Whose side is PayPal on?

24 replies
Hi

I have seen a number of PayPal complaints in the forum from both buyers and sellers of digital products.

Sellers say they get ripped off by buyers who file disputes with PayPal. They say PayPal gives refunds without hearing their side of the dispute because the sale was a digital product and PayPal doesn't protect the seller if their product is digital.

Buyers say they get stuck with a product when the seller won't follow through with a refund. They say PayPal won't listen to their dispute and give them a refund because their purchase was a digital product and PayPal won't honour refund requests on digital products.

Which is it?

Mahlon
#dispute #paypal #refund #side
  • Profile picture of the author Aremutola
    To me paypal sucks, they do this nonsense because there is no competition.
    A company needs to stand up rival this guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Expressarticles
    I'll just say this; I ONLY do business with PayPal because they hold a monopoly on the market for payment processing. If I had ANY other reputable choice (Google checkout doesn't count) I would get away from PayPal as quick as possible.

    Nothing is worse than needing to do finances and payroll and waking up to see PayPal screwed up my account because they don't understand my business...so annoying.
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  • Profile picture of the author markula
    Some people are adamant that PayPal sides with the sellers on disputes involving digital items, and some are adamant that they side with the buyer.

    All I know is that I am facing this situation as we speak. In my case, I'm the buyer that fell victim to false advertisement, fake screenshots, and lies from the seller.

    Obviously the dispute system is abused, and that is unfortunate... I do not want to find out how to cheat the system, I just want to find out the best way to present my case to PayPal so the seller won't run off with $1000 that he stole from me.

    I have an attorney available and this is someone very close to me, so his involvement would not cost me a dime... I was considering having my attorney send the seller a love letter and then using him to pursue the PayPal dispute. Would that perhaps give me the advantage in this dispute?

    The seller has absolutely nothing to defend himself because, as I said before, his screenshots are fake, so he cannot prove any of the earnings or traffic that was presented in his original ad, and that alone proves this to be a scam, but unfortunately I lost a similar situation in the past with PayPal even though the seller only used 2 sentences to defend themselves while I had proof of absolutely everything.

    Sometimes I wonder if PayPal just sits back and flips a coin to take a side in a website dispute.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
    Whose side is PayPal on?
    Their own. It is that simple.

    It costs them money to deal with disputes. That is why they are moving away from 'high risk' stuff. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in any threads here is the capital Paypal has to invest to act as an arbiter in disputes. Further, amongst the complaining of frozen accounts, whether legitimate or a longer standing account without negative feedback, I see comments about pp sitting on the cash to, 'make interest in a bank', but never comments concerning what a mess it is for pp's books and accounting to be switching money back and forth between outflows and inflows. It has very real impacts upon their accouting, profits, taxes, etc. Unless something has changed, I believe that when the seller issues a refund, pp also refunds the transaction fees. You understand how this can be a pain in their ass and their books if they have to do this, say 60 days, or almost one financial quarter (or even one full quarter or more), after counting those fees as profit?

    They are not a 'big meanie' toying with people for sh*ts and giggles. They are looking out for their best interest.

    Best of luck to you markula. That's a lot of cash to lose based upon false information. I hope it works out for you, but your situation is precisely why pp has labeled this stuff 'high risk' and is moving away from it.

    Unfortunately, caveat emptor always applies ...
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  • Profile picture of the author blillard
    Paypal is on their own side, their own hype what ever you want to call it. They are a business to make money and minute your end looks funny they pull the plug simple!
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by onSubie View Post

    Which is it?
    It's both. People are stupid.

    First of all, buyer/seller protection applies to who is allowed to FILE a dispute.

    If the product is digital, nobody can file one, so nobody wins the dispute. The dispute is simply thrown away like it never happened.

    Second, most vendors assume that because they are not covered by seller protection, they automatically lose any dispute.

    This is true only for disputes they file. Seller protection is the right to win a dispute that you file yourself. Lacking seller protection means you cannot expect to win any dispute you file against a buyer.

    However, PayPal presumes that you would not file a dispute unless you were covered.

    So they don't investigate whether you're covered. Instead, they allow anyone to file a dispute at any time, and if you are not covered the other party in the dispute is expected to say so.

    The average vendor doesn't do that. Instead, he goes "oh noes, I am not covered by seller protection" and lets PayPal resolve it in the customer's favour. He gets screwed because he lets himself get screwed.

    If the vendor would simply respond to the dispute by saying "hey, this is a digital product and not covered under buyer protection," these disputes would disappear and the customer would get screwed every single time.

    Meanwhile, the customer can still screw the vendor by always paying with his credit or debit card instead of his PayPal balance, then filing disputes with his bank instead. Since the vendor isn't the bank's customer, they don't care about him and will refund their own customer every single time.

    It all evens out in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    PayPal doesn't protect buyers of intangible goods. The seller always wins.

    If you sell on PayPal you need to understand this. You CAN NOT lose a chargeback (unless they put it on a credit card and dispute through there).
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Another "PayPal sucks" thread? Is it Sunday already? :rolleyes:

      Not much to add here, PP is obviously on their own side.

      The OP reminds me of when my brother and I, as little kids, would accuse our parents of favoring the other every time we didn't get our way. Years later, they explained that they figured if both of us were quacking about being slighted, they were doing a pretty good job of being fair...
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  • Profile picture of the author faysal969
    We have to work with PayPal until finding any good alternative. Actually there have no competitor and PayPal is the only Don.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    There's no way to tell what Paypal will do.

    I've filed a dispute that was a digital download and was unhappy with the product and won it by escalating to a claim.

    If a customer files a dispute, I usually refund, by occasionally the circumstances are such that I will not refund and I escalate it to a claim and usually win.

    When I escalate it to a claim, I upload "proof" of my claims.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dann Vicker
    Paypal is usually more on the buyer's side, even on digital purchases.
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    • Profile picture of the author loi77
      Originally Posted by Dann Vicker View Post

      Paypal is usually more on the buyer's side, even on digital purchases.
      It's true that PayPal is usually on the buyers' side.

      PayPal is owned by eBay, so looking after the buyers is their No.1 priority.
      Without buyers there will be no PayPal or eBay.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    As a seller, if it is a digital download that is the first thing to say in response to a dispute, and that it is an improper dispute.

    The second thing you say is that the buyer received the download, but if there is any issue here is the link where they can download it again. You include your link.

    My legal terms often include a dispute resolution mechanism. Such as, the buyer agrees all disputes will be decided by _______. That does not include PayPal. If the buyer raises a dispute with PayPal they are in breach of contract. Why does that matter? Because if the buyer is in breach that can relieve you of certain obligations when dealing with idiots, such as providing support.

    Some PayPal disputes are innocent enough and end up with an even better relationship with the buyer. Some are malicious and there is little sympathy for what happens to the buyer.

    In my experience, PayPal is only looking out for PayPal, and they want to make money.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author Don Warren
      Here's a story for you.

      I had bought some domains on Flippa. PayPaled the guy $700 and just like that he disappeared. I then saw the same domains in a new auction just 2 days after so I filed a dispute and escalated it to a claim.

      Even after I submitted all of the information and they could see that he was banned from Flippa (I'm pretty sure they saw other disputes in there also but they would tell me that), they won the case in his favor. I was PISSED! As I was on the phone with customer support, I saw that I could appeal the case. He basically told me "If you do that you'll still lose out on the money anyways." But he also told me is that I can file a dispute with my bank since I had to upload $400 from my account.

      So I didn't listen to him and I appealed anyways and called my bank, filed a dispute and all that good stuff. A few days later the bank awarded me at least $400 back, and then about a week later I won the appeal and get the other $300 back.

      I wish I had the name still of that idiot who told me not to appeal. Just goes to show you can take every action you can to try and get your money back and they will have to concede eventually.
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      • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
        PayPal activities are part of a bigger agenda - go read starting with my post #98 - http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...rketing-2.html

        As a 15 year Futures Trader, I have many contacts in Chicago/New York in the financial industry and there has been a "directed" financial grid consolidation that was started in 2008. PayPal will play ball with the new game going forward so they can stay a key player in the game. PayPal as the big guy on the block, in the eCommerce financial transaction segment, is now just another manipulated tool being directed from outside influences. They will follow what is directed to them with the thought that they will get to stay in the game, and in favor with the key players (globalist wealth entities - those who own the shares in the privately held central banks - US/EU).

        BTW, paypal was "directed" into their relationship they have with Chase Bank for their Business Debit cards - once that key player influence was finalized it was all over for PayPal to be of independent thought going forward (and what type of businesses they will run transactions for without hassles).

        I have moved away from paypal and I am trying out a few different solutions - one I will be testing out is Merchantinc.com since they seem to be a potential paypal alternative for the time being - we will see.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by AeroBuilders View Post

          PayPal activities are part of a bigger agenda - go read starting with my post #98
          You mean the one that goes, basically, "I am batsh!t insane"?
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
            Banned
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            It's both. People are stupid.
            [/THREAD]

            Oh...we kept going. OK :rolleyes:.

            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            You mean the one that goes, basically, "I am batsh!t insane"?
            I beg to differ. All the pieces fit, man. It just makes too much sense. I'm going to take all of my money and invest in bananas right now. It's the only safe option left, really.
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          • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            You mean the one that goes, basically, "I am batsh!t insane"?
            Only those who can't see trend changes are stuck with insane dead end beliefs. Also, those who do not have full knowledge and experience of the Financial Industry are merely speculating with their derived beliefs (from what they read from who knows where - weak!).

            ;-)

            BTW, what do you think of the $16.2 TRILLION the Fed has given to banks out their back door (that taxpayers are on the hook for)? Or is that one of my insane facts too? Time for you to do some real due diligence and find out what is really taking place in the world of finance/banking - it is not looking real good!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    Just understand what Buyer protection covers. It states intangible goods are not.

    When you use Paypal you are bound by their Terms of Use that you agreed to by opening an account. So understand those terms and you will not have any issues.
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  • Profile picture of the author A1pha
    I personally have not had a good experience with paypal. My account has been limited several times for hardly any reason. The only reason I use them is simply because everyone else does. Payment by paypal is accepted buy almost everywhere and everyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author blogideas
    Paypal put me out of business about five years ago by placing my account on hold. So, I know they aren't on my side.
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    • Profile picture of the author s1ngular1ty
      I've heard lots of horror stories about Paypal but I've never actually had any problems myself.

      Actually, my mother was the victim of fraud, with her paypal accoutn being hacked, and they were incredibly helpful.

      Between paypal and the bank she had all the money that had been stolen back in her account the same day. Quit re-assuring, I feel.
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    • Profile picture of the author adana
      Banned
      Originally Posted by blogideas View Post

      Paypal put me out of business about five years ago by placing my account on hold. So, I know they aren't on my side.


      What was the reason ?
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  • Profile picture of the author renukoot
    I had heard too many stories on PayPal, but in my case when I had a problem in transaction (being seller), I Contacted them through contact us system & they actually Call me up & help me in sorting out the issue.
    Now What I suppose to say - Which side I am On?
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