My offline approach is so simple, it's almost criminal.. but i made $3000 last week.

101 replies
OH NOOOOOO! Not another offline cash cow thread!!! But really, i just want to motivate y'all - this is how i made 3k in the past seven days.

So i sent out 200 letters to 200 mom and pop style companies (plus 50 emails but they didn't return any results) who already have a website.. but they don't know a thing about on-page seo.

I told 'em i would do some basic keyword research according to the niche they target, deliver the results in a word-document and then i'd:

- write an optimized title tag, plus
- a good description tag for better click-through rates

"[blah] ... a properly optimized site title, *can* give you a huge advantage over your local competition and can result in xxx potential new customers per month ... [blah]"

I threw in Social-Bookmarking on 6 sites as a bonus.

Got 9 clients - each at $350.
Workload: 10 minutes per client.

I think i'll do this full time for the next few months

And no, it's not scamming! They were all damn happy about the results and what do you know.. the usual going rate for basic keyword research is $600+ over here (and i told them about that fact in my letter =).
#approach #criminal #made #offline #simple #week
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  • Profile picture of the author Art Turner
    rate for basic keyword research is $600+ over here
    Over where?
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Art Turner View Post

      Over where?
      Germany. Professional seo companies' services start at $600 - $700 (basic website analysis + phone consultation, kw research if you're lucky)
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  • Profile picture of the author michael_nguyen
    post up the letter
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

      post up the letter
      i will, give me just a second to roughly translate it.
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  • Profile picture of the author winebuddy
    we need to start catering to German Comapnies!
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  • Profile picture of the author Karen Keyes
    Interesting.. got a question: Do you just randomly choose these 200 mom and pop shops from like the yellow pages (or similar) or did you focus on certain niches?
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Karen Newton View Post

      Interesting.. got a question: Do you just randomly choose these 200 mom and pop shops from like the yellow pages (or similar) or did you focus on certain niches?
      Randomly - i just went to an online YP site, got addresses + owner's name and had a look at their websites. If those sites weren't properly optimized, i sent out a letter. 3 of my clients were Nail Art Studios (in different cities) - i targeted some of those just because i had a client in that niche before.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

    OH NOOOOOO! Not another offline cash cow thread!!! But really, i just want to motivate y'all - this is how i made 3k in the past seven days.

    So i sent out 200 letters to 200 mom and pop style companies (plus 50 emails but they didn't return any results) who already have a website.. but they don't know a thing about on-page seo.

    I told 'em i would do some basic keyword research according to the niche they target, deliver the results in a word-document and then i'd:

    - write an optimized title tag, plus
    - a good description tag for better click-through rates

    "[blah] ... a properly optimized site title, *can* give you a huge advantage over your local competition and can result in xxx potential new customers per month ... [blah]"

    I threw in Social-Bookmarking on 6 sites as a bonus.

    Got 9 clients - each at $350.
    Workload: 10 minutes per client.

    I think i'll do this full time for the next few months

    And no, it's not scamming! They were all damn happy about the results and what do you know.. the usual going rate for basic keyword research is $600+ over here (and i told them about that fact in my letter =).
    Great stuff Chris. I'd keep in touch with them via online/offline newsletter if I were you as they'll be warm clients and you can offer other promotion services to them to add to your bottom line for little cost.

    Rich
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  • $350 for writing a title, description, and keyword research?

    Did you provide anything else?
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by shkad14 View Post

      $350 for writing a title, description, and keyword research?

      Did you provide anything else?
      Nope.
      Well, i included a document on how to use those keywords/phrases in the future and what it's all about.. Here and there (where it would fit) i rephrased some content and included h1/h2 tags and img alt attributes but basically i just did kw research + title + desc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Donahoe
    Hi Chris,

    I was actually recommending a very similar approach to this to a client who needed an extra bit of income to utilize their growing IM knowledge.

    Back this service up with some upsells such as newsletter integration, more intense marketing, PPC analysis (make sure there campaigns are optimized for maximum conversions), even recommendations for some 3rd party services you can earn commissions on monthly for residual income and you are all set.

    This is a very powerful business model that I used myself many years ago and will work just as well today.

    Best of luck with your new venture!

    Sean Donahoe
    The Manic Marketer
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  • Profile picture of the author Josef Kane
    It is amazing what can be earnt offline. A company my friend works for has just had a web company give them an "opinion" on their current website and what they need to get more customers via their website. This opinion was delivered in the format of 6 sheets of A4 paper, typed on one side of each, detailing what they would do i.e. keyword analysis, analyse traffic etc and for this might piece of work the company happily paid out just over £1,000.00 in real money ($1.350.00) for this report, all the "work" would cost extra.
    I have the photocopy of the report as he knew I was interested in starting up in this line so it helps me with my pricing having this bit of info.
    Also, for all the jargon and waffle in this report I would reckon that most warriors here could do a better job for a little less which would allow the company to think it had got a bargain. Both parties happy and nothing unethical done at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      I'd be very surprised if you couldn't convert at least 2-4 of these new clients into clients paying $1,000 to $2,500+ for other services directly related to helping them make more sales and profits in their business.

      I'd like to see the letter too because I can't imagine any mom and pop business hiring you for the service as you've described it (most wouldn't understand what you were talking about and they certainly wouldn't see any benefit in it for them).

      I imagine you described it quite differently in your letter.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
        Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

        I imagine you described it quite differently in your letter.
        Well, i described it in "mom and pop's words". I will post my letter when i'm happy with the translation.
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        • Profile picture of the author Philomina
          Hi Chris,

          Which niche did most of your clients come from
          and which were the easiest to convince.

          Thanks.
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          • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
            Originally Posted by Philomina View Post

            Hi Chris,

            Which niche did most of your clients come from
            and which were the easiest to convince.

            Thanks.
            nail art studios
            lock and key services
            food (pizza, thai) delivery services
            interior accessoires
            copy shop
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            • Profile picture of the author jan roos
              Nice work Chris. I'd love to see the letter as well because I am planning on focusing a lot on SEO with this business model. I think proper SEO and an autoresponder can make a huge difference in most offline businesses.


              Cheers
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            • Profile picture of the author mookinman
              Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

              nail art studios
              lock and key services
              food (pizza, thai) delivery services
              interior accessoires
              copy shop
              These are just the types of business I tend get most of my work from. It's a goldmine. once you start getting your first few clients, word quickly spreads and you start getting referrals - this is the best part because they're already sold on the idea of getting a website - they're just contacting you so they can get things up and running.
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Josef Kane View Post

      It is amazing what can be earnt offline. A company my friend works for has just had a web company give them an "opinion" on their current website and what they need to get more customers via their website.
      Yep it's hilarious - i've seen companies charge $3k+ for "basic consultation" ..basically they take your money and say your site sucks. Lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author spearce000
      Originally Posted by Josef Kane View Post

      This opinion was delivered in the format of 6 sheets of A4 paper, typed on one side of each, detailing what they would do i.e. keyword analysis, analyse traffic etc and for this might piece of work the company happily paid out just over £1,000.00 in real money ($1.350.00) for this report, all the "work" would cost extra.
      I'll bet that "report" is a Word template they send out to everyone with just a few alterations and fill-in-the-blank additons. Talk about money for old rope.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnSpangler
    Congrats Chris,

    An extra addon that you may want to consider would be providing videos and video submission to sites such as google video and youtube.

    These companies absolutely love this and are willing to pay for that service plus the search engines eat the video up as well.

    Just a thought.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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    • Profile picture of the author nata_sha
      Germany. Professional seo companies' services start at $600 - $700 (basic website analysis + phone consultation, kw research if you're lucky)
      Good God When i started two years ago, i used to do this much for free (except phone consultation) just to hook customers ... Do people really pay this much for these services? I am seriously thinking of targeting German market now ...
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    I love how you said "can" and put asterisks around it...

    You know what that says to me?

    It says that you know, pardon my french, that you are full of crap. You know that you charged then $350 bucks on something that wasn't worth anything close to that...

    In a word, you know that you are one of the people that will make offline consulting turn into a fad that makes every "mom and pop" business lose money and never trust marketers again.

    Congratulations, you are, as much as others will argue with me on this, a CON ARTIST.

    And yes. It is scamming.

    But rest assured, next month, less people will hire you, until you have no testimonials, and nobody is willing to work with you....

    Sold your soul for three thousand? That's pretty cheap.

    Moral: Respect others, and yourself.

    Integrity. Try it out once in a while.
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    • Profile picture of the author mikeong88
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    • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
      I don't get this. Why is it "immoral" or "lack integrity" to charge what someone is willing to pay? It is a free market and nobody is twisting another's hand.



      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      I love how you said "can" and put asterisks around it...

      You know what that says to me?

      It says that you know, pardon my french, that you are full of crap. You know that you charged then $350 bucks on something that wasn't worth anything close to that...

      In a word, you know that you are one of the people that will make offline consulting turn into a fad that makes every "mom and pop" business lose money and never trust marketers again.

      Congratulations, you are, as much as others will argue with me on this, a CON ARTIST.

      And yes. It is scamming.

      But rest assured, next month, less people will hire you, until you have no testimonials, and nobody is willing to work with you....

      Sold your soul for three thousand? That's pretty cheap.

      Moral: Respect others, and yourself.

      Integrity. Try it out once in a while.
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    • Profile picture of the author Josef Kane
      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      I love how you said "can" and put asterisks around it...

      You know what that says to me?

      It says that you know, pardon my french, that you are full of crap. You know that you charged then $350 bucks on something that wasn't worth anything close to that...

      In a word, you know that you are one of the people that will make offline consulting turn into a fad that makes every "mom and pop" business lose money and never trust marketers again.

      Congratulations, you are, as much as others will argue with me on this, a CON ARTIST.

      And yes. It is scamming.

      But rest assured, next month, less people will hire you, until you have no testimonials, and nobody is willing to work with you....

      Sold your soul for three thousand? That's pretty cheap.

      Moral: Respect others, and yourself.

      Integrity. Try it out once in a while.
      That was way too harsh. Why does charging that make him a con artist? I replied to the thread earlier where a firm came to look at my friends compaines website and make some suggestions and charged just over £1,000.00. The firm paid with no questions at all. You know what, anybody on this forum, barring the newest noob, could have done a better job in my opinion.
      You know what things are worth in reality? They are worth what people are willing to pay for them. That is why the housing market until recently went up and up. were the home owners selling their house con artists as they bought the house for $100,000 and were selling it for $300,000 without doing any major alterations etc.
      How much is a one litre bottle of water worth? If you were in a town full of shops probably less than £1.00 but if you were dehydrated in the desert, which too some extent some of these offline businesses are, how much would you pay then??
      I really think that before you start calling people con artists you wind your neck in and think a bit more.
      Sorry if others think I am a bit harsh but getting a bit jaded with holier than thou posters.
      Peace
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      • Profile picture of the author Josef Kane
        just another thing MiceandMen your sig file states about getting some information for free, that to me means without any exchange of anything yet you want an email sign up to build a list so it is not for nothing is it? Now let us have that chat about integrity.

        Got nothing against sign ups, part of the business, but it does mean the info is not "freely" exchanged.
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      ..you are full of crap. (...) Congratulations, you are, as much as others will argue with me on this, a CON ARTIST. (...)
      And yes. It is scamming.
      Thanks for your thoughts.

      a) i explain what they will get
      b) i explain what their benefit can be
      c) imho telling them that they "WILL DEFINITELY" get xxx new customers each month would be scamming
      d) i provide them a boatload of links to sites/documents that go deeper into this subject matter
      e) i even tell them to visit some of my competitors' sites, just so they can see what others are charging for this service
      f) i tell them they should ask their current webdesigner for his opinion about this offer
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    • Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      I love how you said "can" and put asterisks around it...

      You know what that says to me?

      It says that you know, pardon my french, that you are full of crap. You know that you charged then $350 bucks on something that wasn't worth anything close to that...

      Integrity. Try it out once in a while.
      It's pretty ironic that somebody who is offering an obvious get-rich-quick scam in their signature would make that criticism of someone who is helping businesses in their local area.

      I have done SEO for local mom and pop businesses who hadn't a clue. They saw their business explode as a result and were extremely grateful. Because I provided these services, I get free beer, drastically reduced dry cleaning, etc. out of gratitude in addition to the initial fees (that were sometimes reluctantly paid).

      People look for real-world services on the Internet. Helping service providers hook up with their customers is good, honest work. Telling people that they'll drive Maseratis by following your get-rich-quick instructions is just gross.
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      • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
        Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment View Post

        It's pretty ironic that somebody who is offering an obvious get-rich-quick scam in their signature would make that criticism of someone who is helping businesses in their local area.

        I have done SEO for local mom and pop businesses who hadn't a clue. They saw their business explode as a result and were extremely grateful. Because I provided these services, I get free beer, drastically reduced dry cleaning, etc. out of gratitude in addition to the initial fees (that were sometimes reluctantly paid).

        People look for real-world services on the Internet. Helping service providers hook up with their customers is good, honest work. Telling people that they'll drive Maseratis by following your get-rich-quick instructions is just gross.
        I appreciate your concerns about my site... but I don't think you know what the point of that site is... do you? I'm not selling anything, I dont have a one time offer, it is literally a crash course, through youtube videos, on how to get started in internet marketing. Your zeal against scamming people is commendable though.

        Now then, I am not saying SEO or consulting for businesses is wrong, far from it... Like I said earlier, if the stuff he did helped, I would have said to charge ten or twenty times as much. He charged 350 to change their description and title tag. You think that is ethical?

        YOU say you helped their businesses explode, etc. I commend that too. YOU are doing it correctly. YOU are actually helping them.

        Him? He is not.

        Thanks for the talk
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        • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
          Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

          He charged 350 to change their description and title tag. You think that is ethical?
          I think you should stop talking about things you don't know *hit about. And this is the last reply you'll get from me, Mickey. I mean we can all get along, can't we? Just a reminder for you "senior warrior member": "If you have a problem with another Warrior (...) take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions."


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      • Profile picture of the author Win Crow
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        • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
          Originally Posted by Win Crow View Post

          Chris,

          Please open a new thread about SEO and show some of us noobs how to do what you're doing.

          Thanks
          I will. May take some time but i will.
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    I'm not jaded... Everyone in the IM world "hypes"... This is way past hyping...

    Does he sincerely believe that his time is worth $2100 per hour?

    "[blah] ... a properly optimized site title, *can* give you a huge advantage over your local competition and can result in xxx potential new customers per month ... [blah]"
    He charged them $350 under false pretenses (that changing the title and description of their sites will make them NOT be hurt by the global economic recession) and seems to be pretty excited...

    Does he SINCERELY think that they will be seeing results because he changed their description and title? I highly doubt it... again, thats why he snidely put "can" in asterisks, wrote "potentially" in regards to visitors, etc.

    Yeah, he says that they were really happy with results, etc. But remember, they are MOM AND POP businesses that are looking for a chance to get back in the game... businesses are closing left and right, and they are seeing hope...

    Dont forget that most testimonials are given NOT when a person is successful, but right when he or she has finished reading the product, is excited and pumped, and thinks he or she will own the world.

    Him saying that they are really happy is just as unethical as his letters to them. They wont be too happy when they realize they gave away $350 of their hard earned money for complete BS.

    Like I said, I am a realist... but this is as close to disgusting as I have seen. If it was a REAL help to them, I would say hell charge them 10X as much... WIN-WIN.

    This is a win-lose.
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    • Profile picture of the author VegasGreg
      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      I'm not jaded... Everyone in the IM world "hypes"... This is way past hyping...

      Does he sincerely believe that his time is worth $2100 per hour?



      He charged them $350 under false pretenses (that changing the title and description of their sites will make them NOT be hurt by the global economic recession) and seems to be pretty excited...

      Does he SINCERELY think that they will be seeing results because he changed their description and title? I highly doubt it... again, thats why he snidely put "can" in asterisks, wrote "potentially" in regards to visitors, etc.

      Yeah, he says that they were really happy with results, etc. But remember, they are MOM AND POP businesses that are looking for a chance to get back in the game... businesses are closing left and right, and they are seeing hope...

      Dont forget that most testimonials are given NOT when a person is successful, but right when he or she has finished reading the product, is excited and pumped, and thinks he or she will own the world.

      Him saying that they are really happy is just as unethical as his letters to them. They wont be too happy when they realize they gave away $350 of their hard earned money for complete BS.

      Like I said, I am a realist... but this is as close to disgusting as I have seen. If it was a REAL help to them, I would say hell charge them 10X as much... WIN-WIN.

      This is a win-lose.
      If a company has a web site that no one can find in the search engines, they are sitting on a wasted asset. Chris provided them a valuable service so the companies WILL be found in the search engines. Now they have a chance at making more sales and increase their revenue.

      That IS win-win.
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    • Profile picture of the author NewbiesDiary
      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      I'm not jaded... Everyone in the IM world "hypes"... This is way past hyping...

      Does he sincerely believe that his time is worth $2100 per hour?



      He charged them $350 under false pretenses (that changing the title and description of their sites will make them NOT be hurt by the global economic recession) and seems to be pretty excited...

      Does he SINCERELY think that they will be seeing results because he changed their description and title? I highly doubt it... again, thats why he snidely put "can" in asterisks, wrote "potentially" in regards to visitors, etc.

      Yeah, he says that they were really happy with results, etc. But remember, they are MOM AND POP businesses that are looking for a chance to get back in the game... businesses are closing left and right, and they are seeing hope...

      Dont forget that most testimonials are given NOT when a person is successful, but right when he or she has finished reading the product, is excited and pumped, and thinks he or she will own the world.

      Him saying that they are really happy is just as unethical as his letters to them. They wont be too happy when they realize they gave away $350 of their hard earned money for complete BS.

      Like I said, I am a realist... but this is as close to disgusting as I have seen. If it was a REAL help to them, I would say hell charge them 10X as much... WIN-WIN.

      This is a win-lose.
      WOW - If these clients end up actually showing on search engines (most ma & pa sites don't) and if they then get more traffic and clients, then these people are gonna be happier than pigs in sh!t!

      The point is - this guy has provided a service that they OBVIOUSLY weren't capable of supplying themselves, and just as obviously nor was their original web designer - or it would already have been done.

      I paid over $70 to get my nails done - so if a nail business gets just 5 extra clients from more traffic that this guy generates (I hope he put tracking on the sites too!) then that nail business is gonna think he's God and worth a sh!t load more than $350!! He's not charging that per month - it's a one off fee which obviously the clients believe is worth it!

      I have just finished a site for an offline client - he was recommended by my friend. When I met him he had his cheque book on the table ready - I figured out a price and asked for half - (I was apologetic about asking for half - I have difficulty asking for money, but he said it was ok he expected it!). I finished his site within 2 weeks, SEO'd etc, and he came to me with his cheque book in hand again and couldn't wait to pay.

      His site is already on page one for a few of his keywords - one keyword he's at position 3 for his site and #7 for his video.

      This guy loves me! I could have charged twice as much (it wasn't cheap as it is) and he would still have loved me!

      As long as we do what we say we can do and achieve the results we say can achieve then this is certainly not scamming - and we have clients that love us and can't wait for us to do more for them!

      haha - I'm feelin the love!

      There are so many services that we can supply for offline business it's incredible - and as long as we keep the clients best interest in mind - make sure we're working for the client not for the money - then the offline world.

      Considering the number of sites out there that don't have basic SEO, Chris's method is both valuable and a logical place to start for offline clients - well done Chris!
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      • Profile picture of the author PaidToEmpower
        Originally Posted by NewbiesDiary View Post

        WOW - If these clients end up actually showing on search engines (most ma & pa sites don't) and if they then get more traffic and clients, then these people are gonna be happier than pigs in sh!t!

        The point is - this guy has provided a service that they OBVIOUSLY weren't capable of supplying themselves, and just as obviously nor was their original web designer - or it would already have been done.

        I paid over $70 to get my nails done - so if a nail business gets just 5 extra clients from more traffic that this guy generates (I hope he put tracking on the sites too!) then that nail business is gonna think he's God and worth a sh!t load more than $350!! He's not charging that per month - it's a one off fee which obviously the clients believe is worth it!

        I have just finished a site for an offline client - he was recommended by my friend. When I met him he had his cheque book on the table ready - I figured out a price and asked for half - (I was apologetic about asking for half - I have difficulty asking for money, but he said it was ok he expected it!). I finished his site within 2 weeks, SEO'd etc, and he came to me with his cheque book in hand again and couldn't wait to pay.

        His site is already on page one for a few of his keywords - one keyword he's at position 3 for his site and #7 for his video.

        This guy loves me! I could have charged twice as much (it wasn't cheap as it is) and he would still have loved me!

        As long as we do what we say we can do and achieve the results we say can achieve then this is certainly not scamming - and we have clients that love us and can't wait for us to do more for them!

        haha - I'm feelin the love!

        There are so many services that we can supply for offline business it's incredible - and as long as we keep the clients best interest in mind - make sure we're working for the client not for the money - then the offline world.

        Considering the number of sites out there that don't have basic SEO, Chris's method is both valuable and a logical place to start for offline clients - well done Chris!
        Great post NewbiesDiary...I completely agree. To me it DOES come down to whether or not the client gets the result THEY were looking for. And they are businesses, not babies. If they evaluate Chris's offer and agree on the price...DONE.

        I was in the airport yesterday, had just gotten off the plane, had a raging thirst and right there was a kiosk selling water. Yay..!! But...it was a small water with a HUGE price tag. Did I think the price was high? YES Did I want water badly? YES. So end result, High price, but worth it.

        I see this situation pretty much the same. Perhaps some folks here want to skewer Chris because of his "flip" manner in which he described what he did. I think you could take his EXACT facts, say them differently and not have the harsh feedback that we are seeing here. Just mho.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I haven't participated much in the offline threads because it's not something I want to do right now.

        There are many ways to do business with offline owners - and I don't think it's taking advantage if you outline honestly what you will do and they are willing to pay for it. What I don't like in some of these threads is the underlying assumption that small business owners will throw money at you for a bad offer. They aren't stupid - they didn't stay in business because they waste money.

        The owner of a store I frequent has asked if I would be interested in taking on his site. He paid $500 to have the site built in 2006 and the deal was the designer would maintain and improve the site for 3 months and then there would be monthly fees for hosting and site maintenance. After building the site, the designer disappeared. Moved, no contact, the site remains up - with coupons on it from 2006. It's also not a very well built site.

        The owner made a great comment to me - which shows how smart many of the mom and pop business owners are. He said he knows not to expect too much from his website - but that he feels as more and more people are online, that site will eventually be better for the business than his yellow pages listing that he pays dearly for.

        He feels soon the majority of people new to an area or traveling (this is a tourist destination) will reach for their laptop instead of the phone book to find local businesses - and he's right! HE'S thinking long term - not looking for a quick fix.

        I thought he made an excellent point - and it would be a great selling point for this type of business, too.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
          He feels soon the majority of people new to an area or traveling (this is a tourist destination) will reach for their laptop instead of the phone book to find local businesses
          Most will actually reach for their mobile ...

          Restaurants / fast food / pubs etc... serving the younger crowds - might want to discuss a single page optimized for mobile phones as an add on.

          I think the tech exists for having the index.html [etc...] redirect to a mobile optimized page[s] Tel Number/Address/Google directions link/menu.

          Cant tell you how many times im in an area looking for food/gas/adult beverages - not in that order - and pull out the mobile and give google a go - only to be frustrated with viewing the landing page.

          Im sure there is a wireless mapping software providers website with the stats on it to back up the need for such content/services.

          Jus another idear ...
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  • Profile picture of the author Jon Alexander
    Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

    OH NOOOOOO! Not another offline cash cow thread!!! But really, i just want to motivate y'all - this is how i made 3k in the past seven days.

    So i sent out 200 letters to 200 mom and pop style companies (plus 50 emails but they didn't return any results) who already have a website.. but they don't know a thing about on-page seo.

    I told 'em i would do some basic keyword research according to the niche they target, deliver the results in a word-document and then i'd:

    - write an optimized title tag, plus
    - a good description tag for better click-through rates

    "[blah] ... a properly optimized site title, *can* give you a huge advantage over your local competition and can result in xxx potential new customers per month ... [blah]"

    I threw in Social-Bookmarking on 6 sites as a bonus.

    Got 9 clients - each at $350.
    Workload: 10 minutes per client.

    I think i'll do this full time for the next few months

    And no, it's not scamming! They were all damn happy about the results and what do you know.. the usual going rate for basic keyword research is $600+ over here (and i told them about that fact in my letter =).
    $35 per minute! Now THAT'S moving!
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  • Profile picture of the author serrow
    $350 to a mom and pop? You'd better hope those results pan out. No good having a one-time client that will never refer you to friends. Mom and pops are feeling pretty desperate right about now. Those that survived the big box boom are now facing serious credit concerns, payrolling, and liquidity issues. Heck, do it for $50 and your phone will never stop ringing.
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  • Profile picture of the author d3sign3r
    This is a good idea.. I'm gonna try this at my locality.
    Another idea can be approaching local businesses and convincing them to design/redesign their websites, especially Real Estate agents.
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    This method of approach has been well promoted by several well known internet marketers and a very well known copywriter, it is also an approach VERY widely used by all sorts of genuine offline companies.

    What a lot of internet marketers seem to be saying is that offline business owners are simply cows to be milked till their udders fall off. This is a dangerous and stupid attitude to have.

    While offline customers might not be au fait with all that goes on online, IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM STUPID!

    I deal with offline customers who are happy enough to talk to me IF my letter is sufficiently IMMEDIATELY interesting enough for them to read it - but they certainly would not accept it if - I told 'em i would do some basic keyword research according to the niche they target, deliver the results in a word-document - because that's just hog-wash.

    Look at it!

    It is all IM phraseology! This means that the prospect wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about and certainly would not pay up.

    OR

    Am I to assume that the phraseology has been translated into IMese because all the thick internet marketers reading the post would not understand what he was talking about if he used the offline terminolgy that his customers did understand?

    Talk about painting with a wiiiide brush!
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Turner
    Hi -chucke - just did a post - you might want to see
    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...usinesses.html
    I have spoken to a few business owners who have paid from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars for this type of service - none of whom thought the money was well spent - if it did result in extra enguiry it was minimal and untrackable - I'm begining to think on site seo is almost meaningless if not backed up by something else
    Good luck - hope your efforts mean more clients for your clients
    Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    I have been in outside sales for almost 30 years - and if you call a mid-range 6 figure income successful - then I do pretty well for myself. I ONLY sell intangibles (services) that have a recurring income stream - so that means my 'specialty' if you will - is what we call 'relationship selling'.

    Right now, my husband and I both are hitting the pavement to launch our new mobile sms marketing service - and here's something that I can tell you - first hand - not theory - about what is going on this niche offline....

    In doing our presentations, we have been asked how our service can be tied into their other marketing strategies - web, PPC, print, etc. and more than half of the clients (from single location small businesses to 100 location pizza franchises) have been 'victimized' by people that have sold them websites for $1000s, then by SEO/marketing experts that sold them PPC/SEO etc for $1000s - and they have also been sold the "get into your local Google results" plan as well. And the way the sales process goes for these various services is this: pitch with promises - money paid - 'work' done - no follow-up - no fine tuning - no results - p*ssed off client!

    And I say victimized because we have yet to come across one client that has said "Wow! We really are thrilled with our website/SEO/PPC provider!" Instead, the common thread is that the site is 'out there', the listing is 'out there' - and it has never done a darned thing for the company.

    And these people are NOT STUPID - they hire out these tasks for the same reason IMers do - it's called OUTSOURCING!! If they hire you to perform certain web marketing tasks - don't make the mistake of thinking they cannot find out the REAL cost of the service you are providing.

    Can you imagine how angry the client was that had paid $1500 to get into Google maps - only to find out (which he discovered with a couple of clicks when he went to look at his new "premium" local listing???) that the service was free and he could have done it himself in 5 minutes? Yes, he demanded and received a refund and the 'service provider' will get no more business - and more importantly - no referrals........

    Our approach? We let them use our mobile text service for 60 days, we train them, we work with them - and oh yeah, I am reviewing their websites & SEO for free, and discussing what THEY should/could be doing, rather than selling them on what I can do for them. And yes, several have come back and asked if I would CONSIDER handling it for them......yeah, I might ;-)

    The point is this: in many areas - especially in major metro areas in the US - your local business owners have already been burned badly by your predecessor. Don't go out for the one shot kill. Don't make claims you can't honestly guarantee - do a good job, develop a relationship, and have as many services in your portfolio as possible to offer them.

    Build yourself a nice 'family' of long term clients that are always happy to see you when you walk in the door, and happy to give you a few minutes to look at whatever it is you have for them today.

    It works.

    Melody

    Build trust with them, and you will build a recurring income business model - rather than spending the next 30 years hitting the pavement looking for new clients every day.
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    • Profile picture of the author Maria Gudelis
      Originally Posted by Melody View Post

      I have been in outside sales for almost 30 years - and if you call a mid-range 6 figure income successful - then I do pretty well for myself. I ONLY sell intangibles (services) that have a recurring income stream - so that means my 'specialty' if you will - is what we call 'relationship selling'.

      Right now, my husband and I both are hitting the pavement to launch our new mobile sms marketing service - and here's something that I can tell you - first hand - not theory - about what is going on this niche offline....

      In doing our presentations, we have been asked how our service can be tied into their other marketing strategies - web, PPC, print, etc. and more than half of the clients (from single location small businesses to 100 location pizza franchises) have been 'victimized' by people that have sold them websites for $1000s, then by SEO/marketing experts that sold them PPC/SEO etc for $1000s - and they have also been sold the "get into your local Google results" plan as well. And the way the sales process goes for these various services is this: pitch with promises - money paid - 'work' done - no follow-up - no fine tuning - no results - p*ssed off client!

      And I say victimized because we have yet to come across one client that has said "Wow! We really are thrilled with our website/SEO/PPC provider!" Instead, the common thread is that the site is 'out there', the listing is 'out there' - and it has never done a darned thing for the company.

      And these people are NOT STUPID - they hire out these tasks for the same reason IMers do - it's called OUTSOURCING!! If they hire you to perform certain web marketing tasks - don't make the mistake of thinking they cannot find out the REAL cost of the service you are providing.

      Can you imagine how angry the client was that had paid $1500 to get into Google maps - only to find out (which he discovered with a couple of clicks when he went to look at his new "premium" local listing???) that the service was free and he could have done it himself in 5 minutes? Yes, he demanded and received a refund and the 'service provider' will get no more business - and more importantly - no referrals........

      Our approach? We let them use our mobile text service for 60 days, we train them, we work with them - and oh yeah, I am reviewing their websites & SEO for free, and discussing what THEY should/could be doing, rather than selling them on what I can do for them. And yes, several have come back and asked if I would CONSIDER handling it for them......yeah, I might ;-)

      The point is this: in many areas - especially in major metro areas in the US - your local business owners have already been burned badly by your predecessor. Don't go out for the one shot kill. Don't make claims you can't honestly guarantee - do a good job, develop a relationship, and have as many services in your portfolio as possible to offer them.

      Build yourself a nice 'family' of long term clients that are always happy to see you when you walk in the door, and happy to give you a few minutes to look at whatever it is you have for them today.

      It works.

      Melody

      Build trust with them, and you will build a recurring income business model - rather than spending the next 30 years hitting the pavement looking for new clients every day.
      I've seen this now in the Vegas market - alot of mistrust of SEO services simply as some of my prospects have said "There have been so many companies here that say they can do SEO and then they are no longer in business"

      so I focus more on the autoresponder services to sell, the fact that i have a real brick-n-mortar office helps with trustworthiness.... and I don't push SEO til they have asked or I show them for free as it can be easy for some long-tail keywords - like right now, one prospect - I have on google page 1, 3rd position for a long tail keyword for his niche - "Results 1 - 10 of about 239,000"

      It also works both ways though as in 'you get what you pay for' as some companies have to be really educated on the investment of a true SEO blueprint and have the patience to 'wait' for the google results...I ROFL when one client of mine got suckered into a $500 price by a crafty telemarketer for 'I'll get you on page one of google in less than 30 days"on their competititve keywords...well - that company sure enough couldn't deliver with all the 'free blog services' they set up for them and sure enough, I still get my checks every month from that client as they realized what I had told them was true.
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  • Profile picture of the author iw433
    An object or service is worth as much a those involved in the transaction agree it is worth.
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  • Profile picture of the author theinfomaven
    Chris,

    Did you have a website with samples of your seo work to show them, or did you set all of this up directly via phone & snail mail?
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    • Profile picture of the author theinfomaven
      Originally Posted by theinfomaven View Post

      Chris,

      Did you have a website with samples of your seo work to show them, or did you set all of this up directly via phone & snail mail?
      !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
    Hey Josef.

    It is a free newsletter... How efficient would it be to have a newsletter that nobody could access?

    There is going to be a youtube channel too... Or should I not ask them to subscribe?

    Regardless. You are missing the point.

    He twisted facts to get the sale. Changing a title tag and description tag for 350 dollars? I dont care how long it took, if it would make a big difference, I would tell him to charge 10x as much...

    HERE are the facts though:

    He told them that changing a title bar and description tag will improve their business by "XXX visitors." Yeah, I will be willing to bet you that if they didnt even have a good description, they had no SEO whatsoever. That means they were most likely NOWHERE near the top results for the serps...

    So I guess that if someone managed to get to page 300 of the results, he or she MAY say "wow... that's a great description! I choose to click that!"

    Please. Think critically guys.
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    • Profile picture of the author Josef Kane
      Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

      Hey Josef.

      It is a free newsletter... How efficient would it be to have a newsletter that nobody could access?

      There is going to be a youtube channel too... Or should I not ask them to subscribe?

      Regardless. You are missing the point.

      He twisted facts to get the sale. Changing a title tag and description tag for 350 dollars? I dont care how long it took, if it would make a big difference, I would tell him to charge 10x as much...

      HERE are the facts though:

      He told them that changing a title bar and description tag will improve their business by "XXX visitors." Yeah, I will be willing to bet you that if they didnt even have a good description, they had no SEO whatsoever. That means they were most likely NOWHERE near the top results for the serps...

      So I guess that if someone managed to get to page 300 of the results, he or she MAY say "wow... that's a great description! I choose to click that!"

      Please. Think critically guys.
      Well MiceandMen I have to say you tell a porkie in your reply. It's a free newsletter you state and how will you know where to send it if you don't have my email address. But where do you state in your reply that unless you get another three names for your list we can all go and swivel because you won't send any information?

      I don't know the original poster at all so there is nothing personal in me defending him but you are calling the fella a scammer and con artist on what evidence? In fact your opt-in strategy left me feeling that in no way would I want to have anything to do with you. In fact just reading your replies leave me feeling that I want nothing to do with you.
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  • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
    Good post Chris, but for fairness sake you are not calcualting things the right way.

    I see that you are calculating your work for the time that you did the research for the SEO stuff.

    But, how many hours did it take to write the letter, print 200 copies out, fold them into tri-fold style, stuff the envelopes, stamp the stamps, and handwrite or type out each mailing address label?

    I'd put that at 7 hours time which is not to say that you are not making out like a bandit...

    Also when you subtract the cost of the mailings your profits were just cut into.

    In Dan Kennedy style you might want to follow up and do 2 more mailings to the list to try to warm the list up even more and make more sales.

    Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post


    So i sent out 200 letters to 200 mom and pop style companies (plus 50 emails but they didn't return any results) who already have a website.. but they don't know a thing about on-page seo.

    Got 9 clients - each at $350.
    Workload: 10 minutes per client.
    .
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    It is not a logical place to start.

    Changing a meta description won't do crap, if the site isn't listing in the SERPs at all.

    Now, I could be wrong here, but based on the info given so far, it doesn't sound like he asked them if their sites were showing up in the SERPs in the first place. So, essentially, he is charging for results that he will not deliver.

    We can argue semantics and say that he is still doing work and should be paid for that, or that his clients need to work on their knowledge.

    Whilst all this is true to an extent, I still feel, based on the information presented, he is essentially praying on ignorance.

    I congratulate MouseandMice for having the balls to go against the grain in this thread.

    Anyone who knows anything about SEO knows it takes a lot of effort to rank well. Most offline businesses don't know anything about SEO - they trust us to know that stuff and to provide a service THAT DELIVERS RESULTS.

    You're not providing results. You're charging a crapload for something very simple and, quite simply, pointless.

    The fact that a lot of people do it doesn't make it right.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Anyone who knows anything about SEO knows it takes a lot of effort to rank well. Most offline businesses don't know anything about SEO - they trust us to know that stuff and to provide a service THAT DELIVERS RESULTS.

      You're not providing results. You're charging a crapload for something very simple and, quite simply, pointless.

      I'd go a whole lot further than that and say that just getting a website good search engine results can still be ripping them off if those listings don't end up with sales and profits that more than pay the fee you charge.

      Put simply whatever service you charge a business for...

      # If you make them a good profit over what they pay you then it's a fantastic deal for them.

      # If you don't make them a good profit then you ripped them off.

      A truly comitted consultant will go back and work with the clients where he didn't get a profitable result until he does make them money.

      That's how you learn and it's the difference between and amateur and a tru pro.

      Unfortunately most web designers (even many of the really good ones) are still hopeless amateurs at making their clients profits and it results in so many businesses basically getting ripped off.

      This also means that someone relatively new to internet marketing who knows how to place a craigslist ad could seriously outperform a web designer with a decade's experience.

      It's nearly always about getting real results that your clients can bank....hard sales and profits.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    If you had gotten off the plane, paid the ridiculous amount for the water, and, after drinking it, found it hadn't quenched your thirst at all... would you still think it was worth it?

    He's providing a service here, not a product. Services are valued on the RESULTS they DELIVER.

    If you had paid for the water, and some guy went through the motions of handing you a bottle, but dropped it and left it on the ground, then said "well, I tried, can't give you a refund", you would not be happy.

    I appreciate where you are coming from however it's really not quite the same, or as straight-forward.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author PaidToEmpower
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      If you had gotten off the plane, paid the ridiculous amount for the water, and, after drinking it, found it hadn't quenched your thirst at all... would you still think it was worth it?

      He's providing a service here, not a product. Services are valued on the RESULTS they DELIVER.

      If you had paid for the water, and some guy went through the motions of handing you a bottle, but dropped it and left it on the ground, then said "well, I tried, can't give you a refund", you would not be happy.

      I appreciate where you are coming from however it's really not quite the same, or as straight-forward.

      -Dan
      Hey Daniel,

      I do see your point, however, maybe mine was not made too clear. The "sameness" I see here is that both sides of the transaction are entering into it knowing the price of the goods and the terms.

      Not getting my thirst quenched would be as hard to quantify as Chris's customer being satisfied or not. If the nail salon brings in 5 new clients that only buy the minimum service (say a 15 dollar service) that would only quantify to 75 bucks...so we would think NO, the client can't possibly be happy. BUT, if those 5 NEW people come back AND refer others...that's a good thing and may be ALL that the customer needed to feel satisfied and delighted with Chris's work.

      I still say that if Chris had "professionally" laid out his offer and results, most people reading here would not have a problem with it. He made it sound like he "laughed all the way to the bank" and that wigged a few people out.

      It is NOT about how much he charged and whether or not he charged too much...it is about the two sides of the transaction and whether THEY feel good about it. Again, just mho. Cathy
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    • Profile picture of the author PaidToEmpower
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      If you had gotten off the plane, paid the ridiculous amount for the water, and, after drinking it, found it hadn't quenched your thirst at all... would you still think it was worth it?

      He's providing a service here, not a product. Services are valued on the RESULTS they DELIVER.

      If you had paid for the water, and some guy went through the motions of handing you a bottle, but dropped it and left it on the ground, then said "well, I tried, can't give you a refund", you would not be happy.

      I appreciate where you are coming from however it's really not quite the same, or as straight-forward.

      -Dan
      Oh, and one more thing..."Services are valued on the RESULTS they DELIVER." Says who?? Services SHOULD be valued on the results they deliver...and it would be great if ALL services were valued on the results they deliver....BUT AGAIN....I must come back to...Is it a mutually agreed upon transaction...and is the customer satisfied??? That is what really matters.

      AND...who quantifies the results...it is an agreement between 2, so only they can decide. C.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Cathy,

    The problem I have with his approach is not any "profiteering" (perceived or otherwise).

    It's that he is charging money for a service that, most likely, will produce ZERO results.

    It's easy to bullshit, unfortunately, and some people are good at it. If they already had SEO done - and would appear in listings - they would have good titles and meta tags already.

    He's charging a fair chunk of change, alluding to (if not promising) results that simply will not happen.

    Whilst "technically" okay, I certain think it's unethical and immoral.

    I have the feeling Chris has very little proven success with SEO to begin with... I'm not 100% about that though, but that's certainly the impression I get from his post.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      I have the feeling Chris has very little proven success with SEO to begin with... I'm not 100% about that though, but that's certainly the impression I get from his post.
      Well you're wrong about that.. And the only reason i bump this thread is because i want to make that one point clear: I'm in the online marketing biz since 2001 and i definitely know a LOT about seo. Take it from me. I started in the adult industry and learned the hard way what it takes to conquer the serps. It's also perfectly correct to state that just title tag design alone is not the holy grail when it comes to getting found on the web.

      Thing is, I provide a service and my clients are happy - period. There's a whole LOT of explanation going on before i close the sale. I even tell my potential clients that they should get their current webdesigner's opinon and call me back if they're still interested in my services.

      Yes, i charge $350 - compared to other well-known companies that charge 800 bucks just for a basic site-analysis, this is a BARGAIN.

      Actually i wanted to let this thread die but i simply refuse to be called a scammer or a con artist or a bullshitter.
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      • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
        Daniel.

        Thanks. At least someone else who isnt going to sheepishly agree with the rest of the crowd because they want to feel better about themselves when they decided to scam businesses too.

        Thank GOD most people don't take action.

        Chris. I am sorry for saying that stuff.

        I was thinking... in one month you will have no referrals. No repeat customers... You will be scared to answer your phone because you will wonder if it is one of the people you ripped off.

        You disgust me, but its ok. You'll get it back to you one day. I have a feeling it is very soon.

        What you did for their sites won't amount for SH!T. If they didn't even have good titles or descriptions (which I assume means NO description), changing it won't help their rankings in the least.

        Google no longer looks at descriptions to rank sites, and while it does look at titles, it looks at MUCH more than that.

        You are the reason half the world get antsy when they hear about internet marketing... because you are the type of person that has Fed them over in the past.
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        • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
          Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post


          Chris. I am sorry for saying that stuff.

          I was thinking... in one month you will have no referrals. No repeat customers... You will be scared to answer your phone because you will wonder if it is one of the people you ripped off.

          You disgust me, but its ok. You'll get it back to you one day. I have a feeling it is very soon.

          What you did for their sites won't amount for SH!T. If they didn't even have good titles or descriptions (which I assume means NO description), changing it won't help their rankings in the least.

          Google no longer looks at descriptions to rank sites, and while it does look at titles, it looks at MUCH more than that.

          You are the reason half the world get antsy when they hear about internet marketing... because you are the type of person that has Fed them over in the past.
          First of all.. step back with your accusations a little bit, kthx.

          Second. Descriptions. Sure thing they don't matter when it comes to rankings.. But did you hear about Click Through Rates? ..Does that ring a bell, buddy?
          Third. Keyword Research. Part of my offer. You know the usual pricetag on professional kw research? And i don't mean your lame ass stuff like the free wordtracker tool. Market Analysis. Go figure.

          You saw ONE roughly translated line of my sales letter and call me a con artist - you're definitely the man, bro!
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          • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
            Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

            First of all.. step back with your accusations a little bit, kthx.

            Second. Descriptions. Sure thing they don't matter when it comes to rankings.. But did you hear about Click Through Rates? ..Does that ring a bell, buddy?
            Third. Keyword Research. Part of my offer. You know the usual pricetag on professional kw research? And i don't mean your lame ass stuff like the free wordtracker tool. Market Analysis. Go figure.

            You saw ONE roughly translated line of my sales letter and call me a con artist - you're definitely the man, bro!
            You can use words like "buddy" and phrases like "you're definately the man, bro!"

            Be as condescending as you want.

            I have nothing to prove to you, boy. I know how good I am at what I do. But, I'll take your condescension and up it once... One tidbit for you.

            You're excited because you got $350 one time from a mom-and-pop you've ripped off?

            I get tens of thousands from companies that you buy from every day. And I get tens of thousands from mom-and-pops that are no longer "mom-and-pops" because of me.

            You, you're a scammer. You're a con artist. You're a bullshitter.

            Come back to me when all of those companies are setting up paid consultations with you just for a chance to see what you would do next, and just for a chance for them to hire you.

            Come back to me when half of your clients are telling everyone about your consulting firm, and others are telling nobody, in an effort to keep you just to themselves.

            Essentially, come back to me when you have ETHICS.
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      • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
        Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

        Well you're wrong about that.. And the only reason i bump this thread is because i want to make that one point clear: I'm in the online marketing biz since 2001 and i definitely know a LOT about seo. Take it from me. I started in the adult industry and learned the hard way what it takes to conquer the serps. It's also perfectly correct to state that just title tag design alone is not the holy grail when it comes to getting found on the web.
        No. He is pretty right. If you were able to "conquer" the SERPs for the adult industry... I would assume you would be the top affiliate for most products... Oh wait, never mind.

        Real question. The keywords for your design site are FAR from optimized... and you are #4 out of like 120,000 for the first one... Nice job "conquering" such a competitive keyword.

        Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post


        Thing is, I provide a service and my clients are happy - period. There's a whole LOT of explanation going on before i close the sale. I even tell my potential clients that they should get their current webdesigner's opinon and call me back if they're still interested in my services.
        I went over WHY they are happy RIGHT NOW. They are excited because it is the first few days... the same way that people who spend $5k on products at seminars rush to give testimonials right afterwords. Same way you have so many testimonials in the first HOURS of a product launch. The HYPE is what TRICKS them to be happy.

        If they are still happy in a few months, with the amazing response changing their description on their listing on page 130 or whatever, come to me and I will publicly apologize to you. I bet that you wont want to call them though... because they have either forgotten that you ripped them off, or will be pissed.

        Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

        Yes, i charge $350 - compared to other well-known companies that charge 800 bucks just for a basic site-analysis, this is a BARGAIN.
        Yes WELL KNOWN. They know what they are doing. They look at the site, say "oh, this is all messed up in these aspects... either hire us, or do it yourself, or hire someone else" That "Basic" site analysis is leagues better than your "Super Secret Title/Description Optimizer" package.

        Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

        Actually i wanted to let this thread die but i simply refuse to be called a scammer or a con artist or a bullshitter.
        You want to let it die because a part of you realizes how stupid you are for being a leech in the marketing world. Why are you here? You have no ethics and no morals. Just spam from now on or something. And don't call yourself a "marketer"

        And yes. You ARE a Scammer. You ARE a Con-Artist. You ARE a Bullshitter.

        Kudos to you. Your parents would be proud.

        -Ali

        PS- If you were so good at "conquering" SERPs, you would have had examples for them.

        Nice try.

        Or as Sarah Marshall says:

        "Boo-shiw boo-shiw- boo-shiw!"
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        • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
          Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

          And yes. You ARE a Scammer. You ARE a Con-Artist. You ARE a Bullshitter.
          How old are you again, like 17? Don't worry mate, it'll all get better for you when you're grown up.
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          • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
            Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

            How old are you again, like 17? Don't worry mate, it'll all get better for you when you're grown up.
            Yeah. I'm 18.

            June 2nd, 1990.

            Started IM, right here on the warrior forum, when I was 14.

            Bought my Maserati when I was 16.

            Ordered an F430 Scuderia a bit after I turned 18 and it should be here in about 6 months. Yellow on Black with yellow inserts.

            Donate to various charities.

            Offer free consulting to people who are starting IM.




            What do you do? Oh, you rip people off. Nice!

            <3
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        • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
          Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

          If you were able to "conquer" the SERPs for the adult industry... I would assume you would be the top affiliate for most products... Oh wait, never mind.
          Well, i rank first page in some microniches and that's where the money's at. But thanks for your concern.

          Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

          Real question. The keywords for your design site are FAR from optimized... and you are #4 out of like 120,000 for the first one... Nice job "conquering" such a competitive keyword.
          Do you know my strategy? ..Do you know it takes some time to get a decent ranking?
          Oh and btw, im #7 out of 500k for my term and that gets me new clients.
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          • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
            Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

            Well, i rank first page in some microniches and that's where the money's at. But thanks for your concern.



            Do you know my strategy? ..Do you know it takes some time to get a decent ranking?
            I dont know much about SEO... My mom's site is now #2 out of 1 million in a very competitive niche...

            Time? a week of the site being up, 2 days of it being optimized (and Google hasn't even cached it yet.)

            Yeah, it takes time... I may have been a fluke that it happened that fast...

            But your site has been up for about a year now.. hasn't it?

            1-25-2008
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            • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
              Originally Posted by MouseandMice View Post

              But your site has been up for about a year now.. hasn't it?
              1-25-2008
              howtodrawings.com? ..i got that site pushed to me from a friend 2 months ago. There was *nothing* on it back then. And if you have a closer look, there IS nothing much on it right now. It's just an experiment (to rank for "draw graffiti letters"). My cartoon design site is bosstoons.com - my other 128 domains i won't tell you.


              Your maserati.. Hotwheels or Matchbox?

              I mean.. really.. i'm not mad at ya. Let's just open a new thread and discuss SEO w/o all that bull accusations. I'm all in!
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              • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
                Originally Posted by ChrisByrns View Post

                howtodrawings.com? ..i got that site pushed to me from a friend 2 months ago. There was *nothing* on it back then. And if you have a closer look, there IS nothing much on it right now. It's just an experiment (to rank for "draw graffiti letters"). My cartoon design site is bosstoons.com - my other 128 domains i won't tell you.


                Your maserati.. Hotwheels or Matchbox?

                I mean.. really.. i'm not mad at ya. Let's just open a new thread and discuss SEO w/o all that bull accusations. I'm all in!
                I don't care about your other 128 domains.

                The Maserati is a 2005 Maserati Cambiocorsa. Nero Carbiano on Beige with Nero accents. A nice amount of performance modifications that have it with almost 600 HP.

                I wish I could say I care if you are mad at me... but I don't respect you one bit, so it doesn't affect me whatsoever.

                Thanks though!
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    The customer may be satisifed under false pretenses, for now. What about in a year's time when they figure out that $350 did squat for their business - I doubt they will be happy then.

    I get where you're coming from, and I sense that you and I look at things in much the same way, usually. However, my issue is not about price - it's about not delivering the results the client is expecting, which is, any at all.

    If the site doesn't rank now, it won't rank because of a title change.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author PaidToEmpower
      Right on, Dan. I get where you are coming from as well, and yes, I think we do probably look at things quite similarly.

      Agreed that it won't rank because of a title change.

      My hope is that the customers DO get results, in some way shape or form that makes them feel great.

      When I bought my first car, I went with my Dad and bought a used VW bug. I remember it like it was yesterday (won't say the year to date myself) as we drove off the lot...I said to him "Well, I hope we didn't get ripped off, I feel like we got a good car at a good price". He smiled and said, "if you feel good, then it will be good".

      It was about a 17 year old kid, her Dad, and a "new" car. Guess it is all about perceptions and personal perspective on whether or not a deal is good or not.

      Totally appreciate your perspective and your "looking out for..." approach and attitude. Cathy
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  • Profile picture of the author TheMagicShow
    The Op has laid out a good plan and congrats to him, but by simply having a keyword or phrase in the title tag or meta section shall not do much unless they start doing some proper off page seo optimization.

    True google will rank you much better with the keyword/phrases in the title tag, but it still take a lot more work to get and keep the results.
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  • Profile picture of the author Coolneter
    thanks for this information chris. Too bad i dont yet know
    how to seo good or i would try it.
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by Coolneter View Post

      thanks for this information chris. Too bad i dont yet know
      how to seo good or i would try it.
      Don't worry bro! Chris doesnt either!!!

      Just go to them and use words like "potential" and "can"

      That way, after you get their money all you say is "I said POTENTIALLY you would be better off!"

      Horray for feeding on ignorance and hope!
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    MouseAndMice (Ali?):

    Your success is admirable - but one thing a few decades in business has taught me - never burn your bridges. You can disagree with people but still be civilized about it. Being rude and calling names is never good - especially in a public forum - this is visible to the world and may come back to haunt you some day.

    Your own site has some serious issues right now - like promising the tale of your success which has yet to be delivered (hint: write the freebie BEFORE you put up the optin form!). And yes, I filled out the form to send it my 3 friends - and no one has gotten the promised 'life story' yet.

    But I am not going to accuse you of being a scam artist or a crook.

    You brought up many valid points that I agree with - but the way you brought them up lacks professionalism.

    We are all, at the end of the day, business people here. We can agree with each other, we can disagree with each other - but how we go about it can either build relationships or destroy reputations.

    Again, I prefer to build relationships. You might want to try it too.

    Melody

    Personally, even if I don't agree with someone on one thing - I often learn something from them later - but only if we are still 'speaking' to each other.
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    • Profile picture of the author MouseandMice
      Originally Posted by Melody View Post

      MouseAndMice (Ali?):

      Your success is admirable - but one thing a few decades in business has taught me - never burn your bridges. You can disagree with people but still be civilized about it. Being rude and calling names is never good - especially in a public forum - this is visible to the world and may come back to haunt you some day.

      Your own site has some serious issues right now - like promising the tale of your success which has yet to be delivered (hint: write the freebie BEFORE you put up the optin form!). And yes, I filled out the form to send it my 3 friends - and no one has gotten the promised 'life story' yet.

      But I am not going to accuse you of being a scam artist or a crook.

      You brought up many valid points that I agree with - but the way you brought them up lacks professionalism.

      We are all, at the end of the day, business people here. We can agree with each other, we can disagree with each other - but how we go about it can either build relationships or destroy reputations.

      Again, I prefer to build relationships. You might want to try it too.

      Melody

      Personally, even if I don't agree with someone on one thing - I often learn something from them later - but only if we are still 'speaking' to each other.
      Melody... You should have gotten it... It has been up from the second the TAF script was live! PM sent

      While I agree with your point of "not burning bridges," I am not to great at that. If I find someone unethical, regardless of the scenario, I bring it up.

      Granted, there are better ways to do it than most... but when I was looking at the forum, I saw a total lack of ethics, not just from the poster, but from all the people who jumped on the bandwagon.
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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    A few points to share:

    It's true that many SEO companies charge huge amounts for very little, but I still suggest you offer your customers more value. eg why not give them 30 links instead of only 6 so they at least have a chance of ranking well. It won't take much more effort on your part.

    You will spend more than 10 minutes per client. This estimate of 10 minutes is completely unrealistic in my experience. Make it at least a few hours assuming all goes smoothly. There's phone calls, emails, billing and all this takes time.

    But the basic point of this post is true - you can make good money by offering simple services that we take for granted.

    12 months ago I charged a local business $500 for writing and distributing one article to a number of directories. This simple activity took the site from 1 visitor per day to 30 highly targeted visitors per day and the traffic still comes in one year later. It's made the business thousands of dollars so they got excellent value and I made good money for a short work day (actually it was over 2 days because I had to wait for the article to be approved by the client).



    Andrew
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by rondo View Post

      (...)
      But the basic point of this post is true - you can make good money by offering simple services that we take for granted.

      12 months ago I charged a local business $500 for writing and distributing one article to a number of directories. (...)

      Andrew
      Yep, i could even throw in some articles and distribute them. (Btw, thanks for that idea =) ..I'm not saying my service is the holy grail of internet marketing.. heck, i could even lower the price a little bit but it's just like you say: the IM crowd takes those services for granted - "normal" (and that term's not meant to be disrespectful) simply don't know about those things and if they agree that someones IMPROVES their current website for xxx dollars - i don't see anything unethical. Man, i keep on justifying my services while i don't even need to.

      I'm just puzzled this thread started so much controversy.
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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    I'm not questioning your ethics, but I might question the value you're currently providing. You certainly don't want the customer to question the value you've provided because if they do they won't come back. It's easy for you to over-deliver here so I think you should.

    Andrew
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by rondo View Post

      I'm not questioning your ethics, but I might question the value you're currently providing. You certainly don't want the customer to question the value you've provided because if they do they won't come back. It's easy for you to over-deliver here so I think you should.
      Yep, you're right!
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  • Profile picture of the author Micheal Perkins
    Chris, I'm looking forward to you putting up your sales letter that you used to contact the businesses. I like the idea and have already been thinking about some things to do in my local area to make some money offline. Before I read your post I was not thinking about how I could do this, now I am so thank you.

    That said, I think it is time for you to ignore MouseandMice.

    Melody summed it up best and his attitude has left a bad taste in my mouth from the start. If he had any problems with your post he could have expressed them in a more professional manner than he has.

    Instead he has behaved in a manner that I, and I'm certain many others, find childish. The old saying "You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" comes to mind.

    I've not seen anything from him in this post that goes toward helping anyone, the only information he has posted is to point out how great he is, or to degrade you. Ignore the insults for the childish rants they are and move on.

    There are people in this thread that are wanting to learn from you what you did here. Instead we're having to watch and him argue back and forth.

    Please get focused again and back on topic so you can teach those of us who recognize that you have something of value to offer.
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Micheal Perkins View Post

      Chris, I'm looking forward to you putting up your sales letter that you used to contact the businesses. I like the idea and have already been thinking about some things to do in my local area to make some money offline. Before I read your post I was not thinking about how I could do this, now I am so thank you.

      That said, I think it is time for you to ignore MouseandMice.

      Melody summed it up best and his attitude has left a bad taste in my mouth from the start. If he had any problems with your post he could have expressed them in a more professional manner than he has.

      Instead he has behaved in a manner that I, and I'm certain many others, find childish. The old saying "You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" comes to mind.

      I've not seen anything from him in this post that goes toward helping anyone, the only information he has posted is to point out how great he is, or to degrade you. Ignore the insults for the childish rants they are and move on.

      There are people in this thread that are wanting to learn from you what you did here. Instead we're having to watch and him argue back and forth.

      Please get focused again and back on topic so you can teach those of us who recognize that you have something of value to offer.
      Thank you for those words! .. Yes i WILL focus again and start a new thread, laying out everything . This may take some time (like i said earlier, i'm from germany and i will have to translate everything) but i will definitely share my stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    I don't think the way Ali has handled this has been especially good, but then again, the OP was being just as childish as he was.

    I agree that this has become a bit of a mud-slinging match, and that's unfortunate. However, Ali certainly has proven that he has balls, ethics, and the skills to back it up. He's probably more successful than most of us (possibly all of us, if you think back to when YOU were eighteen) and whilst his attitude can come across as a little arrogant, I don't think he really means it that way.

    For me, at least, diplomacy is gradually coming with years and experience. I'm only a few years older than Ali but when I was 18 I definitely made a lot more enemies than I do now.

    However, he's making a good point, and one that was backed up by several respected posters (Andrew Cavanagh for one, and if ANYONE has the right to talk about stuff, it's him).

    Charging $350 for a service that will not produce results, and pretending it will, is not cool. If he really was "great at SEO" he would know very well how useless this strategy is - inbound links are probably far more important. I'm no SEO guru, but I've ranked for some minor keywords, ones with a few million competition, so I know a little bit.

    His way of looking at things - that SEO companies are charging $800 so he's better - is either wrong or flawed. Ripping people off is still ripping people off, even if it's not as bad. The other alternative is that the SEO companies, for their "basic analysis" go really in depth, find out the "buiying" keywords, look at ALL on-page factors AND off-page factors.

    I don't know. I'm not an SEO company. But most companies have to provide value to stay in business.

    Come on guys. If it was YOUR business, would you feel happy flushing $350 down the toilet for no results?

    Let's be sensible here, and look at things objectively. Making money is fantastic, but not at the cost of your soul, or your morals.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      I
      Charging $350 for a service that will not produce results, and pretending it will, is not cool. If he really was "great at SEO" he would know very well how useless this strategy is - inbound links are probably far more important.
      Again.. HOW can you claim this doesn't produce results.. i said i provided extra services. I optimized their sites for "put researched term here".. i linked to their sites using this term as anchor. i overdelivered and linked from MY (established) sites.. Again.. You are basing your opinion on my roughly translated oneliner. It's okay, i agree, perhaps my first post didn't portray the whole picture BUT, please.. in the middle of the thread i said what i actually did - and will say it again: I

      1) analyse their site
      2) do keyword research
      2.1) deliver results in a document, plus explanations plus "how to guide"
      3) change title since it's the most important thing when it comes to on page seo.
      4) change description, in order to improve CTR
      5) change page structure (link "related words" to "related-words.html" instead of "page1.html")
      6) change content on the site (when applicable.. h-tags, alt attributes, strong, italics, rephrasing of sentences)
      7) social bookmark the site using "relevant term" as anchor

      DO NOT and i repeat.. DO NOT call me a scammer.

      The fact that this stuff takes me 10 or 20 mins (because i have the routine) doesn't mean it's not worth 350. Period.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Chris,

    I apologize for missing your earlier post where you outlined everything.

    The strategy you have outlined certainly sounds like it may actually produce results.

    I guess the language barrier got in our way a little, but there are lots of people who would happily take money for no results.

    I retract my earlier statements... and again, I apologize.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisByrns
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      I guess the language barrier got in our way a little..
      That could be the problem.. plus (and i agree on that) my first post + thread title was a bit sketchy. But (and that's what i'm trying to say since the middle of this thread) i really know my stuff and it's definitely NOT my intention to **** over my clients! Yes, they agreed on what i said and since they're mom and pop companies i don't tell 'em all that mumbo jumbo - i basically tell them "i improve your website, so you can get more customers".

      Oh and, no need to apologize - we're here to learn from each other, right?
      cheers!
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    I can tell you this from first hand experience:

    Simple onpage SEO can have a HUGE effect on a local site when your targeting local search phrases.. I've gotten sites from not being anywhere in the serps at all for the targeted local phrase(s), to darn near the top of page 1 - with only onpage seo.

    And regarding pricing: would a $350 investment be worth it if it returned 1k a month in additional profits? how about 10k? Or only $50 a month? $350 is cheap.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ray Erdmann
      Wow..I should have gotten out the pop-corn before coming into this thread... :-)

      My take on all this..

      Chris: After reading this entire thread and realizing EXACTLY what you did, in my opinion, was worth whatever you wanted to charge. Good job and hopefully I'll see that thread started about SEO from you soon!

      MouseandMice: Great success story! Nice! Have you also purchased your own home too, or are you parking that overweight beast Maserati you bought in garage of your condo? ;-)

      And even though you may have your own opinions about what Chris did, it was pretty obvious that your lack of 'personal communication skills' came shining through. Maybe as you get older, you'll realize what not to do in certain situations. Also, regarding your 'signature' file...you may want to consider re-wording it a little and remove the words FREE AND LITERALLY...

      Sorry..but the one thing I can't stand about sigs here on the WF is when someone says "FREE" but then wants something FROM ME in exchange..that's not FREE....and then to go to your site and have to jump through even more hoops (after already giving out name/emails) to get what you ADVERTISED as "LITERALLY FREE" is BULLSH**

      Why not just post the link to a PDF file for us here on the WF and let us get it that way..like a good majority of WF members do..seeing as the WF was such a great asset to you getting into IM..as you say???

      But heck..this is just my opinion!

      And I agree with not burning your bridges...it's quite possible that your little outburst in this public thread could come back and prevent that one 'supper affiliate' from ever doing a JV with you..again, I could be wrong, but you never know!


      Ray
      Signature

      "Whether you think you can or not...you'll always be 100% right!" |

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  • Profile picture of the author emigre
    MouseandMice:

    I absolutely agree with you.

    For those who think this is perfectly legit, imagine if your mom and dad bought into this guy's scheme - would you still be egging him on to do a WSO?
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  • Profile picture of the author ironman34
    Are you making any residual income with your business? Its seems like you are making out pretty good. Good Job
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  • Profile picture of the author nonyforum
    is it possible
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Elliott
    10 minutes for 6 socail sites + keyword research + website edit?
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    • Profile picture of the author Micheal Perkins
      Originally Posted by Scrotus View Post

      10 minutes for 6 socail sites + keyword research + website edit?
      No, you missed part of one of his previous posts. The 10 minutes he calculated was for the actual website work. Opening the site up and making the fix to the title, description and keywords.

      He had more time involved that he did not really calculate, because when he wrote the post he only considered the time he actually worked on the site as his investment.

      What he left out of his time frame was the time it took to write a sales letter, the time spent researching the businesses he targeted, the time he spent doing keyword research, etc.
      Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    OK, here's the deal guys. As some of you know, I handle the internet marketing for a car dealership. The dealership's website did not show up for any relevant search terms at all for our metro area. It's located in a small suburb outside the city, and most people had no idea there was even a dealership out there.

    Simple onpage SEO got us to the top 3 results on the first page for all of our chosen keywords, and increased our sales by about 20 vehicles a month.

    The dealer could have paid me over 100k for just that, and it still would have paid for itself in a rather short period of time.

    So yes, simple onpage seo can have a dramatic effect on local sites targeting localized search phrases.

    Here's another example from the same business:

    1) Just last month I identified a new KW phrase related to 'used cars' for us to target, as we were not in the first 10 pages of results for any used car related searches (that's when i gave up looking). I simply added the phrase to the end of our title and description, and a week later we were on the first page.

    2) I also added some deep pages in the site targeting our competitors names - not much luck with google yet, but we actually outrank one of these dealers for their own business name on yahoo!

    So some of you can scream 'scam' all you want - the truth is, basic onpage seo CAN have a huge impact on local search phrases, and a huge impact on that business. In the case of the car dealer, it was worth over a $million over the past few years.
    Signature

    -Jason

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    • Profile picture of the author jmidas
      Hi, I hate to change the topic of this thread away from this 3 page argument, but I do have a question for Jason.

      Jason, I really liked one of the things you said:

      "2) I also added some deep pages in the site targeting our competitors names - not much luck with google yet, but we actually outrank one of these dealers for their own business name on yahoo!"

      I am curious about two things, if you can share:

      1) can you further descbribe what you mean by "deep" pages and also what you did to optimize for your competitors?

      2) do you think you run any risk of copyright/trademark issues when doing this?

      I read this and just thought what a great idea it was, but then realized i wasn't really sure if I understood what you meant.

      Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
    I've read the "bashing" of the original poster of this and chuckled at times, cried for him at others. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I'll chime in with my thoughts.

    I run an Offline business in addition to my Online business. I have been a residential builder for many years, building very large, eh expensive, and nicely outfitted homes. (This explains why I'm focused on Online business now) During these past few years, I charged what many would deem exorbitant prices for the trim work and detail work that I did in these homes. Did I rip off my homeowners? Am I a scam artist?

    Absolutely not. I charged what the market would bear. If I charged less, I didn't do them any favors and I definitely didn't do myself any favors. I only minimized the perceived value of my work. Charging less than the standard for the market may seem like a smart business decision to the uninitiated. Believe me, it's not smart business. It only reduces your worth to the buyer. In fact, some people will not do business with you because you are less expensive. So you lose on two fronts. Competitive is good. CHEAP is bad.

    We recently quoted a trim job at what should be a reasonable price (It was a $14,000 trim job by "old" standards, but we gave him a price of $12,000). The next closest quote was about $10,000 and if given the opportunity, we would probably do it for that just to have something to do rather than sitting at home. However, the homeowner received a quote for $5,500 and decided to go with that quote. Are we willing to work for 4 weeks to make $5,500 - split two ways to make just under $2,800. Not really, we can possibly pick up two or three smaller jobs, complete them and make more during that 4 weeks. Let the low bid have the job.

    This guy is working and we are not. But, what he has done is lower the perceived value for everyone in the area. This homeowner will tell everyone how inexpensive his trim job costs and recommend this guy everywhere. That is until he figures out what he'll get for that $5,500. But, as my friend from Australia says, "In the absence of other factors, price is all the consumer has to make a decision on." If this guy does a great job, he's cut the price for everyone that comes in contact with this customer. If he does a terrible job, we'll never get a chance to come in and correct it because the customer's pride prevents him from admitting that he made a mistake. Finally, can he really deliver a quality product to the consumer by undercutting so much? I say not - I know what was involved in the job.

    But, this customer was only willing to pay the lower amount. Did we scam the customer with our quote? No. If he had decided to go with us, did we scam him then? No. We would have delivered a quality product at an agreed upon price. That's called a free market economy.

    I'm sure someone it thinking "Yeah, but the trim work is a quantifiable product whereas web site SEO is not." to which I respond "YEAH, RIGHT!!!!". Don't believe for a moment that the customer can quantify the value of your product - be it physical (trim work, stone work, auto repair, etc.) or virtual (SEO, traffic, or other web site functions). The customer is ignorant of the value. If the realized the value, they would not be hiring us to do it, they would be doing it themselves and either saving the money or making the money like we do. The customer is busy doing what they know how to do - running their business. That applies where it's doing nails, cutting hair, serving meals, or selling groceries. The bottom line is that the customer can't take time away from their business that makes them money in order to do something that costs them money (because they're not doing what makes them money).

    Plus, just having a web site is really costing them money - unless they are doing things to monetize that web site. For the value of a non ranking web site, they might as well abandon their online presence and save that money for moving their business equipment when and if it closes. The reality is that a web site should do things to enhance the business rather than cost the business. What is the lifetime value of a sigle client? If that web site is optimized to bring in one, two, five, or ten more clients a month, then the web SEO expert has proven his worth. Of course, keeping the client or getting them to return is then up to the busienss owner.

    Sorry to ran to long, but I'm "in the zone" today as I'm doing some marketing and writing myself.

    JDD
    Signature

    James Dunn
    Athens, GA
    http://wpmu.org/author/jamesdunn

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  • Profile picture of the author mmpieri
    Your strategy is good but did you provide value for money?
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  • Profile picture of the author CPAffiliate
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author WilliamM
      There are those who want to milk the cash cow without any real concern for the care and well-being of the cow. Then there are those whose priority is caring for the cow because they know that the quality and longevity of production depend on how well they care for the cow.

      I was just reading through the "Working with Dairy Cows" guide by the Holstein Foundation. Long before a heifer can be milked, a lot of time and energy are invested in proper feeding, adequate housing, vaccinating, hoof care, etc.

      This just might be an appropriate guide for anyone wanting to learn the principals of raising up a healthy, productive and long-lasting cash cow.
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