Disturbing trend in recent days...

52 replies
Over the past week, I've seen several threads started which assume anyone and everyone doing certain things is breaking the law... but they're wrong.

We have a general policy here that you don't ask for legal advice on the forum, and I honestly don't see why people should be volunteering it either.

I've seen people who don't charge sales tax told they're breaking the law, but not everything is taxable.

I've seen people who "spin" articles called thieves, when not everything is copyright protected.

I've seen people who need licensing for their images called pirates, when some of us actually get the damn licence.

But what really bothers me is that this amounts to telling other people how to run their business - not in the productive manner of saying "I do this and here is why," but in the destructive manner of saying "stop doing this because it is wrong."

We are not the internet business police.

I am a firm believer in doing things my way - writing quality content, licensing my images properly, ignoring keyword research and SEO entirely. That's natural. And telling people what I do and how I do it is a good way to encourage my idea of "proper" business.

You don't have to agree. That's the thing about business; whatever you think is the right way to run a business, someone else is out there running a different one. And there's nothing wrong with this.

But I find it very wrong indeed when you start pointing at someone else's business model and saying "that is a bad business." Especially when your reasoning is simplistic and flawed.

I'd really like to see a return to advice like "you should do what I'm doing," and a whole lot less of "you should not do what you're doing." An awful lot of the stuff you don't recommend is also stuff you don't understand - because, since you don't do it, you don't need to understand it.

We say this over and over again: in general, you're qualified to teach the things you do well. So where do any of us get off teaching not to do the things we don't do at all?
#days #disturbing #recent #trend
  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I am pretty much with you although I don't really see the harm in a bit of spirited discussion about most any topic relevant to internet business / marketing. I think that if done tastefully, it furthers everyone's understanding of the topic.

    The thing people have to keep in mind is that this is a discussion forum and not a fact forum. That means that in every discussion, you are likely to get some good and some bad advice / opinions.

    Its up to the end users to decide how and when they use and of the advice given here about anything.

    I personally don't have a problem one with a spirited discussion even when I am in the minority. In those situations, I usually learn something and in a few cases, I am able to help others learn something as well.

    But I will Probably bow out of this discussion for the most part. I have already "picked my fight" for the week in the thread that probably largely inspired this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author rooze
    In spite of all the hogwash that gets perpetrated as 'fact', I do think that the debate about 'business ethics' has a place in this forum. It's sometimes hard to separate legal and ethical when discussing certain matters, which usually leads to the two becoming confused.
    Open discussion/debate about business ethics can only help those wanting to learn to do things the right way, which I firmly believe benefits us all in the long run.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by rooze View Post

      In spite of all the hogwash that gets perpetrated as 'fact', I do think that the debate about 'business ethics' has a place in this forum.
      I agree, the frank discussion of business ethics has a place here.

      But when people start threads about "hey, these other people are doing this thing I think is unethical," that doesn't actually help anyone with business ethics. Telling someone "that is wrong, don't do it" does not in any way answer the two major questions that inevitably arise:

      1. What do people get out of that in the first place?

      2. What should I be doing to get that instead?

      When you're not personally doing something because you think it's wrong (which, of course, is how most of us react to the idea that something is wrong: we don't do it), chances are pretty good you don't know the answer to the first question, which leaves you unqualified to answer the second.

      Take the idea of "scraping web sites and spinning the articles." When you tell people "don't do this," those two questions come up, and the guy bitching about how you're not supposed to do it doesn't have a good answer... because he's simply not qualified to talk about why anyone would scrape-and-spin.

      I'm not qualified, either, so "don't scrape-and-spin" isn't advice I'd start a thread to give out. Not because I don't agree with it, but because - again - I'm simply not qualified to talk about it.

      So instead, I advise people to write their own original articles or hire freelance writers to write original articles. Because that is something I know about. But if your business doesn't look like mine, maybe that advice is not good for you. Among other things, you may have a business that doesn't use articles in the first place.

      The ethics of scraping and spinning are certainly something worth talking about, but that's an entire class of behaviour. Saying nobody should be doing that in any way for any reason is an awfully broad brush.
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    • Profile picture of the author MattCatania
      Originally Posted by rooze View Post

      I do think that the debate about 'business ethics' has a place in this forum.
      Let's hope we don't decide to debate this in the following manner:


      We all know how that ended.

      (something like this)

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      Logic outweighs all.

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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by rooze View Post

      ... the debate about 'business ethics' has a place in this forum.
      True. But even that requires knowledge of ethical theory, not mere opinion
      masquerading as 'fact'.

      I'm sure no more than a tiny fraction of this forum's readership can tell what
      teleological and deontological ethics are, leave alone apply that framework to
      decisions taken in the course of daily activities!

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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      • Profile picture of the author rooze
        Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        True. But even that requires knowledge of ethical theory, not mere opinion
        masquerading as 'fact'.
        Agreed. On 'life matters' we tend to think that we come pre-wired to understand right from wrong (even though we're not), but on business ethics, much of it needs to be taught.

        One of the most conflicted instances of business ethics gone wrong came from a person I encountered a couple years ago. He was/is a devout 'Christian', a family man, respected in his social circles, a church go'er, etc.
        He wouldn't allow a cuss word to go unchallenged, yet when he wore his business hat he seemed to think that the same rules and standards no longer applied.
        He was/is a cheat, a borderline crook in his business activities, yet he appeared able to conduct his business affairs with a clear conscience.

        "There's nowt so queer as folk". :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author moneyroom
          I agree. Most of the time when I see a post that deals with ethical business practices I just ignore it.

          I try not to allow negative influence into my life and business. Attract positive, smart, willing to learn, willing to pay for what you have, legitimate people and your business will flourish.

          Don't let negative things affect your business.

          That's it for me on this topic. I'm out!
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  • Profile picture of the author Lou Diamond
    Hello,
    I have seen a few posts that are genuine, domain hijacking, that is a very scary trend.
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  • Profile picture of the author davejug1
    Yea tricky one, it's a forum after all, discussion and personal/business views are always going to trump the factual posts. Plus in some cases, factual cases can come across as spammy or self-promoting.

    Anyway CDarklock, you always have something interesting to say whether i agree with it or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author MissLauraCatella
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    ignoring keyword research and SEO entirely.
    But there are like 2 BILLION Google searches a day! You're doing it all wrong!~! :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Flyingpig7
    Hello Darklock,



    You're right though we all have opinions and are quite entitled to them but the word respect appears to be missing on some threads when people explain what they do and what works for them. Just because a method doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it's wrong or illegal; we all have choices and we make the choice on how we run our businesses the way that works for us.

    This is a journey and along this journey we learn from experience what works and what doesn't.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marko87
    I totally agree. If there is a practice you believe is illegal or unethical simply don't do it.

    I'm amazed at how angry people get at other people's businesses, if you don't like it, don't do it, simple.

    One thing I also have a problem with is the really aggressive and nasty comments made by some people on these issues. I was reading a thread last week and a guy asked about using pictures on his website and somebody in the thread actually wished jail time upon him.

    Now the person who started the thread hadn't even used these images on his website and was merely asking for some advice before uploading them to his site and the sheer amount of spiteful and nasty comments was uncalled for.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnweyer
    methinks those that can - do; those that can't - tell everyone else how to. Now, I can but I'm not close to where I want to be. I'm still learning. CDarklock - your posts and comments are always logical and sane. A pleasure to read.
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    Wow ... is this the same CD that, just last week, was raising Cain when a young lady was asking about using proxies in her business?

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ernatives.html
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Caliban,
      We are not the internet business police.
      Smartest comment of the past week.
      We say this over and over again: in general, you're qualified to teach the things you do well. So where do any of us get off teaching not to do the things we don't do at all?
      Dumbest comment-from-a-smart-person of the past week.

      The logical extension of this is the suggestion that the more honest a person is, the less they should say about how to do business honestly.

      Marko,
      I'm amazed at how angry people get at other people's businesses, if you don't like it, don't do it, simple.
      And don't tell other people not to do it? Like "Don't steal my content and re-post it under your name?"

      I don't personally care if you don't like my opinion on that. If you do that, you're a thief. A talentless leech who lives off the efforts of other, more creative and productive people.

      It's useful to hear differing opinions, especially educated ones about complex topics like copyright and originality of content. It is not useful to make general suggestions like "If you don't do it, don't talk about it."


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        The logical extension of this is...
        Precisely what logic is that? "Be honest" is not the same as "don't be dishonest." Fallacy of the undistributed middle. So the positive "be honest" is more useful than the negative "don't be dishonest," because it identifies desirable behaviour directly instead of by implication.

        Not doing something isn't experience not doing it. It's nothing. It doesn't qualify you for squat.
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Marko87
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        Marko,And don't tell other people not to do it? Like "Don't steal my content and re-post it under your name?"

        I don't personally care if you don't like my opinion on that. If you do that, you're a thief. A talentless leech who lives off the efforts of other, more creative and productive people.

        It's useful to hear differing opinions, especially educated ones about complex topics like copyright and originality of content. It is not useful to make general suggestions like "If you don't do it, don't talk about it."


        Paul
        With all due respect I think you are somewhat missing the point I was trying to make (I probably didn't put it across very well after re reading my post).

        What I was trying to get at was that the differing opinions on said subjects aren't educated, factual or helpful.

        What they are, or become, 99% of the time are factually incorrect, holier than thou tirades that usually descend into name calling and childish statements wishing misfortune upon people.

        I love well informed rational debates, often that is where you can learn the best information. However, given what I have said usually happens, I'd rather not hear about it at all than have to wade through a bunch of emotionally charged garbage.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      Wow ... is this the same CD that, just last week, was raising Cain when a young lady was asking about using proxies in her business?
      See if you can't do the math on why that's not the same thing.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • At first I was going to just click away from this post because I really do have a head ache and thought to my self "Who cares!"

    But as I thought about it I felt I needed to express an opinion. (Qualified or not.)

    As I looked at the posts and read them, I realized that each one had a correct point of view for this platform of expression. If that were not the case then I would have no desire to spend the time here that I do.

    I might add that I agree with some and disagree with some but isn't that the beauty of open forum discussion?

    CDarklock Quote: I'm not qualified, either, so "don't scrape-and-spin" isn't advice I'd start a thread to give out. Not because I don't agree with it, but because - again - I'm simply not qualified to talk about it.
    I would agree that this may not be a good supposition to start a thread with and the OP should be told this. But in telling them are we not pointing a finger at their poor forum manners? Maybe not. Besides are we qualified to do so? What are those qualifications and who determines them in this case?

    However the bigger thing that concerns me is the opinion that on a free and open discussion platform such as the WF that there seems to be a line some where that makes one "qualified" to discuss something or not.

    Maybe I'm naive but in this environment having an opinion makes us qualified even if it may be at the "stupid" level to some readers. This openness to having "all" discussion white or black, right or wrong, simple or complex is what makes people drawn to this place.

    Granted if this was the "New England Journal of Medicine" then qualification to contribute may be and should be considered.

    Besides if a thread, post or statements therein are not appropriate that is what moderation is for.

    Just my opinion and take it for what it's worth!

    ld Dog...
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  • Profile picture of the author trilogy9013
    I have to highly agree!! I don't mind when people express a fact about something (using copyrighted images) with factual information, but there are far too many people giving opinions and not stating them as opinions. Just a lot of bad advice out there
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Caliban,

    Now you're just arguing to be right. It is not necessary that someone have experience robbing a bank to tell people that robbing banks is dishonest, destructive, and dangerous, and that they shouldn't do it.


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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Caliban,

      Now you're just arguing to be right. It is not necessary that someone have experience robbing a bank to tell people that robbing banks is dishonest, destructive, and dangerous, and that they shouldn't do it.


      Paul
      Hey paul,

      I am certainly not about to get into a full debate, but I think some (many things in marketing) are much more gray areas than robbing a bank.

      What I took from caliban's post was that people should not try to impose their ethics onto other people much less call out a group of people in a forum because they don't like something they do even though its not illegal... especially when there are many shades of gray involved.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Now you're just arguing to be right.
      Yes, that is why one argues. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition. In this case, that if one intends to express an opinion, that opinion is not absolved of the need to be informed simply because it says NOT to do something.

      When someone says "build AdSense blogs as a cornerstone of your business," we don't accept that blindly. We want to know who is saying that and why.

      But when someone says "don't build AdSense blogs as a cornerstone of your business," we don't seem to be exerting the same standards. The negative nature of the assertion changes our behaviour, and it shouldn't.

      It is not necessary that someone have experience robbing a bank to tell people that robbing banks is against the law.
      Fixed that for you. Notice that this is a fact, involving no personal judgment whatsoever. If you are unsure where the line is, there need be no debate: you simply refer to the law.

      But we're not seeing people talk about robbing banks, we're seeing them talk about walking into banks to get money. Then they're speculating that the person getting the money doesn't have an account, because if they did they would use the ATM.

      But if a person who does have an account writes me a cheque, I could walk into that person's bank and cash the cheque. I do not need an account to cash that cheque there.

      That is not robbing the bank. It is also not dishonest, destructive, dangerous, or against the law.

      There are many other things I could do, as well. I could deposit the cheque at my own bank and take the money out of my own account, which I could do either at the window or at an ATM. But if I choose not to do that, I don't need to explain my reasons.

      The crucial distinction here is that things are being discussed which are not matters of fact. They are opinions, and we generally require opinions to be informed. Consider the following.

      Joe builds AdSense blogs as his main income, and he starts a thread about building AdSense blogs. He is equally qualified to say that he does or does not recommend this to other people.

      Bob has never built an AdSense blog, ever. He starts a thread about building AdSense blogs. He is also equally qualified to say that he does or does not recommend this - specifically, he's not very qualified at all.

      But lately, we are not questioning people like Bob as rigorously when they say not to do something.

      We would rake Bob over the coals if he said "go build AdSense blogs," because he knows nothing about them.

      We would also rake Joe over the coals if he said not to build them, because we would consider it hypocrisy. So we don't simply have a lower standard for negative statements.

      But when Bob starts a thread and says not to do something that he himself has never done, we all seem to just nod our heads and accept that Bob's principles (to combat dishonesty, destruction, and danger) are good principles - whether his assertion is accurate or not.

      For example, Chris drags in one of the example threads (which he himself started) and asks whether we can agree that a very different assertion is accurate. Yes. Yes, we can. And we can agree that this assertion is one which evidences many good moral and ethical principles.

      But just like the example Paul uses of "robbing a bank," the new assertion is about something illegal. The original was not. It's not that I disagree with the principles that "spinning someone else's copyrighted content" violates, it's that the original assertion conveniently omitted the fact that much content on the internet is not copyrightable. The new assertion is dramatically different from the original.
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  • Profile picture of the author RySpencer
    I totally agree with what you are saying here. I did notice these few threads, and most of them involve people telling others what to do.

    I just saw a post on a friends Facebook that went like this:

    If you don't like gay marriages... don't get one.
    If you don't like guns... don't buy one.
    If you don't like alcohol... don't drink.
    If you don't like smoking... don't smoke.
    If you don't like sex... don't have any.
    If you don't like your freedom taken away from you... don't take it away from others.
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by RySpencer View Post

      I just saw a post on a friends Facebook that went like this:

      If you don't like gay marriages... don't get one.
      If you don't like guns... don't buy one.
      If you don't like alcohol... don't drink.
      If you don't like smoking... don't smoke.
      If you don't like sex... don't have any.
      If you don't like your freedom taken away from you... don't take it away from others.
      in other words, if we all just MYOFB, the world would be a heck of a better place.

      love this post!
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  • Profile picture of the author kalens99
    I will admit that I have judgments on certain things, but I try not to assault anyone over them. Attacking other people only destroys your own credibility. There are some situations where someone could be involved in something that is blatantly illegal (i.e. selling cocaine) but even then I shut about it. If someone is involved in something blantanly illegal I don't want to get on their hit list by calling them out. I might report them to the FBI, but I don't have any reason to call them out. It's not my business to school them on ethics.

    However, I may make exceptions. If someone is scraping content, I may get very POed about it. Freelance writing and blogging is where much of my income comes from. People who steal content like that are threatening my livelihood whether it's my content or someone else's and I have every right to get mad about it. Still I have never had to call someone out for this (although I have ranted about it on Facebook when some of my articles were stolen).

    You make a point about how someone else's business model is no one else's business. I agree, except where their business infringes on their own or that of one of their friends. In that case I feel I have every right to speak up.

    As for advice on article spinners etc. I have given advice against using them. In those cases, my advice had nothing to do with ethics. It was purely practical. I have told people that in many cases spun content is unlikely to get indexed and doesn't look write to readers. That isn't always the case and others can feel free to intrepret things on their own. Frankly, I don't care if someone else uses spun content, because I don't think it gives them an unfair advantage over anyone else or threatens my living as a writer.

    In that case, I don't see anything wrong with given someone practical advice about what you think works and what doesn't. However, that advice is always solicited. If someone doesn't ask me for advice on whether or not they should use spun content I keep my mouth shut.

    However, those are my preferences. Anyone else can tell you whatever they like. And it is of course your right to tell them to bleep off. I respect people's right to say everything they want even if they don't have a darn thing worth listening to.
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  • Profile picture of the author WarriorForumFan
    Forget about those people they probably have personal problems in their own lives that is why they push those feelings onto other people.

    They are probably are making little money white hat or black hat

    They have no abundance mentality

    Forget about them, Don't get sucked into their tiny world.
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  • Profile picture of the author WarriorForumFan
    KALENS99

    You know that people steel articles online its rampant, right?

    If you know this then why are you not protecting your articles with software and techniques, like disabling "right click copy" on your website.

    EVERYBODY...you are all not dumb

    For every white hat techniques their is a black hat technique and the white hatrs make new protection for the black hat technique and so on. Protect yourselves and don't get lazy.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    I would never start a thread like this in my business ;-)

    I'm not a lawyer though so don't take my advice to heart.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    We are not the internet business police.

    Nor are we the Internet Common Sense Police, Caliban.


    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    But I find it very wrong indeed when you start pointing at someone else's business model and saying "that is a bad business." Especially when your reasoning is simplistic and flawed.

    Rocket Scientists are rare in these parts.... So many arguments really need to be put into simplistic terms so that more people might comprehend the arguments...


    p.s. Isn't this thread a bit of "pot, kettle, black?" :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Funniest case of the pot calling the kettle black I have seen in quite a while.

    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    We have a general policy here that you don't ask for legal advice on the forum, and I honestly don't see why people should be volunteering it either.
    Indeed and I agree for the most part, but is it really wrong to point out that spinning sommebody elses copyrighted content is classified as derivative content? And against the law? A subject which seems to come up weekly.

    I've seen people who don't charge sales tax told they're breaking the law, but not everything is taxable.
    Agree entirely. With respect to Australia, WillR was in fact spot on however.

    I've seen people who "spin" articles called thieves, when not everything is copyright protected.
    What would you call someone who spins other peoples copyrighted works? A very bad boy?

    Indeed, Iv said many times that article spinning can be helpfull when using PLR and selling unique packs for more money.

    I've seen people who need licensing for their images called pirates, when some of us actually get the damn licence.
    Isn't that what a pirate does? Steal from other people? For example;

    Using an unlicenced image for commercial purposes costs the photographer, the subject/s, and the licencing company by robbing them of their rightfull income(Royalties etc.)

    I don't recall anybody being called a pirate though. I certainly don't recall stating everybody in the world is guilty of this.

    But what really bothers me is that this amounts to telling other people how to run their business - not in the productive manner of saying "I do this and here is why," but in the destructive manner of saying "stop doing this because it is wrong."
    It's wrong to tell somebody doing something wrong that they are doing something wrong? That's destructive?

    Seriously though, I agree, but then again, some things shouldn't need explaining.

    I am a firm believer in doing things my way - writing quality content, licensing my images properly, ignoring keyword research and SEO entirely. That's natural. And telling people what I do and how I do it is a good way to encourage my idea of "proper" business.
    Good.

    You don't have to agree. That's the thing about business; whatever you think is the right way to run a business, someone else is out there running a different one. And there's nothing wrong with this.
    Indeed

    But I find it very wrong indeed when you start pointing at someone else's business model and saying "that is a bad business." Especially when your reasoning is simplistic and flawed.
    Pointing at the late Pablo Escobars drug business, calling it a bad business and against the law is wrong and simplistic?

    I'd really like to see a return to advice like "you should do what I'm doing," and a whole lot less of "you should not do what you're doing." An awful lot of the stuff you don't recommend is also stuff you don't understand - because, since you don't do it, you don't need to understand it.
    I don't recommend people drive while heavily intoxicated. I don't think you need to do so in order to understand why it's wrong, stupid and illegal.

    We say this over and over again: in general, you're qualified to teach the things you do well. So where do any of us get off teaching not to do the things we don't do at all?
    Silly statement.

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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    Over the past week, I've seen several threads started which assume anyone and everyone doing certain things is breaking the law... but they're wrong.

    We have a general policy here that you don't ask for legal advice on the forum, and I honestly don't see why people should be volunteering it either.
    ...
    But I find it very wrong indeed when you start pointing at someone else's business model and saying "that is a bad business." Especially when your reasoning is simplistic and flawed.
    Give the man a cigar!



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  • Profile picture of the author thriftgirl62
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


    But what really bothers me is that this amounts to telling other people how to run their business - not in the productive manner of saying "I do this and here is why," but in the destructive manner of saying "stop doing this because it is wrong."

    We are not the internet business police.

    I am a firm believer in doing things my way - writing quality content, licensing my images properly, ignoring keyword research and SEO entirely. That's natural. And telling people what I do and how I do it is a good way to encourage my idea of "proper" business.

    I'd really like to see a return to advice like "you should do what I'm doing," and a whole lot less of "you should not do what you're doing." An awful lot of the stuff you don't recommend is also stuff you don't understand - because, since you don't do it, you don't need to understand it.

    We say this over and over again: in general, you're qualified to teach the things you do well. So where do any of us get off teaching not to do the things we don't do at all?
    Doing what's right or wrong is learned behavior - people learn what they live, see and associate with. I think what you mean is mind your own business and quit judging others for being different or doing something crazy. You can't teach natural talent and more than you can teach the things you don't do.

    What I would like to see is more community and less competition between members. Marketers can teach a few people with their talent, but they can USE that talent even more by HELPING their subscribers get their own customers outside this forum instead of [like this example illustrates] "teaching" [or turning] members into their own affiliates and repeat [rabid] buyers.

    Overly critical people, never admit the reason for all that righteous indignation is really about someone else getting away with doing something they would never have the nerve to do. Wrong has nothing to do with having enough balls to take calculated risks once in awhile.

    Okay, Mr. CDarlock this post might just make your day -piss you off - maybe both. Question: If you [or anyone else] have enough time, can you please go to page 3 near the bottom and see if what I posted there is what you meant by "a return to advice like "you should do what I'm doing," because I'm doing A LOT MORE than I can handle by myself so I'm telling people what I'm doing and I don't want to sound like I'm selling something because that's not it. Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    I'd really like to see a return to advice like "you should do what I'm doing," and a whole lot less of "you should not do what you're doing." An awful lot of the stuff you don't recommend is also stuff you don't understand - because, since you don't do it, you don't need to understand it.

    We say this over and over again: in general, you're qualified to teach the things you do well. So where do any of us get off teaching not to do the things we don't do at all?
    Hi Caliban,

    I get where you're coming from and in general I agree, but I definitely wouldn't want to see people saying "you should do what I'm doing".

    For exactly the same reasons as you just mentioned for the other situation:

    Just because YOU are doing something doesn't mean I should be doing it.

    There are almost always things one person doesn't know about which apply to others. So while you might think that your business model is solid, it might be founded on doing something I hate and would never want to spend my time doing.

    So while you could have a sound business model and think that telling others to follow it was good advice - for some it may be, but for others it would be exactly the wrong thing for them.

    So while I wholeheartedly agree that people should focus more on what to do, rather than what NOT to do, I think that it's also important to consider the fact that we're all different and just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean you should only tell people to do what you do.

    I like SEO and get great results doing it, so naturally I would consider if it was useful to someone else, but certainly wouldn't think it was a good idea to tell everyone else to do it just because I do it.

    That's the thing about this community - it's very diverse, so while there will be some people who have a negative mindset and are naturally drawn to wanting to know what NOT to do, rather than find that a problem, I think it helps if people just accept the diversity and say "hey, you might not be into this stuff - that's fine, but this is what works for me" rather than put any judgement on it and try to tell people what to specifically to do.

    Of course there will also be a contingent of people who literally want to be told exactly what to do, so one size will never fit all.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I am not yet experienced at falling off of a cliff, but I do advise my children not to walk near the cliff's edge.
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    • Profile picture of the author gvsridhar171
      If there is a reward to be given to any one in WF, it should be given to you my friend for posting such a wonderful thread. Those two threads about "Writer" and "Internet Marketer" really disturbed my mind too a lot. I was wondering what does it matter to them on 'how we do business' so long as we are not cheating anyone.

      This thread has really given me a great relief and my heartfelt thanks to you for bringing this out my friend.

      I have thanked many of them who have posted a reply to your thread supporting your point.
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  • Profile picture of the author DWaters
    I have two schools of thought about this issue. Some folks are here seeking good advise and they can learn and be helped by some information..... and that is good. On the other hand I am reminded of a saying used by long distance hikers on the Appalachian Trail - "hike your own hike". I am a big believer in self responsibility so I think people should run their own business! Do your research and make what you think is the correct decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law.

    Are we better people for leaving the ignorant, ignorant?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Owww, my brain hurts..........where's my coffee mug?

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  • Profile picture of the author Bret Ferguson
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    I'd really like to see a return to advice like "you should do what I'm doing," and a whole lot less of "you should not do what you're doing." An awful lot of the stuff you don't recommend is also stuff you don't understand - because, since you don't do it, you don't need to understand it.
    Didn't this just nullify your thread, they're doing it wrong? Joking!
    I think the biggest thing is "how you say it." (Not you but the theme you're talking about)


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    "Nothing Works All The Time, But Everything Works Some Of The Time"


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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Bret Ferguson View Post

      Didn't this just nullify your thread, they're doing it wrong? Joking!
      But very much a point to be considered.

      I'm not telling anyone how to run their business, first of all. I'm telling them how to start threads, and how to respond to threads people start, about how to run a business.

      It's also my opinion, not a hard and fast rule where if you don't do this you're doing it wrong. I do a lot of opinion-stating. I don't believe in using spinners, for example - not because there's something morally wrong with it, but because they're just horribly bad at what they do. But rather than say "nobody should ever use a spinner," I tell people that I don't use spinners and this is why I don't and maybe they should think about that.

      I made that argument about proxies, in another thread. Most proxy usage is designed to conceal the true identity and location of the user. This is usually because you are doing something wrong. So you should probably think about whether you're doing something wrong.

      There are still perfectly vaad ways to use proxies, which is why I don't say "never ever ever use a proxy." I say that I don't use them. I say that you should give it some thought. But I'm not telling anyone how to run their business. I'm pretty laissez-faire when it comes to other people's businesses. Some of my friends are downright criminal about how they run their business; I don't approve, but it's not my business. Can't knock a man's hustle.

      Even here in this thread, there's not one assertion from me that one should or should not do a thing. Only that this is being done, I don't agree with it, and that we should probably question it.

      Which is an opinion. I'm not interested in making more people do like I do or think like I think. I'm interested in people doing and thinking, but there's an awful lot of room for them to differ from me, and I kind of like that. Sometimes what I think is stupid, and I just don't know it yet.
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      • Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Which is an opinion. I'm not interested in making more people do like I do or think like I think. I'm interested in people doing and thinking, but there's an awful lot of room for them to differ from me, and I kind of like that. Sometimes what I think is stupid, and I just don't know it yet.
        What do you think about cowardly people who just can't bear to be contradicted, so they retreat to the comfort of their own blog to sob out their hearts to their own followers while calling Warriors "scumbags"?

        Purely hypothetical question, of course.

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  • Profile picture of the author kalens99
    Warriorforumfan - The articles that were stolen were from directories that I posted for backlinks, guest blog posts or my clients sites. That denegrates the quality of my work and backlinks. It threatens my clients business, which threatens my future employment with them. Anyways it is besides the point whether I protect it or not. I can lock my house and successfully keep burglars from jacking my stuff. That doesn't make me respect the thieves that try to get in anymore. I have a very liberal view on right and wrong. However, there are a few pet peeves the irk me.

    I agree most of marketing is a gray area. Many of the things proposed on some forums is illegal or almost illegal, but I really don't care. One of my own clients was an affiliate marketer discreetly promoting online gambling to Americans, which was a barely legal tactic. Many people would condemn them but I couldn't care less. They paid me so I was fine doing something that was just within the bounds of the law, regardless of what people thought of it. But when someone threatens my business (regardless of whether or not they succeed) then I am going to get upset.

    As for your point that people have problems in their own lives, I would agree. In my case, the problem is that I get annoyed with people stealing my work. Saying I have no right to get upset that someone threatens my livelihood is as bad or worse than someone else speaking up about something that is none of their business. In my case, the point I am making is over something that directly affects me.
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  • Profile picture of the author KevL
    Agree. But it's not just when it comes to what is & isn't legal - it's people telling others how they should run their business, there's just been another thread going on about not calling yourself a web marketer if you're actually a web developer, and within this post there are people saying you shouldn't call yourself a web marketer anyway, do this, don't do this - etc.,

    I can see the argument about stealing content (but it's a very grey area!) - but overall I think the point most of us want to make is, to all these people - mind your own business. I'll call myself whatever I like, I'll call my business whatever I like, and if some people want to do things which others feel is illegal or unethical, then that's their decision, let them deal with it. I also don't flag people down on the road & tell them "Oy mister, you're going 33 it's a 30 mph zone......" or shout at people who're using their phones while driving, or smoking in a company vehicle, or parking where they maybe shouldn't be, or for diving in the pool when the sign says not to...

    One of the other trends that winds me up a bit though, in relation to the above, is when people are creating posts with controversial headlines, which just so happen to relate somehow to something in their sig. but I'm not going to tell anyone that this is wrong either, it's their business if they want to do this - I just find it a bit annoying myself when I see that over the top post titles appear to be being used to get as much exposure as possible to a sig which relates perfectly to the post. I'm not saying it's Illegal though.......
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Caliban, you should have been a lawyer instead of an internet marketer.
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  • Profile picture of the author iaffiliatehq
    Wow!! Maybe it's just me, but I come to the Forum to LEARN how to be more successful - So I search for all the DO's. I want advice on how to succeed; how to promote; how to decide; what to promote; how to profit; etc..... An occasional DON'T doesn't hurt - but most of the don't advice is common sense stuff.

    Personal success stories, proven tips & tricks for success, advice on how to avoid the rip-off's, personal choice for great web hosting/autoresponders/domain name purchase and how/why did you decide to promote that product/opportunity and all the other stuff are some of the DO's I search for.....

    To Your Success!
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  • Profile picture of the author mindykoch
    I think a good spirited debate about business ethics has a place in the public discourse. We need to share our thoughts - and there are always going to be people who hold tighter to their version of ethics (do what is I think is right) and others who are going to hold onto their own personal version of ethics (mind your own business).

    But we need the conversation to take place. Because truly - ethics matter. Whether the conversation is "do what I do", "don't do what I don't do", or "don't tell me what to do", these debates are useful - we need to know how our choices affect each other, our customers, and our bottom line.

    I don't see any reason to limit the discussion on business ethics. Those who are going to ignore the discussions will keep on ignoring them. Those who oppose them will keep on opposing them. But there are usually a group of people who are learning about online marketing and they should know upfront about the issues of image licensing, content swiping, creating false reviews, and of other issues we deal with in our business. Hopefully, the discourse educates others who want to do ethical business but aren't sure where the line is.

    As for those who post who have simplistic or flawed reasoning, they should certainly post their logic so that the forum can help their reasoning to improve. In my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Yes, I agree 100%. Instead of threads just posting experience and advice for others to try, there are a lot of "IF you're not doing this, you're doing it wrong!!!!!" type of posts. Kind of like those "The NUMBER 1 REASON why you're failing" threads.
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  • Profile picture of the author mobiduck
    There are busybodies in every area of life even in 'bleeding edge' pursuits. They may be a necessary evil to act as a counterweight lest any should presume that life is workable. Besides, there's quite enough unemployment as it is and I'm sure that the confusion wrought by barroom lawyers provides a regular source of income to actual lawyers.

    jus sayin
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    But what really bothers me is that this amounts to telling other people how to run their business - not in the productive manner of saying "I do this and here is why," but in the destructive manner of saying "stop doing this because it is wrong."
    What are you manic depressive or something?

    One minute you're intentionally trolling people w/ FIFY posts that end up blowing up entire threads and require the mods to wade in and start cleaning up after you.

    The next minute you presume to hold yourself out as some sort of authority on how to behave online.

    What gives?
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