Jason...You Started It...What I Hate About IM

by Steven Wagenheim 20 replies
Jason has his beefs with certain things to do with IM. Well, I've got a list
that will choke a horse.

1. Sales letters that promise the moon.

2. Merchants that will tell you whatever you want to hear in an email reply
to your inquiry just so you'll buy their product.

3. Autoresponder emails with no f*cking way to unsubscribe or unsubscribe
requests that get ignored.

4. Products that are supposed to be original but are nothing more than PLR
that was taken and barely rewritten.

5. Scammers who will cheat you out of thousands of dollars in mentoring
costs and teach you absolutely nothing useful.

6. People who steal your articles off of directories and don't even include
your resource box when they post it.

7. People who buy your product and then 2 minutes later, ask for a refund.

8. People who promise that they'll do a JV with you, make you go through
tons of work creating the product and then at the last minute, they back
out because somebody else screwed them and you've wasted all that time.
(No, I won't mention any names)

9. People who ask for your new ebook, say they'll give you a testimonial
if they like it, then, you never hear from them again and when you write
to them, you never hear back from them.

10. Site owners who somehow manage to lose your commission info in
their system and then when you email them to get it fixed, you never
hear from them again. Meantime, you've lost thousands of dollars in
commissions. (NO, I won't mention any names)

I could go on for a year. There is so much crap about this industry that
I totally detest that it makes me ashamed to be part of it sometimes.

But I try my damned best to change people's perceptions of IM. Let me
tell you, it's hard. I get emails from people with so much venom that I
wonder where it's coming from. These are people who I don't even know.

So yes Jason, I hate a lot of crap in IM.

Maybe even more than you do.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #hate #itwhat #jasonyou #started
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Whew! Looks like I'm in the clear then! I was going to send you aPM asking what some of those things were you hated, to see if I was doing any. Again, whew!

    6. People who steal your articles off of directories and don't even include
    your resource box when they post it.
    It really makes me hot under the collar when the hyperlink every other word in your article, then they post it on their blog without your info, then everyone compliments THEM for giving away such useful information - then when you call them on it, they delete the comments. The only thing worse than a thief is a thief who is also a coward.

    By the way, I have a list too.

    ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author BuddyT
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      • Profile picture of the author coreytucker
        #1 Steven is the worse. You got to write a good sales letter right? Well how the crap do you do that without promising the moon like you said.

        Lets not forget all of these review sites that give the best review score to the highest paying or converting affiliate product. Its issues like this that piss me off and confuse me when it comes to Internet Marketing.

        I just wrote my first sales letter and it does not promise the moon, guess I will have to see how that goes
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        • Originally Posted by coreytucker View Post


          Lets not forget all of these review sites that give the best review score to the highest paying or converting affiliate product. Its issues like this that piss me off and confuse me when it comes to Internet Marketing.
          I hate that. When I am looking for a review, I want a real review, dadgummit (as they say in Texas ).
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        • Profile picture of the author Ricky Parker
          " 1. Sales letters that promise the moon."



          You can't even legally sell the moon. Trust me I've tired!

          Plus if you could the shipping would be nuts!
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Originally Posted by coreytucker View Post

          #1 Steven is the worse. You got to write a good sales letter right? Well how the crap do you do that without promising the moon like you said.
          You give specific facts about what's in your product and the results it's got for your and other people.

          Specific facts build credibility and will sell far more product than hype anyway.

          And if you give the facts in a warm low key way you can make them even more believable.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

            You give specific facts about what's in your product and the results it's got for your and other people.

            Specific facts build credibility and will sell far more product than hype anyway.

            And if you give the facts in a warm low key way you can make them even more believable.

            Kindest regards,
            Andrew Cavanagh
            And that's coming from an expert copywriter.

            Thank you Andrew.
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            • Profile picture of the author coreytucker
              Thanks for the advice Andrew. I will add more factual things in my sales letter that I actually include in my product. I just dont want to build false hype
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              • Profile picture of the author clanspring
                I've thought a lot about this subject too. I read a lot of sales letters that go over the top making a product sound like it is the best thing since sliced bread was invented. By a long shot, most of the products I've gone through and purchased seemed "sub-standard" from my veiwpoint - even some of those offered by what are considered to be top names.

                On the other hand, I look at what I would consider to be the really professional products and/or services. I'm talking about the ones associated with a company and not an individual.

                There seems to be a big difference and it has led me to think the route to real success lies in providing real value and doing it with professionalism, instead of looking for the quick fix and relying on lots hype to get the message across.

                There will always be those who use a lot of hype. I think it is better to provide real value and then over-deliver. In time I think it will pay off.
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                • Profile picture of the author BuddyT
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                  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
                    Hey BuddyT, which art do you do? I'm starting up in Ninjutsu again.. What do I hatw about IM? As a new guy (learning lots and taking action AND seeing results) I HATE the fact that so many new ebooks and what not come out that are merely rehased info you can get for free. This I think is the main reason IM has such a bad image.
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                    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                      PLR....PLR....PLR.
                      Allowing people to just grab literature anywhere seems to really distort people's ethics. I have never seen people so ignorant of or arrogant about actually stealing copy as the present IM crowd.
                      People getting rich on resale rights copy that allows them to alter it just a hair and sell it as NEW or ORIGINAL.

                      Face it - if you are going to have a business, it takes work - if you can't handle that go work for someone else or get on welfare. Stealing other people's work is not a BUSINESS, it is a CRIME. I have no clue how anyone can hold their head up or look in a mirror when they make a living from stealing from others or market a lot of rehash as their OWN ORIGINAL work. It's gotten so bad you can't even sell a product without someone stealing it for a refund then making it over just a hair and selling it as their own - no resale rights necessary these days, just STEAL.

                      GURUS - worship them hard with no thought about what they are teaching you - it was some of these guys who started the PLR and Resale items that made them beaucoup bucks, but caved the integrity and moral fiber of those who followed. They implanted the ideas that incredulous amounts of hype and rehashed crap that was barely passible as good in the first place was the way to "BUILD YOUR BUSINESS". New marketers worship them like lambs for the slaughter when all they are learning is how to cheat the world for a buck. GREAAAAT.

                      Anyone else tired of "is this legal" questions in the forum? If you have to wonder if it's legal, maybe your real question should be "is it ethical?"

                      AND - People who can't even form a question about something specific enough to answer adequately that think they can make millions without getting some sort of education. That doesn't necessarily mean schooling - but you better be able to teach yourself or find a suitable mentor if you are so deficient that you can't do even one portion of the work in your business by yourself. If you want a business that will last, you better chalk up the fact that you will need to keep learning as long as you own that business. Otherwise a lucky hit is just like winning a lottery - and stats show that most people who win the lottery end up just as bad off as they were or worse in the long run because they didn't bother to learn how to handle all that cash. If you have something against learning and handling at least parts of your business via your own work, you aren't doing you or anyone else any favors.
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                      Sal
                      New PLR - Disaster prep duo report pkg: The Art of the Graceful Bug out, and Preparing Pets for a Disaster. - PM me for report details.
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          • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
            In fact we could create a really neat positive list here of things to do in internet marketing if you want to stand out as an exceptional and ethical marketer:

            # 1: Give specific facts about what's in your product and the results it's got for your and other people.

            Specific facts build credibility and will sell far more product than hype anyway.

            And if you give the facts in a warm low key way you can make them even more believable.


            # 2: When people email you to ask you questions about your products tell them the truth.

            If the product they're enquiring about is not what they're looking for tell them why it doesn't suit them and find or a create a product that will help them.

            These inquiries where people are looking for something you don't supply are product creation gold to a smart marketer.

            In some cases you can ask this person exactly what questions they have, answer them in detail with step by step directions and there you have it...a report and/or audio you can sell.


            # 3: When you set up an autoresponder go with a leading honest service like Aweber that has an unsubscribe link in every email you send out.

            If you don't you will get reported as a spammer over and over and before long you'll find ISPs have black listed you and your emails aren't getting through.

            Unsubscribe links in your emails are part of the protection YOU need as an email marketer to keep getting your emails delivered.


            # 4: If you want to be seen as a genuine leader in your niche you're going to have to create your own unique content.

            Forget Private Label Rights products. You may use it to create add on bonuses but not to create core products.

            If you want loyal clients create products they will RAVE about for years to come.

            High quality unique content and delivering that content with your own unique style is the key to carving out your own place in a niche.


            # 5: If you have a mentoring program be sure the clients you take on can learn something valuable and enduring from you.

            If you do get a client who clearly is beyond your ability to help immediately issue a refund.

            If you don't have any kind of track record in the field you're teaching then you shouldn't be offering mentoring services at all.


            # 6: Don't ever use anyone else's work without giving them credit.

            Be more than honest and fair in all your dealings.

            The guy who goes out of his way to do more than is expected for the JV partners, article providers etc in his niche will stand out and build extremely valuable alliances that will last the test of time.

            It really does pay to be honest.


            # 7: Expect to pay for the products you buy and don't cheat honest online merchants out of their rightful money by asking for refunds on products you expect to keep and read.

            If a product really sucks...definitely ask for a refund.

            But if you get more value out of a product than what you paid for it or if the product delivered exactly what the sales letter said it would deliver then don't go asking for a refund.

            Again be fair and honest in all your dealings...it pays off in the long run.


            # 8: Honor your joint venture partners no matter how big or small they are and appreciate the work they put in to make a joint venture work.

            And keep your word.

            If you say you're going to do something...do it.

            Your reputation is vitally important in an industry that relies on cooperation and joint ventures to thrive.


            # 9: When people ask you to review a product it really can be a pain in the arse and there are times when you won't give them a review immediately after reading it because you just don't like the product and you don't want to offend them.

            But be polite.

            If they contact you again be polite enough to reply...that's just common courtesy.

            Also if you ask for a review or testimonial of your product and you don't get a positive response from a leading marketer you might ask them for honest feedback:

            What did they like about the product? What did they dislike about the product?

            And don't be offended if they tear strips off your product.

            They've just given you the kind of review you would normally have to pay good money for.


            10. When an affiliate promotes your product the real profit for you is in building a list of buyers from the people they send to your sales letters.

            Apart from being dishonest it's just plain STUPID to cheat affiliates out of commissions.

            Be generous to your affiliates, pay them every cent they've earned and then some.

            Ask yourself: "How can I give MORE to my affiliates?" "How can I help them give MORE to their subscribers?" "How can I make it easier for my affiliates to promote my products?"

            That way you'll have affiliates who'll be thrilled to send you an endless stream of high quality prospects.


            Kindest regards,
            Andrew Cavanagh
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

              In fact we could create a really neat positive list here of things to do in internet marketing if you want to stand out as an exceptional and ethical marketer:

              # 1: Give specific facts about what's in your product and the results it's got for your and other people.

              Specific facts build credibility and will sell far more product than hype anyway.

              And if you give the facts in a warm low key way you can make them even more believable.


              # 2: When people email you to ask you questions about your products tell them the truth.

              If the product they're enquiring about is not what they're looking for tell them why it doesn't suit them and find or a create a product that will help them.

              These inquiries where people are looking for something you don't supply are product creation gold to a smart marketer.

              In some cases you can ask this person exactly what questions they have, answer them in detail with step by step directions and there you have it...a report and/or audio you can sell.


              # 3: When you set up an autoresponder go with a leading honest service like Aweber that has an unsubscribe link in every email you send out.

              If you don't you will get reported as a spammer over and over and before long you'll find ISPs have black listed you and your emails aren't getting through.

              Unsubscribe links in your emails are part of the protection YOU need as an email marketer to keep getting your emails delivered.


              # 4: If you want to be seen as a genuine leader in your niche you're going to have to create your own unique content.

              Forget Private Label Rights products. You may use it to create add on bonuses but not to create core products.

              If you want loyal clients create products they will RAVE about for years to come.

              High quality unique content and delivering that content with your own unique style is the key to carving out your own place in a niche.


              # 5: If you have a mentoring program be sure the clients you take on can learn something valuable and enduring from you.

              If you do get a client who clearly is beyond your ability to help immediately issue a refund.

              If you don't have any kind of track record in the field you're teaching then you shouldn't be offering mentoring services at all.


              # 6: Don't ever use anyone else's work without giving them credit.

              Be more than honest and fair in all your dealings.

              The guy who goes out of his way to do more than is expected for the JV partners, article providers etc in his niche will stand out and build extremely valuable alliances that will last the test of time.

              It really does pay to be honest.


              # 7: Expect to pay for the products you buy and don't cheat honest online merchants out of their rightful money by asking for refunds on products you expect to keep and read.

              If a product really sucks...definitely ask for a refund.

              But if you get more value out of a product than what you paid for it or if the product delivered exactly what the sales letter said it would deliver then don't go asking for a refund.

              Again be fair and honest in all your dealings...it pays off in the long run.


              # 8: Honor your joint venture partners no matter how big or small they are and appreciate the work they put in to make a joint venture work.

              And keep your word.

              If you say you're going to do something...do it.

              Your reputation is vitally important in an industry that relies on cooperation and joint ventures to thrive.


              # 9: When people ask you to review a product it really can be a pain in the arse and there are times when you won't give them a review immediately after reading it because you just don't like the product and you don't want to offend them.

              But be polite.

              If they contact you again be polite enough to reply...that's just common courtesy.

              Also if you ask for a review or testimonial of your product and you don't get a positive response from a leading marketer you might ask them for honest feedback:

              What did they like about the product? What did they dislike about the product?

              And don't be offended if they tear strips off your product.

              They've just given you the kind of review you would normally have to pay good money for.


              10. When an affiliate promotes your product the real profit for you is in building a list of buyers from the people they send to your sales letters.

              Apart from being dishonest it's just plain STUPID to cheat affiliates out of commissions.

              Be generous to your affiliates, pay them every cent they've earned and then some.

              Ask yourself: "How can I give MORE to my affiliates?" "How can I help them give MORE to their subscribers?" "How can I make it easier for my affiliates to promote my products?"

              That way you'll have affiliates who'll be thrilled to send you an endless stream of high quality prospects.


              Kindest regards,
              Andrew Cavanagh

              My vote for post of the year. This should be tacked up at the top of this
              forum and made a sticky.
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Bruno
              oh let me add the latest....

              Skype spam.

              I've had two people on my Skype contact list blatently spam me.

              The latest was within the last week. The other about 4-5 months ago.

              The thing that really ercked me was that one of the persons are a well known and seasoned marketer and should of known better.

              The other person came to me and said they had list of around 50-100k and wanted to promote one of my products.

              So we get on Skype and come to find out their a freakin scammer who had no list at all, in fact they bought the list. lol

              Well I told them I was not interested... (ya think!)

              Anyway I forgot I still had them on my Skype contact list until they had the nerve to spam me. arrgggg!

              Well I found the Skype block/delete real quick in both cases.


              Frank Bruno
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
        Steven,

        I can understand the reasons behind your and other peoples "hate" about IM. But what I'm trying to understand is the lesson you are trying to convey with this post. A lot of the times you have a good moral to your post or at least a good lesson that we Warriors can learn from.

        Perhaps I'm being dense because this is Friday night and I'm tired. But I just don't get the intention of this post. Would you be kind enough to point out the moral or lesson of this post? So I can at least feel I didn't waste my time.

        Inquiring minds want to know.

        Ken Leatherman
        The Old Geezer
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

          Steven,

          I can understand the reasons behind your and other peoples "hate" about IM. But what I'm trying to understand is the lesson you are trying to convey with this post. A lot of the times you have a good moral to your post or at least a good lesson that we Warriors can learn from.

          Perhaps I'm being dense because this is Friday night and I'm tired. But I just don't get the intention of this post. Would you be kind enough to point out the moral or lesson of this post? So I can at least feel I didn't waste my time.

          Inquiring minds want to know.

          Ken Leatherman
          The Old Geezer

          Ken, you're right, I didn't finish my thought because I was too pissed off
          by the time I got to number 10, so here it is.

          What goes around comes around.

          If you screw people, if you cheat people, if you con people, if you don't
          treat others with respect, I have to believe (please tell me I'm right) that
          it's going to catch up with you, if not in this life, the next.

          Treat people with respect, keep your word when you say you're going
          to do something, don't lie, don't give IM any worse of a name than it
          already has. And if you think IM doesn't have a bad name, go to places
          like Scam.com and read some of the venom that's there.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Jason has his beefs with certain things to do with IM...
    I just hope Allen doesn’t ban Jason from the forum for his
    earlier thread. Sure, he broke two forum rules with a single
    post, but he’s just too damn entertaining to toss out.

    Rules:
    ----------
    If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God,
    take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.

    Anyone caught trying to purposefully harm another person’s
    WSO will be removed from this forum permanently.
    ----------

    Jason, could have taken his problem to Dean, Allen, or even
    Frank; but haven’t we all, at one time or another, lost control
    of our emotions?

    Plus, if the forum hadn’t changed, I bet the old moderators
    would have deleted the post before Jason could have gotten
    himself into any trouble. Luckily it’s gone now anyway.

    Obviously, it is not appropriate to try to hurt someone, or
    their WSO using the main board. If you can’t do in the WSO
    itself, then certainly posting to the main forum is out of
    bounds.

    Let's hope that thread ended up hurting neither one of them.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

      I just hope Allen doesn’t ban Jason from the forum for his
      earlier thread. Sure, he broke two forum rules with a single
      post, but he’s just too damn entertaining to toss out.

      Rules:
      ----------
      If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God,
      take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.

      Anyone caught trying to purposefully harm another person’s
      WSO will be removed from this forum permanently.
      ----------

      Jason, could have taken his problem to Dean, Allen, or even
      Frank; but haven’t we all, at one time or another, let our
      emotions take over?

      Plus, if the forum hadn’t changed, I bet the old moderators
      would have deleted the post before Jason could have gotten
      himself into any trouble. Luckily it’s gone now anyway.

      Obviously, it is not appropriate to try to hurt someone, or
      their WSO using the main board. If you can’t do in the WSO
      itself, then certainly posting to the main forum is out of
      bounds.

      Let's hope that thread ended up hurting neither one of them.

      .
      Hey John,

      Dean emailed me, I emailed back.

      I know he didn't mean any harm and only thought the promo was good for the cause (The Frank cause that is).

      I also bet there is some great info in the promo. Stuff that people could learn from and might like.

      It's also easier to be calm and cool after just getting back from surfing instead of ending a 8 hour work marathon in the hot and humid air.

      Anyhow, I know Dean has the upmost respect for Frank. And he wouldn't want anyone to think different. I just kindly suggested he go about marketing his material a bit differently.

      Also, I'm glad the thread was deleted.

      I had tried to directly PM, but didn't hear back, so I proceeded to break a few rules apparently.

      Oh and Steve,

      I can't stand most of that stuff either.

      But its' easy to avoid that stuff. Just don't patronize it.

      Anyhow, back to bitchfest.

      Wanna know what I hate about IM?

      The fact that it's hard to see the computer screen when outside so it forces you indoors too often.
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      • I LOVE bitchfests!!!!

        Here's what I really, really, really hate about IM:

        I hate these so called gurus that everyone here worships like they're freaking demigods when in reality the only thing they're really good at is promising the moon and selling insane amounts of crappy digitally delivered products.

        But everyone here practically worships greed and so the fact that these guys are able to make so much money just blows everyones mind and we pretend not to notice that most of their fortunes are being made by selling false hopes and empty promises.

        That really chaps my ass.

        Oh yeah, and I hate how my hand gets cramped from using a mouse for hours at a time.
        Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
    Congrats to all the winners...









    ...is it laundry day?
    Signature
    Sean Mitchell - Publishing Your Passion
    Online Marketing Consultant Since 1999
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  • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    3. Autoresponder emails with no f*cking way to unsubscribe or unsubscribe
    requests that get ignored.
    Or the best ever, ones that actually expect you to login with a password and username to unsubscribe. Oh boy, you Sir have ensured I will never, ever purchase from you or come near your site ever again

    7. People who buy your product and then 2 minutes later, ask for a refund.
    Clickbank is the worst for this, I'm sure there are a legion of people who simply realise CB is basically free. I have a Client I do some work for, he really does have a superb product, I've seen amost every product in his fitness niche and his is really outstanding, he over delivers by a mile, even includes a private discussion forum and a million tools, a superb e-book, the guy just tries to give exceptional value and yet within minutes of ordering some of these scuzz balls are after a refund with the most bizare reasons.

    Professional refunders, there's no other way to describe it. I actually can't remember ever asking for a refund on a product, I've normally done my research enough to know it's of reasonable quality and I don't expect everything to be new or unheard of, my take is, if I learn something of value, even one thing to add to the arsenal, then for anything under $100 it was a good deal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Iain Ainsworth
      Marketers who offer no/little customer or after-sales support.

      You take all that time, money and energy to get a paying customer, and then just toss them aside with virtual sales support that is as vacant as your brain.

      Madness.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Originally Posted by Craig Desorcy View Post

    How about the guy that runs a WSO saying "Only 50 will be sold"

    Then as a motivator to buy, in the copy it says, if I decide to sell another 50 it's going to be 67 dollars.

    I was about to buy until I saw that.

    Craig
    Craig, that would be mine. And I see nothing wrong with this. I was up front
    in my WSO about everything. Only 50 will be sold at that price. I could have
    easily not mentioned that I might release another 50 for $67. Then I could
    see you being pissed. But I fully disclosed the terms of the WSO so there
    was no confusion about what they were.

    I wish more people were as honest as I am.

    Good, I'm glad that condition made it so that I lost your sale because I
    would have hated if you had gotten it, then I added 50 more units at $67
    and you came back fuming mad, which would have been within your right
    to do so. But with full disclosure, you at least knew the deal right from
    the start.

    So please at least give me credit for that much.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
      Twitter spam. There was some affiliate company that was sending a lot of people on Twitter a picture of a scantily clad hot chick - the horror! the horror! - and then the same basic message, again and again - "Jenna's using it now and loves it. I love it too!" and then a link to a water 4 gas product. Literally the only thing that changed was the picture of the woman and the name in the message - Laura's using it now and loves it! Susie's using it now and loves it! Etc.

      If I sign up to someone's email list and I think their emails don't deliver value, no biggie. I'm not annoyed. I will unsubscribe, of course. But getting unsolicited Twitter messages like that is a waste of my time.
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      • Profile picture of the author stressfree
        obvious fraud but just necause they make a lot of money everyone says "well..it works so don't knock it."

        Some of the sales pages I read are clear fraud,lies, cheat. Yet they make a fortune. So it's ok.....
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