn stupid to use it.

And that's me doing my part to keep idiots out of internet marketing.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by affhelper

I hope you don't because I won't coach you for $7...sorry.

ps. I have never written a Fiverr guide lol ...so you might want to edit your comment.

Did not say you wrote it but by the way you talk you write stuff like this... one tip and charge 7 bucks and don't offer any support or help.

This is why people are asking for more and more refunds.

Try helping people not hurting IM

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Except that's not what it says.

It says $3,000 a month with 30 minutes a day.

And it almost certainly doesn't happen overnight. Chances are it takes time to start working, and several hours of effort to put into place, and you may actually need to make a certain investment before it can happen.

so yes you said it... it don't or won't happen... so why the Facade just say to make 3000.00 in 30 minutes it takes several hours several weeks several months... then it might not even work....so on.

You understand what I'm saying... stop selling the dream statement and tell it like it is...

And if you are in any way qualified to run a serious business on or off the internet, you should know this. And it shouldn't take twenty years to learn.

It took about 3 products 20 years ago.

Which is precisely why when some dumbass says "I worked thirty minutes and didn't make $3,000 like you said," I just give him his money back and say thank you have a nice day.

Then don't leave a loaded reason in your sales copy

Because even if he kept the product, he's too damn stupid to use it.

And that's me doing my part to keep idiots out of internet marketing.

Stupid for buying it in the first place LOL... But your right on too stupid to use it.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

so yes you said it... it don't or won't happen...

Nope. Wrong. Look again.

$3,000 a month in 30 minutes a day

That can and does happen. If you work 30 minutes a day, every day, for a month - you can in fact make $3,000. Or more.

But you need to have certain skills. You'll have to learn them. Duh.

And you need to have certain tools. You'll have to buy them. Duh.

And putting the skills and the tools together so you can do the work in 30 minutes or less... well, you guessed it, that takes practice. You'll have to work. Duh.

But at the end of it, you have a system which can make you $3,000 a month, every month, and you only have to work 30 minutes a day. Except, you know, every day. And it will take at least a month to see the first $3,000. Probably two or three of them.

Not because of the system, but because you don't know WTF you're doing and need to get used to it. Experience matters. You'll need to develop some.

And if you don't like the fact that it takes time, and you have to work, and you might need to learn something or spend some money...

Just because it's not a free lunch doesn't mean you can't eat it. When you look at that headline and see "Make $3,000 in 30 minutes," it is not the vendor giving you a reason to refund. It is YOU not paying enough damn attention to what people are saying.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Nope. Wrong. Look again.

$3,000 a month in 30 minutes a day

That can and does happen. If you work 30 minutes a day, every day, for a month - you can in fact make $3,000. Or more.

But you need to have certain skills. You'll have to learn them. Duh.

And you need to have certain tools. You'll have to buy them. Duh.

And putting the skills and the tools together so you can do the work in 30 minutes or less... well, you guessed it, that takes practice. You'll have to work. Duh.

But at the end of it, you have a system which can make you $3,000 a month, every month, and you only have to work 30 minutes a day. Except, you know, every day. And it will take at least a month to see the first $3,000. Probably two or three of them.

Then just say that don't use hype and half truths and full lies... don't leave the door open for the refund.

And don't bitch when the refund comes because of over hyped statements.

Richard

I can take a crap in a box and guarantee it... all you have is a guaranteed piece of crap...
Stop selling crap I say.

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I like to stay within the norm, Richard. I just charge a restocking fee for all my digital products.

LOL I laughed hard at this one, it was great.

Originally Posted by Steven Fullman

If you position your offer as being WORTH $700, then SOME folks will EXPECT $700 worth of satisfaction...even if your price is $7.

Because YOU'VE set their expectation.

BEWARE charging less than your average prospect will cost YOU to support your product.

Steven, we've talked in the past and I highly respect your opinion. Perhaps I need to settle for much lower conversions, less clients, and higher prices. I guess in the end it might be more profit, too, with less headaches.

I agree with what you say, and it makes a lot of sense. Although - I wonder if there is a way to set a more fair expectation that you might get a $7 product, but EXPECT a $7 product, and when you get $700 worth, you won't ever in a million years even think about being rude.

Makes me think...

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Nope. Wrong. Look again.

$3,000 a month in 30 minutes a day

That can and does happen. If you work 30 minutes a day, every day, for a month - you can in fact make $3,000. Or more.

But you need to have certain skills. You'll have to learn them. Duh.

And you need to have certain tools. You'll have to buy them. Duh.

And putting the skills and the tools together so you can do the work in 30 minutes or less... well, you guessed it, that takes practice. You'll have to work. Duh.

But at the end of it, you have a system which can make you $3,000 a month, every month, and you only have to work 30 minutes a day. Except, you know, every day. And it will take at least a month to see the first $3,000. Probably two or three of them.

Not because of the system, but because you don't know WTF you're doing and need to get used to it. Experience matters. You'll need to develop some.

And if you don't like the fact that it takes time, and you have to work, and you might need to learn something or spend some money...

Just because it's not a free lunch doesn't mean you can't eat it. When you look at that headline and see "Make $3,000 in 30 minutes," it is not the vendor giving you a reason to refund. It is YOU not paying enough damn attention to what people are saying.

@CD and @Richard

You both have valid points. It's unethical, yes, to offer a OTO that will render the main offer useless if not purchased.

It's NOT unethical, to offer a main offer that is completely stand alone functional without the OTO, yet offer a OTO that enhances it.

I think the value should be charged accordingly. If the OTO is an upgraded version of the original offer that could have been sold as a higher price, it should be priced higher accordingly.

If it's just a webinar access or something else that is a nominal item, then it should have a nominal fee, lower than the main offer.

I think that a lot of people have started assuming it's okay to hit them with upsells and tons of downsells, however, I've seen this done right in an offer I just promoted recently.

They had four versions of the OTO, all the same things, but some of them didn't include all of the items, just certain ones that would have more mass appeal, and one version was $27, and one was $47. They also had some recordings you could purchase separately for $27 or $17 depending on how many you wanted.

It seemed very fair, and the $47 offer was literally a start to finish set of materials that the main offer described that would cost $500 to create yourself and tons of manhours. They're offering something that compliments it, for very cheap, and allows you to take it, run with it, and make $1,000 the next day.

To me, that's fair.

And to me, I think that the entire WSO market has gotten extremely self entitled and expect you to give them EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD for $7-$17.

If I have something I could sell publicly for $397, why would I ever even stop to think to include all of it in one offer for $7? This is part of OUR INCOME too! We work hard. Somebody previously said, let's say it takes 40 hours start to finish for one of your products. I've never had a product take less than 160 hours, minimum, for me to create. Because I pack it so full that you can't complain.

So yes, if I make 1000 sales at $7, I make $7000 in revenue. But $3000 of that goes to affiliates, most likely... then $1000 to my support staff for that week... $100 of it to refunds... and at the ends of the day I'm left with $2700 for 160 hours work, and that's less than a manager at the shoe store in the mall gets paid.

So YES, THAT is why we offer a OTO for more than the main offer, or else, I would be a manager at the shoe store in the mall, instead, as it's way less headaches and way less pain. Also: Way less money, unless the OTO is priced accordingly.

THAT, in my mind is why you can't get ALL OF IT in one package, for one price, because it's just not fair to us. We have more overhead than you'd believe, and while we're trying to be REALLY fair to you, I'm trying to be REALLY fair to me as well.

What's better? $397, or $17 and $27 (that equals $44, btw)... seems like a pretty steep discount (85%+)... and seems widely, and all encompassingly fair.

My two cents.

And man, this sure did start a much longer conversation than I originally thought it would! I think there's a lot of valid ideas/points being thrown around, and I like to see all angles, so I can shoot those angles. So give me more angles to shoot

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

THAT, in my mind is why you can't get ALL OF IT in one package, for one price, because it's just not fair to us. We have more overhead than you'd believe, and while we're trying to be REALLY fair to you, I'm trying to be REALLY fair to me as well.

I used to make about $3k a month selling WSOs.

Last June, I decided that what I really needed to do was learn affiliate marketing and listbuilding.

So I took all my products off the market for eight months. Dropped my product income to zero. Made 100% of my income from affiliate marketing to my list. And that income was basically squat fifty a day.

I sucked at affiliate marketing. Probably just as much as anyone else who knows next to nothing about it. But I made it my sole income, so I could learn it well. So I would treat "I didn't make enough on that promotion" as seriously as someone whose grocery budget depended on it, because I was that someone.

And now I've got the ingredients of a $2,000 product. So I've split it up, because most people don't have $2,000. And I've pulled out some of the more crucial stuff to put in even less expensive products. And I'm going to be releasing some of it at a deep discount to start with, so I can get it into more people's hands and help more people.

But in the end, what I really want you to do is buy the $2,000 product. So that deep-discount product is designed to help you make the money for a more expensive product, which is designed to help you move up to the next product, which should make you the $2,000 you need for the big one.

And if you're going to sit around and bitch about how you should get the WHOLE eight months for the same cut-rate discount price I'm charging to prove I worked my arse off and know what I'm talking about, go to hell.

If you don't like upsells, go buy from someone who's never done anything worth more than $10. Buy the rehashed crap all the newbie losers are selling in the WSO forum because someone told them it was like printing money. But when you happen to stumble over someone who doesn't suck, who has real information providing real value that shockingly enough costs real money, STFU about how you don't want to buy anything that isn't garbage.

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sureshots

11 years ago

Most of the time people give out $7 - $27 offers to up-sell people on something else. I hate hidden up-sells nothing pisses me off more than buying something and then being told - hey sure product A is great but if you buy Product A with Product B and Product C you'll make 10 times as much, then after you buy Product A,B and C products they offer you $2000+ coaching. This makes me want a refund as well if that's what your $7 offer did I can see why some people requested a refund.

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

Most of the time people give out $7 - $27 offers to up-sell people on something else.

Most of the time, people who complain about upsells are broke and lazy.

Every time they get $7, they run off and buy a product.

Then they read the part where it says "you need to do some work" and they throw it away.

After doing this enough times, they begin to suspect that the $7 product is just a trick and the real secrets are in the $47 upsell. Or the $197 membership site. Or the $1997 coaching.

But they don't have that kind of money, because every time they get $7 they run off and buy a product.

Which is where they shove their head right up their arse and start blaming the product creator for not putting the real secrets in the $7 products.

But we did. It's called "you need to do some work." And if you did it, you'd have the money for the upsells.

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Most of the time, people who complain about upsells are broke and lazy.

Every time they get $7, they run off and buy a product.

Then they read the part where it says "you need to do some work" and they throw it away.

After doing this enough times, they begin to suspect that the $7 product is just a trick and the real secrets are in the $47 upsell. Or the $197 membership site. Or the $1997 coaching.

But they don't have that kind of money, because every time they get $7 they run off and buy a product.

Which is where they shove their head right up their arse and start blaming the product creator for not putting the real secrets in the $7 products.

But we did. It's called "you need to do some work." And if you did it, you'd have the money for the upsells.

Interesting point, but it's a very narrow perspective why wouldn't the seller just tell the customer upfront? What's the need for the hidden up-sell? Also you have to remember that clickbank cracked down on hidden up-sells mainly because most of them didn't provide any value.

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

why wouldn't the seller just tell the customer upfront?

Because when we do, they don't buy anything.

If I put an upsell behind my product, people buy both of them. More people buy the front end product than buy the upsell, but I make sales on both.

If I put two buy buttons on the sales page, one for the main product and one for the upsell, nobody buys squat.

And sometimes I get email complaining that I said it was $17 but they clicked the buy button and it was $47. Because they clicked the upsell button, not the main button.

And sometimes when I tell them that, they get mad because they thought the upsell was a free bonus to the $17 product.

But if they click a "buy for $17" button and I say "buy more for $47?" - they understand what's going on.

I'm not trying to trick you, or fool you, or manipulate you with some dastardly scheme. I'm trying to make things easy for you, because apparently TWO BUTTONS is too hard.

And yes, I know you're probably smarter than that. But some customers are just

and it can't be helped.

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Because when we do, they don't buy anything.

If I put an upsell behind my product, people buy both of them. More people buy the front end product than buy the upsell, but I make sales on both.

If I put two buy buttons on the sales page, one for the main product and one for the upsell, nobody buys squat.

And sometimes I get email complaining that I said it was $17 but they clicked the buy button and it was $47. Because they clicked the upsell button, not the main button.

And sometimes when I tell them that, they get mad because they thought the upsell was a free bonus to the $17 product.

But if they click a "buy for $17" button and I say "buy more for $47?" - they understand what's going on.

I'm not trying to trick you, or fool you, or manipulate you with some dastardly scheme. I'm trying to make things easy for you, because apparently TWO BUTTONS is too hard.

And yes, I know you're probably smarter than that. But some customers are just

and it can't be helped.

I disagree with the above statement completely why don't you just sell the whole package for 1 price. There's no confusion there?

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WillR 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

I disagree with the above statement completely why don't you just sell the whole package for 1 price. There's no confusion there?

Haha. You have a good point. ZING!!!!!
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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

why don't you just sell the whole package for 1 price.

I do. It's $47. What part of that did you not understand?

Of course, if you don't have $47, I have a smaller package for $17. Or would you rather have nothing?

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I do. It's $47. What part of that did you not understand?

Of course, if you don't have $47, I have a smaller package for $17. Or would you rather have nothing?

CDarklock you're horrible dude.

You remind of a used car sales man that had too much to drink!

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

CDarklock you're horrible dude.

You remind of a used car sales man that had too much to drink!

What exactly is horrible about having two products and giving a discount if you buy both?

I mean, if you just want one of them, you can buy just that one.

And if you want them both, I'll give you a discount.

How is that horrible? Because I don't make you choose on the main sales page, and instead ask if you want a discount on both with an upsell?

I mean, WTF.

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

What exactly is horrible about having two products and giving a discount if you buy both?

I mean, if you just want one of them, you can buy just that one.

And if you want them both, I'll give you a discount.

How is that horrible? Because I don't make you choose on the main sales page, and instead ask if you want a discount on both with an upsell?

I mean, WTF.

If you already know my answer why ask the question? Now I would like you to explain to me why you don't put the two products on the main sales page?

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Matt Bard

11 years ago

[DELETED]

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

I don't want to put words in Caliban's mouth but his way makes sense to me.
Because a customer is more valuable than the $47.

The $47 sale is what I would start out seeking but if that doesn't happen I would like to have another shot at that person becoming a customer.

The lifetime value of a customer is a lot more than just one transaction.

I appreciate the reply Matt even though my question wasn't directed at you. I understand that this hidden up-sell thing is deep rooted in the minds of most internet marketers, However I feel as though hidden up-sells are the problem in Internet Marketing.

If you want $47 for something I think it's better to charge $47. On the sales page tell the customer look this is what you get $47 take or leave it and in your sales presentation explain the benefits they'll get for your product. After the sale is complete do your best to capture that customers email address and then contact them with other offers that relate to your $47 product.

That's what I do and I've been working from home full time without any WSO offers or over hyped launches! Customers from my perspective good or bad need to be treated with more respect. I typically focus my attention on "niches" so I don't get that many bad customers but when I do it's usually just a misunderstanding and if it's within 60 days I'll issue refunds.

In response to "The lifetime value of a customer is a lot more than just one transaction." If you really believe that why start off the business transaction with dishonesty?:confused:

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Matt Bard

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

I understand that this hidden up-sell thing is deep rooted in the minds of most internet marketers, However I feel as though hidden up-sells are the problem in Internet Marketing.

No that isn't what I meant.

I thought that Caliban was selling a product for $47 and then offering a discounted price on the same product.

Clearly, I didn't read all of his posts (which is a mistake when it comes to Caliban because you can rarely do a quick scan of his posts and get the whole picture) so I went back and read his posts rather than scan.

What I meant was that it is not uncommon for businesses to offer a discounted product when there is a possible issue with the original price.

My point was that a customer is more valuable over the long run as compared to a one time transaction.

If I am trying to sell you an apple for $1 and you pass on that, I might offer to sell it to you for .50 just to have you as a customer.

Obviously $1 is more than .50 but if you continue to come and buy apples from me for months or years from now, I am making much more than the original dollar.

I wasn't talking about up-sells. I was talking about discounts in order to convert you into a customer.

Big difference and that's why I deleted the post. Because I realized that you and Caliban were not talking about that.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

If I am trying to sell you an apple for $1 and you pass on that, I might offer to sell it to you for .50 just to have you as a customer.

Obviously $1 is more than .50 but if you continue to come and buy apples from me for months or years from now, I am making much more than the original dollar.

This is a wrong concept also right along with wrong concept of upsells...

Then sell the damn apple for .50 all the time. this is not a flea market wheeler dealer...

apple 1.00 with free Caramel dip

Upsells came about with super size it fad... they had the right concept... sell the main item for the high price and the upsell was cheap price...

In IM everyone has it wrong sell the item for 7.00 then a higher upsell... this is totally wrong...

You need to sell the product for 47.00 then on the upsell if you have one sell it for 7.00 more...

Marketing 101

In marketing you never lower the price... (Yes you can run a sale once in a while)

You don't lower the price you add more value and keep the same price...

Take pizza little Caesars they hurt them self so bad and now can't raise the price... we just had one go out of business they started selling them for 5.50
no one bought them...

cottage inn dropped there price to 4.50 did not do them any good.

I had my pizza at 5.99 and you got free bread sticks... So I made the same pizza as the others but at 5.99 a buck more and gave more value with the free bread sticks. and sold 3 times more than when I tried selling at 5.00.

up front give the customer the value... then if you want to have a little upsell ask would you like some extra dippin sauce for .50 now I just got 6.50 for adding .35 cents of bread sticks and sauce.

Richard

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Matt Bard

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

This is a wrong concept also right along with wrong concept of upsells...

Then sell the damn apple for .50 all the time. this is not a flea market wheeler dealer...

I never said that an up-sell should be higher than the original product so I don't know where you got that idea.

Why not "flea market wheeler dealer" if that's the way I want to sell something.
Would you rather have your apple sitting there in the basket with the $1 price tag still on it or would you rather have a customer that you spent .50 on?

Knowing that the lifetime value of a customer is far more valuable than .50, why would you not try?

Is it because the whole idea of the "flea market wheeler dealer" is not appealing to you?
I can understand that if you are trying to brand an image but if that's not what you are doing, then what is wrong with a discount in order to gain a customer?

Discounts convert prospects that are having a hard time with the price and there is nothing wrong with that.

When I called Comcast last year to cancel my account they asked me why. I told them I could get a better deal from ATT. They offered a big discount to keep me.

I guess Comcast wasn't worried about coming off as some "flea market dealer".

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

I never said that an up-sell should be higher than the original product so I don't know where you got that idea.

Why not "flea market wheeler dealer" if that's the way I want to sell something.

Would you rather have your apple sitting there in the basket with the $1 price tag still on it or would you rather have a customer that you spent .50 on?

Knowing that the lifetime value of a customer is far more valuable than .50, why would you not try?

Is it because the whole idea of the "flea market wheeler dealer" is not appealing to you?

I can understand that if you are trying to brand an image but if that's not what you are doing, then what is wrong with a discount in order to gain a customer?

Discounts convert prospects that are having a hard time with the price and there is nothing wrong with that.

When I called Comcast last year to cancel my account they asked me why. I told them I could get a better deal from ATT. They offered a big discount to keep me.

I guess Comcast wasn't worried about coming off as some "flea market dealer".

That comcast thing pisses me off... if you can give me a lower price then do it in the first place... Don't play games I will leave.

I had a bank I used from 18 to 26 or so... they had a fee 3.00 per month for checking account... I even moved miles away and still keep them... well one day the bank had a sign next to my house it said free checking account ok I will bite 3x12 36 bucks a year... so I signed up... I wen to my bank and said I'm closing my account they asked why... I said it's free at this bank and your 3.00 per month ...she said we can do it free also... To late !

If you can do it free than do it...

OK so you sold a apple to a guy for .50 he goes up to pay for the apple and the person behind him seen it was .50 but the lady is charged a dollar... now she is pissed off... Because people talk...

don't lower the price add value to it... and still make the buck.

so now you just said in public hey ask me for a discount because I will give you one...

Richard

Note: if buying something from Matt Maiden don't pay what his price tag is ask for a discount he will flea market wheeler deal the price. Got it

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

I had a bank I used from 18 to 26 or so...

Let me get this straight.

You made a deal with someone that you both kept for eight years and were completely satisfied with it.

Then a stranger offered you a better deal, and you dumped your existing bank to run off with the new one.

When they asked why, you told them about the better deal, and when they offered to match the deal... you refused, and ran off with this strange bank.

You don't seem to place much value on loyalty, familiarity, or honour.

And that's fine; I'm not calling your morals into question or anything. Most American consumers these days don't give a crap about those things.

But that's why all the vendors think they can treat you like garbage.

See, you're not coming back. They know it. You're going to start over every time. The modern consumer does not shop at Woolworth's or Penney's or even at Amazon.

He shops at Google.

So when you get to the sales page, you don't know who wrote the product. You don't know who's selling the product. You don't know a damn thing. The WHOIS for the domain is private. The name on the sales letter is fake. The picture is a stock photo. Even the signature is just typed in a public domain handwriting font.

Who's going to be held accountable for the sales process? The whole thing is fake. It's not like this name and face and signature are ever going on anything else. You don't care anyway. It's not like you get to the site and say "ooh, Harold Bernstein, he does good stuff." You don't know who Harold Bernstein is. You've never seen him before or bought anything he's done. So when you click "Buy Now," you're entering no-man's-land.

Because Harold Bernstein neither has, nor will develop, a reputation of any lasting merit. He's fake. Manfred Heisenbaum made him up in his basement one night. He bought the portrait on iStockPhoto and typed the signature in Microsoft Word and just made up a story he thought sounded good. But while Harold is a twenty-three year old former stockbroker in Chicago, Manfred Heisenbaum is a sixty-seven year old retired German Naval officer living in Switzerland.

So he doesn't give a crap whether his sales funnel upsets you. He only cares what puts more cash in his pocket. If Harold gets a reputation as a scammer or a lowlife, Manfred will just throw him out the window and make up someone else. New domain, new hosting, new autoresponder... that's what, $50? Pfft. One extra sale covers that.

So welcome to half a dozen upsells and exit pops galore. Because he doesn't care. It doesn't matter to him. If he does that utter monstrosity of a sales funnel at the bottom of my earlier post, he will never be held accountable for it. And when Harold gets that crap reputation, Manfred will probably sell Harold's list to Ukrainian spammers. Hey, it's not like he's making money from them any other way, right?

Loyalty used to mean something. When you stop displaying it as a consumer, vendors stop caring about preserving it. The growing movement toward sales processes that treat you like garbage... well, it's your fault, really. You've done it to yourself.

And incidentally, alienating the few people who actually don't think this way? Probably not the smartest idea.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Let me get this straight.

You made a deal with someone that you both kept for eight years and were completely satisfied with it.

Then a stranger offered you a better deal, and you dumped your existing bank to run off with the new one.

When they asked why, you told them about the better deal, and when they offered to match the deal... you refused, and ran off with this strange bank.

You don't seem to place much value on loyalty, familiarity, or honour.

The problem is they said we can offer you free checking.... but if I never asked they would not offer it to me, when they can already do free checking.

What they should have done is sent me a letter at the time they started to compete with the other banks with free checking, saying we appreciate your business and to better server you we are now removing the 3.00 charge for our loyal customers... thank you for your business.

If I would have never asked they would still be charging me the 3.00 while others are getting free checking...

If you can sell it for a lower price then do it all the time... you don't have to wait till i'm about to leave to make the better deal, just give me the better deal in the first place.

Comcast they can give you a lower price as you explained, so they ripped you off all the months for that extra money knowing they could give you the lower price....

There is a difference between making money and ripping someone off. Sell me the cable at a price you can make money... but don't over price it and then when I say I'm leaving you break down and give the lower price... just give me the lower price to start.

Example: I just bought new tires... So you check around who might have them on sale or the best deal... One place I went they gave me a price 379.00 (I'm just looking) I can make it 359.00 today... (I'm just looking)

About 1/3 mile down the road is a second tire place with a huge banner that says lowest price guarantee blah blah blah...

So I go in ask for the same tire and I quoit the banner out side you have the lowest price in town let me have it... and I said I was down the road already so what is your lowest price... he wanted the price I got down the road so he could beat it... I said not that is not fair anyone can beat a price you say you have the lowest price please give me the lowest price for this tire... After several attempts to get the price I had and he failed he gave me the price...

379.00 I asked is the the lowest price you can go he said why you have a lower one what is it I will beat it... That's not how it works... I want your lowest price... 379.00 that is your lowest YES sir... I then showed him the 359.00 and he said I can beat that... Too late! And by the way you need to take your banner down because your not the lowest price in town... I left.

So anyways a week later no tires yet... I'm in another city and on this road they have 3 tire place so I start again... the same two companies as above and a 3rd one... So I get a estament for the lowest banner place... said the same thing I need the lowest price for the tires.. same as above not fair to just beat the price but I want the lowest price like your sign says...

Same tires same store just diff city... lowest price... 280.00 out the door. WOW alright....

Went to the tire place never been to yet... lowest price 329.00 Better than the other city but not the best.

So I went next door same store as the first one I got the price 359.00 at in the other city... Said the same thing I want these tires...

Lowest price without seeing any other prices... 260.00 out the door.. I'm good with that... Sold

Give me the lowest price up front not some pop up with 10.00 off... because that just pisses me off and I don't buy at all from you.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

don't over price it and then when I say I'm leaving you break down and give the lower price

Imagine that I have a product I buy for $10. You ask me if you can buy it. What price should I charge?

a) $10, because that is what I paid for it.
b) $13, because a 30% profit is reasonable.
c) $13 for strangers but $10 for friends, because relationships matter.
d) Whatever I can get.

If you answered anything except (d), you are not really a capitalist. That doesn't make you a communist or anything, it just means you're somewhere else on the continuum where you think there's a "fair" price for something.

The cost of anything is what you give up to get it.

The value of anything is what others will give up to get it.

These things change. When you made the deal with your bank, you would give up $3 a month to get checking. For eight years, you were happy to give up $3 a month for checking. Now you're not happy. The market has changed. You are no longer willing to give up $3 a month for checking, so they reduce the cost to what you are willing to give up.

This is called game theory. It's basic microeconomics. I recommend reading Mankiw's text on the subject. If you do not have a basic understanding of economics, you are unqualified to run a business.

Doesn't mean you can't do it, but you'll do a crap job and not understand why.

So anyways a week later no tires yet... I'm in another city and on this road they have 3 tire place so I start again...

I'm sorry, HOW much time have you spent on this?

You're going to get, at most, about 20% off on these tyres. That's roughly $75.

So...

9 * $75 = 675 minutes = 11.25 hours

Just sayin'.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Imagine that I have a product I buy for $10. You ask me if you can buy it. What price should I charge?

a) $10, because that is what I paid for it.
b) $13, because a 30% profit is reasonable.
c) $13 for strangers but $10 for friends, because relationships matter.
d) Whatever I can get.

I would just go to the store you bought it for 10.00...

I'm sorry, HOW much time have you spent on this?

You're going to get, at most, about 20% off on these tyres. That's roughly $75.

In city one
I spent a 10 minutes getting the price 359.00 the second tire store you can see from the first on so 10 min getting the second price 379.00

I was in city two
Spent 10 minutes third place price (Same company as 379.00 ) 280.00 here
Spent 10 minutes fourth place (same company as 359.00) but 260.00

So 260.00 out the door it saved me over the original 379.00 to start things off with...

Saved me 119.00 for a place I was driving by anyways.

The same company in a city less than 20 minutes away was 119.00 more...
they are company stores.

About the bank and the 3.00... I was young and did not know better...

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

I would just go to the store you bought it for 10.00...

You're saying that if I buy something for $10, even if I offer to sell it to you for $10, you would actually rather go find the place I bought it and buy it from them for $10.

You would rather pay $10 and go somewhere else.

Not because I'm ripping you off or overcharging you, but because... well, apparently because you're a jerk. You want something, I've got it, and you won't buy it from me because you'd rather pay someone else.

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Brenden Clerget

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You're saying that if I buy something for $10, even if I offer to sell it to you for $10, you would actually rather go find the place I bought it and buy it from them for $10.

You would rather pay $10 and go somewhere else.

Not because I'm ripping you off or overcharging you, but because... well, apparently because you're a jerk. You want something, I've got it, and you won't buy it from me because you'd rather pay someone else.

I bet if you charged him $9.97 (from the posts I've read from him) he'd buy it from you. Even if he had to wait an extra hour to get it.

That's fair depreciation, .3%? Yeah I think so.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

I bet if you charged him $9.97 (from the posts I've read from him) he'd buy it from you. Even if he had to wait an extra hour to get it.

That's fair depreciation, .3%? Yeah I think so.

I'm in no hurry... I don't live to much by the fast food society.

Just because you have a banner out front of your store that says lowest price guaranteed... don't make me buy... as you seen they were not the lowest price.

I'm not a impulse buyer. 1 left or price goes up or last day for the sale.... Does not make me buy any sooner.

If you live your life like you don't need stuff then you save a lot of money by not buying crap.

If you're not buying crap you don't have to ask for a refund.

Richard

Stop making crap products! Then you don't have to worry about refund request.

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

I'm not a impulse buyer.

You're not a buyer at all. You're a shopper.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You're not a buyer at all. You're a shopper.

Show me something I can't live with out I will buy it.

Tires for the car saved 119.00 for few minutes of my time.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Show me something I can't live with out I will buy it.

But propose that I have something you want, and you would rather go get it where I got it than buy it from me.

Ask what would be a fair price for me to charge, and you won't answer the question.

Because you don't want a fair price. You want the best price. That matters more to you than your time or your money: even if I'm charging the same thing I paid for it, you would rather get it where I got it.

Not because the price is lower. But because it's the price I paid for it, at the place I paid it.

And that makes you every bit as good as me, where buying it from me - even at the same price I paid - inherently recognises that I have done something for you.

None of this is about you paying the best price. It is about making sure I'm not better than you, because you are insecure. It is pointless crap to bolster your own flagging self-esteem through tautology. Even if the price you pay is the same, it is better because you did not pay me.

You're a sad individual.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

But propose that I have something you want, and you would rather go get it where I got it than buy it from me.

I did not say that! Now your making something up by saying (propose)

OK let's Propose Yes I would buy it who would not.

Ask what would be a fair price for me to charge, and you won't answer the question.

Because you don't want a fair price. You want the best price. That matters more to you than your time or your money: even if I'm charging the same thing I paid for it, you would rather get it where I got it.

Wrong I would just buy it from you. I was not Proposing earlier.

I'm already married.

Not because the price is lower. But because it's the price I paid for it, at the place I paid it.

And that makes you every bit as good as me, where buying it from me - even at the same price I paid - inherently recognises that I have done something for you.

Lets propose I'm over and my wireless mouse broke and you had one still in the package and you said here I have this extra one you can have it. And you will not take any money from me.

Before I leave I would toss the money on your desk.

None of this is about you paying the best price.

It's about the banner they have Lowest price guarantee And I got the price from them and it was not the lowest.

If your going to say your the lowest then you better be.

We are equal you're not better than me, I'm not better than you.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

I did not say that! Now your making something up

Am I, now?

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Imagine that I have a product I buy for $10. You ask me if you can buy it. What price should I charge?

Originally Posted by RichardDean

I would just go to the store you bought it for 10.00

That looks an awful lot like what I said.

What you are actually doing here is avoiding the question of "what is a fair price?" because you don't actually care.

It's about the banner they have Lowest price guarantee And I got the price from them and it was not the lowest.

And this surprises you... why?

If I put up a banner that says "I have the lowest price," any idiot can send someone into my store and find out my price, then charge a lower one. He doesn't have to tell me about it, so I don't know it. If you walk up to me and ask what my price is, I won't give you the lowest price because I cannot possibly know what the lowest price is.

That's why the price is guaranteed. If you find a lower price, I'll give you that same price. That's all I can do. You are expecting people to do the impossible, and when they can't do it, you take your business elsewhere.

That doesn't make you smart, clever, or principled. It makes you a doucheball.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Am I, now?
What you are actually doing here is avoiding the question of "what is a fair price?" because you don't actually care.

A fair price is what you feel it takes to pay the bills while not ripping someone off.

There is a deference between making money and ripping someone off.

did I answer your question? I'm not trying to avoid it I guess Sorry over looked what you really wanted a answer too.

If I put up a banner that says "I have the lowest price," any idiot can send someone into my store and find out my price, then charge a lower one. He doesn't have to tell me about it, so I don't know it. If you walk up to me and ask what my price is, I won't give you the lowest price because I cannot possibly know what the lowest price is.

That's why the price is guaranteed. If you find a lower price, I'll give you that same price. That's all I can do. You are expecting people to do the impossible, and when they can't do it, you take your business elsewhere.

That doesn't make you smart, clever, or principled. It makes you a doucheball.

This goes to the answer above in price.

lets say a tire cost 30.00 and you need to mark it up 10.00 to cover your cost of doing business. So you tell your employees that the bottom line price is 40.00 per tire. Lets say you have a banner that says lowest price guarantee in town... But the guy down the road selling the same tire but his cost of business is 5.00 per tire.

The 40.00 guy should know his competitors prices if he is going to make that claim lowest in town.

In this case he was not the lowest so to say he is is a lie. Not my fault he fell short in making sure he really is the lowest. He should take the sign down
because he is not the lowest in town.

Same way people over hype/lie on sales letters.

You been around long enough to see the post for help here at the WF and we see there website and the headline says something like

How to make 15,000 a month online with 20 min work.

And they ask how they can make money online.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

A fair price is what you feel it takes to pay the bills while not ripping someone off.

But that's not what I asked you. I asked you what I should charge.

There is a deference between making money and ripping someone off.

And I'm trying to get an answer from you as to what that difference is.

I paid $10 for it. You want to buy it. Where does the price change from making money to ripping you off? Is it just a question of what I feel about it? I feel like ordering a pizza. Is it okay to charge you $25 for this product?

Not my fault he fell short in making sure he really is the lowest.

Not his fault the competition didn't tell him their prices. What, he should spy on them?

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

But that's not what I asked you. I asked you what I should charge.

And I'm trying to get an answer from you as to what that difference is.

I paid $10 for it. You want to buy it. Where does the price change from making money to ripping you off? Is it just a question of what I feel about it? I feel like ordering a pizza. Is it okay to charge you $25 for this product?

You paid 10.00 you sell it for what you want so you make money to pay your bills... if it takes 1.00 mark up then 11.00 and so on... that you have to fig out what it takes.

It changes for me at a price I feel is out of reason. 10.00 item you have and you are telling me 100.00 and it can be found every place else for 11.00 then to me that is too much and I would say to myself (this guy is ripping people off) and say out loud ok I will keep you in mind thanks for letting me know your price.

If you had a banner that said lowest price in town and said 100.00 when I just got a price from the guy next door for 11.00, I might say out loud your not the lowest in town and then walk out the door and buy the 11.00 one.

The 25.00 pizza sure if that is what it takes to cover your bills. if it takes 25.00 not a good ideal to sell it for 5.00 is it.

Not his fault the competition didn't tell him their prices. What, he should spy on them?

You got it... you need to know what your competition is doing at all times.

Richard

did I answer it for you?

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Okay, so let's sum up.

Q: What's the difference between making money and ripping people off?

A: What you want, you have to figure it out, it changes, if that is what it takes.

Translation: DERP

you need to know what your competition is doing at all times.

You need to get a damn clue. You don't know the first thing about running a business.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Okay, so let's sum up.

Q: What's the difference between making money and ripping people off?

A: What you want, you have to figure it out, it changes, if that is what it takes.

Translation: DERP

You need to get a damn clue. You don't know the first thing about running a business.

Yes, What you want
it's your item you sell it for what you want? No one would stop you from selling it for any price you want would they?

Yes, you have to figure it out
It's your item sell it for what ever you need to!

No clue what this is, it changes
no answer I can give here

Yes, if that is what it takes
do what it takes to make you happy with the profits, you're not going to sell it for less than what you paid you can it is yours do what you want with it.

Richard Dean... you need to know what your competition is doing at all times.

CDarklock ... You need to get a damn clue. You don't know the first thing about running a business.

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

No one would stop you from selling it for any price you want would they?

You keep saying not to rip people off. How do I know if I am ripping people off? I keep asking you what that means, and you're telling me to charge whatever I want.

Then you complain that a $7 product didn't give you enough details about how to make $20k with flyers. So what's the problem? The vendor wanted $7 for it. He charged $7. You paid $7. If he can charge whatever he wants, why are you complaining?

You say not to put out crap. Why is that product crap?

You call it "theory." Why is theory crap?

And then you say everyone needs to know what everyone else is doing at all times.

So let's take those three tyre stores.

Each of them can sell you any one of a thousand different products.

And you say all three of those stores should know what the other two are charging for each and every one of those products at all times.

If one of them says "I think I will drop the price of my cherry-scented pimp oil from $3.50 an ounce to $2.75 an ounce," you think it is somehow a failure if the other two do not find out about this and alter their own prices.

Meanwhile, if the one that just dropped his price says "cheapest pimp oil in town," but then one of the other two drops his price to $2.50 an ounce... you call the first one a liar, and want him to take down any and all signs that say this.

That is so incredibly stupid, I don't even.

You cannot possibly be a successful business owner with twenty years experience, as you've claimed. I call Bravo Sierra on the whole thing. You may have bought yourself a business licence and even hung it up somewhere, but there is no way in hell you have actually operated any kind of professional venture that matters.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You keep saying not to rip people off. How do I know if I am ripping people off? I keep asking you what that means, and you're telling me to charge whatever I want.

You tell me who besides you can tell you what to sell a item you have.

Yes it is your item, you are the final person who controls what price you put on it...

correct! Not one person on earth can tell you besides you. Your in control of your own thoughts and actions.

What does it mean: it means different things for different people. I told you above in one of the post go re read it. Let me know if you need it pointed out to you again.

Then you complain that a $7 product didn't give you enough details about how to make $20k with flyers. So what's the problem? The vendor wanted $7 for it. He charged $7. You paid $7. If he can charge whatever he wants, why are you complaining?

You say not to put out crap. Why is that product crap?

You call it "theory." Why is theory crap?

And then you say everyone needs to know what everyone else is doing at all times.

So let's take those three tyre stores.

Each of them can sell you any one of a thousand different products.

And you say all three of those stores should know what the other two are charging for each and every one of those products at all times.

If one of them says "I think I will drop the price of my cherry-scented pimp oil from $3.50 an ounce to $2.75 an ounce," you think it is somehow a failure if the other two do not find out about this and alter their own prices.

Meanwhile, if the one that just dropped his price says "cheapest pimp oil in town," but then one of the other two drops his price to $2.50 an ounce... you call the first one a liar, and want him to take down any and all signs that say this.

That is so incredibly stupid, I don't even.

No clue what your trying to say... But thanks for taking the time... it looks like your taking parts of things and half assing it. Kinda like that 7 dollar product was done.

You cannot possibly be a successful business owner with twenty years experience, as you've claimed. I call Bravo Sierra on the whole thing. You may have bought yourself a business licence and even hung it up somewhere, but there is no way in hell you have actually operated any kind of professional venture that matters.

You have your opinion good for you.
Any time you want to put your portfolio up against mine go for it.

Richard
We better hurry up the weekend is almost over and you have to check back in.

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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

No clue what your trying to say...

I've noticed.

Any time you want to put your portfolio up against mine go for it.

Any time you want to explain how you put knowledge and experience in a portfolio, go for it.
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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Stop making crap products! Then you don't have to worry about refund request.

I wish things were so black and white. This response is incredibly naive.

What is a crap product?

What if one group loves it and one group hates it? Which group decided it is crap?

People, in this market, are notorious for refunding even when the product is high quality. They want it for free, not because it is a crap product.

People refund because they are lazy, not necessarily because the product doesn't work.

People refund because they ran out of money to pay monthly bills and need the cash.

Yes, they also refund because the product is a piece of crap, the sales page over hyped and didn't deliver.

This isn't a black and white issue yet you are trying to make it into one.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I wish things were so black and white. This response is incredibly naive.

What is a crap product?

What if one group loves it and one group hates it? Which group decided it is crap?

People, in this market, our notorious for refunding even when the product is high quality. They want it for free, not because it is a crap product.

People refund because they are lazy, not necessarily because the product doesn't work.

People refund because they ran out of money to pay monthly bills and need to cash.

Yes, they also refund because the product is a piece of crap, the sales page over hyped and didn't deliver.

This isn't a black and white issue yet you are trying to make it into one.

Yes I agree we have a problem...

WSO got lots of great reviews... Make 20,000.00 in a month only 7 bucks.

Ideal get businesses to take ads out on flyers.. Print 20,000 flyers and hand them out on the street. And you might make 20,000 in a month.

Yes it said might... No even realistic do you know how much 20,000 flyers will cost? Do you know how long it will take to pass out 20 thousand flyers.

How this got even one good review beats me.

To each their own, to a noob this must be great stuff. More power to you if you want to go with this.

Everyone will have their own opinion I agree with that.

Richard

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Yes I agree we have a problem...

WSO got lots of great reviews... Make 20,000.00 in a month only 7 bucks.

Ideal get businesses to take ads out on flyers.. Print 20,000 flyers and hand them out on the street. And you might make 20,000 in a month.

Yes it said might... No even realistic do you know how much 20,000 flyers will cost? Do you know how long it will take to pass out 20 thousand flyers.

How this got even one good review beats me.

To each their own, to a noob this must be great stuff. More power to you if you want to go with this.

Everyone will have their own opinion I agree with that.

Richard

So, you're not interested in the idea (or doing the work) and that makes it crap? Did you try it to see if it works?

You should be able to make a fortune with flyers since you are all over town looking for the best deals. :p

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

So, you're not interested in the idea (or doing the work) and that makes it crap? Did you try it to see if it works?

You should be able to make a fortune with flyers since you are all over town looking for the best deals. :p

You know the ideal I will leave it for you...

20,000 flyers printed cost is next day flyers 1649.00

Now your selling a 7.00 theory to people who are looking for a magic button...
They had to ask for a refund from the last $7 WSO to buy this one... do you think they have 1649.00?

You look like you're in shape so it would be a good walk for you to get rid of 20,000 flyers.

The tire places are on the same road you can see all three from any one of the driveways you stand in... matter of fact two are side by side no need to even leave one when you can walk less than 20 yards from one door to the other.

Richard

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

You know the ideal I will leave it for you...

20,000 flyers printed cost is next day flyers 1649.00

Now your selling a 7.00 theory to people who are looking for a magic button...
They had to ask for a refund from the last $7 WSO to buy this one... do you think they have 1649.00?

You look like you're in shape so it would be a good walk for you to get rid of 20,000 flyers.

The tire places are on the same road you can see all three from any one of the driveways you stand in... matter of fact two are side by side no need to even leave one when you can walk less than 20 yards from one door to the other.

Richard

Richard, how do you know the product, in question, was based on theory?

Richard, I have sold $7 items on this forum. I also sold $1500 items to some of those people that purchased the $7 item.

So, yeah, I don't think we can say who can afford what based on purchasing a $7 item.

Now, let's actually use our noggin a little here.

You are saying that you have to print out all 20k flyers at once?

No one could actually print out 100, 500 or 1k flyers first and reinvest their profits into other flyers?

I love walking. I also have no problem hiring others to hand out flyers for me. I could reinvest my money to hire high school kids to hit the parking lots.

Black and white...

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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

They had to ask for a refund from the last $7 WSO to buy this one... do you think they have 1649.00?

Probably not.

But would you say that they could probably make $1,649 by printing and distributing 1,649 flyers?

That would cost about $136.

But you know, they probably don't have that, either.

Hmm.

So what if they printed 136 flyers?!

That would be... about $12.

Oh, dammit, they probably don't have that either.

Hey, what if they did something on fiverr? $12 is just four fiverr gigs.

Then they could print 136 flyers.

And if they don't make $136, they're only out $12.

And do you know what else?

If you can't think like this, maybe you don't get to own your own business.
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J Bold

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

You know the ideal I will leave it for you...

20,000 flyers printed cost is next day flyers 1649.00

Now your selling a 7.00 theory to people who are looking for a magic button...
They had to ask for a refund from the last $7 WSO to buy this one... do you think they have 1649.00?

You look like you're in shape so it would be a good walk for you to get rid of 20,000 flyers.

The tire places are on the same road you can see all three from any one of the driveways you stand in... matter of fact two are side by side no need to even leave one when you can walk less than 20 yards from one door to the other.

Richard

It sounds like you are talking about a product that said to sell ad space FIRST, and then print the flyers, right?

So the printing wouldn't be an issue. If you could sell $5000-$10,000 worth of ad space, you'd then have the money to print and deliver the flyers, no?

How could you print out a bunch of flyers if you had no ads to print on them?

If you're talking about a different concept then I'm off base, but based on what you said, I think I'm not.

I don't know about that particular WSO but there is one guy who started a great thread in the offline forum who showed everyone how he does great with this business model, but he uses the post office for delivery rather than handing them out or personally delivering them to houses.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by redicelander

but he uses the post office for delivery rather than handing them out or personally delivering them to houses.

Lots of them one called money mailer I know the guy who does it in my area.

It's the way it was put and with terms like (Might make) just theory.

But was not sold as a theory and over hyped...

It did not sound like they did it just trying to make a fast buck selling a theory.

I can make a new guide everyday like that. if I wanted to play the game of hope people are to lazy to ask for a refund.

But when they ask for the refund don't bitch about it.

Richard

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Richard, how do you know the product, in question, was based on theory?

You are saying that you have to print out all 20k flyers at once?

No one could actually print out 100, 500 or 1k flyers first and reinvest their profits into other flyers?

I love walking. I also have no problem hiring others to hand out flyers for me. I could reinvest my money to hire high school kids to hit the parking lots.

Black and white...

I read it and how it came across. (theory)

did not even go in that kind of detail... small printings... Nope

Your selling a 20,000 printing to the customer to sound big I guess

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Probably not.

But would you say that they could probably make $1,649 by printing and distributing 1,649 flyers?

That would cost about $136.

But you know, they probably don't have that, either.

Hmm.

So what if they printed 136 flyers?!

That would be... about $12.

Oh, dammit, they probably don't have that either.

Hey, what if they did something on fiverr? $12 is just four fiverr gigs.

Then they could print 136 flyers.

And if they don't make $136, they're only out $12.

And do you know what else?

If you can't think like this, maybe you don't get to own your own business.

Same answer as above

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Yes there is. Get back to us when you learn the difference between them, because it's clear you don't know at this point.

Read one of my post to answer CDarklock question you will see.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

did not even go in that kind of detail...

IT WAS SEVEN DOLLARS.

See thread title:

Why do people think they own you for $7?

Seriously, you are complaining that you are too stupid to solve your own problem and the vendor didn't solve it for you after you gave him $7.

If you want your problems solved for you, then you pay more than $7.

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escribe

11 years ago

Regardless of the price of the product, the customer just wants to be attended to in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps an automated alert for customer support issues would make customers feel more at ease. I can understand both sides on this issue. Unfortunately the scam artists ruin it for legit IM'rs.

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eshoppingez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by escribe

Regardless of the price of the product, the customer just wants to be attended to in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps an automated alert for customer support issues would make customers feel more at ease. I can understand both sides on this issue. Unfortunately the scam artists ruin it for legit IM'rs.

Yes, that's a good idea. Getting some kind of response will hold off the buyers, and make sure they don't get pissed off.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

IT WAS SEVEN DOLLARS.

See thread title:

Why do people think they own you for $7?

Seriously, you are complaining that you are too stupid to solve your own problem and the vendor didn't solve it for you after you gave him $7.

If you want your problems solved for you, then you pay more than $7.

Then write the sales page for a 7 dollar item not a 20,000 dollar item?

Be honest like the homeless guy with the sign that tells the truth
I'm going to buy beer with the money

I don't think you owe me but when a refund comes to your inbox don't bitch.
Yes I need to give at least 48 to 72 hours to hear about the refund.

Richard

Does not matter the price, always give your best work.

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You're saying that if I buy something for $10, even if I offer to sell it to you for $10, you would actually rather go find the place I bought it and buy it from them for $10.

You would rather pay $10 and go somewhere else.

Not because I'm ripping you off or overcharging you, but because... well, apparently because you're a jerk. You want something, I've got it, and you won't buy it from me because you'd rather pay someone else.

If I bought it from you then you would not have one.. and we all know you need something.

Richard

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Black Hat Cat Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

There is a difference between making money and ripping someone off.

Richard

Yes there is. Get back to us when you learn the difference between them, because it's clear you don't know at this point.
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- Tom B Banned 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat
  
  Yes there is. Get back to us when you learn the difference between them, because it's clear you don't know at this point.
  
  I think that is all too common in this market.
  
  People don't like the idea or plan behind the product and label it as a scam. All too often, they never tried it out or even read the whole course.
  
  I am not saying there aren't scams out there. I am just saying based on what Richard has written, there is no way it can be claimed as a scam.
  
  Maybe a little overly hyped based on the possible 20k monthly income claim.
  
  Now Richard is fine in saying the product wasn't worth $7 to him because he doesn't want the additional expenses and the time required.
  
  Labeling it a scam is pretty sad unless there is proof that hasn't been posted.
  
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Matt Bard

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

In response to "The lifetime value of a customer is a lot more than just one transaction." If you really believe that why start off the business transaction with dishonesty?:confused:

Also, I never said anything about starting off in a dishonest way.

I don't know what your definition of a "hidden up-sell" is, but how do you feel when you go to McDonalds and after ordering they ask you if you would like to Supersize it?

There is nothing wrong with up-sells.

Now if you are talking about people selling you what you believe to be is a complete package and then they have the up-sell telling you that you need it to make the original work, then there is a problem.

But If you get the complete report that outlines how to make a Facebook Fan Page and then the up-sell is that for another $27 you can have it done for you, that is not dishonest.

Have you ever bought anything and been asked if you wanted to buy an extended warranty?

That's an up-sell.

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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

I don't know what your definition of a "hidden up-sell" is

I believe he's talking about the upsell page where it's not immediately obvious how to say "no" to the added cost. In many cases, this is the customer not paying attention, but I have seen "No thanks" links in light grey six point font which is just plain scummy.

He may also be talking about post-pay upsells. Some vendors put the upsell after the payment process, then shove another sales page in your face instead of taking you to your download.

The problem with all the options we have on the internet with our sales funnels is that some people abuse them. We hear a lot about "upsell hell," where there's one upsell after another until you say "no" and then you get A DOWNSELL because the vendor just plain doesn't get it. Sometimes we get exit pops seven and eight in a row.

These things are so annoying they border on the obscene, and I thoroughly agree we should be burning people who do that crap at the stake.

But they are not the norm.

To me, an upsell looks like this:

It does NOT look like this:

I think a lot of people get far too excited about the way you can do "infinite upsells" on the internet. But the ability to make that hideous monstrosity on the bottom does not mean you should never have an upsell. It just means you should be sane about it.
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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

If you already know my answer why ask the question?

Pointless hope that you might be smarter than that.

Now I would like you to explain to me why you don't put the two products on the main sales page?

Why? You didn't listen the first time.
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- sureshots 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Pointless hope that you might be smarter than that.
  
  Why? You didn't listen the first time.
  
  You clearly didn't listen to me the first time!
  
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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by sureshots

If you already know my answer why ask the question? Now I would like you to explain to me why you don't put the two products on the main sales page?

Back in the day that is how it was done... you would have the main product and then add bonus items on the same page and sell it for 97.00 for the whole package they get it all together in one shot... and we made thousands more money than we do now.

So bad choice to have made the norm in IM using the nickel and dime the customer and not giving everything up front... upsell crap

I can remember when my brother bought a new jeep they said for a extra $$$ do you want floor mats... are you kidding me he is speeding 20 grand and it does not come with floor mats... True story my friend.

Richard

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RichardDean

Back in the day that is how it was done... you would have the main product and then add bonus items on the same page and sell it for 97.00 for the whole package they get it all together in one shot...

And then you NEVER try to sell the customer ANYTHING else, right? Because you're DONE. You got your $97, and you didn't put the customer on a list, and you will NEVER EVER EVER try to sell ANYTHING ELSE to that customer EVER AGAIN. Right?

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And then you NEVER try to sell the customer ANYTHING else, right? Because you're DONE. You got your $97, and you didn't put the customer on a list, and you will NEVER EVER EVER try to sell ANYTHING ELSE to that customer EVER AGAIN. Right?

Get real you see I have been around for a long time.. and my post count is not 5000 it's because I'm busy doing... look at all the greats who make money we all have low post counts because we are doing it not talking about what could be...

lets lay it out I bet mine is bigger than yours. Both

Richard

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Anton Nadilo

11 years ago

I wonder if this problem is also linked to the issue of "serial refunders"? Has anyone ever split tested removing the guarantee entirely on a product less than 10 bucks....it would be interesting to see the results and not just sales but nett sales becuase that is the true measure and maybe even nett profit if you were somehow able to factor in the cost of labour to process all those refund....I have thought about having a refund standdown period e.g 7-10 days whereby they cannot request a refund until that period has expired...just some ideas floating around in my head...I woudl welcome any other thoughts people have about how we reduce or minimise to ever growing issue of refunds and serial refunders??

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sureshots

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Anton Nadilo

I wonder if this problem is also linked to the issue of "serial refunders"? Has anyone ever split tested removing the guarantee entirely on a product less than 10 bucks....it would be interesting to see the results and not just sales but nett sales becuase that is the true measure and maybe even nett profit if you were somehow able to factor in the cost of labour to process all those refund....I have thought about having a refund standdown period e.g 7-10 days whereby they cannot request a refund until that period has expired...just some ideas floating around in my head...I woudl welcome any other thoughts people have about how we reduce or minimise to ever growing issue of refunds and serial refunders??

Don't worry about Refunds concentrate on making great products that people want and also concentrate on expanding your business in way that allows you more free time to do the things you love to do. Refunds happen for a variety of reasons concentrate on making or improving on your products or services! If you worry about serial refunders it will be hard to concentrate on improving your business. My two cents!

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Anton Nadilo

11 years ago

There is a Warrior on here who does not offer a guarantee and clearly lays that out on the table however I do not believe that it would wash with PayPal should someone lodge a dispute. I cannot remember the Warriors name or "handle" but would welcome her posting her views on here if she sees this thread. Does anyone know her name??

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Anton Nadilo

There is a Warrior on here who does not offer a guarantee and clearly lays that out on the table however I do not believe that it would wash with PayPal should someone lodge a dispute. I cannot remember the Warriors name or "handle" but would welcome her posting her views on here if she sees this thread. Does anyone know her name??

I have several times not had a refund... if you can find my plugin sales generator WSO you can see I don't offer a refund, no need to if the product does what it says....

If you let the customer know upfront what they get and you deliver what you say there really is no need for a refund guarantee.

Richard

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stoltingmediagroup

11 years ago

@Brenden Clerget, It is normal that your company wishes to present itself as being a legitimate merchant with a good reputation online, and you as a person of course would want to be portrayed as being an all around good individual who is not out to scam anyone.

I feel the same way about myself as a person and about my company, and I think that everyone in here feels the same about their companies and themselves as individuals.

However, having been online and selling products for close to a decade now, and with 20 years of previous retail experience in various positions including manager, (notice I said retail, which can translate into daily abuse) I have seen it all, and learned that when it comes to customers, they will vent in anyway they feel like at the time, without considering the fact that another person with feelings is on the other end of the wind that they are blowing.

I have made an effort over the years to train my staff to understand that this customer might have either just lost their dog, cat, mom, partner, job, or whatever other issue a person might face, that turns them into a raging customer from hell.

And even though that does not give them the right to insult, make threats, or untrue statements, it will still happen at times. However, being in the business of selling, you (we all) need to accept this and learn not take things personal. The higher your sales volume, the more of this you will get, even if you sold bibles for a living.

From your post I sense that you felt personally attacked, and that the customer really did not know that yesterday you might have helped a little old lady across the street, and donated funds to poor children across the world.

So let me give you a refund department 101 lesson here...

After insulting you and your mom, still do whatever it takes to be their hero by doing something nice that they do not expect and totally blows them away.

Refund it, plus double the amount of refund, plus free product, and or whatever it takes so that they might spread the word about your superb customer service and post something nice about you online. (and possibly even apologize to you).

Because as of this point, If you simply just left it at the refund, and came here to share your experience of "how you feel about this", instead of damage control and making them feel better, you might have just left them to spread all kinds of stories about how they feel that you scammed them. (which we all of course know that you didn't).

Hope this helps.

Arnold Stolting.

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Lucy Writes

11 years ago

Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup

@Brenden Clerget, It is normal that your company wishes to present itself as being a legitimate merchant with a good reputation online, and you as a person of course would want to be portrayed as being an all around good individual who is not out to scam anyone.

I feel the same way about myself as a person and about my company, and I think that everyone in here feels the same about their companies and themselves as individuals.

However, having been online and selling products for close to a decade now, and with 20 years of previous retail experience in various positions including manager, (notice I said retail, which can translate into daily abuse) I have seen it all, and learned that when it comes to customers, they will vent in anyway they feel like at the time, without considering the fact that another person with feelings is on the other end of the wind that they are blowing.

I have made an effort over the years to train my staff to understand that this customer might have either just lost their dog, cat, mom, partner, job, or whatever other issue a person might face, that turns them into a raging customer from hell.

And even though that does not give them the right to insult, make threats, or untrue statements, it will still happen at times. However, being in the business of selling, you (we all) need to accept this and learn not take things personal. The higher your sales volume, the more of this you will get, even if you sold bibles for a living.

From your post I sense that you felt personally attacked, and that the customer really did not know that yesterday you might have helped a little old lady across the street, and donated funds to poor children across the world.

So let me give you a refund department 101 lesson here...

After insulting you and your mom, still do whatever it takes to be their hero by doing something nice that they do not expect and totally blows them away.

Refund it, plus double the amount of refund, plus free product, and or whatever it takes so that they might spread the word about your superb customer service and post something nice about you online. (and possibly even apologize to you).

Because as of this point, If you simply just left it at the refund, and came here to share your experience of "how you feel about this", instead of damage control and making them feel better, you might have just left them to spread all kinds of stories about how they feel that you scammed them. (which we all of course know that you didn't).

Hope this helps.

Arnold Stolting.

This is beautiful. It's a very spiritually-oriented way of doing business. It also follows the law of attraction to an extent (as well as the "turn the other cheek" concept). Treat someone as you would want to be treated, give them more than they expect, and be generous with them even when they're being a jerk to you, and you'll not only feel better about yourself, what you've done will come back to you ten-fold in other ways, be it in your business or personal life. You'll be surprised at the good things that will come to you from this kind of attitude and practice.

Thank you for this!

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Fraggler

11 years ago

Originally Posted by stoltingmediagroup

After insulting you and your mom, still do whatever it takes to be their hero by doing something nice that they do not expect and totally blows them away.

It's a shame this great post got burried up by all the I'm right; you're wrong banter.

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MP80

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

My main gripe is that why for $7, $9, even $17 or $27 do people think that they absolutely own your soul...

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

...At the end of the day, it really makes me want to quit WSOs, public launches, and the whole spiel all together and focus on expanding my offline client base instead of helping people to get to where I'm at in my business for literal pennies on the dollar

I hear you, and I'm not saying that I don't agree with you on some level, but how about looking at the bigger picture here?

Let's just say you sell 1000 copies of your WSO at $7, and make $7000.

And, for arguments sake, it takes you 40 (actual) hours to put together your product, and prepare it for sale.

Perhaps 90% of the customers who buy your WSO are going to have no problem with it at all, and you probably won't hear from them. For the other 10% let's say that you may have to provide 40 total hours of support.

So for 80 hours of your time you are receiving nearly ninety bucks an hour, every hour. Your customers are the ones who are paying you this $90 an hour, so don't you think it is worth your time to treat them [all] like gold?

Not to mention the goodwill that providing excellent support creates.

The internet is viral in nature, which can work either for you, or against you. So why not embrace it, and create a following of 'raving fans'... This will lead to more sales in the future, and an increased overall hourly rate.

Personally, I sometimes use the cheaper products as a test of someone's character, business practises, and ethics. If I have a question (and it doesn't happen often) and email you, your reply will determine whether or not I will spend more with you in the future. If I don't get a reply, then I will most probably never deal with you again.

For those who do respond in a kind and helpful manner I start to notice what else they are offering, and begin to spend more money with them. It is simply not true (not sure if it was mentioned in this thread) that those $7 customers don't ever spend more than $7.

Recently I sent an email asking for clarification on a few points in a fellow warrior's coaching offer (I was on his list and buying his products) and never heard back. I hadn't bought anything more than $5 - $10 from him previously, but I was testing the waters. Perhaps he thought it wasn't worth his time to reply, or I was just a tyre-kicker.

The fact of the matter is that not replying cost him [at least] $297; I actually had my finger on the button ready to go. Obviously he can afford to be throwing this kind of money away :p, but can you?

I tried the same with another warrior (let's just call her 'Jenny Dize', because that is her name

) and her response was excellent - above and beyond. I had actually even told her that I wasn't necessarily interested, just tyre-kicking.

Following her brilliant and helpful response, I signed up for her coaching immediately.

So all I am saying is to look at the bigger picture instead of keeping tabs on who gave you how much money, and what you should 'owe' them. It's kind of a selfish attitude, when you think about it, and not likely to win you any 'raving fans'.

Also agree with the comments to be a bit more selective with the market place that you use, and the prices that you charge, if you do not like the customers that you attract. For instance, if you were selling books on Amazon, then buyers would be unlikely to expect to have your personal contact details. (Although, anything's possible!

)

PS - I do share your view though, that it is never ok for people to be rude to you and/or treat you with a lack of respect, no matter what price they are paying!

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ExRat

11 years ago

Hi Brenden,

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

At the end of the day, it really makes me want to quit WSOs, public launches, and the whole spiel all together and focus on expanding my offline client base instead of helping people to get to where I'm at in my business for literal pennies on the dollar compared to the time, sweat, tears, stress and pain they'd go through learning it on their own.

You've just stated the answer to the problem. Focus on this avenue for a couple of months, then come back and compare the two models. If the answer isn't crystal clear, you're doing something wrong offline. Work out what that is and put it right.

As has been stated over and over here, people are going to be people and conducting transactions/relationships can be complicated and tiring. So what makes the difference? In my opinion, it's the level of compensation and the difference in communication when you are sitting across a table from someone in comparison to electronic communications in an 'anonymous' environment.

I'm happiest when I'm dealing with people who have a greater number of years of experience in a greater number of differing, 'real' business environments. I like dealing with people who have their feet on the ground, their goals firmly rooted in reality. Look around this forum and you'll see posts from people purporting to be in business, but occasionally the mask slips when they run off to ask Dad if they can use his paypal account, or to their 'real full-time job.'

No slight or offence intended to anyone (some youngsters and 'full-time workers/part time business-people' are more successful than some full-time business-people), but most full-time entrepreneurs I deal with are a different breed, because they live daily with absolutely no safeguards or fallbacks - it's a way of life and it changes you and the way you transact/communicate with other people - EG -

Originally Posted by Brenden Clerget

My main gripe is that why for $7, $9, even $17 or $27 do people think that they absolutely own your soul and can talk to you however they want?

The difference is having gripes or not having gripes. Those I'm referring to don't have gripes, they know that it's a waste of energy. Plus, they've been around long enough and gained enough worldly wisdom to know that this is the nature of interactions between human beings. Instead of gripes, they only have solutions and changes to make. People are complicated and difficult. When you gripe, you're aligning yourself with the people that you're complaining about.

Instead, make changes and move yourself away from the problem, or do business in a manner where dealing with the gripes is comfortably priced in so that it's an unsurprising, but adequately compensated issue.

You're not going to change human nature, but you can change the way that you do business. If you want better human business communications coming in your direction, the price that you have to pay (and the way to solve the problem) is to accept that you need to change/improve your own business communications in the other direction.

If you want to sit at home pressing buttons and never having to face others to communicate with them in order to make money, then that's all that you're ever going to get back and you've just pointed out the downside of that. To me, the solution is clear.

Why do people think they own you for $7?

...because you put communication/doing business with you up for sale for $7.

Yes I've tried it too (pre-hypocrite accusation disclaimer.) I'm talking from experience. I might do it again, too, but if it goes wrong I'll try to remember not to gripe about it - it was my decision to do it in the first place.

In my opinion, if you're going to be successful selling stuff online at $7, it's got to be purely a lead-in (filter) to higher priced transactions and the easiest way to fail is to pretend that you can handle a lot of customer service for each of those $7 buyers. If you don't get this right, who is to blame? The customer or you? If you don't learn the lesson (which is your take-away from this) and continue to make this mistake and to gripe about it, then who is to blame?

I know what a seasoned entrepreneur would say.

I hope this helps.

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revstan

11 years ago

Some people are paranoid when they buy things online. Those people are also the ones that after doing groceries and finding out that they got 1 $ less change, storm back to the supermarket to personally talk to the cashier and demand the buck, threatening with prosecution.

Simple Stan

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RichardDean

11 years ago

Originally Posted by revstan

Some people are paranoid when they buy things online. Those people are also the ones that after doing groceries and finding out that they got 1 $ less change, storm back to the supermarket to personally talk to the cashier and demand the buck, threatening with prosecution.

Simple Stan

There is nothing wrong with going back and getting your dollar...

I just got off work, got everything loaded in the car have to pick the kids up... and some dumb arse cashier messed up my bill... now I have to go back in...

If people would do their damn job right this crap would not happen...

If people would make a good product in the first place refunds would not happen.

Create crap and refunds will happen.

Richard

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jacksonlin

11 years ago

I think those people that whine and moan over $7 are not your target customer, so it's best to ignore them.

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Free Classified

11 years ago

Well offer an extra service, that of course you charge, for an extra well desserved fee.

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poweruphosting

11 years ago

I don't really agree with you, consider yourself as a customer. Now suppose you bought a product for 27$ and the product is faulty, won't you keep emailing the original author? Whenever I do my products I always consider myself as a customer and try to provide the best possible support.

I know some of the customers can get irrigating at times and the best thing you can do is refund their money and they would be quite.

So overall, if you sell a product whether it's 1$ or 1000$ you have to provide the same sort of customer support.

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bulldogzg

11 years ago

Yeah, I feel your pain as well. Had guys send me over 5-6 emails in a row when it was 4am my time and no way I could have replied them RIGHT AWAY. Ofc. no need to focus on the bad experiences when you had numerous positive ones. I've for example had over 300 wonderful clients and some even friends I met with my line of work, those 2-3 "bad" ones don't sound that bad at all

It's a pretty nice trade off

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kdmpublishing

11 years ago

People will complain over that 99 cent burger before they complain over the $10 angus steak burger. You can write an entire ebook on why people want refunds. And yes we all have the notion of not responding on the weekends, but many people believe that if they can order your product at 3 am, then they should be able to ask a question or demand a refund at 5 am. Holiday, weekends, doesnt matter, some people are like that. People are looking for this magic that they believe internet marketing sells them.

They are waiting for that one product that sells for $5 that will direct them to the magic site where they can grab a product for free, have someone else sell it for them for free, and all they need to do is set up their paypal account and go lie on their photoshopped beach with their photoshopped family. Then when they realize real work is involved, they get upset.

Many of us understand both sides of the coin. We have been scammed and we are also business owners trying to make a living. Think from both sides and be courteous, no matter what. Dont stoop to their level if they become nasty with you, not worth it.

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wizzard74

11 years ago

The way I see it, someone will always think they own you if you put something out there, even if it's for free.

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AmraP

11 years ago

"Agree with a lot of what you said. I don't mind somebody buying and refunding to get it for free, people are going to do that, and it's part of the business, and it's actually figured into our profit projections every year... but I mind when they do it so irrationally and angrily that it makes me feel like I'm a bad person, when I'm almost positive I'm not."

If you were a bad person you would not care as much, ignore the angry customers, process their refunds without ever contacting them. But you don't do any of that. So I believe it is safe to say that you are a good person.

I am a newbie and don't know a lot about IM, even so I would like to suggest that you write in bold your refund processing times, it may help reduce abusive e mails.

I support you in blacklisting all of those irrational customers that have nothing better to do.

Good luck.

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Christines Dream 11 years ago

Just out of curiosity did you refund them yet or did you start the rant first?

It IS over reactive for a customer to email you 6 to 10 times requesting a refund within 24 hours. Cost shouldn't matter. If you think by pricing your good higher you won't run into this issue you're sadly mistaken my friend.

Overall, I'm going to side with your buyer here. I recently ran into a situation whereby I purchased a product that was supposed to deliver training over a few weeks (say 1 webinar a week for 4 weeks). Well don't I get to week 3 and there is a personal problem that has prevented the vendor from delivering that week ...which is perfectly understandable... but just wait. Now it's been 4 weeks since my week 2 content and I've heard nothing but...my personal problem this and I'm re-scheduling and I couldn't do the rescheduled date because of another personal problem. Which even still I might be okay with -- I'm a very understandable person -- but you see how now I'm just a wee bit irritated.

Now I'm not only getting excuses but the vendor's also promoting other affiliate offers to me (almost daily) and just recently he opened up another WSO.

I'd unsubscribe or email blast .. but I can't ... I just want my other two webinars. NOW! Ten bucks or not it was promised to me and now I'm just mad!

...the other side of the coin.
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shuttercraft

11 years ago

In today economy $7 means more then it did a few years back. Also think about the people from countries where $7 is about a full day of work.

But I do agree with you... That is why I stooped offering gigs on Fiverr.com.

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Ken Strong

11 years ago

Calm down a bit, folks.

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Ken Strong 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Strong

Calm down a bit, folks.

Oh, shut up.
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David Mcalorum

11 years ago

In regards to the title of this thread;

I think the respect should run both ways.
The customer should respect the vendors time and efforts.
And the vendor should respect the customers refund.

Simple.

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eshoppingez

11 years ago

$7 is a lot of money for some people, especially if they are just starting out in their business. I haven't sold products before, but I sell my services, and there is always someone who expect a lot for the pennies they pay. It can't be helped. It's just a part of the process I guess.

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eziscript

11 years ago

as far as i know.. customers always in hurry.. for downloading product, Support HELP or refund.. Now you understand what i want to say...

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raphnexx

11 years ago

Hello Brendan,My advise is just chill because these people are just going to drain your talent.Focus on your work and put aside these negative emotions and learn from these experiences .

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Why do people think they own you for $7?

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