Paypal closed my account due to Multi-level marketing?

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#account #closed #due #marketing #multilevel #paypal
  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Since you have a transaction number you know the product being sold and the buyer. Follow-up with PayPal showing them exactly what was purchased and that it is not MLM.

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Read this from my blog. It might help.

    How to Get Your PayPal Account Reinstated | garriewilson.com

    Garrie
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Adam,

    There's a very fine line. If you heard the recent Paypal call with Anthony Aires (http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3) who also had his account shut down, you will find that Paypal look at some types of coaching/courses in a very different light.

    They consider them multi-level marketing because you are selling information to another person, who is then suppose to use that information to create a business that sells information to other people, and so on. So in their opinion, no one is actually receiving any tangible value from these transactions and thus why they think it is risky and don't want to be associated with it.

    Anyway, listen to the call above and you'll probably have a better understanding of why your coaching product has fallen under the MLM bracket.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      They consider them multi-level marketing because you are selling information to another person, who is then suppose to use that information to create a business that sells information to other people, and so on.
      It gets worse.

      Take a look at this here.

      WSO thread -> WSO order processor -> WSO vendor -> WSO affiliate -> customer

      That's five levels, just like most pyramid schemes.

      And we actively encourage people to move up the levels.

      You buy a lot of WSOs? Cut it out! Go promote affiliate products, like, well... WSOs.

      You promote affiliate products? Cut it out! Write your own product, which you can... well... sell as a WSO.

      You wrote a product? Stop that! Write some software or run a service, such as... hmm... maybe a payment processor for WSOs.

      There are seven major payment processors used on WSOs: RAP, DAP, DLGuard, JVZoo, MooshPay, DigiResults, and WSO Pro.

      Each and every one of these is Warrior-owned and Warrior-operated.

      Now, forget for a moment what you may know about these payment processors (specifically, that all of the operations are completely independent and there is no conspiracy or collusion going on here).

      Doesn't it LOOK like a pyramid scheme?

      This is why I made the personal decision to pull all my WSOs. I believe it is dangerous for WSOs to represent a major portion of your transaction volume, because no matter how innocent it may be, there is an appearance of impropriety.

      I think that's a new condition on the WSO forum, and I'm very concerned about whether we'll be able to fix it. Or, indeed, whether it can ever be fixed at all.

      It doesn't matter whether we really are doing anything PayPal forbids. It only matters whether we look like we are.

      I don't have any answers. I'm open to hearing other people's ideas.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author clickgold
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        It gets worse.

        Take a look at this here.

        WSO thread -> WSO order processor -> WSO vendor -> WSO affiliate -> customer

        That's five levels, just like most pyramid schemes.

        And we actively encourage people to move up the levels.

        You buy a lot of WSOs? Cut it out! Go promote affiliate products, like, well... WSOs.

        You promote affiliate products? Cut it out! Write your own product, which you can... well... sell as a WSO.

        You wrote a product? Stop that! Write some software or run a service, such as... hmm... maybe a payment processor for WSOs.

        There are seven major payment processors used on WSOs: RAP, DAP, DLGuard, JVZoo, MooshPay, DigiResults, and WSO Pro.

        Each and every one of these is Warrior-owned and Warrior-operated.

        Now, forget for a moment what you may know about these payment processors (specifically, that all of the operations are completely independent and there is no conspiracy or collusion going on here).

        Doesn't it LOOK like a pyramid scheme?

        This is why I made the personal decision to pull all my WSOs. I believe it is dangerous for WSOs to represent a major portion of your transaction volume, because no matter how innocent it may be, there is an appearance of impropriety.

        I think that's a new condition on the WSO forum, and I'm very concerned about whether we'll be able to fix it. Or, indeed, whether it can ever be fixed at all.

        It doesn't matter whether we really are doing anything PayPal forbids. It only matters whether we look like we are.

        I don't have any answers. I'm open to hearing other people's ideas.
        And we complain that Pay Pal is making our life hard, I believe there is so much lies and insincerity in the IM game. Of course there are those among us who truly create value, but I believe there is so much bull**** around.

        I don't like PP, but they are right on spot on this one.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by clickgold View Post

          And we complain that Pay Pal is making our life hard, I believe there is so much lies and insincerity in the IM game.
          The only catch here is that there are no lies or insincerity. All of the advice being given is good advice. All of the opinions being offered are honest opinions. And all of the services in the chain are honest services that deliver real value.

          It just happens to look an awful lot like a pyramid scheme. That doesn't make it one. There's a real economy out there, where each and every level of this tight little community has had to fight for its spot against several competitors, and that economy has gotten large enough that PayPal is getting suspicious.

          The more I look at it, the more I think the crucial flaw is the tight integration of WSO Pro to the WSO Forum. WSO Pro doesn't work at all unless and until you have a WSO thread associated with your product. The other options don't require that. But I assume Mike is working on this as we speak, because he's sure as hell doing something back there.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author CTonline09
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Adam,

      There's a very fine line. If you heard the recent Paypal call with Anthony Aires (http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3) who also had his account shut down, you will find that Paypal look at some types of coaching/courses in a very different light.

      They consider them multi-level marketing because you are selling information to another person, who is then suppose to use that information to create a business that sells information to other people, and so on. So in their opinion, no one is actually receiving any tangible value from these transactions and thus why they think it is risky and don't want to be associated with it.

      Anyway, listen to the call above and you'll probably have a better understanding of why your coaching product has fallen under the MLM bracket.
      Yea, thats an erie call to listen to but like the paypal guy says its a priveledge not a right and the decision is theirs and theirs alone.

      Every product sold on the warrior forum WSO section could be classed as MLM.

      There are some coaching courses selling for $500 yet there paypal accounts stay intact so Im assuming its only a mater of time bfore more may be limited and eventually shut down.

      If your selling wordpress plugins or similar products without wild claims then your alot safer in paypal's eyes as the truth is they don't like the fact that there allowing info to be sold where only the very small minority will actually go on to see results from what there taught.

      Internet Marketing has never been a smooth sailing operation and paypal just make it harder each day, but its their business not ours.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by MarketingMonkey View Post

        Every product sold on the warrior forum WSO section could be classed as MLM.
        I wouldn't say that.

        I'd say that if your WSO recommends affiliate marketing and has an affiliate program, that's where the loop gets formed.

        The conversations I've heard with PayPal tend to bear this out.

        I think the way they're viewing it is that we're soft-selling the pyramid: the Warrior Forum built an attractive sales platform, the order processors built attractive affiliate programs, the vendors are building attractive affiliate products, and the affiliates are going out and recruiting... new affiliates.

        The line between the affiliate and the customer disappears when the purpose of the product is to turn customers into affiliates.

        That's where MLM systems turn the corner and become illegal pyramid schemes: when you're not actually selling the product anymore, but the business opportunity of selling the product. That's usually a good indicator that the product itself has no real value, and only the selling of the product has value.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I wouldn't say that.

          I'd say that if your WSO recommends affiliate marketing and has an affiliate program, that's where the loop gets formed.

          The conversations I've heard with PayPal tend to bear this out. .....
          OK, up to that point it made sort-of-sense..but if that's the case, then being in WarriorPlus and accepting affiliates through their affiliate system is, to use your expression, "completing the loop"??

          Then, ALL WSO products, for sale on WF, that accept affiliates through WarriorPlus would be targeted by PP...and subject to closure? (or are you saying only those that teach aff marketing would be at risk?)

          In other words, the WarriorPlus affiliate program, at a minimum, contributes to and may cause PP acct freezes or closures?
          _____
          Bruce
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

            No. You didn't.
            Yes. I did.

            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            WSO thread -> WSO order processor -> WSO vendor -> WSO affiliate -> customer
            I was inconsistent later in the post and I apologise for that. **** happens.

            Originally Posted by Bruce NewMedia View Post

            (or are you saying only those that teach aff marketing would be at risk?)
            I am not saying anything is at risk.

            I am saying that PayPal appears to be interpreting products which teach affiliate marketing and have an affiliate program to be MLM products, and PayPal's acceptable use policy forbids MLM products.

            The issue from their perspective is the way some people are selling a report on how to make money that says "sell this report on how to make money."

            Even if your report also gives other options, it is this connection that smells a lot like an illegal pyramid scheme, and which PayPal are seeing as MLM. It's circular. And the two ways this works are affiliate programs and PLR, both of which PayPal have been specifically asking about in recent conversations.
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              Yes. I did.



              I was inconsistent later in the post and I apologise for that. **** happens.



              I am not saying anything is at risk.

              I am saying that PayPal appears to be interpreting products which teach affiliate marketing and have an affiliate program to be MLM products, and PayPal's acceptable use policy forbids MLM products.

              The issue from their perspective is the way some people are selling a report on how to make money that says "sell this report on how to make money."

              Even if your report also gives other options, it is this connection that smells a lot like an illegal pyramid scheme, and which PayPal are seeing as MLM. It's circular. And the two ways this works are affiliate programs and PLR, both of which PayPal have been specifically asking about in recent conversations.
              So if I sell PLR to consumers (personal use), I'm safe; if I sell PLR to resellers (make bank with PLR!), I'm screwed eventually?

              I know 2CO and FastSpring don't allow PLR period, so I'm guessing PLR in general is possibly seen as risky by PayPal? Even if it is selling diet ebooks to dieters - the fact that I as a seller purchased it from a vendor for resale means I'm part of the mlm chain in PayPal's eyes?

              Me thinks ClickBank is cheering all of this. They could end up being the only good option for selling IM products, but I'm wondering why PayPal just doesn't kill its association with WP, JVZoo and the like rather than waste time going after the gazillions of individual marketers and affiliates.

              I mean, these companies are not just a venue for selling and processing the order, they promote the s*** out of these products!
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        • Profile picture of the author Mary Greene
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          I wouldn't say that.

          I'd say that if your WSO recommends affiliate marketing and has an affiliate program, that's where the loop gets formed.

          The conversations I've heard with PayPal tend to bear this out.

          I think the way they're viewing it is that we're soft-selling the pyramid: the Warrior Forum built an attractive sales platform, the order processors built attractive affiliate programs, the vendors are building attractive affiliate products, and the affiliates are going out and recruiting... new affiliates.

          The line between the affiliate and the customer disappears when the purpose of the product is to turn customers into affiliates.

          That's where MLM systems turn the corner and become illegal pyramid schemes: when you're not actually selling the product anymore, but the business opportunity of selling the product. That's usually a good indicator that the product itself has no real value, and only the selling of the product has value.
          I wish everybody would read Caliban's post quoted above. At best, pyramid/multi-level business models profit people at the top for a short time while sucking up everyone else's time, money, and hopes for success. Forget Paypal for a moment: Why would anyone want the "freedom" to pursue a moneymaking model doomed to multi-level failure?

          The lessons behind these Paypal warnings and reversals can help Warriors become more, not less profitable. Longer-term business success has always required fulfilling sales letter promises, delivering products that fulfill customer wants/needs, diversifying sales platforms and order or payment services when necessary, and working with partners who add value. I buy and review WSOs from sellers and affiliates who succeed by following that formula exactly. Let's follow their lead to reclaim the WSO glory days.

          Cheers,
          Mary Greene
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          Cheers,
          Mary Greene

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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
        Originally Posted by MarketingMonkey View Post

        Every product sold on the warrior forum WSO section could be classed as MLM.
        Not someone offering graphic design services..... Or Graphics as packages.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    There are seven major payment backends and deliver systems used on WSOs: RAP, DAP, DLGuard, JVZoo, MooshPay, DigiResults, and WSO Pro.
    Fixed that for you.

    None of them are processors.

    PayPal referal logs doesn't show the forum either. It shows the backend as the referral. They dont know where the sales page is unless they dig for it, ask, or the backend passes it.

    Garrie
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      Fixed that for you.

      None of them are processors.

      PayPal referal logs doesn't show the forum either. It shows the backend as the referral. They dont know where the sales page is unless they dig for it, ask, or the backend passes it.

      Garrie
      Garrie,

      If using a service like WarriorPlus then the referral url they would see is WarriorPlus.com. You don't think they know what WarriorPlus.com is by now, and probably even JVZoo.com as well. You don't think they can put two and two together. Besides, on your Warrior Plus thank you page, which I am sure Paypal can probably access quite easily, is a link back to your original WSO thread.

      They know exactly what you are doing, don't kid yourself.
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Garrie,

        If using a service like WarriorPlus then the referral url they would see is WarriorPlus.com. You don't think they know what WarriorPlus.com is by now, and probably even JVZoo.com as well. You don't think they can put two and two together. Besides, on your Warrior Plus thank you page, which I am sure Paypal can probably access quite easily, is a link back to your original WSO thread.

        They know exactly what you are doing, don't kid yourself.
        WP+ is a tad different as its for this forum only but JVZoo and all the others isnt. So using them doesnt fit CDs paranoia post.

        They dont know exactly what "I" am doing. If they did, they wouldnt ban accounts not violating policy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Brands
          I think there is any technical problem, email to paypal with your sale details or about products you are promoting.
          Your problem will be solve in Short time.
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          • Profile picture of the author Centurian
            Originally Posted by Richard Brands View Post

            I think there is any technical problem, email to paypal with your sale details or about products you are promoting.
            Your problem will be solve in Short time.
            Yes, there is a technical problem.

            PayPal has made a business decision to start eliminating affiliate marketers, some IM niches and biz-ops, SEO and a few other selected biz models.

            If you haven't been seized yet, thank God. Hopefully, they won't notice you.

            Meanwhile develop a back-up plan. Eliminate account seizures with your own merchant account that deposits your money directly in your own bank account.
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            • Profile picture of the author rts2271
              Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

              Yes, there is a technical problem.

              PayPal has made a business decision to start eliminating affiliate marketers, some IM niches and biz-ops, SEO and a few other selected biz models.

              If you haven't been seized yet, thank God. Hopefully, they won't notice you.

              Meanwhile develop a back-up plan. Eliminate account seizures with your own merchant account that deposits your money directly in your own bank account.
              So has Google, Yahoo, Cybersource, The FTC, Consumer advocacy groups etc etc. It's become so closely linked to bizop that it is suffering from collateral damage. Self help is in the fed sites now as well from the buzz I'm hearing.
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              • Profile picture of the author Centurian
                Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

                So has Google, Yahoo, Cybersource, The FTC, Consumer advocacy groups etc etc. It's become so closely linked to bizop that it is suffering from collateral damage. Self help is in the fed sites now as well from the buzz I'm hearing.
                Yes, that is correct. All this has been in the sights of the current administration since the last election. The FTC started targeting successful bizop and real estate investment trainers in 2009. Now they are targeting these companies to control the end users to produce their desired outcome.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Garrie,

        If using a service like WarriorPlus then the referral url they would see is WarriorPlus.com. You don't think they know what WarriorPlus.com is by now, and probably even JVZoo.com as well. You don't think they can put two and two together. Besides, on your Warrior Plus thank you page, which I am sure Paypal can probably access quite easily, is a link back to your original WSO thread.

        They know exactly what you are doing, don't kid yourself.
        This is one of the reasons I'm sticking with DLGuard. It's just software that handles delivery and payment and not associated with the Warrior Forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          This is one of the reasons I'm sticking with DLGuard. It's just software that handles delivery and payment and not associated with the Warrior Forum.
          If its association that concerns you, you shouldn't even run a WSO.
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          • Profile picture of the author larry65
            That is informative information. I haven't used PP for selling any material yet but have used it for working off of ebay and had no problems. I was going to begin using my PP account but that may be be an option if they are clamping down on what they consider MLM sells and they get to define them. It seems to me though, that I've been hearing complaints with other things with PP and this just adds to them. It's too bad because PP is the main one I knew of at this point and since I already had an account open it would have made it easier. Thanks for the information everyone, that's why I love WF.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      None of them are processors.
      None of them are payment processors. PayPal is the payment processor. That's why I called them order processors. They certainly do process the order.

      But that's an important point. A lot of people do get confused on that matter.

      PayPal referal logs doesn't show the forum either. It shows the backend as the referral.
      PayPal does, however, track down sales pages to investigate the sales methods in use. And the sales page for every WSO Pro offer is a thread on this forum.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
        Just another small post to add to the pot. PayPal likes to see some legal information as well as contact information and refund information on a sales page.

        In my view a WSO is a sales page - correct me if I'm wrong.

        I have rarely seen contact information on a WSO although refund (or not) information is often included. Never have I seen reference to TOS or Privacy Policy included in a WSO.

        You would include the legal jargon on your website would't you?

        Perhaps Paypal add the lack of legal information into their equation when they investigate your 'business history'.

        Just my thoughts,

        Jeff.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by James B View Post

          Call and contact a paypal rep, and present the confirmation # with the product details. See what your options are, and ask what is needed to resolve the situation.

          If anything they should be on your side, just how you can un limit this situation.
          Yes, this should do the trick for you... and once you have resolved that issue you can go and say hello to the flying pigs outside your window.

          Originally Posted by Jeff Henshaw View Post

          Just another small post to add to the pot. PayPal likes to see some legal information as well as contact information and refund information on a sales page.

          In my view a WSO is a sales page - correct me if I'm wrong.

          I have rarely seen contact information on a WSO although refund (or not) information is often included. Never have I seen reference to TOS or Privacy Policy included in a WSO.

          You would include the legal jargon on your website would't you?

          Perhaps Paypal add the lack of legal information into their equation when they investigate your 'business history'.
          Jeff,

          There's actually quite a few WSO sales threads with links to legal documents at the bottom of them nowadays. My most recent one has links to all the legal info I would usually include on my standard website.

          Yes they are important but I don't think it's a big deciding factor. Even scammers can have simple legal documents on their site. If Paypal don't like what you are doing a little Privacy Policy or Terms of Use statement won't change anything.
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        None of them are payment processors. PayPal is the payment processor. That's why I called them order processors. They certainly do process the order.
        No. You didn't.

        There are seven major payment processors used on WSOs: RAP, DAP, DLGuard, JVZoo, MooshPay, DigiResults, and WSO Pro.
        Thats what you said.

        PayPal does, however, track down sales pages to investigate the sales methods in use. And the sales page for every WSO Pro offer is a thread on this forum.
        They can only trackdown with the data given to them but they aren't going to spend time looking for violations at random. Using any of the 7 backends alone isnt going to flag anything.
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        • Profile picture of the author gvsridhar171
          My $700 is stuck with paypal and they have shut down my account. They just dictate terms and we have no say. I have seen plenty of people getting affected by paypal's beauracratic approach. No MLM even then if they feel it is MLM, it has to be MLM whether you accept it or not.

          So long as the money received is in small numbers (say one digit number) you will probably get away. The amount one sizeable amount is received in your account,you will be monitored thereafter and very soon your account will be limited.

          I read somewhere in WF that the best way to come out of it is to sell your
          products through clickbank or paydotcom as they will not limit their accounts and your money will be safe when you receive money from either of these companies.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          They can only trackdown with the data given to them but they aren't going to spend time looking for violations at random. Using any of the 7 backends alone isnt going to flag anything.
          If one day they decide to look into and ban any accounts that are selling products on the Warrior Forum because they deem the business model too risky for them, which from recent conversations I have heard sounds like "when" not "if", then anyone using a payment processor such as Warrior Plus will be included in that. Warrior Plus is a WSO only payment processor so it only stands to reason that anyone selling through that payment processor is selling on the Warrior Forum and would be banned if they decide to do it.

          You don't have to specifically violate their terms. All that has to happen is they deem one particular business model too risky (ie: WSO's) and they shut down anyone and everyone who is involved in that business model.

          The fact every Paypal item number processed through Warrior Plus also starts with the letters 'WSO' makes it even easier for them to track it all.

          I think we are all kidding ourselves if we think the inevitable isn't coming. One day soon they will not allow any WSO's to be sold through Paypal - I have no doubt in my mind about that. This is always how it starts. Look back at Google Adsense when they started banning the odd affiliate account. It didn't take long before they eventually went ahead and banned a whole ton of affiliates that were using the same methods and/or promoting the same types of products. That's what will happen in this case and the bigger the WSO forum gets, the quicker this will happen.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    The same thing happened me me once... I was only selling software my company had developed which was for personal use for putting audio on a website. Nothing even remotely close to MLM.

    I simply emailed them politely telling them that a mistake has been made, I only sell audio software, and asked them to have someone review my account.

    In less than 24 hours I received an email apologizing, saying they made a mistake, and they reinstated my account.
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  • Profile picture of the author TopBackBuilder
    Yeah I suppose that technically it is multi-level marketing because your selling a service that sells other services, I personally don't see the problem with this...
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    • Profile picture of the author fenixpro
      Yeah, I have been looking into this a bit as it will definitely effect a lot of marketers this year and beyond. The way I understand it in general is that PP doesn't so much like 'services' and products that are electronic AND are tied to guarantees and refunds.

      That is, if you have a wso or you are selling coaching or whatever the hell and you put the "60 day money back guarantee", etc. down, they aren't gonna dig you or what you are doing. They are successful enough and don't need IM people acting against what PP wants by making these guarantees of refunds etc.

      It may be stupid or petty on PPs account, but that doesn't matter. Big or small marketer, you need to really understand and work with their TOS. They are a business, you are a business. If they don't jive with what you want to do, find a business that does...

      MLM, IM, whatever, doesn't matter. If they don't like it and it doesn't jive with what they want to do, why risk it? It's like using adsense and bringing iffy traffic to your site. G may ban your ass and then you are SOL. Even without iffy traffic, G may ban your ass.

      Diversify and act like a dynamic and flexible business. This is the way forward....
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  • Profile picture of the author James B
    Call and contact a paypal rep, and present the confirmation # with the product details. See what your options are, and ask what is needed to resolve the situation.

    If anything they should be on your side, just how you can un limit this situation.

    Paypal has a lot of problems for sellers, so I would start using ecsrow.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      If PayPal regard such affiliate systems as promoters of MLM why would they approve the likes of JVZoo which involves manual intervention by PayPal staff to set up?
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        If PayPal regard such affiliate systems as promoters of MLM why would they approve the likes of JVZoo which involves manual intervention by PayPal staff to set up?
        There is nothing wrong with an affiliate program when you are selling goods such as software programs, plugins, and the like. Paypal are not going to stop every affiliate program. It is when the products in question are courses that teach people to go out and sell products as affiliates - so it becomes a never-ending cycle where no one is really receiving any tangible value for their money.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          There is nothing wrong with an affiliate program when you are selling goods such as software programs, plugins, and the like. Paypal are not going to stop every affiliate program. It is when the products in question are courses that teach people to go out and sell products as affiliates - so it becomes a never-ending cycle where no one is really receiving any tangible value for their money.
          However, I seems that only a small fraction of products teach that.

          A majority are plugins, traffic generation, Amazon/physical affiliate products, etc.

          I think that one thing we can all agree on is that paypal has a tendency to shoot first, ask questions later.

          So the best course of action for the OP is to contact PayPal, explain what his business is and get a reversal.

          Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    I had this happen to me a few years ago. I had my account closed because I was selling an Ebook using the $7 Script by Jon somebody (can't think of his last name right now) Leger maybe.

    Anyway, they told me I was involved in an MLM scheme and it didn't matter how much I tried to explain the situation they wouldn't listen. They just told me that the matter was closed and they would not respond to me any longer.

    Paypal don't care, they just do whatever they want!
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but...

    >>>Click Here To Let Me Coach You To A 5 Figure Affiliate Business For Less Than $10<<<

    That is walking awful close to the line with the new FTC guidelines regarding biz opps.

    Your sales page reinforces what is said in your signature file:


    Signature
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    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author john_kennedy
      Here's the text from the AUP, I added the emphasis to 3b

      Prohibited Activities

      You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

      1. violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.

      2. relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.

      3. relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other "get rich quick" schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f), are associated with the sale of traveler's checks or money orders, (h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses, or (i) involve certain credit repair, debt settlement services, credit transactions or insurance activities.

      4. involve the sales of products or services identified by government agencies to have a high likelihood of being fraudulent.

      5. violate applicable laws or industry regulations regarding the sale of (a) tobacco products, or (b) prescription drugs and devices.

      6. involve gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize, including, but not limited to casino games, sports betting, horse or greyhound racing, lottery tickets, other ventures that facilitate gambling, games of skill (whether or not it is legally defined as a lottery) and sweepstakes unless the operator has obtained prior approval from PayPal and the operator and customers are located exclusively in jurisdictions where such activities are permitted by law.
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  • Profile picture of the author specialized
    This will only help US-based marketers, unfortunately, but... everyone should check out this company ProPay. I found info about them on screw-paypal.com. Here is the info that is found there:

    (EDIT) On second thought, I don't want to get in trouble for reposting text here from another site. Go to screw-paypal.com slash alternatives slash alternatives_ebay_recommended dot html and read it.

    You will notice a part where it says - "No limitations, no frozen accounts." I am going to be contacting them to ask what their position is on internet marketing, because this all does sound ominous without a doubt. I'll report back what I learn.
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  • Profile picture of the author specialized
    Well, my enthusiasm about ProPay may have been premature. I just looked at their "high-risk acceptable use policy" and it denotes the following:

    Restricted Activities (defined as categories that may be allowed with additional underwriting and potential reserve requirements)

    • Antiques and vintage items
    • Art
    • Automobile parts, used & new
    • Catering
    • Collectibles
    o Coins
    o Faces, Names and Signatures
    o Stamps
    • Cross-border transactions
    • Electronics
    • Furniture
    IT (Information Technology) Services
    • Jewelry
    • Moving companies
    • Private Investigators
    • Taxi / Limo services
    • Tour Operators
    Web hosting & web design

    ---

    and further says that (among a whole lot of other things) the following are prohibited:

    - Business and Investment Opportunities
    - Consulting firms or firms selling “get rich quick” schemes

    They are starting to look just as uptight as PayPal to me now. The search for an alternative continues.

    One outfit called merchantinc.com looks promising (though again, only helps US merchants). The blurb about them that I just read shines a whole lot of light on this mystery of how PayPal gets away with this stuff: evidently, because PayPal is not considered a bank under US law, they do not have to adhere to federal banking guidelines! This explains a lot about their arbitrary pimp-slapping ways and why they don't feel any obligation to behave reasonably with accountholders, doesn't it? I have always assumed that being a huge financial processor/institution, they fell under federal bank regulations of some kind, but apparently not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
      Originally Posted by specialized View Post

      Well, my enthusiasm about ProPay may have been premature. I just looked at their "high-risk acceptable use policy" and it denotes the following:

      Restricted Activities (defined as categories that may be allowed with additional underwriting and potential reserve requirements)

      • Antiques and vintage items
      • Art
      • Automobile parts, used & new
      • Catering
      • Collectibles
      o Coins
      o Faces, Names and Signatures
      o Stamps
      • Cross-border transactions
      • Electronics
      • Furniture
      IT (Information Technology) Services
      • Jewelry
      • Moving companies
      • Private Investigators
      • Taxi / Limo services
      • Tour Operators
      Web hosting & web design

      ---

      and further says that (among a whole lot of other things) the following are prohibited:

      - Business and Investment Opportunities
      - Consulting firms or firms selling "get rich quick" schemes

      They are starting to look just as uptight as PayPal to me now. The search for an alternative continues.
      Alertpay is pretty good, I've used them pretty much since they opened. (Not a lot, but some people prefer to pay through them).

      Not sure about other services, I've heard of safepay but I have no clue, haven't used them.
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  • Profile picture of the author specialized
    Thanks Amber. I just looked over AlertPay's site, they certainly look a lot less ogre-like than PP, and definitely worthy of further study, but I wasn't able to determine whether they are a true merchant account provider or an omnipotent outlaw non-bank like PP.

    Check out merchantinc.com*, they make an excellent point right on their front page regarding why we should be using a true merchant account instead of PayPal... namely, that with a merchant account, the funds are transferred directly into your account and control, while at PayPal, they go into PayPal's account and control.

    Also very significant is the fact that with PayPal your account is under their control without any regulatory oversight, so they can suspend or close it or whatever with no recourse. It sounds like with a merchant account, the field is more level and there is more leverage on the accountholder's side due to banking regs.

    I sense a major seismic event coming with PayPal. I'm having trouble imagining how it will go because of how deeply entrenched PayPal is in the fabric of the internet. It's sort of a psychological monopoly, really. Everyone's WAY too used to using them.

    If they start cracking down on anything where the subject matter is even remotely geared toward helping people who want to do business on the internet, it will cause massive problems, right?

    *In case anyone gets funny ideas, I am in no way associated with them - I just learned about them 10 minutes ago.

    ANOTHER EDIT: I just looked at specific policy documents for AlertPay, and it is very encouraging at first look. They are saying that they prohibit processing on only gambling, narcotics/drugs, replicas, tobacco, and weapons. A MUCH more reasonable platform. Not a word about business opportunities or information or any kind of information (as it should be in free societies... PayPal's policy against sweeping categories of information products resembles censorship, even though it is based in risk-management).
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      The closest option to PayPal I have seen is Plimus. That service has affiliate payments and now I see third party royalties so payments can apparently be split 3-ways.

      Plimus works with Mastercard, Visa, etc., and also PayPal.

      On the other hand, Plimus has been receiving the same type of pressure as PayPal about servicing certain types of businesses.

      Forex is out and there is a separate thread on that topic.

      Plimus also does not allow
      • Pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, or certain multi-level marketing programs.
      • Work from home business opportunities or other 'get rich quick' schemes.

      But that is fairly standard language and different from what PayPal is apparently stating.

      On the other hand, I agree with Bill that the OP's ad copy was way over the top and likely a factor.

      .
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by specialized View Post

      Thanks Amber. I just looked over AlertPay's site, they certainly look a lot less ogre-like than PP, and definitely worthy of further study, but I wasn't able to determine whether they are a true merchant account provider or an omnipotent outlaw non-bank like PP.
      I'd check with kindsvater about Alert Pay ... there was a thread where he said that they're pretty much shut down in the US.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Everyone back to Clickbank ey? They accept Paypal payments on your behalf and they have the affiliate program already built in.

    Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em!

    Although I wonder how long it will be before Paypal drops Clickbank as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    I was told almost the exact same thing after talking to about 3 supervisors. No digital downloads, no coaching, no mlm, no webinars, no mmo, etc...
    1. The supervisors are floor supervisors and not from the AUP department
    2. Micropayments where made for digital downloads.
    3. I'll go by the AUP not what a person making $10/hour says. (They tend to make stuff up to give an answer.)
    4. The sky isnt falling.
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    • Profile picture of the author specialized
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      1. The supervisors are floor supervisors and not from the AUP department
      2. Micropayments where made for digital downloads.
      3. I'll go by the AUP not what a person making $10/hour says. (They tend to make stuff up to give an answer.)
      4. The sky isnt falling.
      But if in their system a $10/hour guy has the power to shut your entire business down and tell you it could be a week or two before his supervisor can get back to you, that alone is cause for concern.

      Upon reflection, I think part of this whole PayPal Problem might be that when they started, if I recall, they really didn't intend or pitch it as a big merchant payment thing... it was more like for when you wanted to send Uncle Ned in another state some money, like Western Union except instead of having to go to a Western Union outlet it goes straight to your bank account. Maybe also for really small informal business transactions between people, but as happens on the net, it quickly blew up to something much, much bigger.

      The sky may not be falling, but I think I saw it slip down a couple of notches.

      I just feel like if they are going to sow fear and blatantly say they're out to phase out the type of information we sell, then we would be smart to replace them with a friendlier option who deserves the business.
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    *waits for all the people(as tiny number as they are) who haven't been screwed by paypal(yet) to come in and blame the OP and brag about how they haven't had any issues with paypal so it must be everyone else's fault.
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  • Profile picture of the author almiller
    So much for putting all my eggs in the same basket. Wow, this thread really opened my eyes.

    Alberto
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    What is the world coming to. I might just have to switch over to Clickbank being my main merchant account/processor if my PP account goes to the crappers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
    After Anthony Aires, and then closer to home, Peter Garety...I've opened up a merchant account with Authorize.net, and am setting up my own affiliate program using WordPress solutions. The buyers' payments will go directly into MY account and the affiliates payments will come directly out of MY account. Eliminating the third party is the only way I can see to secure my account and funds for both my business and those of my affiliates.

    IMO, the same people that pissed in Paypal's pool are going to piss in Clickbank's pool. It's no guarantee.
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  • Profile picture of the author avhow
    Hi,

    Just like webhosts I always believe its good to have backup payment processors. People have always had problems with paypal and I dont ever see that changing. I use Fastspring as a processor and I also have an account open with Avangate. Fastspring are excellent and they do all the work (for free) to set up the account and match it to the style of your website.

    Avangate also have an affiliate system built in if you need it. I used to use Plimus but I quite regularly would get downtime for my cart so I gave up on them.

    If people want to use Paypal then both Fastspring and Avangate offer that option to your customers but since switching to them I think I get 1 out of a hundred sales using paypal rather than a credit card.

    And finally with Fastspring I get a dedicated account rep - someone who knows my business and is happy to help me personally with any problems. Try getting that with Paypal.

    Cheers

    Adam
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    Dont know what happened. Used to have hundreds of posts on here. Left for a while - came back and everything gone... no-one answers my emails.... So guess I'll just start from scratch... :0(

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    • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
      Originally Posted by specialized View Post

      Thanks Amber. I just looked over AlertPay's site, they certainly look a lot less ogre-like than PP, and definitely worthy of further study, but I wasn't able to determine whether they are a true merchant account provider or an omnipotent outlaw non-bank like PP.

      Check out merchantinc.com*, they make an excellent point right on their front page regarding why we should be using a true merchant account instead of PayPal... namely, that with a merchant account, the funds are transferred directly into your account and control, while at PayPal, they go into PayPal's account and control.

      Also very significant is the fact that with PayPal your account is under their control without any regulatory oversight, so they can suspend or close it or whatever with no recourse. It sounds like with a merchant account, the field is more level and there is more leverage on the accountholder's side due to banking regs.

      I sense a major seismic event coming with PayPal. I'm having trouble imagining how it will go because of how deeply entrenched PayPal is in the fabric of the internet. It's sort of a psychological monopoly, really. Everyone's WAY too used to using them.

      If they start cracking down on anything where the subject matter is even remotely geared toward helping people who want to do business on the internet, it will cause massive problems, right?

      *In case anyone gets funny ideas, I am in no way associated with them - I just learned about them 10 minutes ago.

      ANOTHER EDIT: I just looked at specific policy documents for AlertPay, and it is very encouraging at first look. They are saying that they prohibit processing on only gambling, narcotics/drugs, replicas, tobacco, and weapons. A MUCH more reasonable platform. Not a word about business opportunities or information or any kind of information (as it should be in free societies... PayPal's policy against sweeping categories of information products resembles censorship, even though it is based in risk-management).

      On the Merchant account part - don't be too sure. They have the right to do exactly the same thing Paypal does, and I know for a fact they WILL freeze your account or shut you down.

      It happened to my former partner (who is now still my programmer, we simply went our separate ways a while ago).

      Anyway, he was processing huge amounts, like $10K a day with no problems for like 4 or 5 months. Then things slowed for a while, and when he suddenly had a bigger day again of 10K they froze him and held it for 6 months. (All because of an idiot scammer who caused a couple of refunds).

      He got a second merchant account... had no issues till he suddenly charged a programming gig invoice of something like $1500. They questioned him and then said they weren't approving him of payments that high so he had to either do small increments or leave.

      Weird!

      Anyway, he's got a solid account now and has had them for a few years, but he does no where near the $ that he did when we were partners, so I guess its a non-issue.

      Myself, I stick with 2checkout, alertpay and paypal (at this time).

      In Canada its like jumping over a LOT of hoops to get a merchant account (from my research, I've looked a few times), and previously at least, they did NOT like online sales stuff so made the hoops even more. Maybe okay for hosting and programming, but I do neither.

      As for the person that mentioned Alertpay being stopped in the US, are you sure?? I did read the thread, but from my understanding, we had to do some approvals a few months ago to continue allowing credit cards or something.

      You had to go through a further verification process, which I did, and I haven't had any problems or notices that I can't process credit cards, as long as my site is approved (which it is).

      I think the problem came in with those people who WERE running scams like those cash gifting things that were obviously pyramid style schemes. But from my understanding, Alertpay allows MLM as long as they're legit.

      I don't run those though, so I don't know.

      Maybe that's what triggered these visa/mc issues since? (Alertpay went through something similar a year or two back which is I think why they did start some restrictions and verifications, but don't quote me on that... my brain isn't the best for that because I don't use Alertpay a whole lot. It's just a backup alternative for a few of my customers who prefer it because they can't use a CC with 2checkout.)

      Amber
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by avhow View Post

      If people want to use Paypal then both Fastspring and Avangate offer that option to your customers but since switching to them I think I get 1 out of a hundred sales using paypal rather than a credit card.
      Neither Avangate nor Fastspring allow IM products (of any type). I've spoken to them many times - they don't allow IM/link buildign services, subscriptions, coaching, MLM, anything to do with making money (in any way), guides on how to build websites,etc.

      Avangate are not as strict as Fastspring, but still... Definitely not an option for the majority of people on this forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Gray
    wow - time to jump ship i think, Fastspring look good
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    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      Authorize.net is just the gateway. You still need a master merchant account.

      There are a number of solutions, but the best strategy is to get your business underwritten upfront with a merchant bankcard account.

      There are no monthly fee and low rate options that beat most of the online payment solutions available.

      One-size-fits-all is not always the best solution. That's why they double your costs.
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      • Profile picture of the author AnitaCross
        Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

        Authorize.net is just the gateway. You still need a master merchant account.

        There are a number of solutions, but the best strategy is to get your business underwritten upfront with a merchant bankcard account.

        There are no monthly fee and low rate options that beat most of the online payment solutions available.

        One-size-fits-all is not always the best solution. That's why they double your costs.
        Actually, through Authorize.net, you can get either a payment gateway, or a payment gateway with a merchant account.

        I've had my merchant account since 2000, first through my bank, and now through Costco. Having compared what I'm now paying with the prices for Authorize.net, I would recommend you first try to get your merchant account locally. I know you can go through Costco. You can probably also go through other membership discount stores, such as Sam's Club.

        It's worth looking into as it should cost you less in monthly fees than a merchant account through Authorize.net. And it may be less than going through your local bank or credit union.

        You will need a business bank account for receiving the funds, so there is an additional cost there, if you don't already have one. Check your local credit union first, if you need to open a business account. Their rates are usually much better than a banks.

        Hope this helps.
        -Anita
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        • Profile picture of the author HypeText
          Originally Posted by AnitaCross View Post

          Actually, through Authorize.net, you can get either a payment gateway, or a payment gateway with a merchant account.

          I've had my merchant account since 2000, first through my bank, and now through Costco. Having compared what I'm now paying with the prices for Authorize.net, I would recommend you first try to get your merchant account locally. I know you can go through Costco. You can probably also go through other membership discount stores, such as Sam's Club.

          It's worth looking into as it should cost you less in monthly fees than a merchant account through Authorize.net. And it may be less than going through your local bank or credit union.

          You will need a business bank account for receiving the funds, so there is an additional cost there, if you don't already have one. Check your local credit union first, if you need to open a business account. Their rates are usually much better than a banks.

          Hope this helps.
          -Anita
          You are mostly right, however one does NOT need a business bank Account. Many Processors do not require a Business Bank account.

          As an example, one is NOT required when working with Charge.com
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      • Profile picture of the author Perfectaddress
        paypal is becoming difficult to work with

        also paypal is not working in India. i ma also facing much difficulties.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    AlertPay used to be my favorite alternative to PP. However, for the last few months they are not able to process credit cards for anyone. They are also not able to send you bank transfers or bank wire funds. They keep posting it will be back to normal but it has been so long I don't know if they will ever get straightened out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
      Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

      AlertPay used to be my favorite alternative to PP. However, for the last few months they are not able to process credit cards for anyone. They are also not able to send you bank transfers or bank wire funds. They keep posting it will be back to normal but it has been so long I don't know if they will ever get straightened out.

      Interesting, I didn't know that they're still having issues even on bank transfers. That's not a good sign.


      Re: Fastspring as someone mentioned, it looks interesting, the only issue I have with it is it takes 2 weeks to get payment - 2 weeks AFTER. (So if you had sales from the 1-14th, you won't get paid til the 30th).

      2Checkout pays me weekly, and I've had sales as close as Monday and they're still deposited by Friday. Maybe that's not norm, not sure, I know at one time you had to have a number of sales coming in to get that status, but having a 2 week delay is a bit annoying on fastspring.

      In that respect, I can see a merchant account makes more sense. (Again, being in Canada its not as easy as it is in the US, but maybe its time to look into it again).
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  • Profile picture of the author ashloren
    I don't think that most people here will have problems with their Paypal accounts UNLESS there is a complaint made by someone first. It seems as if they don't bother shutting anyone down that is making them lots of money, unless something is brought to their attention by someone else. Seriously. Besides, you can always just make a new one. It's easy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      Originally Posted by ashloren View Post

      I don't think that most people here will have problems with their Paypal accounts UNLESS there is a complaint made by someone first. It seems as if they don't bother shutting anyone down that is making them lots of money, unless something is brought to their attention by someone else. Seriously. Besides, you can always just make a new one. It's easy.
      They've shut down accounts that do make "a lot" of money. The higher the processing the higher the underwriting risk. They actually don't make that much off each account anyway.

      Most of the rate charge goes to VISA or MasterCard and the acquiring merchant bank. PayPal is actually the "merchant" and you are using their service. They are not a bank and simply escrow your funds requiring you to ask permission to get them.

      The funny thing is they have your money to cover their risk. It's just that they are liable for up to six months for charge-backs. That's why they often seize accounts for up to half a year.

      They have shut down accounts with no complaints or problems.

      The fact is they are moving into the retail sector with payment wallets. This is another reason they are shutting down more accounts now and limiting the IM market. This month they are launching into top-tier retail and expanding a pilot program with Home Depot.
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      • Profile picture of the author HypeText
        Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

        They've shut down accounts that do make "a lot" of money. The higher the processing the higher the underwriting risk. They actually don't make that much off each account anyway.

        Most of the rate charge goes to VISA or MasterCard and the acquiring merchant bank. PayPal is actually the "merchant" and you are using their service. They are not a bank and simply escrow your funds requiring you to ask permission to get them.

        The funny thing is they have your money to cover their risk. It's just that they are liable for up to six months for charge-backs. That's why they often seize accounts for up to half a year.

        They have shut down accounts with no complaints or problems.

        The fact is they are moving into the retail sector with payment wallets. This is another reason they are shutting down more accounts now and limiting the IM market. This month they are launching into top-tier retail and expanding a pilot program with Home Depot.
        PayPal still has to mitigate their risk which means they have the same "Restricted Business Type List" that just about every Processor uses.

        Multi Level Marketing, Lead Gen, Porn, Etc are always going to have issues.

        Because PayPals Sign Up Process is Automated they often don't realize that someone in a High Risk Category is using their service and when they find out, they pull the plug.

        My understanding is that PayPal is further mitigating their risk by starting to hold payments for 21 days that are made to Businesses providing services rather than products.

        Seems to me the Free Ride is almost over!
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      • Profile picture of the author ashloren
        Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

        They've shut down accounts that do make "a lot" of money. The higher the processing the higher the underwriting risk. They actually don't make that much off each account anyway.

        Most of the rate charge goes to VISA or MasterCard and the acquiring merchant bank. PayPal is actually the "merchant" and you are using their service. They are not a bank and simply escrow your funds requiring you to ask permission to get them.

        The funny thing is they have your money to cover their risk. It's just that they are liable for up to six months for charge-backs. That's why they often seize accounts for up to half a year.

        They have shut down accounts with no complaints or problems.

        The fact is they are moving into the retail sector with payment wallets. This is another reason they are shutting down more accounts now and limiting the IM market. This month they are launching into top-tier retail and expanding a pilot program with Home Depot.
        If you don't have a business account with Paypal (i.e. Premiere accounts) then they DO make pretty good money off you. The charges for each transaction can be considerable. For example, Paypal takes $20.00 out of a $500 payment sent to my Premiere account.
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        • Profile picture of the author Centurian
          Originally Posted by ashloren View Post

          If you don't have a business account with Paypal (i.e. Premiere accounts) then they DO make pretty good money off you. The charges for each transaction can be considerable. For example, Paypal takes $20.00 out of a $500 payment sent to my Premiere account.
          The money is not all PayPal's. Your rate and fees are collected at the time of payment, but include interchange fees, assessments and processing costs that are part of an interconnected payment processing network that has many players.

          The margin of profit to processors is very slim. PayPal is not a bank nor a processor. They are considered a "merchant" in the context of the payment system. You use their money transfer service. While PayPal obviously marks up it's services to cover it's costs, risks, and profit margin it's only viable by volume.

          I agree 100% their rates are higher than one can secure with your own merchant account. I know. I own a merchant bank ISO and have contracts with over 25 merchant bank acquirers. That's why we're developing another alternative to PayPal.
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          • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
            Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

            The money is not all PayPal's. Your rate and fees are collected at the time of payment, but include interchange fees, assessments and processing costs that are part of an interconnected payment processing network that has many players.

            The margin of profit to processors is very slim. PayPal is not a bank nor a processor. They are considered a "merchant" in the context of the payment system. You use their money transfer service. While PayPal obviously marks up it's services to cover it's costs, risks, and profit margin it's only viable by volume.

            I agree 100% their rates are higher than one can secure with your own merchant account. I know. I own a merchant bank ISO and have contracts with over 25 merchant bank acquirers. That's why we're developing another alternative to PayPal.

            Is your alternative ready yet? And does it work in countries like Canada?
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            • Profile picture of the author Centurian
              Originally Posted by Amber Jalink View Post

              Is your alternative ready yet? And does it work in countries like Canada?
              We are close. Offering beta accounts now through my signature.
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              • Profile picture of the author Amber Jalink
                Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

                We are close. Offering beta accounts now through my signature.
                Saw it - already sent an email

                Might as well keep my options open, although I've never had any issues myself with Paypal, I don't want to either.

                And I've read about them focusing on home depot and other retail stores. Makes sense for them, but frustrating that they forget that it was all the web sellers that got them popular in the first place.
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          • Profile picture of the author ashloren
            Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

            The money is not all PayPal's. Your rate and fees are collected at the time of payment, but include interchange fees, assessments and processing costs that are part of an interconnected payment processing network that has many players.

            The margin of profit to processors is very slim. PayPal is not a bank nor a processor. They are considered a "merchant" in the context of the payment system. You use their money transfer service. While PayPal obviously marks up it's services to cover it's costs, risks, and profit margin it's only viable by volume.

            I agree 100% their rates are higher than one can secure with your own merchant account. I know. I own a merchant bank ISO and have contracts with over 25 merchant bank acquirers. That's why we're developing another alternative to PayPal.
            Thanks for explaining some of those things, wasn't aware of all of them. And I'm really excited that you are working on developing a Paypal alternative, I have wished someone would do that for quite some time now!

            Will your service allow some of the stuff prohibited by Paypal's acceptable use policy (such as adult-themed products)...? Very interested in trying out your system, just sent email to request a review copy!
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    • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
      Originally Posted by ashloren View Post

      I don't think that most people here will have problems with their Paypal accounts UNLESS there is a complaint made by someone first. It seems as if they don't bother shutting anyone down that is making them lots of money, unless something is brought to their attention by someone else. Seriously. Besides, you can always just make a new one. It's easy.
      This is not accurate - paypal is hitting people who have never had complaints and even I was affected by this in the past. This is what made me dig into the reality of paypal's corporate structure and who is their master. I would never use paypal after all I found out through good due diligence - they are a minion puppet in the new growing game to "track alternative income" sources.

      There is a growing agenda in this country (and others tied to central banking co-dependency) to stifle independent wealth creation through alternative means. There is no longer a "small business friendly" climate in this country and THEY want you to go back into the JOB system just like all the other timid and docile masses around you. There will continue to be a clamping down on those who try to develop wealth independence outside of the system (going and getting a JOB). The ability to transact payments electronically is the weak link that small business owners NEED services to provide - as a result, this process will continue to be stifled (over regulated) by the companies that provide this service or from new govt laws/regulations.

      I have seen this also playing out in the Trading Education/Trading System industry so it is not just a MLM or IM situation - any group that has the ability to create independent wealth (and financial independence) for themselves or others is right in the target at this time - so get ready for even more problems ahead.

      My mentalities at this time are real simple - Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome! ;-) I wont let the pricks who run the "system" have the satisfaction of beating me at this game - LOL!
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  • Profile picture of the author Craftisy
    That sucks, my paypal was temp locked for a few days for something similar
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    The money is not all PayPal's. Your rate and fees are collected at the time of payment, but include interchange fees, assessments and processing costs that are part of an interconnected payment processing network that has many players.
    That depends on the source of funds.

    I would guess that a lot of PayPals transfers stay in system so the fees are small.
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    • Profile picture of the author BeechHill
      I'm afraid the days of the Wild West on the Internet for the Information Marketer are drawing to a close, for better, or worse.


      Seems now, you're no longer welcomed at PayPal if they even smell an IM that promotes hyperbole in a money making proposition. Watch out if your gig is the, You Can Make $10,871.31 a Day Doing the Two Step Shuffle. Furthermore, I wouldn't expect some other provider to carry the water for very long, if they won't.


      Amazon is quickly booting anyone out the door and closing accounts that sends a Kindle book on down which has even the faintest suggestion to a relationship with PLR, or has information which they deem, could be just as easily found on the Internet. By the way, the noose, as well, is also quickly tightening on their Amazon affiliate program.


      I don't have to remind everyone that Google is putting the squeeze on almost monthly, dropping sites faster then bombs over Dresden, which add little or no value other then a link to some affiliate promotion.


      Looks like it's back to the future. Selling physical goods, unique information with terrific value and producing quality. Same as it ever was.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    I think we need to recommend to this forum to begin their own payment system purely for WSO and the likes on WF. WF can charge monthly charges and make more money.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Harvey M
    Solution? Stay the hell away from PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      As a matter of fact, if you look at what drew Frank Kern's lawsuit from the FTC in 2009, it was his product someone stole and resold fake coaching with his branding.

      They claimed THAT was a pyramid scheme. Reselling his stuff. Sound familiar? Frank took a loan on his house to pay $100,000 in lawyers and settlement costs.

      Even though he had nothing to do with the resale, he got busted. The income claims were not mitigated by the site disclosures.

      The FTC agent told him they figured if you had disclosures on your site you must be doing something wrong anyway. Go figure.

      Keep your nose clean. Shoot straight.
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  • Profile picture of the author PaymentMaven
    Like many others, I have heard many horror stories, not just with PayPal, but with other merchant account providers, too.

    One in particular, is about merchants selling really great promotion that exceeds their monthly sales maximum and their account get locked and money held. Most merchants don't even know they have a monthly maximum. Some merchant account providers will contact you if they see a problem, others won't bother.

    At the risk of being 'salesy,' I helped a number of supposed 'high risk' ecommerce companies, including Mike Dillard's and Kevin Wilke's with their merchant accounts.

    Paul in Los Angeles
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    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      Originally Posted by PaymentMaven View Post

      Like many others, I have heard many horror stories, not just with PayPal, but with other merchant account providers, too.

      One in particular, is about merchants selling really great promotion that exceeds their monthly sales maximum and their account get locked and money held. Most merchants don't even know they have a monthly maximum. Some merchant account providers will contact you if they see a problem, others won't bother.

      At the risk of being 'salesy,' I helped a number of supposed 'high risk' ecommerce companies, including Mike Dillard's and Kevin Wilke's with their merchant accounts.

      Paul in Los Angeles
      Paul is right.

      You can't just sign up for any merchant account. They typically give you a ticket approval based on your current usage and volume.

      If you launch a new product sale and flood your account, your account will automatically be flagged for fraud review. The sales may be held.

      You must have an account established that meets your business type and volume that plans for future growth.
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  • Profile picture of the author tsx
    Obviously we need more alternatives to Paypal. We can't be dependent on their whims.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by tsx View Post

      Obviously we need more alternatives to Paypal. We can't be dependent on their whims.
      One of the problems is the increasing government regulation of businesses like PayPal. For instance, since PayPal has an electronic record of your financial transactions the IRS decided it wants the summary income data reported to it. The cost of compliance, in addition to liability issues, makes it difficult for someone to easily create alternatives.

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author Boomer7
    Paypal froze my account for selling SEO services. Go figure. Their customer service is horrible, they said they have decided to part ways with me as a merchant, and there is nothing I can do about it.

    I can also no longer pay for anything that is sold with paypal. Even if I click on pay with a credit card, my name and address triggers a block. Smart thinking paypal!
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    • Profile picture of the author gvsridhar171
      Originally Posted by bukucorp View Post

      Paypal froze my account for selling SEO services. Go figure. Their customer service is horrible, they said they have decided to part ways with me as a merchant, and there is nothing I can do about it.

      I can also no longer pay for anything that is sold with paypal. Even if I click on pay with a credit card, my name and address triggers a block. Smart thinking paypal!

      This is solvable. Not to worry. Go to Entropay, use your credit card and create a virtual visa card. This Virtual visa card can be used for your future online payments.
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  • Profile picture of the author gasman
    Wow that's crazy, I had no idea that paypal even had that rule. I pretty much only use paypal for paying people I outsource to, but I'm glad I read this thread. In my opinion, paypal should just worry about being a convenient way to pay for things online and stop having so many rules, and making it so easy to get your account frozen. I mean that's your money what right does paypal have to keep it no matter how you got it.
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  • Profile picture of the author aminur
    Tt's sad to hear buddy but 1 thing i got 1 of my paypal account banned last year. Middle of my launch. If they stop ALL make money transaction then it's cool because then we all have to find some thing suitable.

    Now 1 out of 5 people having problem with paypal ( not every 1) that's why it's not a big issue but those who lost Paypal account including myself, we know how hard it is to run IM business with out paypal and not enough information on Other Payment processor.

    I hope some thing new comes up quick which is similar to paypal and we all can benefit from it.

    chhers
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  • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
    Many of the recognized payment processor do not accept MLM i still can't understand why. Why do people want to gain the whole world and lose nothing. Even 2checkout does not accept MLM now, i guess that is an old story.
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    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      Originally Posted by johnben1444 View Post

      Many of the recognized payment processor do not accept MLM i still can't understand why. Why do people want to gain the whole world and lose nothing. Even 2checkout does not accept MLM now, i guess that is an old story.
      I can secure merchant account approval for "high-risk" merchants. I also have several international payment platforms that handle "high-risk."
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      • Profile picture of the author wolfmanjack
        Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

        I can secure merchant account approval for "high-risk" merchants. I also have several international payment platforms that handle "high-risk."
        Let's say that we have WSO running.

        The payment is sent to our bank account then the affiliate payment is sent from our bank account to the affiliates bank account that would generate some pretty hefty transfer fees for those of us not in the USA won't it?
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        • Profile picture of the author Centurian
          Originally Posted by wolfmanjack View Post

          Let's say that we have WSO running.

          The payment is sent to our bank account then the affiliate payment is sent from our bank account to the affiliates bank account that would generate some pretty hefty transfer fees for those of us not in the USA won't it?
          Any international transfer has some fees involved from bank account to bank account.

          There are alternative wire transfer systems to eliminate the high fees. I've been working with a few lately due to this very reason. If you have an affiliate system that needs this PM me.
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  • Profile picture of the author smitty7534
    I just got a notice from PayPal about a week ago stating that they will have to "hold any money I get for at least 20 days", because they determined I have risky behavior on my account. I rarely use my paypal account. I used to use it a ton for ebay but that was 2-3 years ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author UMS
    On the 4th of this month, I noticed I did receive an affiliate payment from a particular site (not going to name them atm) I promote. They are a pretty major site.

    I put in a support ticket and they responded with:

    We are currently having major issues with PayPal and to be 100% we do not know how to resolve it. PayPal are being extremely awkward with us and have locked all of our funds.

    At this current time we have no ETA and do not even know how we are going to process any future affiliate payments, PayPal have really disrupted us
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  • Profile picture of the author siirkim15
    have you tried contacting them?
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  • Profile picture of the author yohoho
    This might just put PayPal out of business, well the type of business it is doing now anyway. If we have an easy method of storing and passing currency along digitally it would make what PayPal does now unnecessary I would think.

    The Royal Canadian Mint wants to get rid of pocket change — and it’s enlisting hacker-types for help.

    Less than a week after the government announced the penny’s impending death, the Mint quietly unveiled its digital currency called MintChip.

    Still in the research and development phase, MintChip will ultimately let people pay each other directly using smartphones, USB sticks, computers, tablets and clouds. The digital currency will be anonymous and good for small transactions — just like cash, the Mint says.

    To make sure its technology meets the gold standard in a world where digital transactions are gaining steam, the Mint is holding a contest for software developers to create applications using the MintChip.

    Royal Canadian Mint to create digital currency - thestar.com
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  • Profile picture of the author mezblum
    Paypal will close and review on everybody's account.. because they do not have same policy with other bank.

    So they will keep other's money just like that if they want.
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    • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
      PayPal as a company is a "pet" useful idiot of the Central Banking minion puppet bank syndicate - the paypal business debit cards are backed by Chase (go do some due diligence) which is one of the "favored" minion puppets. The "system" wants their hands into the electronic payment game and they indirectly influence paypal as a company (so don't be surprised paypal is trash and will treat you like a scumbag even after they have made big coin off of you for years - just a numbers game to them).

      I would definitely find alternatives to paypal and get away from their autocratic nature - they are not around to help small business - they are around to model and track online business activities until the next financial grid consolidation event.
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  • Profile picture of the author oniram
    Well, it looks like I learned some thing new about PP. I had heard that they do this often, but not to this extent. What happens to the money in your PP account? What do they do with it after blocking you. Wounder if they refund it to the buyer.
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  • Profile picture of the author adaxah
    time to move to other payment means
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    • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
      I signed up for a WePay acct today - just sent out some invoices.

      Later today I will add Dwolla too! ;-)
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        • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
          Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post

          I started a WePay account and it was easy and customer support was great... untill i made $1000 worth of sales and they decided that they wold take the customers money and then not approve any of the sales and give the customer back there money 3-5 days later. My rep had no idea why this was happening and told me that it is the risk team that is determining that my sales are not approved. I was selling a site creation service, completely legitimate. The problem was that on my site there was a link to my other WSO copy and the risk team went into it and did not like my copy so they canceled all my orders. The thing is that you never know if your orders are going to be approved or not and i can not keep having customers pay to test it when they wont get they money back for up to a week if the sales are not approved again. Now i have changed my site completely to be Wepay friendly and they still for some reason will refund my customers after a day or two of the order for no reason at all.

          What i got from WePay is that they are a new company and they do not really know what they are doing yet. Most of the customers they have are charity orgs. I no longer use them because you just never know if your orders will be canceled or not for reasons they can not explain to you because you can not talk to the risk team (the same people that control everything about your account and payments) sounds a bit like paypal rite?
          Good to know - I am also checking out merchantinc.com to see how they are set up.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shadowflux
      The only thing I can think of when I hear that PayPal might lock out internet marketers is that some smart marketer is going to make an absolute killing with a new payment processing service!

      I can understand why they are starting to hate certain "Get Rich" products. Many of them have refund rates as high as 40% or more. The majority of these refunds are handled through PayPal, usually in the form of a dispute or complaint from the customer.

      Just think about how many "Make $956737 in 30 seconds!" info products there are. There must be thousands. Think about how many sales those represent in one year, 10s, maybe 100s of thousands of sales. Now apply that 40% refund rate and you're talking about A LOT of transactions.

      From a copyriting standpoint, maybe it's time to stop telling people they can make money in no time with no effort. Maybe it's time for something like:

      "I will show YOU how, with 6 months of diligent hard work, YOU can have a successful and profitable website!"

      It doesn't sound as good but it's honest *shrug*
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  • Profile picture of the author greenowl123
    I mainly use PP to collect payments on weight loss eBooks and such, and to buy and sell on Fiverr.

    So maybe I might be safe for the time being ? I hope...
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  • Profile picture of the author Aeristilheartly
    Alertpay, make friends with them. They work exactly like Paypal without all the BS inbetween. I've never had an issue with them... The only problem they have right now is they can't send money to a bank in the US because they're having a bit of an issue with that... however you can send yourself a check free of charge

    Sorry to say Paypal issues are not news to me. And if ANYONE from Paypal wants to complain about a pyramid scheme, there are two HUGE ones out there right now that have been using Paypal for the last 5 years. They're called clixsense.com and neobux.com... Thankfully both also use Alertpay so I have no issues collecting my money, but Clixsense has a downline all the way to 8 and Neobux let's you rent referrals which is a clear violation of Paypal.

    They're a very judgemental company, not that I want something to happen to Clixsense and Neobux, but I don't think it's fair that they can continue the way they are where as others who are just as legit as them are being punished.
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  • Profile picture of the author woodsy1
    Paypal used to be a HUGE processor for the adult side of the coin. You think you guys in mainstream are a risk and run alot of money, not even close to the numbers done in adult back in the early day. Needless to say, that didnt last and you also have it very easy with regards to processing in the mainstream side as compared to adult.
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  • Profile picture of the author mhaddyness
    wow. This post definitely opened my eyes. Time to look for other options before paypal also screw my account.
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  • Profile picture of the author mtbux
    Lol. Paypal sucks. We should Use another payment processor like Alertpay or OKpay
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  • Profile picture of the author ubell
    That sucks I guess google isnt the only one who slaps. Kinda makes me sick to think that only a few payment processors are readily available for us.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
    Personally, I think PayPal is on a slow but steady road to shutting down ALL "make money online", "make money at home" accounts. I no longer promote WSOs for that reason or anything like them. One by one these accounts will be closed.
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    • Profile picture of the author woodsy1
      Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

      Personally, I think PayPal is on a slow but steady road to shutting down ALL "make money online", "make money at home" accounts. I no longer promote WSOs for that reason or anything like them. One by one these accounts will be closed.
      I agree completely, look at what they have to endure with the "info" products, buyers and sellers.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

      Personally, I think PayPal is on a slow but steady road to shutting down ALL "make money online", "make money at home" accounts. I no longer promote WSOs for that reason
      This is something I wanted to call out here.

      Joan clearly thinks effectively all WSOs are MMO products.

      And Joan is one of us.

      I am very, very concerned about the likelihood that PayPal and people like them will draw similar conclusions: that, say, every WSO Pro offer is an MLM scheme... or every MooshPay product is a pizza recipe.

      The latter example is no less absurd than the former, but that will not stop people from drawing the conclusion.

      PayPal is not being particularly dense or obtuse about this matter. They're being just like everyone else. They don't pay much attention, draw conclusions based on little or no familiarity, and refuse to change those opinions no matter how stupid they are. In fact, the harder you work to change those opinions, the more those who have them will abuse and mistreat you for trying to make them think.

      People are just naturally selfish, lazy, ignorant, and mean.
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  • Profile picture of the author tjm2788
    This is another reason why I will continue to use Clickbank as my payment processor for WSOs!
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSEO
    I still don't understand the ones who use PayPal as a direct billing service to sell their goods. Why don't you use the special billing solutions like 2checkout or plimus? These would never ban you for an artificial reason.
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    • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
      Originally Posted by CyberSEO View Post

      I still don't understand the ones who use PayPal as a direct billing service to sell their goods. Why don't you use the special billing solutions like 2checkout or plimus? These would never ban you for an artificial reason.
      2checkout -

      Flat Rate as low as -

      Rate: 4.5% (Standard Rate 5.5%) Per Transaction Fee: $0.45

      That to me is highway robbery!

      Merchantinc.com rates are better at 1.99% + .025 and this is the reason I am going to set up a Merchantinc acct for one of my new Futures Trading System websites and see how it goes.
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      • Profile picture of the author Centurian
        Your rate quoted for Merchantinc. at 1.99% is for a qualified rate. My qualified rate is 1.59% at ezpaysite.com. I built this for warriors.

        Nevertheless, most online sales will be non-qualified or mid-qualified rates, which are in the mid 2%s +/-.

        Check everything out carefully. Be aware of loss leaders as sales tactics that don't always pan out in the end.



        Move up to a weapons-grade payment system. Click above.
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        • Profile picture of the author Centurian
          Originally Posted by CyberSEO View Post

          I still don't understand the ones who use PayPal as a direct billing service to sell their goods. Why don't you use the special billing solutions like 2checkout or plimus? These would never ban you for an artificial reason.
          2checkout and plimus have and already are limiting some types of IM.

          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          Neither Avangate nor Fastspring allow IM products (of any type). I've spoken to them many times - they don't allow IM/link buildign services, subscriptions, coaching, MLM, anything to do with making money (in any way), guides on how to build websites,etc.

          Avangate are not as strict as Fastspring, but still... Definitely not an option for the majority of people on this forum.
          There are legal ways to offer these services. Nevertheless, my system approves these niches with a network of 25 merchant banks. We place your business with the appropriate approval.
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        • Profile picture of the author AeroBuilders
          Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

          Your rate quoted for Merchantinc. at 1.99% is for a qualified rate. My qualified rate is 1.59% at ezpaysite.com. I built this for warriors.

          Nevertheless, most online sales will be non-qualified or mid-qualified rates, which are in the mid 2%s +/-.

          Check everything out carefully. Be aware of loss leaders as sales tactics that don't always pan out in the end.



          Move up to a weapons-grade payment system. Click above.
          I will take a look at your offer - alternatives to paypal need to get rolling and pick up some support.
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  • Profile picture of the author themikerogers
    I hate paypal and ebay. It is a wonder how Paypal is still in business with how bad their customer service and policies are.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robin Blinds
    Do you think that having to pay WSO Pro every month, just to sell products as an affiliate, looked upon by Paypal negatively?
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Guzman
    Is there any good alternatives to paypal? I know there has to be, so what can we do to be successful when getting attacked by all ends? Google, Paypal, FTC...?
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  • Profile picture of the author WF99
    Weird one !!
    Is your fixed at last ??
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  • This is very useful information. I haven't used PayPal for selling any product yet but have used it for working off of ebay and had no problems. I was going to begin using my account but that may be an option if they are clamping down on what they consider MLM sells and they get to define them. It seems to me though, that I've been hearing complaints with other things with PP and this just adds to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    I wonder if Harvard Business School is considered to be MLM. You pay money to them, they teach you how to make money, you start a business and train emplyees how to make money for you. Shady stuff there. </sarcasm>
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      I wonder if Harvard Business School is considered to be MLM. You pay money to them, they teach you how to make money, you start a business and train emplyees how to make money for you. Shady stuff there. </sarcasm>
      Haha

      I see what you are saying, but a more accurate example would be Harvard teaching all of their students how to recruit other students into Harvard. That's basically what MMO has been reduced to.

      You end up with an ever growing population of misguided marketers whose only skill is talking others into trying to make money online (by convincing still more people that they too can make money online). There truly is no end product or sustainable skill.

      How many of you would be up a creek without a paddle if the MMO industry went under? Don't think it can't happen, because it will. The "envelope stuffing" industry used this same exact model.

      You read an ad or got a flyer saying you could make money by sending out mail. You paid your $30 or $75 or whatever and received an alternative version of the very ad that you bought from. You sent that ad out to others and the process just kept on repeating itself. That matches MMO info products to the T. It too will collapse.
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      • Profile picture of the author YoungAndOpulent
        Banned
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        Haha

        I see what you are saying, but a more accurate example would be Harvard teaching all of their students how to recruit other students into Harvard. That's basically what MMO has been reduced to.

        You end up with an ever growing population of misguided marketers whose only skill is talking others into trying to make money online (by convincing still more people that they too can make money online). There truly is no end product or sustainable skill.

        How many of you would be up a creek without a paddle if the MMO industry went under? Don't think it can't happen, because it will. The "envelope stuffing" industry used this same exact model.

        You read an ad or got a flyer saying you could make money by sending out mail. You paid your $30 or $75 or whatever and received an alternative version of the very ad that you bought from. You sent that ad out to others and the process just kept on repeating itself. That matches MMO info products to the T. It too will collapse.
        Well said. For the longest, I've been trying to figure out what's the end product in the MMO niche, but haven't been able to. It seems to be a bunch of people teaching their buyers how to make money by teaching others how to make money...and the cycle continues. Like some sort of inbreeding. Classic pyramiding.
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      • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        I see what you are saying, but a more accurate example would be Harvard teaching all of their students how to recruit other students into Harvard. That's basically what MMO has been reduced to.
        No, that may be what the MMO products you are seeing have been reduced to. The good stuff teaches you how to build a business online, attract targeted customers, and make lots of conversions.... in any niche you want, not just the MMO niche.
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        • Profile picture of the author YoungAndOpulent
          Banned
          Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

          No, that may be what the MMO products you are seeing have been reduced to. The good stuff teaches you how to build a business online, attract targeted customers, and make lots of conversions.... in any niche you want, not just the MMO niche.
          I usually don't deal with the MMO stuff since its all "hype" most of the type, but this, I agree with. A good product teaches you how to build a business, not just how to make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author YoungAndOpulent
    Banned
    I'm glad they're doing this, to be honest. Maybe we can save desperate newbs some time and money by not having to deal with the 99% junk on the market that aims to take advantage of them. Me, personally, I've never understood why a person would sell you a plan to make money if it's doing so well for them as they claim. But we of course know the real answer to that.
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  • Profile picture of the author goindeep
    Sell a high quality valuable product, be honest, genuine and you shouldn't have a problem.

    If you do, I think someone should be able to solve it for you.

    If you cant get it solved, you don't need them.

    Trust me I had something similar with Adwords. They claimed I owned some fraudulent websites simply because I promoted a website (unsuccessfully, may I add) that apparently was doing something dodgy... nothing to do with me and I didn't even make a sale plus it was over five years ago... I tried and tried and tried with Google and in the end said Ill never ever use adwords again, and I haven't.

    Paypal me be right, they may be wrong. Who knows and who cares. Do the right thing and you shouldn't have to care.
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    • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
      Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

      Sell a high quality valuable product, be honest, genuine and you shouldn't have a problem.

      If you do, I think someone should be able to solve it for you.

      If you cant get it solved, you don't need them.

      Trust me I had something similar with Adwords. They claimed I owned some fraudulent websites simply because I promoted a website (unsuccessfully, may I add) that apparently was doing something dodgy... nothing to do with me and I didn't even make a sale plus it was over five years ago... I tried and tried and tried with Google and in the end said Ill never ever use adwords again, and I haven't.

      Paypal me be right, they may be wrong. Who knows and who cares. Do the right thing and you shouldn't have to care.
      PayPal doesn't ensure the quality of your product... and as far as I know, they've never banned an account based upon their review of a product... They couldn't even see any product you were selling through there..

      So I don't see how the quality of your product (other then that if its terrible, you could have chargebacks) has any bearing upon whether or not you have issues with your account.

      Caleb
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  • Profile picture of the author Techono
    Hi all,
    Some of you have already read my rants about poopal and their domineering attitude and policies.
    Now they are being just like Google, banning sites, and shutting down accounts.
    (Collusion ?)
    Selling certain products, (that I feel are great to learn, and actually help people)
    are a boon and Paypal are just stupid to be so pedantic.

    How are they going to regulate eBay (home/internet business) when similar products are being sold there ? I guess that you click on "Buy Now" and when you get to Paypal, you are advised that you cannot purchase that particular product, and the seller loses their fees as well as the sale.
    (Yes, I realise that eBay owns paypal).

    So what to do ?
    Leave/dump Paypal in droves and go to other Payment processors or somehow have a class action suit against them.
    The only issue I have, is that Paypal is almost WORLDWIDE, and other Payment Processors are not.
    So it is difficult to purchase products from sellers in other parts of the world.

    regards...
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  • Profile picture of the author FrankWellington
    No need to complain... That's how
    PayPal conducts business.

    If you choose to do business with
    a company that CLEARLY tells
    you UP FRONT, that (even though)
    you have a legitimate product / service
    that DOES NOT break their Terms of
    Service, however, "we reserve the right
    to ban / sever your account FOREVER."

    Why would you take a chance and give
    that company your business... WHY?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dunhill
    Paypal is getting worse. You can consider affiliate marketing as MLM in that case. Owner > Affiliate > Buyer. Paypal is most likely closing the payment processing for online marketing whatever method you make money from. Payza is another option but they are not good as paypal. I started CPA marketing because Peerfly uses Payoneer for payout and payoneer gives out free debit cards.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Dunhill View Post

      Paypal is getting worse. You can consider affiliate marketing as MLM in that case. Owner > Affiliate > Buyer. Paypal is most likely closing the payment processing for online marketing whatever method you make money from. Payza is another option but they are not good as paypal. I started CPA marketing because Peerfly uses Payoneer for payout and payoneer gives out free debit cards.
      Paypal are not necessarily getting worse. They have always been quite strict in what they will and will not let ride on their network.

      We just have more sellers on this forum than every before so we hear a lot more of the horror stories. But there are still way more people on this forum using Paypal without any problems at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dimitris Skiadas
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Paypal are not necessarily getting worse. They have always been quite strict in what they will and will not let ride on their network.

        We just have more sellers on this forum than every before so we hear a lot more of the horror stories. But there are still way more people on this forum using Paypal without any problems at all.
        Couldn't agree with you more Will. Sure, there have been some cases where sellers have done something stupid, that they will not reveal to us, and get their account restricted.There are also cases of Warriors, doing nothing wrong and again get their account restricted.

        The point is that if you are careful with Paypal, they will "take care" of you. Don't mess with them, they won't mess with you.

        Dimitris
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    • Profile picture of the author David Payoneer
      Originally Posted by Dunhill View Post

      Paypal is getting worse. You can consider affiliate marketing as MLM in that case. Owner > Affiliate > Buyer. Paypal is most likely closing the payment processing for online marketing whatever method you make money from. Payza is another option but they are not good as paypal. I started CPA marketing because Peerfly uses Payoneer for payout and payoneer gives out free debit cards.
      Thank you for mentioning us here.

      Payoneer supports MLM payments and have many MLM partners and we are continuously trying to add more.

      If any of you have questions about Payoneer and how we can help you receive your payments please feel free to contact me by PM.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    all money making busiensses are now banned by paypal?

    I'd like to see them refuse a big bank or some big smaming business with billions in revenues....

    Looks like I.M for the small guy is all but over now. Paypal/Ebay/G.FB etc seem to want to purge us form their systems and only deal iwth huge businesses.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Will....seriosly, do you get any kind of kickback form P.P at all? You always stand up and fight for them.

    Paypal are not necessarily getting worse. They have always been quite strict in what they will and will not let ride on their network.

    We just have more sellers on this forum than every before so we hear a lot more of the horror stories. But there are still way more people on this forum using Paypal without any problems at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    sounds just like the Government:

    I wish everybody would read Caliban's post quoted above. At best, pyramid/multi-level business models profit people at the top for a short time while sucking up everyone else's time, money, and hopes for success. Forget Paypal for a moment: Why would anyone want the "freedom" to pursue a moneymaking model doomed to multi-level failure?
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  • Profile picture of the author MatthewWoodward
    Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post


    I asked if i could sell a coaching service on building web sites and he said yes as long as the sites are not just to make money.
    What other reason is there to make a website =D

    I have had mixed dealings with Paypal in the past both with online/digital products and physical products.

    As a payment processor although they are the easiest to work with they are also very expensive and quite draconian when it comes to disputes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    Originally Posted by igetpaid View Post

    I agree with WillR
    The thanks button was created to get rid of posts like this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cesar Sampaio
    Maybe people should offer other payment processors along with Paypal and educate people to use them as well. It's always better not to put all the eggs in a single basket.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfredo Carrion
    Originally Posted by Adam Martinez View Post

    Issue resolved
    So, how it was resolved?

    Warriors, please, don't delete your original posts when your issues are resolved. Leave them there for others to read them and learn from them. And, if possible, update them with your findings and answers.

    Thank you!

    - Alfredo
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