I think I've been scammed out of $997

steven Clayden

11 years ago

if you paid by credit card can you do a charge back?

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David Keith

11 years ago

It sounds like it's almost time to call your credit card company and start the chargeback process. I would contact them and let them know that you are about to do this and see if that lights a fire under their a$$ at all.

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Dann Vicker

11 years ago

Report this to your credit card company immediately for a chargeback before time runs out

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rhinocl 11 years ago

Are you sure that the company that you allowed access to your computer was reputable? A friend of mine paid $200 to some one who pretended to be from Microsoft and gave them remote access. I pulled over 700 viruses off her computer after they 'cleaned' it. Suggest you step up the virus scans.
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TopKat22

11 years ago

Unfortunately, even with all my business experience, early on in IM, I succumbed to such a thing.

I had paid with paypal and so filed a dispute and immediately escalated it to a refund request.

Paypal will work faster to resolve this for you've if you have very kindly asked for the refund from the company and not gotten it and then copy those emails both what you sent and received back plus the original offer to them for resolution.

You state the reason for the refund is product was not as advertised.

I imagine a credit card company would do the same thing.

Then, I posted the whole things on spambook.com with the name of the company and the name of the software in the title which then got indexed by google in a few hours.

I did this so that no one else would fall prey to that scammer.

Others immediately found that post in a matter of days and I responded to them on how to get the refunds.

If you do not want to use your real name on spambook, make your account name something else when you sign up for free.

Good luck.

Let us know how it turns out.

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Sean Doody

11 years ago

Thanks everyone!

I paid using a credit card directly. ( not even my credit card - had permission though - )

I will start looking into 'chargeback' now and let you know how it goes.

I forwarded the url of this thread to the customer support that used to reply to me.

That might spur them into action

Thanks again,
Sean

Thanks
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TopKat22

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seanthewebguy

Thanks everyone!

I paid using a credit card directly. ( not even my credit card - had permission though - )

I will start looking into 'chargeback' now and let you know how it goes.

I forwarded the url of this thread to the customer support that used to reply to me.

That might spur them into action

Thanks again,
Sean

Good.

Chargebacks via credit cards are a very easy to get even when the product was delivered, so since this was not as advertised, it should be really easy. However, do not muddy the water. Keep the stuff you send to them strictly what they advertised, what you got, the discrepancies and the comnunication between you and the company since the sale.

Adding third party, unrelated information like this forum post will not likelu help your case at all. They have "legal" type people who review these type of things and a friend of mine who used to work at a bank who did this said that most clients harmed their own cased by giving much too much irrelevant information.

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James B

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seanthewebguy

Thanks everyone!

I paid using a credit card directly. ( not even my credit card - had permission though - )

I will start looking into 'chargeback' now and let you know how it goes.

I forwarded the url of this thread to the customer support that used to reply to me.

That might spur them into action

Thanks again,
Sean

Start the charge back process now, with your lender (credit card company) and they`ll ask you to explain the situation, but you dont need to tell full details, they`ll mail you something they need you to fill out. Mail it and wait for the response of the chargeback, and you`ll see your credit card account back to $997.

It would be great if you mention the name on this forum so we can avoid this tragic happening, if you feel like it though and digital point. lol.

Thanks

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David Keith

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seanthewebguy

Thanks everyone!

I paid using a credit card directly. ( not even my credit card - had permission though - )

Sean

probably this line from the first page Paul.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

David,

That's a separate transaction, though. Or one would assume so, since it's unlikely a gentleman from Ireland used the credit card of another gentleman from Russia. And if he did, the Russian cardholder wasn't doing a chargeback on anyone's card but his own...

Paul

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Nathan,

Ah. A joke. I've heard of those... I think.

Paul
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David Keith

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

David,

That's a separate transaction, though. Or one would assume so, since it's unlikely a gentleman from Ireland used the credit card of another gentleman from Russia. And if he did, the Russian cardholder wasn't doing a chargeback on anyone's card but his own...

Paul

So I'm the one who missed something...

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Scott Ames

11 years ago

Software is a tough business. What works well on one computer may not work on another. Different configurations, versions, conflicts, hardware, etc., all contribute to permutations for which even the biggest software companies have trouble testing.

I have seen the software testing labs at some companies. Banks of hundreds of computers for testing software every way they can think of are in play. I doubt a small company even comes close to that. There are going to be issues... no doubt.. I expect that to some degree... but...

What I can't stand for is a business decision to duck and hide when the customer wants to bail and get a refund. It should be easy as heck to back out. It should be just as easy as getting in. I avoid companies that put me through heck to get out.

Once I offered a membership that was quite costly. Someone wanted a refund and I gave it right away. They were stunned as mostly likely they were used to dealing with those that make it hard to get a refund. They thanked me and vowed to pass on the good word and that they would feel confident in dealing with me in the future. That's what you want in a company.

Not making the customer happy and trying to hold on to the money always reminds me of the monkey that' won't let go of the nut. A good clobbering is coming.

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Elluminati

11 years ago

Man, that's pretty messed up. I know I wouldn't hesitate to put the company on blast to give everyone else a heads up, if this happened to me.

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metaarticles

11 years ago

Do a chargeback and blog about your experience everywhere so that people are aware of this company and they don't fall in to the pit.

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savvybizbuilder

11 years ago

Never had that kind of experience. Just a little advised, next time you will purchased a software make sure there is a FREE TRIAL for you to try to ensure that the software really works and can truly help you with your work.

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Alessandro Zamboni

11 years ago

Hi Sean, it happens at least once to being scammed by someone.
Happened also to me with a big name of the WF, that let me pay $497 for a coaching and never delivered anything disappearing. That's sad, but it happens.
It was just 2 years ago.

My only hope is they will spend that money in medicines for themselves.

My advice is to contact credit card at their phone number to start a chargeback.
Print your payment invoice and take it with you, because they will ask details like date of payment, hour, amount, and things like that.
They will fix it.

See you soon, I wish you all the luck you need to get back your money.
Alessandro Zamboni

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vivi62

11 years ago

Just get your money back anyway you can,you are protected by your credit card company for a while but you need to move fast.Research what you are paying for and what google has to say about the item and the supplier,Hope you get sorted soon
regards
vivi62

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Mark Olson

11 years ago

Glad to hear that it was charged directly to a credit card. You shouldn't have any problem getting your money back. I've been dealing with a situation where i purchased a monthly recurring service from a "guru" type who wouldn't respond to emails, letters and telephone messages seeking to cancel the service. I finally called the credit card company who not only cancelled it, but refunded me 4 month's payment.

But, get this: Several months later I discovered an unidentified charge on my bill that had been going on for a few months. It turns out that the "guru" had started charging me again under a different company name!!!! I filed fraud charges with the credit card company on that one.

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Ken Strong

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seanthewebguy

I don't want to name the software and company just yet but I will be in a few days if this isn't resolved.

Not here you won't -- read the rules.

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Mollysue 11 years ago

I was scammed out of a similar amount last December and it took some perseverence to get my money back but I got there in the end!

It might be worth your while doing a quick Google of the software/company name as you might find people in a similar position - that's what I did. Being able to tell the credit card company about others in the same situation - who had got refunds ahead of me - helped a lot.

Hope you get your money back soon.
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David Keith

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Strong

Not here you won't -- read the rules.

He could certainly leave a fact based account of what happened in the product review section of the forum though.

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ina696

11 years ago

Thanks for posting this link. I always wondered where to get some kind of recourse when you buy something in good faith and the @#R(@*$@* you purchased it from fails to deliver or simply disappears.

I just so happen to have a factual based account of what happened to me (and other Warriors) last year on a WSO. Now I know where to post it.

I don't mean to highjack this thread ... so I'll leave it at that.

Thanks, David Keith

Ina

Originally Posted by David Keith

He could certainly leave a fact based account of what happened in the product review section of the forum though.

Internet Marketing Product Reviews & Ratings

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tpw 11 years ago

Originally Posted by ina696

I just so happen to have a factual based account of what happened to me (and other Warriors) last year on a WSO. Now I know where to post it.

Only speak for your experience when you do it.

Speaking for others is crossing the line.
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Lori Kelly

11 years ago

You won't be able to call the credit card company, you will have to ask the person who allowed you to use their card.

It will take a while, but the credit card company will refund the purchase.

Thanks

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TestiVar

11 years ago

Next time you see a price that ends in a "7", run -- run fast -- the other way.

It is a very common pricing strategy among scammers. It isn't very common in the real world.

Also -- don't believe the Nigerian prince story. He don't really have millions of dollars. He doesn't really need your help to get it out of the country. He just wants to rip you off.

Pay attention. The Internet has more than it's fair share of scammers and scams.

Thanks
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DianaHeuser

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Next time you see a price that ends in a "7", run -- run fast -- the other way.

It is a very common pricing strategy among scammers. It isn't very common in the real world.

Now that's another generalisation. I sell my product for $27 online, and if you go into the shops you will be AMAZED at how many items in a standard grocery store end with a 7.

Di

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TestiVar

11 years ago

Originally Posted by DianaHeuser

Now that's another generalisation. I sell my product for $27 online, and if you go into the shops you will be AMAZED at how many items in a standard grocery store end with a 7.

Di

You must have scammer grocery stores near you. I counted in several online and offline stores. The number "7" is the least commonly used.

That is especially true on Amazon.com, Target.com and both in Walmart stores and online.

Count them yourself. All three of those companies do constant testing.

The "7" rumor originated among scammers. It is still mostly used by scammers.

If you have a real product, then price it so that it doesn't look like just another scam product with a 7 at the end. The above three companies have done extensive testing to show that your sales will increase.

Generalizations are often useful. It is true that most men can pee standing up and most women can't. It is true that most emails from a prince in Nigeria are scams.

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DianaHeuser

11 years ago

Well then I guess all the stores in South Africa are scamming me. :rolleyes:

Gee what a shame. I might have to move to a more advanced country.

Di

Originally Posted by TestiVar

You must have scammer grocery stores near you. I counted in several online and offline stores. The number "7" is the least commonly used.

That is especially true on Amazon.com, Target.com and both in Walmart stores and online.

Count them yourself. All three of those companies do constant testing.

The "7" rumor originated among scammers. It is still mostly used by scammers.

If you have a real product, then price it so that it doesn't look like just another scam product with a 7 at the end. The above three companies have done extensive testing to show that your sales will increase.

Generalizations are often useful. It is true that most men can pee standing up and most women can't. It is true that most emails from a prince in Nigeria are scams.

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TestiVar

11 years ago

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wizzard74

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Either that or you are lying.

Since you already admitted that you sell a "product" with a price ending in "7" -- I guess each person will have to decide for themselves.

Most people have a store near them or can go to Amazon.com and count the prices ending in 7 though to see if you are telling the truth. It isn't really a matter of opinion. You just count. If the number of prices ending in 7 in a legitimate retail establishment (like Amazon.com) is less than one out of ten (the average since there are ten digits), then legitimate establishments do NOT favor prices ending in 7. Instead, they avoid them.

It's just simple math. Or you can roll your eyes and pretend that your entire country follows a different reality.

Does Amazon.com change their prices in your country too?

I've never heard of someone talk so much rubbish in all my days, I have bought products with a price point ending in "7" and haven't been scammed once, where did you get this "insider" knowledge from?

My local supermarket it's called Adsa, you've probably heard of it, you know owned by Walmart, they have products with prices ending in a 7, are they out to scam you as well?

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Cali16 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Next time you see a price that ends in a "7", run -- run fast -- the other way.

Originally Posted by TestiVar

You must have scammer grocery stores near you....
The "7" rumor originated among scammers. It is still mostly used by scammers.

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Either that or you are lying.

Seriously??? Must be nice to live in such a black and white world... :rolleyes:
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- Kierkegaard 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Cali16
  
  Seriously??? Must be nice to live in such a black and white world... :rolleyes:
  
  Let's not forget why products are priced with numbers ending in a 9 or 7 - it's not because someone worked out the fairest price :rolleyes:
  
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KevL 11 years ago

I feel for you - but, hopefully you'll get your money back via the credit card company. Many of us have been ripped off at some point, I was ripped off years ago for nearly double this amount, never got the money back - but I learned from it! I learned to be very careful who you trust, and to go with my gut instinct, as I initially had a bad gut feel about it but went ahead as the firm was reputable & the purchase seemed to make logical sense.

A friend of mine was recently ripped off to the tune of three times this amount - and it wasn't a case of making a bad decision, this was a seemingly reputable guy with glowing references, so it really can happen to any of us.

My advice to people is try to use paypal, and if a company insists on other payment methods, then perhaps it's because they know how quick paypal will issue a refund and grip their funds if someone files a dispute and proves that they're not playing ball in the way they should be.

By the way, ref the random "ending in 7 is a scam" sub thread which is developing - that's just weird! The ending in 7 trend (Rumor?? hey?) wasn't started by scammers! It was started by web marketers who conducted testing & found that for digital products (starting with eBooks, I believe) prices ending in 7 created the best conversions - just in the same way that offline retailers found from testing that ending in .99 created the best conversions, which is why pretty much everything in offline stores ends in .99. The reason you'll find mainly .99 prices on Amazon etc., I would suspect is that people selling on Amazon are very often offline retailers coming online & selling using the same experience from selling offline - just in the same way that if a web marketer went & opened a physical store, everything would probably be priced to end in 7 :p
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Kim Standerline

11 years ago

With respect, thats the biggest load of bull poo I've heard in a while.

I live in the UK and loads of stores etc end their prices with a 7, or are you saying big stores like Tesco, Asda etc are scammers!!!!!!

Kim

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Next time you see a price that ends in a "7", run -- run fast -- the other way.

It is a very common pricing strategy among scammers. It isn't very common in the real world.

Also -- don't believe the Nigerian prince story. He don't really have millions of dollars. He doesn't really need your help to get it out of the country. He just wants to rip you off.

Pay attention. The Internet has more than it's fair share of scammers and scams.

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Kay King 11 years ago

It is a very common pricing strategy among scammers. It isn't very common in the real world.

It's a common pricing strategy based on market research. In the "real world" the strategy is .95 or .99 - and has been for years.

Very simply, $47, or $67 or $97 is the last series number that people connect mentally with 40 or 60 or 90 instead of thinking 50 or 70 or 100.
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UMS

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Next time you see a price that ends in a "7", run -- run fast -- the other way.

It is a very common pricing strategy among scammers. It isn't very common in the real world.

Guess lil ol stores like Tesco are scammers then. Have you reported them to the authorities? :rolleyes:

Camcorders in Cameras & Camcorders PC, Photo & Gaming Direct - Tesco.Direct

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Kevin Riley

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Next time you see a price that ends in a "7", run -- run fast -- the other way.

It is a very common pricing strategy among scammers. It isn't very common in the real world.

Also -- don't believe the Nigerian prince story. He don't really have millions of dollars. He doesn't really need your help to get it out of the country. He just wants to rip you off.

Pay attention. The Internet has more than it's fair share of scammers and scams.

Winner of the Most Assinine Generalization award.

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Nightengale 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Winner of the Most Assinine Generalization award.

Amen!

Michelle
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TestiVar

11 years ago

Go look on the home page of Amazon.com right now. They do constant price testing and they are a huge marketplace.

Do you see a single price ending in "7"? I don't.

A lot of 9, 5 and 0. Not a single 7.

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Centurian

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Go look on the home page of Amazon.com right now. They do constant price testing and they are a huge marketplace.

Do you see a single price ending in "7"? I don't.

A lot of 9, 5 and 0. Not a single 7.

We teach using a "7" in pricing because the "9" is worn out and the "7" conveys a lower perceived price while maintaining a higher price point.

The reason "scammers" may use it as well is because it works.

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nicelife

11 years ago

Hi,

Can you please reveal the software and the vendor so we don't have to make the same mistake.

Thanks
/Daniel

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TestiVar

11 years ago

It is against the rules to reveal scammers here. Read rule #1.

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TestiVar

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Terry Gorry

But if the OP related his experience of making $77,000 in 1 week with this cool new push button software it would be ok?
(This is a rhetorical question-I know the answer already I think

)

Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware.

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TopKat22

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware.

Caveat emptor may apply to someone selling online from another country, but in the US, there are laws in all 50 states and federal laws now that put the burden on the seller to make sure that they represented the product accurately and precisely listing all disclaimers and any additional things that would be needed.

And the laws do not make this a civil matter anymore. It becomes a criminal matter and the severity of whether a misdemeanor or felony is the total amount of money lost or spent by unsuspecting buyers.

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TestiVar

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TopKat22

Caveat emptor may apply to someone selling online from another country, but in the US, there are laws in all 50 states and federal laws now that put the burden on the seller to make sure that they represented the product accurately and precisely listing all disclaimers and any additional things that would be needed.

And the laws do not make this a civil matter anymore. It becomes a criminal matter and the severity of whether a misdemeanor or felony is the total amount of money lost or spent by unsuspecting buyers.

It isn't a crime for the owner of this forum to make a rule that says that scammers can't be revealed here. It is his right.

We can debate whether that is smart or not. I think it encourages scams. But this isn't my forum. And the owner of the forum has spoken. Scammers can't be outed here. It is rule #1.

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TopKat22

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

It isn't a crime for the owner of this forum to make a rule that says that scammers can't be revealed here. It is his right.

We can debate whether that is smart or not. I think it encourages scams. But this isn't my forum. And the owner of the forum has spoken. Scammers can't be outed here. It is rule #1.

Sorry. I wasn't meaning to be debating that fact.

My opinion is the forum owner can do whatever he wants as to rules of what can or cannot be posted.

I guess I must've misunderstood the post this was referring to.

My post was directed at the information about the scammer.

Sorry for any misunderstanding again.

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Bill_Z

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

It isn't a crime for the owner of this forum to make a rule that says that scammers can't be revealed here. It is his right.

We can debate whether that is smart or not. I think it encourages scams. But this isn't my forum. And the owner of the forum has spoken. Scammers can't be outed here. It is rule #1.

Right now you're my favorite troll on this forum. Nice job.

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Kay King 11 years ago

Arguing protection laws without know the full story or even the product sold - is ridiculous.

Start a chargeback. I seldom recommend that but the lack of communication would seem to make it advisable.

BUT - MORE IMPORTANTLY -

You bought an expensive product you could NOT afford - and that's the biggest problem.

If you know you don't have the money to buy a certain level of product - don't read those sales pages. Spend that time using what you do have to make more money before you spend it.

kay
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cookie58 11 years ago

Originally Posted by TestiVar

It is against the rules to reveal scammers here. Read rule #1.

Total JOKE !!! That Explains A lot , No wonder I cannot get my Questions answered when I send a ticket In .
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nicelife

11 years ago

Oh yeah, protect the scammers ;-)

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notek

11 years ago

Ask for a refund from your credit card company - worked for me...

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Nathan Alexander 11 years ago

Originally Posted by notek

Ask for a refund from your credit card company - worked for me...

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up a minute....

I'm just a little nervous that no one is worried about a mysterious gentleman from Russia being able to get money back from the OP's credit card.

That's doesn't worry any of you?
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- Paul Myers 11 years ago
  
  Nathan,
  
  Ummm... The gentleman from Russia is claiming he was able to deal with another issue by doing a chargeback through his own credit card company.
  
  Why would that worry anyone here? Did I miss something?
  
  Paul
  
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TCwarrior

11 years ago

you may not even need to go for the chargeback if the vendor used a payment-provider like SWREG for example. If you ask the vendor for a refund and you don't get it and you are within the Money Back Guarantee time someone like SWREG will process the refund for you even if the vendor does not reply your request.

Thanks

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MarkUSA

11 years ago

I don't mean to change the subject or anything, but what could possibly be as expensive as $997? I am very curious what it is you've purchased.
Did you calculate the benefit of spending that $997 on domains, developing new content and/or buying backlinks? Or, perhaps using that $997 towards building an authority site?

Thanks
1 reply

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lingmag

11 years ago

This is an attempt to answer MarkUSA: I don't know how far you've gotten up in anyone's sales funnel, but products that run for $997 are usually a "system" or a piece of software that is advertised to "systemize" or automate several of your business tasks plus some coaching. Think of IM like a pie: you want a piece of the billion dollar pie. For free, someone will give you an ebook describing the characteristics of the pie or the benefits of having the pie. For $7, someone may sell you an ebook telling you an ingredient or some of the ingredients of the pie. For $27, you may get an ebook or product telling you some more ingredients of the pie or where to get those ingredients. For $47, $67, or $97 you can get a more advanced product revealing all the ingredients and giving you some instructions on how to combine those ingredients. For $197, you can get some coaching or a product to tell you how to mix the ingredients. For $997, you should get everything previously mentioned plus the "oven": usually some software that does alot of the marketing processes you would normally have to do by hand, i.e., keyword research, article writing, backlinking, etc. BTW: This is probably why the comments got started about products ending in "7". The numbers I gave you are common price points for internet marketing/information products.

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MarkUSA

11 years ago

Originally Posted by lingmag

This is an attempt to answer MarkUSA: I don't know how far you've gotten up in anyone's sales funnel, but products that run for $997 are usually a "system" or a piece of software that is advertised to "systemize" or automate several of your business tasks plus some coaching. Think of IM like a pie: you want a piece of the billion dollar pie. For free, someone will give you an ebook describing the characteristics of the pie or the benefits of having the pie. For $7, someone may sell you an ebook telling you an ingredient or some of the ingredients of the pie. For $27, you may get an ebook or product telling you some more ingredients of the pie or where to get those ingredients. For $47, $67, or $97 you can get a more advanced product revealing all the ingredients and giving you some instructions on how to combine those ingredients. For $197, you can get some coaching or a product to tell you how to mix the ingredients. For $997, you should get everything previously mentioned plus the "oven": usually some software that does alot of the marketing processes you would normally have to do by hand, i.e., keyword research, article writing, backlinking, etc. BTW: This is probably why the comments got started about products ending in "7". The numbers I gave you are common price points for internet marketing/information products.

I understand the process, however I personally haven't ever gotten into any type of sales funnel except free trial ---> paid version as is the case with Market Samurai.
It's a known fact that beginners buy a lot of unnecessary WSOs and courses and then "never take action".
The fact of the matter is, if you dig deep enough, there are people in this forum teaching everything in those courses for free. You just need to look deep enough.

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Nightengale

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MarkUSA

I don't mean to change the subject or anything, but what could possibly be as expensive as $997? I am very curious what it is you've purchased.
Did you calculate the benefit of spending that $997 on domains, developing new content and/or buying backlinks? Or, perhaps using that $997 towards building an authority site?

Mark,

I've bought SEVERAL (even I daresay a LOT) of products at $997 and above. I've bought products ranging between $997-$1497 and coaching programs for $3,000 and $7,000 respectively.

In fact, I'm in that $7,000 coaching program right now. And (Gasp!) it only lasts for 6 months.

LingMag (quoted below) gave you a BRILLIANT explanation. He's DEAD ON.

Tomorrow, I have a one-on-one monthly coaching call with my mentor, the first of 5 over 6 months.

My mentor is a millionaire several times over. She's a VERY savvy lady. She knows she can serve people very well for a lot less by having them in a group program. If you need a lower-priced program, the group programs are the way to go. (But they're still more expensive than self-study information products, generally.)

But if you want her one-on-one, undivided attention, you're gonna pay the big bucks.

Why? It's not because she's trying to scam you or get more than it's worth. It's because:

1. Her family is very important to her and if she's going to take time away from her children, it has to be worth it. I'm impressed that she values her family that much.

2. As I mentioned, if you can't afford the one-on-one, you can join a group program which costs you less money but allows her to maximize her time -- and yes, income -- by having multiple people in a group program.

(And yes, the information and help are worth that much.)

Group programs are brilliant because they DO serve people who can't afford the higher-level stuff yet allows the seller to maximize their income.

Since my mentor generally includes group Q&A calls, you still get a chance to ask questions directly without paying a higher price. HUGE value!

If a multi-millionaire is willing to coach me PERSONALLY, one-on-one and teach me a business that can make me a millionaire -- AND offer her personal advice to my specific questions and situation (bringing all of her experience with her), I'd say $7K is pretty cheap. Wouldn't you?

If you're looking only at the price tag, you're looking at the wrong thing. You need to look at the VALUE of whatever you're buying.

Again, look at LingMag's explanation below. It's a brilliant analogy.

Personally, I want the option that gives me the ingredients, equipment, instructions AND the oven! (LOVE THAT!)

Michelle

Originally Posted by lingmag

This is an attempt to answer MarkUSA: I don't know how far you've gotten up in anyone's sales funnel, but products that run for $997 are usually a "system" or a piece of software that is advertised to "systemize" or automate several of your business tasks plus some coaching. Think of IM like a pie: you want a piece of the billion dollar pie. For free, someone will give you an ebook describing the characteristics of the pie or the benefits of having the pie. For $7, someone may sell you an ebook telling you an ingredient or some of the ingredients of the pie. For $27, you may get an ebook or product telling you some more ingredients of the pie or where to get those ingredients. For $47, $67, or $97 you can get a more advanced product revealing all the ingredients and giving you some instructions on how to combine those ingredients. For $197, you can get some coaching or a product to tell you how to mix the ingredients. For $997, you should get everything previously mentioned plus the "oven": usually some software that does alot of the marketing processes you would normally have to do by hand, i.e., keyword research, article writing, backlinking, etc. BTW: This is probably why the comments got started about products ending in "7". The numbers I gave you are common price points for internet marketing/information products.

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Kierkegaard

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Nightengale

If a multi-millionaire is willing to coach me PERSONALLY, one-on-one and teach me a business that can make me a millionaire -- AND offer her personal advice to my specific questions and situation (bringing all of her experience with her), I'd say $7K is pretty cheap. Wouldn't you?

No.

I've had personal one-on-one advice from multi-millionaires (including a guy who is currently worth over £500M) and all the advice has been the same you'd get from any good book on business (which wouldn't cost more than $70).

Duncan Bannatyne (reported worth £400M) advises people not to pay out for 'experts' since all the relevant information you need to succeed in business is available free.

If, instead of giving advice, a multi-millionaire was willing to back you or let you use their name or contacts then $7K would be cheap. That would seriously help you to become a millionaire yourself.

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tpw

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kierkegaard

Duncan Bannatyne (reported worth £400M) advises people not to pay out for 'experts' since all the relevant information you need to succeed in business is available free.

But how long will it take me to gather all of that valuable information for free?

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Kierkegaard

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

But how long will it take me to gather all of that valuable information for free?

Depends what you need but no more than a hour. Bannatyne used nothing more than the free information leaflets handed out by government agencies.

Business isn't rocket science or brain surgery.

A useful contact list may be worth $997 but 'how-to' style information is not.

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lingmag

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kierkegaard

Depends what you need but no more than a hour. Bannatyne used nothing more than the free information leaflets handed out by government agencies.

Business isn't rocket science or brain surgery.

A useful contact list may be worth $997 but 'how-to' style information is not.

$997 products are not "how-to" info. They are "done-for-you" products that take a lot of individual tasks you have to do and "automate" them. Think of applications with dashboards and that kind of thing. I've seen some that do automatic keyword analysis, niche research, data collection, youtube video analysis, url scraping, and so on; some that send out emails and templates/ etc. Yes, you can do these things buy hand but what you are paying for is convenience and freeing up your time for other things. No, I don't have one; No, I'm not an affiliate for one; I'm not advocating them. Well, I would advocate one that works...

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PatriciaJ

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

But how long will it take me to gather all of that valuable information for free?

and how many of us will understand it?

Originally Posted by Kierkegaard

Depends what you need but no more than a hour. Bannatyne used nothing more than the free information leaflets handed out by government agencies.

Business isn't rocket science or brain surgery.

A useful contact list may be worth $997 but 'how-to' style information is not.

Duncan Bannatyne is a very clever man - must be to be able to understand the long winded leaflets handed out by British government agencies.

My twopennorth - I agree with what Paul Myers said but feel more strongly.

I think that there are too many people going around claiming scams when really what they have encountered are not scams. This thread sounds more like crap customer service than a scam to me yet scam has been used in the headline. If the op can get a chargeback then he hasn't been scammed, just wish him luck.

Naming and shaming on somebody else's site is not on. I used to run a scam warning site about ten years ago and I did name and shame, but NEVER on anybody's say so. I only named the scams and perpetrators if I had indisputable proof that these people had set out to scam others. Apart from protecting myself from being sued - and I did get threatened often - I was protecting those who were being unfairly accused and that does happen. I would never have done that naming and shaming on anybody elses web property.

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TopBackBuilder

11 years ago

thats why it's always a good idea to outsource, buying THAT expensive of software can be a serious risk (possibly not worth the risk).

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lingmag

11 years ago

MarkUSA, you had asked what seanthewebguy could have purchased for $997. Although I don't know the specific product, I was trying to give you an idea of what it could have been. If you attend enough webinars or get into someone's sales funnel, you'll run into these products soon enough. I'm certainly not advocating buying them. And yes, you can probably get everything you need for free on the forum or out on the web. But what you are paying for is the convenience of having it put together for you if you don't know what to look for or where to look for it.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

It isn't a crime for the owner of this forum to make a rule that says that scammers can't be revealed here. It is his right.

We can debate whether that is smart or not. I think it encourages scams. But this isn't my forum. And the owner of the forum has spoken. Scammers can't be outed here. It is rule #1.

Actually, Rule #1 is:

If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God, take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.

That rule was put in place for very specific reasons, and they had nothing to do with "protecting scammers." (It's older than 2008, by the way. That's just when Allen moved from Snitz to vBulletin, and posted the rules here.)

It has always been the case, especially with electronic forums, that some people will translate "I don't like this" or "I don't understand this" to "This is evil." It's particularly common when you're dealing with money/business issues. And one hell of a lot of people get into online selling with no understanding at all of business.

In the early days of this forum, we had a lot of anonymous (and some non-anonymous) people coming in here leveling all sorts of accusations about other people in the industry. The majority of those, when the truth was possible to determine, turned out to be completely false. They were motivated by malice and ignorance.

Over the years, this sort of "scam reporting" has increased. Some of them are talking about problems that really are scams, but most aren't. It's much more common to find that they're the result of poor communication, unrealistic expectations, or an attempt to blackmail the seller into giving someone something they want but were never promised.

Keep in mind that I'm talking there about the instances when the truth of the thing can be determined. Most of the time, we just don't have the ability to find out for sure. Evidence can easily be faked in a digital environment, and we don't have access to the sorts of things that a court of law might.

We know that the majority of claims of "scamming" are exaggerated or outright false. We know that people will try to use the reach of this forum to damage others for reasons that have nothing to do with fairness or honest dealings.

We also know what happens if you allow even a few of these to remain posted. They encourage others to post more of them, and with ever-decreasing levels of accuracy.

The choice then becomes: Let anyone say anything they want, and contribute knowingly to harming a lot of innocent people, or don't allow the claims at all.

In weighing the harm involved, we also considered that, in most cases, a person has other, far more effective, ways to address and correct having been scammed than posting in this forum.

The goal is to protect innocent people from being damaged by false accusations. And yes, that does have the unfortunate side-effect of keeping people from outing real scammers here.

Until we find some way to equip the moderators with perfect knowledge and perfect judgement, this is the "least harm" solution.

Paul

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TopKat22

11 years ago

Paul,

Even though you did not need to explain, your post here is very informative and I agree with you.

Thank you.

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Jonathan Joseph

11 years ago

Hi Sean,

I've dealt with a similar situation in the past. What I would suggest (like a few other warriors here), is to immediately contact your credit card company (or paypal - if that was the way of purchase); and begin the 'charge back' process.

Things I suggest:

1) Present the email conversations between you and that company. (Screen-shots, print and fax, scan, email forward - what ever you have to do to provide it as proof).

2) Let the paypal or credit company know that you purchased something which was not given to you. ie: they promised a working software, and didn't provide you with that.

3) Perhaps even have a lawyer write a letter to the allegedly unethical company about crediting your purchase price in return, or else a lawsuit will take place.

All the best with this situation!

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Kierkegaard

11 years ago

The law is on your side.

The product you bought must be fit for purpose (and part of that includes being of the same value, usefulness, quality, etc. of other similar products currently on sale at this price).

All experienced scammers know two things:

(i) Some people will never claim their money back; or give up after a half-hearted attempt.

(ii) What money must be paid back in refunds can come out of the money made from people not claiming refunds or giving up their claims.

A scam still ongoing is the 'competition magazine'. People are encouraged to take out subscriptions to a magazine full of competitions (prize winning crosswords, etc.) Subscribers are told that anyone not winning more than their subscription fees in prizes can claim their money back. Very few people ever go to the effort of claiming back their money. Those that do are paid out of the money paid by those who don't.

The moral is that, if you put in the effort, you will get your money back. You'll have still wasted a whole lot of time and had to put up with the stress but you'll get your money back.

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Thaddaeus T. Hogg 11 years ago

Until we find some way to equip the moderators with perfect knowledge and perfect judgement,

Well now, let's be facin it... As good as them modulator folks is, you cain't never make them just like ole Thad!

Right now you're my favorite troll on this forum. Nice job.

Just wait a dadgum minute there fellar! How come I cain't be yore favorite troll? I can hang out under a bridge as good as the best of em! Actually, I'm just kiddin on ya... my favorite troll is using a yellow jiggiewhopper being pulled along behind the boat! I would use one a them spinner thinggies cept mamma cain't row fast enough to make the dadgum thang spin!

Now as for the facts on the number "seven" ole Thad can tell you the absolute truth about that there. The number seven is a right fine number. It comes somewhere twixt the number five and the number eleven. It is a right easy number to make cause you can make it without havin to life yore writin utensils off the paper.

I did some market research an I found that most folks will buy somethin endin in the number 7 than they would somethin that ended with the number 9. See, the number 9 looks like a saggin whankiedoodle and it's sorta depressin. I also found that folks like the number 3 the bestest cause it looks like yore up in a tree lookin down on some hootiedoodies.

That there is Thad's marketin lesson of the day and ya'll take care!
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- Paul Myers 11 years ago
  
  Thad,
  
  Well now, let's be facin it... As good as them modulator folks is, you cain't never make them just like ole Thad!
  
  Sadly, that's true. You are so far ahead of the curve, they broke the mold before they made you!
  
  Paul
  
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paul_1

11 years ago

Very well said Paul. Thanks for the information and the well explained post.

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biggoogle 11 years ago

To add to what Jonathan Joseph said above - use recordiapro.com to record your telephone conversations with them if at all possible. They will never know that they are being recorded.

I've done this successfully a number of times.

Research beforehand if it is legal in your state or country for you to record a conversation without the knowledge or consent of the other person.

It is in Canada.

Best of luck!

BigG
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reimer

Banned 11 years ago

I disagree deeply with Paul Myers and Ken Strong... Scammers should be exposed specially when they have done a lot a damage and more so if they happen to be warriors.

I remember when a software of Anik Singal (Lethal Commission) was being discussed in the IM products discussion section of this forum, several members where having tecnical echoes with the product which, cause a lot of "negative" posts. Minutes later several of those post were deleted.

If honest negative posts aren´t allowed (because those would be, conveniently for the scammers, labeled as guru bashing) then we should not have an IM product discussion section and it should be eliminated. What is the point of having a discussion section if you can´t discuss anything at all? If that is the case the name of the section should be changed to IM product praises. But it is just my humble opinion...

Now about what to do after you have been scammed

First, Contact the provider of your credit and file a chargeback. ASAP!

If evertything turns worse file an FTC complaint

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

In case it was a WSO product or a service, I would advise doing the same: File a FTC complaint:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

The previous also applies to all warriors who have been deceived by WSOs with phony copywriting and fake money claims. If you can´t resolve your problem here maybe it is time to expose the scams to a higher authority.

I really hope you get your money back! Now go an file the cargeback, NOW!!!

Best Luck

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Ken Strong

11 years ago

Originally Posted by reimer

If you can´t resolve your problem here maybe it is time to expose the scams to a higher authority.

Did you even read Paul's post? The part about how a lot of these problems turn out to be communication problems or other misinterpretations? And you're telling people that the FIRST thing they should do is contact the FTC and initiate a chargeback ASAP?

First thing you do is attempt to contact the WSO seller privately.
If that doesn't work, you can open a ticket with the Help Desk and present your evidence. A lot of times, a little pressure from people behind the scenes here can bring a seller around to make things good.

If that doesn't work... well, WSOs are locked and sellers banned everyday here.

Of course, that's assuming that the seller is, in fact, at fault. It's not unusual that the complainant is either completely mistaken, or is running a scam of their own.

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Ken Strong

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Terry Gorry

Did you even read the OP's post?

The OP guy has been in touch with the seller.
They have attempted to resolve the issue..but failed.
The OP then requested a refund.
They have promised a refund
They have not given him a refund.
They are now not answering his emails.
The OP threatened to name the vendor.
And then you threaten to ban the OP if he does so.

According to your list, he hasn't followed all the steps I recommended yet. (Although he may have, and I just don't know it yet).

Go read Paul's post again. He explains very well why naming people can't be allowed here. Do you know the OP personally? Do you have actual knowledge of what's going on here? Or have you already found the WSO seller guilty based on reading a thread somebody started here? You don't even know who the seller is, or what their side of the story might be, and you've already decided they're guilty, apparently.

Maybe they are. I have no reason to doubt the OP's story. But I don't have all the information at this point. Unless someone has factual, actual knowledge of the actual situation we're discussing, it would be a good idea not to jump to any conclusions yet.

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tpw

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Strong

Or have you already found the WSO seller guilty based on reading a thread somebody started here?

Unless I missed it, the OP never said this was a WSO.

He has only said that it is a software package he purchased.

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Ken Strong

11 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

Unless I missed it, the OP never said this was a WSO.

He has only said that it is a software package he purchased.

You're right, I made a possibly unfounded assumption there. I just assumed that since he was posting in the forum about it, it was a fellow Warrior he bought it from. A few of the responses mention WSOs also, which may have reinforced my assumption. I must be getting tired.

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tpw

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Strong

I must be getting tired.

Well, that can be understood. So many tired old arguments could lead to wearing one down.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

I disagree deeply with Paul Myers and Ken Strong... Scammers should be exposed specially when they have done a lot a damage and more so if they happen to be warriors.

That isn't disagreeing with Ken or I at all. I think you mean you disagree with the policy. Either you don't believe the damage to innocent people from false allegations or exaggerations would be great, or you think we should allow innocent people to be harmed in order to "out" what you believe to be scammers.

I've seen hundreds, and probably thousands, of allegations of scamming in this forum over the years. I would estimate that less than 10% involve any kind of actual scamming or other improper activity on the part of the seller.

I remember when a software of Anik Singal (Lethal Commission) was being discussed in the IM products discussion section of this forum, several members where having tecnical echoes with the product which, cause a lot of "negative" posts. Minutes later several of those post were deleted.

I am not familiar with that specific issue. I can say that we will delete posts that stray from "This problem and that other problem exist" into "This guy is a scammer and a scumbag." And those are the ones people scream the loudest about being deleted.

I'll wager I could find negative comments in at least half of the review threads in that section. We don't delete things because they're negative. We will delete them, though, if they cross the line from objective review to personal attack.

Paul

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tpw

11 years ago

Originally Posted by reimer

I disagree deeply with Paul Myers and Ken Strong... Scammers should be exposed specially when they have done a lot a damage and more so if they happen to be warriors.

I remember when a software of Anik Singal (Lethal Commission) was being discussed in the IM products discussion section of this forum, several members where having tecnical echoes with the product which, cause a lot of "negative" posts. Minutes later several of those post were deleted.

If honest negative posts aren´t allowed (because those would be, conveniently for the scammers, labeled as guru bashing) then we should not have an IM product discussion section and it should be eliminated. What is the point of having a discussion section if you can´t discuss anything at all? If that is the case the name of the section should be changed to IM product praises. But it is just my humble opinion...

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wizzard74

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Young And Opulent

This thread is exactly why the WF is gonna end up getting in trouble with the FTC.
....this is assuming that the transaction took place on here.

Censoring people that have been scammed by certain individuals, which in turn, leads to other people being scammed and the cycle continues. It's the same as allowing the person to do their dirt after receiving numerous warnings from victims. People have a right to warn others of shady business practices. Standing in the way of that right will land the "stander" in hot water.

1. The transaction didn't take place on the warrior forum, the OP brought the product from the same vendor but in an email.

2. The reason why "scammers" aren't allowed to be outed on here is simple. Very easy for a customer to level an accusation at a "scammer" for the truth to come out that in fact the customer was trying it on. That could land WF in hot water with the person falsely accused.

3. A forum that has been established as long as WF has been, will have a lawyer to deal with any such accusations, but that will take place behind closed doors.

When you start running a forum of your own you will soon realise that there is a fine balance to be struck with out WF landing in hot water with either party.

You want to out scammers and run the risk of them sueing you when it turns out that the customer is pulling a fast one, then feel free to set up your own site and offer such a service.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

This thread is exactly why the WF is gonna end up getting in trouble with the FTC.
....this is assuming that the transaction took place on here.

[sigh] Lack of reading is an epidemic online. Been true for as long as there's been an 'online,' but you'd think it would lessen a bit as people got more familiar with the medium.

This particular transaction didn't happen here. If it had, I'd have done what I always do when I see threads about such things: Asked for evidence (via PM) and looked into it. If the evidence supported it, I'd have removed the offer in question and probably banned the offending party for some period.

Failure to honor a posted refund policy is a very quick way to get removed from this forum.

If the accusation turned out to be obviously false, the person posting it would find themselves banned for some period.

That is hardly 'ignoring' problems, or knowingly allowing scammers to continue to operate. We handle hundreds of reported issues every day, ranging from simple drive-by spamming and cookie-stuffing to more complex questions where the answer isn't easy (and is sometimes impossible) to get to.

The fact that you don't see the process does not mean it's not happening.

As far as stuff that happens off the forum, the mods here can't do a thing about it. And, as has already been described in excruciating detail, there are good reasons not to just let random people post whatever claims they want.

That said, there is a review section. If you can manage to leave out the personal attacks and stick to what was good and bad about a purchase, you can post reviews there. If you go through those threads for a bit, you'll see that some products take quite the beating from our members.

The real complaint so many people have when they start this conversation is that we won't just let them say whatever the hell they want, wherever they want, and do so without being held responsible for their comments.

Especially anonymous posters.

Paul

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R Hagel

11 years ago

Wow, youdda thunk this thread had a sign out front that said, "Trolls, Conspiracy Theorists and People Who Don't Read Entire Threads... Step Right In!"

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The real complaint so many people have when they start this conversation is that we won't just let them say whatever the hell they want, wherever they want, and do so without being held responsible for their comments.
Especially anonymous posters.

Fortunately I'm a long-time member with a real name attached to my account, so I get the leeway to say whatever I want. And I have some things to say...

First off, to the person who said [edited by moderator] -- you're a total [censored]!

And for the person who mentioned [erased off the face of the internet], I think you're going to soon find that [delete delete delete].

And OMG, if [username deleted] says one more thing about [mod edit], I'm going to [bleeeeeeeep]!

Finally: Thad, I still kind of have the hots for you.

love,
Becky

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Scam artists are always protected there as well. Leaving negative (but truthful) comments results in a person being penalized (a ban or deletion of comments), which could land you in trouble because it's deceptive.

Go through some of those threads, dude. You will find some that are packed with negative comments that weren't deleted. Because they stuck to the very simple rules for posting reviews.

And if you could see what happens behind the scenes, you'd be aware that scams aren't protected here at all.

If you got comments deleted from WSO threads, there's a pretty high probability you went over the line from product comments to personal attacks, or were arguing about the sales process rather than commenting on the product. And if you got banned for any period of time at all for comments there, it's likely it was for re-posting deleted comments, which can get you some period of ban in any section of the forum.

I'm curious... Did you use that little red triangle over there to the left to report the problem to the moderators? Or did you just rant in the thread? If you don't report it to us, we don't know what's going on. If you DO report it, we look into it.

There are systems for handling these things. You'd be surprised how well they work if you use them.

Paul

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wizzard74

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Young And Opulent

There's no way for you to justify the censorship of scam victims. A person has a right to warn others of fraudulent activities. Even if that event didn't happen on here, there's plenty of the same behavior in the WSO section. Scam artists are always protected there as well. Leaving negative (but truthful) comments results in a person being penalized (a ban or deletion of comments), which could land you in trouble because it's deceptive.

I've been collecting case after case of these situations in the WSO section, and recently submitted all of my evidence to the FTC. Including the time I was banned for defending myself against a guy who insulted me for requesting a refund on a product in which the seller failed to deliver. I earn more than $25k a month as a Futures Trader so I'm obviously not hurting for any money over a refund. But in this case, I'm standing up for the little guys. I'm standing up for the people who are in tough financial situations and come to the Warrior Forum for advice, only to be taken advantage of by scam artists and penalized for speaking out. That's not right at all.

Simple solution as I've already pointed out, if you want to run the risk of being sued then set up your own site to out scammers, but don't cry when you get slapped.

I'm not justifying censorship. I like you have to abide by the rules when you sign up for an account here. I might not like some of the rules but I have to abide by them if I want to remain a member here.

So if the rules say you cannot out someone in public on WF, then you can't, there is no grey area here.

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by reimer

If honest negative posts aren´t allowed (because those would be, conveniently for the scammers, labeled as guru bashing) then we should not have an IM product discussion section and it should be eliminated.

Best Luck

Please share with us your process of deciding which negative posts are honest and which are not.

Surely, you don't believe all negative posts are based on honesty. If so then please pm me, I got some stuff to sell ya.

I still see a lot of buyer mentality on this forum. I doubt most of the people yelling how this forum is protecting scammers have sold much of their own products.

If you had, then you will know no matter the quality of the product there will always be crazy people who would rather make your life miserable than fixing their own inadequacies.

Please pass on your honest negative feedback detector and maybe Allen would change the rules once he is certain the remarks are not coming from a crazy person.

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chaoren521

Banned 11 years ago

[DELETED]

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reimer

Banned 11 years ago

[DELETED]

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Tim_Carter

11 years ago

Originally Posted by reimer

dude I know you wanna increase your number of posts, but if you continue doing that the spammy way. You end up banned...

Do it the warrior way, pretend your are a IM star and start pretending you know about IM then post advices to whoever needs them or just express your opinion about the thread... or just look what the popular warriors are doing and imitate them..

Lol. Good one.... in my opinion.

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fenixpro

11 years ago

I don't mean to be an idealist or a whiner, but it blows my f*$king mind that people AND companies do this kinds of Sh*t.

Not only is scamming of all sorts something that happens, it's something that is totally widespread. it's all over the place!

What the hell is wrong with people? I even have a hard time with a lot of the big marketers (and small ones) using strong sales pitches and exaggerating via over hype.

My background is in offline sales and marketing and so I feel I have a pretty strong grasp on successful techniques to 'get the sale', but I always was about the relationship and about offering real quality and benefit to my clients. It's the same online.

We need a revolution of quality to kick the crap outta the retards. In some ways, regulations (gov) are good because they make it much more difficult for the scammers to operate - even if it makes things harder for us.

just had to let it out!

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paul_1

11 years ago

I think there's only 54 days before your credit card can easily do a charge back... Any purchase made thru a credit card is usually not paid immediately until 54 days...

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tylerlam

11 years ago

I am sorry for asking, but I am really curious what kind of software cost $997? I have been reading warriorforum for almost 6 months and have researched almost 100 different software programs/wso and none of them comes close to that amount that I can remember.

For $977 I can build quite a bit of sites, buy content, back links etc..

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djlest

11 years ago

if you paid with credit card dont worry, do some research and get contact your CC company now. check if a refund has been put in and is still processing and do a charge back

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TollFreeService 11 years ago

I actually just made my first, and hopefully last, chargeback as a buyer and BoA credited my card back.

Being a merchant and seeing how impossible it was to win chargebacks, I assumed that all I needed to do was click a button and I'd get my money back. Ended up being that I had to fill out a form and fax that back to BoA.

Still pretty simple I guess

And holy cow to how much some of you are all paying for things! Send that money my way and I'll at least send you a thank you note :p
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Yulia from DNP

11 years ago

I think you are still hesitating about taking real action here.
dont try to scare them with posts in a forum : /
Just do a charge-back, they will come running to you faster then you think, and "magically" they will start acting like they should, and start taking care of their costumers.

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Ken Leatherman

11 years ago

I have just realized I don't have a darn thing to contribute to this thread, so I'm going to say...

Oh wait I do have something to contribute. Once the solution (Chargeback) has been offered, why did so many people go to arguing about $997.00 products and the use of sale prices ending in a 7?

Now I have nothing else to contribute so ...

Ken

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robjones3030

11 years ago

I can see Paul's point about the probability scam accusations could be misguided at best, malicious at worst... ie - competitor driven. Happens all the time.

In instances where repeat offenders continue to return to the scene of the crime I'd be tempted to at least make a point of posting the type of scam and the basic elements of the offer for members to beware of. Even if you don't name names it might discourage them from re-using the same venue. Just a suggestion. Hate to see the bad guys profit from the members, and some of them make the rounds of all the bigname forums running the same scam from one to the next.

Meanwhile... look forward to a successful resolution for the OP. Getting swindled sucks.

PS: The thing about prices ending in 7 would be nice IF true, but scams just aren't that easily detected.
Too bad, but that method isn't going to work.

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yasser

11 years ago

file a charge back whether you paid with credit card or paypal

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clean99

11 years ago

Really curious about the software because I think I know which one it might be. I got one for exactly $997 around the same time but mine works good

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David Mcalorum

11 years ago

You'll probably have to wait an extra month now to get your cash back...

But credit card charge backs are always solid and they always favor the buyer.

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FirstChoiceSystems

11 years ago

Enough with the holding hands. Any person with some sense would know to charge back, ASAP. He states it's been weeks and nothing, so that there tells you it's a scam.

And since he states he used someone elses credit card, he probably doesn't have one for a reason, maybe bad judgement.

Yes, being scammed sucks, and being proactive is a must. Most certainly a lack of communication would have been the deciding factor for me.

The scammer and software should be revelaed here, as from what I understand it's not a WSO on this forum. It would be beneficial to other warriors to give us a heads up, just in case.

Good luck!

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the_icon

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstChoiceSystems

The scammer and software should be revelaed here, as from what I understand it's not a WSO on this forum. It would be beneficial to other warriors to give us a heads up, just in case.

Good luck!

Why should the scammer be revealed here? Especially if it wasnt a transaction that took place here?

I understand your reasoning for it however what if the OP is pulling a fast one? How can we believe him over anyone else?

If he was outed here and it turned out to be false then WF would be liable for putting such information in the public domain. Why should WF take the chance on something where blame should lie at the feet of the buyer.

It is harsh but so is life. But there are processes in place to sort such things happening and doing a chargeback is one of them.

Re outing the "scammer" put it in this context. Would a newspaper put it on their front page without proof? No. They would seek proof before printing it. Well, most newspapers anyway lol.

Point is, you cant print a story without knowing the facts and that is the stance the WF rightly takes with these sort of stories. Anything that could be construed as liable cant be printed. End of.

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Nathan Alexander

11 years ago

Hehe sorry Paul. I was amused with my own joke when I read his post and wanted to share.

Ahem, I'll uh, keep my quirky thoughts to myself. (I kind of feel like I farted in public.)

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Nathan Alexander

11 years ago

It was post 27. (Tapping the microphone...."is this thing on?")

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Kim Standerline 11 years ago

lol I just went back to post 27 to look

Originally Posted by Nathan Alexander

It was post 27. (Tapping the microphone...."is this thing on?")
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Ettienne

11 years ago

There's no software out there worth $997 that can't be found elsewhere for half that price or even less. Wow, and I thought the whole $997 thing was a thing of the past

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ettienne

There's no software out there worth $997 that can't be found elsewhere for half that price or even less. Wow, and I thought the whole $997 thing was a thing of the past

Oh really...

Where can I get Adobe Creative CS5 suite for $500? I want exactly the same functionality.

There are cheaper alternatives to your article writing service to be found elsewhere.

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Josh Anderson

11 years ago

"So I emailed again to be told I must allow 10-15 working days for the refund to go through, so I said fair enough."

Red flag.

At the longest I would expect only a 72 hour delay in processing a refund request and only IF it was over a weekend or a holiday. Then after the refund request was processed it should take a MAX of 5 days for banks to process it.

NEVER have I heard of a company who acknowledged a refund request telling someone it will take 2 weeks to process it...

Especially when it was a credit card payment and it only takes a couple clicks of a button to process a credit card refund.

My response to any company that told me 2 weeks would be...

"I am trying to give you the opportunity to avoid a chargeback. I expect confirmation that you have processed the refund today. If I do not receive that confirmation in the next 48 hours I will contact my bank and begin the chargeback process."

Again this is an appropriate response where the company has acknowledged your refund request but given you some bogus 2 week to process statement.

There is definitely something fishy.

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Paul Myers

11 years ago

Thomas,

I suspect a lot of these people would change their tunes if they could see what the mods see every day.

As an example, the reason you now need 20 posts to comment in the review section: We had people creating tons of new accounts on a regular basis, to either shill for a product or slam one. One that I saw myself involved 6 accounts all slamming a product that had otherwise acceptable reviews. All 6 accounts were from the same IP address, and had one post each.

But what the hell. We should believe every post, right?

I rarely need to go into that section. The mods there do a very nice job without my help. I just happened to catch a report on that one.

Or the flip side: We recently nuked a very long thread full of positive reviews about a product when it was discovered that the seller had offered an incentive for people to come here and post about it.

The seller didn't say "testimonial" or "positive review." He just asked people to post their honest opinions of the product, and they might get something cool as a thank you.

Nuked it. We don't allow incentives for posted comments on products here. That always leads to slanted reviews and a potentially misleading volume of "social proof."

It's easy for people who want to feel righteous to scream from the sidelines. And they might even believe their own press. After all, we don't exactly trumpet about which offers were closed, or why someone was banned. I don't think any experienced person would consider that an appropriate thing for us to do.

So, since they don't see what's being done, they assume it's nothing at all.

What's really funny is how many of the people who allege that we don't do anything about this stuff have never used the report function to let us know there's a problem. Do they really believe the mods have the ability to read every post in this forum every day?

If you haven't reported a problem, don't complain when it continues.

Paul

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Thomas,

I suspect a lot of these people would change their tunes if they could see what the mods see every day.

As an example, the reason you now need 20 posts to comment in the review section: We had people creating tons of new accounts on a regular basis, to either shill for a product or slam one. One that I saw myself involved 6 accounts all slamming a product that had otherwise acceptable reviews. All 6 accounts were from the same IP address, and had one post each.

But what the hell. We should believe every post, right?

I rarely need to go into that section. The mods there do a very nice job without my help. I just happened to catch a report on that one.

Paul

The review section was a major cluster .... I really felt bad for Pearson and Strong (not so much Strong heh).

Like I said, when you sell enough you will see that type of crazy behavior.

No matter what quality your product is, someone will hate it and make it their life goal to bash it.

Hell, just look at how easily people throw out the conspiracy theories and words like "scam", "scammer", "thief" and so on...

If people actually put that type of effort into building an income there would be more successful people.

If you haven't reported a problem, don't complain when it continues.

Yep, but that wouldn't allow people to post jihad type threads showing how superior they are to everyone else.

Who wants to report problems anonymously without recognition? heh

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Josh Anderson

NEVER have I heard of a company who acknowledged a refund request telling someone it will take 2 weeks to process it...

Especially when it was a credit card payment and it only takes a couple clicks of a button to process a credit card refund.

My response to any company that told me 2 weeks would be...

"I am trying to give you the opportunity to avoid a chargeback. I expect confirmation that you have processed the refund today. If I do not receive that confirmation in the next 48 hours I will contact my bank and begin the chargeback process."

Again this is an appropriate response where the company has acknowledged your refund request but given you some bogus 2 week to process statement.

There is definitely something fishy.

I have a two week refund policy. I would have no problem fighting a chargeback either if you decided you couldn't wait two weeks.

I purchased a computer from Dell once. I decided I didn't want it and cancelled my order. They already took money for the order and it took over two weeks to get it back.

They stated they had up to 30 days to refund purchase by law.

So, you may decide to try and charge back to get a refund faster, I wouldn't advise it.

I am actually shocked that you would propose this sort of action, Josh.

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Josh Anderson

11 years ago

If a person contacted their card provider and said:

1. The product was not as described.

2. I tried to resolve it with the merchant by requesting a refund but they gave me the run around saying I would have to wait an additional two weeks and its already been two weeks that I have not been able to use the product.

The card provider would immediately process the chargeback.

Dell is a totally different story because you are talking about physical products that must be returned, processed, checked to see if it was returned in a condition that was eligible for return etc.

You would have a very very hard time fighting a chargeback in the case illustrated in this thread where someone paid $997 for a digital product that did not work after weeks of support interactions and then was told they would have to wait two weeks.

This is why merchants should process refunds as soon as they are able upon receiving the request so that they can avoid chargebacks because in this situation you would loose if you faught it since the product was "not as described" and the refund was not processed in a prompt fashion.

In fact the ONLY way you would win the dispute is if you HAD processed the refund and could provide proof that you had. Otherwise the merchant provider would have nothing to base the dispute on because of the facts.

On top of that NO company with a merchant account who is processing high dollar transactions for digital products should take such a risk as to unecessarily delay a refund in a "not as described" situation. The reason being is that unless you do significant volume the amount could exceed the 2% refund to sales ratio that generally will throw flags to the risk department of a merchant provider.

It is in every merchant's best interest to process the refund as soon as they are capable of doing so and don't for a second think you will have a valid dispute in the case of a "significantly not as described" complaint where your product did not even work for the customer.

All my conclusions are based on my extensive experience working directly with merchant account providers and assisting companies in processing tens of millions of dollars in transactions a year.

Sure... as a merchant you are welcome to create delayed refund policies and in certain situations, like with physical product restocking, these might be acceptable in the eyes of the merchant provider. Also you have a right to dispute chargebacks. But in this situation it sounds like a clear case of "not as described" for a digital product and if no refund had been processed at the time the chargeback was filed after the customer repeatedly requested then it is a clear win for the customer because even in the case of a "no refund" policy a "not as described" dispute where the product never worked and no viable replacement could be provided the customer will win.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I have a two week refund policy. I would have no problem fighting a chargeback either if you decided you couldn't wait two weeks.

I purchased a computer from Dell once. I decided I didn't want it and cancelled my order. They already took money for the order and it took over two weeks to get it back.

They stated they had up to 30 days to refund purchase by law.

So, you may decide to try and charge back to get a refund faster, I wouldn't advise it.

I am actually shocked that you would propose this sort of action, Josh.

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Josh Anderson

Dell is a totally different story because you are talking about physical products that must be returned, processed, checked to see if it was returned in a condition that was eligible for return etc.

Nothing was shipped so there was no returning of a physical product. I still had to wait 2 weeks.

Besides, they said they had up to 30 days by law.

You would have a very very hard time fighting a chargeback in the case illustrated in this thread where someone paid $997 for a digital product that did not work after weeks of support interactions and then was told they would have to wait two weeks.

I believe the person purchased a software product. I don't think it will be that difficult to fight a software purchase that was delivered digitally when you have proof of email correspondence.

This is why merchants should process refunds as soon as they are able upon receiving the request so that they can avoid chargebacks because in this situation you would loose if you faught it since the product was "not as described" and the refund was not processed in a prompt fashion.

I have successfully fought such chargebacks.

In fact the ONLY way you would win the dispute is if you HAD processed the refund and could provide proof that you had. Otherwise the merchant provider would have nothing to base the dispute on because of the facts.

Besides email correspondence and ip download stats. Again, I have won charge backs before with that info.

People lie all the time on charge backs and yet I won some. I don't think I got many charge backs that I didn't win (luckily I haven't had many).

Anyway, your post didn't come across as a way to help sellers avoid charge backs but about how to game the system because you don't want to wait 2 weeks for a refund.

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Sean Doody 11 years ago

UPDATE:

This mornig I was greeted with an email from customer 'support'. The first aknowledgement I had received in over 2 weeks!

It had a made up s**t of an apology and a promise to ave the refund completely processed within 24 hours.

So a few weeks ago it was going to take atleast 10 days and now they can do it in 24 hours.

I would say that is nothing short of a miracle

I wonder did it have anything to do with a certain thread on the warrior forum.

Lessons learned -
1 - ALWAYS makesure to test a free trial
2 - If at first you don't succeed keep pestering the f**kers

BIG thank you to all the warriors

I hope to be back in a few hours with a positive conclusion

Sean (a happy warrior)
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YasirYar

11 years ago

If anyone is concerned that scammers may have their personal details and that they are at risk of identity theft, please read this page

Fraud recognition and prevention education, fraud victim advocacy, law enforcement support

I would also suggest reading the whole site. It definitely contains some very good information

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Thaddaeus T. Hogg

11 years ago

Like I said, when you sell enough you will see that type of crazy behavior.

Thomas, I done be knowin exactly what you mean! I know for a fact that when folks partake of my... ummm... product, they start actin all kinds of crazy! I'm thinkin that it is probably the rattlesnake venom that affects them that way!

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thaddaeus T. Hogg

Thomas, I done be knowin exactly what you mean! I know for a fact that when folks partake of my... ummm... product, they start actin all kinds of crazy! I'm thinkin that it is probably the rattlesnake venom that affects them that way!

I keep saying you need to cut back on the methanol for your public consumption products.

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dwriter

11 years ago

try complaitsboard.com or ripoffreport.com as you work through your charge back. This will ensure that others know of the scam in the business.

Thanks

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Tadresources

11 years ago

Definitely take it up with your CC company and try to get the money back through that way if you can.

Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers 11 years ago

Thomas,

Who wants to report problems anonymously without recognition? heh

I'll take "People who actually want to solve the problem" for $500, Alex.

Paul
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Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.
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- Thaddaeus T. Hogg 11 years ago
  
  I was just sittin here in my rockin chair just a rockin away, sippin on Ole Thad's might fine wart remover an a thought occurred to me. Now that does not be happenin all that often so it was a momentous occasion! I just wanted to share my thoughts with you.
  
  I LOVE pigs... well, most pigs anyway! I love the pigs what are clean and do not be needin much care. They live their little piggy lives just tryin to get along with all the other pigs and they obey all the little piggy rules. They make me want to be givin them lots of hugs and kissees on their little piggy snoots!
  
  Then there are the pigs what just do not seem to be able to live in piggyland. They snort all the time. They lay their little piggy ears back and make a dadgum nuisance of themselves. THEN they whine all the dadgum day long cause they ain't treated like all the other piggies! THESE little piggies are where bacon comes from!
  
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  Thaddaeus T. Hogg, The Hillbilly Marketeer
  http://www.hillbillymarketer.com
  
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I think I've been scammed out of $997

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