Ban PayPal from Warrior Forum?

179 replies
Hey, instead of reading threads all day about WSO sellers getting banned from PayPal and stirring up anxiety among forum members... Why not ban PayPal for once?

How about that? No more PayPal allowed on Warrior Forum.

I'm not saying DO IT.

I'm just saying think about that scenario and how it would solve... Well... Pretty much the whole problem.

How about only use processors that actually want your business?

I'm just sayin'.

I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering not IF but WHEN I'm going to be picked off by PayPal and how the playing field will no longer be level for me.

If all systems adapted to non-PayPal processors on Warrior Forum then we would probably be in the same position we are in now, except not getting relentlessly s***canned by PayPal.

PayPal clearly doesn't want your business as this PayPal rep talks about http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
#ban #forum #paypal #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author vic alexander
    I agree in principle Jason.

    I would like to know how reputable other processors out there would be especially with dealing with international transactions. I have always used and trusted paypal for these reasons. They are however, battering certain Internet Marketers so something has to give.
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by v4victoria View Post

      I agree in principle Jason.

      I would like to know how reputable other processors out there would be especially with dealing with international transactions. I have always used and trusted paypal for these reasons. They are however, battering certain Internet Marketers so something has to give.
      I think the biggest problem I face is not that there aren't other good processors, but when it comes to selling on the Warrior Forum, you can expect only a small fraction of the sales if you're not using PayPal.

      Because most customers on this forum prefer PayPal.

      But what if customers on the forum didn't?

      What if Allen reached out to a payment processor and said, "Hey budday, these are the kind of things that are sold at Warrior Forum. Millions of dollars in transactions occur monthly. Of course this is higher risk but you weigh the risks then come back to me with 100% certainty that we can use your payment processor without the bull."

      Let's say it goes down. So WSO Pro starts using that payment processor, so does JV Zoo and Digiresults and all others.

      And I think Steven Wagenheim should record a version of The Beatles "Imagine" except it's "imagine there's no PayPal" and post it on here.
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      • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
        Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

        And I think Steven Wagenheim should record a version of The Beatles "Imagine" except it's "imagine there's no PayPal" and post it on here.
        Best closing paragraph of a post EVER.

        A JV partner and I used click bank for a membership site that we ran as a WSO a couple of years back, although there were more hoops to jump through in getting it listed etc, it sure worked.
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        • Profile picture of the author options
          I just heard the full version of your call with paypal.

          Paypal are just like google, big companies who think they can shut down peoples businesses just like that with no warning.

          That really is so unfair, you made some good points in the call and i think he was a bit stuck with what answers to give you.

          The problem is everyone uses paypal, because it works well. people use google because it works well (not so much latly)
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          • Profile picture of the author options
            Very true honestbizpro..

            Maybe the warrior forum would benfit having its own payment processer. Just for warrior members.

            Its going to get worse before it gets better.
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            • Profile picture of the author options
              Originally Posted by honestbizpro View Post

              Now you will get some attention with that one.

              Becoming the processor is a freaking Goldmine.

              I would if I could!

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            • Profile picture of the author johnben1444
              Originally Posted by options View Post

              Very true honestbizpro..

              Maybe the warrior forum would benfit having its own payment processer. Just for warrior members.

              Its going to get worse before it gets better.
              I said this just a few days in this forum and discovered that someone on this forum already has a dream for that at Session One.

              I think we all should call Warriorforum to have their own payment system for WSO and the likes.

              Payment can then be transferred to PP/CC or bank account.

              Its wouldn't even cost much.
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              • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                I really don't think you guys understand what you're asking for and implying.

                Think about how that would look.

                "Because the types of products we offer and the types of members we have in the types of business models that are represented on this forum, we have decided to make our own payment system since other payment systems find it too risky to deal with us and our members."

                I know that's not exactly what the situation would be, but you have to understand how it would look to people outside of the Warrior Forum.

                It would be like having a forum where we sold paper clips.

                The only difference is instead of selling paper clips by the box, we sell them for $50 apiece. The reason for this is because they are made with a special material that actually makes them worth $50.

                Everybody is happy buying these paper clips, but there are some regulations that are saying that it's not acceptable to sell these kinds of paper clips for that price and so you need to adjust your business model so that you sell them for a lower price that matches pretty much what other people are paying for paper clips.

                Instead of adjusting business models, the Paperclip Bonanza Forum decides that they are willing to create their own economic system for their members. They can buy advertising and run their specials by buying Paperclip Bonanza Bucks. Those Bucks are now used strictly within that particular forum.

                To the outside world it would simply look like a way to get around the system and perpetuate some kind of scheme.

                I know this is an overly simplified version, but I hope it helps to get the point across.

                Not only would coming up with this kind of self-contained payment system be a huge undertaking, but it also sends a very negative message to people outside of the forum and to the very people that are starting to put the WF under scrutiny in the first place.

                JMHO and YMMV
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

        I think the biggest problem I face is not that there aren't other good processors, but when it comes to selling on the Warrior Forum, you can expect only a small fraction of the sales if you're not using PayPal.

        Because most customers on this forum prefer PayPal.

        But what if customers on the forum didn't?

        What if Allen reached out to a payment processor and said, "Hey budday, these are the kind of things that are sold at Warrior Forum. Millions of dollars in transactions occur monthly. Of course this is higher risk but you weigh the risks then come back to me with 100% certainty that we can use your payment processor without the bull."

        Let's say it goes down. So WSO Pro starts using that payment processor, so does JV Zoo and Digiresults and all others.

        And I think Steven Wagenheim should record a version of The Beatles "Imagine" except it's "imagine there's no PayPal" and post it on here.
        Jason, you're on. Sometime this year I'll work on it.

        I agree. Paypal is a scary option and one of the reasons I'm glad I'm getting
        out of this business before I'm shut down for no other reason than they don't
        like the looks of my face.

        Imagine there's no Paypal
        It's easy if you try
        No customers to sell to
        As your business slowly dies

        Yeah, I feel a song in the making.

        Thanks Jason...I owe you one.
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        • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
          Lol!

          Epic lyrics. Epic.


          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Jason, you're on. Sometime this year I'll work on it.

          I agree. Paypal is a scary option and one of the reasons I'm glad I'm getting
          out of this business before I'm shut down for no other reason than they don't
          like the looks of my face.

          Imagine there's no Paypal
          It's easy if you try
          No customers to sell to
          As your business slowly dies

          Yeah, I feel a song in the making.

          Thanks Jason...I owe you one.
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        • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Jason, you're on. Sometime this year I'll work on it.

          I agree. Paypal is a scary option and one of the reasons I'm glad I'm getting
          out of this business before I'm shut down for no other reason than they don't
          like the looks of my face.

          Imagine there's no Paypal
          It's easy if you try
          No customers to sell to
          As your business slowly dies

          Yeah, I feel a song in the making.

          Thanks Jason...I owe you one.
          @ Steven, pardon me but when I read the opening stanza to your altered Imagine lyrics I just couldn't get it out of my head. Words started to flow. So, I thought maybe we could do a duet... LOL.

          I retained the 1st four lines of your 1st verse then added to it. Hope you don't mind...

          "Imagine there's no Paypal
          It's easy if you try
          No customers to sell to
          As your business slowly dies
          Imagine all the scammers
          Earning an honest pay...

          Imagine there's no refunds
          It isn't hard to do
          No-one to cheat or lie to
          And no exaggerations too
          Imagine all the buyers
          Living life in bliss...

          You may say I'm a prophet
          But I'm not the only one
          I hope someday you'll understand this
          And the all cheating will come undone

          Imagine no false promises
          I wonder if you can
          No need for fake screenshots
          Or deceiving your fellow man
          Imagine honest people
          Sharing what they know...

          You may say I'm a prophet
          But I'm not the only one
          I hope someday you'll understand this
          And all the cheating will come undone"

          My apology to the late, great John Lennon too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
    Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

    PayPal clearly doesn't want your business as this PayPal rep talks about http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
    Jason, I'm shocked that the Paypal guy specifically said that selling on the Warrior Forum provides no value and that's the reason Anthony's account was shut down.

    Speechless.. but I see your point, now.

    All WSO sellers need to listen to that MP3.
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by Mick Meaney View Post

      Jason, I'm shocked that the Paypal guy specifically said that selling on the Warrior Forum provides no value and that's the reason Anthony's account was shut down.
      You said it pal.

      That's pretty much the part of Anthony's call that gave me 100% clarity about this ugly situation with Warriors and PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mick Meaney View Post

      Jason, I'm shocked that the Paypal guy specifically said that selling on the Warrior Forum provides no value and that's the reason Anthony's account was shut down.

      Speechless.. but I see your point, now.

      All WSO sellers need to listen to that MP3.
      Mick, that is not what he said - he said Anthony's business model provided no value. He said it in reference to people who are selling products to those who are "Down and Out", taking advantage of them.

      He also referred to Anthony's model of teaching others how to create/sell MMO products creating a circle, like a car dealer selling a car to another car dealer who in turn sells it to another car dealer, etc., etc..

      @Jason Parker - Why should he do that? Not everyone is unhappy with PayPal nor are they all involved in high-risk business ventures.

      It's not a matter of PayPal not wanting anyone's business - they are not going to put themselves in a position where they're at risk because someone is selling products that are essentially get rich quick and actually have a very low success rate.

      I'm more surprised that no one was bothered by Anthony's suggestion of PayPal shutting down the accounts of everyone in the Warrior Forum - thanks for throwing us all to the wolves so to speak Anthony.

      The main point here that needs to be made is that PayPal did NOT shut down his business - no one is forced to use PayPal. If you don't want to use them, that's your business - don't try and take that same decision away from me.
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        That's not how I interpreted the call.

        I'm not going to relisten to the call to quote it but the PayPal guy did say products that are sold on Warrior Forum in general have no value.

        The car dealer analogy was toward products generally sold on Warrior Forum because he says the buyers are the sellers and the sellers are the buyers... As a whole.



        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        Mick, that is not what he said - he said Anthony's business model provided no value. He said it in reference to people who are selling products to those who are "Down and Out", taking advantage of them.

        He also referred to Anthony's model of teaching others how to create/sell MMO products creating a circle, like a car dealer selling a car to another car dealer who in turn sells it to another car dealer, etc., etc..

        @Jason Parker - Why should he do that? Not everyone is unhappy with PayPal nor are they all involved in high-risk business ventures.

        It's not a matter of PayPal not wanting anyone's business - they are not going to put themselves in a position where they're at risk because someone is selling products that are essentially get rich quick and actually have a very low success rate.

        I'm more surprised that no one was bothered by Anthony's suggestion of PayPal shutting down the accounts of everyone in the Warrior Forum - thanks for throwing us all to the wolves so to speak Anthony.

        The main point here that needs to be made is that PayPal did NOT shut down his business - no one is forced to use PayPal. If you don't want to use them, that's your business - don't try and take that same decision away from me.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
          Banned
          Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

          That's not how I interpreted the call.

          I'm not going to relisten to the call to quote it but the PayPal guy did say products that are sold on Warrior Forum in general have no value.

          The car dealer analogy was toward products generally sold on Warrior Forum because he says the buyers are the sellers and the sellers are the buyers... As a whole.
          Jason, he did NOT say that and I'm not going to let that go. You can start listening at 6:43 and listen carefully. While he mentioned the buyers coming out of the Warrior Forum, he's talking about Anthony selling a product to people that has them in turn sell the same or similar product to people has no value.
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          • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            Jason, he did NOT say that and I'm not going to let that go. You can start listening at 6:43 and listen carefully. While he mentioned the buyers coming out of the Warrior Forum, he's talking about Anthony selling a product to people that has them in turn sell the same or similar product to people has no value.
            If you're right, then I stand corrected.

            I'm not here to argue.

            We've all been reading the PayPal posts for a long time, so I'm just trying to present possible solutions and ideas.

            I certainly don't want to be canned by PayPal just because I promoted a how to rank on Google product.

            I just wish PayPal would be more clear... Because if they were then obvious rules could be put in place like... No income claims on Warrior Forum.

            PayPal is a mystery to me.
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            • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
              Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

              I certainly don't want to be canned by PayPal just because I promoted a how to rank on Google product.
              Then don't do that.
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              • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                Originally Posted by TestiVar View Post

                Then don't do that.
                That's not the point.

                Point is we shouldn't have to walk on egg shells not knowing whether a certain type of product can get you canned by PayPal.

                Can an SEO product get you canned by PayPal?

                I don't know.

                But how am I supposed to know what I can and can't promote?

                That's why I was saying that it would be cool to have a payment processor who is 100% clear about what you can and can't do in regards to internet marketing products and services.
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                • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
                  Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                  But how am I supposed to know what I can and can't promote?
                  I believe everyone is born with a sense of right and wrong.
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                  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                    Originally Posted by TestiVar View Post

                    I believe everyone is born with a sense of right and wrong.
                    What's right and wrong in the eyes of PayPal is what I want to know. Because what they think is wrong isn't necessarily what I think is wrong. Not all the time.

                    I can stand behind a product with income claims if it's legit. Just because it has income claims and gets shut down by PayPal doesn't mean it was wrong to promote that particular offer.
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                  • Profile picture of the author options
                    Originally Posted by TestiVar View Post

                    I believe everyone is born with a sense of right and wrong.
                    Im going to stick up for jason here, he has clearly gone through paypal's terms and conditions and done everything he can to follow what he thought were there guidelines.

                    He has stated that his customers were happy with the service and i would imagine that his refunds % was low or non exsistant

                    You are not really helping with remarks like this, you seem to know so much about this why not give us all some clarity.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                      That's not the point.

                      Point is we shouldn't have to walk on egg shells not knowing whether a certain type of product can get you canned by PayPal.
                      You don't have to...use someone else if it bothers you.


                      Originally Posted by options View Post

                      Im going to stick up for jason here, he has clearly gone through paypal's terms and conditions and done everything he can to follow what he thought were there guidelines.
                      He couldn't even follow what was said on a recorded phone call, lol. That's why a lot of people get themselves in trouble. They hear and see what they want to hear and see instead of hearing and seeing what actually is.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Cat,
                        You don't have to...use someone else if it bothers you.
                        Ah, but you can't play in the Affiliate Sweepstakes game here without using Paypal. Not as easily, anyway. That's the biggest objection behind a lot of these complaints.


                        Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
                  Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                  But how am I supposed to know what I can and can't promote?.
                  Is there some kind of information before posting that indicates what services may be affected / some sort of duty of care ?

                  In Giggle / adwords many many vendors promote adwords knowing full well the accounts will be closed down, but they never get slammed it's just the bottom feeder that gets shoved under the carpet while the monkey n organ grinder play a melody of love in waiting for the next victim.
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            • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
              Banned
              Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

              If you're right, then I stand corrected.

              I'm not here to argue.

              We've all been reading the PayPal posts for a long time, so I'm just trying to present possible solutions and ideas.

              I certainly don't want to be canned by PayPal just because I promoted a how to rank on Google product.

              I just wish PayPal would be more clear... Because if they were then obvious rules could be put in place like... No income claims on Warrior Forum.

              PayPal is a mystery to me.
              In their Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal lists "Get Rich Quick" products as something that is not allowed.

              MMO products and to a lesser extent, Info products are typically viewed by PayPal as Get Rich Quick - usually because of the sales copy, which is hyped up and makes unrealistic claims.

              I'm not debating whether or not it's true - but anyone creating and selling these types of products needs to understand that they are high-risk. Not just in regards to PayPal, but to regulating agencies as well.

              Come on folks, let's not pretend that we don't know that a high percentage of the people who buy MMO products fail with them. Everyone talks about the high failure rate in IM, so what does that really say about how well or easy these products work as claimed?

              Sure, we can fool ourselves, we can say they didn't take action, we can call them lazy and sleep at night, but it doesn't matter what we think. What matters is that more and more IM is being cracked down on because of the unrealistic claims made.

              PayPal isn't doing this arbitrarily - the CC companies they use and government agencies are forcing them to do it. That's why they are on such a hard push to focus on developing relationships with mainstream businesses as opposed to IM style companies.

              You can go to any payment processor you want, but sooner or later you're going to run out of choices, because sooner or later they're all going to be forced to do what PayPal is doing.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                Sure, we can fool ourselves, we can say they didn't take action, we can call them lazy and sleep at night, but it doesn't matter what we think. What matters is that more and more IM is being cracked down on because of the unrealistic claims made.

                PayPal isn't doing this arbitrarily - the CC companies they use and government agencies are forcing them to do it. That's why they are on such a hard push to focus on developing relationships with mainstream businesses as opposed to IM style companies.


                You can go to any payment processor you want, but sooner or later you're going to run out of choices, because sooner or later they're all going to be forced to do what PayPal is doing.

                "Quoted for truth", as the saying goes.
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              • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                If there's a clear cut solution and answer to the problem them maybe Warrior Forum mods need to step it up and not allow these type of offers run.

                But I do have a hard time believing Allen would knowingly allow these type of offers to run if he were certain that there's a clear cut black and white area.

                This makes me think the line is blurred between what's obviously acceptable and what's obviously unacceptable to processors and govt agencies.

                Because if it were that easy to identify these type of offers then it would be easy to train anyone who approves WSO offers to not let certain types run at all.


                Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                In their Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal lists "Get Rich Quick" products as something that is not allowed.

                MMO products and to a lesser extent, Info products are typically viewed by PayPal as Get Rich Quick - usually because of the sales copy, which is hyped up and makes unrealistic claims.

                I'm not debating whether or not it's true - but anyone creating and selling these types of products needs to understand that they are high-risk. Not just in regards to PayPal, but to regulating agencies as well.

                Come on folks, let's not pretend that we don't know that a high percentage of the people who buy MMO products fail with them. Everyone talks about the high failure rate in IM, so what does that really say about how well or easy these products work as claimed?

                Sure, we can fool ourselves, we can say they didn't take action, we can call them lazy and sleep at night, but it doesn't matter what we think. What matters is that more and more IM is being cracked down on because of the unrealistic claims made.

                PayPal isn't doing this arbitrarily - the CC companies they use and government agencies are forcing them to do it. That's why they are on such a hard push to focus on developing relationships with mainstream businesses as opposed to IM style companies.

                You can go to any payment processor you want, but sooner or later you're going to run out of choices, because sooner or later they're all going to be forced to do what PayPal is doing.
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                • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
                  Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                  Because if it were that easy to identify these type of offers then it would be easy to train anyone who approves WSO offers to not let certain types run at all.
                  It is that easy. I just looked at the first 14 offers. One one was marginally acceptable based on just the headline. Marginal because it asked a question rather than making the promise.
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                  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                    Originally Posted by TestiVar View Post

                    It is that easy. I just looked at the first 14 offers. One one was marginally acceptable based on just the headline. Marginal because it asked a question rather than making the promise.
                    Based on what?

                    Define specifically what makes them unacceptable.

                    Because that's the problem.

                    There's such a lack of clarity.
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                • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                  If there's a clear cut solution and answer to the problem them maybe Warrior Forum mods need to step it up and not allow these type of offers run.

                  But I do have a hard time believing Allen would knowingly allow these type of offers to run if he were certain that there's a clear cut black and white area.

                  This makes me think the line is blurred between what's obviously acceptable and what's obviously unacceptable to processors and govt agencies.

                  Because if it were that easy to identify these type of offers then it would be easy to train anyone who approves WSO offers to not let certain types run at all.
                  They're not that easy to spot - so PayPal looks at the underlying metrics to identify them statistically before slapping a set of human eyes on them.

                  They look at:
                  1. Unusual Sales Activity
                  2. Refund Rates
                  3. Chargeback Rate
                  4. Bank Reversal Rate
                  5. Dispute Rate

                  Assume you go along earning a couple of hundred dollars a month from various promotional activities while you create an MMO product.

                  You do all the pre-launch stuff...get your affiliates lined up and then launch day arrives.

                  Over the next 24 hours you do $10K in sales (flagged), 10% Refund Rate (flagged), 31 Disputes (flagged).

                  Now PayPal is alert and having someone on staff take a look at it.

                  What do they see? The great big Red and Blue headlines/taglines, the promises of overnight wealth and success and...

                  They freeze the account.

                  They look at the seller - not the advertising media...the WF is the media - not the seller (although I'll leave any legal issues for Brian Kindsvater to comment on if he wishes to).

                  The PayPal Rep on the recording made a similar comment when Anthony suggest they shut down the WF and W+ - they are not the seller and not responsible for the efficacy of the product. In this case the rep said Anthony was - not his affiliates or Mike Lantz.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Anton Nadilo
                    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                    They're not that easy to spot - so PayPal looks at the underlying metrics to identify them statistically before slapping a set of human eyes on them.

                    They look at:
                    1. Unusual Sales Activity
                    2. Refund Rates
                    3. Chargeback Rate
                    4. Bank Reversal Rate
                    5. Dispute Rate

                    Assume you go along earning a couple of hundred dollars a month from various promotional activities while you create an MMO product.

                    You do all the pre-launch stuff...get your affiliates lined up and then launch day arrives.

                    Over the next 24 hours you do $10K in sales (flagged), 10% Refund Rate (flagged), 31 Disputes (flagged).

                    Now PayPal is alert and having someone on staff take a look at it.

                    What do they see? The great big Red and Blue headlines/taglines, the promises of overnight wealth and success and...

                    They freeze the account.

                    They look at the seller - not the advertising media...the WF is the media - not the seller (although I'll leave any legal issues for Brian Kindsvater to comment on if he wishes to).

                    The PayPal Rep on the recording made a similar comment when Anthony suggest they shut down the WF and W+ - they are not the seller and not responsible for the efficacy of the product. In this case the rep said Anthony was - not his affiliates or Mike Lantz.
                    Mike,

                    You have nailed it on the head!

                    There are certain triggers or metrics that PayPal are using to monitor the accounts and whether we like to admit or not it is clear that Anthony's launch triggered some of those metrcis in PayPal's algorithim. (and he is a good guy too!!)

                    Warriors need to learn that there are things we need to do to ensure we minimise the risk of these things happening and there are actions and steps that can be undertaken to eliminate a large chunk of the risk we all face on a day to day basis from a PayPal SLAP!

                    I think we are all dreaming if we think some magical payment processiing tooth fairy will drop the perfect provider into our laps that does not care about their risk exposure and business fundamnetals and they say go for gold Warriors...sell crap, get 10% refunds...make outlandish claims and misrepresent the truth...we don't care!!

                    Hey...I know most of us operate so far from this reality it is not funny however it is hard to shake the perception and stigma cast on the many by those unscrupulous few...

                    cheers

                    Anton
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      • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
        The problem here is not the payment processor...

        The fact of the matter is that the WSO forum - like some
        other places on the Internet - has a lot of dubious and
        often low value products with totally B.S. claims.

        That's going to get the alarm bells ringing within the
        risk department of ANY payment processor.

        The solution is NOT to change payment processor.

        It's to have a solid business model in the first place that
        consistently adds real value to customers - and doesn't
        provide the payment processor with excessive risk.

        Dedicated to mutual success,

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        • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          WSOs still have a bad rep outside this forum. I don't care what people say about them, many of them are indeed shady.
          They even sound and look shady to most of the people in the forum.

          I went through and found a dozen that specifically made claims they they didn't spam, break TOSes, break the law, etc. I bought them.

          All of them did spam, break a TOS, break the law or advocated breaking the law. Every single one did something shady. No exceptions.

          I'm sure there must be some exceptions, but the reputation is earned. It isn't a false reputation. The mess needs to be cleaned up.
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      • Profile picture of the author erichammer
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        I'm more surprised that no one was bothered by Anthony's suggestion of PayPal shutting down the accounts of everyone in the Warrior Forum - thanks for throwing us all to the wolves so to speak Anthony.
        Actually, he has a very good point. If PayPal simply dumped anyone who works in IM en masse, we'd see movement to a new payment processor and everyone would be happier and less worried. By randomly picking off one or the other, they just create frustration for those people.

        What really surprises me is the business about not even being able to make a purchase using PayPal. I mean that's just crazy.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
          Banned
          Originally Posted by erichammer View Post

          Actually, he has a very good point. If PayPal simply dumped anyone who works in IM en masse, we'd see movement to a new payment processor and everyone would be happier and less worried. By randomly picking off one or the other, they just create frustration for those people.

          What really surprises me is the business about not even being able to make a purchase using PayPal. I mean that's just crazy.
          Not everyone in IM sells high-risk products, so why would they? If you understand the risks and take steps to mitigate it appropriately, you don't need to worry - you just need to make sure you have a contingency plan in place.

          You should be equally worried if you're using any of the other popular payment processors - they're all headed in the same direction.

          People like Anthony get frustrated because he launched this incredibly high-risk business model with his eyes closed. He must have known that there was a risk of his account being terminated and yet he had no backup plan ready to to put into action.

          He blames PayPal for shutting down his business, but that is clearly not true. He was the underlying cause of his business being shut down, due to poor Risk Management.
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          • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            Not everyone in IM sells high-risk products, so why would they?
            Ditto.

            Paypal is a "business partner" to most of us, and I really hope they can see the value in the vast majority of IM world.
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      • Profile picture of the author agc
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        The main point here that needs to be made is that PayPal did NOT shut down his business - no one is forced to use PayPal. If you don't want to use them, that's your business - don't try and take that same decision away from me.
        Yeah and nobody is forced to buy gasoline either. :rolleyes:

        I personally would LOVE to see some consortiums forming that offer alternatives to paypal and I would love to see some venues that offer those alternative and prohibit paypal.

        And to use your logic, not being allowed to use paypal on WF doens't meant you can't use it. Nobody is forcing you to make money on WF.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          Yeah and nobody is forced to buy gasoline either. :rolleyes:
          I think you missed his point entirely. Yes, no one is forced to use gasoline. For that reason if you choose to use gasoline then don't turn around and complain about it. You made the choice to use it and no one is holding a gun to your head saying you must use it. If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen...

          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          I personally would LOVE to see some consortiums forming that offer alternatives to paypal and I would love to see some venues that offer those alternative and prohibit paypal.
          As I stated above, there is already an alternative to Paypal built specifically for IM. Clickbank does it all. If you are not happy with Clickbank then you won't be happy with any other payment processor built specifically for the IM industry. They would all have to follow the same sort of rules as the risk is so high.
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        • Profile picture of the author sadneck
          Exactly. We could all plug in our Chevy Volts and never have to use a drop of gas again... hahah..

          Someone mentioned clickbank as an alternative. I lol this. Clickbank has rejected a number of my products due to the fact that "SEO products are not something that can be cleanly measured." And I am not new to clickbank. I have had 4 accounts approved with themmaking $1000s a year, but lately they have been rejecting my products.

          Any other suggestions?


          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          Yeah and nobody is forced to buy gasoline either. :rolleyes:

          I personally would LOVE to see some consortiums forming that offer alternatives to paypal and I would love to see some venues that offer those alternative and prohibit paypal.

          And to use your logic, not being allowed to use paypal on WF doens't meant you can't use it. Nobody is forcing you to make money on WF.
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by sadneck View Post

            Someone mentioned clickbank as an alternative. I lol this. Clickbank has rejected a number of my products due to the fact that "SEO products are not something that can be cleanly measured." And I am not new to clickbank. I have had 4 accounts approved with themmaking $1000s a year, but lately they have been rejecting my products.
            There in lies the problem. No payment processors are going to want to touch products like that where results can't be 'cleanly measured'. That includes a whole heap of IM products and that is why so many people are having problems with IM products. There is no measurable value.

            If Clickbank won't have them then I would seriously consider changing tact because it's very unlikely anyone else will. Clickbank are probably one of the most lenient payment processors around when it comes to IM products so if you can't conform to their rules and regulations then I don't like your luck anywhere else. The problem is not in the rules of the payment processors it is in the product you are selling. I am not saying there is no value in SEO or what you are doing is wrong but in the eyes of a payment processor, it is very hard for them to support a product that has no tangible or measurable value.

            They are not going to change their rules anytime soon, in fact they are likely to get even worse as times goes on, so the best solution is to bite the bullet and start thinking about other business models. That's the reality.
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            • Profile picture of the author sadneck
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              There in lies the problem. No payment processors are going to want to touch products like that where results can't be 'cleanly measured'. That includes a whole heap of IM products and that is why so many people are having problems with IM products. There is no measurable value.
              No measurable value? can't be cleanly measured? I put their words on here, not to suggest that they are right, but to suggest that they have no idea what they are talking about. The reality is, IM Products, (specifically SEO products,) can do what they claim to do. Article Marketing is an effective vehicle for driving a site through the SERPS. So are other methods. I just recently joined a society that after buying a few PR 4 homepage links, I moved from page 15 to page 4 on a high competition keyword in 4 days.

              IM Products work and are measurable, but no one wants to tick off Mother Google. So IM Products, (SEO products,) are seen as dirty... Its a shame.

              Because as IMers we all know it is soooo much better to let the world naturally find out how amazing your product and service is... (that was sarcasm by the way.) :rolleyes:
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              • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                Originally Posted by sadneck View Post

                No measurable value? can't be cleanly measured?

                The reality is, IM Products, (specifically SEO products,) can do what they claim to do.

                I just recently joined a society that after buying a few PR 4 homepage links, I moved from page 15 to page 4 on a high competition keyword in 4 days.
                "I moved from page 15 to page 4 - where still nobody finds me, but at least I feel better about the money I spent."

                I finished that sentence so it sorta makes sense...

                Here's the bottom line...PayPal is not going to bend over backwards trying to determine someone's rationale for explaining away metrics that only register on the "feels good meter".

                They're going to use their metrics, and those metrics are based on their experience and their risk/reward algos.

                And if they determine they no longer want to support 'dream merchants' all the huffing and puffing is not going to sway them, although it may strengthen their resolve to eliminate the noise.

                Now, am I saying page 4 is no better than page 15 on the serps? No, what I'm alluding to is that if your ROI for the move is imaginary don't expect a business like PayPal to want to participate in your fantasies. Because as a HUGE player on the web, PayPal/eBay knows a lot about the game. Including what's coming down the pike.

                It might even be a good idea to ditch the rose colored glasses and pay a bit more attention to the changes. Because things are changing.

                ~Bill
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            • Profile picture of the author agc
              Originally Posted by WillR View Post

              There in lies the problem. No payment processors are going to want to touch products like that where results can't be 'cleanly measured'. That includes a whole heap of IM products and that is why so many people are having problems with IM products. There is no measurable value.

              If Clickbank won't have them then I would seriously consider changing tact because it's very unlikely anyone else will. Clickbank are probably one of the most lenient payment processors around when it comes to IM products so if you can't conform to their rules and regulations then I don't like your luck anywhere else. The problem is not in the rules of the payment processors it is in the product you are selling. I am not saying there is no value in SEO or what you are doing is wrong but in the eyes of a payment processor, it is very hard for them to support a product that has no tangible or measurable value.

              They are not going to change their rules anytime soon, in fact they are likely to get even worse as times goes on, so the best solution is to bite the bullet and start thinking about other business models. That's the reality.
              This is the ENTIRE problem.

              It's NONE OF CLICKBANK'S DAMN BUSINESS if your product is "measurable".

              The ONLY thing that is PayPal's or Clickbank's business is whether your customers are happy, whether you're refunding customers who aren't happy, and whether PayPal/Clickbank has a risk of charge backs that aren't covered by your uncollected balance.

              Paypal is not the morality police. Neither is Clickbank. It is not their place to police the morality of your business.

              It is their place to provide a marketplace that is equally available to all parties consistent with the actual laws that exist, and for them to process payments (and deliver electronic product) and to manage their financial risk in doing so.

              If the real police feel that a product is illegal, the real police should address it. But posses and private police not answerable to the general public are not the (right) answer.

              I find it truly astonishing that all the lessons learned from history seem to be completely lost on everyone. Wikipedia on the Coal and Iron Police
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              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                Banned
                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                It's NONE OF CLICKBANK'S DAMN BUSINESS if your product is "measurable".
                And that's where you're wrong - ClickBank, not the product owner or affiliate is the only "SELLER" of the product.

                They have right to make sure that what they're selling is legal, measurable and not violating law/regulations.
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                • Profile picture of the author agc
                  Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                  And that's where you're wrong - ClickBank, not the product owner or affiliate is the only "SELLER" of the product.

                  They have right to make sure that what they're selling is legal, measurable and not violating law/regulations.
                  Ah yeah. I was initially thinking in terms of PayPal and added in Clickbank as another example... without really thinking through the difference.

                  However, clickbank could relatively easily fix that by making the individual product owners the sellers. It seems kinda stupid not to.

                  Other than the fact that they charge stupid fat fees for doing it. Maybe they make more money by crying about all the risk, while privately they know how little actual risk there really is. Kinda like the insurance business?
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                It's NONE OF CLICKBANK'S DAMN BUSINESS if your product is "measurable".
                Seriously? WTF.

                Clickbank is in the business of selling products. If yours is one of them, it's their business, doofus.

                I swear, it's like people say crap without even knowing what the words mean.
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              • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                This is the ENTIRE problem.

                It's NONE OF CLICKBANK'S DAMN BUSINESS if your product is "measurable".
                Of course it is.

                If they have no way of determining the intrinsic value of a product, they can't even make a guess as to the return rate, etc.

                It's their rep on the line when they accept a product into their marketplace.
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              • Profile picture of the author davezan
                Originally Posted by agc View Post

                Paypal is not the morality police. Neither is Clickbank. It is not their place to police the morality of your business.
                While I realize some people feel that way:

                https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2012/0...ertain-erotica

                Some feedback we're getting is a belief that PayPal is forcing its moral beliefs on others and restricting people's right to free speech. We can tell you with 100 percent conviction that this is not our intention. While we understand that people don't always agree with our policies, this decision has nothing to do with our personal views on the content or any desire to limit free-speech rights. It has everything to do with running a sound business and complying with our legal responsibilities.

                PayPal is a payments company. The right to use PayPal's service is not the same as the right to speak.
                It's fine to disagree or even believe otherwise, of course. No one can or even
                has to restrict that, though it usually does not help to entertain beliefs based
                mainly on passionate feeling rather than logical thinking. Usually, anyway.

                While it's tempting to debate that point, I'm mainly here to understand and to
                usually help understand certain things so we can learn how to improve on our
                own.
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                • Profile picture of the author agc
                  Originally Posted by davezan View Post

                  While I realize some people feel that way (re PayPal being the morality police):

                  https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2012/0...ertain-erotica
                  Gee, a company's PR department posted it on their blog. Well then it MUST be true. :rolleyes:

                  Honestly, I'm not speaking from impassioned outrage, I'm speaking from a position of careful thought.

                  I've been following the developments around this issue since the early 90's on CompuServe, back when the "common carrier" status was considered when determining if CompuServe was liable for material posted by users.

                  The previaling wisdom at the time was that, as a "common carrier", compuserve was an empty pipe... what comes in one end goes out the other. Therefore, the liability is with the sender and the receiver.

                  But then AOL insisted on policing "morality" on their network, and the shenanigans started.

                  I think it should be very simple: If you a service provider offers universal access without moral judgement or censorship, then they GET TO BE immune from claims arising from ANY content. But if they take it upon their morally superior selves to pass moral judgement or to censor, then they ASSUME FULL liability for ALL content.

                  Apple wants to censor the "shake the baby" app? Fine. Now, when my panties twist up my ass because I saw a "birth control reminder" app, Apple gets to inherit full liability for offending me. Apple doesn't want to inherit liability for offending me? Simple: Provide universal access, to the fullest extent possible under the law.

                  If Apple feels that an app is in violation of the law, they should have to do the same thing the police have to do: Get a court order to have it removed.

                  I have been watching this, and thinking about this, for a long time. A long long time, going on 20 years now. It's not a knee jerk reaction. It's a carefully evaluated, well researched, very carefully considered position.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
          Banned
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          Yeah and nobody is forced to buy gasoline either. :rolleyes:
          No, actually no one is forced to buy gasoline - you choose to. There are always options - take a bus, a cab, ride a bike, buy a hybrid vehicle, etc., etc.

          If you're from the US, I can guarantee you that I pay twice per gallon of gas that you do. When I choose to drive, I don't complain about the price of gas. Most of the time, weather permitting, I choose to walk - my office is only a mile away.

          I personally would LOVE to see some consortiums forming that offer alternatives to paypal and I would love to see some venues that offer those alternative and prohibit paypal.
          The problem is that PayPal is the only online payment processor that is truly global. Most of the others (excluding regular merchant accounts) only work in with US residents.

          And to use your logic, not being allowed to use paypal on WF doens't meant you can't use it. Nobody is forcing you to make money on WF.
          I rarely make any money on the WF these days. It's not about me...it's about taking the only reasonable choice away from up and coming marketers around the world.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
    An alternative option could be to direct traffic to your sales page instead of including a buy button directly in the thread... Then all your sales are made from your own site and not from WF.

    But that might screw up the conversion tracking, maybe.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tiffiney Cowan
      Originally Posted by Mick Meaney View Post

      An alternative option could be to direct traffic to your sales page instead of including a buy button directly in the thread... Then all your sales are made from your own site and not from WF.
      Thanks Mick! That was exactly what I was thinking!

      I launched my business in September of 2011 and all of my early WSOs were directed to my site and then to paypal. I added a buy button to my current WSO, but after listening to the call I'm thinking my original plan may be the safer way to go.

      By "screwing up conversions" do you mean the double-click to buy may lower the number of actual purchases?
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  • Profile picture of the author Harvey M
    I disagree completely. You're only going to get your PP banned if you break their TOS. Know your rights and do the homework. You won't have a problem. Banning it completely would prevent a number of sales opportunities. PP, whether you like it or not, is here to stay. People just need to learn how to avoid getting stung.
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    • Profile picture of the author options
      Originally Posted by Harvey M View Post

      I disagree completely. You're only going to get your PP banned if you break their TOS. Know your rights and do the homework. You won't have a problem. Banning it completely would prevent a number of sales opportunities. PP, whether you like it or not, is here to stay. People just need to learn how to avoid getting stung.
      Maybe you should try listening to the call...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Harvey M View Post

      You're only going to get your PP banned if you break their TOS.
      Read this thread (and plenty of others like it), Harvey, and see if you still think that. :rolleyes:

      Your comment reminds me of the people who reassure others here that if they don't break the TOS, they won't get their Blogger blogs deleted. It's just as naive.

      You don't begin to appreciate that the ways in which mega-corporations can choose to interpret their own TOS can vary wildly.

      Their behavior can be as erratic, unreasonable, inconsistent and idiosyncratic as they wish.

      They rely (usually but not quite always successfully) on the fact that almost nobody will actually have the time, interest or money to risk suing them.

      And meanwhile people like yourself are sitting there, with very little experience of it, knowing very little about it, quite casually announcing to all the world that "you're only going to get banned if you break the TOS"?! :p

      I'm not trying to be rude to you, but it's clear that you have no real experience of what you're trying to advise others about, here. There's no harm at all in having no experience of it, and nobody will think less of you for that - but it does become a potential problem (for other people), if you try to offer advice on the subject.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tiffiney Cowan
      Originally Posted by Harvey M View Post

      I disagree completely. You're only going to get your PP banned if you break their TOS.
      What part of the TOS did Anthony violate? Listening to the call it sounded like pp made a decision based on their risk equation not based on a violation of the TOS. In the end, they decided that Anthony's business was a risk to them even though it sounded like Anthony took steps to minimize the risks to pp.
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      • Profile picture of the author masmiskun
        Originally Posted by Tiffiney Cowan View Post

        What part of the TOS did Anthony violate? Listening to the call it sounded like pp made a decision based on their risk equation not based on a violation of the TOS. In the end, they decided that Anthony's business was a risk to them even though it sounded like Anthony took steps to minimize the risks to pp.
        i totally agree with this. a few month ago paypal close my account, i don;t know the reason. As far as i know i don't violate their TOS. i got this reply from paypal
        "In order to protect the integrity of the PayPal service, we cannot
        disclose the specific criteria that we use to limit access to accounts.
        For more information on reasons why we limit access to accounts, please
        refer to the 'Closing Accounts and Limiting Account Access' section of
        our User Agreement."
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Tiffiney Cowan View Post

        What part of the TOS did Anthony violate?
        PayPal's opinion was that Anthony's product was an MLM opportunity, which is against the PayPal acceptable use policy.

        Anthony tried to explain that it's not MLM, because only two people get paid on any given sale.

        PayPal tried to explain that the problem isn't how many people get paid, but whether the product has any actual value.

        Basically, while people in the marketing world think the distinguishing aspect of MLM is "residual payments from your downline," the business world thinks the distinguishing aspect is "overpriced product nobody actually wants."
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  • Profile picture of the author Arroway
    Being free of PayPal and the worries - that would be a sight to behold, fellow warriors.
    It's probably my biggest wish for the Internet marketing community to get many more options. This is the future.

    When I opened up a business account at my regular brick and mortar bank, I asked the lady while signing the paperwork: "By the way, since I do business on the Internet, all kinds of things can happen. In principle, I could suddenly get a million people on my website and make 5 or 6 figures. What happens if I suddenly got such a large amount of money flowing into my account? Does the bank get suspicious over such a thing? Do I get into trouble? Any consequences?"
    Her reply was: "No, of course not. When we see this, we just give you a call and ask if this is normal, if what we are seeing is correct or a mistake. That's it."
    I want an online payment processor like this!! They don't care at all! What a dream that would be!
    It's business. We sell ebooks, video, software etc. here on WF, not drugs.

    Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
    Banning PayPal won't solve the problem.

    No other payment processor will be able to tolerate the high refund and chargeback rate either. The refund and chargeback rate is due to false claims and products that use or teach unethical practices including spamming blogs, spamming forums & forum profiles, buying and selling Google and Microsoft incentive coupons, trickery, scamming, spamming, etc.

    The solution is to clean up the mess. Stop advocating all of the unethical practices throughout the Warrior Forum that leads people to think that it is acceptable to sell the crap that is sold on the WSO forum.

    PayPal has been extremely lenient compared to any merchant account provider. They have a merchant account provider themselves though that they need to keep happy with a low chargeback rate. They can only do that if they buffer it with their own refund and dispute process AND if they ban customers who are engaged in shady business practices or do business where shady business practices are tolerated.

    That is just reality.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    So you're calling guys like E Brian Rose shady? He got banned by PayPal for teaching people how to make Google news type sites.

    You guys who think you have to be doing something shady to get canned by PayPal need to quit lying to yourselves and wake up.
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    • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      So you're calling guys like E Brian Rose shady? He got banned by PayPal for teaching people how to make Google news type sites.
      I don't know anything about E Brian Rose or his products.

      But your description of what he sold sounds shady to me. I'm sure it does to PayPal and most of the world too. I'll bet it also sounds shady to Google and their brand management team at Mark Monitor.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mick Meaney View Post

      I'm shocked that the Paypal guy specifically said that selling on the Warrior Forum provides no value
      He didn't actually say that, Mick. Listen again.

      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      the PayPal guy did say products that are sold on Warrior Forum in general have no value.
      No, he didn't say that. Listen again.

      Seriously, guys, what's the point in posting the thing here and discussing it, if you're going to listen to it and then say "the PayPal guy said" and misquote him?!
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        He didn't actually say that, Mick. Listen again.



        No, he didn't say that. Listen again.

        Seriously, guys, what's the point in posting the thing here and discussing it, if you're going to listen to it and then say "the PayPal guy said" and misquote him?!
        Lol.. I am subject to human error.

        That's just the ay I heard it.

        If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Whatever's clever.
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    • Profile picture of the author harrydog
      I dont think that it is the payment processor problem per say. The problem is that the WSO forum has become so hypey as its so competitive an people feel the need the make earnings claims for their products so they can be seen in the sea of offers.

      I have taken a screen shot of a random page on the WSO forum and within just the browser window that was viewable there were 6 offers with income earning claims showing large numbers with $ signs

      I have blurred all the text out and names etc and just highlight the numbers. I am not sure if I should post it up as I don't want to break any TOS or offend anybody. Do you think I should post it up?

      I was quite surprised when I started analysing this an I can see why paypal et al have a problem with some of the claims.

      If you think about it if you use any autoresponder then the subject lines would be automatically marked as spam as they would contain $,£ 5666 {}[]!! and other symbols. I personally would also fall foul of this as my WSO has [FREE] in the title.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Did Anthony throw the whole Warrior Forum under the bus @ 12.40??? WTF?
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso View Post

      Did Anthony throw the whole Warrior Forum under the bus @ 12.40??? WTF?
      Sure did, along with W+ and similar services. I had trouble hearing the recording at this point, but I think the lifetime income on 2 of his accounts were $12K and $100 respectively.

      Thanks Anthony....
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        Sure did, along with W+ and similar services. I had trouble hearing the recording at this point, but I think the lifetime income on 2 of his accounts were $12K and $100 respectively.

        Thanks Anthony....
        Yep ... I said thanks Anthony when I heard that. Not everyone has his kind of business model and it was his kind of business model specifically that caused his problems with Paypal. Very nice of him :rolleyes:
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi,

          If you're interested in maintaining your Paypal account as opposed to just blowing off about Paypal or looking elsewhere, I think that it's worth listening to what the Paypal rep actually says, understanding it and where he's coming from (IE put yourself in their shoes) and reading between the lines a little and seeing if you can do as much as possible to stay under (or avoid) their radar.

          In the recording the Paypal rep explains the 'circle' concept - people buy products from WSO sellers (because Paypal see what people are buying and where from) which purport to teach buyers how to be in business, then the businesses that they choose to create often end up revolving around more WSOs telling others how to be 'in business' - IE selling WSOs.

          It seems pretty obvious to me from hearing this that things would be a lot less 'circular' and risky (in terms of being closed down by Paypal) if products on 'selling WSOs' weren't present in the WSO forum and if Paypal were seeing people buying WSOs with money in their Paypal account, then bringing in profits into their Paypal account from outside the WSO forum and from businesses that didn't revolve around teaching 'how to be in business'.

          In other words, what the Paypal rep is saying is that (paraphrased) 'if everyone is making money from teaching 'how to be in business' where are all of the new businesses that this activity spawns? Currently, they are also in the WSO forum teaching 'how to be in business.''

          The Paypal rep says (direct quote from 9.41, emphasis by me) -

          'The people who are coming to you are usually down on their luck. They're trying to capitalise on little investment and trying to (you know) make it big. I mean, how often do you actually see that happen in reality? I mean we can go through all of these different forums and look at all of these different merchants who offer the same thing, but in reality, the only people that's making money are people who are selling a product that doesn't really work. So that's where we see the risk. There's no (muffled) value for us and no way for us to capitalise or even justify keeping this type of business operational within Paypal.'

          So what he is saying is that those 'how to be in business' products aren't actually teaching how to be in business, they are teaching 'how to also sell products that teach 'how to be in business'' like the seller does and within that circle, no one is actually really in business, they are just selling to each other with the minority making a killing and the majority failing and too many of them refunding, chargebacking and complaining of being ripped off in the process.

          His point seems logical to me.

          Anthony's counter arguments weren't particularly convincing - (from 10.23) he talks about the testimonials and it being an open forum and how his products have 'changed peoples' lives'. The Paypal rep points out that these testimonials, whether true or not, are biased and are not going to sway the decision.

          Anthony then explains that what he means is that he has proof that he's not taking advantage of people and mentions 'if you've read anything about me online' and how he's had bad things happen to him and that his goal is to help other people become successful and 'not at their cost'...

          Not very convincing in my opinion. There's probably a Paypal rep forum somewhere where they play that call to train their reps in the kind of circular logic and self-deception which develops from these circular business practices.:rolleyes:

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Yep ... I said thanks Anthony when I heard that. Not everyone has his kind of business model and it was his kind of business model specifically that caused his problems with Paypal. Very nice of him :rolleyes:
          Sounds a bit like this.
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            In other words, what the Paypal rep is saying is that (paraphrased) 'if everyone is making money from teaching 'how to be in business' where are all of the new businesses that this activity spawns? Currently, they are also in the WSO forum teaching 'how to be in business.''
            What you are describing is a pyramid scheme.

            But I don't see that at all. If you teach someone how to sell a WSO who says the WSO has to be about selling a WSO?

            Perusing through the Special Offers forum I do not see that happening.

            Does this mean Amazon should ban books on how to self-publish? Or books on how to make money using Amazon? Or how to use a Kindle?

            I've purchased quite a few WSOs over the years, back to day #1 when the Special Offer forum was created, and implemented different ideas and tips most often on my websites - on topics that have nothing to do with IM.

            What this low-level PayPal employee said, ignorantly exercising his ability to feel powerfully important by destroying someone's livelihood, was offensive.

            And so was Anthony's response trying to save himself by throwing the entire forum and W+ under the bus.

            It is easy enough to criticize the forum, or particular WSOs, but let me tell you this:

            The offers you find here are head and shoulders better than what you find on other sites. There is a substantial financial barrier to entry and buyers have the opportunity to comment on the forum about the product or service and to report problems to a moderator.

            Instead of virtually guaranteed fraudulent scams involving HYIPs, making money clicking emails, filling out surveys, and the like, here you find unique scripts, marketers on top of the very latest opportunities like Pinterest, and top notch tactics and advice.

            Nothing is perfect, and there are a lot of varying offers.

            But instead of supporting uninformed comments from some rep to protect a PayPal account, I suggest a different tactic: protecting PayPal accounts by educating PayPal reps about quality products marketed here and how the power of the marketplace can weed out any problems.

            .
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            • Profile picture of the author derrickp
              I wish this was true. The WSO section is a virtual landfill with a few gold nuggets mixed in, not how it used to be. This isn't a reflection on the WarriorForum owners, Mods etc. They do what they can. It also isn't a reflection of most members of the forum.

              The downfall started when people started "business models" around pumping out WSO after WSO, then teaching others to do the same and then WarriorPlus just magnified the problem like a snowball rolling down hill.

              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

              The offers you find here are head and shoulders better than what you find on other sites. There is a substantial financial barrier to entry and buyers have the opportunity to comment on the forum about the product or service and to report problems to a moderator.
              Signature

              Slime England

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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Brian,

              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

              What you are describing is a pyramid scheme....

              [snip]

              ....But instead of supporting uninformed comments from some rep to protect a PayPal account, I suggest a different tactic: protecting PayPal accounts by educating PayPal reps about quality products marketed here and how the power of the marketplace can weed out any problems.
              I think we just have different perspectives on this.

              I agree with derrickp's response -

              I wish this was true. The WSO section is a virtual landfill with a few gold nuggets mixed in, not how it used to be. This isn't a reflection on the WarriorForum owners, Mods etc. They do what they can. It also isn't a reflection of most members of the forum.

              The downfall started when people started "business models" around pumping out WSO after WSO, then teaching others to do the same and then WarriorPlus just magnified the problem like a snowball rolling down hill.
              I've seen countless examples of ridiculously dishonest/misleading offers. Two quick examples off the top of my head -

              a) higher priced 'one-on-one coaching' that consists purely of camtasia videos

              b) a membership site where you can 'build a huge list' in order to promote products and make money from people 'looking to buy products like yours'. But you can only 'message' these people through the system itself (that's the 'list') and the only recipients of the messages are also other people buying into the site for the same reason - to send offers - and initially no mention of the fact (until it was dragged out unwillingly by people asking questions) that in order to participate you also have to agree to continually receive other peoples' offers via the system - therefore if you end up being able to send offers to 2000 people multiple times a day, you also have an inbox with 2000 x multiple offers per day.

              Stuff like that.

              Without wanting to get political, we live in 'interesting' times. The public in general are under an unusual amount of pressure from TPTB. So are Paypal.

              It's clear that it's not just 'biz op' related info product IMers who are being targeted by Paypal although it appears that in this particular case they gave the website 'a few days to achieve compliance.'

              If I come onto Paypal's radar I will also try to educate the Paypal rep about why I shouldn't be on their radar. But until that day, I'll concentrate on avoiding their radar in the first place.
              Signature


              Roger Davis

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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                Without wanting to get political, we live in 'interesting' times. The public in general are under an unusual amount of pressure from TPTB. So are Paypal.

                It's clear that it's not just 'biz op' related info product IMers who are being targeted by Paypal although it appears that in this particular case they gave the website 'a few days to achieve compliance.'

                If I come onto Paypal's radar I will also try to educate the Paypal rep about why I shouldn't be on their radar. But until that day, I'll concentrate on avoiding their radar in the first place.
                And it's not just Paypal that is banning biz op offers. Youtube, Squidoo, Hubpages, other payment processors like 2CO and even Clickbank is pretending to clean up it's marketplace in compliance with FTC regulations.

                I also agree that the WSO section is a landfill filled with dubious offers, but I also agree with kindsvater that there are many amazing and valuable offers. What it boils down to is what the buyer is looking for and it's no secret that many buyers are looking for get rich quick schemes.

                I personally don't buy that type of offer or sell it and don't want anyone telling me or banning a processor that I use because of their own difficulties with that processor.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            in reality, the only people that's making money are people who are selling a product that doesn't really work.
            Products that don't work are cheaper to produce and easier to sell. Most people who don't care about their customers (because, you know, it's all just a numbers game) will ultimately converge on that "solution" to the problem where building a real business takes three to five years.

            But discipline is doing what needs to be done even when it is not convenient.
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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            • Profile picture of the author David Keith
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              But discipline is doing what needs to be done even when it is not convenient.
              That advice is not very convenient for most people. That sounds like something most are not going to be willing to do unless/until forced to do so.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

                That advice is not very convenient for most people.
                And therefore, the undisciplined among them will not take it.
                Signature
                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Quentin
    If your business gets huge number of visitors and you deal in any type of finances you are going to get complaints

    There are so many huge companies that use Paypal and millions who use it everyday with no problems.

    It wont matter what payment processor you use you will have problems when people push the envelope.

    In the end Paypal provides a service and if you don't like it go somewhere else but certainly don't through out the baby with the bathwater.

    Q
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  • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
    Sure, we can fool ourselves, we can say they didn't take action, we can call them lazy and sleep at night, but it doesn't matter what we think. What matters is that more and more IM is being cracked down on because of the unrealistic claims made.

    PayPal isn't doing this arbitrarily - the CC companies they use and government agencies are forcing them to do it. That's why they are on such a hard push to focus on developing relationships with mainstream businesses as opposed to IM style companies.

    You can go to any payment processor you want, but sooner or later you're going to run out of choices, because sooner or later they're all going to be forced to do what PayPal is doing.
    Twice quoted for truth.
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  • Interesting stuff.
    Paypal has become such a major player in online purchasing and payments.
    Its an interesting theory to ban it but there would have to be a very very strong competitor to go against it and at the moment I just don't think there is.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    When Anthony threw Mike Lantz under the bus I thought it was a little dirty.

    However, look at many of the WSOs of the Day and you'll see a bunch of these high risk offers Big Mike is talking about.

    I have to admit that seeing WSO Pro pound the WSO of the Day everyday and seeing alot of these high risk offers makes you think that they're ok. They must be, right?

    So I can somewhat see Anthony's point. It's almost encouraged to have a high risk offer, you see Warrior Forum approving them, you see Mike Lantz blasting them out in emails, so why not think they're acceptable with PayPal?

    I'm not going to draw this little debate out. I'm just going to end with this... Find some solutions and do them please because all of our butts are on the line... And you only get a small fraction of the sales without PayPal when selling on Warrior Forum.

    I for one enjoy making good money with PayPal and am only looking for solutions that will guide us to do the right thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Genycis
    Wow... very informative and interesting debate on this thread... enjoyed the read from all of you. I've been using Paypal for years with my sites, but then again, they're not actually sites related to selling IM products to IMers looking to learn the ropes. However, I wonder if Paypal would slam the hammer on my next project that relates to saving money (not thru IMing but in grocery shopping).

    I actually wrote an ebook about my experiences and how I've saved money and I am moments away from launching my site, which I could probably say would be my first actual IM type site, versus the sites I have already which are merchant sites. However, I wonder if this would fall under "get rich quick" though it actually is catering to saving money. I'm not trying to make any claims to which I didn't do myself at all, but not sure if it falls into that category. I'm sorta afraid now to launch it after reading this thread as I don't want to have my Paypal stomped especially since my two merchant sites use it. I can understand where the grey area on some of the TOS may come to play which sparks debates like this... they give you a general definition, and then if they want to slam the gavel on you, they'll state that general definition and say that you broke their TOS. While I know they can't list every single type of IM site that is and is not allowed within their TOS, the definitions could be a bit more black and white, instead of a grey that they turn black or white depending on what they feel your site does.

    Guess I'll try the ebook site anyway and hope for the best... maybe I won't get slammed since it relates to grocery shopping and not "Make $25,000 a Minute on ClickBank Today By Doing These 3 Things Now".
    Signature
    Genycis
    -- Absorbing & implementing. Need hip hop beats for your business needs? Hit me up!
    -- Posting my experiences and so forth with my own blog.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    First, I am not for banning an ultra popular payment system like Paypal from the forum.

    The underlying reason paypal is so popular among internet "businesses" is because there is almost no restrictions to get started. There is no cost, and very few initial checks on you or your business.

    More traditional payment processors have lots of upfront checks before they will allow you to use their services. Many check your criminal background, your credit history, and many other factors. They ask lots upfront of questions about your business to decide right from the start if they want to take on you as a client based on lots of risk factors.

    For paypal its almost the exact opposite. The only real upfront checks they do is to see that your not from an ultra-high risk country. If your not, you are free to go. They are almost totally reactive in how they manage risk unlike traditional merchant providers who are almost totally proactive from the start.

    This low barrier of entry becomes a magnet for those folks with lower moral convictions. That is certainly not to say anyone who uses paypal is a scammer, but it is to say that a fairly big percentage of scammers use paypal. That fact is beginning to be noticed by paypal more and more, so they are adapting to it as any business should.

    As for another payment processor alternative. You are either going to need to raise the stakes for all...such as everyone getting a real merchant account. This would instantly drive thousands out of the selling marketplace. Not necessarily a bad thing, but definitely a big thing.

    or you would have to find another processor that has a very low barrier of entry and is willing to take on the inherent risks that come with the MMO and IM industries. Truthfully, there is not another major player even very close to ready to take that on at this point. Most are in fact moving away from the risks the IM industry brings.

    So what your left with is an option of lots of people using lots of different payment processors essentially spreading the risks of the industry over a wider group. The major problem with that is that its just not very feasible to have systems like jv zoo or warrior plus integrate lots of payment processors and systems.

    They choose paypal and a couple AR services...if you don't like that, go somewhere else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Venturetothetop
    Unpopular as this may sound, I totally understand Paypal's point here.

    There are so many people who think they can make a quick buck via this forum that it is filled with tons of useless crap. We have to accept that.

    I'm not saying for a minute it is all crap - of course not, I spend time here so I do see value, but we do have a problem on this Forum.

    Part of the problem is Warrior Forum refuses to police it's own, so you leave little choice for companies like Paypal.

    I would say 50% of my purchases here have been steller, where I would have even paid more, but equally 50% have been diabolical. That is an ultra high percentage of crap.

    Just 2 weeks ago, even after doing my due diligence I made a purchase which ended up being a scam. I was not the only one he scammed either, we all wrote on his thread about his bad service and his refusal to refund us.

    What happened? The posts got deleted.... so now not only does he still refuse to refund, but he can scam others.

    Of course, I opened a Paypal dispute and of course Paypal have a bad image of WF.

    There is a big disconnect here.. and as mentioned in the call, Paypal has to pick up the pieces.

    I'm NOT a WF hater.....but I am openly ready to admit we have a problem here, a problem which stops me buying anything unless I really know or trust the seller.

    Actually, even a very big name has tons of negative reviews on his recent WSO because he stopped replying to support requests where users could not get access to his product. I'm talking over a week not replying to them even though he bumped the WSO. I'm guessing all these people complained to Paypal too... I would... This type of behaviour gives all us sellers a bad name.

    The mentally of sellers on the WF needs a shake up or Paypal disappearing will only be the start of the problem.

    Before you flame me, I'm not a WF hater and I have given plenty back here. Yet, I have been the victim of scams here, and I have had to take the issue to Paypal when seller 'disappear'...

    If WF does not start to police its own, then in Paypal's position, I would do the same. Just being honest.
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    Not everyone shared this experience. I have had a wonderful experience with Paypal. Something tells me those getting banned are a minority.
    Signature
    It is okay to contact me! I have been developing software since 1999, creating many popular products like phpLD.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

      Not everyone shared this experience. I have had a wonderful experience with Paypal. Something tells me those getting banned are a minority.
      I would certainly agree they are in the minority, but places like the WF WSO sections have a higher than normal rate of "problem merchants".

      That's the bigger problem for most people. Like was mentioned in the video, paypal certainly does not have a warm and fuzzy feeling about the WF. That in turn puts others who are playing by the rules at an unfair, but still increased risk of having trouble.

      The whole through the baby out with the bathwater argument.

      IMO, It truly is in most people's best interest to clean things up a bit.
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      • Profile picture of the author TestiVar
        Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

        The whole through the baby out with the bathwater argument.
        That might have been true three or four years ago. At this point, it is more like throwing the cockroach out with the bathwater.

        Go look. Do you see even 1% of offers that make you proud to have anything to do with that community?

        There is no baby to throw out with the bath water at this point.

        IMO, It truly is in most people's best interest to clean things up a bit.
        Agreed. There are a ton of negative things that can be said about PayPal (and have been said by many people and many sites).

        This isn't one of them. The problem is with the WF and the WSO section and the spammers and scammers that are now overrunning them unchecked, not PayPal.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    after reading this thread there are lots of different opinions as to who`s fault it is and people shoulc create more value or things should be cleaned up etc etc

    but... what we all have to bare in mind is it doesnt matter how much value or quality you provide anyone who sells wso`s or promotes anything to do with the warior forum and wso pro will:

    "ALL GET TARRED BY THE SAME BRUSH"

    at some point it looks very likely that paypal are going to take some serious action against either the WF or internet marketers in general that sell IM/make money products

    IMO we should be looking into alternative payment processors

    it all depends if paypal are going to target the whole "make money online" industry

    or.. they are just going to clamp down on members promoting through the warrior forum/warrior plus system

    i love using paypal but of course it seems sensible to not dismiss this whole paypal issue about what is going on and after listening to that paypal call its quite clear that the guys at paypal dont like us guys here at the warrior forum too much

    (and yes the guy quite clearly said that this forum doesnt provide much value)

    someone mentioned earlier about the WF doing there own payment processor (that would be awesome)

    but the same with anything time will tell

    paul
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  • Profile picture of the author JMSD
    Hmmmm. Thought provoking. Touch wood, I have't yet had issues with PayPal but then I made sure before setting up in business online and shortly after opening my business accounts with PayPal, that I went through anything and everything that I didn't understand about their terms.

    I verified my accounts in the usual way but, in addition, I provided documentation to verify the legitimacy of my business, VAT number, incorporation number - you name it, I provided it so that the default limitation of $1900 which is placed as per EU regs on money laundering, could be lifted which it was.

    Anytime I have a query, I make contact them by telephone and I'm dealt with courteously and efficiently.

    I don't forsee problems but I know that if I did not have PayPal for use as a buyer, I'd be stuck because I don't like using my credit card online - paranoia, I suppose.

    I don't believe WF doing away with PayPal is the answer. Too many customers, like myself, trust it more than paying for goods online with any other process.

    Even if an alternative to PP was to be found, the same issues would be faced with the new payment processor because they would face the same risks that PayPal faces when people withdraw funds as quickly as they come in leaving PP to refund, if and when the merchant walks as some of them do, leaving PP to pick up the tab.

    The answer, it would seem to me, is to conduct one's business using best business practices, offering quality products, taking care of customer concerns immediately and promptly and avoiding deliberately or inadvertently in dazzling prospective customers with promises that your product does not or cannot deliver.

    If PP becomes a problem for one, there's always Clickbank.

    Jamie.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

    How about that? No more PayPal allowed on Warrior Forum.

    PayPal clearly doesn't want your business as this PayPal rep talks about http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
    Actually, that's about how PayPal clearly doesn't want Anthony's business. My business looks and works absolutely nothing like his, so it's perfectly irrelevant to me.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post




      Actually, that's about how PayPal clearly doesn't want Anthony's business. My business looks and works absolutely nothing like his, so it's perfectly irrelevant to me.
      CD and his pictures... lol

      Gotta love it.
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  • Profile picture of the author manicmethods
    Unfortunately, I personally think that attempting to get people to stop using Paypal would have extremely negative affects, especially for the user base here on Warrior Forum.

    It would be like telling all "Safari Users" that they are banned from using Google.com

    Wouldn't go down tooooo well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dee,
      Just 2 weeks ago, even after doing my due diligence I made a purchase which ended up being a scam. I was not the only one he scammed either, we all wrote on his thread about his bad service and his refusal to refund us.
      Did you report this to the mods? Failing to honor a posted refund policy is one of the fastest ways to get nuked here. Seriously.

      PM me the details, please.

      Derrick,
      The downfall started when people started "business models" around pumping out WSO after WSO, then teaching others to do the same and then WarriorPlus just magnified the problem like a snowball rolling down hill.
      This, in big bold print.

      And, speaking from personal opinion, I agree with Chris Kent's notion that forbidding any sort of income claim or promise would be a Very Good Idea. I've said that for years, though, so it really shouldn't surprise anyone.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author srh41
    DId pay-pal keep your balance? I have heard of that before
    Signature
    Strike where their is lots of Competition!!!!.....If you don't........... it's like opening a business in the country.....
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Nice posts everybody.

    I came into this thread with a totally different mindset about the PayPal situation than what I'm leaving with.

    I knew bringing this idea up wouldn't win me any friends lol... but I guess I interpreted that call differently than many of you when I heard it.

    I basically just heard one big slap in the face to people who sell on Warrior Forum.

    Alexa and Big Mike make some excellent insights.

    ExRat makes a great point about trying to understand what the PayPal rep wants to see.

    Then kindsvater rolls in as usual and writes a kickass post.

    Everyone who contributed to this subject has helped me see things with a clearer perspective.

    You're all awesome in my book.

    Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      I came into this thread with a totally different mindset about the PayPal situation than what I'm leaving with.
      Then once again the Warrior Forum has worked it's magic brother

      I knew bringing this idea up wouldn't win me any friends lol... but I guess I interpreted that call differently than many of you when I heard it.
      You're not going to lose any friends during a healthy discussion when you keep an open mind as you have.

      You brought up a very important issue that was clearly misinterpreted by a lot of people. Hopefully a lot of members have got a handle on the facts today, as you do.

      I think the most important message to come out of that recording is that PayPal is holding the product owner (the seller) responsible for the product. This jibes with what my Account Manager keeps telling me, and it makes sense when you consider the sheer volume of payments the WF collects through PayPal without having the account frozen.

      The WF is not the seller. Systems like W+, JVZoo, Digiresults, etc., are also not the seller and affiliates using these platforms are not the seller.

      One problem with ClickBank and why they're rejecting more and more products is because they ARE the seller. That places all of the risk on them directly and even frees up the actual product owner from a lot of risk to some extent.

      As to policing the WSO's - every buyer is more or less a cop...educate the buyers to stop buying WSO's that make ridiculous claims and they'll stop being promoted in time. Worst case there are far fewer of them than there are today.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Keith
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post


        As to policing the WSO's - every buyer is more or less a cop...educate the buyers to stop buying WSO's that make ridiculous claims and they'll stop being promoted in time. Worst case there are far fewer of them than there are today.
        I totally agree. The only issue I see is that in the real world, that means many are very likely going to take a "pay cut" in the short term. Most folks today are way to short sided to actively engage in such a thing.

        Let's be honest, there will always be a marketplace for low-end or sub par quality products in any niche. I think the WF and its members just need to decide if the WSO board is going to be one of those places going forward.

        There is not much disputing the percentage of quality products in the WSO forum has gone down over the last few years. Without action by someone (or a lot of someone's), that trend is very unlikely to reverse itself.

        If the WSO board continues to build on its reputation outside of the forum as being a place for cheap low quality products, sellers can expect their troubles to increase.

        I am surely not saying all products in their are bad. But the percentage of good to bad has gone down and is likely going to continue to do so. If that continues, more WSO sellers are going to face tougher scrutiny from any payment processor they use...including paypal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Orator
    There are a lot of excellent points, and counterpoints in this thread. When you get right down to it, PayPal is a business and is simply trying to protect its own interests. I don't blame them for being overzealous, even if it's a bit annoying. In the end though I think banning PayPal from Warrior Forum would be short-sighted, and ultimately useless. I suppose I don't really have a dog in this fight because I've shifted my entire business away from using Paypal period.

    I do think though it might be time to consider some new policies for the WSO section, or at least begin a discussion about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author UMS
    I think the biggest issue most people have with PayPal, is that PayPal makes their decision and action without any warning whatsoever.

    If they at least gave a few days notice that they were going to shut down your account (even if the funds were frozen), it would still give you some time to implement alternative payment options.

    Of course, PayPal has the right to conduct their business as they see fit, but I think a warning period would reduce some of the agro.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by UMS View Post

      I think the biggest issue most people have with PayPal, is that PayPal makes their decision and action without any warning whatsoever.

      If they at least gave a few days notice that they were going to shut down your account (even if the funds were frozen), it would still give you some time to implement alternative payment options.

      Of course, PayPal has the right to conduct their business as they see fit, but I think a warning period would reduce some of the agro.
      Sorry, (with all due respect) why on earth would they do that?

      "Hey, we've noticed you are running a scam though our payment processor. We don't want to inconvenience you so we just wanted to let you know we will be shutting down your scam in a few days time. This should hopefully give you enough time to move your scam business elsewhere. Sorry for any inconvenience caused. Sincerely, Paypal"

      Do you know how silly that sounds? They don't close down accounts for the hell of it. They close them down because they think they pose a risk to their business. So why on earth would you give someone who poses a risk to your business a courtesy warning? Would you?

      Sorry, but that just does not make ANY sense to me whatsoever... like a lot of this thread.

      A lot of you seem to treat this business like a game of monopoly. We are dealing with REAL money here people... REAL money. If I were Paypal and read through a thread like this one I would have all your accounts shut down in a heartbeat because it would be very clear to me very few of you actually take your businesses very seriously. If you did understand how REAL business works then this whole Paypal thing would not even be an issue.

      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

      Look in JVZoo, we can see on the affiliate side... they have products that have 4% 10% 20% 30% 50% and even 100% refund rates... are you kidding me they have no standards do they?
      I agree with you on this one. The simple fact is even those products make money and that is why they (JVZOO and the like) find it hard to delete them. But it will be their own problem down the track. I don't think there is any excuse for products with refund rates that high and any payment or delivery processor that tolerates and allows products like that to continue selling, are only ruining their own reputation. When the FTC comes breathing down on your door and can see you have allowed products with abnormally high refund rates to continue selling through your system, you then have a fair bit of explaining to do I would imagine.

      You are either part of the problem or you are not. Allowing the problem to continue when you are well aware of it says to me you are part of the problem. If it were me I would be closing down any products with refund rates over 20%. Even that is a ridiculous figure but you have to start somewhere. So the challenge is set. Are JVZoo, Warrior Plus, etc going to step up to the plate and do the same? It only makes sense to me. Clickbank have started doing it and I'm sure that was FTC related.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Interesting thread.

    1) You guys are doing EXACTLY what you are blaming Paypal for doing. One minute you say you are sick of Paypal placing all IM products under the one umbrella when clearly not all products are created equal yet in the same breath you are saying we need to completely remove Paypal from the Warrior Forum because a VERY small number of people (in the scheme of things) have had some issues with their accounts. So it's NOT ok for Paypal to make brash decisions based on only a few experiences but it IS ok for you to do the same? That makes perfect sense.

    2) The Paypal call in the opening post was not made by Jason. It was Anthony Aires. A few people seem to be getting mixed up on that. Anthony has also admitted in a recent webinar made since that phone recording that his case has been escalated at Paypal and he is a lot more hopeful about his account being restored. He also stated that the reason his account came under review in the first place is because he launched a product into an account that had seen almost no activity before and all of a sudden within a few days it had a rush of thousands of dollars. It doesn't matter who the hell is processing your payments, if that type of thing happens, people are going to ask questions. If they didn't then they are not the kind of payment processor I would want to be working with.

    3) Paypal are not only doing this stuff to protect themselves, they are also doing it to protect you as a customer. But when you really stand back and give it some good thought, they ARE actually doing this to help vendors as well. If Paypal ends up getting a bad rep as a payment processor then very few people are going to use it and your sales will suffer.

    4) If your business model is based solely on promoting other people's products and getting instant commissions into your Paypal account then when/if things go belly up for you, you really have no one else to blame except for yourself. No more to say on that point. This is a rookie error and I'm quite sure most of us here are aware of that.

    5) How many normal businesses in the offline world do you know of that open shop, process thousands of dollars worth of payments over a short few days, close up shop and then move on? How many normal businesses in the offline world do you know of that are setup in such a way whereby you pay for the product you are purchasing from them, through an anonymous 3rd party that neither of you know from a bar of soap? If you really can't understand why Paypal sees this type of business model as risky then I don't think that is Paypal's fault at all, it's yours. It's clear as day to me and other Warriors.

    I also don't agree with the constant comments in this thread whinging that Paypal need to reveal their cards and tell you once and for all which products are fine and which are not. Paypal do not have to do anything they don't want to do. If you don't like the service they are providing then move on, they sure won't miss your $50 worth of processing fees for the year. If you really think this industry is worth them spending a whole lot of time on then you are very mistaken. The transactions processed on the WSO forum would be TINY in the scheme of things. Nothing they are going to lose any sleep over. It makes much more business sense for them to just remove accounts than to sit down and plan up a whole new set of 'can do's and 'can't do's. They will just introduce a blanket rule soon that says no IM products are allowed. When it happens you can all go and pat yourselves on the back for a job well done because it IS this industry that has bought it upon themselves. Did you honestly think this crap could go on forever?

    As for someone needing to come up with an IM payment processor that allows a lot of this rubbish to continue, do you know why this has not happened as yet? It's simple. No one wants to touch the IM industry. No bank in their right mind would want to be associated with all of this for the small amount of money it might make them in processing fees per year. This isn't going to change anytime soon either so if you are sitting around waiting for some magical IM payment processor to come on to the scene, you are going to be waiting a LONG LONG time. You have a better chance of seeing some flying pigs outside your window right now... go on, go take a look.

    P.S. At least you know Anthony would have your back in a fight. "It wasn't me, it was that guy over there... that guy!!"
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    First time I heard this... Great stuff!

    Toss W+ under the bus... Nice

    I woulds have to say they have a point about the circles... I'm sure they have looked at the buyers and sellers on the WF and the pattern is circles...

    I'm sure they see and read the sales page and look at the buyers and see their paypal accounts are not making sales after they buy the said product that has a headline .... Make 10,000 in 30 minutes...

    I'm sure if say Jerry has a product A that says buy this and make 1000.00 per month...

    Tom buys product A that says make 1000.00 a month... then they see Tom's account making 1000.00 per month they would have no problem because the product does what it would says.

    Paypal has the advantage they get to see the real numbers and they see Tom, Sue, Mick, Grant, Brad, Steve, Scott and so on buy Product A and they never see these account making any money... Just buying stuff after stuff that makes claims they can make Money...But never do...

    It's sounds like the buyer takes makes some faults they buy one dud after dud after dud and enough people who buy these duds and the products never pan out

    PayPal sees the real numbers... not fake screen shots we see and they can tell it is fake... so they flag it...

    PayPal also can see and match testimonials also when they review and this could also flag it.

    what about this concept...
    Step up and make sure your customers do make the money you say they can, or stop making hyped up sales pages.

    What I could hear is paypal account from 2004 and made 12,000 over 8 years is no big loss to them and something more must have raised a red flag the numbers are just low.

    I would say someone or many complained about something that was a real truth when paypal looked at the accounts.

    I do think they should hold WF or W+ or 3rd party in part and make them step up and police the products they allow.

    Look in JVZoo, we can see on the affiliate side... they have products that have 4% 10% 20% 30% 50% and even 100% refund rates... are you kidding me they have no standards do they?

    Clean it up Guys / Gals !

    Make higher standards and clean things up.


    Richard

    P.S.
    Where is the persons WSO at anyone seen it? Does he claim make big money with my system but his paypal account shows he does not make big money so How can he teach to make it if he don't himself?

    P.S.S if you make some hyped up sales page and you come under review and paypal sees you don't make what you say they BAN you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by RichardDean View Post

      Paypal has the advantage they get to see the real numbers and they see Tom, Sue, Mick, Grant, Brad, Steve, Scott and so on buy Product A and they never see these account making any money... Just buying stuff after stuff that makes claims they can make Money...But never do...

      PayPal sees the real numbers... not fake screen shots we see and they can tell it is fake... so they flag it...

      PayPal also can see and match testimonials also when they review and this could also flag it.
      For some reason...

      I'm having a hard time seeing PayPal go through these costly procedures when they own the button.

      They have enough experience they can rely on to cut the cord before they need to resort to matching testimonials to users PP accounts, because some numbskull around the table might mention "Maybe the guy uses [insert other payment processor here]" and they would all look silly.

      Just my opinion on the above, btw...

      ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    I DON'T think that WF should ban PP. I happen to like being able to buy something and have it debited from my bank account. Not everyone has or wants a credit card.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
      Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

      I DON'T think that WF should ban PP. I happen to like being able to buy something and have it debited from my bank account. Not everyone has or wants a credit card.
      Then get a debit card for your bank account and the same thing would happen...

      Seems like the obvious solution.

      -G
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  • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
    One of the biggest problems with PayPal is not in the way in which PayPal works. PayPal is completely predictable if you aren't blind to how they function and how they profit. The problem with PayPal is the people who have been around long enough to realize that if they file a dispute, they will most likely win in keeping the product and their money.

    I use PayFlow Pro which is owned by PayPal to process my PayPal payments and it's like a different ball game.

    I expect that enough money has been pushed around through the WarriorForum for the past decade that WarriorForum is on their radar and that at some point in time, PayPal will no longer wish to process any and all payments that have anything to do with the WarriorForum for the reasons given by the representative in that video.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by FaJeeb View Post

      PayPal is completely predictable if you aren't blind to how they function and how they profit.
      ^^ THIS ^^
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by FaJeeb View Post

      One of the biggest problems with PayPal is not in the way in which PayPal works. PayPal is completely predictable if you aren't blind to how they function and how they profit.
      I think this is exactly why some people (me included) would like to see some additional attempts to self police the IM industry.

      It's not like we don't know many of the things that raise red flags.

      It is just that we lack the "political will" to do it ourselves, So it seems almost inevitable that it will be done for us one way or the other.
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      • Profile picture of the author sadneck
        All I can say is that everyone should be careful. Never thought it could happen, but pp locked my account and funds for 6 months without cause, (submitted my documents to them,) and still locked my account. A complete nightmare...

        I am glad to find other methods, regardless of how inconvenient at the time. We should be in control of our own money, not pp.

        They are a business pure and simple, and this is one business taking liberties like a bank.

        I personally use authorize.net and Moneybookers. There are alternatives.
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        • Profile picture of the author masmiskun
          Originally Posted by sadneck View Post

          All I can say is that everyone should be careful. Never thought it could happen, but pp locked my account and funds for 6 months without cause, (submitted my documents to them,) and still locked my account. A complete nightmare...

          I am glad to find other methods, regardless of how inconvenient at the time. We should be in control of our own money, not pp.

          They are a business pure and simple, and this is one business taking liberties like a bank.

          I personally use authorize.net and Moneybookers. There are alternatives.
          the same thing happened to me. They first limit my account with 700 usd in it. After that they refunded the money from my account one by one without my permission. After that i contacted the customer service and they replied "becuse the status of your account we refund all of the client money" I don't like paypal but i don't have any other choice.
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  • Profile picture of the author toberich
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      Originally Posted by toberich View Post

      In my opinion the warrior forum should make its own payment processors for WSO's that take for example 4% of transfers and can send money to your bank account or by check with a minimum threshold of $75 for both. That would be nice
      Would you like a pony, too? :rolleyes:

      Sarcasm aside, it's not so simple as "just make a payment system for the WF."

      Lots of regulations and implications to consider.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Most of us have been burned many times - yes many. Please remember paydirect from yahoo, or c2it from citi corpse. Well, citi has a new service. They are not going to shut this one down they promise.

    Hey, we are tired of excuses. Perhaps we can partner with money bookers or some other service. Still, I want a stable company. Yeah, as in one that will be around many years. OK are you listening amazon. This could be a massive op. A good fit could be pro pay.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      Most of us have been burned many times - yes many. Please remember paydirect from yahoo, or c2it from citi corpse. Well, citi has a new service. They are not going to shut this one down they promise.

      Hey, we are tired of excuses. Perhaps we can partner with money bookers or some other service. Still, I want a stable company. Yeah, as in one that will be around many years. OK are you listening amazon. This could be a massive op. A good fit could be pro pay.
      Don't you understand that IM products like this are but a TINY little insignificant sum of money in the scheme of things. Have a look at the Warrior Plus ticker at the moment and it will show nearly 30 million dollars worth of WSO sales processed so far. Now obviously that doesn't represent all sales but you also need to remember that not all WSO's accept Paypal. So let's just guess and say there had been 75 million dollars worth of WSO sales processed up to this point, over all these years.

      That might sound like a lot of money but do your sums on that and work out how much money Paypal would have made from all those transactions. A very small amount in the scheme of things. The profit they make from these transactions is not worth the huge increase in risk to their business and their reputation. I can only imagine how much of their time is wasted with disputes over piddly little amounts of money processed through the WSO forum.

      You also need to understand that there are WAY too many accounts on Paypal for them to sit there and go through each and every account looking for trouble makers. That's what a lot of people on this forum seem to think is happening. It's just not true. Instead they have automated processes in place that look for certain patterns of behavior and when triggered, a human will then be sent to look over your account. If you do nothing out of the ordinary then it is very unlikely they will have any reason to investigate your account. There are exceptions of course but on the whole, most cases of limitations would have been the result of some type of abnormal activity whether it be a spike in sales, abnormally high refund rate, etc, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
    Do you want to know why another payment processor hasn't stepped in yet... something like a ClickBank?

    It's because Warriors are cheap as hell! Or maybe better put... don't understand the true costs of doing business.

    If someone were going to offer a service like ClickBank for WSOs, where they processed the transactions through their own merchant account, that company would have to charge ClickBank type rates... so you'd be looking at 7.5% + $1.00 per transaction just like ClickBank does.

    And yes, I realize that $1.00 is a much larger percentage of a $7.00 sale than it is on a $47.00 sale, but maybe that'd be a good thing... maybe it'd cause the price of WSOs to go up to somewhere close to what people should actually be pricing at anyway.

    One more thing...

    I'm NOT saying this for the hell of it. I know of someone who has the ability to bring this service to reality, who ALREADY has the merchant accounts secured, and who can charge those exact rates... the reason they haven't done it is simple... they think the no one would use it because the processing rates would be too high for warrior to swallow.

    Opinions?

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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Gary_The_Ace View Post

      Do you want to know why another payment processor hasn't stepped in yet... something like a ClickBank?

      It's because Warriors are cheap as hell! Or maybe better put... don't understand the true costs of doing business.

      If someone were going to offer a service like ClickBank for WSOs, where they processed the transactions through their own merchant account, that company would have to charge ClickBank type rates... so you'd be looking at 7.5% + $1.00 per transaction just like ClickBank does.
      Exactly.

      The ONLY reason Clickbank are able to continue operating like they do and allow all of these IM products without limitation is because of their abnormally laxed refund policy. In order for banks and Paypal to back them and continue to back them, they would have had to guarantee they would honor any fair refund requests asked of them (no questions asked) and they would also have the ability to process refunds on behalf of their vendors. This greatly reduces the risk to the banks and Paypal.

      On the other side of the coin people complain that they don't use Clickbank because the refund policy is too laxed. Then we had others complaining the other day when Mike Lantz asked Warrior Plus users for greater access to their Paypal accounts that would allow Mike to do things such as the processing of refunds on their behalf. This is not what Mike wanted the extra permissions for but if we wanted a payment processor like we are all talking about then it would probably mean giving them a lot more control over our payments and refunds. Something most people don't seem to be comfortable with.

      You can't have your cake and eat it too.

      You are all asking for this one-stop IM payment processor, well it's there. It has been for years. It's called Clickbank and it does everything you all want an IM payment processor to do. It let's you sell any IM product you want. It understands spikes in sales and refunds. It accepts credit cards and Paypal. It has an easy inbuilt affiliate feature. It collects all taxes on your behalf and then sends the rest of the money to you by cheque or direct deposit.

      So why are we having this conversation? The fact is people want a payment processor like Paypal but without any of the realistic limitations a processor like that would need to enforce in order to operate in a high risk industry like this.

      We can all make the change right away. If everyone started using Clickbank for WSO's then there would be no issue here at all. Sure, the fees might be a little higher but if Mike Lantz and the guys at JVZoo went over to Clickbank and said look, we are willing to work with you and encourage the migration of all WSO sales over to your platform, then they might even be able to work out a better fee structure for WSO users. But even at the $1 + 7.5% it's not really that bad for the added piece of mind you get in knowing your account won't just get shut down for running an overly successful offer. You may even end up with a few more refunds by using Clickbank but isn't it a small price to pay, really?

      (Edit: If we all moved over to Clickbank there actually wouldn't be a need for any services like Warrior Plus or JV Zoo. Good thing? Bad thing? I don't know...)

      Another great thing about using Clickbank is it would greatly reduce the number of hyped up offers in the WSO forum. They now have very strict policies in place regarding the income claims that can be made and this would only be a good thing for the WSO forum. A lot of people have always asked for more moderation of WSO offers before they are posted and this would achieve exactly that. Obviously less WSO offers being posted means less profit for the forum operators but it's a better option than letting things continue to run as they are and having no WSO forum in a years time.

      Just a thought...
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        I'd love to use Clickbank to promote products as an affiliate on this form.

        To answer your question "why are we having this conversation in the first place?". For me it is because at least 95% of my income comes from affiliate marketing and I like promoting WSOs because these are transparent offers with reviews all over the page and there are alot of quality products.

        But all the WSOs I promote use WSO Pro.

        And it's all tied to PayPal.

        So it's also not as easy as the always friendly Black Hat Cat is suggesting either.

        As an affiliate in this niche I can either go promote garbage or I can promote WSOs... I choose WSOs.

        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        Exactly.

        The ONLY reason Clickbank are able to continue operating like they do and allow all of these IM products without limitation is because of their abnormally laxed refund policy. In order for banks and Paypal to back them and continue to back them, they would have had to guarantee they would honor any fair refund requests asked of them (no questions asked) and they would also have the ability to process refunds on behalf of their vendors. This greatly reduces the risk to the banks and Paypal.

        On the other side of the coin people complain that they don't use Clickbank because the refund policy is too laxed. Then we had others complaining the other day when Mike Lantz asked Warrior Plus users for greater access to their Paypal accounts that would allow Mike to do things such as the processing of refunds on their behalf. This is not what Mike wanted the extra permissions for but if we wanted a payment processor like we are all talking about then it would probably mean giving them a lot more control over our payments and refunds. Something most people don't seem to be comfortable with.

        You can't have your cake and eat it too.

        You are all asking for this one-stop IM payment processor, well it's there. It has been for years. It's called Clickbank and it does everything you all want an IM payment processor to do. It let's you sell any IM product you want. It understands spikes in sales and refunds. It accepts credit cards and Paypal. It has an easy inbuilt affiliate feature. It collects all taxes on your behalf and then sends the rest of the money to you by cheque or direct deposit.

        So why are we having this conversation? The fact is people want a payment processor like Paypal but without any of the realistic limitations a processor like that would need to enforce in order to operate in a high risk industry like this.

        We can all make the change right away. If everyone started using Clickbank for WSO's then there would be no issue here at all. Sure, the fees might be a little higher but if Mike Lantz and the guys at JVZoo went over to Clickbank and said look, we are willing to work with you and encourage the migration of all WSO sales over to your platform, then they might even be able to work out a better fee structure for WSO users. But even at the $1 + 7.5% it's not really that bad for the added piece of mind you get in knowing your account won't just get shut down for running an overly successful offer. You may even end up with a few more refunds by using Clickbank but isn't it a small price to pay, really?

        (Edit: If we all moved over to Clickbank there actually wouldn't be a need for any services like Warrior Plus or JV Zoo. Good thing? Bad thing? I don't know...)

        Another great thing about using Clickbank is it would greatly reduce the number of hyped up offers in the WSO forum. They now have very strict policies in place regarding the income claims that can be made and this would only be a good thing for the WSO forum. A lot of people have always asked for more moderation of WSO offers before they are posted and this would achieve exactly that. Obviously less WSO offers being posted means less profit for the forum operators but it's a better option than letting things continue to run as they are and having no WSO forum in a years time.

        Just a thought...
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

          I'd love to use Clickbank to promote products as an affiliate on this form.

          To answer your question "why are we having this conversation in the first place?". For me it is because at least 95% of my income comes from affiliate marketing and I like promoting WSOs because these are transparent offers with reviews all over the page and there are alot of quality products.

          But all the WSOs I promote use WSO Pro.

          And it's all tied to PayPal.

          So it's also not as easy as the always friendly Black Hat Cat is suggesting either.

          As an affiliate in this niche I can either go promote garbage or I can promote WSOs... I choose WSOs.
          Jason, I understand that. But putting all your eggs in one basket and relying on affiliate email marketing for 95% of your income is not Paypal's fault, that's your own. Relying on any one method for your income is always going to be a risky game and you will always be at the mercy of one provider.

          Just like if you rely solely on SEO then you are always going to be at the mercy of Google and we have seen over and over how many people have had their businesses totally screwed by a simple change in the Google algorithm. But when this happens they have no one to blame but themselves.

          I hate to say it but getting rid of Paypal is not going to fix your problem. Your issue is that if Paypal closed down your account tomorrow then you would be screwed and out of an income. To me that has more to do with your business model than anything else. If your sole business model is the promotion of WSO's then I would be a little concerned to say the least.

          That's just my opinion, obviously.
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          • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
            Originally Posted by WillR View Post

            I hate to say it but getting rid of Paypal is not going to fix your problem. Your issue is that if Paypal closed down your account tomorrow then you would be screwed and out of an income. To me that has more to do with your business model than anything else. If your sole business model is the promotion of WSO's then I would be a little concerned to say the least.
            I said 95% of my income comes from being an affiliate.

            It's been that way for years.

            I said I LIKE to promote WSOs as an affiliate.

            It's not like there aren't a million other products to promote.

            I would LIKE to continue promoting WSOs.
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            • Profile picture of the author WillR
              Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

              I said 95% of my income comes from being an affiliate.

              It's been that way for years.

              I said I LIKE to promote WSOs as an affiliate.

              It's not like there aren't a million other products to promote.

              I would LIKE to continue promoting WSOs.
              Jason,

              I must have read that wrong and if I did, that's great. Having your income spread around the place is definitely a good idea. The fact remains though there are definitely some people who rely heavily (if not solely) on the promotion of WSO products for their income.

              What makes me laugh sometimes is all this talk about 'WSO's'. At the end of the day a WSO is nothing more than a product with a discount. We could sell them anywhere. There are already a few forums I have come across that are selling these types of offers away from the WSO forum.

              So it needn't be the WSO forum that ties all these offers together, it just has been up until now.
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              • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                Jason,

                I must have read that wrong and if I did, that's great. Having your income spread around the place is definitely a good idea. The fact remains though there are definitely some people who rely heavily (if not solely) on the promotion of WSO products for their income.

                What makes me laugh sometimes is all this talk about 'WSO's'. At the end of the day a WSO is nothing more than a product with a discount. We could sell them anywhere. There are already a few forums I have come across that are selling these types of offers away from the WSO forum.

                So it needn't be the WSO forum that ties all these offers together, it just has been up until now.
                Agreed. While right now there's an opportunity to promote WSOs, I will gladly promote them. And I would love to keep doing it but all-in-all they are just offers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sardent
            Look at it this way, Paypal is a vehicle.
            Just as many people use a vehicle to get to work to earn money, so do people use Paypal.
            And it may be well and good to say that people should have more than one vehicle, but is that realistic?
            Especially since with this analogy Paypal would be akin to public transportation.

            Another point, one that has frustrated me in the past, is the ambiguity with which Paypal makes/enforces their decisions.
            As many have pointed out, why does WF get off scotfree for allowing bad sales?
            My Paypal account has had sales blocked, and my account outright frozen, merely because a purchaser I do not know, nor had anyway to tell was high risk to Paypal, tried to make a purchase from me.
            WF surely charges for WSO's, Classified's, etc. If these WF customers products are high risk how is WF, which uses Paypal as the processor for the ad, not culpable according to Paypal's own practices?
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            • Profile picture of the author sadneck
              "I moved from page 15 to page 4 - where still nobody finds me, but at least I feel better about the money I spent."
              Lol.... This is true, but who said I was going to stop at page 4... =)

              The problem is not in the change of policy, but as CyberSEO pointed out, in the inconsistency. And this is the scary part. Fine, you don't want WSO or IM products, great, than say so and stick to it.

              As CyberSEO said, the warez sites are collecting donations and the majority of them do it through paypal. However, the big bad Joe Johnson on the WF forum selling his $7 IM product is shut down for "questionable income from a product with no measurable value."

              Its this inconsistency that needs to be tackled. Inconsistency translates to a lack of security, and individuals and businesses need to now they can trust that there money is secure and safe if we drag it out of our banks and/or credit cards and place it into the "paypal account/bank".

              This is not an unfair thing to ask, which is why, whenever possible, I will snub paypal...
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                As many have pointed out, why does WF get off scotfree for allowing bad sales?
                Maybe because we don't. At least not once we know there's something bad going on.

                That becomes an issue of people reporting problems to the mods, and giving us real data that serves as evidence, not just "This is a scam!" People use that word so loosely it no longer has any useful meaning in conversations here.

                When we have actual evidence that's convincing, we act pretty quickly. But we can't just start nuking offers and accounts on the say-so of a single person, who usually has almost no track record in the forum. That is, more often than not, just someone who's got their ego in an uproar and wants to hurt the person they're angry with.

                Do I think income claims and promises should be eliminated here? Absolutely. Aside from that, though, there's a surprisingly small amount of real "problem children" among the offers. Most of those can easily be avoided by just using a bit of common sense.

                It's kind of funny, really. Some folks want the mods to somehow protect them from the Big Bad Sellers, but they won't make the effort to think for themselves. And when they get burned, it's everyone's fault but their own.

                When we do anything to tighten things up, many of those same people scream that we're "overstepping our bounds."

                Same old stuff. Been going on here as long as there's been a here here.

                People who want to go back to the old days are just going to be disappointed. The forum has gone from being a community to a platform. That changed a lot of things, and most of the members would scream bloody murder if we changed them back.

                Here's some advice for anyone using the WSO section as a potential buyer:

                1: Ignore income claims. Completely. Even if they're true, they're irrelevant.

                2: Don't buy any offer that makes an income promise. Even if there's a guarantee attached.

                3: Set criteria the seller must meet before you'll buy from them. Most of those will be subjective, but one good one is not to buy from anyone who's been a member less than a month unless you're familiar with them from some other venue.

                4: Buy only what fits your skill level and business model.

                5: Don't spend money you can't afford to lose. And that doesn't mean "... if you're scammed." That money is lost even if the product is fantastic, if you never use what you've bought or if it's just a bad fit for your business.

                6. Ignore income claims, and don't buy any offer that makes an income promise.

                7. Before you hit the Buy Now button, ask yourself: "Does this fit with my business plan, or am I just buying because it sounds cool?" Adjust your actions accordingly.

                Those simple things will save you a lot of headaches and wasted time.


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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  7. Before you hit the Buy Now button, ask yourself: "Does this fit with my business plan
                  Skip directly to this step.

                  Most people don't have a business plan. And business plans necessarily evolve. Look at how things went with my own IM planning:

                  Q2 2009: Supplement my wife's income with freelance writing
                  Q3 2009: Provide the entire family income with freelance writing
                  Q4 2009: Move from content writing to copywriting
                  Q1 2010: Migrate income source to original products
                  Q2 2010: Add passive income AdSense blogs to business
                  Q3 2010: Work with other product creators in JVs
                  Q4 2010: Develop product lines rather than single products
                  Q1 2011: Launch through affiliates rather than solo
                  Q2 2011: This sucks. I hate what I do. I'm starting over.
                  Q3 2011: Listbuilding and affiliate promotions to get by
                  Q4 2011: The Great And Mighty Plan Of Doom

                  In retrospect, none of those earlier plans were going to work. In many cases, I should have known better when I made them. But most importantly, my purchases supported what I was doing every step of the way. (Notice also, for perspective, that after two years in this business I looked at what I was doing and said "nope, this isn't right" - then started over.)

                  In Q2 and Q3 of 2009, I purchased primarily WSOs about how to write better and faster and for more money. In Q4, I started buying a bunch of copywriting stuff. And in 2010, I started buying a lot of product creation stuff.

                  It wasn't until Q2 that I started buying and reading a lot of stuff about AdSense, and once I decided this wasn't the right model for me, I stopped.

                  On some level, you have to know what you're doing, and your purchases have to support that. And if you don't know what you're doing yet, the absolute worst place you could possibly look is on a sales page - because every single one of them will insist that you ought to be doing whatever this product right here teaches.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Caliban,
                    On some level, you have to know what you're doing, and your purchases have to support that.
                    One line from a very useful post.

                    This one has interesting implications. If you know what you're doing, you're probably going to be better equipped to make decisions that avoid the scammy types of offers.

                    Funny how that happens...


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                    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                      Hi Paul/Caliban,

                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Caliban,One line from a very useful post.

                      This one has interesting implications. If you know what you're doing, you're probably going to be better equipped to make decisions that avoid the scammy types of offers.

                      Funny how that happens...


                      Paul
                      These comments provoke an obvious question -

                      How does someone know that they now know what they are doing?

                      We have kind of discussed this before Paul. Once someone has a learning epiphany, the joy quickly subsides when they (hopefully) realise that although they have just peeled back one layer 'of the onion', it's not the final layer - they are just slightly less clueless, but in real danger of assuming that they now know it all.

                      In other words, we only feel that we know what we are doing, until the next failure/epiphany, at which point we declare -

                      'I thought I knew what I was doing, but it was an illusion. Now that I have discovered XYZ though, I now really do know what I am doing and can safely peruse all of the salespages I like.'

                      Until the next failure/epiphany.

                      In my opinion, we never really 'know what we are doing' but we have to tell ourselves (to a degree) that we know enough to strive forward and be useful.

                      Therefore, regarding salespages, it's just all-round better to find a way to be able to confront yourself with them and still come out unscathed, by developing self-control, rational/logical thought processes and critical thinking.

                      The world is full of temptation and deliberately laid and carefully placed traps. We only get anywhere close to 'knowing what we are doing' when we first try to know and understand ourselves and take some sort of control of ourselves because the default setting for the average human is 'full speed ahead, rudderless ship, decks laden with loose cannons.'
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Roger,
                        How does someone know that they now know what they are doing?
                        Lots of different answers to that. For this discussion, I'd say, "When, and to the extent that, they can achieve duplicatable positive results."
                        developing self-control, rational/logical thought processes and critical thinking
                        At which point the only sales pages you'd see are for products you'd already determined were something you'd use, and which you found while researching solutions.

                        BTW, sorry to dodge the epistemological aspects of the conversation, but it's pushing 5 AM here and my brain is toast.


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                      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                        How does someone know that they now know what they are doing?
                        My sensei used to say that when you reach black belt, you don't actually become an expert. You just realise that you suck on a whole new level.

                        You never really know what you're doing. You just stop not knowing what you're doing. You still suck at it.

                        In my opinion, we never really 'know what we are doing' but we have to tell ourselves (to a degree) that we know enough to strive forward and be useful.
                        Yeah. Pretty much.

                        This comes down to the decision-making process I like to lay out, which came to me by way of economist Russ Nelson.

                        If you don't know what to do, it's because you don't have enough information.

                        Discard all the things you know are the wrong decision, then get more information about the rest.

                        If you cannot get more information for whatever reason, including:

                        - You don't know what information you need
                        - You don't know where to get the information
                        - You don't know what the information means
                        - The information will take too long to get
                        - The information is too expensive

                        ...or any number of other things...

                        Then all the choices are functionally equivalent, and you should pick arbitrarily.

                        If your choice turns out to be wrong in the end, you should accept this with no regrets and move on.

                        Most people have a few cognitive biases that make this difficult, like the idea that if they make the right decision they will get exactly what they want. When they decide, and it turns out not to be the right decision, they beat themselves up over how they didn't pick the right one.

                        But there's no guarantee that any decision was the right one. In fact, the other decisions might all have been worse than the one you made. And since there's no way to go back and make the decision again - no man can stand in the same river twice, for it is no longer the same river, and he is no longer the same man - all you get to do is make a new decision.

                        In any case, making a decision and seeing what happens eventually becomes the only sensible way to get more information.

                        One of the things I've done throughout my IM career is to map out the path from where I am to where I'm going, and identify the things I need along the way. The big change in Q4 2011 was that for the first time, I looked at all the things I needed along the way, and I either already had them or knew where to get them. Until then, it was still basically this.


                        A lot of people would complain about all that time without getting where I was going... but after two and a half years of practice, I'm pretty damn good at collecting underpants.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Rhondaloo
                        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                        Hi Paul/Caliban,



                        These comments provoke an obvious question -

                        How does someone know that they now know what they are doing?

                        We have kind of discussed this before Paul. Once someone has a learning epiphany, the joy quickly subsides when they (hopefully) realise that although they have just peeled back one layer 'of the onion', it's not the final layer - they are just slightly less clueless, but in real danger of assuming that they now know it all.

                        In other words, we only feel that we know what we are doing, until the next failure/epiphany, at which point we declare -

                        'I thought I knew what I was doing, but it was an illusion. Now that I have discovered XYZ though, I now really do know what I am doing and can safely peruse all of the salespages I like.'

                        Until the next failure/epiphany.

                        In my opinion, we never really 'know what we are doing' but we have to tell ourselves (to a degree) that we know enough to strive forward and be useful.

                        Therefore, regarding salespages, it's just all-round better to find a way to be able to confront yourself with them and still come out unscathed, by developing self-control, rational/logical thought processes and critical thinking.

                        The world is full of temptation and deliberately laid and carefully placed traps. We only get anywhere close to 'knowing what we are doing' when we first try to know and understand ourselves and take some sort of control of ourselves because the default setting for the average human is 'full speed ahead, rudderless ship, decks laden with loose cannons.'
                        Reality is your perception...one person may perceive to fail while another in the same situation just sees it as a learning curve...just the way I see it, but I do agree with you that we never really know what we are doing, that just makes life fun

                        As far as sales pages go, whatever happened to being truthful and disclosing everything about a product? Eventually the truth comes out and maybe these people who were banned from using PayPal weren't being altogether truthful about their product...just saying!
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                        • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
                          Originally Posted by Rhondaloo View Post

                          As far as sales pages go, whatever happened to being truthful and disclosing everything about a product? Eventually the truth comes out and maybe these people who were banned from using PayPal weren't being altogether truthful about their product...just saying!
                          Rhondaloo, that is what I call shape-shifting copywriting.

                          It's one thing to be entertaining, ramp up the benefits, have clever headlines etc etc. It's another thing entirely to coat a dog turd in chocolate and call it a Cadbury delight. That is just plain deception.

                          One bite will tell everyone that. LOL!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Q4 2011: The Great And Mighty Plan Of Doom.
                    Is it copyright infringement to copy this plan? Sounds like a logical next step.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
      Originally Posted by Gary_The_Ace View Post

      Do you want to know why another payment processor hasn't stepped in yet... something like a ClickBank?

      It's because Warriors are cheap as hell! Or maybe better put... don't understand the true costs of doing business.

      If someone were going to offer a service like ClickBank for WSOs, where they processed the transactions through their own merchant account, that company would have to charge ClickBank type rates... so you'd be looking at 7.5% + $1.00 per transaction just like ClickBank does.

      And yes, I realize that $1.00 is a much larger percentage of a $7.00 sale than it is on a $47.00 sale, but maybe that'd be a good thing... maybe it'd cause the price of WSOs to go up to somewhere close to what people should actually be pricing at anyway.

      One more thing...

      I'm NOT saying this for the hell of it. I know of someone who has the ability to bring this service to reality, who ALREADY has the merchant accounts secured, and who can charge those exact rates... the reason they haven't done it is simple... they think the no one would use it because the processing rates would be too high for warrior to swallow.

      Opinions?

      -Gary Ambrose
      No opinions on this?

      Would you be willing to take ClickBank type rates if such an option existed?

      -G
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      • Profile picture of the author David Keith
        Originally Posted by Gary_The_Ace View Post

        No opinions on this?

        Would you be willing to take ClickBank type rates if such an option existed?

        -G
        First, I am not in the IM niche, but I have worked online for a really long time so I think I might can offer a few thoughts.

        1. I think CB type rates without the masses of affiliates CB brings is kinda nuts. That would obviously mean getting scaled up fast or risk never catching on.

        2. Personally, I think grouping any high risk group that is under some pressure to clean up its act is a risky en devour. Not saying it wouldn't pay off, just saying that a business that is designed to take on primarily IMers is a bit of a risk.

        3. Along the lines of point 2. The service would have to clean up the quality of products and services offered or it would be a target pretty quickly. That is going to be tough without letting "politics" get involved. I mean who says whats good. You, me, another fellow? Or is it just what sells good is good. Thats the problem CB just ran into. They had to say goodbye to a lot of really profitable merchants due to pressure. Many of those guys moved to similar services that have serviced the adult industry for years.

        4. You still going to have to accept paypal much like CB does in order to have a chance with that. As we can tell there is certainly some sentiment at PP that they don't want the business of IMers. So concentrating that into a single seller account similar to CB seems pretty risky.

        5. IMO the market is not ready for that. Maybe when or if PP really gets tough then the appetite for increased fees would be there, but I personally just don't see it right now. Plus the instant payment stuff is a big thing for a guy running a business on his last $100 bucks. You couldn't do that very easy with a service like you speak of very easily.

        6. also there are a few others out there who kinda do that stuff already. swreg.org is a PP pass through processor that enables people to protect their PP account. But it has higher fees like you speak of. It's not as IMer friendly as what you would make, but it can easily be made to work.

        I am sure there are others, but thats just off the top of my head. I think your biggest obstacle would be no appetite for increased fees when only a relative few PP accounts are having trouble.
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  • Profile picture of the author Myri
    Good idea, Jason. I would go with Amazon Flexible Payments Service (Amazon FPS).
    Amazon is worldwide well known, well trusted and FPS has great pricing. What can be better?

    But...the risk of having your account closed the way PayPal do WILL BE THE SAME IF QUESTIONABLE BUSINESS IS WHAT SOME PEOPLE DO, NOBODY WILL TOLERATE THEM.

    Bottom line - WF should have and enforce serious rules about the quality of WSO and what they claims, with ZERO TOLERANCE.
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  • I cant stand paypal. I dont sell any products through paypal at all.

    I take ebook sales etc through clickbank and services through plimus

    However I still have a paypal account as many affiliate companies will only pay out by paypal which is a real shame.

    If I could be completely free I would be.

    I could probably change affiliate companies but most of these are from ones I signed up from years ago and the affiliate commission is through viral marketing.

    And I know a lot more people like me that wont go near them especially for selling goods just in case they close them right in the middle of a big campaign.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by sadneck View Post

      No measurable value? can't be cleanly measured? I put their words on here, not to suggest that they are right, but to suggest that they have no idea what they are talking about. The reality is, IM Products, (specifically SEO products,) can do what they claim to do. Article Marketing is an effective vehicle for driving a site through the SERPS. So are other methods. I just recently joined a society that after buying a few PR 4 homepage links, I moved from page 15 to page 4 on a high competition keyword in 4 days.

      IM Products work and are measurable, but no one wants to tick off Mother Google. So IM Products, (SEO products,) are seen as dirty... Its a shame.
      Sorry but I don't agree with you. If I purchase a Wordpress plugin or a piece of software from you then I have received something from you in return for that payment... and Paypal can easily identify the worth of that product.

      If you sell me SEO services then how on earth are Paypal suppose to know where your website ranked originally, where it ranks now, if it was indeed the SEO services that changed your ranking or just pure luck? The fact is they have no way of telling this stuff and it's therefor very hard for them to place any real value on that service. It then means it is very hard for them to fight a dispute over that payment because there is nothing to show for that payment and therefore you are a high risk to them and therefore they do not want to do business with you.

      Most other services like webpage design, article marketing, video creation, copywriting, etc, these are all measurable because you are able to see the exact work completed.

      Originally Posted by Tiffiney Cowan View Post

      I launched my business in September of 2011 and all of my early WSOs were directed to my site and then to paypal. I added a buy button to my current WSO, but after listening to the call I'm thinking my original plan may be the safer way to go.
      Tiffiney,

      I don't think this makes a huge difference if you are using one of the WSO platforms such as Warrior Plus or JVZoo. They can still track everything through there. If you are not using any of those platforms and just straight out putting the Paypal buttons on your website then yes, this would probably help but all it takes is one complaint and someone draws them back to your WSO thread and the 'game' is up. It certainly can't hurt the situation.
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      • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        If you sell me SEO services then how on earth are Paypal suppose to know where your website ranked originally, where it ranks now, if it was indeed the SEO services that changed your ranking or just pure luck? The fact is they have no way of telling this stuff and it's therefor very hard for them to place any real value on that service. It then means it is very hard for them to fight a dispute over that payment because there is nothing to show for that payment and therefore you are a high risk to them and therefore they do not want to do business with you.

        Most other services like webpage design, article marketing, video creation, copywriting, etc, these are all measurable because you are ale to see the exact work completed.
        Exactly.

        There is much in IM arena then wso's and short sighted business plans.
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  • Profile picture of the author sylarrr
    Originally Posted by JasonParker

    Hey, instead of reading threads all day about WSO sellers getting banned from PayPal and stirring up anxiety among forum members... Why not ban PayPal for once?

    How about that? No more PayPal allowed on Warrior Forum.

    I'm not saying DO IT.

    I'm just saying think about that scenario and how it would solve... Well... Pretty much the whole problem.

    How about only use processors that actually want your business?

    I'm just sayin'.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering not IF but WHEN I'm going to be picked off by PayPal and how the playing field will no longer be level for me.

    If all systems adapted to non-PayPal processors on Warrior Forum then we would probably be in the same position we are in now, except not getting relentlessly s***canned by PayPal.

    PayPal clearly doesn't want your business as this PayPal rep talks about http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
    never gonna work. Why? Because all the buyers are using paypal
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    • Profile picture of the author mobiduck
      Originally Posted by sylarrr View Post

      never gonna work. Why? Because all the buyers are using paypal.
      Posted from Warrior Forum Reader for Android
      This as I recall was an 'argument' advanced some time back when the breakup of the telecomm monopolies was being contemplated. It's probably being advanced every minute and hour of the day in boardrooms across this great nation - the one founded on the basis of overthrowing a monopoly, and one enforced on pain of death, which is beginning to look like the only thing that's acceptable to PP and it's defenders! (Fastforward to the Paypal Drones - "We will find YOU!"

      Here's an interesting take on the subject.
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  • Profile picture of the author wkathome
    Is anyone using http://www.alertpay.com, they seem to welcome any and all business. Might be a good alternative to paypal. I just don't see too many sellers offering it as an alternative to using paypal.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by wkathome View Post

      Is anyone using http://www.alertpay.com, they seem to welcome any and all business. Might be a good alternative to paypal. I just don't see too many sellers offering it as an alternative to using paypal.
      I'd stear clear of AlertPay. Read a post from kindsvater that they're pretty much out of business for US processing.
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSEO
    Actually PayPal is a very funny company. They shout down the accounts left and right basing on their own decision. I.e. if they decide to close your account, it will be closed anyways and it doesn't matter if you break their TOS or not.



    On the other hand, look at these File Sharing services (e.g. megaupload) and associated pirate boards. They all make the bank on piracy (warez, Hollywood movies, TV shows, all sorts of pirated porn including illegal one like besti@lity etc). And guess who process all this "business"? Right, it's PayPal - the company which claims it has no relation to anything illegal. Very ironic, isn't it?
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    • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
      Originally Posted by CyberSEO View Post

      On the other hand, look at these File Sharing services (e.g. megaupload) and associated pirate boards. They all make the bank on piracy (warez, Hollywood movies, TV shows, all sorts of pirated porn including illegal one like besti@lity etc). And guess who process all this "business"? Right, it's PayPal - the company which claims it has no relation to anything illegal. Very ironic, isn't it?
      Actually a lot of these site are shutting down, or have been forced to shut down. Some of the big ones are already down. For instance check the site you listed NOTICE and take a look. There are 3 other bigs ones too.
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  • Profile picture of the author aminur
    so damn agree. i hope something takes off paypal. IN my point if we had chance to use different payment cart which allow us to use WSO pro then every thing should be fine. It's paypal what you need to use WSO pro. Most of the affiliates comes from WSO pro. Have paypal and other payment method.
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSEO
    Personally I never had a PayPal account and never will. That's a very shady e-money system I don't want to be associated with (see my post about processing of illegal content above).
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    Well, all I can say is that unfortunately, this is a very big risk when one is in Internet Marketing.

    The only real alternates to Paypal at this point are either merchant accounts or to promote Clickbank and get paid by check.

    I guess all you can do is do your best to comply to their policies and hope for the best and to have a long, profitable run.
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  • Profile picture of the author gojiberryman
    You know what Jason. I absolutely agree with you on that one. Paypal gives people the biggest hassle when it comes down to business as well as all kinds of transaction. I cannot even tell how many problems that I have had with Paypal thus far. This is the very reason why I choose Alert Pay over Paypal.
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  • Profile picture of the author mobiduck
    Do I sense a large portion of sour grapes here?

    And where's all that Warrior Love that we read about on here; ya know, solidarity, mutual 'support' (a meaningless New Age term that ought to have died a dignified death a decade ago), 'serve the people'? Or have these only ever been driven by that other grape product?

    Add a double portion of bar room lawyering and there ya go!
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by mobiduck View Post

      Do I sense a large portion of sour grapes here?

      And where's all that Warrior Love that we read about on here; ya know, solidarity, mutual 'support' (a meaningless New Age term that ought to have died a dignified death a decade ago), 'serve the people'? Or have these only ever been driven by that other grape product?

      Add a double portion of bar room lawyering and there ya go!
      No sour grape here...lol

      I don't even really have a dog in this hunt. I have never sold a product in the IM niche. Although for some unknown and probably stupid reason I did decide to dabble in IM this month.

      I am just discussing it from a business perspective more so than anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by mobiduck View Post

      Do I sense a large portion of sour grapes here?

      And where's all that Warrior Love that we read about on here; ya know, solidarity, mutual 'support' (a meaningless New Age term that ought to have died a dignified death a decade ago), 'serve the people'? Or have these only ever been driven by that other grape product?

      Add a double portion of bar room lawyering and there ya go!
      hehe... ya it's super easy to get into a pissing contest if you don't keep focused on the goal at hand.

      Some comments just rub you the wrong way and you end up thinking about defending yourself more than accomplishing your goal.

      My goal for this thread was to find solutions and figure out PayPal and what's REALLY going on.

      That's all I care about... Whether I'm right or wrong who gives a rat's.

      By the way, I also think the "My Meeting With The FTC" thread that's going on is giving pretty clear insights into what type of offers to promote.

      For the most part I've avoided promoting anything with income claims.

      There were some I've promoted because of how much I believe in the products... like Alex Jefferies Coaching Program... but I think I'll stick to the ole harmless "how to get traffic" kinda stuff, software, and things like that 100% for now on.

      I will say that since there are many threads with income claims all over them in the Warrior Forum, and knowing what I know now about the FTC's new direction, I am a little worried about this possibility... that anything sold through PayPal through WSO Pro or Warrior Forum will be tracked and your account shut down.

      That's at least the only risk I can possibly foresee. But if that happens I guess we'll all be in the same boat and it won't sting as bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author dennis09
    Anybody using Google Checkout? Iv'e only heard good things about it and I was planning on giving it a try.
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  • Profile picture of the author jeffrufino
    Yeah I've used Google Checkout to buy not to sell.
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    • Profile picture of the author dennis09
      Originally Posted by jeffrufino View Post

      Yeah I've used Google Checkout to buy not to sell.

      Same here, i went ahead and signed up for an account and it seems pretty hassle-free.
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  • Profile picture of the author quickcontent
    Paypal is the most loved as well as the most hated payment service. Yet, people use it...Paradox but truth! Biggies are hard to bring down. So I agree with many here - Paypal is here to stay. It's in the mindset of most customers that its the best and most reliable. So someone using paypal, becomes reliable in some way...
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  • Profile picture of the author Chips Fletcher
    Paypal has kept our site alive. No big administration fees and free stock control and buttons. I personally dont have a bad word to say about them
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  • Profile picture of the author masterz
    why isnt anybody talking about alertpay or liberty reserve as a temporary measure? nobody mentioned another payment processor everybody was trying to argue for or against paypal when in actual fact the question was finding an aliter to paypal
    and as a long term measure WF's own payment processor?
    just thinking loud
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    The problem is people buy on emotion.

    Nothing will ever change that.

    Once someone gets deep into "right brain mode," logic goes out the window.

    ... I would personally love it if things worked in reverse.

    But we aren't Vulcans (one for my fellow dorks out there).

    As they say, common sense ain't so common.
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      The problem is people buy on emotion.

      Nothing will ever change that.

      Once someone gets deep into "right brain mode," logic goes out the window.

      ... I would personally love it if things worked in reverse.

      But we aren't Vulcans (one for my fellow dorks out there).

      As they say, common sense ain't so common.
      +1 for the Trek reference.

      I certainly agree that until you get the emotional aspect of WSO purchases under control, you're going to make purchases indiscriminately and you're going to waste a lot of money on the way.

      That doesn't mean that the money is wasted because the WSO isn't a good one. It just means that if you are spending money on something that is not going to help you progress in the direction that you want to, you are doing yourself and your business are great disservice.

      There are so many people that I talk with that keep flitting from one thing to another, never settling on a business model, never going in one particular direction. They simply jump on the next bright shiny object that attracts their attention, play with it for a little while, then set it down and move onto the next one when they get bored or when they get distracted.

      It is painful to watch, quite frankly. I have watched people over the course of the past year - and longer - go from one idea to the next to the next. 12 months later they have tried a dozen different techniques ( I won't even call them business models, because the business model implies that you actually have sat down and thought something through and come up with a plan) and they haven't made money on any of them. Then they start complaining about how "nothing works."

      The problem isn't that nothing they tried would work. The problem is that nothing they tried would work within a week or two. They need to sit down and focus on an actual long term business model/plan.

      Which brings us to the question of PayPal.

      I don't think that it should be banned here in the Warrior Forum.

      I do think that people should have a backup plan in case something does happen to their PayPal accounts. Even better would be that they have a business model that either does not rely on PayPal or is a legitimate business that does not fall into any of PayPal's target areas.

      There is a reason why I chose to have a business mentor that is not an Internet marketer. My business mentor deals strictly with business start-ups that are traditional businesses.

      Because of this, I have my business structured differently than some people do, and I will be making even more changes to it to have it more in line with a traditional business model.

      If your "business model" revolves around a cycle of releasing WSO after WSO and selling bright shiny objects, maybe this is a wake-up call. Not saying that anybody in this thread does that, just saying that in general.

      JMHO and YMMV
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  • I don't think paypal cares
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  • Profile picture of the author John Thornhill
    I use ClickBank for most of my WSO's and have put over $100,000 in sales via WSO's through this forum using ClickBank, it can be done.

    Also, ClickBank are aware there is a need to provide a service to WSO sellers and are watching so a change could be on the way.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author John Thornhill
      Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

      John respect and like your stuff, like your posts man..but that is just LOLLL^

      Hmmm?...can't see them implementing anything close to what your suggesting in a million years..

      ...I can't see that...

      That's really gonna help out all the FAKE income claims...right?

      Just open the Floodgates to WSO's...I'm not saying all WSO's are a heap of crap..but...Clickbank doing that is just gonna open the Floodgates to idiots...who will do exactly what bought THIS thread here in the firstplace.

      Clickbank providing a service to WSO's...nah.

      On a more real point...when will people wake up to putting your hands in their pockets build a REAL solid biz and get a full blown Merchant account?

      Paypal is rank amateur imo.

      I like you as a marketer John...but I don't think you thought through what you just said.
      The big difference between listing a WSO with ClickBank and a WSO with any other processor is your product has to go through an approval process before you can list it.

      Think about that for a minute... If all WSO's had to go through an official approval process it would result in far less hypey products and loss of PayPal accounts.

      I'm not saying ClickBank are going to have a WSO specific service but they are looking into how this forum can be integrated with their service. How do I know this? Because ClickBank asked me how I managed to run my WSO's via their service.

      Like I said, I don't know what they are planning but I do know they are looking at some form of fast-track approval process. Whether it happens is another story.

      One thing I do know though is once your product has been approved by ClickBank they have no problems whatsoever with you listing it on here, and people can still use PayPal to buy your WSO.

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author OmarMartin
      Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

      when will people wake up to putting your hands in their pockets build a REAL solid biz and get a full blown Merchant account?

      Paypal is rank amateur imo.
      haha - while I do agree with the merchant account statement... the whole Paypal rank amateur thing I do not agree with.

      I processed over $700k with my paypal account last year as an Internet Marketer. Amateur? I think not. We have several accounts, including merchant accounts, web payment pro accounts and virtual terminals with Paypal. They provide an excellent service. Plus when you do the type of volume we do they assign your own Paypal Rep and technical person. Their service is awesome. Some might say its a bit close minded to call the worlds largest and most trusted online payment processor "amateurish". Thats my opinion.

      As for the Clickbank integration. I think its an awesome idea. We are already seeing this work successfully on WSOs. And if you know anything about me ... you know that I'm not a Clickbank butt licker, its quite the opposite. I have been VERY vocal about the bullcrap Clickbank scam sites out there. That has nothing to do with the fact that they offer a great service for merchants like us. Plus they don't market to your leads like W+ and the zoo. (Hmmm...) In reality THOSE are the "amateur" platforms.

      I'm currently in conversations with one of Clickbank's decision makers with regards to getting WSOs approved as pitch pages so there would no longer be a need for redirected links and cookie dropping issues. (Still in talks)

      Paypal understands Ebay and ecommerce, thats it. They'll never fully get what WE do.
      Clickbank on the other hand does understand us. PLUS - they offer Paypal as a payment option to the consumer with ZERO risk to your own account.

      WIN WIN WIN scenario.
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  • Profile picture of the author thekaver
    in theory your right it would be great to ban paypal. But for that to work everyone in IM would have to do it to make it work.

    thanks

    TheKaver
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelSJohn
    My view is bit more simplistic:
    -Risk is quantitative and can be laid out in mathematical terms.
    -If someone is a risk because they pose more risk to the company than the benefit obviously the company does not want to deal with the risk
    -Anthony did not pose more risk than his income to the company with reserves sufficient for refunds
    -The paypal rep made the statement that other people were selling similar items who bought from him, but that does not mean that other people can't sell something without paypal knowing they are exact duplicates and therefore provide no value
    -This to me a dangerous thing to admit to (Paypal's rep) because it makes everything arbitrary
    -Still, it is their business and they can do whatever they like, except for seize people's assets, which I believe completely unfair proportionately to the risk they can assess based on refunds and disputes.

    Ultimately it's a love it or leave it thing. We don't like the idea of them running our business, nor should be lose our objectivity in them not having control of their own business. I just find shutting out income a bit unfair in many cases.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rhondaloo
    Good idea!
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    In soviet russia the door slam you!
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  • Profile picture of the author ccstudio
    I think getting a payment processor to handle the warrior forum is an excellent idea. If we all bought into it. I mean i would think that there would be several wannabe paypal companies that would jump at the chance to handle this type of business. Just a thought. But I agree something has to be done. This is rediculous, all of us just waiting around to be axed.


    Thanks,

    Brad Dixon
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  • Profile picture of the author rayray7
    Paypal is another monopoly that is behaving badly. We urgently need credible competition. You should see how much ebay is making from their unit paypal.

    Competition is the only thing that would make them change their behavior.
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  • Profile picture of the author robie
    Whoa...this thing is new to me. Heard The Call. It looks like there's nothing we can do about it. So what's the solutions, then ? Everyone is using Paypal. Most of them.
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