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Warrior Plus New Rules

by TimCastleman
190 replies
Hey guys -

I am a big fan of Warrior Plus and have made a lot of money as an affiliate through it but today I logged into my account and was told I had to approve PayPal direct access to Warrior Plus in order to use it.

Check out what he wants me to give access to:

Search your transactions for items that match specific criteria and display the results.

This permission enables Lexico LLC to search your transaction history for the following specific criteria and display the results:

a consumer's email address
a date, or range of dates
transaction status
transaction amount
an invoice number

Use Express Checkout to process payments.
This permission enables Lexico LLC to take the following actions:

Grant permission for PayPal Express Checkout which enables you to receive payments from buyers.
Obtain your Pal ID (PayPal assigned identification number) and location of your merchant account.
: ----
Search your transactions for items that match specific criteria and display the results.
This permission enables Lexico LLC to search your transaction history for the following specific criteria and display the results:

a consumer's email address
a date, or range of dates
transaction status
transaction amount
an invoice number

* MIKE HAS SINCE CHANGED THIS POLICY AND NO LONGER REQUIRES ACCESS TO TRANSACTIONS TO USE HIS PLATFORM - THANKS MIKE!


Create and manage Recurring Payments.

This permission enables Lexico LLC to create and manage recurring payments with customers, execute payments, and make refunds to customers based on the agreements.


So basically he can go into my account and look at everything I've ever done - WSO or not.

Am I the only one who has concerns about allowing anyone (not related to my business) this much access??

Again I like Warrior Plus but this is a concern.

Tim
#100% #access #business #rules #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Yeah that's a bit weird, but isn't JVZoo the same way as well?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Two things:

    1. JVZoo and other platforms require most of this now. (More on this in a minute)

    2. The troubling part is the access to transactions. I'm not sure why he would need it.

    JVZoo has a split payment platform, meaning that all money goes to the vendors account and then is paid out immediately. (So affiliates still get immediate payment)

    My theory is that WSO Pro is moving to a system similar to this.

    This means he would need permission for you to give refunds and such. Why he would need such detailed transaction data, I don't know.

    The frustrating part of all this is that there was no announcement, nor any explanation as to WHY he required this change.

    Just a message saying "you need to do this".

    He's going to be hearing about it at the WF event. I know that much.

    Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
      I am very concerned about access to ALL transactions. JVZoo doesn't require that, and I don't understand why it's needed.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by J Elizabeth Dize View Post

        I am very concerned about access to ALL transactions. JVZoo doesn't require that, and I don't understand why it's needed.
        This is why I'm scratching my head...he could've announced all this before hand, with an explanation as to why he needed to do it.

        I've been with WSO Pro for 2 years now. Last year I bought the year long license because that is how much I supported the platform.

        Now, though, things are changing.

        WSO Pro is outdated due to new competitors in the market. Problems handing big launches is causing lost sales, and now this comes up...

        I'm thinking JVZoo or Digiresults may be my next platform of choice.

        Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
      No, JVZoo does not ask for any where NEAR the amount of data that he is asking for.

      With the permissions he is asking for, he can search every single transaction he wants in your paypal account, pull all the information about the transaction, emails, addresses, etc anytime he wants.

      a consumer's email address
      a date, or range of dates
      transaction status
      transaction amount
      an invoice number

      That's anything and flat out dangerous. Biased or not, there's no way I'd let anyone have that kind of access to any information they want like that.

      You can see what JVZoo requests here       You will see it is FAR less than what is being asked for.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post


        With the permissions he is asking for, he can search every single transaction he wants in your paypal account, pull all the information about the transaction, emails, addresses, etc anytime he wants.
        That's what made me say "No". As it stands, I'm off W+ for now.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

        With the permissions he is asking for, he can search every single transaction he wants in your paypal account, pull all the information about the transaction, emails, addresses, etc anytime he wants.
        There's a resolution issue here. While Mike undoubtedly only wants the right to search transactions made through WSO Pro, probably for better stats and easier management tools, there's no way for him to request that. It's all or nothing.

        Personally, I trust Mike and am totally cool with this. I understand if other people aren't, and when I looked at what he was requesting I went "ooh, my, people are not going to like that one bit."

        But I clicked "approve" anyway. Among other things, because the worst he can do is scan my PayPal account. What's he going to do, laugh at me for buying so much anime crap on Amazon? Please.

        I do, however, totally get that a lot of people are really not okay with this. So while I didn't take the same position as Kevin Riley, I understand why he took that position and have absolutely no criticism for him on the matter.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

        No, JVZoo does not ask for any where NEAR the amount of data that he is asking for.

        With the permissions he is asking for, he can search every single transaction he wants in your paypal account, pull all the information about the transaction, emails, addresses, etc anytime he wants.

        a consumer's email address
        a date, or range of dates
        transaction status
        transaction amount
        an invoice number

        That's anything and flat out dangerous. Biased or not, there's no way I'd let anyone have that kind of access to any information they want like that.
        I feel like this is a political election here, or something!

        Way to spin it Bryan, but I think the fact that I have ONE different permission than you (TRANSACTION_SEARCH instead of TRANSACTION_DETAILS) doesn't really constitute a huge gap or "flat out dangerous".

        In any case, like I mentioned before, I have removed it for now and will revisit it later. (So for now I am actually requesting LESS info - how about that!? )

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

          (TRANSACTION_SEARCH instead of TRANSACTION_DETAILS) doesn't really constitute a huge gap or "flat out dangerous".
          Well I won't say dangerous because that is pretty much up to whoever's hands it is in...

          But there is a pretty big difference in those.

          Transaction_details can only give you the details of a specific transaction number you have logged.

          Transaction_search let's you pull pretty much any transaction you want...

          I would say those two are pretty different in a big way.

          Sorry just the old programmer coming out of me...
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          • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
            Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


            Way to spin it Bryan, but I think the fact that I have ONE different permission than you (TRANSACTION_SEARCH instead of TRANSACTION_DETAILS) doesn't really constitute a huge gap or "flat out dangerous".

            There was no spinning needed, there is actually quite the BIG difference in those. If there wasn't or it wasn't that big of a deal you certainly wouldn't have removed it as fast as you did.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
              Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

              There was no spinning needed, there is actually quite the BIG difference in those. If there wasn't or it wasn't that big of a deal you certainly wouldn't have removed it as fast as you did.
              Not quite true, Bryan. TRANSACTION_DETAILS actually gives MORE information that TRANSACTION_SEARCH (hence the word DETAILS)

              But, I removed it because I care about my members, and I simply don't need it just yet. We'll get it figured out, though.

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
                Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

                Transaction_details can only give you the details of a specific transaction number you have logged.

                Transaction_search let's you pull pretty much any transaction you want...
                I'll simply leave it at that and let everyone else decide if that's the kind of access they want to give out.

                p.s. Got nothing against you either. All these adjustments, features and upping our games is nothing but a benefit to everyone else
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                I look forward to seeing the updates.

                Sounds promising!


                Daniel
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

              Funny to see you jump in and make a comment like that about it, there's few more than a few of us who know your motives for saying so
              My motives ... lol. I use Warrior Plus, so I'm interested in Warrior Plus threads and news. This is a thread about Warrior Plus I believe.

              You own JVZoo in part, so it's more than obvious what your motives are.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post


      Just a message saying "you need to do this".

      He's going to be hearing about it at the WF event. I know that much.

      Rob

      Very troubling considering I never even received a message like that. Wonder what's going on here!
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  • Profile picture of the author rusty1027
    I'm getting ready to launch my first WSO and i was flip flopping back and forth as to whether go with Warrior Plus or JVZoo. This might just make up my mind for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    It scares me that I have to give more permissions to a "rotating" payments system, then a system that makes payments to affiliates "on my behalf". (That's how you could look at Adaptive Payments)...

    And is there anywhere, where Mike announces this or justifies his need for these permissions?
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

      And is there anywhere, where Mike announces this or justifies his need for these permissions?
      Nope.

      Maybe he's working on an adaptive payment system too.

      Of course, we're all just guessing until an announcement is made, which I hope is shortly...(as in, tonight/tomorrow)

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        Nope.

        Maybe he's working on an adaptive payment system too.

        Of course, we're all just guessing until an announcement is made, which I hope is shortly...(as in, tonight/tomorrow)

        Rob
        Rob,

        The permissions are much different then the permissions asked for by JVZoo, as Zim's already mentioned...

        I doubt even Mike knows the impact of what these permissions are.
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        Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

          Rob,

          The permissions are much different then the permissions asked for by JVZoo, as Zim's already mentioned...

          I doubt even Mike knows the impact of what these permissions are.
          Well, technically they are the same - just much broader.

          With these permissions, he could do an adaptive payment system, I believe.

          Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Ugh yeah please tell me I didn't give JVZoo permission to do anything like that? In fact like a dumbass, I didn't pay a hell of a lot of attention to what I DID give permission for, and now how do I check that and delete those permissions if I decide I don't want to grant them?

    What W+ is asking for is ridiculous. NEVER.
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    • Profile picture of the author AmandaT
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Ugh yeah please tell me I didn't give JVZoo permission to do anything like that? In fact like a dumbass, I didn't pay a hell of a lot of attention to what I DID give permission for, and now how do I check that and delete those permissions if I decide I don't want to grant them?

      What W+ is asking for is ridiculous. NEVER.
      This is the link mentioned above about what permissions you gave to JVZoo: Why does JVZoo need this access to my PayPal account? - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software

      I believe you can go into PayPal to reverse the permissions.
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    • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Ugh yeah please tell me I didn't give JVZoo permission to do anything like that? In fact like a dumbass, I didn't pay a hell of a lot of attention to what I DID give permission for, and now how do I check that and delete those permissions if I decide I don't want to grant them?

      What W+ is asking for is ridiculous. NEVER.
      Tiff,

      JVzoo has a great FAQ that explains all the permissions which they request:

      Why does JVZoo need this access to my PayPal account? - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software

      Caleb
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      Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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    • Profile picture of the author JOSourcing
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Ugh yeah please tell me I didn't give JVZoo permission to do anything like that? In fact like a dumbass, I didn't pay a hell of a lot of attention to what I DID give permission for, and now how do I check that and delete those permissions if I decide I don't want to grant them?

      What W+ is asking for is ridiculous. NEVER.
      Tiffany,

      Go to Paypal > My Account > Profile > My Settings

      Click each link under "More account settings" (A link might say, 'Service Providers')

      Click "Remove" for each point of access.

      Click "Yes, Remove."
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  • Profile picture of the author Jwil1025
    It seems JV Zoo is getting more popular every day....
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    I believe Warrior Plus needs a complete over haul it's self... it's not laid out very well, looks like things were added on the fly and coded anyplace to fit on the page.

    So did you expect Mike to announce this and get feedback from anyone. I would not expect it seeing what I see.

    JvZoo does something like this I don't understand why myself they say more than Warrior Plus but still not sure why.

    I would like to hear why...

    lets say a fake sale was made... a fake sale in the system (1000.00) which they could easily do, then click a button to refund which they have your info to do so because they have the right to refund and BAM 1000.00 taken out of your account.

    Lets say you're making good sales... then they make a few refunds happen because you gave them access that allows them to would you know if they just sent some refunds to a paypal account they have on the side.

    If you did notice they say ohhhhh a glitch must have been ... they cry glitch

    or worst

    someone hacks them and just starts a mad refund to everyone as you gave them access to your account and they have access to refund anyone.

    Like to know how they would protect me if they get hacked if they can hit a button and refund any one that could get into admin could do the same.

    Hmmm

    Richard
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  • Profile picture of the author Cindy Battye
    That is just ridiculous... maybe he is just expecting everyone to do what people do with the iTunes TOS and just click 'accept' ... either way - no way in hell he is getting access to my entire paypal account details/history. JVZoo for me for sure.

    - Cindy
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  • Profile picture of the author ccstudio
    I reluctantly gave him access because I do a lot of business and have several of my own WSO's listed there and I didn't want to lose .but yeah it sent up a lot of red flags for me I was going over to put one of campaigns on JVZoo to try them out. And WSO has a lot of things that it can't do. You would think for the amount of money that goes through they could get some more features added and maybe that is what this about, but I agree he could have at least said "Hey guys this is what I am doing and this is why I need this.

    Brad Dixon
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  • Profile picture of the author Lina T
    I have worked with Paypal API and W+ does not have access to your whole history - they have access to information that matches their search criteria. The Paypal API is pretty specific on what criteria can be searched so if they have an email address, they can access matching transactions (whether or not they came from W+), but they can't just access your whole history for the life of your account.

    Also, this verbiage is pretty standard for all that use Paypal API, so any processer will likely have this requirement if they are providing the sorts of services W+ is providing.

    Not saying people should not be concerned, but not for these reasons. I am a Paypal hater so I will jump on any bandwagon that is hating on Paypal (check my past posts for evidence!), but in this case, this is sort of standard given this situation.

    W+ is really just staying with the times. If y'all are concerned about privacy and all that, don't do 100% of your transactions through Paypal - it is like grocery shopping at a gas station - use Paypal only for those projects and transactions that do not have any other options (like WSOs) ...

    Anyway, that is my two cents ... (and just my opinion!)
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    • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
      Originally Posted by Lina T View Post

      I have worked with Paypal API and W+ does not have access to your whole history - they have access to information that matches their search criteria. The Paypal API is pretty specific on what criteria can be searched so if they have an email address, they can access matching transactions (whether or not they came from W+), but they can't just access your whole history for the life of your account.

      Also, this verbiage is pretty standard for all that use Paypal API, so any processer will likely have this requirement if they are providing the sorts of services W+ is providing.

      Not saying people should not be concerned, but not for these reasons. I am a Paypal hater so I will jump on any bandwagon that is hating on Paypal (check my past posts for evidence!), but in this case, this is sort of standard given this situation.

      W+ is really just staying with the times. If y'all are concerned about privacy and all that, don't do 100% of your transactions through Paypal - it is like grocery shopping at a gas station - use Paypal only for those projects and transactions that do not have any other options (like WSOs) ...

      Anyway, that is my two cents ... (and just my opinion!)
      "Range Of Dates", is not transaction based like the permission explained within JVZoo is..

      I think you might be confused at what he's actually requesting access to.

      Caleb
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      Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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  • Profile picture of the author tjmiller
    Personally, I was already won over by JVZoo anyway. I kept my W+ account, just in case someone I really liked used them for a product, but I think this is the move that closes my account with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author SirBertram
    So the only thing W+ isn't asking for is our first born child?
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    Who owns JVZoo ?


    Where did you see it on their site?

    Thanks
    Richard
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  • Profile picture of the author UMS
    Definitely the biggest issue here is absolutely no notification and no explanation of the required changes.

    That's simply not good enough.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz


    First off, I gotta say, I love my WarriorPlus members...

    Next - man some of you folks are paranoid! (Fair enough, the internet can be a crazy place.)

    It seems most have issue with the "Transaction Search" parameter. I totally understand.

    The issue here is with Paypal. They make it unclear as to exactly what they allow for each access point they have, and then they make it hard to get at just the data you want.

    In any case, anyone who knows me knows for certain I am not looking to get access to information that is not related to WSO Pro, or use it in any unethical way.

    Like "Lina T" said above, this is simply the only good mechanism Paypal provides to get access to the data needed to make the system more useful to sellers and affiliates alike.

    We simply would like to be able to see what the status of any transaction that comes through our system is, so that we know for CERTAIN if there is a dispute/claim filed (or if it is resolved), a refund made, an echeck pending, etc... All things we can't see for certain right now without these permissions, and all things that make it harder for everyone involved to do business.

    But again, I can understand the cause for concern, and if you wish, I am willing to give an exception for the "TRANSACTION SEARCH" (edit: this change has been made) portion of the permissions for now, since it is not technically needed just yet. I just didn't want to have to ask for permission again later, so I just thought I would get them all setup and ready now.

    I will be sending out an email to all members tomorrow regarding these changes, as well another pretty exciting announcement I am calling "WarriorPlus March Madness"!

    Have a good one everyone!

    Mike

    PS: As a few others have mentioned, much of this is pretty standard these days due to how the Paypal API works. Since we are changing to some of the newer APIs, these changes were required.
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    • Profile picture of the author UMS
      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


      I will be sending out an email to all members tomorrow regarding these changes, as well another pretty exciting announcement I am calling "WarriorPlus March Madness"!
      I think the main point why warriors have expressed their concern is that you have made the changes and then plan on notifying members.

      It would have made much more sense to notify members BEFORE making the changes.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by UMS View Post

        I think the main point why warriors have expressed their concern is that you have made the changes and then plan on notifying members.

        It would have made much more sense to notify members BEFORE making the changes.
        I understand what you are saying, but that would have resulted in a much worse situation.

        I needed to test the system on real people, but if I had emailed I would have got TONS of people coming at the same time. Doing the the 'slow' way like this allowed me to tweak things, get feedback (like this thread), and make sure everything was just right before tens of thousands of members came in and then we had an issue.

        So, while things didn't go perfectly (as evidenced by this thread), I think it worked out for the best.

        Thanks for your feedback.

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Clifford
          Mike

          I think everything in this thread just stems from lack of communication. I don't mean that in a harsh way - I'm a big user of W+ and love the fact that its moving forward.

          But as many here will agree we've seen performance problems and issues and now an unannounced change and I never hear anything about the evolution of w+, a newsletter or infrastructure improvements etc...

          The other networks are continually encouraging a dialog with their vendors.. so that way we have trust and understanding with changes and issues and are in return supportive of their networks.

          I think if you could do the same (you could have even started this thread for example).. you will have the majority of vendors on your side.

          Anyway - great to see your moving to adaptive payments.. and I look forward to meeting you at Raleigh.

          Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author dcrodwell
      I for one get a "good vibe" from Mike. Everything I see indicates a competent guy with an outstanding program.

      As a purchaser of WSOs, I have never liked the purchase and access through JVZoo. It always seems like more work and less convenience. Warrior+ is smooth as glass and they have always been responsive.

      I am launching my first WSO in a few weeks and I will go with Mike, Warrior+ and Lexico.
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    • Profile picture of the author diapteg
      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post



      First off, I gotta say, I love my WarriorPlus members...

      Next - man some of you folks are paranoid! (Fair enough, the internet can be a crazy place.)

      It seems most have issue with the "Transaction Search" parameter. I totally understand.

      The issue here is with Paypal. They make it unclear as to exactly what they allow for each access point they have, and then they make it hard to get at just the data you want.

      In any case, anyone who knows me knows for certain I am not looking to get access to information that is not related to WSO Pro, or use it in any unethical way.

      Like "Lina T" said above, this is simply the only good mechanism Paypal provides to get access to the data needed to make the system more useful to sellers and affiliates alike.

      We simply would like to be able to see what the status of any transaction that comes through our system is, so that we know for CERTAIN if there is a dispute/claim filed (or if it is resolved), a refund made, an echeck pending, etc... All things we can't see for certain right now without these permissions, and all things that make it harder for everyone involved to do business.

      But again, I can understand the cause for concern, and if you wish, I am willing to give an exception for the "TRANSACTION SEARCH" (edit: this change has been made) portion of the permissions for now, since it is not technically needed just yet. I just didn't want to have to ask for permission again later, so I just thought I would get them all setup and ready now.

      I will be sending out an email to all members tomorrow regarding these changes, as well another pretty exciting announcement I am calling "WarriorPlus March Madness"!

      Have a good one everyone!

      Mike

      PS: As a few others have mentioned, much of this is pretty standard these days due to how the Paypal API works. Since we are changing to some of the newer APIs, these changes were required.
      What a Conundrum:

      If I may ask - What transpired to intiate this?.

      And

      "We simply would like to be able to see what the status of any transaction that comes through our system is, so that we know for CERTAIN if there is a dispute/claim filed (or if it is resolved), a refund made, an echeck pending, etc... All things we can't see for certain right now without these permissions, and all things that make it harder for everyone involved to do business."

      With gathering this information - how is it going to be used?

      dispute/claim filed (or if it is resolved) a refund made, an echeck pending, etc

      - Ok now you have this info. What's next?. What do you do with it?

      :::::Just asking:::::
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by diapteg View Post

        What a Conundrum:

        If I may ask - What transpired to intiate this?.

        And

        "We simply would like to be able to see what the status of any transaction that comes through our system is, so that we know for CERTAIN if there is a dispute/claim filed (or if it is resolved), a refund made, an echeck pending, etc... All things we can't see for certain right now without these permissions, and all things that make it harder for everyone involved to do business."

        With gathering this information - how is it going to be used?

        dispute/claim filed (or if it is resolved) a refund made, an echeck pending, etc

        - Ok now you have this info. What's next?. What do you do with it?

        :::::Just asking:::::
        Glad to answer.

        First off, let me say that we are no longer requesting the same permission as we had previously, and we likely will NOT need to, based on some things I learned today.

        But, what we are trying to do is simple: allow everyone to provide better service to their customers, and allow us to make sure everyone is fulfilling their responsibilities.

        Sometimes we get support tickets that people didn't get access to their purchase. If we knew there was an echeck pending, or a dispute filed, this would be easily explainable. As it is now, we have to troubleshoot, guess, and contact third parties (sellers or affiliates) to be sure.

        Refunds are a must, and the permissions will allow vendors to refund their customers, even if an affiliate was paid for the sale. This just makes sense.

        If disputes and/or refund requests are being filed and being ignored by those who received the funds, then we can send out warnings and take appropriate action.

        My main goal with WarriorPlus has ALWAYS been making it as easy to use as possible, and as safe a place as possible, where everyone was treated properly, where affiliate theft and fraud wasn't rampant, where refund rates are low, and customer support is good.

        We'll keep doing our best to make the Warriorplus system great, and giving you the best features possible.

        Hope that is helpful.

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    Does anyone know if this is something that is mandatory by some new law...

    is RAP (Rapid Action Profits) users going to have to have their affiliates do this?

    Or is it just if you want to use paypals Adaptive Payments system?

    Does DigiResults do this or not?

    thanks
    Richard


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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

      Does anyone know if this is something that is mandatory by some new law...

      is RAP (Rapid Action Profits) users going to have to have their affiliates do this?

      Or is it just if you want to use paypals Adaptive Payments system?

      Does DigiResults do this or not?
      This is not a "law", just the way Paypal works with its advanced APIs (like Adaptive Payments and ExpressCheckout).

      Digiresults definitely does this - in fact they were the first in our space to do it this way.

      Hope that helps.

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    Here is the kicker... I was on the phone and clicked YES... and didn't want to after I saw all the access it gives. Too late... just did the same thing i yell at other people for for hitting -->next--->next... lol.

    Now I can't remove the access through PayPal... It says Fatal Error every time I try.

    Called them and they said to talk to a rep tomorrow, but that it sounded like there was something wrong with the implementation.

    So maybe Mike can check this? Cause it is kinda messed up you can't revoke it afterwards.

    But yeah Digi and JVZoo required it too... They all have to do it for the adaptive payments system to work right. But JVZoo and Digi didn't need anywhere near that extent of access... that was just a crazy amount of access.

    EDIT: oh look I hit 2k posts finally lol

    EDIT AGAIN: Thanks someone showed me the round about way to do it. So I am good now.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Mike, I think W+ needs to very quickly change over to the split payment setup because it's just old school having these rotated payments still. Wouldn't it greatly increase the chances of your account coming under review when, in Paypals eyes, a whole number of different people (your affiliates) are all selling and collecting small payments for one sales page/product? That's what most fraud looks like and we don't want to imitate that pattern.

    While we have you, is this something on the cards in the near future?

    Just curious... (and thanks for sticking your head in the thread -- it's appreciated!!)
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Mike, I think W+ needs to very quickly change over to the split payment setup because it's just old school having these rotated payments still. Wouldn't it greatly increase the chances of your account coming under review when, in Paypals eyes, a whole number of different people (your affiliates) are all selling and collecting small payments for one sales page/product? That's what most fraud looks like and we don't want to imitate that pattern.

      While we have you, is this something on the cards in the near future?

      Just curious... (and thanks for sticking your head in the thread -- it's appreciated!!)
      I don't have anything specific to announce yet, but just know that changes are coming, and they are good.

      Will share more when I can.

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        I don't have anything specific to announce yet, but just know that changes are coming, and they are good.

        Will share more when I can.

        Mike
        Geez Mike, I'd be pretty pissed if changes were coming and they were BAD :-)

        Sounds good. We shall wait with open wallets!!!

        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        (So for now I am actually requesting LESS info - how about that!? )
        Haha. Classic!
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Geez Mike, I'd be pretty pissed if changes were coming and they were BAD :-)

          Sounds good. We shall wait with open wallets!!!
          haha, so true.

          (and you can put your wallet away)
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Wheeler
    Looking forward to seeing your email tomorrow Mike, and indeed the changes coming to Warrior Plus.

    Especially interested to know if you are moving to an adaptive payments method or whether you just want this for Express Checkout.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenster
    You can bet your bottom dollar I will be following this thread carefully and I eagerly await the email tomorrow.

    Now here's the good thing...

    Over the past few months there has been a lot of attention and buzz around WSO payment/affiliate systems. W+ in many ways was a game changer for this forum, for both customers, sellers, and affiliate alike. So a lot of thanks is owed to Mike.

    Other processors have popped up. That's a good thing. While I have seen a lot of negativity surrounding all platforms, I think it's important to realize that we are at the brink of a lot of good things here. Competition breeds innovation. We are already seeing the main players in the payment/affiliate system space innovate and they will continue to do so.

    W+, JVzoo, Digi and the rest will become stronger, more flexible, and better for the customer, seller, and affiliate. Competition has a funny way of expediting innovation.

    Same goes with the PP madness that people are going crazy over. This is a good thing in my eyes. It will ultimately help our industry and force us to be more smart and more resilient...a good thing.

    Call me an optimist but there's just been so much hating recently. I'll end this with some smiles...

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    • Profile picture of the author Anthony Aires
      Originally Posted by Kenster View Post

      You can bet your bottom dollar I will be following this thread carefully and I eagerly await the email tomorrow.

      Now here's the good thing...

      Over the past few months there has been a lot of attention and buzz around WSO payment/affiliate systems. W+ in many ways was a game changer for this forum, for both customers, sellers, and affiliate alike. So a lot of thanks is owed to Mike.

      Other processors have popped up. That's a good thing. While I have seen a lot of negativity surrounding all platforms, I think it's important to realize that we are at the brink of a lot of good things here. Competition breeds innovation. We are already seeing the main players in the payment/affiliate system space innovate and they will continue to do so.

      W+, JVzoo, Digi and the rest will become stronger, more flexible, and better for the customer, seller, and affiliate. Competition has a funny way of expediting innovation.

      Same goes with the PP madness that people are going crazy over. This is a good thing in my eyes. It will ultimately help our industry and force us to be more smart and more resilient...a good thing.

      Call me an optimist but there's just been so much hating recently. I'll end this with some smiles...
      Well said my man...I too am excited and enjoying the courtside seat to capitalism developing LIVE!

      My only request is another processor besides crap pal I believe we would all sleep better at night knowing there's an alternative processor we can switch to on demand.

      Grateful to be here, and for the community!

      Anthony Aires
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Anthony Aires View Post

        My only request is another processor besides crap pal I believe we would all sleep better at night knowing there's an alternative processor we can switch to on demand.

        Grateful to be here, and for the community!

        Anthony Aires
        If only there was a good alternative, Anthony. I have yet to find any service that comes close to the features and power of Paypal.

        Definitely ying and yang, isn't it?

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Mohsin Rasool
          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

          If only there was a good alternative, Anthony. I have yet to find any service that comes close to the features and power of Paypal.

          Definitely ying and yang, isn't it?

          Mike
          Hi Mike,

          There is 2Checkout!
          I look forward the day when 2Checkout can be used to accept payments in WSO
          using your system.

          Regards,
          Mohsin
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by Mohsin Rasool View Post

            Hi Mike,

            There is 2Checkout!
            I look forward the day when 2Checkout can be used to accept payments in WSO
            using your system.

            Regards,
            Mohsin
            2Checkout doesn't come close to the ease of use that Paypal offers and you would lose all the instant affiliate commissions. There are very few other payment alternatives that allow instant payments to product owners and affiliates and are trusted by so many buyers.
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            • Profile picture of the author Ryan Shaw
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              2Checkout doesn't come close to the ease of use that Paypal offers and you would lose all the instant affiliate commissions. There are very few other payment alternatives that allow instant payments to product owners and affiliates and are trusted by so many buyers.
              Yeah; I don't see an alternative to paypal other than setting up your own aff system with your own merchant account and you still have to pay fees and gathering aff's is more work to recruit without a shared system like W+, JV Zoo. I've looked into other options and although what we have isn't perfect; I get paid well and I'm happy.

              In any case, these platforms keep getting better and the competition is only fueling that. So, we win!

              I'm WSO of the Day today! Thanks Mike! You don't get that on your own Aff system

              The big downside to my product launch yesterday was:

              30 minutes of downtime on the Warrior Forum
              Comments on thread that eroded sales

              Next launch; I'm eliminating these by launching on my own website. The WF is constantly going down & W+ too. Thankfully, W+ hasn't yesterday or today.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mohsin Rasool View Post

            Hi Mike,

            There is 2Checkout!
            I look forward the day when 2Checkout can be used to accept payments in WSO
            using your system.

            Regards,
            Mohsin
            Hey Mohsin, How are you brother?

            The problem with 2CO (and I haven't looked at them recently) is that they don't offer the kind of API access that PayPal does.

            The other issue with 2CO (and this drove me nuts for a couple of years) is that they tend to flag a lot purchases as potentially fraudulent. If you're using their passback system (IPN), it screws up order fulfillment because they don't update the passback data the way PayPal does.

            Unfortunately, until these other companies get their collective acts together, developers are limited in what they can reasonably offer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rodrigo Werner
        Originally Posted by Anthony Aires View Post

        Well said my man...I too am excited and enjoying the courtside seat to capitalism developing LIVE!

        My only request is another processor besides crap pal I believe we would all sleep better at night knowing there's an alternative processor we can switch to on demand.

        Grateful to be here, and for the community!

        Anthony Aires

        Well I COMPLETLY agree with you bro! I have been banned twice on paypal...both times they told me I had no appeal ( well I guess that didnt work out the way they planned) and all because I had too much small payments in such a small time...and It really FREAKS ME OUT...that I may or may not have my business shutdown for the third time, simply because they "DONT LIKE MY BUSINESS TYPE" that's just WRONG...and not only shut me down, but to keep my money locked away for 6months! So I completly agree with you...If I could get away from paypal...I WOULD...I dont know, but maybe you (mike) could get something like clickbank...(not saying they are the best...) but just saying to have something go to one main account and then have an option to have it sent to you by check, wire transfer, or even paypal...I think THIS WAY...would be best for EVERYONE...cause the affiliate would choose which way is better...Dont know if its the best idea...it's just something I see that people are ok about doing it with clickbank...so why not do it with W+?....

        Just saying...

        Let's all think about somthing to do...cause I REALLY dont want my business to be in the hands of some dude in a desk pissed at his life, and suddenly he sees that he doesnt like my business and decides to shut me down... NOT COOL...

        So instead of all the hate, I doesnt everyone here give an idea to make it all better, Im sure MIKE would read it and take his own conclusions and do his best to fit it to W+...If he doesnt then we could burn his house down :p what you guys think?

        so far I think he is just trying to get something done BETTER and FASTER...

        Cheers
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        • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
          Originally Posted by Rodrigo Werner View Post

          Well I COMPLETLY agree with you bro! I have been banned twice on paypal...both times they told me I had no appeal ( well I guess that didnt work out the way they planned) and all because I had too much small payments in such a small time...and It really FREAKS ME OUT...that I may or may not have my business shutdown for the third time, simply because they "DONT LIKE MY BUSINESS TYPE" that's just WRONG...and not only shut me down, but to keep my money locked away for 6months! So I completly agree with you...If I could get away from paypal...I WOULD...I dont know, but maybe you (mike) could get something like clickbank...(not saying they are the best...) but just saying to have something go to one main account and then have an option to have it sent to you by check, wire transfer, or even paypal...I think THIS WAY...would be best for EVERYONE...cause the affiliate would choose which way is better...Dont know if its the best idea...it's just something I see that people are ok about doing it with clickbank...so why not do it with W+?....

          Just saying...

          Let's all think about somthing to do...cause I REALLY dont want my business to be in the hands of some dude in a desk pissed at his life, and suddenly he sees that he doesnt like my business and decides to shut me down... NOT COOL...

          So instead of all the hate, I doesnt everyone here give an idea to make it all better, Im sure MIKE would read it and take his own conclusions and do his best to fit it to W+...If he doesnt then we could burn his house down :p what you guys think?

          so far I think he is just trying to get something done BETTER and FASTER...

          Cheers
          Rodrigo,

          If you mean "guess that didn't work out the way they planned" to mean that you just opened new accounts... Well, the new ones weren't banned for "business type", but rather for opening a new account after one had already been closed.

          Important point..

          The reason that many people do not use a structure with later pay (something like Nanacast - which I use in some cases), is that in the internet marketing niche, many affiliates want "instant gratification" (they want their money now), which is why most programs are instant commission whether it be adaptive or rotating.

          Also, I'm not sure if your aware, but as Lexico LLC (the company that runs WarriorPlus - ie MikeLantz) is based in the United States... if he took any of your payments in (not as an affiliate) he would need W9's, and W8 BEN's, for painful tax returns, since he is making the payouts... Something that I couldn't see him doing for $19 a WSO.. (Also means he has to take the risk for every action you make for 180 days...)

          Important note:

          had too much small payments in such a small time...and It really FREAKS ME OUT...that I may or may not have my business shutdown for the third time, simply because they "DONT LIKE MY BUSINESS TYPE"
          Any payment processor has to do "risk management", which is to say, mitigate the risks that their business has. One of the things that many people don't realize, and PayPal discusses in the Aires call -- is that they are responsible for EVERY payment you get for 180 days.. 100% liable. (hence the 180 day hold).

          If you have NO RECORD of income -- or go from $2k/month or whatever (not saying you did... just saying in general), to $10k/week or even $5k in a few days... It looks very sucpicious.

          I don't agree with the immediate shut downs, and I don't agree with their position on the warrior forum, but you can't deny that it's SCARY for any processor to have someone go from processing little to processing major amounts...

          Caleb
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          • Profile picture of the author Rodrigo Werner
            Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

            Rodrigo,

            If you mean "guess that didn't work out the way they planned" to mean that you just opened new accounts... Well, the new ones weren't banned for "business type", but rather for opening a new account after one had already been closed.

            Important point..

            The reason that many people do not use a structure with later pay (something like Nanacast - which I use in some cases), is that in the internet marketing niche, many affiliates want "instant gratification" (they want their money now), which is why most programs are instant commission whether it be adaptive or rotating.

            Also, I'm not sure if your aware, but as Lexico LLC is based in the United States... if he took any of your payments in (not as an affiliate) he would need W9's, and W8 BEN's, for painful tax returns, since he is making the payouts... Something that I couldn't see him doing for $19 a WSO.. (Also means he has to take the risk for every action you make for 180 days...)

            Important note:



            Any payment processor has to do "risk management", which is to say, mitigate the risks that their business has. One of the things that many people don't realize, and PayPal discusses in the Aires call -- is that they are responsible for EVERY payment you get for 180 days.. 100% liable. (hence the 180 day hold).

            If you have NO RECORD of income -- or go from $2k/month or whatever (not saying you did... just saying in general), to $10k/week or even $5k in a few days... It looks very sucpicious.

            I don't agree with the immediate shut downs, and I don't agree with their position on the warrior forum, but you can't deny that it's SCARY for any processor to have someone go from processing little to processing major amounts...

            Caleb
            Hey mate, Nah I didnt open new accounts, I just had to waste 2 weeks of my time to explain them EVERYTHING and what happends and why it happend! that's how I got it unlocked!

            And yeah I know (BLEEP) about payment processing I just gave an idea to do something SIMILAR to clickbank, since most people are "confortable" working with clickbank and havin an option to receive payments... ...If its possible or not...then I dont know hahah...Its just something I saw that it works, that could work for w+
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            • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
              Originally Posted by Rodrigo Werner View Post

              Hey mate, Nah I didnt open new accounts, I just had to waste 2 weeks of my time to explain them EVERYTHING and what happends and why it happend! that's how I got it unlocked!

              And yeah I know (BLEEP) about payment processing I just gave an idea to do something SIMILAR to clickbank, since most people are "confortable" working with clickbank and havin an option to receive payments... ...If its possible or not...then I dont know hahah...Its just something I saw that it works, that could work for w+
              Oh ok cool :-), guess PayPal loves ya.... What I don't get is how clickbank keeps its account when products like "stripped down profits" dominate its marketplace.. (a while back)
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              • Profile picture of the author Rodrigo Werner
                Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

                Rodrigo,

                If you mean "guess that didn't work out the way they planned" to mean that you just opened new accounts... Well, the new ones weren't banned for "business type", but rather for opening a new account after one had already been closed.

                Important point..

                The reason that many people do not use a structure with later pay (something like Nanacast - which I use in some cases), is that in the internet marketing niche, many affiliates want "instant gratification" (they want their money now), which is why most programs are instant commission whether it be adaptive or rotating.

                Also, I'm not sure if your aware, but as Lexico LLC (the company that runs WarriorPlus - ie MikeLantz) is based in the United States... if he took any of your payments in (not as an affiliate) he would need W9's, and W8 BEN's, for painful tax returns, since he is making the payouts... Something that I couldn't see him doing for $19 a WSO.. (Also means he has to take the risk for every action you make for 180 days...)

                Important note:



                Any payment processor has to do "risk management", which is to say, mitigate the risks that their business has. One of the things that many people don't realize, and PayPal discusses in the Aires call -- is that they are responsible for EVERY payment you get for 180 days.. 100% liable. (hence the 180 day hold).

                If you have NO RECORD of income -- or go from $2k/month or whatever (not saying you did... just saying in general), to $10k/week or even $5k in a few days... It looks very sucpicious.

                I don't agree with the immediate shut downs, and I don't agree with their position on the warrior forum, but you can't deny that it's SCARY for any processor to have someone go from processing little to processing major amounts...

                Caleb
                Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

                Oh ok cool :-), guess PayPal loves ya.... What I don't get is how clickbank keeps its account when products like "stripped down profits" dominate its marketplace.. (a while back)
                Dude, Get something straight...PAYPAL HATES OUR BUSINESS TYPE...the person on the phone (when I got banned the last time on the SAME account) even told me:

                "I WILL KEEP A CLOSE EYE ON YOUR TRANSACTIONS"

                lol...

                Dont you just love the fear of having your business in someone's hands? And IF they decide it's not cool, they just shut you down and you go cry to anyone that wants to listen? lol

                Paypal doenst like me, doesnt like anything to do with IM...and they made that very clear with Aires's call...

                I still dont know WHY they unlocked me...lol...even more TWICE...but still they did, and im 110% sure it's not because they love me hahaha

                so this is why I said, that if I can, I would change my payment processor anytime... And that's why I mentioned clickbank!


                But dont want to drag this on about me...

                just saying we need to find a way to get away from paypal...and that I agreed with anthony's post! as I was on when all that happend so i was one of the first to know
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    • Profile picture of the author Mario Brown
      Originally Posted by Kenster View Post

      You can bet your bottom dollar I will be following this thread carefully and I eagerly await the email tomorrow.

      Now here's the good thing...

      Over the past few months there has been a lot of attention and buzz around WSO payment/affiliate systems. W+ in many ways was a game changer for this forum, for both customers, sellers, and affiliate alike. So a lot of thanks is owed to Mike.

      Other processors have popped up. That's a good thing. While I have seen a lot of negativity surrounding all platforms, I think it's important to realize that we are at the brink of a lot of good things here. Competition breeds innovation. We are already seeing the main players in the payment/affiliate system space innovate and they will continue to do so.

      W+, JVzoo, Digi and the rest will become stronger, more flexible, and better for the customer, seller, and affiliate. Competition has a funny way of expediting innovation.

      Same goes with the PP madness that people are going crazy over. This is a good thing in my eyes. It will ultimately help our industry and force us to be more smart and more resilient...a good thing.

      Call me an optimist but there's just been so much hating recently. I'll end this with some smiles...
      Oh yes I couldn't have said it better and I feel exactly the same way.

      Competition is a great thing for the end user benefiting from Special Offers, Discounts and more importantly new improved features.

      Love it.

      Mario
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

    I feel like this is a political election here, or something!

    Way to spin it Bryan, but I think the fact that I have ONE different permission than you (TRANSACTION_SEARCH instead of TRANSACTION_DETAILS) doesn't really constitute a huge gap or "flat out dangerous".

    In any case, like I mentioned before, I have removed it for now and will revisit it later. (So for now I am actually requesting LESS info - how about that!? )

    Mike
    No reason to feel like a politician. We all want what is best for the members of the respective sites. Mike, I started out on the Warrior Forum using your system, so I wish nothing but the best to you, but I don't think there was any spinning going on. Zim replied to somebody that posted JVZoo asks for the same permissions and that was simply not true. Also, you are not requiring less information. The personal info you are getting trumps what JVZoo requests and JVZoo doesn't ask for PayPal IDs, like you are. The transaction details you spoke of in a different post are about specific transactions made through the JVZoo system only. Search (what you had) means the ability to search all transactions in the user's PayPal history. This is according to PayPal's own words. Much different.

    This is neither here nor there. No need to feel like politicians. No need to needle each other in this thread. No need to make "spin" remarks. We all want the best for Warriors.

    I wish you the best.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      From a customer's viewpoint:

      A consumer's email address + a date, or range of dates + transaction status + transaction amount + an invoice number = a lot about your customers.

      Some of you guys seem a little cavalier about handing over information just to grease the system.

      And Mike's quote..."In any case, anyone who knows me knows for certain I am not looking to get access to information that is not related to WSO Pro, or use it in any unethical way"... reminds me that I'm still getting SPAM from an Aweber breach a while back. Shrimp happens.

      The point being that it appears there are some trade-off here that may look innocuous on the surface but may in fact hold the seeds to unintended consequences. And the chief one being the creation of a portal that would make a very good target for the unscrupulous.

      Do those things ever happen?

      Almost everyday, apparently.

      Like I said, just a perspective from a customer, not a vendor.

      ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author ejb2059
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        From a customer's viewpoint:

        A consumer's email address + a date, or range of dates + transaction status + transaction amount + an invoice number = a lot about your customers.

        Some of you guys seem a little cavalier about handing over information just to grease the system.

        And Mike's quote..."In any case, anyone who knows me knows for certain I am not looking to get access to information that is not related to WSO Pro, or use it in any unethical way"... reminds me that I'm still getting SPAM from an Aweber breach a while back. Shrimp happens.

        The point being that it appears there are some trade-off here that may look innocuous on the surface but may in fact hold the seeds to unintended consequences. And the chief one being the creation of a portal that would make a very good target for the unscrupulous.

        Do those things ever happen?

        Almost everyday, apparently.

        Like I said, just a perspective from a customer, not a vendor.

        ~Bill
        Well said Bill and I agree

        In today's society, protecting one's information is of the highest priority!

        If they can hack the Pentagon, they can hack anything!

        Rev
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
    But EBR, your response was so politician like! (Its like when the candidate says one thing in an ad, and then is campaign advisor does an interview and softens it up. Well done!)

    Anyway, I have obviously been following the presidential election a little too much lately!

    I am really not concerned with Zim's post at all, just having a little fun after a long day working.

    Have a good night!

    Mike

    PS: I'm Mike Lantz and I approve this message.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Munch
    Its great news to see WarriorPlus moving forward. I'm very thankful for this system which allowed me to break into this space, and the brilliant innovations that WarriorPlus has brought to our marketplace.

    There's definitely room for a lot more and I'm loving the drive forward by Digiresults, Mooshpay, WarriorPlus and JVZoo.

    All platforms have their pros and cons, and its awesome to see more innovations going forward.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Renouf
      Great thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author azjoemartin
        Originally Posted by James Renouf View Post

        Great thread.
        I agree with James Renouf and second the motion. Great thread!

        I believe most misunderstandings are from a lack of communication.

        I'll leave it at that.
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    With allowing the Digiresults, Mooshpay, WarriorPlus and JVZoo ... access to being able to refund is this going to be another clickBank how they refund for any reason?

    If I decide not to refund someone (for who knows why) on a digital product and then say one of the owners of these sites can just go in and do the refund any ways?

    What concern is it of theirs if there is a dispute over a transaction?

    It's my customer they don't need to know this info?

    The sale happens from paypal A to paypal B so it is between these two people why would the affiliate software person need to be involved and need any info...


    I just don't see the need for any access or no one has said why clear enough yet.

    Sure if you want to use paypals Adaptive Payments paypal says you need access.

    paypal has other systems that don't need this kind access.

    If someone hacked into one of the systems above a lot of bad crap could happen... as you get bigger and bigger you're more hack worthy.

    especially if hackers know they can get access to search your whole paypal data.

    Richard

    No answer yet Who owns jvzoo ?
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    • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

      No answer yet Who owns jvzoo ?
      I think it's Brian Zimmerman and Brian E. Rose but I may be open to correction.

      Di
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

      With allowing the Digiresults, Mooshpay, WarriorPlus and JVZoo ... access to being able to refund is this going to be another clickBank how they refund for any reason?

      If I decide not to refund someone (for who knows why) on a digital product and then say one of the owners of these sites can just go in and do the refund any ways?
      At Jvzoo, only the sellers will issue refunds. Buyers pay the sellers direct to the seller's PayPal account, therefore the seller should be and is in charge of their own refund policy. JVZoo will not interfere and issue a refund on your part. The only exception is if there is something fraudulent happening.

      I just don't see the need for any access or no one has said why clear enough yet.
      JVZoo uses PayPal's adaptive payment system. This allows the buyer to always pay the seller of the product. If there is an affiliate involved, PayPal automatically initiates the payment from the seller to the affiliate. This happens instantly, at the time of purchase.

      The seller is also in control of the refunds. If a buyer purchases your product for ten dollars and you immediately sent the affiliate a five dollar commission, when a refund is made that five dollars comes back to the seller's account and the full ten dollars goes from the seller back to the buyer. This is the reason why access is granted. JVZoo does not require any access further than the minimum amount required by PayPal to make this run.

      Just so you know, you can't just throw together an adaptive payment system and start taking orders and ask for permissions from your users. There is a lengthy process in working with PayPal to get approved. They test up and down until they are satisfied that everything is on the up and up and the code is written the way it should be. The approval process takes between weeks and months. JVZoo went through this approval process with PayPal.


      If someone hacked into one of the systems above a lot of bad crap could happen... as you get bigger and bigger you're more hack worthy. especially if hackers know they can get access to search your whole paypal data.
      JVZoo does not have any access to anything in your PayPal account. No banking info. No credit card info. Not even your home address or the addresses of your customers.

      No answer yet Who owns jvzoo ?
      We've always been transparent about this. The site was founded by Bryan Zimmerman, Chad Casselman, and myself. It is owned by a corporation consisting of several shareholders in the marketing and technology spaces. Chad is employed as the lead programmer. Zim and I are employed in operations and marketing, respectively. We have other employees in the programming and support departments, as well.

      I hope that answers your questions. Feel free to hit me up if you have more.

      Cheers,
      EBR
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      • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        At Jvzoo, only the sellers will issue refunds.
        Can JVzoo do a refund?



        The seller is also in control of the refunds. If a buyer purchases your product for ten dollars and you immediately sent the affiliate a five dollar commission, when a refund is made that five dollars comes back to the seller's account and the full ten dollars goes from the seller back to the buyer. This is the reason why access is granted. JVZoo does not require any access further than the minimum amount required by PayPal to make this run.
        What happens if the affiliate does not have the money in their paypal account?

        Does the fee jvzoo collect go back also?

        Who is in charge of the forum at jvzoo I have questions and see a lot of other questions no answered?

        thanks EBR

        One thing I hope changes is the products that seem to make product of the day.

        It seems like the one that are picked are just ones that would make the 3rd party money and not researched used and tested and tried before it is promoted. I know it would take a while to do this but some of the products are real crap that make the product of the day.

        Thanks Mike for taking the time to answer questions also.

        Richard
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        • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
          Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

          Can JVzoo do a refund?





          What happens if the affiliate does not have the money in their paypal account?

          Does the fee jvzoo collect go back also?

          Who is in charge of the forum at jvzoo I have questions and see a lot of other questions no answered?

          thanks EBR

          One thing I hope changes is the products that seem to make product of the day.

          It seems like the one that are picked are just ones that would make the 3rd party money and not researched used and tested and tried before it is promoted. I know it would take a while to do this but some of the products are real crap that make the product of the day.

          Thanks Mike for taking the time to answer questions also.

          Richard
          Richard,

          I have processed quite a few sales through JVZoo now.

          1) The only time JVzoo would ever issue a refund is if they knew the purchase was fraud... Ie: The affiliate was fraudelent, and they issue the refund before the affiliate has time to pull the money out etc.

          2) You should only approve affiliates who you know will always keep the money in their account. Unfortunately, if the affiliate does not have the money in their account -- there's no way of really getting it... I've only ever had this happen once, and with the introduction of the new "delayed payments", as long as you put people on delayed -- you have no chance of that :-)

          3) JVZoo fees are refunded when a refund is processed.

          I have no idea what the answers to your other questions are, but I'm sure EBR or Zim will stop by soon to answer for you..

          Those are just my quick answers as a user of the system
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          • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
            Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

            Richard,

            2) You should only approve affiliates who you know will always keep the money in their account. Unfortunately, if the affiliate does not have the money in their account -- there's no way of really getting it... I've only ever had this happen once, and with the introduction of the new "delayed payments", as long as you put people on delayed -- you have no chance of that :-)

            3) JVZoo fees are refunded when a refund is processed.

            I have no idea what the answers to your other questions are, but I'm sure EBR or Zim will stop by soon to answer for you..
            Thanks Caleb

            So can someone sign up as an affiliate pp id email1 then use pp id email2
            ( you can have more than one PP email in the same account )

            And buy the product getting a discount with one PP account?

            So what happen when you refunded and the money was not there?


            Thanks
            Richard
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            • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
              Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

              Thanks Caleb

              So can someone sign up as an affiliate pp id email1 then use pp id email2
              ( you can have more than one PP email in the same account )

              And buy the product getting a discount with one PP account?

              So what happen when you refunded and the money was not there?


              Thanks
              Richard
              1) Not with the same account.. They'd have to have TWO different PayPal accounts. the payment is NOT based on the e-mail, but the account (Your PayPal account has to connect to JVZoo)..

              2) You get an error message from JVZoo, you get the fees returned by JVZoo, and your refund is issued. Unfortunately you lose whatever the commission amount was, because it cannot be retrieved.

              Caleb
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              • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
                Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

                1) Not with the same account.. They'd have to have TWO different PayPal accounts. the payment is NOT based on the e-mail, but the account (Your PayPal account has to connect to JVZoo)..

                2) You get an error message from JVZoo, you get the fees returned by JVZoo, and your refund is issued. Unfortunately you lose whatever the commission amount was, because it cannot be retrieved.

                Caleb
                This is why JVZoo added the new delayed payment feature. Only affiliates that you know should be added as instant payment affiliates. The ones you do not know well enough should be set to delayed payment status. There is a video about this on the page where you accept affiliates.

                This feature was added to avoid the situation you described. It was also designed as a part of our fraud prevention system.
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                • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
                  Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

                  This is why we have added the new delayed payment feature. Only affiliates that you know should be added as instant payment affiliates. The ones you do not know well enough should be set to delayed payment status. There is a video about this on the page where you accept affiliates.

                  This feature was added to avoid the situation you described. It was also designed as a part of our fraud prevention system.

                  I have had several products in these newer 3rd party systems and yet have to face a refund (besides CB that's why I'm done with them any longer)

                  "make a good product with great support close any reasons why a refund would happen and none do happen"

                  Because I have not had any refunds as of yet don't really know how it works

                  I see refund rates that are higher than a normal conversion rate

                  I would like to see a these products knocked out of the system..

                  One product in JVZoo in the top ten who has a refund rate over 5%

                  Most people don't have 5% conversion rate

                  Refund rates 4.34%, 3.07% , 4.71% , 13.84% 12.10% , 5.84% , 13.33% 10% 20% 21.05% 27.27% 29.59 and many many more...

                  amazing 33.33 % refund rate over a 30% refund rate

                  why is this product still in the JVzoo system ?

                  I'm not going to mention the products with 50 some % and the 100% refund?

                  all of you 3rd party Make some standards please.

                  Stop promoting crap for the product of the day also.

                  My test product has over 50 sales Zero % refunds over 10% conversion rate and because it is not a make 30,000 in 10 min does not have a chance for product of the day against products that have these high refund rates, but then again all my affiliates get to keep there money.

                  anyways I have not had a refund yet in any of the 3rd party programs so how does :

                  On W+ split payment how is the refund done?

                  Would the whole amount fall on the seller or does the seller contact the affiliate if a refund is requested?

                  Richard

                  HIGHER STANDARDS LOWER PRICES
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              • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
                You start one little thread, then get locked out of the WF (silly me) and this happens.

                Mike addressed the changes and the features we all seemed to have a problem with so for that I am grateful.

                I also know that Mike didn't mean anything malicious with his new rules and it's part of the growing process of Warrior Plus.

                Thanks for posting here Mike - and for addressing the concerns.

                Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    Warrior+ site looks horrible. Amazing for a site that claims it's process almost 30 million dollars it hasn't bothered to make a even remotely appealing website. I've never used the tools myself but considering what the guys asking and the way the site looks, i'd 100% pass. You all are intelligent individuals, i'm sure you'll go with what makes sense for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    I've been working with the PayPal API for a couple of years now and I've worked directly with members of their development team. I'd like to think I've got some expertise with the API, especially in how it is used in IM.

    That said, for Mike L., Bryan and others, there is only one Permission you really need to have your users grant - that's for Refunds. The only reason you even need this Permission is because of how refunds are processed in Chained Payments (the "Split" that takes place to pay affiliates and partners).

    All of the transaction information you need related to sales made through your respective platforms is available through the IPN and through the Payment Details API - you only need the original Pay Key for this - not user permissions to search transactions.

    At the risk of sounding like a shameless self-promotion, we recently got PayPal approval for our own platform, which performs all of the same functions as yours do. We're not in any particular hurry to launch it, as we're undergoing an extensive beta, so I won't mention anything more about it other than it's coming.

    I do think it's important to mention though that the underlying functionality of PayPal's API is such that it is very safe, secure and integrated properly, virtually foolproof. I know this firsthand, having spent the last 6 months personally leading the development of our system and having had extensive discussion on API security and functionality with PayPal's Development Team.

    As Mike L. said, the API can be very confusing when first working with it. When I saw this thread, my first thought was that was the reason he was asking for so many permissions to be granted.

    While it's reasonable to be concerned, I think we all need to take a deep breath and step back from becoming overly paranoid about the changes. While I strongly disagree with a few points about W+ (mainly the WSO of the Day), I don't for a minute believe that Mike L. would ever intentionally do anything underhanded related to the access he's requesting from his users.

    Bear in mind too that you can log into your PayPal Premiere or Business account and remove any permissions you have previously granted third-parties. Doing so will most likely prevent you from using those platforms, but you, as the account holder, do have control over it.

    Although we're all competitors in this area, the core functionality of these platforms is essentially identical. And from what I've seen to date, I think all of the folks developing/operating these systems have amply demonstrated they're trustworthy and safe to do business with...something we shouldn't lose sight of.
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  • Profile picture of the author DebbieB
    Can anyone clarify something for me please?

    I launched a WSO on W+ yesterday. I later saw the same notice and clicked to allow those permissions. This morning I disallowed them.

    How does not allowing those permissions affect whether I'll get paid for my WSO?

    What do I need to understand that I don't? It's not at all clear to me.

    Debbie
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Goldberg
    What amazes me is the one thing I haven't seen any WSO seller or affiliate bring up:

    Mike - what would make you think it's OK to shut down everyone's ability to accept payments for products they're selling or promoting through your system without sending an email first?

    Your action cost people THOUSANDS of dollars in sales yesterday.

    Making a change like the one you just put into place should never have been done without days of prior notice to the people that have all made you a ton of money.

    It's the worst customer service mistake I've ever seen in all my time doing business online.

    You should be embarrassed Mike...
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      What amazes me is the one thing I haven't seen any WSO seller or affiliate bring up:

      Mike - what would make you think it's OK to shut down everyone's ability to accept payments for products they're selling or promoting through your system without sending an email first?
      Have to agree on this one. Had someone inform me yesterday that my sale button gave a server error. I immediately switched it over to DLGuard, which I have been using for years and back in business.

      For all the problems with all the systems I've seen mentioned here, plus the additional cost that all of them add to WSOs, I'm very much inclined to rely on DLGuard as my primary payment/processing solution. Buy it once and it keeps on working for all of your products with no interruptions and no BS about what information it accesses.

      And DLGuard doesn't spam the bezeejus out of you with offers when you use it like another platform.
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        For all the problems with all the systems I've seen mentioned here, plus the additional cost that all of them add to WSOs, I'm very much inclined to rely on DLGuard as my primary payment/processing solution. Buy it once and it keeps on working for all of your products with no interruptions and no BS about what information it accesses.

        And DLGuard doesn't spam the bezeejus out of you with offers when you use it like another platform.
        there you go - a fantastic solution and cost-effective too...I like it!
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        • Profile picture of the author John Rogers
          Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

          there you go - a fantastic solution and cost-effective too...I like it!
          DLGuard is great. I've been using it for years.

          It however does not give you access (yet) to the Warrior + and JVZoo affiliate networks. HUGE factor there unless you don't want an affiliate program.
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    • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      What amazes me is the one thing I haven't seen any WSO seller or affiliate bring up:

      Mike - what would make you think it's OK to shut down everyone's ability to accept payments for products they're selling or promoting through your system without sending an email first?

      Your action cost people THOUSANDS of dollars in sales yesterday.

      Making a change like the one you just put into place should never have been done without days of prior notice to the people that have all made you a ton of money.

      It's the worst customer service mistake I've ever seen in all my time doing business online.

      You should be embarrassed Mike...
      Did he ever shut down anyones payments? I didn't see it.. All I saw was that I had to activate the permissions in order to see current affiliate offers.. Not sure if you have proof that payments were stopped, other then people being asked to "verify" (ie: give permissions) when they logged in.

      Just a thought though.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

        Did he ever shut down anyones payments? I didn't see it.. All I saw was that I had to activate the permissions in order to see current affiliate offers.. Not sure if you have proof that payments were stopped, other then people being asked to "verify" (ie: give permissions) when they logged in.

        Just a thought though.
        I don't think payments were stopped - we did around $800 overnight on an offer John (a partner) was promoting. I didn't see any interruption to payments on our end.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mario Brown
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      What amazes me is the one thing I haven't seen any WSO seller or affiliate bring up:

      Mike - what would make you think it's OK to shut down everyone's ability to accept payments for products they're selling or promoting through your system without sending an email first?
      Oh man I hope this is not true.

      I went to bed early yesterday so I never saw the 'update your Paypal Information' message until just 1 hour ago and yesterday I promoted the same WSO that is WSO Of The Day today so if it's true that we were actually 'blocked' from receiving payments then this potentially has cost a lot of affiliates some money - if that's the case it would be nice to get a warning/announcement next time.

      Regarding the actual Paypal permission, to me that's no big deal, just did it and now ready to rock'n roll again and I'm happy to see that it looks like Mike is switching to Paypal's adaptive payment system, that'd be a major improvement.

      Checking my Paypal now to see what happened overnight and waiting for Mike to chime in and see what is going on.

      Cheers,
      Mario

      P.S. Still, I'm happy to see all the changes and improvements made by all the Affiliate Platforms and I'm grateful to have them because I wouldn't want to deal with handling all that stuff. Signing up for WSO+ or any other program and instantly being able to promote products and to be paid instantly is extremely cool. If Paypal keeps cracking down on Im'ers though, then we all better get creative.
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  • Profile picture of the author midiwhale
    The biggest bottleneck here is PayPal. The sooner that changes the better. And I think it IS on the cards within the next 8 months, from what I discovered today.

    We all need to be very careful who we choose to do business with. Especially when it comes down to handling, or processing, or acting as a go between, for our money.

    But it's not just personalities. With payment "poocessing" involved it is also about infrastructure, and security, and disaster recovery.

    How many of the affiliate systems that we use today use in-house programmers? (or people they even know by sight)
    How many have more than 3 full time staff?
    How many have funding to cover fraud and cash flow?
    How many have real anti-hack security, especially if they handle our PayPal api for us?
    How many have servers that don't go down more than the 99.9%
    How many of them actually help "us" the product producers, in any other ways other than siphoning off payment fees?
    How many of them actively monitor and have remedies for server DOS attacks?

    Honestly it ALL feels like a business prevention system, with everyone but everyone siphoning off of the top.

    WSOPRO with WSO of the day, not that I've ever achieved one so far and probably now never will, still seems like the oldest and most "productive" affiliate system - even if it is from Mike's own (our) list. It has REACH and almost all affiliates have WSOPRO ability to promote with.

    I can't say that for any other affiliate system!

    You expected Mike to win, right!

    So first a public apology. I will be changing all my own WSO third party payment links next week, including WSOPRO, digiresults (never went with jvzoo because of BER GPL wso = politics), Dr Ben's Mooshpay, et al.
    The goal posts have moved beyond my control!

    Any affiliates who still want to promote together, will need to sign up (free) to my new ONE SYSTEM.

    I will change all WSO buy buttons over to my new affiliate system for 2012 next week. See my next WSO if you are interested and tired of all this too.

    You want more options? You just got one!

    Peter
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Goldberg
    Caleb - Nobody received any payments once Mike flipped the switch on his end.

    I didn't receive any payments and neither did any of the larger WSO affiliates I am friendly with once the change was made.

    Payments began coming in again as soon as we went in and accepted the new changes. I think that's evidence enough...
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    • Profile picture of the author John Rogers
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      Caleb - Nobody received any payments once Mike flipped the switch on his end.

      I didn't receive any payments and neither did any of the larger WSO affiliates I am friendly with once the change was made.

      Payments began coming in again as soon as we went in and accepted the new changes. I think that's evidence enough...
      I'm not defending Mike making the change with no announcement or explanation. I was shocked to see his message when trying to check my stats. However I have not yet made the change in Paypal, and my payments have not as yet been interrupted.

      Mike, the prudent way to implement a change would have been to send a heads up message with a future date of implementation. I'm guessing you got that message shortly after this thread started. Good luck weathering the sh*t storm.
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      • Profile picture of the author FredJones
        Being from India, I suppose there goes my work with W+ also - just like I cannot work with JVZoo today.

        Reason?

        The reason is I cannot pay with my Paypal balance. No Indian can do that - so every Indian will face the same restriction.

        Why?

        Because, Paypal today is not a financial body under regulation. They don't report the transactions to the regulatory authorities in India (don't know whether they do that in the USA). Hence, they can only act as a payment gateway here but not as a wallet.

        Do I love it?

        You bet. I can no longer launch products on W+ just like I cannot do on JVZoo. What could be more lovely? <Sarcastic Smile>.
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        • Profile picture of the author FredJones
          Originally Posted by FredJones View Post

          Being from India, I suppose there goes my work with W+ also - just like I cannot work with JVZoo today.

          Reason?

          The reason is I cannot pay with my Paypal balance. No Indian can do that - so every Indian will face the same restriction.

          Why?

          Because, Paypal today is not a financial body under regulation. They don't report the transactions to the regulatory authorities in India (don't know whether they do that in the USA). Hence, they can only act as a payment gateway here but not as a wallet.

          Do I love it?

          You bet. I can no longer launch products on W+ just like I cannot do on JVZoo. What could be more lovely? <Sarcastic Smile>.
          EBR (JVZoo)/Mike Lantz (W+),

          Could any of you kindly shed a light on the above? I believe I am speaking on behalf of all Indian sellers. In fact, if any one of you can say that Indian sellers are selling on your system as product owners (for W+, it is selling after the change), I shall be really happy to understand how. And not only me, it could be many other sellers from India.

          Thanks to anyone/everyone who asnwer this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    Well its interesting, sometimes progress is slow and growth is painful, but for the moment I think JV Zoo, is in the lead position, I have been looking for more interactive and options specific features from WarriorPlus, but as a consumer of that service I can see some distinct disadvantages to continuing to use that service, hopefully that will change in the future, but for now, I like JV Zoo.
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  • Profile picture of the author AppsFromHome
    I think it really boils down to your personal preference with how you choose to run your business. It's like a brick and mortar business deciding on a payment processor....they have a lot of choices.

    For those seasoned Warriors with a huge list, extensive product launches, and in depth sales funnel, maybe JV Zoo is a better fit.

    Warrior + has a huge advantage with the sheer amount of affiliates you can pick up without hunting them down. That, and it's what people are used to using...while a lot of us embrace change there are just as many who don't.

    That's what this community is all about...growth, development, and different opinions. I'll just reiterate what others have said about this being a great thing with no ill intent from any Warriors.
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    • Profile picture of the author Anthony Aires
      Originally Posted by Paul Clifford View Post

      Mike

      I think everything in this thread just stems from lack of communication. I don't mean that in a harsh way - I'm a big user of W+ and love the fact that its moving forward.

      But as many here will agree we've seen performance problems and issues and now an unannounced change and I never hear anything about the evolution of w+, a newsletter or infrastructure improvements etc...

      The other networks are continually encouraging a dialog with their vendors.. so that way we have trust and understanding with changes and issues and are in return supportive of their networks.

      I think if you could do the same (you could have even started this thread for example).. you will have the majority of vendors on your side.

      Anyway - great to see your moving to adaptive payments.. and I look forward to meeting you at Raleigh.

      Paul
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      What amazes me is the one thing I haven't seen any WSO seller or affiliate bring up:

      Mike - what would make you think it's OK to shut down everyone's ability to accept payments for products they're selling or promoting through your system without sending an email first?

      Your action cost people THOUSANDS of dollars in sales yesterday.

      Making a change like the one you just put into place should never have been done without days of prior notice to the people that have all made you a ton of money.

      It's the worst customer service mistake I've ever seen in all my time doing business online.

      You should be embarrassed Mike...
      I agree with you guys the most frustrating thing is definitely the lack of communication.

      When Aweber has a system update they give us days notice...

      When Clickbank has a system update they give us notice...

      When Crap Pal has a system update they give us notice...

      It's the right thing to do we all need to plan accordingly based on system updates etc...so we can plan our launches around them.

      At the end of the day I've had HUGE Success on the WF because of Warrior Plus so I'm super grateful for everything you've done Mike. I believe Warrior Plus is the reason the Warrior Forum is on the map the way it is today.

      Now it's time for you to leverage that and help it blow up even more and work with us even more...the more you do the more allies you'll have.

      Just my two cents...

      Anthony Aires

      P.S. I'm also a fan of what E.Brian Rose and Bryan Zimm are doing with JV Zoo they are definitely improving and updating to benefit Warriors. If it wasn't for them things wouldn't be getting shaking up and this thread wouldn't be thriving the way it is...Thank God for Freedom of Speech and Capitalism...I'm definitely excited about the amazing things that are coming up for us Warriors! This is an exciting time...You all need to enjoy watching this evolve this is like history happening right in front of our eyes...I LOVE THIS!
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        One tiny point of disagreement...

        Originally Posted by Anthony Aires View Post

        I believe Warrior Plus is the reason the Warrior Forum is on the map the way it is today.
        Yes, W+ has changed the way people do business in the WSO forum, taking it from a private "members only" marketplace to a public marketplace. But as for putting the Warrior Forum on the map -- I believe the credit goes to Allen for the 15 years of blood, sweat, tears, money and resources that he's poured into this place.

        Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author simonjwarner
    Well, I have been doing WSO's with WSOPRO for two years now, it cost $19 bucks then and its free at the moment.

    It was worth the $19 bucks for the sales management system, now you get a army of affiliates promoting you.

    Where else can someone get that?

    Competition is clearly good for the market.

    Anyway all if have to say, its all good news all round.

    Happy St. Davids Day Warriors!
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  • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
    I guess it's JVZoo for my next WSO then
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Albert
    Hi,

    I added a W+ as provider - now want remove - and is not possible!!!
    whats going on?!

    get error " Fatal Failure" so whats next?!

    Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    The reason that many people do not use a structure with later pay (something like Nanacast - which I use in some cases), is that in the internet marketing niche, many affiliates want "instant gratification" (they want their money now), which is why most programs are instant commission whether it be adaptive or rotating.
    This is one of the problems why people make fast crappy products.... they want fast food payments.

    Make the son o beaches wait and clean some things up, PP is what 60 days refund.

    Even fiver makes them wait 14 days must be a good reason for making them wait.

    If you look at my post above on refund rates you see tons of these crappy products

    Richard
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Goldberg
    I've spent a little time researching this today (if I'm wrong, I'll be the first one to step up and apologize for it).

    It appears that the original request W+ made cut off some payments for a few hours, unless you went in and agreed to the new changes inside Paypal.

    The second set of requests (the one that asked for less access) did not lock out payments. I believe this is why Big Mike didn't notice anything and still got his payments overnight.

    It also appears that not every affiliate got locked out of receiving their payments. I know I was and quite a few others were, too.

    I don't think the second set of requests were unreasonable, they're comparable to the things Digiresults and JVZoo want.

    What upsets me is that anyone would go and lock any of their sellers or affiliates out of receiving money for products they sell without sending any kind of notice first.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      I've spent a little time researching this today (if I'm wrong, I'll be the first one to step up and apologize for it).

      It appears that the original request W+ made cut off some payments for a few hours, unless you went in and agreed to the new changes inside Paypal.

      The second set of requests (the one that asked for less access) did not lock out payments. I believe this is why Big Mike didn't notice anything and still got his payments overnight.

      It also appears that not every affiliate got locked out of receiving their payments. I know I was and quite a few others were, too.

      I don't think the second set of requests were unreasonable, they're comparable to the things Digiresults and JVZoo want.

      What upsets me is that anyone would go and lock any of their sellers or affiliates out of receiving money for products they sell without sending any kind of notice first.
      Ross,

      I have to be honest man, I am a little bit surprised that you would come in here and make statements that were COMPLETELY UNTRUE.

      I realize above you say "If I'm wrong, I'll apologize", but that doesn't make up for the 3 or so posts you made basically telling people they were't receiving payments because of the change as if it were a fact.

      Obviously, I would NEVER make a change that had any major effect like you suggested without tons of notice.

      To be clear, payments NEVER stopped working. All that changed was that we requested those affiliates who wanted to get new affiliate links to setup some Paypal permissions. It did NOT effect sellers, buyers or customers in any way relating to payments.

      Anyway, I hope that clears things up a bit. Could things have been done a little differently? Sure. But definitely nothing was done that interrupted anyone's business.

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Holmes
    This entire threads highlights the question of: "what price of privacy do we pay in order to improve technology"?

    Now, I'm not suggesting Mike is the TSA and wants to take me into a small private room wearing a rubber glove and a rye smile... but it does mean that we have to "trust" a third party (even as trustworthy as they might be).

    I think the idea of having to trust a third party with what is undoubtedly sensitive information, is certainly a potential concern. I am glad steps were made to get rid of the transactional data.

    But perhaps that's the point? Balance.

    Perhaps there is a level of information we can "share" in order to improve other aspects of a business that are relative to such information.

    I'm just not 100% convinced that greasing the machine with my entire Paypal transactional history is not a step too far.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by Steve Holmes View Post


      I'm just not 100% convinced that greasing the machine with my entire Paypal transactional history is not a step too far.
      Mike agreed to remove that from his W+ requirements, thankfully. JVZoo never required that info. The only thing JVZoo ever required was refund permissions and transaction details of transactions made through our platform. Nothing else (other than your name and email address).

      Neither W+ nor JVZoo have any access to any of your private financial information. You gave that to PayPal and PayPal keeps it under lock and key.

      Neither W+ nor JVZoo has access to your PayPal account in any way, other than what I mentioned above.

      I can't speak for W+, but on JVZoo, refunds are only granted by the seller in accordance with his or her own refund policy, as I stated in a previous post.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Steve Holmes View Post

      This entire threads highlights the question of: "what price of privacy do we pay in order to improve technology"?

      Now, I'm not suggesting Mike is the TSA and wants to take me into a small private room wearing a rubber glove and a rye smile... but it does mean that we have to "trust" a third party (even as trustworthy as they might be).

      I think the idea of having to trust a third party with what is undoubtedly sensitive information, is certainly a potential concern. I am glad steps were made to get rid of the transactional data.

      But perhaps that's the point? Balance.

      Perhaps there is a level of information we can "share" in order to improve other aspects of a business that are relative to such information.

      I'm just not 100% convinced that greasing the machine with my entire Paypal transactional history is not a step too far.
      That would be step too far, but to the best of knowledge, none of these systems require that.

      They do have and need access to transactions processed through their respective platforms, but that's necessary because they are coordinating payments/refunds among multiple receivers.

      Bear in mind that these systems are in place because it's usually not feasible for the average business owner to develop their own platform with similar functionality.

      That said, it's a trade off - do you want to sell more using a larger affiliate network at what amounts to pennies per sale or try to attract affiliates on your own (and that only once your own system is built)?

      If I had to guess, I'd bet Google and Facebook probably have far more info about you than any of these systems ever will.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Goldberg
    I don't believe my statements were untrue. One specific individual (who will come forward if they see fit to do so) had their payment buttons stop working.

    It's not my place to speak up for others, but my sales stopped until I agreed to the terms.

    I'm not the only one this happened to either.

    What would you think if you were in OUR position?

    If I'm mistaken, so be it. However, I did research before opening my mouth.

    Maybe you didn't realize it at the time, but you did stop people from receiving money with the changes you made. Good intentions don't bring back lost sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      I don't believe my statements were untrue. One specific individual (who will come forward if they see fit to do so) had their payment buttons stop working.

      It's not my place to speak up for others, but my sales stopped until I agreed to the terms.

      I'm not the only one this happened to either.

      What would you think if you were in OUR position?

      If I'm mistaken, so be it. However, I did research before opening my mouth.

      Maybe you didn't realize it at the time, but you did stop people from receiving money with the changes you made. Good intentions don't bring back lost sales.
      Ross,

      It did NOT happen. I don't know how else to say it. It did not happen to you, or anyone else, in relation to the request to setup Paypal permissions.

      If someone has a specific issue, they can contact us at the WarriorPlus support desk and we will definitely look into the issue.

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe118
        One thing about this debate is that people need to remember that they are giving permissions to a SYSTEM, not to Mike Lantz or Bryan Zimmerman personally. That means:

        * The system and all its stored data can be breached by hackers
        * The system and all its data can be sold to someone whom you don't like
        * The system can have bugs (er... will have bugs)
        * Etc.

        Its not about liking Mike or Zim, folks, wake up -- I cannot tell you how many times I go to a place and "sorry, the 'system' is down, so ... no service" or worse.

        RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE (said with tongue in cheek but also a tiny bit of realism)
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        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by Joe118 View Post

          One thing about this debate is that people need to remember that they are giving permissions to a SYSTEM, not to Mike Lantz or Bryan Zimmerman personally. That means:

          * The system and all its stored data can be breached by hackers
          * The system and all its data can be sold to someone whom you don't like
          * The system can have bugs (er... will have bugs)
          * Etc.

          Its not about liking Mike or Zim, folks, wake up -- I cannot tell you how many times I go to a place and "sorry, the 'system' is down, so ... no service" or worse.

          RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE (said with tongue in cheek but also a tiny bit of realism)
          I think Mike Lantz will agree with me when I say neither system stores any PayPal data that could be used to breach your paypal account. PayPal holds all of that information. If you want to rage against a machine, rage against the right one.
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe118
            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            I think Mike Lantz will agree with me when I say neither system stores any PayPal data that could be used to breach your paypal account. PayPal holds all of that information. If you want to rage against a machine, rage against the right one.
            OK so just the system can be hacked, and once it's hacked the hacker can get the data from paypal. Same end result. Same end result also with a sale.

            And I'm raging in general against the total overall system, including all the stupid things we depend on that we should not depend on.
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            • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
              Originally Posted by Joe118 View Post

              OK so just the system can be hacked, and once it's hacked the hacker can get the data from paypal. Same end result. Same end result also with a sale.
              You will not be able to access any PayPal accounts by hacking into W+ or JVzoo.
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          • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            I think Mike Lantz will agree with me when I say neither system stores any PayPal data that could be used to breach your paypal account. PayPal holds all of that information. If you want to rage against a machine, rage against the right one.
            Well from what I have learned from this thread... Can't say about W+ because have not yet got a official email yet on what his final will be.


            From what I know about JVzoo they can refund people by pushing a button from there side. Not saying they do it

            but they could do it as I understand... So with that said.

            I make 200 sales in JVzoo there backend gets hacked or password gets fig out who know how hackers do it... BUT they do.

            Now as what BER has said they don't store info BUT they can cause trouble and just start refunding as many as they can all 200 sales could easy get refunded with out me knowing... Correct

            So why JVZoo might not have too much info they still can refund with out you knowing. Correct me if I'm not right

            That is not right that they even have a option they could do this their just a middle man and should not have the right at all.

            They have a worker they pissed off BAM they could get in and refund refund refund... ?

            Richard
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            • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
              Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

              but they could do it as I understand... So with that said.

              I make 200 sales in JVzoo there backend gets hacked or password gets fig out who know how hackers do it... BUT they do.
              Richard, you are seriously reaching now. If your paypal account gets hacked they empty it, if yahoo email gets hacked they get your login and passwords to a bunch of stuff including possibly your paypal, if your gmail get's hacked they start sending spam out with your name attached to it or potentially your paypal. Fi your hosting account get's hacked, they put up porn sites on your servers. If my Facebook account get's hacked they can get all kinds of stuff, if nanacast get's hacked they can find out my merchant account info, etc etc etc come on.

              What Mike added is the ABILITY to be able to do refunds, however I'm sure it is FOR the vendor and not for himself just as JVZoo is. All platforms are just a medium except Clickbank who take it upon themselves to just process refunds BUT they run everything through their own merch and PP accounts so I can see why they do it.

              They request permission because they need it for the payment system to work FOR the vendor. If not, the vendor would have no way to pull back the money from the affiliate and the platform while refunding the payments.


              Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

              They have a worker they pissed off BAM they could get in and refund refund refund... ?

              Richard
              Wrong, no employee has any kind of access to any of that.
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              • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
                Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post


                Richard, you are seriously reaching now.
                It's not reaching... You have the power to do refunds with or without my permission... I'm not saying you will do such a thing...

                but YOU CAN! RIGHT!

                You have no reason or need to have that ability at all... do you?


                If your paypal account gets hacked they empty it
                it has



                What Mike added is the ABILITY to be able to do refunds, however I'm sure it is FOR the vendor and not for himself just as JVZoo is.
                It sounds like you both can do refunds on your own then, that's not good.


                They request permission because they need it for the payment system to work FOR the vendor. If not, the vendor would have no way to pull back the money from the affiliate and the platform while refunding the payments.
                You contact your affiliate and say refund him and if he don't you never do business with him again and you tell all your friends about this... Is he going to not give up half of a 7.00 report 3.50 to ruin his ability to affiliate with you... I would hope not!

                Look I did not need any permissions either...

                lets say you have permission they could not have the money in the account anyways so no money in account what good is the permissions then?

                Not a damn good!


                Wrong, no employee has any kind of access to any of that.
                You can't say for sure you have no ideal what employees do ( when the cats away the mice will play )

                You could get a wild hair up your a$$ and screw everyone I have been around for a long time seen them come and go... ever heard of Joe Kumar really nice kid one - day next taking off with 600,000 or more bucks... You can't really trust no one 100%

                I use W+ and just started to use JVzoo so I did allow it for now to test the water.

                Have not with W+ yet as far as I see I have not got a email from Mike yet explaining things ;-(

                Richard
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                • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

                  You have no reason or need to have that ability at all... do you?
                  Richard,

                  You need to take a step back and understand why and how this works the way it does.

                  Those of us who have developed these systems are not requiring Refund Permissions because we want some kind of special control - we do it because of the way the PayPal API works in respect to splitting payments instantly.

                  With Chained payments, you can split the payment between up to six Receivers. One of these is the seller (who is the Primary Receiver), one is the service like JVZ or W+, one might be an affiliate and the remaining three could be Equity/JV Partners.

                  When the customer completes the payment to the seller, PayPal goes to work in the background splitting the payment out to the other receivers. For example, JVZ/W+ gets their share, if there was an Affiliate, that person gets their share and if there are any Equity/JV Partners associated with the purchase, they all get their share.

                  Now here's the problem - when PayPal splits that customer's payment up, they're internally executing a separate payment transaction to each receiver from the seller's account. The reason it's a problem, is because if the customer subsequently asks for a refund, the seller would be left holding the bag for the entire amount.

                  So the Refund Permissions work like this - the seller (the Primary Receiver), logs into the service (JVZ/W+) and initiates the Refund. PayPal in turn, processes the refund like this:

                  1. They refund the share JVZ/W+ received to the seller.
                  2. They refund the share the Affiliate received to the seller.
                  3. They refund the shares the remaining Equity/JV Partners received to the seller.

                  NOTE: In each case above, if there are not enough funds in a Receiver's account to cover the refund, PayPal executes an eCheck against the account and holds it until there are enough funds for it to clear, at which time the seller gets it.

                  Now that the split payments have been returned or credited back to the seller, PayPal issues a refund from the seller to the customer.

                  You cannot do this directly in PayPal - it has to originate from the 3rd-party service that originally facilitated the split payment.

                  That is why Refund Permissions are required by these systems - it's how PayPal designed their API.

                  Quite honestly, it makes good sense to do it this way because the automation makes it a simple, no brainer process that takes about 20 seconds to complete.

                  The original seller isn't wasting time having to manually coordinate with the other receivers to process the refund. At the same time, the other receivers aren't spending time dealing with it either, so everyone in the chain, including the customer has a seamless, automated process for refunding.

                  As to the risks you're pointing out, of course there's always the possibility of a system being hacked. PayPal accounts are hacked every day with stolen credentials - it's why PayPal has systems in place to flag and stop unusual account activity.

                  No matter how you do business online or off, there are always going to be potential risks, that have to be weighed against the benefits of taking the risk. It's important to understand that the risk exists just as it is equally important to understand how the degree of risk is mitigated.

                  If you're using PayPal to process any payments, then you're at risk of having your account accessed by someone with stolen credentials. Using a system like JVZ/W+/Digresults or even my own, you're not at any significantly greater risk.

                  I can't speak for how the other systems are designed, but in looking them over, it's clear to me that they have all taken steps that I consider appropriate and best practices for minimizing the risk of fraud. I've taken similar steps in my own service, but am not going to detail what they are for security reasons.

                  Simply the fact that PayPal has approved their applications tells me a great deal about them as it should you - PayPal is not in the habit of handing out Application ID's to poorly designed systems.

                  In fact, last year, my company became PayPal's first Channel Partner, something they initiated based on our first application. We worked closely with their development team and senior management for months on this. I personally have had special training on the PayPal API system from their development team as well.

                  I mention this only to point out that I have some real expertise in this area and understand the underlying processes that you don't - and because you don't you're flailing around trying to make it seem as if some secret, unusual risk exists where it does not.

                  Based on my experience with PayPal and systems that automate the payment and order fulfillment process, any of these systems are far safer to use than the home-brewed ones that so many merchants have used in the past.
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                  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
                    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                    So the Refund Permissions work like this - the seller (the Primary Receiver), logs into the service (JVZ/W+) and initiates the Refund. PayPal in turn, processes the refund like this:

                    1. They refund the share JVZ/W+ received to the seller.
                    2. They refund the share the Affiliate received to the seller.
                    3. They refund the shares the remaining Equity/JV Partners received to the seller.

                    NOTE: In each case above, if there are not enough funds in a Receiver's account to cover the refund, PayPal executes an eCheck against the account and holds it until there are enough funds for it to clear, at which time the seller gets it.

                    Now that the split payments have been returned or credited back to the seller, PayPal issues a refund from the seller to the customer.
                    I'd like to add that JVZoo has gone a step further to protect the seller from holding the bag. Last week, we released a delayed payment feature.

                    When an affiliate requests an affiliate link from a seller, the seller can choose "instant", "delayed", or "deny".

                    Instant means the affiliate will be paid instantly. Delayed means the affiliate's commissions are held for a period designated by the seller. Denied means, well it means no.

                    If a seller does not recognize an affiliate, he may choose to delay the commissions earned until he has a better working relationship. This removes the risk factor and eliminates fraudulent affiliates.

                    Affiliate can be switched from delayed to instant at any time by the seller. For example, Joe applies for a link and seller does not recognize the name. Seller sets Joe to "delayed". Joe sends a PM to seller saying, "Hey it's me. We know each other from so and so." Seller can then switch Joe to instant commissions, if he chooses.

                    The new PM system that is built in to the platform allows easy communication between sellers and affiliates for this purpose.

                    I also want to add that with JVZoo's adaptive payment system, affiliates are sheltered from PayPal disputes and chargebacks filed by buyers. All of the affiliate commissions are being paid by the seller. The buyer pays the seller directly, so if a dispute is filed, it is filed against the seller, not the affiliate. Systems that use rotating payments do not protect the affiliate in this way.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
                      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

                      I'd like to add that JVZoo has gone a step further to protect the seller from holding the bag. Last week, we released a delayed payment feature.

                      When an affiliate requests an affiliate link from a seller, the seller can choose "instant", "delayed", or "deny".

                      Instant means the affiliate will be paid instantly. Delayed means the affiliate's commissions are held for a period designated by the seller. Denied means, well it means no.

                      If a seller does not recognize an affiliate, he may choose to delay the commissions earned until he has a better working relationship. This removes the risk factor and eliminates fraudulent affiliates.

                      Affiliate can be switched from delayed to instant at any time by the seller. For example, Joe applies for a link and seller does not recognize the name. Seller sets Joe to "delayed". Joe sends a PM to seller saying, "Hey it's me. We know each other from so and so." Seller can then switch Joe to instant commissions, if he chooses.

                      The new PM system that is built in to the platform allows easy communication between sellers and affiliates for this purpose.

                      I also want to add that with JVZoo's adaptive payment system, affiliates are sheltered from PayPal disputes and chargebacks filed by buyers. All of the affiliate commissions are being paid by the seller. The buyer pays the seller directly, so if a dispute is filed, it is filed against the seller, not the affiliate. Systems that use rotating payments do not protect the affiliate in this way.
                      It's in VERY poor taste to tout the features of your program (advertising it essentially) in this thread...

                      -Gary Ambrose
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                  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
                    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                    Richard,

                    You need to take a step back and understand why and how this works the way it does.

                    Those of us who have developed these systems are not requiring Refund Permissions because we want some kind of special control - we do it because of the way the PayPal API works in respect to splitting payments instantly.

                    With Chained payments, you can split the payment between up to six Receivers. One of these is the seller (who is the Primary Receiver), one is the service like JVZ or W+, one might be an affiliate and the remaining three could be Equity/JV Partners.

                    When the customer completes the payment to the seller, PayPal goes to work in the background splitting the payment out to the other receivers. For example, JVZ/W+ gets their share, if there was an Affiliate, that person gets their share and if there are any Equity/JV Partners associated with the purchase, they all get their share.

                    Now here's the problem - when PayPal splits that customer's payment up, they're internally executing a separate payment transaction to each receiver from the seller's account. The reason it's a problem, is because if the customer subsequently asks for a refund, the seller would be left holding the bag for the entire amount.

                    So the Refund Permissions work like this - the seller (the Primary Receiver), logs into the service (JVZ/W+) and initiates the Refund. PayPal in turn, processes the refund like this:

                    1. They refund the share JVZ/W+ received to the seller.
                    2. They refund the share the Affiliate received to the seller.
                    3. They refund the shares the remaining Equity/JV Partners received to the seller.

                    NOTE: In each case above, if there are not enough funds in a Receiver's account to cover the refund, PayPal executes an eCheck against the account and holds it until there are enough funds for it to clear, at which time the seller gets it.

                    Now that the split payments have been returned or credited back to the seller, PayPal issues a refund from the seller to the customer.

                    You cannot do this directly in PayPal - it has to originate from the 3rd-party service that originally facilitated the split payment.

                    That is why Refund Permissions are required by these systems - it's how PayPal designed their API.

                    Quite honestly, it makes good sense to do it this way because the automation makes it a simple, no brainer process that takes about 20 seconds to complete.

                    The original seller isn't wasting time having to manually coordinate with the other receivers to process the refund. At the same time, the other receivers aren't spending time dealing with it either, so everyone in the chain, including the customer has a seamless, automated process for refunding.

                    As to the risks you're pointing out, of course there's always the possibility of a system being hacked. PayPal accounts are hacked every day with stolen credentials - it's why PayPal has systems in place to flag and stop unusual account activity.

                    No matter how you do business online or off, there are always going to be potential risks, that have to be weighed against the benefits of taking the risk. It's important to understand that the risk exists just as it is equally important to understand how the degree of risk is mitigated.

                    If you're using PayPal to process any payments, then you're at risk of having your account accessed by someone with stolen credentials. Using a system like JVZ/W+/Digresults or even my own, you're not at any significantly greater risk.

                    I can't speak for how the other systems are designed, but in looking them over, it's clear to me that they have all taken steps that I consider appropriate and best practices for minimizing the risk of fraud. I've taken similar steps in my own service, but am not going to detail what they are for security reasons.

                    Simply the fact that PayPal has approved their applications tells me a great deal about them as it should you - PayPal is not in the habit of handing out Application ID's to poorly designed systems.

                    In fact, last year, my company became PayPal's first Channel Partner, something they initiated based on our first application. We worked closely with their development team and senior management for months on this. I personally have had special training on the PayPal API system from their development team as well.

                    I mention this only to point out that I have some real expertise in this area and understand the underlying processes that you don't - and because you don't you're flailing around trying to make it seem as if some secret, unusual risk exists where it does not.

                    Based on my experience with PayPal and systems that automate the payment and order fulfillment process, any of these systems are far safer to use than the home-brewed ones that so many merchants have used in the past.
                    Thanks for taking the time to answer... Can't wait for your system to come out.

                    One thing I would like to see in a system is keeping the crap out.

                    You won't really know it is crap until sales and refunds but if you look back at my post I got some refunds % from JVZoo and this is just hurting them to have product that have really high refund rates.

                    Tells me they don't care too much about having quality products for us to promote.

                    Thanks again (Mike W+) needs to take some lessons from you on how to communicate.

                    Richard
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

                      One thing I would like to see in a system is keeping the crap out.
                      1. Get your own hosted system like DLGuard, Rapid Action Profits, Digital Access Pass, WP InstantPay, ProfitsTheme, or whatever.

                      2. Install that system on your own server and put your own products in it.

                      3. PROBLEM SOLVED

                      What you're proposing is what amounts to "a grocery store that doesn't carry food I don't like." If that's what you want, open your own damn grocery store. Nobody else agrees with what you don't like.
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                      • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                        1. Get your own hosted system like DLGuard, Rapid Action Profits, Digital Access Pass, WP InstantPay, ProfitsTheme, or whatever.

                        2. Install that system on your own server and put your own products in it.

                        3. PROBLEM SOLVED

                        What you're proposing is what amounts to "a grocery store that doesn't carry food I don't like." If that's what you want, open your own damn grocery store. Nobody else agrees with what you don't like.
                        I have them... but you can't put all your eggs in one basket.

                        You should know that!

                        Richard
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                        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                          Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

                          I have them... but you can't put all your eggs in one basket.
                          Oh, I'm sorry, did I say "your own server" when I solved your problem?

                          My bad.

                          I meant "several of your own servers across multiple hosting companies."

                          You should have known that
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                          • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
                            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


                            I meant "several of your own servers across multiple hosting companies."
                            Ya, I got several of my own servers don't you... 5 to be exact.

                            Richard
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                            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                              Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

                              Ya, I got several of my own servers don't you...
                              Yes. And as someone with multiple servers, I understand that when someone says "your server" they mean "any and all servers you may have." Talking about how many servers I have and how awesome they are is basically just swinging my dick all over the place yelling "LOOK HOW BIG IT IS."

                              Which nobody does unless they have some kind of insecurity around that.
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                              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
              Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

              Now as what BER has said they don't store info BUT they can cause trouble and just start refunding as many as they can all 200 sales could easy get refunded with out me knowing... Correct
              Privacy is very important to me, but I've given JVZoo permissions for my PayPal account. I trust the owners with that data, simple as that. I don't have a problem with WarriorPlus either.

              PayPal, on the other hand, I have little trust in - but they're the main game in town.

              An attorney for eBay (PayPal's owner) once told me they will review PayPal's sales records. If there is a product being sold they do not like they have banned people for buying it, not just the seller.

              I prefer not to buy IM related products with my PayPal account. Instead, I use a credit card and order as a guest through PayPal. This also lets me use different email addresses as I've frankly had it with spam generated from IM purchases to my PayPal email.

              A rogue employee at PayPal could do a lot more damage.

              My suggestion is to review both services and decide which is best for you. It may turn out you decide to use both. They're not mutually exclusive.

              .
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Joe118 View Post

          One thing about this debate is that people need to remember that they are giving permissions to a SYSTEM, not to Mike Lantz or Bryan Zimmerman personally. That means:

          * The system and all its stored data can be breached by hackers
          * The system and all its data can be sold to someone whom you don't like
          * The system can have bugs (er... will have bugs)
          * Etc.

          Its not about liking Mike or Zim, folks, wake up -- I cannot tell you how many times I go to a place and "sorry, the 'system' is down, so ... no service" or worse.

          RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE (said with tongue in cheek but also a tiny bit of realism)
          Actually it is - it's knowing that they can be relied upon to follow best practices and use due diligence to minimize the chances of such things happening.

          As was mentioned, no information is stored (or can even be accessed) by these systems that could potentially compromise anyone using them.

          The very nature of PayPal's API would require that PayPal, not the 3rd-party system, be compromised and that certainly would not be the fault of Mike L. or Zimm.
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          Originally Posted by Joe118 View Post

          One thing about this debate is that people need to remember that they are giving permissions to a SYSTEM, not to Mike Lantz or Bryan Zimmerman personally. That means:

          * The system and all its stored data can be breached by hackers
          * The system and all its data can be sold to someone whom you don't like
          * The system can have bugs (er... will have bugs)
          * Etc.
          That's a good question. Perhaps someone using the PayPal adaptive payments can explain this further.

          What, if any, of a user's PayPal information is stored by the service?

          I thought the "permissions" meant PayPal would allow access to an account to accomplish a refund, but the private PayPal password remained with PayPal.

          Edit: Big Mike and EBR apparently answered this while I stepped away to stop someone from stealing one of our charity donations.

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
            Banned
            Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

            That's a good question. Perhaps someone using the PayPal adaptive payments can explain this further.

            What, if any, of a user's PayPal information is stored by the service?

            I thought the "permissions" meant PayPal would allow access to an account to accomplish a refund, but the private PayPal password remained with PayPal.

            .
            The PayPal API does not give anyone access to:

            1. Passwords
            2. Credit/Debit card info
            3. Bank account info

            PayPal uses a system of Tokens (long ID's) and Pay Keys to exchange information between the service and PayPal. Some of these time out after 15 minutes, while others are permanent.

            Even the transaction data is slightly different than normal IPN data in some respects. There's no more or less risk than if someone were using PayPal's Web Payments Standard that DL Guard and other earlier systems use.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        Ross,

        It did NOT happen. I don't know how else to say it. It did not happen to you, or anyone else, in relation to the request to setup Paypal permissions.

        If someone has a specific issue, they can contact us at the WarriorPlus support desk and we will definitely look into the issue.

        Mike
        I was just going through PayPal double-checking this and I'm positive there wasn't an interruption. From last night (times are GMT+2):

        9:46 PM - John Rogers emailed our list with a W+ offer.

        3:31 AM - John sent me a Skype message advising me of the W+ changes.

        2:06 PM - I received the Skype message but hadn't acted on it.

        6:30 PM - I granted the permissions so John could access W+ stats.

        After John's Skype message to me at 3:31 AM, we had 34 sales come in on 2 different W+ offers prior to granting permissions.

        Based on our historical data, that's normal for the timeframe and offer we were promoting.

        I also saw one refund request that came in during that time and processed it.

        From where I'm sitting, it looks like everything worked normally. In fact, if I hadn't seen this thread, I wouldn't have even known about it until John brought it up.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      I don't believe my statements were untrue. One specific individual (who will come forward if they see fit to do so) had their payment buttons stop working.
      I had my payment return a "server error". I have no idea if it is related or not. Happened yesterday and I immediately changed the link to a DLGuard link.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Is there a possibility the server attack on the forum which caused it to be frozen for several hours yesterday affected purchase links?

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      Is there a possibility the server attack on the forum which caused it to be frozen for several hours yesterday affected purchase links?

      .
      It wouldn't have affected any WSO Pro links directly, but it sure would have effected people being able to see them and buy stuff!

      And, it did overlap with the time I made the WarriorPlus changes (mostly at the beginning of that window.)

      So, that does sound like a likely explanation for people noticing an issue.

      Thanks for bringing it up, Brian, I should have thought of that!

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Goldberg
    Big Mike - I have no doubt that some people went unaffected.

    I'm also not a big WSO affiliate personally, so it's possible that I personally didn't have any possible sales during the time frame that people got no payments.

    I've had a discussion with no less than half a dozen people that got absolutely zero payments in (which was not normal after they promote a WSO) during the time frame when W+ requested the first set of permissions. Five to fifteen minutes after they approved it, they started seeing sales roll in again.

    Those of you that know me from years ago may expect me to leap before looking (like I used to). I don't waste my energy on things like that anymore...

    The simple fact is that MANY people did not get payments once these new permissions were requested.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

      Big Mike - I have no doubt that some people went unaffected.

      I'm also not a big WSO affiliate personally, so it's possible that I personally didn't have any possible sales during the time frame that people got no payments.

      I've had a discussion with no less than half a dozen people that got absolutely zero payments in (which was not normal after they promote a WSO) during the time frame when W+ requested the first set of permissions. Five to fifteen minutes after they approved it, they started seeing sales roll in again.

      Those of you that know me from years ago may expect me to leap before looking (like I used to). I don't waste my energy on things like that anymore...

      The simple fact is that MANY people did not get payments once these new permissions were requested.
      I'm not suggesting you didn't, but knowing how W+ and PayPal's API works, I don't see how that could happen. They're two entirely different animals...
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialNetworks
    hmmmm... access to all transactions.... kind of a :| moment.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Further to my last post....

    If you feel like reading up on it, here is a link to the page at x.com (PayPal's development site) with a lot more info. There's a PDF in the right-hand column that gets into some of the technical processes that help to explain it.

    https://www.x.com/developers/paypal/...ptive-payments

    As EBR mentioned, these systems aren't something just anyone can slap together - PayPal reviews and approves them on a system-by-system basis.

    I've been through the approval process three times now and it ain't a cake walk. They go over the apps with a fine tooth comb and often require additions/changes to conform to their standards.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

      I have had several products in these newer 3rd party systems and yet have to face a refund (besides CB that's why I'm done with them any longer)

      "make a good product with great support close any reasons why a refund would happen and none do happen".
      That's my formula for keeping refunds low. However, saying "none will happen" isn't true. There are people who buy with the intent of refunding before they even buy. They do it to get the product for free.

      On the rare occasions when I do get a refund request, when I send them an email to let them know I've refunded their purchase I always ask if there was anything I could do to improve the product. The last guy I refunded wrote back and said it was a great product, he loved it, but I had a money back guarantee so he just wanted his money back "because I'd rather have the product for free."

      The part in quotes are his exact words.

      No disrespect intended, but if you haven't experienced this it's likely because you're not selling the kinds of products serial refunders want, or you're not making enough "noise" to draw their attention. With some people, they refund because they can, period.
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      • Profile picture of the author mike_somerville
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        That's my formula for keeping refunds low. However, saying "none will happen" isn't true. There are people who buy with the intent of refunding before they even buy. They do it to get the product for free.

        On the rare occasions when I do get a refund request, when I send them an email to let them know I've refunded their purchase I always ask if there was anything I could do to improve the product. The last guy I refunded wrote back and said it was a great product, he loved it, but I had a money back guarantee so he just wanted his money back "because I'd rather have the product for free."

        The part in quotes are his exact words.

        No disrespect intended, but if you haven't experienced this it's likely because you're not selling the kinds of products serial refunders want, or you're not making enough "noise" to draw their attention. With some people, they refund because they can, period.
        I love the dudes that purchase, Don't sign up for the membership ... Bitch they can't access and then refund.

        OR the ones that purchase, access, download, and refund.

        OR the ones that Purchase, Refund and then sell that content on the blackhat forums. lol

        ...Gotta love FTC Laws!

        Wish I could go to Tim Hortons or McDonalds Eat and Drink my order and then refund! haha
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      • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        That's my formula for keeping refunds low. However, saying "none will happen" isn't true. There are people who buy with the intent of refunding before they even buy. They do it to get the product for free.

        On the rare occasions when I do get a refund request, when I send them an email to let them know I've refunded their purchase I always ask if there was anything I could do to improve the product. The last guy I refunded wrote back and said it was a great product, he loved it, but I had a money back guarantee so he just wanted his money back "because I'd rather have the product for free."
        The part in quotes are his exact words.


        I have had my share of refunds CLICKBANK need I say more.

        Above you did not close everything in the sale you left a open window and they climbed in it and took it.

        Doors have locks only to keep the honest people honest.

        Before the refund you need to ask questions not after you give the money back... re-close the sale so the refund don't happen.


        No disrespect intended, but if you haven't experienced this it's likely because you're not selling the kinds of products serial refunders want, or you're not making enough "noise" to draw their attention. With some people, they refund because they can, period.

        You mean make 30,000 in 5 min... again this type of product is filled with reasons why a refund would happen... Point out any WSO I will show you how they have not closed the sale. this would be for another thread some time.

        Thanks
        Richard
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

          re-close the sale so the refund don't happen.
          I'm reminded of the scene in Glengarry Glen Ross where Ricky Roma tries repeatedly to convince James Lingk not to cancel the deal.

          It's clear to the audience, although clearly not to Lingk, that Roma is deceptively trying to run out the clock on Lingk's legally-mandated cancellation time.

          Because Roma does not give a fruit about Lingk. He just wants the sale. So he can make his commission. So he will get the numbers. So he will win the Cadillac.

          And that's the kind of person who tries to re-close the sale when a customer asks for a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author mike_somerville
    At the end of the day.
    Warrior Forum is just that ... Mike makes insane amounts of money to host this forum. There is no organics anymore, the only reason we all make a crap load of money on here is because we mail for eachother.

    PayPal will be shutting is down, it's not a if ... it's a when!

    So I would say, ride the wave for now and expect it crash sooner then later.

    * As for this new payment crap. I see it has a move for Mike to save taxes don't you ?? LOL

    Mike, I read all the posts and still don't understand why you went to this.
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    • Profile picture of the author zerofill
      Originally Posted by mike_somerville View Post

      ... Mike makes insane amounts of money to host this forum.

      I think Allen might take exception to that statement.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

        I think Allen might take exception to that statement.
        Yeah, why am I not receiving any payments from Allen!? Maybe I need a new strategy...

        Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by mike_somerville View Post

      At the end of the day.
      Warrior Forum is just that ... Mike makes insane amounts of money to host this forum. There is no organics anymore, the only reason we all make a crap load of money on here is because we mail for eachother.

      PayPal will be shutting is down, it's not a if ... it's a when!

      So I would say, ride the wave for now and expect it crash sooner then later.

      * As for this new payment crap. I see it has a move for Mike to save taxes don't you ?? LOL

      Mike, I read all the posts and still don't understand why you went to this.
      A few things...

      1) I do not host or own this forum at all, just WarriorPlus and the WSO Pro system.

      2) I don't think the outlook for using Paypal is as bleak as you make it out to be, but who knows for sure!

      3) Can't see how I can save on taxes using this, but if you know how, I'll take the savings!

      4) I am making this change because it is simply how Paypal works. The only difference from what the other platforms discussed here are doing is that I am making a change after doing business a different way for awhile, while they started later and have used the new Paypal platform from the beginning.

      Change is good, I promise!

      Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
      Originally Posted by mike_somerville View Post

      At the end of the day.
      Warrior Forum is just that ... Mike makes insane amounts of money to host this forum. There is no organics anymore, the only reason we all make a crap load of money on here is because we mail for eachother.
      Mike doesn't host this forum. Allen does. Mike runs a payment system.
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by mike_somerville View Post

      Warrior Forum is just that ... Mike makes insane amounts of money to host this forum.
      These statements are the problem with any website or business riding on Allen's Warrior Forum brand -- people get confused about who owns the forum. And when a third-party site/business with the Warrior name does something that people don't like -- then this third party is dragging the Warrior Forum brand through the mud, too.
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      • Profile picture of the author mike_somerville
        Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

        These statements are the problem with any website or business riding on Allen's Warrior Forum brand -- people get confused about who owns the forum. And when a third-party site/business with the Warrior name does something that people don't like -- then this third party is dragging the Warrior Forum brand through the mud, too.
        HUH? ... I was simply stating that this is a FORUM not a merchant!

        ... And the beat goes on!
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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Originally Posted by mike_somerville View Post

          HUH? ... I was simply stating that this is a FORUM not a merchant!

          ... And the beat goes on!
          He is referring to exactly what I said... HERE
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        • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
          Originally Posted by mike_somerville View Post

          HUH? ... I was simply stating that this is a FORUM not a merchant!

          ... And the beat goes on!
          From your earlier post it appeared that you thought Mike hosts/owns this forum.
          He does not, Allen does.
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        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
          Just putting my two cents in here.

          I chose not to grant the access to W+.

          It has nothing to do with what it allows/doesn't allow.

          It has to do with the communication factor.

          Other options (*cough* JVZoo *cough*) provide much better communication when things are either in the works, implemented, etc.

          With W+, nothing much is said from the top about what's going on - whether it's features that have been asked for, issues/problems/concerns, or this particular issue with permissions.

          If I'm depending on something for income, I want better customer service.

          Maybe that's just me.

          JMHO and YMMV
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  • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
    Well now, this IS an interesting thread!

    And confusing

    and a little unnervering for someone about to launch their first wso!

    I personally trust WF and Mike so am keeping it all x that my intuition is right and there is nothing to be concerned about and that if anything these changes will make the system work more efficiently.

    That said - I too am a numpty who just went - click... yep click and oh yeah click ...
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  • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
    OP, nope, I wouldn't want to give anyone this much control over my PayPal account, no matter how much money I can make with the tools.

    so, if that's how it has to be to use either JVZoo or W+ then I wouldn't use either to launch a WSO (I didn't use either in the past, and I still made profits, maybe not huge profits, but still).

    sure, I'd lose out on some money by not using one of these tools, but to me, money isn't everything.

    newbies should be aware that they don't need JVZoo or Warriorplus to launch a WSO. There are other ways to do things. There are always solutions to problems if you think outside the box.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingChad
    Interesting thread...it is good to see people get impassioned about something like this.

    Perhaps a lot of you should read my recent blog post on entitlement!

    The truth here is, Warrior Plus and JVZoo are services. YOU chose to purchase the service or not, it is your choice as a consumer whether or not you pay them money to provide the service they offer (payment processing for your WSOs). You need to decide if the service is worth the cost, if not then you are by no means obligated to spend your money.

    As a customer of these products you are owed only what you are paying for. I can certainly understand the concern about miscommunication (or lack of communication) as it's a big part of customer service. If you are unhappy enough to make a decision that you no longer want to do business based on that experience you have absolutely every right to make that call.

    Mike Lantz owns Warrior Plus. He is making decisions based on the trajectory of his business and where he wants to see it go in the future. Right or wrong, it's his call to make. Just like it's your decision as to what payment processor you use for YOUR business. It may not be a decision you like or agree with but again, that's your call.

    I think the problem here is most people know the benefits they get with an affiliate/payment platform like this and don't want to give that up even though they have a problem with the privacy "issues" presented. You can't have your cake and eat it too unfortunately. This is what Paypal has mandated in their API and unfortunately if we want to take advantage of such a platform, you have to understand that's how it works.

    All of this arguing and speculation is only fueling the WarriorForum haterade that Paypal is drinking. How can we on one hand say that our business model isn't high risk and they shouldn't ban our accounts and then sit here and point out all of the fraudulent circumstances that could arise. All of these things you guys are mentioning are EXACTLY what Paypal says is high risk.

    We need to stick together here and work towards a better solution.

    Not trying to stir the pot, just my $.02
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rogers
    Here's my take on this....

    Mike has a significant share of the WSO product fulfillment and affiliate marketplace. Competitors are entering the marketplace and threaten to take a portion of Mike's business. Therefore Mike must evolve or lose his income stream.

    Mike decides to evolve, but his decision on how to evolve requires his existing customers to sign into Paypal and grant some permissions.

    The problem lies in Mike's execution. He didn't bother to forewarn his customers about what he was doing and why. Not only did he not forewarn them, but he didn't even explain it in the message that greeted his customers when trying to access account functions at Warrior +.

    Regardless of whether or not his intentions were good, his method of execution appears on the surface to be sneaky and obviously created an air of suspicion among his customers. Especially after changing the access he was requesting, the access itself is not a big deal. It's the manner in which Mike went about his changes.

    I'm not ditching Warrior + over this. Like I said, the access isn't a big deal. I'm not going to dump a nice little income stream over this incident.

    However, there is an important takeaway for all Warriors as a result of this incident.

    Mike got sloppy in response to his growing competition.

    That sloppiness resulted in a very public argument in the place his customers all hang out.

    And I suspect that very public argument is going to result in accelerated migration from Warrior + to a competitor.

    Personally, I see some very good reasons for using BOTH Warrior + and JVZoo. Both as a vendor and as an affiliate.

    Take notes on this one, folks. Don't let it happen in your business.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
      Originally Posted by John Rogers View Post

      The problem lies in Mike's execution. He didn't bother to forewarn his customers about what he was doing and why. Not only did he not forewarn them, but he didn't even explain it in the message that greeted his customers when trying to access account functions at Warrior +.

      Regardless of whether or not his intentions were good, his method of execution appears on the surface to be sneaky and obviously created an air of suspicion among his customers. Especially after changing the access he was requesting, the access itself is not a big deal. It's the manner in which Mike went about his changes.
      I have seen this particular argument a few times in this thread, and I want to speak to it.

      I have to disagree with the "execution" argument.

      Could I have done it slightly different? Sure.
      Could I have given more notice? Again, sure.
      Could I have requested different permissions to start? Yea.

      But, in the end, had I done any/all of that, would it have prevented this thread from beng started by someone?

      NOPE.

      As we learn from very large public companies like Google and Facebook, anytime you have a change and it effects enough people, some are going to complain about it. That is just the reality, and it is to be expected.

      And while it is unfortunate that this thread had to be started, or that there was some concern by a few about the permissions, the majority of people using Warriorplus were and are absolutely fine with the changes being made, because it simply has no adverse affect on their business.

      I also have to disagree that there was no messaging on what was being requested and why - it is right there in the message that asks people to signup for permissions. Sure, I didn't go into every detail, but the info is there. A handful of people contacted my helpdesk asking about it and if it was legit, I answered them, and everyone was happy.

      In the end, only a few percent of people who saw the message chose to post here, and/or have concern enough about it to ask me or simply choose not to give the requested permissions. That's fine, and nobody was forced to do so. Everyones affiliate links still work, their promotions are still active and they can still earn money through the system. But for now, they can't get any new affiliate links or request new offers.

      I listen to my members and customers. I want to make them happy. I want to help everyone. But, sometimes you have to make decisions that aren't loved by everyone, and that is OK, too. I think the company Jobs built is a testament to this.

      If I lose some members/customers over this, I will be sad to see them go. I wish them the best, and I will continue to do what I can earn their business and trust in the future.

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author MarketingChad
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post


        I listen to my members and customers. I want to make them happy. I want to help everyone. But, sometimes you have to make decisions that aren't loved by everyone, and that is OK, too. I think the company Jobs built is a testament to this.

        If I lose some members/customers over this, I will be sad to see them go. I wish them the best, and I will continue to do what I can earn their business and trust in the future.

        Mike
        "I can't give you a surefire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time." - Herbert Swope
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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        I have to disagree with the "execution" argument.

        Could I have done it slightly different? Sure.
        Could I have given more notice? Again, sure.
        Could I have requested different permissions to start? Yea.

        But, in the end, had I done any/all of that, would it have prevented this thread from beng started by someone?

        NOPE.
        This reminds me of when the WSO forum went from free to run a WSO to $20 to run a WSO to $40 to run a WSO. It also reminds me of when the forum went from free to "Paid" with the advent of the WarRoom.

        In the cases above there were various warning levels of the pending events from no warning at all to full disclosure ahead of time.

        In each and every case Mike, what you say in the quote above is true, warning or not, advanced notice or not, threads were started to protest the events.

        In one case where no warning was given we were told the reason was the warning/advanced notice would have just started a landslide of confusion and knee jerk reaction that needed to be avoided, thus no warning.

        Makes sense to me, even if the stated reasons above were not your reasons.

        Keep up the great service Mike.

        George Wright
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
        Looks like you don't understand the importance of communicating with your customers. Better communications all around from you would have given this thread a whole differemt tone.


        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        I have seen this particular argument a few times in this thread, and I want to speak to it.

        I have to disagree with the "execution" argument.

        Could I have done it slightly different? Sure.
        Could I have given more notice? Again, sure.
        Could I have requested different permissions to start? Yea.

        But, in the end, had I done any/all of that, would it have prevented this thread frs just the reality, and it is to be
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

        I also have to disagree that there was no messaging on what was being requested and why - it is right there in the message that asks people to signup for permissions.
        Generally, when you make a change of this nature, you announce it to your customers beforehand. You put a message on your website explaining what you are doing and why. You address the concerns, like "why are you doing this?" and "what do these permissions mean?" and "do I have to agree to keep promoting WSOs?"

        You didn't do any of that.

        You're right, whatever you did would be seen as inadequate by some number of people. But it still comes down to the fact that I had to be told about this on some random W+ user's Facebook wall, instead of getting an email from my friend and business associate Mike Lantz about the upcoming changes in WSO Pro and what to expect.

        It struck me as disrespectful. It's like you didn't think I was important enough to be told. And since you apparently didn't think anyone was important enough to be told, that's kind of like saying you don't care about your customers - whether vendors or affiliates.

        I know that's not what you meant. But that's still what it looks like.
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        • Profile picture of the author rich_henderson
          I have been watching this thread with some interest and decided I would throw my 10c in

          Now I have no experiences of the rival companies to W+ and am no expert when it comes to the different types of payments available etc so I am just going to give my reason for accepting the changes and moving on.

          The biggest reason for me is that I have no reason not to trust what Mike is doing and I could not see how or why he would do anything to risk what must be a sizable income by doing anything that could get him into trouble with paypal

          If what he was doing was in any way "dodgy" it would not take many complaints from customers to get the trigger happy paypal to close his account.

          I also asked a few warriors I trust and their views were pretty much the same and I looked at the warriors who were requesting affiliate approval and there were some well known names in there who had obviously accepted the changes already.

          So thats it I accepted it and now I can move on and try making some more money with my wso's and promoting other members wso's too.

          Feel free to jump in and tell me I have my head in the sand or that my view is way to simplistic but I am only explaining why I chose to accept, I'll leave deciding what is right and wrong to those better informed than myself.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by rich_henderson View Post

            The biggest reason for me is that I have no reason not to trust what Mike is doing
            My reasoning was almost the exact opposite.

            I have every reason to trust Mike Lantz. He's a good guy who tends to do the right thing, and the question of "Why should I not trust him?" never even entered my mind - I trust Mike 100% with whatever he tells me he needs.

            This might seem like it's the same thing, but it's not. I have no reason not to trust random strangers on the street, either, but I wouldn't give THEM these permissions.
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            • Profile picture of the author webmustang
              Is Mike LANTZ EVIL??

              (i don't think anyone said that lol ... Can't get the marketer out of the warrior, had to have a headline lol)

              Reading and skipping through this thread, I see a lot of concerns and frustrations, most of which come from a very poor communication on all ends.

              Mike Lantz has been growing his list of frustrated affiliates when he sends emails to his WSOTD list in the middle of the day to promote WSOs (Mike Filsane's was one in a string of a few)

              All the various Skype chats I lurk in light up with rage and fury as soon as Mike clicks the send button.

              Mike Lantz has nurtured, watered and fertilized his list of ticked off affiliates when his W+ servers melt and Buy buttons vanish randomly, when 500, 503 errors decorate our screens or other various bugs creep in the system.

              Mike Lantz, I think, kinda took for granted the cash cow he had and generated a LOT of desire to compete with him, which is normal.

              Imitation is the best form of compliment isn't it?

              So now we have the JVzoo team and the MooshPay and the Digi this and Badacashbang that trying to get a piece of the WSO pie.

              Is Mike Lantz Evil? NO! He is just fallible.
              He is a IM genius (W+ is a genius idea and system)
              He is really good at making other poor decisions too.
              He is NOT a good customer service guy at all, but we knew that.

              Is he dishonest, guys I REALLY don't think so.
              Do I like him? Who cares, plus I don't know him, so I don't care.

              We, the WSO Launching "big guns" have made a lot of money thanks to Mike Lantz and his weak system, but you know what, we ALL benefited from his efforts and ideas.

              We, the warriors, buyers and sellers, ALL benefited from Mike Lantz system, because we bought, we earned, we learned, and if we took action, we grew!

              I, personally, got to help many to fire their bosses, save their homes, build their confidence, turn their lives around, in the US, in UK, in Africa, in Australia, in Malaysia, in Indonesia and bunch of other places I can't spell!

              I made friends with GREAT guys, (Mario and Brian are the ones i'll dare to name) and all this came about thanks to Mike Lantz W+ system, with it's flaws and crappy issues.

              So THANK YOU MIKE LANTZ for that... Seriously and sincerely
              (lol you might not like my post, but that's ok, I still thank you lol)

              Did he take his business model for granted... ABSOLUTELY

              Was it a fun run to launch WSOs and do all that stuff, YES!

              But really what hurt the Warrior forum more than anything, is not Mike Lantz, it's these dung loaded WSOs that under deliver and over hype and feed off the dreams and hope from the overwhelmed and over loaded buyers.

              But what really hurt YOU, the Warrior, the WSO buyer, is the fantastic ability YOU have to get side tracked from your own goals by hoping the next WSO will be the solution to whatever problem, hope, dream, issue brought you in here to begin with.

              WSO buyers, take ownership in your own side tracking ability and lack of discipline...

              Focus, take action, unsubscribe from a few lists, take action, take action, take action and you WILL taste the bitter sweet flavor of success.
              Bitter because it requires work and discipline
              Sweet because the reward is often worth it.

              In closing, Paypal has the Warrior Forum in its crosshairs, JVZOO, W+, This that whatever, Paypal simply doesn't like any of it and Anthony Aires recorded that call, I had the same conversation with Paypal three times this year lol

              That's a bottom line that is out of Mike's hands, but in yours if you chose to use Paypal, you are putting yourself at risk of being limited.

              Best regards
              Jerome 007
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              • Profile picture of the author webmustang
                wow that was longer than expected lol
                And it probably was not related to the original post lol oh well, sue me lol
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                • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                  Originally Posted by webmustang View Post

                  oh well, sue me lol
                  Watch out there is a lawyer in this thread
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tony Shepherd
                    I have a question for Mike Lantz

                    Hi Mike,

                    I have my own concerns regarding the the permissions aspect of the WSO+ changes, and they've not been covered in this thread as far as I know.

                    I hope you can find the time to answer my question

                    As far as I'm aware, getting accepted by Paypal in order to be able to accept these permissions from your users is quite an in-depth process.

                    I believe Paypal investigate the coding apsects of permissions very closely and you need to (and obviously have) pass close scrutiny checks, which is re-assuring.

                    But during this process does Paypal ALSO investigate the NATURE of your business?

                    What I'm saying is, do they also know of, and approve of the type of products promoted through WSO+?

                    Thanks in advance for your answer!

                    Cheers

                    Tony
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                    • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
                      Originally Posted by Tony Shepherd View Post

                      I have a question for Mike Lantz
                      ...
                      But during this process does Paypal ALSO investigate the NATURE of your business?

                      What I'm saying is, do they also know of, and approve of the type of products promoted through WSO+?
                      Hi Tony,

                      I have my own account management team at Paypal. They are certainly aware of how the system works. I speak with them periodically, and they have NEVER reported to me that there is a problem.

                      Of course, they nor I can speak for individual products being sold through the system. There is always the chance that Paypal won't like YOUR product, and issues could arise due to that.

                      Unfortunately, with Paypal it often depends on WHO of their employees are reviewing your account, as to what the outcome will be. Their internal policies regarding the kind of products being sold as WSOs are inconsistent, to say the least.

                      If Paypal has a risk concern that is not directly covered by their AUP, they really SHOULD have a consistent policy of using rolling reserves to ensure sales, dispute and refund patterns meet their criteria. Unfortunately, that is not the case right now.

                      Mike
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tony Shepherd
                        Thanks a lot Mike - appreciate you taking the time to answer.

                        Very interesting observations too.

                        Bloody frightening, but interesting none the less

                        Hope everyone has read between the lines with this one...

                        Cheers

                        Tony



                        Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

                        Hi Tony,

                        I have my own account management team at Paypal. They are certainly aware of how the system works. I speak with them periodically, and they have NEVER reported to me that there is a problem.

                        Of course, they nor I can speak for individual products being sold through the system. There is always the chance that Paypal won't like YOUR product, and issues could arise due to that.

                        Unfortunately, with Paypal it often depends on WHO of their employees are reviewing your account, as to what the outcome will be. Their internal policies regarding the kind of products being sold as WSOs are inconsistent, to say the least.

                        If Paypal has a risk concern that is not directly covered by their AUP, they really SHOULD have a consistent policy of using rolling reserves to ensure sales, dispute and refund patterns meet their criteria. Unfortunately, that is not the case right now.

                        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Mario Brown
          I checked my Paypal and I 'Did Not' lose any sales due to the changes so that's the good news. Not sure why someone would post in here claiming that their sales/promotions were effected if they actually haven't made any sales in the first place.

          I also implemented the requested changes and it was no big deal, it's the same stuff now that others require so it was a quick fix and it's all up and running (happy if the idea is to implement adaptive payments) and I think what needed to be said was said already multiple times now.

          Yes Mike should have announced the changes and he already said that it wasn't the best way to handle it and yes it's his business at the end of the day and everyone that got upset had a chance to say what they needed to say, I'm not sure what else there is to discuss or maybe I'm missing something.

          Cheers,
          Mario

          P.S. And let's face it why would the guys from WSO+, JVZoo, Moosshpay or Digiresults do anything dodgy in the first place - that would only results in them getting shut down by Paypal and that's obviously not in their interest.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    What I want to know is, what the hell are you guys all doing in your Paypal accounts that you are so worried about someone seeing? Seriously. Wouldn't it be easier to just stop subscribing to those porn sites in the first place. I couldn't care less if someone knew I bought a pair of new sunglasses on eBay last week. Are you THAT paranoid?

    Most of you sitting here complaining about this are probably the same people who upload all your personal photos and intimate details to Facebook.

    Give me a break. Any employee at Paypal could cause way more problems for you than Mike ever could. Someone who hacks your computer and gets your Paypal password could cause way more damage as well. So does that mean if your Paypal account could be hacked you shouldn't have one? If that's how you feel, then don't!

    Originally Posted by MarketingChad View Post

    All of this arguing and speculation is only fueling the WarriorForum haterade that Paypal is drinking. How can we on one hand say that our business model isn't high risk and they shouldn't ban our accounts and then sit here and point out all of the fraudulent circumstances that could arise. All of these things you guys are mentioning are EXACTLY what Paypal says is high risk.

    We need to stick together here and work towards a better solution.
    So true.

    Originally Posted by Ross Goldberg View Post

    I don't believe my statements were untrue. One specific individual (who will come forward if they see fit to do so) had their payment buttons stop working.

    It's not my place to speak up for others, but my sales stopped until I agreed to the terms.

    I'm not the only one this happened to either.

    What would you think if you were in OUR position?

    If I'm mistaken, so be it. However, I did research before opening my mouth.

    Maybe you didn't realize it at the time, but you did stop people from receiving money with the changes you made. Good intentions don't bring back lost sales.
    What would I think? I would at least do my homework first.

    Most people here will know the Warrior Forum had a ton of issues yesterday and it is FAR more likely that is what caused your dip in sales... either that or (shock horror) you didn't make a sale in 15 minutes... must be the payment processors fault though, right?!

    I had no issues with my sales whatsoever and they kept coming in just like clock-work.

    Your comments remind me of those threads we see come through the Warrior Forum all the time... "Help, Clickbank is screwed...". They then go on to explain that they usually make ten sales a day but today they only made two sales so something must be wrong with Clickbank. Yeah right!

    You have a right to your opinion but don't go blaming someone unless you know for sure that is what caused your dip in sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      My question is, what the hell are you guys all doing in your Paypal accounts that you are so worried about someone seeing? Seriously. Wouldn't it be easier to just stop subscribing to those porn sites in the first place. I couldn't care less if someone knew I bought a pair of new sunglasses on eBay last week. Are you THAT paranoid?
      I take privacy very seriously. It is nobody's business what is being bought and sold through my or anybody else's checkbook or PayPal account.

      Any company that wants to see your buying or selling history is wanting it for a reason. That reason is most likely marketing purposes... marketing to you and your customers.

      With that being said, neither JVZoo or W+ has access to see what purchases you have made. Mike got rid of that permission and JVZoo never had it.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
    So, I just posted a FAQ article over in the support area at WarriorPlus. I don't think there is anything new in it that hasn't already been discussed here, but I would be interested for you all to take a look at it.

    If you have any questions or ideas, feel free to open a support ticket there and we will do our best to answer.

    This link will also be included in an email to all WarriorPlus members shortly.

    See the article here:
    Paypal Permissions: What and Why

    I appreciate everyones comments - those who were supportive AND those who were concerned - even those who were misinformed!

    Make it a great day!

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael_Le
    Banned
    But really what hurt the Warrior forum more than anything, is not Mike Lantz, it's these dung loaded WSOs that under deliver and over hype and feed off the dreams and hope from the overwhelmed and over loaded buyers
    LOL..........yeah, and who promotes them, MIKE LANTZ with his WSO of the DAY EMAILS!!!


    @Mike Lantz,

    on what basis do you base your WSO of the Day? correct me if i'm wrong but is it sales and CTR? i mean do you even implement a product before you promote it to the list or do you just skim the pages and think, this looks great and send out a email to the masses?
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Data sharing seems to be the theme of the week. Google sharing search results, now Warriorplus sharing payment history. It's probably doing to get "worse" in regard to the transparency on the internet.

    I'm seriously considering just using my own ecommerce for everything, including WSOs. The only real advantage (if you have your own tracking system that is) is that Warriorplus makes it easy to attract affiliates. But I've found that the affiliates who sell the most are those you connect with proactively, not those who just find you.
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      Data sharing seems to be the theme of the week. Google sharing search results, now Warriorplus sharing payment history. It's probably doing to get "worse" in regard to the transparency on the internet.
      Where does it say that W+ is going to share payment history?
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      Data sharing seems to be the theme of the week. Google sharing search results, now Warriorplus sharing payment history. It's probably doing to get "worse" in regard to the transparency on the internet.

      I'm seriously considering just using my own ecommerce for everything, including WSOs. The only real advantage (if you have your own tracking system that is) is that Warriorplus makes it easy to attract affiliates. But I've found that the affiliates who sell the most are those you connect with proactively, not those who just find you.
      There's really more to it than just that - for one thing, working with individual affiliate programs takes more time and effort. You have to learn how each new program works and remember how to link properly, etc.

      More importantly, there's a degree of trust involved - over the years a lot of marketers have been royally screwed by product owners who failed to pay out commissions.

      What makes these systems so attractive to affiliates is they only have to learn how to use them once and they have an easy way to locate offers to promote. They can do so confidently, knowing they're going to get paid.

      They don't have to worry that the system owner or seller is going to take the money and run, the way they do with these seller-run affiliate programs.

      As to "Data Sharing", data is only shared among the receivers involved, which is appropriate and consistent with industry standards.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    I'm actually really really REALLY damn happy about Mike's changes.

    Because now my assistant doesn't have to do customer service.

    Now we don't have to deal with customer phone calls and tell them we will try our best to get them to the download page that I have no control over as an affiliate.

    I also believe that this minimizes my risk as an affiliate promoting Internet marketing products and risking my account.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    What does potentially worry me about these extra Paypal permissions for Warrior Plus is that you are essentially giving Paypal an even easier way to track all people who are associated with selling WSO's on this forum -- something they have admitted several times of late they are not overly comfortable with.

    They would only need to look for all people who have given W+ these permissions to know those people are selling or promoting WSO's -- if they decide one day they want to get rid of all those people/accounts.

    Originally Posted by Gary_The_Ace View Post

    It's in VERY poor taste to tout the features of your program (advertising it essentially) in this thread...

    -Gary Ambrose
    Snot the first time and I dare say it won't be the last. What some people don't seem to understand is when you have a service or a product that is truly great, you (as the product owner) don't need to do the selling, your customers will do it for you.

    Just saying...
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Gary and Will,

    There were some off the wall assumptions being made about our site throughout the thread and we felt they needed to be addressed. People were speaking of the safety issues and that is all I addressed.

    I don't think it is fair to have negative (and false) security statements said about you without the chance to counter them with the features that support safe commerce... no matter what thread it is.

    Thanks,
    EBR
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    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
      I have not agreed to the permissions. And I am not sure that I will. Because of this, I cannot see the existing wsoplus stats that I purchased and have a right to see.

      I did get irritated 2 weeks ago I bought a WSO of the Day based on Mike L email, a seo product, and after looking at it, and then going back to the salespage proof, I then discovered the entire product was a scam and the salespage screenshots were fake.

      Thus, there are a number of issues. The quality and integrity controls of the WF and WSOPlus is rubbish.

      Because Mike L promoted a scam, with fake proof, which I purchased based on his recommendation, I unsubscribed from it.
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      • Profile picture of the author CyberAlien
        Originally Posted by Mark Dulisse View Post

        The quality and integrity controls of the WF and WSOPlus is rubbish
        I understand saying that for WSO Plus but not for Warrior Forum. I think Warrior Forum makes it pretty clear that they don't actually review products in any way. However, I don't personally think you should be sending out an email to thousands of people saying a WSO is the best one of the day if you haven't tried it. Just my opinion...
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          Mark,

          Did you report the WSO and comment in the thread? Both to the forum and to Mike? The "quality and integrity" controls depend on people like you.

          Have you bought other WSOs through W+ that had value which you decided not to mention?

          Other marketplaces are purely buyer beware. While a bad purchase is always frustrating, when it comes to fraud I have found that the forum moderators and Mike are quick to take action.

          With the new W+ rules it should also be easier for buyers to get refunds since they do not have to go through an affiliate.

          .
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
        Originally Posted by Mark Dulisse View Post

        I have not agreed to the permissions. And I am not sure that I will. Because of this, I cannot see the existing wsoplus stats that I purchased and have a right to see.
        This should not be the case. Stats are available whether or not you complete the new permissions request.

        Originally Posted by Mark Dulisse View Post

        I did get irritated 2 weeks ago I bought a WSO of the Day based on Mike L email, a seo product, and after looking at it, and then going back to the salespage proof, I then discovered the entire product was a scam and the salespage screenshots were fake.

        Thus, there are a number of issues. The quality and integrity controls of the WF and WSOPlus is rubbish.

        Because Mike L promoted a scam, with fake proof, which I purchased based on his recommendation, I unsubscribed from it.
        I have heard nothing of any particular WSO that Warriorplus promoted as being a scam, and nor would we ever knowingly promote such a product.

        While it is impossible to please everyone, I believe the overall quality of products promotes as "WSO of the Day" are very high.

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Bret Ferguson
          He may have meant the Warrior+ "Affiliate" link. It wouldn't open for me unless I agreed to the "new unannounced" conditions.

          I lost stock in reviews when I purchased one based on the "review" and a slick sales letter. The WSO was junk. However I did return it for a refund and deleted it so it didn't waste space on my hard drive.


          Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

          This should not be the case. Stats are available whether or not you complete the new permissions request.



          I have heard nothing of any particular WSO that Warriorplus promoted as being a scam, and nor would we ever knowingly promote such a product.

          While it is impossible to please everyone, I believe the overall quality of products promotes as "WSO of the Day" are very high.

          Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Gary and Will,

      There were some off the wall assumptions being made about our site throughout the thread and we felt they needed to be addressed. People were speaking of the safety issues and that is all I addressed.

      I don't think it is fair to have negative (and false) security statements said about you without the chance to counter them with the features that support safe commerce... no matter what thread it is.

      Thanks,
      EBR
      That's pretty much BS. You and Zim have been all over this thread self-promoting under the guise of clarifying. It would have only taken a paragraph from one of you to address any security concerns.

      This is a WSO Pro thread. I've yet to see Mike Lantz jump into a JVZoo thread. He's got more class than that.

      Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

      No, JVZoo does not ask for any where NEAR the amount of data that he is asking for.

      That's anything and flat out dangerous. Biased or not, there's no way I'd let anyone have that kind of access to any information they want like that.

      You can see what JVZoo requests here       You will see it is FAR less than what is being asked for.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        That's pretty much BS. You and Zim have been all over this thread self-promoting under the guise of clarifying. It would have only taken a paragraph from one of you to address any security concerns.

        This is a WSO Pro thread. I've yet to see Mike Lantz jump into a JVZoo thread. He's got more class than that.
        Get your facts straight before running off at the mouth. JVZoo was specifically brought up in post number 2, 3, 4, 5 and other posts asking if we did the same and other things. That pretty much gives us the right to respond.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

          Get your facts straight before running off at the mouth. JVZoo was specifically brought up in post number 2 and 3 and other posts asking if we did the same and other things. That pretty much gives us the right to respond.
          and respond, and respond, and respond, and respond
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          • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            and respond, and respond, and respond, and respond
            And now, you who is calling out the people from JVZoo on responding, are responding with crap comments of no value to continue a pointless off topic discussion in the thread.

            In complete violation of rule #1, if you have a problem with a guru or a god... well you know
            ...

            Back to the topic at hand,


            In the old system, an affiliate of one of my products (warrior+ in fact) where paid about 14 more sales than me on a 50% commission split. This is a huge amount. Even taking into account refunds the numbers still did not add up.
            And even more issues... If someone didn't have IPN enabled (IE paypal had disabled it for some reason..), their sales would not be counted... on a 50% deal, they'd get every sale after sale 2. Hopefully this fixes that.
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            Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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  • Profile picture of the author careybaird
    I like the move in this direction as it means doing away with the unreliable system of alternating payments.

    In the old system, an affiliate of one of my products (warrior+ in fact) where paid about 14 more sales than me on a 50% commission split. This is a huge amount. Even taking into account refunds the numbers still did not add up.

    After asking W+ they didn't really explain it, but I guess they knew the problems and that they would be changing the system.

    So I am glad to see a more exact way to split up the payments. However.. there is one big thing I don't like the idea of.

    If W+ initiate a refund and I don't have any $ in my account they will do one of two things:

    1) Convert the money from another balance. We all know Paypals currency conversions are weighted, so this will mean I will lose money
    2) Withdraw the money from my bank account, which is in GBP (£). Again, weighted conversion..

    So I will lose more money to Paypal in fees and more importantly it will make my accounting a nightmare with small transactions leaving my bank account. I always refund from my $ balance.

    Anyway, another thing to clarify. If I am selling my own WSO through the W+ do they have the right to override my decision to refund or not? Because, I sell software and there are a few reasons that a refund is not given:

    - If the users shares my software
    - If the user is still using my software
    - If they redistribute my guides as their own content
    etc.
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