Aren't you sick from most web "designers" these days?

50 replies
Most of them use ready templates and just change colors, same goes for logos, yet its more rare regarding logs.
The more i look the more i am amazed.
Iv'e been on Digitalpoint forums and i'm truly shocked, most of them design on templates. No wonder most websites look the same.
Same CSS containers, Same Themeforest bought scripts.
I guess you can sell anything if you have enhanced social / marketing skills.
Obviously there are talented designers out there that know their way around the Pen tool yet its rare, most of them are into making money quick, and quick money is giving a product in a short period of time.

There are unique websites out there, but how many do you remember?
I mean, What website do you remember that you have visited in the last couple of days that truly stuck in you'r mind?
Most websites iv'e been to i cant remember their design. I know simplicity works and its proven, but uniqueness can increase sales and that is a given, yet most wont spend money from their budget on website optimizing unless they are doing really well and want to really squeeze what their website is capable of.

*Website optimizing is running multiple designs / optimizations for the website in order to test which works best and really pushes the client to buy rather than just look, Mostly traffic is divided and sent to various designs for testing, later on data is being collected.*

No such thing as bad data in website optimizing! even if one finds ways that doesn't work then it will always come in handy!

Like Thomas Edison said, I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
#days #designers #sick #web
  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Aren't you sick from most web "designers" these days?

    No. Im sick of whinging clients, that expect the world for $100.

    Then when they dont get it, they post garbage like this on a public forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
      I guess you get what you pay for... ie 100$
      I am not talking about clients that drive designers crazy to tweak this and that.
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      • Profile picture of the author robp12
        I'll second that, although I'll only apply it to the one designer I used, Ogden Media Group.

        I purchased a customization of the Thesis framework for $750. I paid him $375 upfront and then another $375 after he sent me the proof of the design and the estimated completion date. I paid him the initial $375 in July and the second installment in September.

        However, December rolls around and Ogden still hadn't completed my project and wasn't returning my emails quickly. I got fed up and I him I wanted a complete refund as I literally received nothing for my money. He gave me half my money back, but essentially stole the other $375. He charged me $375 for JPEG image of what my design "would have looked like", claiming it was worth something. I contemplated taking him to small claims court, but still haven't taken action yet. I really should sue him though, it's an absolute joke that he stole that money from me.

        Moral of the story, don't get screwed over like me.
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        • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
          Originally Posted by robp12 View Post

          I'll second that, although I'll only apply it to the one designer I used, Ogden Media Group.

          I purchased a customization of the Thesis framework for $750. I paid him $375 upfront and then another $375 after he sent me the proof of the design and the estimated completion date. I paid him the initial $375 in July and the second installment in September.

          However, December rolls around and Ogden still hadn't completed my project and wasn't returning my emails quickly. I got fed up and I him I wanted a complete refund as I literally received nothing for my money. He gave me half my money back, but essentially stole the other $375. He charged me $375 for JPEG image of what my design "would have looked like", claiming it was worth something. I contemplated taking him to small claims court, but still haven't taken action yet. I really should sue him though, it's an absolute joke that he stole that money from me.

          Moral of the story, don't get screwed over like me.
          Wow! This guy has the worst portfolio i have seen! he just used bevel on his text, his CSS file makes me want to cry, his menu is not search engine friendly, and on top of that he used inline style on div tags.
          he has awful loading times due to bad image uses (this is where optimizing goes)

          i feel kinda bad for you, that's alot of money which can provide a supreme design, given you planned on paying around 700$.
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          • Profile picture of the author JOSourcing
            Banned
            Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

            Wow! This guy has the worst portfolio i have seen! he just used bevel on his text, his CSS file makes me want to cry, his menu is not search engine friendly, and on top of that he used inline style on div tags.
            he has awful loading times due to bad image uses (this is where optimizing goes)

            i feel kinda bad for you, that's alot of money which can provide a supreme design, given you planned on paying around 700$.
            All of which were built using standard (as in, free, as in, came with the software) Dreamweaver templates. :-\
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            • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
              Originally Posted by JOSourcing View Post

              All of which were built using standard (as in, free, as in, came with the software) Dreamweaver templates. :-

              True to that!
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          • Profile picture of the author wvdploeg
            Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

            Wow! This guy has the worst portfolio i have seen! he just used bevel on his text, his CSS file makes me want to cry, his menu is not search engine friendly, and on top of that he used inline style on div tags.
            he has awful loading times due to bad image uses (this is where optimizing goes)

            i feel kinda bad for you, that's alot of money which can provide a supreme design, given you planned on paying around 700$.
            Well, the simple fact that the only website in his portfolio is his own, says enough
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    • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
      John,

      Thank you. Just what needed to be said

      Di

      Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

      Aren't you sick from most web "designers" these days?

      No. Im sick of whinging clients, that expect the world for $100.

      Then when they dont get it, they post garbage like this on a public forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
        You guys don't know how the big players roll when it comes to website optimizing and how they catch the clients when they are off balance or in thinking phase, or how they pitch each demographic a different template that suits their "psychological profile".
        There is much more to design than you guys see, it plays a huge rule.
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        • Profile picture of the author Sillysoft
          Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

          You guys don't know how the big players roll when it comes to website optimizing and how they catch the clients when they are off balance or in thinking phase, or how they pitch each demographic a different template that suits their "psychological profile".
          There is much more to design than you guys see, it plays a huge rule.
          I used to work on the development team for one of the big players in the digital marketing world, iCrossing. I have an idea
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          No more...
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          • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
            Originally Posted by Sillysoft View Post

            I used to work on the development team for one of the big players in the digital marketing world, iCrossing. I have an idea
            I was talking about the guys that first commented
            Obviously who ever thanked them is either in the small game (digitalpoint,freelance,odesk and other lancing website) or a short cut taker like i mentioned.
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            • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
              Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

              I was talking about the guys that first commented
              Obviously who ever thanked them is either in the small game (digitalpoint,freelance,odesk and other lancing website) or a short cut taker like i mentioned.

              YouJelly,

              When you have been here a little longer than a month, taken some time to get to know the people that commented, you might have to retract your comment. Don't judge people you have never interacted with and have no clue as to how they operate their business. John is a classic case in point of someone who really knows what he is doing and contributes real value to this forum.

              Di
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              • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
                Originally Posted by DianaHeuser View Post

                YouJelly,

                When you have been here a little longer than a month, taken some time to get to know the people that commented, you might have to retract your comment. Don't judge people you have never interacted with and have no clue as to how they operate their business. John is a classic case in point of someone who really knows what he is doing and contributes real value to this forum.

                Di
                Point taken and implemented, John seems like no web designer though...
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                • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                  Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

                  Point taken and implemented, John seems like no web designer though...
                  Ive been developing websites since 2001.
                  Ive operated as a freelance web designer for several years.
                  Ive been using Dreamweaver almost daily in that time.
                  I have several years of graphic design experience.
                  I have several years of experience programming with javascript, AJAX, xhtml, vbnet, asp.net, and classic asp.
                  I have several years of experience with both MSSQL and MySQL.
                  Ive developed huge database driven member based sites consisting of literally thousands of pages, with thousands of members.
                  Ive made sales of sites that Ive created ranging from $1,500 to $25,000.

                  In all of these years, I probably would've forgotten more code than you know now.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Super Warrior
                    Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

                    In all of these years, I probably would've forgotten more code than you know now.
                    Hahaha! Really nice comment.
                    It makes me remember a line my friend said few days ago,
                    when I asked him how much he drinks (alchohol)?

                    He said "I would've drunk on all those days on which you didn't"... haha!

                    -Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
                  Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

                  Point taken and implemented, John seems like no web designer though...
                  You Jelly

                  You do not have a clue about some of the Warriors and what they do :rolleyes: first off there are some very good designers on here just check out the Warriors for hire! also John has done some of the best designs I have ever seen and you have been here for a farts breath and say the that he is no designer get real...

                  Jason
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by DianaHeuser View Post

                YouJelly,

                When you have been here a little longer than a month, taken some time to get to know the people that commented, you might have to retract your comment. Don't judge people you have never interacted with and have no clue as to how they operate their business. John is a classic case in point of someone who really knows what he is doing and contributes real value to this forum.

                Di
                Di, obviously you don't know who you are talking to.

                YouJelly is a cpa, lawyer, design specialist, optimization guru...

                I am sure we are just touching the surface with his mad skills.

                I can't wait to see more posts of him dropping knowledge in a plethora of unrelated fields that he has mastered.
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    • Profile picture of the author celente
      Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

      Aren't you sick from most web "designers" these days?

      No. Im sick of whinging clients, that expect the world for $100.

      Then when they dont get it, they post garbage like this on a public forum.
      This my friend is the best thing I have read on the warrior forum ALL WEEK.

      You rock johnny!
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    • Profile picture of the author wvdploeg
      Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

      Aren't you sick from most web "designers" these days?

      No. Im sick of whinging clients, that expect the world for $100.

      Then when they dont get it, they post garbage like this on a public forum.
      I think there is a big difference if somebody calls himself a designer or not... I have had customers who paid 100's or more euro for a website consisting of Joomla with some standard template... not bad for 20 minutes work and 1000's of hours heartache for the customer...
      I do not pretend to be a designer: I sell 'total concepts' to my customers consisting of a wordpress based website with either a 'standard' or customized template (depending to their budget), but more important, I sell them a formula how to get revenue from their site! Since a website, how beautiful it is, won't bring you revenue on itself... (although a b***ugly website costs you revenue) And the first thing I say to my customers, is that I'm not a designer... and if they want one, it's not me...
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      • Profile picture of the author Retziki
        Originally Posted by wvdploeg View Post

        I think there is a big difference if somebody calls himself a designer or not... I have had customers who paid 100's or more euro for a website consisting of Joomla with some standard template... not bad for 20 minutes work and 1000's of hours heartache for the customer...
        I do not pretend to be a designer: I sell 'total concepts' to my customers consisting of a wordpress based website with either a 'standard' or customized template (depending to their budget), but more important, I sell them a formula how to get revenue from their site! Since a website, how beautiful it is, won't bring you revenue on itself... (although a b***ugly website costs you revenue) And the first thing I say to my customers, is that I'm not a designer... and if they want one, it's not me...
        That's exactly what i say to my customers
        I introduce myself as a business owner, just like they are.
        I find it easer to build rapport this way. They perceive "computer guys" to be weird. They don't understand them, they talk code instead of business and marketing.
        I pitch the hole not the drill.
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  • Profile picture of the author JOSourcing
    Banned
    Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

    I guess you can sell anything if you have enhanced social / marketing skills.
    I know someone who does this for offline clients and charges upwards of $10,000 and more. I just shake my head and think "if they only knew." Then I wonder what they'll think when they later discover 100 or more websites that look just like the one they paid an arm and a leg for.

    It's a shame.
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    • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
      Originally Posted by JOSourcing View Post

      I know someone who does this for offline clients and charges upwards of $10,000 and more. I just shake my head and think "if they only knew." Then I wonder what they'll think when they later discover 100 or more websites that look just like the one they paid an arm and a leg for.

      It's a shame.
      Hey, welcome to life brother, that is the game of making money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justinfm
    As a designer it's easy to see all the shortcuts that other people take. The question is, "does it have an effect on the client's results?" A template can work well, if it's implemented well and is suitable for the situation. For example, having 10 template based websites targeting specific niches, will out perform a fully customized site created by a graphic designer.

    The bigger issue is that the templates have problems, and if you don't have the skills to fix issues, you're in trouble.
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    • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
      Originally Posted by Justinfm View Post

      As a designer it's easy to see all the shortcuts that other people take. The question is, "does it have an effect on the client's results?" A template can work well, if it's implemented well and is suitable for the situation. For example, having 10 template based websites targeting specific niches, will out perform a fully customized site created by a graphic designer.

      The bigger issue is that the templates have problems, and if you don't have the skills to fix issues, you're in trouble.
      I agree templates can work very well, but most sellers if not all charge like its a custom design! and they don't disclose the full information of the template they are selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author Green Moon
    I don't think the problem is with "most" designers, but I'll admit that there are a lot of people who have no business claiming to be a designer. I've even had the misfortune of hiring some of them.

    No one can just call themselves a doctor or a lawyer. Anyone can call himself a website designer. No training, no testing, no minimum skills are required. Sometimes they are scammers but more often I find that the worst designers are simply clueless people who think their designs are good.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    A real designer is going to charge you a heck of a lot more than what you are paying for a template on DP. There are some great designers that I know of who can punch out some terrific product, but you have to be willing to pay for these services.
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    • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
      Yea i understand the money issue which most of newbies having when they start their first website, and most of them lack the knowledge of how vital a design is, thus taking short cuts.

      Like most WSO sellers here they use amazing keywords in each WSO they sell, i'm constantly amazed of what psychological triggers they put in, how well the content is organized, the paragraphs, the spacing, emotional targeting, plain colors like red,black,white,yellow.

      My point is, that the same goes for website design yet not implemented by lancers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
    Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

    ...

    There are unique websites out there, but how many do you remember?
    I mean, What website do you remember that you have visited in the last couple of days that truly stuck in you'r mind?
    Most websites iv'e been to i cant remember their design. I know simplicity works and its proven, but uniqueness can increase sales and that is a given, yet most wont spend money from their budget on website optimizing unless they are doing really well and want to really squeeze what their website is capable of.

    ...
    One site that stands out for me is apple.com.

    They are always the benchmark for design (in my eyes). They have simplicity and your eye knows exactly where to go (your eye naturally follows where they want it to).

    -Simon
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    • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
      Originally Posted by Simon Ashari View Post

      One site that stands out for me is apple.com.

      They are always the benchmark for design (in my eyes). They have simplicity and your eye knows exactly where to go (your eye naturally follows where they want it to).

      -Simon
      Exactly my friend! That is what website optimizing is all about.

      Originally Posted by TravisA View Post

      Here is a common scenario: Client wants a website. Client has no idea what is involved with web development. Client wants a full backend and a custom front end. Client has no content. Client has no logo. Client has no color scheme. Client has no idea what design style they want. Client wants it all for under 500 dollars.

      Now, from a designers perspective you can do one of two things. Say no and pass up on the quick 500 dollars or say yes and tell them you will give them a slightly modified template on a CMS backend.

      IF they want something more, a real website quote of 10,000-30,000 dollars will generally give them an idea of what they are requesting.

      I've developed large scale sites from the ground up, that run in the 15,000 range at 75/h (which is very reasonable). But more than not, the small time businesses and associations who can not afford the cost will often have to settle for a pre-made template.

      If you want to do 200 hours of work for 500 dollars, good luck. Not to mention having to deal with fence riding, penny pinching, non designers always asking you to make the logo look a little bit bigger.

      Just my experience.
      I get what you are saying, it is obvious that the work is given to what its worth / being paid for.
      I'm also familiar with the hustle and uncertainty of clients when they request for a job and how the seller always needs to steer them towards a good overall design, like i mentioned, most don't reveal its a template.

      Travis, may i see you'r works, projects?
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  • Profile picture of the author TravisA
    Here is a common scenario: Client wants a website. Client has no idea what is involved with web development. Client wants a full backend and a custom front end. Client has no content. Client has no logo. Client has no color scheme. Client has no idea what design style they want. Client wants it all for under 500 dollars.

    Now, from a designers perspective you can do one of two things. Say no and pass up on the quick 500 dollars or say yes and tell them you will give them a slightly modified template on a CMS backend.

    IF they want something more, a real website quote of 10,000-30,000 dollars will generally give them an idea of what they are requesting.

    I've developed large scale sites from the ground up, that run in the 15,000 range at 75/h (which is very reasonable). But more than not, the small time businesses and associations who can not afford the cost will often have to settle for a pre-made template.

    If you want to do 200 hours of work for 500 dollars, good luck. Not to mention having to deal with fence riding, penny pinching, non designers always asking you to make the logo look a little bit bigger.

    Just my experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author monkseo
    A bigger problem is dealing with people who want websites and have no idea how they want them, or have never thought about what keywords they want to target, the demographics of the users, the offer, the call to action... etc. Most web designers are very good when you tell them exactly what you want and come with plans, both written and visual, even if scanned in napkins. Another problem is that people have no idea what it takes, or how much time it takes to truly create a really nice looking website, that is programmed well, and converts whatever offer is being presented. None of that is taking into account getting traffic. Which is a whole other topic
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    Whats worst is designers that say they are SEO experts...lol
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  • Profile picture of the author WhiteDove
    You get what you pay for is right...
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    War Room Member

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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Iv'e been on Digitalpoint forums
    That's your problem, right there.

    If you're looking for someone good - simply ask for recommendations, if someone is recommended by more than one person, chances are, they're worth the money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    This is something we see more and more offline, ie the template customization for 100$. But there is market for both clients: high paying and low paying - no one makes you work only with one of them, right?
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    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by YouJelly View Post

    Most of them use ready templates and just change colors, same goes for logos, yet its more rare regarding logs.
    The more i look the more i am amazed.
    Iv'e been on Digitalpoint forums and i'm truly shocked
    If you're looking for designers on Fiverr or DP, you aren't really looking for designers. You get what you pay for. Pay peanuts ... get monkeys.
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  • Profile picture of the author DigitalDanny
    To bad that this is how it has become. Install a theme, change logo and ready.
    Both clients and developers should be aware of all the useless "junk" that is added in the themes. By spend some extra time to optimize/tweak the site you can deliver a product/service far better than just change the logo and a few colors.
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  • Profile picture of the author sts2k
    I have been in the business for almost 10 years now, freelancing the past couple. From my experience, the clients that pay the least tends to be the most picky, obnoxious and gives you the hardest time. I do softwares as well as websites/graphics and the clients that pay for example $65/hour are less likely to hassle you than someone who offers to pay you something like $15/hour and wants you to build them the next facebook.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    having designed more marketing websites than probably any designer on the planet (I started back in 2000 till i "retired" in 2005) i can tell you this...

    very few designers understand marketing and how to design for conversion... and even fewer of those designers who do, are able to execute it properly and without it looking like a 3rd grader did it in 1999.

    you're on digitalpoint forums.

    'nuff said.

    i don't make my living designing anymore, i was smart enough to learn from my clients (most of the 'gurus' you already know) and start my own offers....

    these days i do it for fun and to stay sharp... that said, i am sometimes available for hire, depending on the project... and I'm *very* expensive.

    and yes, you DEFINITELY get what you pay for.
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    • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      having designed more marketing websites than probably any designer on the planet (I started back in 2000 till i "retired" in 2005) i can tell you this...

      very few designers understand marketing and how to design for conversion... and even fewer of those designers who do, are able to execute it properly and without it looking like a 3rd grader did it in 1999.

      you're on digitalpoint forums.

      'nuff said.

      i don't make my living designing anymore, i was smart enough to learn from my clients (most of the 'gurus' you already know) and start my own offers....

      these days i do it for fun and to stay sharp... that said, i am sometimes available for hire, depending on the project... and I'm *very* expensive.

      and yes, you DEFINITELY get what you pay for.
      exactly....

      who wants a brilliant looking site that does not convert?

      I rather have a rough loooking site that makes money :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author Bredfan
        Clients who expect the world for $100.... EXACTLY! Happens all the time. Blah!

        My company (offline local SEO mostly) does design, but we do it kicking and screaming. When a client comes to us for SEO and has a two page site template from VistaPrint, we have no choice. We've got to get them something that we can work with.

        So for somewhere between $750 and $3000 we'll build them a site. I always build on Genesis, customizing the chosen child theme.

        I guess to a non-IM'er, or non-designer, my company would be considered a "website design company."

        But - for a thousand bucks, doing a full custom site is a non starter. Heck, for 3000 bucks, a full custom site is a non starter (for me anyway).

        What bugs me is designers claiming to be SEO's. Most - at least many - haven't a clue.
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  • Profile picture of the author rooze
    Most 'professional' designers refer to their back-catalog when starting a new project. They take an existing design and rework it, or they piece together several previous designs to achieve the styling and functionality they need for the new client, all fully customized to create the 'look and feel' they are aiming for. So In a sense most of what you see is born from some form of template. It's called 'efficiency'. When I'm hand writing notes I take a pad of lined paper. I don't use paper and draw my own lines on it.
    What's the point of this thread anyway? - bashing designers?
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  • Profile picture of the author GSMarketing
    All,

    This is an extremely interesting thread and I've just spent the last 10mins reading every post.

    As a newbie and someone who is looking to be receiving quotes next week for a website build I'm now somewhat nervous. I agree you with the old adage of you get what you pay for, but that only holds true if you're dealing with an honest party. I don't want to spend $1500 on a template that I could of just picked up myself for free. So I guess my question is how do I choose a designer? Any suggestions on avenues to go down etc?

    I also have the problem of not knowing the complexity of building a site and as such have no scale by which to measure costings. For example I wouldn't know if what I was asking for would take 1 or 10 hours. Is there anyway for me to rectify this naivity?

    Cheers

    G
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    • Profile picture of the author Bredfan
      Hey GSMarketing - kind of off the OP topic... but my $0.02 is that if you're going to be building sites for IM... start using WordPress and learn it yourself. Unless you have the cash to always outsource.

      I'm SO happy that I took the time to learn...now updating, adding, launching, etc is based only on my ability to schedule the time.

      Something to think about.

      For 1500 I wouldn't expect a full custom site. That's just me...
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    • Profile picture of the author YouJelly
      [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Cutts
    I think its a case of that 'you' know how to use the template and they dont....

    who cares if it is a template? If they are happy with the design so what?

    I am not a web designer but I do sell built sites to clients and they are over the mooon with them.

    Web design is not what it use to be... with the use of wordpress you dont even need to know code to get a decent site built and looking professional....

    Dont rip people off but charge what its worth and what your time is worth

    Danny
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    • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
      Originally Posted by Danny Cutts View Post

      ...

      who cares if it is a template? If they are happy with the design so what?

      I am not a web designer but I do sell built sites to clients and they are over the mooon with them.

      ...
      Gotta agree with this. A site may be from a generic template, but if it looks good (and the customer is happy) then all is well.

      I'd guess that most people don't want original sites but sites that work and look decent.

      -Simon
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      • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
        Originally Posted by Simon Ashari View Post

        Gotta agree with this. A site may be from a generic template, but if it looks good (and the customer is happy) then all is well.
        All is well IF that site converts for him.

        The use of templates can be a pain cause vast majority of them are NICE designs, but NOT high converting machines.

        I'd guess that most people don't want original sites but sites that work and look decent.
        Yup. And that, unfortunately, you don't find that often in templates.
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        People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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