Any truth to this about AWeber and iContact?

12 years ago

WOW! I would love to know too. I was just about to sign-up with AWeber. But what would their point be to not support IM? I mean, isn't that the whole point of using an autoresponder service? You are marketing via email.

What I am asking sounds like such a duh question, so I don't know what I may be missing. Thanks.

Thanks
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RyanLester 12 years ago

GUYS.PLEASE.WAKE.UP

This is obviously some company trying to recruit some new members.

PROTECT YOUR BUSINESS I SAY!
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- Kay King 12 years ago
  
  Amen - obvious from the failure to answer the question about it.
  
  Was that email SELLING another autoresponder? Probably. I'd have no use for an autoresponder that promised "you can sell anything here".
  
  I don't think iContact ever encouraged use by IMers in the make money niche. If you are running a business you won't have problems with the others. If you are peddling dreams your problems will only increase in future.
  
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x3xsolxdierx3x

12 years ago

Did you receive that same email from someone who was attempting to sell you on a DIFFERENT company?

...I'd be curious as to what the rest of the email said....

Originally Posted by rambo9600

"I was recommended to a brand new Autoresponder company today because I heard companies like Aweber and iContactnow NO LONGER support "Internet Marketing" type/relatedemail lists..."

I received an email this morning and the above statement was quoted in the email. Is there any truth to this statement at all?

First Google bans affiliates, then Amazon cuts affiliates in many states, then Clickbank cracks down on salespages, then PayPal, Alertpay, and a slew of other payment processors, now the ESP (Electronic Service Providers) like AWeber and iContact.

What the heck is next? :confused:

Can anyone tell me if you've heard any problems with your email service? Thanks.

Thanks
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goagleagle 12 years ago

i baught icontact autoresponder service through REnoX affiliatex campaign, then i started to build my list and then bang! Reno just email me simply saying my icontact is no longer working and i lost all my contact,come on! look this is not serious and it is a dessapointing service, both from reno and icontact. something is going wrong with icontact
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- Paul Myers 12 years ago
  
  Nobody wants to do business with Aweber
  
  Oh? And what do you have to back up that statement?
  
  I've used Aweber for around 10 years, and never had a single person tell me they had any objection to my using the service, or that they wouldn't sign up because of it. And a lot of my subscribers are from outside what you categorize as the "IM" niche.
  
  I've been an active member of an anti-spam community since before Aweber was founded, and I've never heard any of them speak of it as a noticeable source of problem emails.
  
  Do you have any basis at all for this blanket statement?
  
  Paul
  
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  fluffythewondercat 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Oh? And what do you have to back up that statement?
  
  He's got nothing.
  
  His nothingness was just enhanced by referring to PLR as a "spammer and scammer acronym."
  
  fLufF
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ericbryant

12 years ago

AWeber is still cool. Others, as you mentioned, are dropping the IM niche like a hot potato, iContact being one of them.

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rambo9600 12 years ago

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- TestiVar 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by rambo9600
  
  I'm calling my rep today. I would like to know the definition of "Internet Marketing" that these companies are using.
  
  They are using YOUR definition. The problem is that a vast majority of people who use the term "Internet Marketing" are scammers and spammers. If you aren't a scammer and spammer, then you obviously have no desire to associate yourself with the scammers and spammers by calling yourself an "Internet Marketer."
  
  Nobody wants to do business with Aweber because they are overrun by scammers and spammers calling themselves "Internet Marketers." Nobody wants to receive the scams and spams that group sends, so they use other contact management solutions so they aren't associated with that group.
  
  Just call yourself what you are if you aren't associated with SEO, PLR, IM, blog spamming, forum spamming, email spamming, search engine spamming, scam income claims, scam health claim and all of the other rubbish the IM crowd is involved with.
  
  And don't use the hosting companies, contact management companies, registrars or other vendors that they use. Use the ones that legitimate business owners use.
  
  Thanks
  
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  rambo9600 12 years ago
  
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  TestiVar 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by rambo9600
  
  I thought AWeber had one of the highest deliverability rates in the industry. Are you saying use someone like Constant Contact?
  
  I'm saying that you shouldn't copy scammers and spammers who call themselves "Internet marketers."
  
  Think of a respectable company that has never once called themselves an IM, never mentioned SEO, PLR, OTO, OBL or any of the other scammer and spammer acronyms.
  
  What do they use? Use that!
  
  If you sleep with dogs...
  
  Thanks
  
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  joseph7384 12 years ago
  
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  REHughes 12 years ago
  
  It seems like last year there was a certain clique of gurus and mega gurus who got on a kick with this "Death of XYZ" messages. IT seems that every time they would find a unique twist to something that already worked, they were ready to "out" the last method, and call it something new!
  It seems there was 1 or 2 especially sharp guys, on the cutting edge, nearly brilliant in their ability to combine unique techniques, or find obscure methods few had hardly ever mentioned, to upscale their marketing efforts.
  And as soon as their latest and greatest product on said new method was released, well all of their good ole' boy affiliates got their copy & paste e-mails, and all of a sudden "everything" was no longer working - it was DEAD!
  And, of course, within hours, the proverbial "The British Are Coming" cry was heard all over this forum.
  And it still rings true today.
  Thank goodness for the "Unsubscribe" buttons in my emails.
  I am afraid too many new marketers see these messages from these well-known figures and immediately recry the alarm, thinking they are being truthful.
  It is sad that such marketers, as brilliant as they seem to be, and after having had so much to offer, have sold out integrity to the almighty dollar.:confused:
  I'm not saying they all have, but just follow some of the 7 and 8 figure marketers a while -you'll see what I mean.
  One reason I am so careful about what conversations I join in here as I try to just stay to the side and learn as the masters step in and eloquently address these issues.
  Thanks to all of you, you know who you are.
  
  Robert
  
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jasmeek 12 years ago

Originally Posted by ericbryant

AWeber is still cool. Others, as you mentioned, are dropping the IM niche like a hot potato, iContact being one of them.

I'm a user of AWeber, is this info still the same as of ytd??
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Kenny T

12 years ago

Well I haven't received any updates from aweber regarding this and I believe they will allow this marketing because this is a very lucrative sector of their business as a lot of IMers use Aweber for their mailing usage.

Thanks

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Ryan David

12 years ago

It's probably not true, but I wouldn't be surprised the closer you are to "biz op", the more scrutiny you can expect.

Thanks

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jamesrich1

12 years ago

I haven't heard this but wouldn't be surprised if more and more companies back away from the make money claims like Google adwords dropped the make money niche.

Its scammy when money claims are being made by a bunch of people not making any real money. That's fraudulent and finally big companies are saying ENOUGH. If your not doing that then sign up with Aweber or Icontact. I use Aweber and would never switch.

I am also not sending out emails or broadcasts with "How To Make $15,000 a Day, Starting Today Using The Magic X Google Bot Override Software," when I have not made anywhere close to $15k a day.

Thanks

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kolled

12 years ago

This "I heard", "he said", "she said" is becoming too much. My inbox is full of fresh emails streaming in from Internet Marketers. Furthermore, when I check the said sites, I can't see anything saying that internet marketers are no longer welcome. People should provide links to a verifiable source instead of quoting unsubstantiated sources.

Thanks

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Entrecon

12 years ago

Did you hear your mother us no longer recognizing people who do IM? According to this email I just received you are going to have to find a new mother. The good news is that the person who sent me the email has a service where I can get a new mother at a low monthly rate!

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Hayley McKeever

12 years ago

I use both Aweber & iContact and haven't heard anything about this. Sounds like a sales pitch to set you up with another company.

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Exel

12 years ago

If I started a thread every time I had heard some rumor like this I'd be the #1 poster on WF.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

If I started a thread every time I had heard some rumor like this I'd be the #1 poster on WF.

You'd be up there, for sure.

What gets me are the posts saying things like, "I've heard this before, so there must be something to it." That has to be somewhere on the list of "Top Ten Signs You Don't Understand the Internet."

For those who're new to this thing, here's my latest article, written just this minute:

"How gossip becomes Gospel"

Someone says something shocking or surprising, usually about an established person or company.
People post speculation and/or possible explanations for the thing.
The thing gets repeated, and more people add their assumptions.
Anyone questioning the assertions is derided as a "sheep" or accused of being involved in some conspiracy to hide "The Truth."
People start posting links from one thread or post to another, as "proof."
The original poster starts to believe their own press, and becomes an evangelist.
The cycle repeats.
A new mini-meme is established, through nothing more than repetition and gullibility.

[End of article. Author's credit goes here.]

Paul
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NACAdam

12 years ago

nope nope nope ... Don't expose your self to fear based news ...Also you can always switch services if this does ever happen

Thanks

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BaStanel

12 years ago

well,what can i say...i'm really confident in these services...you can make alot of money if you know how to use them

Thanks

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thekaver

12 years ago

Originally Posted by rambo9600

"I was recommended to a brand new Autoresponder company today because I heard companies like Aweber and iContactnow NO LONGER support "Internet Marketing" type/relatedemail lists..."

I received an email this morning and the above statement was quoted in the email. Is there any truth to this statement at all?

First Google bans affiliates, then Amazon cuts affiliates in many states, then Clickbank cracks down on salespages, then PayPal, Alertpay, and a slew of other payment processors, now the ESP (Electronic Service Providers) like AWeber and iContact.

What the heck is next? :confused:

Can anyone tell me if you've heard any problems with your email service? Thanks.

my guess is it was a sales email from someone looking to make an affiliate commission. But i agree with what you saying. Whats next

.

They to many scammers in this industry and its the good guys like us that suffer.

thanks

TheKaver

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SamJ

12 years ago

Read the iContact AUP. The only thing that comes close is:

pyramid schemes, multi-level channel and/or network marketing opportunities, including, but not limited to personal work-at-home offers promoting "get rich quick," "build your wealth," and "financial independence" offerings;

That's pretty standard and doesn't even describe most IM (in fact, it even allows lots of shady internet marketing). Treat your customers well and with respect and you'll be fine.

Thanks

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BDubbels

12 years ago

I have heard these rumors, but I'm fairly certain they are just that... rumors.

One thing I have noticed in my time as a postmaster though is common poor delivery for anyone doing hardcore affiliate promotion. If you're promoting someone else's product, chances are there are hundreds of others doing the same. Many of who most likely do not stick to best mailing practices. Which causes the domain to be dragged through the mud and coming out with a very poor reputation. Then anyone mailing with that domain in the message body get's sent to spam most of the time.

This makes guys like us in the ESP biz hesitant to accept anyone who doesn't have the strictest of affiliate programs. BUT there is a way around the listing (and this is why I think it's all just a rumor)

Generally what I do (and I'm sure the other ESPs do as well) for any clients who are having delivery issues because of domain names with bad reputations is setting up a blog to review the affiliate offers they promote and then ensure that only they mail about this domain which has links to the products they are promoting.

The extra click required to get to a product page for the recipient does decrease conversion a little bit but the added delivery advantage more then makes up for that and generally allows for optimal delivery/conversions on campaigns that would typically otherwise end up in the spam box.

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Randall Magwood

12 years ago

I wouldn't believe it... until/unless it actually comes to pass.

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by rambo9600

"I was recommended to a brand new Autoresponder company today because I heard companies like Aweber and iContactnow NO LONGER support "Internet Marketing" type/relatedemail lists..."

How silly. Let me guess. The company trying to sell you the new autoresponder suggested that Aweber and iContact no longer support Internet Marketing.

Thanks

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Rod Cortez

12 years ago

Originally Posted by rambo9600

"I was recommended to a brand new Autoresponder company today because I heard companies like Aweber and iContactnow NO LONGER support "Internet Marketing" type/relatedemail lists..."

I received an email this morning and the above statement was quoted in the email. Is there any truth to this statement at all?

First Google bans affiliates, then Amazon cuts affiliates in many states, then Clickbank cracks down on salespages, then PayPal, Alertpay, and a slew of other payment processors, now the ESP (Electronic Service Providers) like AWeber and iContact.

What the heck is next? :confused:

Can anyone tell me if you've heard any problems with your email service? Thanks.

Ah, the age old tactic of using fear to drive you to someone's product or service. It's worked for thousands of years, so I don't see it's use in the decline.

First off, like many have already mentioned, those autoresponder companies you just mentioned are not against "internet marketing" per se. They are against individuals / products / services/ that don't provide VALUE or are "risky" in their own assessment to do business with.

Something else to think about: the term "internet marketing" is so general and generic that it encompasses a whole slew of industries, including the hybrid models that also utilize offline and/or mobile marketing methods.

Here's what I DO see happening.

There's a civil war going on right now and those that are paying attention have seen this coming for years. I'm over-simplifying, but in a nutshell, there's a war going on, directly and indirectly, between legitimate online marketers and those trying to make quick buck, whether intentionally or not.

And yes, there are going to be some innocent people and organizations caught in the cross fire.

So while this whole fear-based e-mail about autoresponders isn't remotely true, it should make everyone take a step back and look at what kind of business they are building.

Are they bringing REAL value to their customers? Do their websites have the correct privacy policies, terms of services, disclaimers, etc. to ensure that their website is in compliance? Do their products / services deliver on any written / verbal promises made? Etc., etc. etc......

The real question everyone should be asking is this: are you building a real business that provides value that would allow your company to sustain it's profits for the long haul?

Lastly, don't forget to back up your lists. Daily.

RoD

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Rod,

There's a civil war going on right now and those that are paying attention have seen this coming for years.

And no-one believed it.

It's actually been going on for at least 15 years, but at the guerilla level. Back in the daze of whackamole spammers, when you could report most of the dorks and get them removed from their hosting.

A lot of this stuff is obvious. I predicted botnets way back when I saw my first virus that spread by email. The next generation of that one will be using those compromised Wordpress blogs to set up an even more powerful array of machines for whatever purpose someone is willing to pay to have done. Spamming, DDoS attacks, cracking systems... whatever.

The nastiness possible with the various permutations of compromised user machines and net-bound servers is mind-boggling.

That's just a small part of the unreservedly evil crap.

We delete hundreds of spams from cookie stuffers every day, just on this forum. Then there are the link spammers - blogs, forum and social networking profiles, posts in discussion threads... All for the benefit of thieves who think it's okay to destroy someone else's property if it gets them just a tiny bit more link juice with the Almighty Google.

Then the lying sacks of it who pay someone on Fiverr to read a fake testimonial on video. Or who create shill accounts to slander their competition in review sites and forums.

Or the mindless leeches who steal other people's content and "spin" it, posting dozens, or hundreds, of copies around the web, screwing up searches for people who actually want useful information. Or worse, who use it "as is," except for stealing the creators' attribution.

CPA "promoters" who plug hidden/fraudulent negative option rebills are right up there, too.

And the pirates. They want to pretend the law doesn't apply to them, let them take it the whole way. Let them handle being "educated" by the people whose businesses they're trying to destroy.

"Scumbag, meet Louis V Slugger. Louis V, meet Scumbag's knees."

This war has been going on for years. It's just gotten so big, especially with the spread of "outsourcing" and "automation," that it's now an existential threat to many online businesses.

Paul
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David Keith

12 years ago

Hey Paul, sounds like you need a drink my friend before you through a rod.

But you are exactly right. The sad part is that the IM industry has played a major part in perpetuating many of these problems. It's certainly not just the IM industry, but they do play a major role in spreading much of the evil stuff.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

David,

Hey Paul, sounds like you need a drink my friend before you through a rod.

Huh? That's just the objective view. You don't want to know how I really feel about these folks. I could let loose enough vitriol for them, without even getting annoyed over it, that I'd have to ban myself.

But you are exactly right. The sad part is that the IM industry has played a major part in perpetuating many of these problems.

The sleazy side of whatever you mean by "the IM industry," sure. That's a relatively small part of the people who sell online, though. They're supported by powerful computers, low-cost bandwidth, unscrupulous programmers, cheap human automation in some eastern countries, and a whole lot of buyers who want instant results without asking who has to be damaged in the process.

And they're the loudest ones when the screaming starts over account closures, or new rules against promotion in discussion/social media channels.

Accurate words would exceed acceptable limits for this forum.

Paul
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Rod Cortez

12 years ago

You're right Paul, it's been going on for years. And a lot of this stuff is quite obvious. What scares the bejeezus outta me is the stuff that isn't obvious and, more so, the stuff that is so subtle that even the hired hackers that the Feds hire have a trouble keeping up with it.

We delete hundreds of spams from cookie stuffers every day, just on this forum. Then there are the link spammers - blogs, forum and social networking profiles, posts in discussion threads... All for the benefit of thieves who think it's okay to destroy someone else's property if it gets them just a tiny bit more link juice with the Almighty Google.

I wish everyone in this forum would read this, it's gives a microcosm of what goes on in here and it doesn't begin to capture the stuff that happens behind-the-scenes.

From my way of thinking this is actually quite sad. All this energy and all this effort going into ripping people off, telling lies, etc......if that energy was focused on doing something positive, building a REAL business from the ground up, providing value, and focusing on the Long Term Value of the customer (the LTV), it's actually easier to make a profit.

But too many people out there are looking for that short cut because they've been led or educated to think that way OR they've simply decided "if I can't beat them, I'm going to join them....", though they don't realize they've chosen the wrong team.

RoD

Originally Posted by David Keith

Hey Paul, sounds like you need a drink my friend before you through a rod.

But you are exactly right. The sad part is that the IM industry has played a major part in perpetuating many of these problems. It's certainly not just the IM industry, but they do play a major role in spreading much of the evil stuff.

Speaking of drinks...I've got my bottle of 1942 Don Julio Anejo right here. It's been quite a day!

Rod

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JohnDBrewer

12 years ago

I want to thank you all for continuing this Thread to get clarification. I started this thread earlier in the day and was going to PM Paul to make sure that I was not misunderstanding. I am grateful that you guys are constantly trying to get any and all misinformation cleared up.

I do want to ask: Is there anything along the line of this thread that I missed going on in the IM industry? I am new and I want to make sure i am not walking into the IM niche if I am going to run into road blocks.

Thanks Paul and Rod and others that help to clear up misinformation.

John

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Rod Cortez

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnDBrewer

I want to thank you all for continuing this Thread to get clarification. I started this thread earlier in the day and was going to PM Paul to make sure that I was not misunderstanding. I am grateful that you guys are constantly trying to get any and all misinformation cleared up.

I do want to ask: Is there anything along the line of this thread that I missed going on in the IM industry? I am new and I want to make sure i am not walking into the IM niche if I am going to run into road blocks.

Thanks Paul and Rod and others that help to clear up misinformation.

John

John,

That's quite a general question. I could write a long novel on what someone could potentially be missing in the "IM industry" because there are so many business models and ways to monetize that it would be dangerous to begin to summarize it.

If I had to summarize something to someone who was starting in IM it would have to be something along these lines:

* Don't think of IM as "tactics" or "techniques", but think of it is in "business principles" because those NEVER go out of style. For example, should you build a HTML-based website? Should it be Wordpress? Drupal? Something else?

And should you buy any plug-ins that go with it?

Well, if you had a BASIC business plan, which would encompass intensive market research, you would obtain the answers to that ONE question.

I've been at this for over a decade, Paul Myers has been at it much longer. If there's anything I've learned over the years is this: focusing on fundamentals and executing on your business plan is going to keep you focused on achieving your financial goals. Anyone who tells you differently is selling you snake oil because this goes against the fundamental financial laws of the Universe.

Yes, that sounds cheesy. And when I was in my 20s I would have told anyone who said that to "pound sand". But now I'm in my 40s, and life and business experience across several industries has taught me that this is a universal truth.

And 50 different markets later, it has proven itself over time and time again....

RoD

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

John,

Someone asked me yesterday why we would allow this sort of thread on this forum. The answer was simple: It's going to happen somewhere. Better to let it happen here when there are rational voices keeping it within sane bounds than to chase it off to somewhere where the whole thing will consist of irrational conspiracy theories and drooling rants.

If it had gotten out of control, and the loonies had decided to pound it incessantly, I'd have locked it and cleaned out the crazy, or just nuked it.

Posting legitimate concerns, even if ill-founded and poorly-phrased (which not all of them were, by a good measure) is one thing. Mindless bashing is something else entirely.

As far as "getting into IM" ... That's a nearly meaningless acronym/phrase. Promote your own products or others' products that deliver real value to real businesses and you'll be fine.

Paul
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JohnDBrewer

12 years ago

Rod,

Thank you for answering my post. I know that my question was general and I am sorry because I could not think of a way to make it more specific. I read through the forum and am still learning to distinguish fact from fear. I was on the forum when all the autoresponders went down and I have heard about Paypal lockdowns and what not, so when I read something like this thread, I really want to know how to determine truth and move forward with it.

I am building HTML based websites and blogs to compliment them. I am still trying to figure out which plug-ins are essential and which ones are not.

I am currently looking at doing some ezine ads or solo ads but not sure how to proceed. I am not a great copywriter and so i will be looking for someone to do that for me when I do the ads. Got any suggestions?

Have you heard of Opt-In Solo Ads | Solo Ad | Solo Email Advertising I am considering using them for the solo ads due to cost. I have also found Reed Floren's solo ad directory.

Thanks for the advice.

John

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Rod Cortez

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnDBrewer

Rod,

Thank you for answering my post. I know that my question was general and I am sorry because I could not think of a way to make it more specific. I read through the forum and am still learning to distinguish fact from fear. I was on the forum when all the autoresponders went down and I have heard about Paypal lockdowns and what not, so when I read something like this thread, I really want to know how to determine truth and move forward with it.

As the Terminator would say "no problemo".

If you read every single post in the most recent Paypal threads you'd see that:

1. Paypal is NOT the only choice for accepting payments. But you'd also know that....

2. There are ways to keep Paypal happy.

3. Even if Paypal stated they are done with you, there's an APPEAL process.

I am building HTML based websites and blogs to compliment them. I am still trying to figure out which plug-ins are essential and which ones are not.

It's difficult to answer that because A TON of people are doing what you are doing. And they fall into 3 camps:

1. Those that are just putting up a bunch of mud and seeing what sticks.

2. Those that are trying to "trick" Google and the other SEs..

3. Those that have a solid business plan and have a STRATEGIC way to give their visitors value...

I am currently looking at doing some ezine ads or solo ads but not sure how to proceed. I am not a great copywriter and so i will be looking for someone to do that for me when I do the ads. Got any suggestions?

Ezine and solo ads are very tricky. In 1995-2002 they were pretty easy home runs, today..not so much. As far as copy writers go there are a TON of wannabe who have NO references. So when you hire a copy writer don't be AFRAID to ask for them.

Google "Make Your Words Sell" and down load the free copy of the late Joe Robson's copywriting guide. It's the BEST guide I've ever seen under $30 bucks and guess what? It's free now. If you read it (granted it's long and quite detailed but....) and implement it you'll be light years ahead of most IMers. I'm not kidding..

Have you heard of Opt-In Solo Ads | Solo Ad | Solo Email Advertising I am considering using them for the solo ads due to cost. I have also found Reed Floren's solo ad directory.

Thanks for the advice.

John

Hmmm, never heard of them.

RoD "Don-Julio-Tequila-1942-Is-My-Friend" CorteZ

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magnus1

12 years ago

Dunno if this is related but did anyone try adding a new email into their autoresponder today? I'm getting 10.0 spam level!! I'm not even promoting anything and my level is always 0. Frustrating!

Michelle

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REHughes

12 years ago

Originally Posted by magnus1

Dunno if this is related but did anyone try adding a new email into their autoresponder today? I'm getting 10.0 spam level!! I'm not even promoting anything and my level is always 0. Frustrating!
Michelle

Michelle,
For some reason I have noticed that if I hyperlink anything in Aweber, it will give me a score of 20 every time as of lately.
It hadn't been doing this until about the last 3 months.
But I still test the message on 5 or 6 test e-mail accounts and have never had one go to the spam folder.
I dunno what's happening with these.

Robert

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David Keith

12 years ago

Originally Posted by REHughes

Michelle,
For some reason I have noticed that if I hyperlink anything in Aweber, it will give me a score of 20 every time as of lately.
It hadn't been doing this until about the last 3 months.
But I still test the message on 5 or 6 test e-mail accounts and have never had one go to the spam folder.
I dunno what's happening with these.

Robert

Try linking to a different domain as a test. Aweber does use a blacklist system that will instantly make things as spam if they contain certain urls that are blacklisted.

It even goes to the ip level for those on shared hosts. If your hosting ip is blackllisted, aweber will often rate all domains on that server as instant spam triggers.

This is also common with new(ish) domains.

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Joseph,

Ignore him. He says a lot, but he doesn't back up even the specific allegations when asked.

We can all agree, I think, that there are big problems in the industry. The real difference is, who's looking at it objectively and in ways that lead toward solutions, and who's just griping for the sake of feeling righteous.

Paul