The So Called "Gurus" Just Don't Get It!!!

71 replies
I just have to say that many so called online Gurus and big time successful internet marketers seem to me to just not care anymore! Let me explain.

I am currently subscribed to about 9 or 10 of the top marketing big wigs email list. I have been keeping an informal log of how many emails they send out in a three week timeframe and how many of those emails contain useful information, tips, insights, tactics, etc. and how many are just plain selling or pushing something.

Now the least amount of emails in those three weeks have been 6 emails. That is fine, but not one of those was anything more than a sales pitch with a sentence or two of useful info. Now the worst offender had a total of 15 emails sent. Again, nothing more than hard pitches for products that are closing today, last chance to buy forever, a miracle that has happened for this to be available, and on and on and on.

Not one of those contained anything that could help somebody succeed in IM. Also, many of those dozens of emails would push the same product 5+ times in that three week period.

Now to a newbie like me, this tells me that the only thing the big guys care about is making as much money as they can, and if they bombard everyone enough with the same pitch for the same product, eventually they will get purchased. I myself have had enough of that, and that is why I have now unsubscribed to all but one or two of those email lists. It really is too bad that they seemed to have become completely oblivious to this fact.

I will now get off my soapbox and ask what you all think about this. Am I just whining or have I finally opened my eyes to a disturbing truth? Thanks for listening!
#called #gurus
  • Profile picture of the author Easy Cash
    They are going for the numbers game.

    Spam as many people as possible as much as possible and a certain percentage will buy.

    Chances are though, if they added more value they would probably make more in the long term........
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    • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
      This is a serious question for you. How would you want them to offer you products that might be of use to you? How would you like them to be able to offer products and make a living in the process?

      I am with you, I don't want to be sold every email but if 1 out of 4 I get a sales pitch then I understand it.

      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
        Originally Posted by floridatroy View Post

        I just have to say that many so called online Gurus and big time successful internet marketers seem to me to just not care anymore!

        -----

        Now to a newbie like me, this tells me that the only thing the big guys care about is making as much money as they can, and if they bombard everyone enough with the same pitch for the same product, eventually they will get purchased.
        -----
        I totally agree with you. Money seem to have occupied the better part of their heads.

        Originally Posted by Allen Lewis View Post

        -----
        It's called 'Direct Marketing'. The more marketing you do, the more money you are going to make.

        The more stuff you throw on the wall, the more stuff is going to stick.

        -----

        But there's a reason. It works.

        -----
        I suppose it's the way to do it if whether it works or not is the only thing you care about.

        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        -----
        How would you want them to offer you products that might be of use to you? How would you like them to be able to offer products and make a living in the process?
        -----
        I would want them to offer me higher quality products at a more relaxed and lenient tempo. Many of the people we're talking about got their high reputation because of some groundbreaking product. To me the way they act today seriously devalues that reputation. Those guys are not the ones I look up to and would like to model. Some of their teachings; yes, as a whole; no.

        As for making a living in the process, I think they already do relatively well without having to behave like this.

        I'm tempted to quote the Bible. This is absoltutely not an attempt to bring religion into the discussion. I suppose many religions may be able to offer some quote like this. I just think it's a good quote. It goes more or less like this;

        "What does it help you to win the whole world but take a damage to your soul?"

        Sometimes I get the feeling that overly aggressive marketers think like this;

        "To h*** with my soul. Give me the money!"

        Maybe a harsh statement. Maybe some grains of truth in it.
        Signature

        Oscar Toft

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        • Profile picture of the author Matt James
          If it bothers you guys so much why not set up your own lists and take on these "gurus"?

          See if you make more money doing it your way.

          I think one of the best ratios is 2 content emails followed by a pitch.

          But I don't blame some of these guys for just sending out pitches - it works. Their funnels are developed in such a way that for every person who unsubscribes a new one comes in and laps up the pitches (at least for a while)...

          A lot of people like to get these offers too.

          There's no bull, no hiding behind a fa├žade of "good content" in order to pitch you further down the line.

          At least they're honest.

          I work with a guy who's had 30,000 people unsubscribe from his list, but he doesn't care... it leaves him with the buyers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by TimCastleman View Post

        This is a serious question for you. How would you want them to offer you products that might be of use to you? How would you like them to be able to offer products and make a living in the process?

        I am with you, I don't want to be sold every email but if 1 out of 4 I get a sales pitch then I understand it.

        Tim
        I'm not the OP but I'll respond to the question...

        What I'd advise them to do is take a page from Jim Daniel's
        play book. (some of you newer folks may not know who Jim
        Daniels is but you should look him up...)

        I was on Jim's list for many years. Jim had no problem making
        offers but his style was a little more subtle.

        He'd outline a strategy, give you the step by step points
        on how and why it worked... then suggest a product that
        might be useful in helping you flesh it out.

        There was never any hype.

        Now that I've said that I'm going to look him up and get
        back on his list.

        Tsnyder
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        If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Lewis
    While this post is no doubt going to be popular, I think most people are missing the point.

    It's called 'Direct Marketing'. The more marketing you do, the more money you are going to make.

    The more stuff you throw on the wall, the more stuff is going to stick.

    Of course, there comes a point where pitching becomes overdone. Doing it everyday won't endear you to everyone.

    But there's a reason. It works.

    And if anyone has been paying attention to the JV contests in the IM niche, you would see that that it is the 'perpetual product pitchers' who consistently top the charts.

    Allen
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    • Profile picture of the author Bayo
      Originally Posted by Allen Lewis View Post

      While this post is no doubt going to be popular, I think most people are missing the point.
      Originally Posted by Allen Lewis View Post


      It's called 'Direct Marketing'. The more marketing you do, the more money you are going to make.

      The more stuff you throw on the wall, the more stuff is going to stick.

      Of course, there comes a point where pitching becomes overdone. Doing it everyday won't endear you to everyone.

      But there's a reason. It works.

      And if anyone has been paying attention to the JV contests in the IM niche, you would see that that it is the 'perpetual product pitchers' who consistently top the charts.

      Allen


      Hi Allen

      I'll be one to disagree for a number of reasons.

      It's called 'Direct Marketing'. The more marketing you do, the more money you are going to make.

      I'm happy you didn't go as far as referring to it as "Direct RESPONSE Marketing". What they do is actually soft-spamming and not direct marketing

      The more stuff you throw on the wall, the more stuff is going to stick.

      As people get smarter and the likes of Gmail and Hotmail give larger FREE mailboxes a lot of this information just goes unread. My mailbox has thousands of unread emails from 'gurus'. I would rather read less hyped up emails from relatively new folks who have something useful to say.

      And if anyone has been paying attention to the JV contests in the IM niche, you would see that that it is the 'perpetual product pitchers' who consistently top the charts.

      The guru network...how far can the results be trusted? Anyone these days can create fake check photos and people do. Not to say that there aren't big hitters and winners but a lot of this is hyped up.

      The test here reveals what many people are doing but just can't be bothered to mention but in the eyes of the gurus, they have huge 'receptive' lists.

      Time will catch up with the mass mailing from gurus (it already is with fewer restrictions on mailbox sizes) and a direct response marketing approach is way better than a direct marketing approach.

      Subtle differences but bigger differences in results.

      Cheers
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Personally, I think that the people that are on my list forget they are on it because I very rarely send them anything. With the exception of the past 10 days when I have sent out 2 emails I think...

        However, people in this thread act like it is wrong that marketers want to make as much money as they can? lol -- Is that supposed to be a joke?

        OF COURSE THEY DO!!

        Who here on this forum doesn't want to make as much as they can...and to top it all off a couple of the people in here degrading people for sending email after email are the same ones that are buying every blackhat method that gets posted in the WSO forum that teaches you to deceive people into giving you their money.

        Can anyone say pot calling the kettle black?

        When you sign up to be on someones email list, expect to be pitched. If you expect anything different then you obviously don't understand how all of this works...Maybe a refresher course is in order?

        Yes, many of the products are rehashes and such, but that isn't a bad thing. Here is a real life example.

        I bought a guide on list building from marketer A. I read through it and it was thorough, but Marketer A just didn't explain it in a way that I thoroughly understood it. Many people did, I'm sure, but I didn't. I then bought another product from Marketer B which was pretty much about the same method -- However, when I got done reading it I understood it. His style of teaching was more of my style of learning so, it was money well spent.

        Getting too many emails is the last thing that people should be complaining about especially because you chose to be on the lists that you are on. I don't get it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Bayo View Post

        And if anyone has been paying attention to the JV contests in the IM niche, you would see that that it is the 'perpetual product pitchers' who consistently top the charts.

        The guru network...how far can the results be trusted? Anyone these days can create fake check photos and people do. Not to say that there aren't big hitters and winners but a lot of this is hyped up.
        I have seen this ridiculas argument in another thread, dude I am much more likely to downgrade a guru in the JV list than to put him higher on the list...

        JV competitions are about squeezing more promotions from a list owner not giving him a fictitous lead and stop him mailing again
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  • Profile picture of the author gareth
    Sometimes they might do a lame patronizing video and "pretend" to be helping people.

    But hey - must be thats what works.
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  • Profile picture of the author oboi2121
    Hello Omari Taylor Here,

    Yes, there are a lot people claiming different thing. I don't know if I would call them gurus but most of them don't have any value in their emails. But there are some people that I follow who give get information in there emails. One is Mike Dillard and the another is Daegan Smith.

    I have been following them seen I have be marketing online and of course they are not going to give you a full course on marketing in their emails but the little tips they do give are useful. Just make sure you do your research on some of these so called gurus and deal with the one that add value to the market place instead of pitching sales in every email. That just my opinion. Best Wishes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eirik Ringstad
    Hey,

    You know, it`s sad that some people out there is only concerned about milking as much money out of people as possible. These people do nothing more than ruining the reputation of Online Marketing as well as Network Marketing in general.

    My best advice to you is to find a select few individuals out there that truly add value to your life and business through their newsletters and that connect with you in a way that inspires you to grow as a person and as an entrepreneur.

    I completely understand that you are frustrated, and this is not a good start for you. Trust me, there are individuals out there that truly can help you and inspire you to move forward. Those are the individuals that you should be connecting with.

    Let me know if you would like to know more.

    Keep on going. The more you seek, the more you shall find.

    Eirik.
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    • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
      Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

      If it bothers you guys so much why not set up your own lists and take on these "gurus"?

      See if you make more money doing it your way.
      -----
      Is everything about making more money, even when your income may already be more than sufficient?

      Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

      -----
      I work with a guy who's had 30,000 people unsubscribe from his list, but he doesn't care... it leaves him with the buyers.
      Two honest questions;

      Doesn't his reputation, and the fact that he must be knowingly annoying a lot of his subscribers, mean anything to the guy? I know people can unsubscribe, but they'll still leave the list with a bad impression.

      Is it all about the money?

      Originally Posted by Eirik Ringstad View Post

      -----
      These people do nothing more than ruining the reputation of Online Marketing as well as Network Marketing in general.
      -----
      That's my feeling too.

      Originally Posted by Eirik Ringstad View Post

      -----
      My best advice to you is to find a select few individuals out there that truly add value to your life and business through their newsletters and that connect with you in a way that inspires you to grow as a person and as an entrepreneur.
      -----
      That's the route I like to follow too. There are lots of middle tier marketers, and also some "gurus", out there that treat you with due respect and from whom you can learn a lot. So why bother with the annoying, self centered ones?
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      Oscar Toft

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      • Profile picture of the author Matt James
        LOl: you mean like buy now as after today the price doubles... then tomorrow it's the same message? Or limited to 100 then they sell 1,000+? Or how about they tell you how great this product is but no evidence they have even used it... I could go on but you get the point....
        I meant at least they're honest they're trying to sell you something. If you know you're just going to get pitches from these guys either hit the unsubscribe button or look at the products being promoted, read the e-mail copy - learn something for chrissakes!

        Is everything about making more money, even when your income may already be more than sufficient?
        Erm, we're in a forum dedicated to "making money online".

        People complaining about being sold to in a marketing forum, oh the irony!
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        • Profile picture of the author JazzOscar
          Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

          -----
          Erm, we're in a forum dedicated to "making money online".
          -----
          Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything in life should be about making unlimited amounts of money, whatever the means may be.

          Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

          -----
          People complaining about being sold to in a marketing forum, oh the irony!
          I see you use the usual statement used to try to place people like me in the "whiners" group. For your information;
          • I'm not a whiner or complainer
          • I've nothing against being sold to
          • I just think it should be possible to have another opinion than the aggressive marketers on how to show your subscribers and potential customers due respect. I think I'm not alone on that one.
          To sum it up; I've been an offline one-man-show IT consultant for 25 years. If I had treated my customers with the use an throw away mentality some online marketers do, I would have been out of business years ago.

          The only thing that makes it possible to market the way they do, is the endless row of new prospects online. They also usually don't have to meet fed up customers eye to eye. However, I don't think the fact that this kind of marketing is possible to do online makes it any more right to do.
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          Oscar Toft

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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    When I first started, it wasn't like that. People who pitched 'too much' didn't seem to do so well.

    But the fact that so many people do nothing but pitch these days seems to indicate that this is 'what works' now. The gurus are not under any obligation to provide pitch-free training.

    However, there are still people out there who provide greats chunks of information for free and don't join in every pitch-fest.

    Martin Avis, Harvey Segal, Dr Andy, Kurt, Neil Shearing all provide great information for free.

    Pearson
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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    what gets me is that you sign up for a free newsletter and to me all you get are links to their products or jvs your doing and they send you at least one a day.

    When i started mine 4 years ago i never wanted this so always create a nicely written one that i send weekly that i have made the effort to put into pdf and i get constant thanks for it.

    Do you think the big wigs get that!

    I also get a good rates on aweber of people reading it!

    I would rather do this and spend another 2 hrs a week on it than churning out rubbish day in day out on a daily basis.

    I also make sure that my customers on my list get more freebies than products that i try and sell them. Plus in a lot of cases ive set up a bond with my members before theyve joined my list. from say helping them with their product, suggesting ideas for them or giving them a review on their ebook. This way trust is always there.

    Im now not on any of the top dogs email lists cos im just sick of the rubbish they send me and i bet there is a lot of you here today that could say the same?
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    It's one of the formulas for making big money in the IM niche.

    - Develop a product/service that lots of list owners believe they can make money on...

    - Signup for all the JV notifications services/hangouts...

    - Let all of them know about your product/service and how much money they can make...

    - Launch your product/service...

    - Make sure you collect email addresses when they send you prospects... they don't care if your followup does not include them.

    - Now you have a pretty big list...

    - Send emails to your list at least 3 times per week just just like the rest of them...

    Make big money!!!

    I'm on at least 75-100 ( maybe more ) lists and I see it all also.

    I don't pay much attention to the email account with the 75 gurus but I do check it out at least once a week for new stuff that may be helpful.

    But I am never induced into buying anything I really don't need just because it's the latest and greatest thing etc.

    Most of the time, just 2 months later, the high priced product has been duplicated by someone and now costs 10-20% of the high priced original offer and some of the gurus will also promoting that product.

    TL
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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    I gave you the names of five well-known people who treat people exactly the way you say you want to be treated.

    Martin Avis, Harvey Segal, Dr Andy, Kurt, Neil Shearing


    Phil Wiley sent out a great newsletter this morning.


    There is another way - but you seem to be more concerned about having a moan than recognizing this.

    Pearson
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by pearsonbrown View Post

      I gave you the names of five well-known people who treat people exactly the way you say you want to be treated.

      Martin Avis, Harvey Segal, Dr Andy, Kurt, Neil Shearing


      Phil Wiley sent out a great newsletter this morning.


      There is another way - but you seem to be more concerned about having a moan than recognizing this.

      Pearson
      Thanks for the compliment Pearson...

      However, honestly I don't belong on this list of names for the simple fact I've never had a list.


      As far as the OP's point, are the gurus sending out only ads also instructing/teaching others to send out quality content? Are they the same people preaching that we all need to "move the free line" and "content is king"?

      Puddy doesn't suggest sending high quality content, so he's practicing what he preaches, and he's entirely consistent with his point of view. It's the experts that say/sell one thing, then do just the opposite that creates a problem, IMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimG
      I would also like to add the following 2 names to your list:

      Josh Spaulding - Sign up for his list to receive the updates he places on his outstanding blog.

      Dennis Becker - You should see the amount of material he provides to the members of his forum.

      Respectfully,
      Tim

      Originally Posted by pearsonbrown View Post

      I gave you the names of five well-known people who treat people exactly the way you say you want to be treated.

      Martin Avis, Harvey Segal, Dr Andy, Kurt, Neil Shearing


      Phil Wiley sent out a great newsletter this morning.


      There is another way - but you seem to be more concerned about having a moan than recognizing this.

      Pearson
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
    I agree completely, all I seem to get these days is offers, or offers disguised as content.

    Course on the other hand, seems it's prime for some one to give real content. If every one is getting slammed with offers, would be refreshing to get something useful
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    The solution is simple: Unsubscribe.

    Oscar, your comparison of online IM and off line consulting is a poor comparison. I was an offline consultant and service tech for 20 years. Of COURSE you would not market to them as you would on line. On the internet, it's about volume...like it or not. There's an endless stream of people coming on line every day and whether you want to believe this or not - they look for and WANT to be pitched the latest products.

    This subject seems to come up a lot - but the bottom line is if you don't like this kind of marketing it's very easy to unsubscribe.

    I put all of these emails in a separate email address used solely for this kind of thing. I go in occasionally and skim the subject lines looking for trends, or powerful (not misleading) subject lines, etc.

    There is more you can do with these emails than simply complain about them. Learn from them. Or unsubscribe. Things won't change by complaining on the WF - they change with action. When these guys either stop making money, or lose their subscribers, they will reevaluate their methods.

    And I too find it ironic the amount of complaints on a marketing and make money forum about being marketed to... it's like going in to a supermarket and complaining there's too many food items, and that they put them out just to make money from you.

    Pearson gave a good list - if you want less pitching emails, find people who don't pitch so much and give content.

    I would add Paul Myers to that list too

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author ArthurRose
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by ArthurRose View Post

      That is why you should not subscribe to any "guru". You will get spam and nothing more. Just bookmark pages you are interested in, but don't expect to get anything useful out of those newsletters.


      Hmm I know your on my list somewhere, can you tell me your real name so i can go unsubscribe you please.

      Your cavalier use of the word spam and your general attitude to emai promotions mean you and i are not a good fit, best for both of us if i unsubscribe you


      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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        • Profile picture of the author James Clark
          This is a hot topic these days. My question to you is this. Why are you on ten different mailing lists? What that means to me, you're going in ten different directions every day. How can you expect to learn how to market online with all those different concepts about how to do things?

          In this business, if I said it once, I said it a thousand times. There is a difference between the way you teach things and what works in the real world. The Gurus are not in the charity business. They are in the business of making money.

          If you don't know who to listen to, send me a *PM* and I will tell you. My guess is you won't like what you hear, because when I tell you how much work this is, you might start running to the nearest out house.


          They might be telling you "what to do" but what you need to know is "how to do it" In a nut shell, what to do is free, but how to do it... well you know the answer.

          Jimmy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    this comes up all the time...

    When i bothered to do a newsletter with articles and all that stuff i never made anymoney, well not enough and people still unsubscribed when i sent a newsletter

    content or no content unsubscribe rate stays the same, if i told you where to dig up gold bricks in your own back yard people would unsubcribe at the same rate as if i sold you the map to find the gold bricks unburied and neatly stacked and ready to pick up of the ground.

    So i sell the maps

    Robert
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  • I will now get off my soapbox and ask what you all think about this. Am I just whining or have I finally opened my eyes to a disturbing truth? Thanks for listening!
    No, I would say it sounds like you are spot on. I think thats kind of the general trend in IM and probably always has been.

    It's very unfortunate and frustrating for people who are trying to be reasonably honest, but that's life i guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
    Yes, I'm on the big guru lists too, and it is all promotion after promotion.

    No answer, nor critique, but a observation. All I can do is take care of my own list.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArthurRose
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Originally Posted by floridatroy View Post

    Also, many of those dozens of emails would push the same product 5+ times in that three week period.
    Have you ever seen the same commercial shown repeatedly
    on the television?

    Have you ever seen the same advert over and over again
    in a newspaper?

    Have you ever seen the same forum signature file on lots
    of forum posts.

    Do the same banner adverts appear on more than one website?

    Do you see several refernces to a single site on Twitter?

    Have you ever seen the same posters in different locations?

    Marketing is a process.

    Repetition sells.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      Have you ever seen the same commercial shown repeatedly
      on the television?

      Have you ever seen the same advert over and over again
      in a newspaper?

      Have you ever seen the same forum signature file on lots
      of forum posts.

      Do the same banner adverts appear on more than one website?

      Do you see several refernces to a single site on Twitter?

      Have you ever seen the same posters in different locations?

      Marketing is a process.

      Repetition sells.

      John
      This is BULLSHIT!!! I'm not watching any more TV EVER AGAIN!!

      Oh, and I refuse to listen to the radio too now that I realized it's no different than
      these email lists that I am on.

      Guys and girls -- you want some cheese with that wine?

      Most of these "Gurus" release great content, but only to those that pay for it. (Hint)

      Even myself (and I'm nowhere near Guru status and could care less either way) , only
      my coaching students get shielded from promos.

      But as a list owner and marketer, I understand that not everything is for everyone.

      My hope is that whatever I'm promoting at the time will be right for someone on my list,
      and I am and should be compensated for it by way of a commission.

      You're on my list and want to learn all the secrets to my success, PAY ME for this knowledge
      and my time, and I'll be glad to share.

      My 2 cents
      Jay Dinner
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
    I just spent about 15 minutes unsubscribing from a number of lists, because they were 'honest' as one person put it, by trying to sell me without pretending to teach or offer. Which in and of its self would be fine IF that was honest.

    Some of these were "newsletters" which had no news except "hey this product is new, buy it from my clickbank link!"

    Some of these were "free e-courses" which consisted of only offer after offer after offer of things to buy without TEACHING anything (except how to unsubscribe I guess).

    Some of these were supposed to be 'review and opinion' oriented lists. Yet they were all sell, no insight.

    If any of them did offer something for free, it was an offer where you can get this free just by entering your name and email address (and thus opt-in to another list owned by the same or another marketer).

    If I'm signing into your list, be honest with me about what the list is. Don't tell me you're going to, for example, teach me how to create professional website templates, and then only send me offers to buy different web creation software, courses, etc. Give me what you said you were going to give.

    I've even found lists where people abuse their membership site with the logic of "When you signed up as a member you agreed to receive notifications from the administrator, so I can blast you with 5 to 30 messages a week if I want. If you ask to be unsubscribed, I'll take away your membership as well."

    So let me get this straight... I'm PAYING YOU to be a member of your site so you can try to sell me more products?

    Needless to say, I've learned what little this person had to offer, and I've happily walked away from his membership site.
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  • Profile picture of the author RichOnlineCEO
    Well this thread was humorous to me. You actually think gurus care about you? That they care for anything more than what's in your wallet?

    haha
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by RichOnlineCEO View Post

      Well this thread was humorous to me. You actually think gurus care about you? That they care for anything more than what's in your wallet?

      haha
      Helpful - insightful..not.

      Bumping your post count?

      I fail to see why this subject elicites such emotion. This is a business.

      I will agree with Robert Puddy on one of his posts...

      I have a list specificly for promotions. I also have one that combines softsell and good content.

      My unsubscribe and complaint rate is pretty much the same in both.

      And, my Thank You rate is pretty much the same in both.

      What does that tell you?

      Stop being so insulted that people are looking to make a buck in their emails. It's business.

      If you are compelled to treat ALL your subscribers with kid gloves, go for it. If you THINK you can make them ALL happy? Well, find a new line of work.

      Look - I had this same opinion a few years back: "Oh - all I get are pitch emails! They don't give me content"

      Then I got on a few lists that DO give good content, and you know what? I hardly read those either (there are exceptions, of course).

      At the end of the day, it's all about how you choose to spend your time in your business. If you are noticing and getting bothered by "all those pitch emails", then I would venture to say you're spending too much time in your inbox

      If you schedule a specific block of time to go through your emails, you'll find that you'll complain less because you will recognize the emails you want, skim or delete the rest, then go on with business.

      Email is only a small part of my business. I am much happier understanding this. Makes my day much more pleasant

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author RichOnlineCEO
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Helpful - insightful..not.
        Bumping your post count?
        Pure truth in few words is hard to stomach.

        I could of had 5,000 posts I would of said the same thing

        The rest of your post not surprisingly justified why you sell to your list

        Don't beat around the bush just come out and say it

        "My list makes a heap of money because I sell products to the people on it" *GASP*
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by RichOnlineCEO View Post

          Pure truth in few words is hard to stomach.

          I could of had 5,000 posts I would of said the same thing

          The rest of your post not surprisingly justified why you sell to your list

          Don't beat around the bush just come out and say it

          "My list makes a heap of money because I sell products to the people on it" *GASP*

          I DID say that. Weren't you paying attention?

          Or is subtlety not your thing?

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          • Profile picture of the author RichOnlineCEO
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            I DID say that. Weren't you paying attention?

            Or is subtlety not your thing?

            You got me... I'm not a subtle man
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    Let me get this straight: you signed up for lists, and people tried to sell you stuff? What a scandal.

    Next you'll be telling me you went to the mall and the salespeople tried to sell you stuff, rather than give you tips and tricks.
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    • Profile picture of the author floridatroy
      Are you kidding me Chris and Jason??? Hey Chris, maybe I have to draw pictures for you. If you actually READ my OP you will see that it is actually about EXCESSIVE EMAILS!!! I expect to be pitched in emails, just not every single one, and it would be nice if it was not 5-7 pitch emails per week. And Jason, the gurus release great content? Who are you kidding? Most of the programs out there are nothing more than bits and pieces of a larger puzzle so that these people can make more and more money. Nothing wrong with that at all, but to deceive people in thinking and many times saying " this is the last program, guide, plan that you will ever have to buy" is what is truely BULLSH**!!! Love this discussion. Have a great day all!
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      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by floridatroy View Post

        Are you kidding me Chris and Jason??? Hey Chris, maybe I have to draw pictures for you. If you actually READ my OP you will see that it is actually about EXCESSIVE EMAILS!!! I expect to be pitched in emails, just not every single one, and it would be nice if it was not 5-7 pitch emails per week. And Jason, the gurus release great content? Who are you kidding? Most of the programs out there are nothing more than bits and pieces of a larger puzzle so that these people can make more and more money. Nothing wrong with that at all, but to deceive people in thinking and many times saying " this is the last program, guide, plan that you will ever have to buy" is what is truely BULLSH**!!! Love this discussion. Have a great day all!
        LMFAO!!

        It's ok. Do you want a hug? I think you need one.

        Here's my virtual hug. I'm hugging you right now

        You feel better yet?

        And yes, there are certain products out there that cover certain topics
        that would be ALL you would ever need to purchase to make a living online.

        I'm not going to sit here and list them.

        And also, there are several great tools and services that come out that help
        speed up the process, so why not tell people about them?

        I pitch in every email to my subscribers that get access to my content for free.

        My most valued subscribers, my coaching students, don't get hit with offers unless
        they have multiple email addresses on multiple lists.

        I already stated my stance on it, don't feel like repeating myself.

        Read one of my previous posts. Maybe the first or second.

        Peace!!
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by floridatroy View Post

        Are you kidding me Chris and Jason??? Hey Chris, maybe I have to draw pictures for you. If you actually READ my OP you will see that it is actually about EXCESSIVE EMAILS!!! I expect to be pitched in emails, just not every single one, and it would be nice if it was not 5-7 pitch emails per week. And Jason, the gurus release great content? Who are you kidding? Most of the programs out there are nothing more than bits and pieces of a larger puzzle so that these people can make more and more money. Nothing wrong with that at all, but to deceive people in thinking and many times saying " this is the last program, guide, plan that you will ever have to buy" is what is truely BULLSH**!!! Love this discussion. Have a great day all!

        It's still easy to stop getting and reading these emails. It's quicker than coming here and complaining, no?

        I spoke to many people with lists and you know what I found out? That the more you email them the more money you make.

        I already understand the fact that whether you provide awesome content or not, the unsubscribe rate is the same. Did you not read that part? It's 100% true.

        And I agree with Jason - people who pay for my personal coaching, guidance, whatever, won't get those pitch emails.

        It seems to me that so many people want the best of both worlds - to be able to sign up to every list for free and get the brass ring in information from every one of them. Sorry, that's not how it works. Not now, nor has it ever.

        Find the ones you like and stick with them. You will be happier in the long run.

        Mike

        Oh, and I am willing to bet that all those who complain about all these pitch emails would fall all over themselves to get their products pitched by these same people. If one of these "guru's" sent you an email saying: "Dude - I love your product. Give me an affiliate link so I can blast it to my list of 200,000..." you'd be the happiest camper here.

        Go ahead - tell me I'm wrong
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          I love these threads that start off with titles like this. They get people's blood in an uproar, and you get to see what folks are really all about.

          The problem is, they almost never get to the real issues. In this one, they did. Nice.

          The two I see here are easy: Honesty and responsibility.

          Honesty on the part of the list owner: Do they deliver what they promised before the person subscribed? If not, there's a legitimate beef, and something worth discussing.

          If they deliver what was promised, it's down to responsibility on the part of the subscriber. You have to choose.

          Does it fit with what you need, and help you get closer to your goals? If yes, no problem. If no, then unsubscribe. You're not doing anyone a favor by staying on the list.

          I am not the Lorax. I don't speak for the publishers. But, speaking for myself...

          As long as the content that I send out is within the description given before they subscribed, and there's a working unsubscribe mechanism, that's the end of the deal.

          Beyond that, I don't owe my subscribers anything. And they don't owe me anything at all.

          That probably sounds harsh to some people, but if you think about it, you'll see that it's the most benevolent and respectful approach you can take. No expectations, no pressure, no attempts to guilt people into doing things they don't want to do.

          I don't get to tell people they have to read every email from me. They don't get to dictate my editorial policies. Etc.

          Mutual respect and exchange of value. Nice system, huh?

          Do you really think you're going to change anyone's editorial policies or content choices by posting this kind of thread?

          If so, I think we've reached a point at which I can channel the Lorax, and speak for the vast majority of publishers:

          Forget it. Ain't happening.

          That doesn't mean I don't think feedback is important. I ask for it, often. More than anyone whose emails I read, with the possible exceptions of Marlon Sanders and Robert Plank. I get a lot of it, both requested and unasked for. I read every single bit of it, and reply to most of it. I think about it. And then I make my own decisions.

          If I make the right choices, enough of my subscribers will get what they want, and I'll get what I want. If I choose poorly, they'll unsubscribe, or just ignore me. In that case, I may not get what I want, but I'll get what I deserve.

          Threads like this will not affect those decisions one way or the other.

          So, rant on, brothers and sisters. We'll listen, but that doesn't mean we'll do anything about it.


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

          It's still easy to stop getting and reading these emails. It's quicker than coming here and complaining, no?

          I spoke to many people with lists and you know what I found out? That the more you email them the more money you make.

          I already understand the fact that whether you provide awesome content or not, the unsubscribe rate is the same. Did you not read that part? It's 100% true.

          And I agree with Jason - people who pay for my personal coaching, guidance, whatever, won't get those pitch emails.

          It seems to me that so many people want the best of both worlds - to be able to sign up to every list for free and get the brass ring in information from every one of them. Sorry, that's not how it works. Not now, nor has it ever.

          Find the ones you like and stick with them. You will be happier in the long run.

          Mike

          Oh, and I am willing to bet that all those who complain about all these pitch emails would fall all over themselves to get their products pitched by these same people. If one of these "guru's" sent you an email saying: "Dude - I love your product. Give me an affiliate link so I can blast it to my list of 200,000..." you'd be the happiest camper here.

          Go ahead - tell me I'm wrong

          Mike... Mike

          Your not telling the ******** to either shit or get off the pot are you hahahahaha


          And to answer the question form the OP directly... They do get it... its you that don't
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      • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
        Originally Posted by floridatroy View Post

        If you actually READ my OP you will see that it is actually about EXCESSIVE EMAILS!!!
        What's "excessive"?

        I'm on a list that sends me a minimum of 7 emails every workday. I
        subscribed because I want to receive them. When I want them to
        stop sending them I'll unsubscribe. I won't feel the need to post
        about it on a forum which is dedicated to the making of money.

        John
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
        Originally Posted by floridatroy View Post

        Are you kidding me Chris and Jason??? Hey Chris, maybe I have to draw pictures for you. If you actually READ my OP you will see that it is actually about EXCESSIVE EMAILS!!!
        I'm not kidding. You sound pretty clueless about this. Is that clear enough for you?

        What is "excessive"? I just met Matt Furey this weekend, who usually sends 5-10 emails a week, and I'm sure he's doing 1000 times better than you are.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

          I'm not kidding. You sound pretty clueless about this. Is that clear enough for you?

          What is "excessive"? I just met Matt Furey this weekend, who usually sends 5-10 emails a week, and I'm sure he's doing 1000 times better than you are.
          Matt Furey's emails are a trip. I've been on his list for years and he does email A LOT. But his emails are entertaining at least and he usually promotes his own stuff not every IM product out there like most of the big hitters in IM do.

          I see where the OP is coming from. I don't understand why everyone is ganging up on him. It's different approaches. The big A-listers have lists of 50K, 100K, 200K+ they do the splatter sytle marketing without a problem and that's cool. They throw a bunch of mud on the wall and see what sticks. They probably get more unsubsribes in one mailer that I have on my list. They're more on quantatity vs. quality. And hell we know it works for them they make a lot of money so that's cool. But there are others who are more user-friendly with their lists and that is cool as well.

          FLTroy, there are a lot of great marketers that offer a lot of great content not just promos. If it bugs you so much you just need to unsub from the big A-listers list. It's just a different approach. There is a large group of folks who think outside the box and send valuable content not just pitches.

          A few good ones have been mentioned here already. They may not make millions like the gurus but they make a good living and offer great tips and free content in their mailings. And their promotions are spot on not just the latest hyped up product.

          But in answer to your question they get it. And you're not the prospect they want on their list so you might as well unsubscribe.
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  • Profile picture of the author SlickSki
    Isn't the whole point to make money? Isn't this a job we're doing to do exactly that? Sugar coating your pitches with informative emails in between doesn't mean you're wanting to make money any less than the marketers who purely send out pitches.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    Hey, I haven't emailed my list in a few days.

    My list is about 25K strong.

    I've been in the top 10 affiliates for many launches, even the ones where all the
    heavy hitters promoted. I've won a few myself too.

    Would anybody (in this thread ONLY) like me to promote your product to my list of internet marketers?

    Don't PM me about it. Just reply to this thread.

    Thanks,
    Jason
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      Would anybody (in this thread ONLY) like me to promote your product to my list of internet marketers?
      Of course they would, even those who are complaining.

      BTW, I saw a McDonald's commercial last month, and they have the nerve to show it again today. Don't they know I already saw it? Shouldn't they be teaching me how to make hamburgers? I think they're just in it for the money. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post


      Would anybody (in this thread ONLY) like me to promote your product to my list of internet marketers?

      Don't PM me about it. Just reply to this thread.
      Erm... let me see.. thinking... erm... oh, OK then. ;-)

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author jficarro
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      Hey, I haven't emailed my list in a few days.

      My list is about 25K strong.

      I've been in the top 10 affiliates for many launches, even the ones where all the
      heavy hitters promoted. I've won a few myself too.

      Would anybody (in this thread ONLY) like me to promote your product to my list of internet marketers?

      Don't PM me about it. Just reply to this thread.

      Thanks,
      Jason
      Heck yeah!!! I'll join your list now to see what your style and target market is, then I'll get back to you.

      James
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  • Profile picture of the author bookiebuster
    There are a few that provide good info but most are just out for the quick sale.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Oliver
      The way I look at it is I selected
      to put my name and email address
      into an optin form to get information.
      Nobody twisted my arm to do this

      I now have the option to just unsubscribe
      when I am ready to. When I get an
      obusive emailer, I just hit the unsubscribe
      link and all is well.

      Robert













      Robert
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      full? The difference can mean success or
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  • Profile picture of the author James12C
    Yes... And yes.... I like the repeats, actually - deleting is dead easy but it also shows who is pushing what. Lighten up.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Tracy Yates
    Personally, I'm on a ton of mailing lists, and yes, the authors do send out a lot of product endorsement type emails, but I have a different take on it...

    By staying on all these lists, I get to see firsthand what the newest products are, how the other marketers are, well, marketing them, and maybe how I can incorporate that into my own selling arsenal.

    So, even if all a certain someone is doing is sending off ad after ad to their mailing list(s), you still have the ability to learn something. Just got to think positively about it all.

    And if you don't like the list, you can always unsubscribe


    Tracy
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetM39482
    Hey, take positives out of it.

    The gurus send their emails to you...and they expect you to buy. They don't put their hand in your wallet and take money outta it. If you don't like What they do, a simple solution is to unsubscribe.

    Or, hey, you could just learn a little from them. I also receive emails from many people, and read all of 'em. I try to learn what tactics they are using, and how I can add it to my own arsenal. That's one benefit for you.

    Excessive emailing? Heck, We have the same Pepsi advertisement running over here more than a couple of times between overs when a cricket match is being telecast. Shouldn't they show you in between how to play Brett Lee?

    If you have too much of a problem with excessive emailing, just use two emails. One for your work, one for those emails. That way you have best of both the worlds - you learn from those marketers, you know what's new on the market, and you don't get disturbed.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhab
    In my opinion, you're subscribed to the "Guru's" lists for the wrong reasons. Selling and promoting to their lists is what they do, it's their business model so to speak. Most of them have long since left the trenches and now they make their money off of their following and promoting every new launch that comes out. They're out to make as much money as they can just like everyone else.

    Last year I unsubscribed from the majority of my lists. I kept a small handful of "guru's" ONLY to keep tabs on the products and material they are promoting. I like to know about the latest trends, what's selling, and what techniques are being pushed so i can stay up to date, research them myself, and decide on my own if it's worth pursuing. I don't stay subscribed to them for anything else.

    Once you have a profitable formula for yourself, something that works and is making you money, that's what you need to focus on. Not jumping from product to product that your guru list is feeding you.

    Outside of the small guru list I keep tabs on, my other lists are from marketers who are still in the trenches, practicing what they preach and making their money from what they are actually teaching. They provide valuable FREE information on top of what they feel can help your efforts. These guys don't jump on the bandwagon for every launch in town.

    It took me a while, but I learned the importance of networking! It was only then when i started networking with real, down to earth marketers doing what I wanted to do that I myself started making real money!

    These are the people you truly need to follow. The guru's, well they are what they are and they do what they do lol =p
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Here's my take, purely from the subscriber side...

      My sometimes frustration with marketers' emails (guru or not) lies not in how many emails they send, nor how often they send them. My frustration lies with how many of them are simply lazy or uninspired.

      I love a good pitch email, whether I'm interested in the product or not, because I learn something new or I get another contribution to my swipe file.

      I love a good content email, one that's well written or teaches me something new.

      A so-called 'pure content' email that's simply another regurgitation of a PLR pack I've already seen several times goes in the same pile as the cut-n-paste affiliate promos. Pitch or content, the flies don't seem to care much either way.

      You want to know the really good news?

      Software designers understand my frustration. They built this handy tool right into their email programs that lets me put those lazy, uninspired emails on the digital compost heap with one quick twitch of a very small muscle...

      They called it a "Delete" key.

      If you are original, entertaining or enlightening, or if you offer me something I'm interested in, there is no such thing as 'excessive' email. Send me the same lazy, uninspired dreck, and twitch - you're gone...

      I now return you to your regular raving...
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        John,
        Pitch or content, the flies don't seem to care much either way.
        That one gets the "best line of the week" award.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Takuya Hikichi
        It used to be that all a marketer had to do to sell was explain the features and benefits. That soon changed to people having to experience. Today with all the socialization that takes place on the web, the need to belong to certain outcome, certain tribe and certain launch promotion is becoming much more part of making buying decisions.

        Perhaps the real problem that bothers some folks is that some marketers are still promoting to their lists the same way today as it was done decades ago -- simply explaining features and benefits (alone). This gets old real quick.

        I hardly buy any of these products today, but I love being part of every promotion that takes place on the web. I can learn so many things from those launches.

        1. StomperNet - most popular community of IM (tribe)
        2. Mass Control - most skillful promotion series (movement)
        3. Product Launch Formula - most emulated launch (social proof)

        These are just a few examples of marketers who know what the market wants and lead the industry.

        Now it's true some marketers do religiously promote to their lists. However, just as in religion, if I don't want to accept certain messages, I can always hit unsubscribe. Nobody is forcing me to read their unwanted literature here.

        There are many ways to sell to lists and it is a "diversity" that just happens to exist in IM community. I can respect other people and their marketing styles -- if it was all the same, the IM community would be extremely boring.

        In my opinion, good questions to be always asking are

        • "How can I relate to my list?"
        • "How can my subscribers relate to me?"

        As long as I gain something after reading an email, it's worth spending time reading that email - with or without pitch.
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  • Profile picture of the author jficarro
    Jason, unless you were being sarcastic... send me a PM with your squeeze page so I can join your list.

    I don't begrudge the OP's position. I get turned off by some of the "gurus" too. But obviously, that's what we do for a living. It's just nice to mix in some excellent content, some value added material, and of course some sort of pitch is necessary or else how do you make a living.

    I just got an email from one of the biggest, subtly pitching a merchant account. Of course it's an affiliate merchant account. I was a little disappointed in the guru... but what was the first thing I did - I signed up to be an affiliate and now am pushing this to my clients (offline and online) (Ok, I'm a hypocrite!!!) Of course I checked it out and believe it to be beneficial to my clients. But of course, I see the monetary benefit for myself and am excited about it. I'm helping my clients and making money. Isn't that what it's all about?

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    The small and medium IM marketer probably takes better care of their subscribers becuase they can be hard to get. Every time you lose one you think, "Oh hell what did I do wrong?"

    Remember, a lot of the big guys got their lists from doing huge product launches and they may be getting many, many opt-ins a day. They may be getting over 10,000 a day in some cases. For them it's all numbers. Rather than writing great content for you in their mails--it's much more profitable to work on new products to launch and realize they may lose hundreds of subscribers a day--they can live with that.

    You are right, I get much better emails from the little guys. But the gurus aren't stupid either. IM is a business. They do what makes them the most money and that is by growing their list and "hitting the send button often. They're out to make a buck just like we are. That's just how it works.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Lee
    I found that I almost have the same unsubscribe rate whether I give helpful content or send a promo.

    So every week now, I send a content email (video and articles), and 2 promos (either semi-promo or full promo). But I try to give as much value as I can in the 2 promos, like giving them a free report or article first and/or negotiating a discount with the vendor.

    I think the reason why some people subscribe to many marketers' list is because they want to get updated on the latest news and trends, despite knowing they'll be pitched a lot.

    An alternative to get updated is to simply go to imnewswatch.com everyday for the latest IM news.
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  • Profile picture of the author shane_k
    I bet if you were only subscribed to only one or two email lists you wouldn't mind so much, because it wouldn't have seemed like so much emails or pitches were being sent to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author goldclubmember
    I myself have had enough of that, and that is why I have now unsubscribed to all but one or two of those email lists. It really is too bad that they seemed to have become completely oblivious to this fact.
    open a free email like gmail and subscribe to all, i know it is annoying sometimes, but we do can learn a lots of those emails, like i receive one offer from a guru a membership site of $1800 and before i decide to buy, another email say "dented copy" half the price with 2 installments ... all these are their tricks, but we do can learn from them and put into good use ...

    My op-in and conversion rates increase once i study and learn of all those so called gurus salesletter and emails ....
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Murphy
    Sounds like the OP is just frustrated and not looking at things from all angles.

    The first time I heard of Internet marketing was at a T. Harv Eker Live event. !st 5 minutes I thought "god, what a pitchfest this is..."

    Minutes later the lightbulb went on and I thought "ok, this is where I should REALLY be paying attention".

    Yes, some marketers broadcasts are pure crap (i.e. pitches for product they have never even heard of until asked to promote). Simple solution I think Mike Ambrosio stated....unsubscribe.

    I belong to many lists and I learn from them and I urge you to do the same. It looks like you're on the right track somewhat.

    Watch how often they email you, how often are the pitches, which ones interest YOU, which ones make you reach for YOUR wallet.

    Don't be afraid man...you're being sold to for sure, but in the process, it's teaching you to SELL.

    Keep your chin up dude...you're getting more value from watching these "pitch-a-holics" than you realize!

    Jason Dinner, when you can break free from that hug, I'd love to interview you for my new series...drop me a PM.
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  • Profile picture of the author rlnorthcutt
    It can be a bit disheartening to newbies to see that their vaulted "Gurus" are actually just regular marketers... and sometimes near-spam marketers.

    There are some lists I have been on for years - fellow warrior Ian Traynor is a good example. He sends out a monthly newsletter with great info, free downloads and good tips. Highly recommended.

    Personally, I use the Guru emails to help me build and maintain my "swipe file"... its like a free marketing course! They are using their best copy to sell you, and their sales pages do too. Sometimes I will jump off a list for awhile and then back on in 6 months to see what new techniques they have learned.

    The good news is that you have a choice on what kind of "guru" you want to be... so make a good choice. I personally think that less is more, and I'd rather have people on my list for years rather than days or weeks.

    Remember that every email is sent (or should be sent) with an unsubscribe link... so its not only easy to get off the list, but each email can increase the odds of the subscriber doing just that.

    Try not to get too discouraged. People are people... some are more aggresive with marketing than others. Keep your eyes open and you will find quite a few that are
    worth hanging on to.

    Ron
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    just saw this in a twitter conversation... Felt it applied to this thead enough to copy and paste it here.

    "Beginners get frustrated seeing gurus' success. What they didn't see were the many train wrecks on the way to that success."
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    If I get fed up with someone constantly pitching me then I hit the unsubscribe button.

    We are all trying to make money and yes some of us may also have noble goals as well, but without money no one can survive.

    A lot of guru's over-hype their products and there is a big push on right now to sell stuff at $1,997 when only a few years ago, the same volume of product would probably have sold for $497.

    So fewer sales but just as much, if not more money. They usually play the numbers game.

    Perhaps I should pitch more than I do, but I must say doing my own less-pushy thing is more comfortable for me. I also think in some ways it is easier to get sales these days if you don't push someone too hard.

    Care enough and give good value, and offer something that enough people want, and you will be fine.

    There are some very clever "guru's" and undoubtedly some of them are very nice people, however some of them are definitely just in it for the $$$'s, even if it means pissing off a percentage of people. It's their choice at the end of the day.
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