$1.25 Per 500 Words? REALLY?!

35 replies
Hey,

So, I've been looking around to get some writing gigs and when I went to Freelancer.com I almost fell of my cozy computer chair...

...the "going" rate per a 500 word article was $1.25 - $3.

In fact, I've not seen anything paying more than $3 per 500 words.

They obviously wanted "highest quality", "well researched", all that jazz...

What's wrong with these people? Do they really think they'll get something usable at that rate?

What do you guys think?
#$125 #500 #articles #words
  • Profile picture of the author dadamson
    The problem is that you get lots of people in poorer countries willing to work harder for the less money than you might be willing to work for.

    The upside for you is that the vast majority of these people do not have English as their first language, so the quality of your writing will be a lot better than them.

    However I have found writers that can do high quality correct grammar articles with research on the product for $5-$6, probably still less than what you are thinking of charging.

    If you take your online skills to the offline market you can often charge a lot more for this work, up to $20-$25 easily for a 500 word well-written article.
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  • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
    True that. I am wondering how much quality those people expect, though. It's crazy.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author WebPen
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        With all due respect to writers on the forum, it's arrogant presumption on anyone's part to assume that the quality of one's writing is based on price or native language.

        The main reason you see prices so low is the disparity among global economies. As to the quality - that's subjective and not something you can easily stereotype.

        Does every American write as well as a Stephen King? Of course not. I've reviewed writing by professionals with post-graduate educations who write far worse than most non-native speakers I know.

        Just as there are good and bad writers in the US, UK, etc., the same applies to these folks writing for pennies.

        Simple analogy - I can go to Stickley's and purchase a hand crafted set of table and chairs for $5K. I can have the exact same thing made here in Greece for $1,250. Absolutely no difference in the quality or materials - the craftsmanship for either is exceptional.

        The point to really understand is that it's not a market you should be trying to compete in, if you're not able to compete at those prices. Instead, focus on developing a customer base of folks looking for something more.
        Obviously this goes both ways. You hear horror stories of someone who paid $5 or $10/100 words for complete GARBAGE.

        On the other side, you have native English speakers who are GOOD writers charging $.80/100 words just to get lots of business.

        I guess what I- and maybe BIG Mike- is trying to say is that there's more to it than just price.

        You can market your services better- this is something most people don't do.

        I mean, offline businesses will pay $97 for a good press release EASY. Or to write solid content for their website? You can charge much higher prices if you deal with them directly than if you only market to IMers or the offline company's SEO guy.

        I've heard of people who get $600 for ONE article.

        Why?

        -Marketing
        -Confidence
        -Testimonials
        -Reputation
        etc.

        That's why I've recently increased my prices BIG time. I'm going to market my services, and maybe even set up an affiliate program.

        Don't get into a price battle with overseas workers- it's like trying to go cheaper than Wal-Mart.

        Sell Coach purses- not Wal-Mart purses.

        Price high, then justify.
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      • Profile picture of the author jessiepadgal
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        With all due respect to writers on the forum, it's arrogant presumption on anyone's part to assume that the quality of one's writing is based on price or native language.

        The main reason you see prices so low is the disparity among global economies. As to the quality - that's subjective and not something you can easily stereotype.

        Does every American write as well as a Stephen King? Of course not. I've reviewed writing by professionals with post-graduate educations who write far worse than most non-native speakers I know.

        Just as there are good and bad writers in the US, UK, etc., the same applies to these folks writing for pennies.

        Simple analogy - I can go to Stickley's and purchase a hand crafted set of table and chairs for $5K. I can have the exact same thing made here in Greece for $1,250. Absolutely no difference in the quality or materials - the craftsmanship for either is exceptional.

        The point to really understand is that it's not a market you should be trying to compete in, if you're not able to compete at those prices. Instead, focus on developing a customer base of folks looking for something more.
        Just because someone is not native doesn't mean that they can't write, and the converse is also true...

        I have a degree-holding Filipino writer that writes near-perfect English. I gave her a trial period of several months and paid per article, and worked with her to improve her writing. I have her taking classes, and I pay her for that time. Now, I am going to start her on salary at a rate that is extremely affordable for me and allows her to live very well in her country.

        Sure, I charge much more for my own writing, but I pay her above-market rates for her own writing, too. I pay her based on what she needs to live (plus the to live comfortably factor) and, hey, that's also how I factor my rates...different markets, different cost of living...

        Not everything is so black and white as so many would believe.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
    I think if people are willing to charge that amount and people are willing to pay it then all good and fine
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  • Profile picture of the author dadamson
    Yea, you will always be beat on price in the content writing industry.

    My advice would be to focus on quality and/or certain writing styles or categories to really refine your art to one sector.
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  • Profile picture of the author gcbmark20
    I suppose for that price you can afford to at least try these guys out first. May just try them out myself thanks for the tip.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

    Hey,

    So, I've been looking around to get some writing gigs and when I went to Freelancer.com I almost fell of my cozy computer chair...

    ...the "going" rate per a 500 word article was $1.25 - $3.

    In fact, I've not seen anything paying more than $3 per 500 words.

    They obviously wanted "highest quality", "well researched", all that jazz...

    What's wrong with these people? Do they really think they'll get something usable at that rate?

    What do you guys think?
    Your targetting the wrong audience. The people who pay those amounts of money aren't looking to create a high quality user experience. They are looking for semi-ledgible, actually make that quasi-ledgible trash to clog up the internet with for backlinks.

    If you want better paying clients, market yourself to those of us who practice content syndication and actually care about providing a high quality user experience. In other words, seek out clients who appreciate the value of a talented writer.

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    After years of reading the theory, I'm finally getting it into my head that you don't have to price yourself low to get clients.

    Don't worry about those companies charging lower-than-dirt cheap prices. You can still get tons of clients by charging higher prices-

    And the quality of your clients will be higher too.

    Will you lose some business to the cheaper companies? Yes, definitely.

    But which would you rather do-

    Make $300 by writing 10,000 words
    Or make $300 by writing 30,000 words

    Just play on your strengths- mention that you're a native English speaker. If you have a college degree, put that in there too.

    Include testimonials from happy clients. Offer samples of your work.

    Believe me, it works.
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  • Profile picture of the author MoneySavingLisa
    Seriously?! I just started out and I am averaging $0.80 per 100 words for a 500 word article, but that's only because I use Fiverr and they take a dollar off the top. I'd make more on Odesk or else where, but I'm still building my online portfolio so I don't expect to make much yet since I've started offering my services. And, I'm a native english speaker LOL!
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Warriors
    You have to look at it this way. Those rates do seem low, but look at the nature of the product your employer is looking for. They don't require that you interview subjects and quote them as sources. They don't expect you to provide expert level analysis. Hell, like 60% of the time, they probably don't even care how readable the article is, as long as it has the relevant keywords for their SEO campaign.

    The bottom line is that internet marketers aren't really an acceptable market for writers who insist on writing articles. You can find internet marketers who'll pay decently for press releases, squeeze pages and sales pages, but articles? If you're absolutely hall bent on the idea of writing articles, you have to pitch to real publications (i.e. trade magazines or very large blogs). Otherwise, read up on "copywriting."
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    • Profile picture of the author deejones
      Originally Posted by Andy Button View Post

      The bottom line is that internet marketers aren't really an acceptable market for writers who insist on writing articles. You can find internet marketers who'll pay decently for press releases, squeeze pages and sales pages, but articles? If you're absolutely hall bent on the idea of writing articles, you have to pitch to real publications (i.e. trade magazines or very large blogs). Otherwise, read up on "copywriting."
      I think there are plenty of Internet Marketers willing to pay well for good articles. They're just hard to see past all the "$2 per 500 words" folks.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheArticlePros
    I've said this on other threads, but when I started writing articles last year, the first place I went to was vWorker.com. (I looked at Elance and oDesk, but I didn't like having to pay to bid. vWorker is free for the workers all the way through the process.) I saw the same things you're talking about with the low bids, but I had no rep so I went with it. I skipped the really low-balled jobs and got some medium-range bids by asking questions and harping on the fact that I was born and raised in the US and English is my primary language.

    After 5-10 jobs with perfect 10 ratings, my prices rose. When I quit writing articles (it's a pain in the @$$ writing about stuff I don't care about LOL), I was making $15 for a 1000 word article that I could write in 30 minutes. At that price, I was getting orders in batches of 10-20 articles at a time.

    As with any business, don't worry about the "el-cheapos" who are undercutting you. Stick to your guns, always offer the highest quality possible, and market yourself. You'll come out ahead.

    -- j
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  • Profile picture of the author NiallR
    Hi,

    Full-time writer here who has also handled outsourcing to writers in the past.

    The main problem with people advertising writing rates like that is it's promoted and supported by many people in the IM industry "...you'll get a writer for $2 for a 500-word article".... so that's what they charge. It's like some awful self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Ignore those offers - if you get into the mindset of working for pennies it's very hard to get out of it. There are plenty of better paying jobs on Elance and in other places. You can earn more than that writing on the WF - a lot more.

    You won't get beat out by cheaper writers every single time - I don't. In fact I have more and more people coming to me to get me to tidy up the work done by cheaper writers. Believe me a $2 article looks and reads exactly like a $2 article - crap. Barely legible in most cases - this stuff wouldn't pass the first 3-seconds of a Google manual review process!

    Get yourself set up with a writing WSO, write some samples for your portfolio (health, wealth, love, technology, real estate - those 5 should cover it) and advertise an introductory writing offer for say 400 words for $5.

    That will generate some income for you and you can ask for reviews of your work too - just make sure all your writing work is presented and finished as well as it possibly can be. Most customers love the informal/coffee table style of writing - it really speaks to their readers, engages them and keeps them reading.

    Now once you have some reviews set up simply increase your 400-word writing rate to say $7. And again once you have a volume of business you can quite comfortably increase it to $10 for 400-words - if your writing is good enough.

    The same process applies to Elance and anywhere else that offers writing gigs - get a volume of business and increase your prices.

    And remember one thing about writing - if it was so easy everyone would be doing it themselves. Writing great content is something that you're born with and also takes practice to refine so you can write as fluidly as you think. So don't ever let anyone devalue a skill that you have, they need (quite badly) and if they're not willing to pay for it....well.....after the last Panda update there'll be a lot more people looking for high quality writers ;-)

    You have a valuable skill because most people hate writing - set your prices based on that :-)

    PS Any typos are due to the fact I'm trying to pack for a flight right now.
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  • Profile picture of the author vic alexander
    I have seen people on fiverr for a dollar for some graphic design. No kidding. yes they have been from poorer regions.
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    Vic Alexander

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    • Profile picture of the author Palusko
      At least they get a dollar. There are sites where designers bit against each other and the customer chooses just one winner - so you may end up working for nothing at all most of the time. Forget the rules about down payments, revisions etc. These people voluntarily opt not to get paid for their work, even if their work is good - just not as good as someone else. How crazy is that?
      Originally Posted by v4victoria View Post

      I have seen people on fiverr for a dollar for some graphic design. No kidding. yes they have been from poorer regions.
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      • Profile picture of the author cashp0wer
        I just don't understand how anyone can expect high quality written articles for this price. I use to write articles for a living and charged much more than this. My clients were willing to pay for my writing, however, because they were well-researched and high quality articles.
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        • Profile picture of the author Curtis2011
          This thread:

          1. Writers bitching about employers hiring cheap laborers.

          2. Employers defending their practice of hiring cheap laborers.

          3. Very few writers that are bitching seem to understand that the difference in cost of living between countries means that $1.50 per article in the USA might be the equivalent of $50 per article in the Philippines/India/Thailand/Wherever.

          4. Very few bitching writers seem to understand that there are plenty of third-world denizens that grow up speaking English and have just as high mastery of the language as they do; albeit perhaps without an understanding of American linguistic mannerisms.

          I gotta give the argument to the employers on this one, especially considering the OP was just a writer bitching about employers hiring laborers at $1.25 an article, despite the fact that the writers providing those $1.25 articles are doing so willingly and thus 50% of the "blame" for the situation should fall on them.

          IMHO a lot of the writers in this thread are feeling way too threatened by the existence of cheap third-world writers. The reality is that cheap writers serve a different customer than expensive writers, as someone above me mentioned his "high end" clients that pay $500+ for a single article.

          Instead of complaining in here about employers hiring cheap writers, I think the writers should be focusing on finding new clients that have lots of money to throw around, instead of going to poor employers (ie people looking for the lowest prices possible) and asking "WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO SPEND MORE MONEY!?!"


          tl;dr: Third-world writers are the "Wal-Mart" of the writing world, whereas first-world writers are the "Neiman Marcus" of the writing world. They both serve two different clientele (employers with high budgets vs. employers with low budgets).
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  • Profile picture of the author Curtis2011
    Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

    What's wrong with these people? Do they really think they'll get something usable at that rate?

    What do you guys think?
    There are many countries with costs of living that are absurdly low compared to more developed countries like the USA. As an example, I have a friend right now who is living in Thailand. She currently pays something like $60 a month for all of her rent and utilities where she is living. In the USA a comparable bill would be something like $600-800 a month. So her cost of living is literally around 10% of people in more developed countries.

    And many of these low cost of living countries happen to have many English speakers living in them, who write as freelancers.

    To them, $1.25 for a 500 word article may be a great deal.
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    • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
      Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

      What's wrong with these people?
      They don't understand that succeeding online means building a business. Whether they've been told how easy it is by some "guru" or they just don't take the process seriously because they're working at home in their PJ's, they think it's perfectly acceptable to cut corners because they work online. Amazingly, they still think they're going to make money.

      Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

      Do they really think they'll get something usable at that rate?
      No. But they don't much care. Typically, these kinds of buyers think that they can use all kinds of optimization "tools" to get around the fact that their content is lousy. It's nothing more than gaming the system, and, thankfully, Google is starting to do something about it.

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      With all due respect to writers on the forum, it's arrogant presumption on anyone's part to assume that the quality of one's writing is based on price or native language.
      You're absolutely right, Mike. Just because someone charges $25, $50, or $100 doesn't make them a good writer. Or, just because they live in an English-speaking country doesn't mean they're a good writer.

      Writing takes a combination of natural talent and proper education. It's no different than any other industry. As much as I'd love to be a professional baseball player, I don't have the raw ability to do it. I could take classes till the cows come home and watch videos of other baseball players to mimic their techniques, but at the end of the day, I still won't be able to do it.

      That's why it's so important to do your homework before you hire a writer - and make sure they have the background and the expertise to command a higher price.
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  • Profile picture of the author jpeddler
    By any chance has anyone considered the concept that a very good writer can also be a superior salesperson?

    There must be something to the way I do business too – since I’ve been a professional writer since 1972. I never have a shortage of work or clients. And this is very much my business - it doesn't get treated as freelance work.

    I don't "freelance" anything.

    I have been reading and writing about this topic on the WF – I think I will continue with my comments …

    As long as the world of the WF, Odesk, Elance, etc. are among the venues you use to establish pricing – you will remain in the lowest tier of earners.

    People in the above-mentioned venues (and many others) aren’t going to value your content as much as people that are serious businesspeople – online and offline.

    You see - most of the people wanting to go on-the-cheap for content won’t last in this business – they are hobbyists. This is sad but true fact.

    These “marketers” can spout all the nonsense they want about third-world writers being as good as native English-speakers.

    Crap – pure crap.

    They have never been as good - and never will be! Those of you that know better can post all that nonsense about global economic costs of living and how this affects the pricing and value of content.

    If I wanted a constant stream of cheap articles, I might be trying to convince you of these same things.

    But it would be more crap.

    And I base this assessment on comparing very average English writers against the very best, PUBLISHED third-world writers.

    No contest – it isn’t even close. I can spot third-world writers by the second paragraph of whatever it is they think they can write.

    Many here would have you believe this is the face of your competition – and that is a blatant lie.

    So let me tell you what my clients say:

    NO THIRD-WORLD WRITERS NEED APPLY OR MAKE A SUBMISSION OF ANY KIND!

    This is their law – not mine, but I agree with it 100%. If I can spot the third-world writing - you can bet they can too. Of more value, they know the readers can spot it.

    So their work is rejected immediately. Sorry, this is just the way it is in the real world.

    If you have solid, unique or original writing – are you going to sell it for the same price at Wally World as you would at Neiman Marcus?

    Does this necessarily mean your writing is better than that of everyone else?

    Nope – it may not be. This isn't meant for those of you that treat the business of writing as a hobby - or that are just beginning your careers. You do have to have some skills.

    Yet, on the other hand, your work may be obscenely good.

    This single thing makes me nuts about nearly all writers that have their focus on online writing:

    YOU ARE NOT IN A PRISON FOR WRITERS!

    You can sell your stuff anywhere you want – based on however good your prospects think your work is – and for whatever you want to sell it for.

    But you had better be good. If you are, get out of these “bargain basements” and get “real” value for your work.

    Are you good – I mean really good – above and beyond what you see written elsewhere?

    Prove it!

    Ask for the business elsewhere – stop waiting on people here or other forums to toss you scraps.

    Take your stuff and approach offliners and onliners and show them what you’ve got – on your terms and according to your pricing scale – not what everyone here tells you it is worth.

    And price it freaking HIGH! You don’t know how high up is until you take it to the “wild extreme.”

    You folks are making judgments based on a “flea market” mentality of pricing, as it relates to buying and selling nearly EVERYTHING having to do with online sales.

    But here’s the biggest deal for you writers:

    Without content, NOTHING - ZERO can happen on the internet. The most basic building blocks – the ones that last in perpetuity – are the words in articles, ebooks, copy, sales letters and a host of other products.

    There is a HUGE world outside of the WF, Odesk, Elance, etc. And they pay lots and lots of money for great content.

    Those of you that are writers have allowed yourself to be brainwashed into believing your good work is worth pennies instead of the dollars those same efforts can bring.

    Instead of seeking what the going rates online are – take your skills elsewhere. The WF is only a microcosm of the world that buys content.

    Condition yourselves to ask: how high can I price my work? Ask: how valuable is this?

    - instead of –

    Gee, I wonder if someone will steal this from me for $5. It is an entirely different paradigm and I encourage all of you to apply it.

    I am certain there are exceptions to the sale and purchasing of services and goods in the WF, but this is the problem with this discussion.

    EVERYONE is talking about EXCEPTIONS & what your content is worth to those that want to spend as little as possible – for everything!

    If a third-world writer has the skills and can write better than a native English speaker – If you have the same thing made in Greenland as you do in the US – Since everyone is only paying $1 to $3 per one hundred words – I can only get 8 cents per 1000 words.

    (Okay - I am exaggerating with that last one.)

    How nauseating!

    And this is all about EXCEPTIONS!

    So let’s get back to the real world.

    I am in the copy and content writing and SALES BUSINESS. My model is as much about sales as it is about writing – maybe even more so.

    I write, package, re-purpose and frame my offers far differently than:

    "Gee Mister - Will ya buy my article off me? Puleeaase?"

    At the lowest end of my fee scale, a 400 word article STARTS at $150. I write many pieces of very rudimentary content that I regularly sell for up to $700 EACH.

    A sales letter or long-form piece of sales copy starts in the upper four digits PLUS a piece of the profits – with an advance required UP-FRONT.

    And I will tell you – in one beat of a heart – I am not close to being the best writer in this forum. But I will put my earnings up against any writer here.

    So you folks can continue to do what you are doing – or you can realize that just being a little proactive and ignoring the “pricing beat-down” conditioning are really good things for you to do professionally.

    Oh, by the way, I am booked for all of my allocated, billable writing time until August 8.

    There is a big thriving world out there that wants what you have.

    Write like you know you can - sell yourself and your work. People are paying for the good stuff - and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

    The craziest part is that there is more than enough work for everyone - but it isn't going to come looking for you.
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    Nothing For Sale Here - At Least Not Now ...

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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Warriors
      Originally Posted by jpeddler View Post

      By any chance has anyone considered the concept that a very good writer can also be a superior salesperson?

      There must be something to the way I do business too – since I’ve been a professional writer since 1972. I never have a shortage of work or clients. And this is very much my business - it doesn't get treated as freelance work.

      I don't "freelance" anything.

      I have been reading and writing about this topic on the WF – I think I will continue with my comments …

      As long as the world of the WF, Odesk, Elance, etc. are among the venues you use to establish pricing – you will remain in the lowest tier of earners.

      People in the above-mentioned venues (and many others) aren’t going to value your content as much as people that are serious businesspeople – online and offline.

      You see - most of the people wanting to go on-the-cheap for content won’t last in this business – they are hobbyists. This is sad but true fact.

      These “marketers” can spout all the nonsense they want about third-world writers being as good as native English-speakers.

      Crap – pure crap.

      They have never been as good - and never will be! Those of you that know better can post all that nonsense about global economic costs of living and how this affects the pricing and value of content.

      If I wanted a constant stream of cheap articles, I might be trying to convince you of these same things.

      But it would be more crap.

      And I base this assessment on comparing very average English writers against the very best, PUBLISHED third-world writers.

      No contest – it isn’t even close. I can spot third-world writers by the second paragraph of whatever it is they think they can write.

      Many here would have you believe this is the face of your competition – and that is a blatant lie.

      So let me tell you what my clients say:

      NO THIRD-WORLD WRITERS NEED APPLY OR MAKE A SUBMISSION OF ANY KIND!

      This is their law – not mine, but I agree with it 100%. If I can spot the third-world writing - you can bet they can too. Of more value, they know the readers can spot it.

      So their work is rejected immediately. Sorry, this is just the way it is in the real world.

      If you have solid, unique or original writing – are you going to sell it for the same price at Wally World as you would at Neiman Marcus?

      Does this necessarily mean your writing is better than that of everyone else?

      Nope – it may not be. This isn't meant for those of you that treat the business of writing as a hobby - or that are just beginning your careers. You do have to have some skills.

      Yet, on the other hand, your work may be obscenely good.

      This single thing makes me nuts about nearly all writers that have their focus on online writing:

      YOU ARE NOT IN A PRISON FOR WRITERS!

      You can sell your stuff anywhere you want – based on however good your prospects think your work is – and for whatever you want to sell it for.

      But you had better be good. If you are, get out of these “bargain basements” and get “real” value for your work.

      Are you good – I mean really good – above and beyond what you see written elsewhere?

      Prove it!

      Ask for the business elsewhere – stop waiting on people here or other forums to toss you scraps.

      Take your stuff and approach offliners and onliners and show them what you’ve got – on your terms and according to your pricing scale – not what everyone here tells you it is worth.

      And price it freaking HIGH! You don’t know how high up is until you take it to the “wild extreme.”

      You folks are making judgments based on a “flea market” mentality of pricing, as it relates to buying and selling nearly EVERYTHING having to do with online sales.

      But here’s the biggest deal for you writers:

      Without content, NOTHING - ZERO can happen on the internet. The most basic building blocks – the ones that last in perpetuity – are the words in articles, ebooks, copy, sales letters and a host of other products.

      There is a HUGE world outside of the WF, Odesk, Elance, etc. And they pay lots and lots of money for great content.

      Those of you that are writers have allowed yourself to be brainwashed into believing your good work is worth pennies instead of the dollars those same efforts can bring.

      Instead of seeking what the going rates online are – take your skills elsewhere. The WF is only a microcosm of the world that buys content.

      Condition yourselves to ask: how high can I price my work? Ask: how valuable is this?

      - instead of –

      Gee, I wonder if someone will steal this from me for $5. It is an entirely different paradigm and I encourage all of you to apply it.

      I am certain there are exceptions to the sale and purchasing of services and goods in the WF, but this is the problem with this discussion.

      EVERYONE is talking about EXCEPTIONS & what your content is worth to those that want to spend as little as possible – for everything!

      If a third-world writer has the skills and can write better than a native English speaker – If you have the same thing made in Greenland as you do in the US – Since everyone is only paying $1 to $3 per one hundred words – I can only get 8 cents per 1000 words.

      (Okay - I am exaggerating with that last one.)

      How nauseating!

      And this is all about EXCEPTIONS!

      So let’s get back to the real world.

      I am in the copy and content writing and SALES BUSINESS. My model is as much about sales as it is about writing – maybe even more so.

      I write, package, re-purpose and frame my offers far differently than:

      "Gee Mister - Will ya buy my article off me? Puleeaase?"

      At the lowest end of my fee scale, a 400 word article STARTS at $150. I write many pieces of very rudimentary content that I regularly sell for up to $700 EACH.

      A sales letter or long-form piece of sales copy starts in the upper four digits PLUS a piece of the profits – with an advance required UP-FRONT.

      And I will tell you – in one beat of a heart – I am not close to being the best writer in this forum. But I will put my earnings up against any writer here.

      So you folks can continue to do what you are doing – or you can realize that just being a little proactive and ignoring the “pricing beat-down” conditioning are really good things for you to do professionally.

      Oh, by the way, I am booked for all of my allocated, billable writing time until August 8.

      There is a big thriving world out there that wants what you have.

      Write like you know you can - sell yourself and your work. People are paying for the good stuff - and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

      The craziest part is that there is more than enough work for everyone - but it isn't going to come looking for you.
      Fantastic post! Very encouraging, and it just confirms everything I've known all along. It's all about mindset and knowing exactly how to deliver value to clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by jpeddler View Post


      And I base this assessment on comparing very average English writers against the very best, PUBLISHED third-world writers.

      No contest – it isn’t even close. I can spot third-world writers by the second paragraph of whatever it is they think they can write.

      Many here would have you believe this is the face of your competition – and that is a blatant lie.

      So let me tell you what my clients say:

      NO THIRD-WORLD WRITERS NEED APPLY OR MAKE A SUBMISSION OF ANY KIND!
      I'm not sure about your definition of "third-world writers" but here
      is a third-world writer who won the Nobel Prize for Literature:

      Derek Walcott

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Walcott

      -Ray Edwards
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      • Profile picture of the author jadesource
        Being in the Philippines I've seen first hand how much people make. And even on a day to day basis I find it hard to believe.

        But I have to remember, there are 90 million people here in these islands, lots of them educated. Most of them with WIFI access.

        The US has 311 million people. The Philippines is roughly the size of Arizona. The density is sometimes overwhelming.

        However, I find that finding writers is all about conversions too. I'm surprised at the 1.25 rate, and you'll probably get back something written by a Martian who thinks that they can write english. But you might find a perfect writer. Probably not.

        But going rate "wholesale" is about 2.50 for 500 words.
        Not necessarily GOOD words. And if I have to spend a minute rewriting them it's not worth it.

        I tried iwriter the other day and found it interesting. Not sure how much I'll use it. Remember you can use that to offer services as well as buy them.

        Hope this helps.
        Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        I'm not sure about your definition of "third-world writers" but here
        is a third-world writer who won the Nobel Prize for Literature:

        Derek Walcott

        Derek Walcott - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        -Ray Edwards
        Naguib Mahfouz

        Naguib Mahfouz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author jpeddler
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        There's that dang arrogant presumption I mentioned :rolleyes:
        Arrogant or presumptuous - not even close. I live and work in the real world (not the way I wished it was) and third-country writers are simply not a consideration.

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        I see, and next you'll be telling us how no company in the US outsourced anything to these countries because the economic costs were so much lower, the quality could be maintained and/or exceeded. :rolleyes:
        Didn't say a thing about outsourcing - which post were you reading? Most of the markets for writers have no boundaries. They can work wherever they like. People like you will continue to toss them work and think you're getting a deal.

        Yeah - right! Great deal for you!

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        Uh huh...and let's see the empirical data from your assessment and your methodology.
        The only thing that matters - is what my clients tell me their interests and specs are. Those are the only things I concern myself with. They write the checks and dictate terms. Empirical data? If I had it (which I don't) - and did assessments and methodologies, you would likely find some minor point to debate. I don't have the time to play forum volleyball with someone that isn't a professional in the writing game.

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        Ray Edwards beat me to it, but what I find ironic is when I do a search on your name, I don't find all these great reviews and awards about your writing. I find a lot of social media links that may or may not be you, but I can't seem to find where anyone is raving about your writing but you.

        So I'm wondering what you've published and where? I don't recognize your name and I'm well read - help me out here.
        Ray is entitled to his opinion - just as you are. I welcome anyone's opinion.

        Ray's post was a welcome surprise - I knew you were coming before I ever posted anything.

        He thought this might be about race, national origin or heritage - it wasn't. I see papers written by Ivy League grad students that cannot write. They qualify every bit as much for that "third-world" writing tag as someone from any other part of the world.

        Ever heard of ghostwriters? Been one for 4 decades. Love it too - I have complete anonymity and confidentiality, and my clients do too. I often have to write very good pieces that I don't agree with - and don't want my name on.

        Have you not seen the word clients about two dozen or so times? (I know it was assumptive on my part that you would "get" that I wrote for others.)

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        You either didn't read the thread or utterly failed to understand it.
        Nope - I understood everything more than even you could possibly know. Did you fail to read that I am a minority too. I had an 100% uphill fight to get to where I am. I read the writing of others often - from all parts of the US and the world.

        If you can't write - or are unable to grasp colloquial English as it is written in the US, UK, Australia or elsewhere - my clients will dismiss and reject your work.

        Readers are much more astute than you give them credit for being. The people I write for don't take ANY chances with content - it MUST be good and it must be written by a native English speaker. Those are their rules - not mine. But as I said - I do agree with them.

        People in many content "flea markets" are trying to justify that good or great content has little value. And many in this forum and others elsewhere seek to validate this nonsensical pricing ceiling by saying third-world writers are as good as native English speakers.

        They aren't - and what's more important - you know they aren't.

        I write and work in the real world and make a lot of money - others need to know it can be done too. At the high-end of writing all kinds of content, their skills are sorely needed.

        You tell your comrades in this venue (and likely others) that their work has little value because the third-worlders (however you choose to define the term) say they are in a position to dictate prices because of economic scale and variances in the costs of living.

        This is blatant, unforgivable crap and you seriously insult every writer here - including me. You tell them - with your assumptive, authoritative tone - this is all you are worth - its all you'll ever be worth.

        Who's causing the harm here? I seek to enlighten others they can make more money - and that other writers anywhere are not competition.

        Would I serve fellow writers better by telling them they could not win?

        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        I don't disagree with most of the latter half of your post, but based on your initial comments about writers from third-world countries, all I can say is you're full of crap on those points. Your comments are grossly insulting to every decent writer regardless of where they're from.
        Agree or disagree - what you think makes little or no difference to me. You only think the contents are crap because you don't have a clue about how the real content writing business works.

        Who is kidding whom - and who is writing the checks?

        My discussion is closed after this. Again, playing forum volleyball with someone that has no interest but to buy content on-the-cheap is not who this message is directed to. Ray was a surprise when he chimed in - I was expecting you.

        People that truly believe that the skill of writing can be replicated in the US and elsewhere at the level I write at - can continue to believe (as you will) that you can buy stuff like mine elsewhere.

        It ain't gonna happen.

        If I insulted a few people enough to seek writing life and more money elsewhere, I will wear that and any other labels you want to place on me with pride. I hope that some of the more talented writers took it as a kick in the rear.

        Writing isn't the same as making cars, TVs or anything else. You seek to make it a commodity - it is not.

        Many online and offline businesses specifically want only native English speakers - it isn't my rule or law, but it is reality. It is the world I live in. I agree with their position and this isn't going to change because of what you "think" happens in the world.

        No one is stuck in the limitations of their environment because of what you or anyone else says MUST be their pricing. It is unfortunate that writers are often not the best salespeople for their own products.

        And competition in my world will remain the same - non-existent - not because of what you think or I believe.

        The people writing the checks believe this - they are the ones that run the metrics you wrote about above - and this is my only consideration. Ultimately this discussion boils down to being about money - as most things do.

        I have nothing for sale here like you have.

        I couldn't offer anything - even if I was willing to sell it within your low estimation of its value - which I am not. My time and skills have already been purchased in advance by these very same clients.

        The writers reading this thread will get the message - and that is absolutely all I care about.

        Their skills are worth more money - a lot more. There are many talented writers in this forum that think they are imprisoned because of the kind of whimsical posts people like you make.

        But the people that pay this kind of money aren't going to be posting article assignments for $2, $5, or anything remotely close. None of them are in this forum - and the WF is a grain of sand on the beach that is the marketplace for good writers and solid writing.

        Got anything else to spout off about?

        Tell it to the fellow members of your peanut gallery.

        Jake is over-and-out ... and totally uninterested in anymore of your comments.
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        Nothing For Sale Here - At Least Not Now ...

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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author fin
            I don't like to get involved in arguments, but I just have something to say.

            I like Mike's writing. It's very entertaining and flows with style.

            While your writing may be 99% grammatically correct, it's a little boring and lifeless.

            I don't think you should come across all high and mighty. I bet some third-world writers have a natural flair for entertaining others with their writing.

            I suppose you can't buy that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Man... $1.25 per 500 word article? Geesh... glad i'm not in the freelancer writing game.
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  • Profile picture of the author jpeddler
    The reality in how I define the "third-world" is irrelevant.

    I can say that it is not subject to geography, ethnicity, religion or country of origin. Let's not be obtuse enough to think this has anything to do with the color of someone's skin or where they live in the world.

    My mother was born in Monterrey, Mexico as were my father's parents. I can speak personally to the subject of the "third-world" because I've been there and seen it. My skin is a different color, so I know the obstacles others have to face.

    Even though I was born and raised in the US - I spoke no English until I was five.

    So my client's definition is often simply: a non-native English speaker/writer.

    This is broad and completely open to interpretation. I don't pretend to be able to define it for them - this isn't my role.

    So, as far as I am concerned, the third-world can exist two blocks down the street.

    What matters to me is what the people that write checks with my name on them think - and what their customers and readers think.

    They don't consider them for the level of work I do - so I don't allow myself to be concerned with it either.

    My only consideration is to produce the best work I can. I play by their rules because it is in my best interests to do so.

    My fiercest competition is exceeding my own standards - producing better work than I delivered to them previously.

    I don't worry about other writers calling them and winning their business by offering $5 articles - or anything else really. Other writers that write at a high level are rarely concerned about losing clients either.

    Price doesn't motivate my clients - quality work that gets results does. I leave the definitions to them.
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    • Profile picture of the author absoluteallen
      Think Foxxcon.. people doing adept work for next to nothing.

      Writers are seen as slave laborers in the IM world. Selfish marketers all over are not only paying next to nothing to build their "junk" mass sites, but they also bring the hammer down on these cheap writers:

      You missed a comma! I said I wanted 3% keyword density! You gave me 3% keyword density but I don't like how you meshed it into the article!

      Well, kiss my ass!

      The way I see it is.. if you want me to write for you at the $5 range or less per 500 words then SHUT UP and take my junk articles or hightail it out of here!

      I can write 50 articles people don't want to read, All Day. In fact, buy in bulk; I'll do 50 $3 watered down articles for you in return for your $150 a day.

      Screwing is a 2 way street.

      Let's make bunches of junk blogs or websites together my cheap lover.
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      • Profile picture of the author capitalalchemy
        Forget about paying people in other countries what you view as "peanuts"...I recently at Christmas paid an assistance in a country $150 for a month's worth of work. My girlfriend flipped out on me, because she has friends from the same country who plan to retire back to said country on American earnings, and she knew the reality.

        Where I thought I was getting a deal couldn't be any further from the truth. We looked it up, and given this particular, commonly employed country in IM, $150 in one month is more than a doctor would make in that country, or the equivalent of $6,000.00 U.S.D.

        So anyway, be careful of outsourcing -- the rates that you think are so golden are really just taking advantage of you (unless you can afford it), and perhaps be thankful for any work, even if it is $3.

        But also know that $3 in some countries may be the equivalent to $50 for them, so of course it's a good deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tadresources
    I have found decent writers working for not much more than that. Unfortunately as another poster said, there are plenty of writer out there willing to work harder for less money.

    There are good jobs out there though. I think Freelancer has been lost to areas like India and Indonesia where there are people who speak so-so English for much less than people from Australia, the US etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author absoluteallen
      Originally Posted by Tadresources View Post

      I have found decent writers working for not much more than that. Unfortunately as another poster said, there are plenty of writer out there willing to work harder for less money.

      There are good jobs out there though. I think Freelancer has been lost to areas like India and Indonesia where there are people who speak so-so English for much less than people from Australia, the US etc.
      It's not about working harder for less money, it's about understanding the psychology of the American buyer.

      None of these people "get it". They don't live a western lifestyle, they are writing on purely hypothetical views in their understanding of the English language.
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  • Profile picture of the author marcelomusza
    The main problem is that you are guaranteed to get a mid-low quality article, and if you are really serious in your traffic generation techniques, you shouldn't fall in that mediocrity, sooner or later it will only damage your business.

    It is very tempting due to the low cost, but in that case I would prefer to spend $5 on fiverr and get someone with better reputation to make some article (still too cheap but more reliable than those persons that take the job at that price).
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  • Profile picture of the author HappyLuke
    I think that is cheap!
    I like to write, but man could I make a living off that? Probably not...
    Dont be a worker bee, be the brains.
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    In America anyone can go straight to the top. And here's what's exciting- It is the bottom that is crowded, not the top.

    (Excerpt from my Success Manual found at http://thoughtsofsuccess.com)

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