Why hasn't anyone created a whoisguard seperate from registrar

12 years ago

It doesn't work that way. What you describe is like starting your own phone book and letting people be "unlisted" for $2 or whatever price. That would not change the fact that the YellowPages would still list their information.

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cashtree

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel

It doesn't work that way. What you describe is like starting your own phone book and letting people be "unlisted" for $2 or whatever price. That would not change the fact that the YellowPages would still list their information.

You're allowed to change what information is shown in whois for registars i've seen so it absolutely works that way. you buy the domain, buy 3rd party bobs whois guard then put the info they tell you in the columns for whois. Name, address, whatever. I like how 3 gave you thanks when you didn't even given a correct answer.

Anyway it's a shame none have done this, is really no different than if you registered say Phills LLC and put that info for your whois, only difference is you'd be using 3rd part companies LLC whatever info for your domain, and that company then can forward emails etc... to you.

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Richard Van

12 years ago

Originally Posted by cashtree

You're allowed to change what information is shown in whois for registars i've seen so it absolutely works that way. you buy the domain, buy 3rd party bobs whois guard then put the info they tell you in the columns for whois. Name, address, whatever. I like how 3 gave you thanks when you didn't even given a correct answer.

Sorry but I always listen to Gene on domains as he has a lot of experience.

If he stands corrected, no problem.

Let's find out.

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cashtree 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Sorry but I always listen to Gene on domains as he has a lot of experience.

If he stands corrected, no problem.

Let's find out.

He's incorrect but i'm sure he's a very intelligent guy. I know a lot about domains too since I deal with them. iCANN rules only say the registration info for domains much be correct, not that it can't be a 3rd party. Also many european countries TLD's don't even display a good deal of registration info like registration dates. But for the use i'm saying you can go register Yourwhoisguardcompany LLC then put that as name, but registered agent address or business address(which can be the same) as address, etc etc...my idea is just use a 3rd party who's purpose is whois guard. Any mail they get they forward to you like normal.
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tpw

12 years ago

Originally Posted by cashtree

You're allowed to change what information is shown in whois for registars i've seen so it absolutely works that way. you buy the domain, buy 3rd party bobs whois guard then put the info they tell you in the columns for whois. Name, address, whatever. I like how 3 gave you thanks when you didn't even given a correct answer.

Anyway it's a shame none have done this, is really no different than if you registered say Phills LLC and put that info for your whois, only difference is you'd be using 3rd part companies LLC whatever info for your domain, and that company then can forward emails etc... to you.

You are in the hosting business.

If you think it is broken, then fix it.

That is not to say that you will be successful, but you should attempt to be part of the solution instead of part of the people who only whine about the problems they perceive to be real.

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Istvan Horvath

12 years ago

This article is from 2007 - even back then people had similar thoughts (see what is referred as OPOC):
If WHOIS Privacy is a Good Idea, Why is it Going Nowhere?

It looks you'd face the same difficulties described in the post...

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cashtree

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath

This article is from 2007 - even back then people had similar thoughts (see what is referred as OPOC):
If WHOIS Privacy is a Good Idea, Why is it Going Nowhere?

It looks you'd face the same difficulties described in the post...

Thanks, that looks like a complete overhaul, I was thinking smaller. EU privacy laws not a concern to me personally since I don't live in the EU. email forwarding can be automatic, only annoyance would be forwarding physical mail such as lawsuits or whatever. I want to believe those aren't common but with the mpaa and riaa trolls i'm sure they send out thousands a day domanding whatever. Could add up to a lot of effort.

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Gene Pimentel

12 years ago

This is why it doesn't make sense. If you allowed a third party to be assigned as your proxy, you are giving that third party full control over your domain name. That third party calls all the shots. Nothing can stop them from preventing you access to your own domain name. Nothing prevents them from stealing or selling your domain name. Nothing prevents them from interfering with the proxy emails sent through their email address. You have, in fact, given them legal control over your valuable asset.

It would be risky at best to allow a third party to have this control. When you purchase WHOIS privacy from the registrar itself, they simply must comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ICANN. They are forced to be reliable and responsible. If they go belly-up, your domain is still safe.

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cashtree

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel

This is why it doesn't make sense. If you allowed a third party to be assigned as your proxy, you are giving that third party full control over your domain name. That third party calls all the shots. Nothing can stop them from preventing you access to your own domain name. Nothing prevents them from stealing or selling your domain name. Nothing prevents them from interfering with the proxy emails sent through their email address. You have, in fact, given them legal control over your valuable asset.

It would be risky at best to allow a third party to have this control. When you purchase WHOIS privacy from the registrar itself, they simply must comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ICANN. They are forced to be reliable and responsible. If they go belly-up, your domain is still safe.

I disagree. When you purchase a domain the registrar has your personal info, and you have complete control over the domain. And that info you provided doesn't need to be the same info that need to be displayed via public whois. You could just then go rent a whois guard from bobs LLC have then they give you a email, name, address etc...to fill in for your whois info and then you manually go back and input that info. They still wouldn't have any control over the domain at all, nor the name servers or anything else, so no way they could sell it. Worse they could do is not forward email or regular mail you get via their 3938485@whoisguard.com or whatever they generated for you.

I did this for a LLC I own, bought with my premium paypal that has my regular name on it, but public whois info shows my company name and registered agent address. Registar tried to fight me on it because they don't know what they're doing and were confused about icann rules...but I politely pointed out to them they did the same and so have many others.

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Gene Pimentel

12 years ago

If it's "Bob's LLC" proxy email in the WHOIS account, they have full legal access to your domain name and account information.

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DireStraits

12 years ago

Because of TRUST, perhaps? Or lack thereof.

It's one thing using the whois protection offered as an addon service by your own registrar, and entirely another thing using that of a third party who'd then potentially be privy to any correspondence by individuals trying to make contact via a whois lookup, including transfer authorisations.

And it's just not practical, I don't think. At some registrars (correct me if I'm wrong, someone), while you can update Administrative, Technical and Billing contacts manually and independently of one another, the main Registrant contact details are sometimes mirrored from whatever you've listed in your main profile, and is forcibly the same across all domains within your account (unless changed by enabling the registrar's own whois protection). That means short of just assigning your anonymous whois to select domains, your entire account at that registrar would need to be rigged up with another company's details, officially making them the owners of your domain and your account, even though you're the only one with the login details.

Finally, it just doesn't make sense, frankly. Why would we need third-party whois protection when that offered by registrars themselves is perfectly adequate - not to mention free (or very nearly so) in many cases?

If you hate your registrar that much, switch to one that you're happy with. :p

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

I think there's something that's not being explained well here.

A domain registrar handles the process of listing a domain's contact info. There are valid practical and legal reasons for this, including the requirements of the contract that allows them to become and continue as registrars in the first place.

The system is not set up in a way that would make what you're suggesting possible.

That's why no-one is doing it.

Paul
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GarrieWilson

12 years ago

It would be risky at best to allow a third party to have this control. When you purchase WHOIS privacy from the registrar itself, they simply must comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ICANN. They are forced to be reliable and responsible. If they go belly-up, your domain is still safe.

Let's think...

One registrar went belly up a few years ago and lots of people lost domains.

The 3rd party would have control but so does every registrar that offers privacy protection. The registrar could go belly up and that domain would be an asset of the registrar. They could also steal it if they wanted.

A domain registrar handles the process of listing a domain's contact info. There are valid practical and legal reasons for this, including the requirements of the contract that allows them to become and continue as registrars in the first place.

The registrar would still handle the contact info. Nothing says I can't let you put my details instead of yours for the contact.

Garrie

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Garrie,

The registrar would still handle the contact info. Nothing says I can't let you put my details instead of yours for the contact.

That's only true as long as I'm the registrar of record for the domain. Which is kind of the point of requiring registrars to be licensed.

I don't even want to think about the security issues of allowing J. Random Marketer access to change information in the ICANN registries.

Paul

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GarrieWilson

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Garrie,That's only true as long as I'm the registrar of record for the domain. Which is kind of the point of requiring registrars to be licensed.

I don't even want to think about the security issues of allowing J. Random Marketer access to change information in the ICANN registries.

J Random wouldn't directly change it. J Random could give YOU details to enter at NameCheap to associate with the domain.

J Randoms address might be: 123 Office Suite 200

but you would use:

123 Office Suite 200-1

Could JR steal the domain since he would have access to your email on record? Sure but the same is true for any host or ESP "whose domain is listed."

It's very possible to open a 3rd party proxy service.

Which is kind of the point of requiring registrars to be licensed.

NameCheap uses Enom. A 3rd part and wasnt licensed originally. They can modify client details.

-g

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GarrieWilson

12 years ago

the main Registrant contact details are sometimes mirrored from whatever you've listed in your main profile

Nope. That would make who-is privacy pointless.

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DireStraits 12 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

Nope. That would make who-is privacy pointless.

No it wouldn't (and didn't, when I saw it) because the registrars in question allowed whois privacy to be enabled/disabled individually for domains (using only their own in-house whois protection).

In other words, some domains could have whois protection while others didn't, but as soon as one updated one's main account details, all domains under its control that weren't using whois protection had their Registrant contact updated (or would've/should've done, in theory) because there was simply no other way for this particular bit of information to be updated on an individual per-domain basis other than by enabling whois protection or pushing the domains out to separate accounts with different name/address details.

(As I say, all other points of contact - Administrative, Technical and Billing - could be updated freely and independently of one another; just not the Registrant.)

I realise this isn't how most registrars work but it was certainly how one or two did when I used them, several years ago, before consolidating my portfolio at NameCheap.

Anyway, that point aside, I'm still struggling to see a great deal of practical merit in what the OP is proposing. And even if it does exist, it'll apply and appeal to such a select, minuscule group of people that the service would be a bugger to justify and barely profitable.

Completely different from, say, real-world mail/address/postbox forwarding services.

Most rational people, if they're just not happy with their current registrar or any of the value-added options they offer, will move elsewhere. Simple. No hassle, no problems, no fuss, no reason to do anything else. It's not like there's a great paucity of choice. :p
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GarrieWilson

12 years ago

To the OP...

You could offer a 3rd party proxy service but the logistics would be expensive.

You would need:

- ways to forward emails (easy part)
- ways to forward postal mail
- have correct information for people
- deal w/ incoming calls
- etc.

Not to mention dealing with the legal aspets.

I have noticed some registrars (like NameSilo) says "mail not accepted" on the address portion but dont know how "legal" that is...

Garrie

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Garrie,

NameCheap uses Enom. A 3rd part and wasnt licensed originally. They can modify client details.

The point is, it has to be done through a licensed registrar.

Sure, you can give different details to the registrar, but that's YOU doing the change. Not a third party service. And if the goal is to save money, adding another layer to the process isn't going to achieve the desired result.

Note that the OP specifically asked why someone isn't doing it in a way that cut out the registrar.

Paul

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tpw

12 years ago

My previous domain registrar was collecting money from me and NOT paying ICAAN the registration fees.

They told me within their system that all of my payments were processed and they were updating my domain expiration dates, even though they were putting the money straight into their pockets.

My money domains had been purchased ten years in advance.

But all those extra domain fees were pissed away.

ICAAN seized their operations in 2009, which is why all of my domains went offline for 6 weeks in April and May, when my hosting company switched the server I was on and voided the original DNS data.

I was unable to update my DNS during the process, until ICAAN got me moved to a new registrar.

I was lucky in that the only domains I lost were ones that were empty waiting for a website and Adsense websites. I lost three domains during that process, because I failed to realize that the registrar was collecting my money but not processing the actual registrations.

It is difficult for me now to trust a registrar, let alone trust some third-party with my registrar data.

The only thing that gives me any faith in the registrar system at this time is that ICAAN selected my current registrar for me. That gives me some faith that my current registrar is trustworthy.

Some people tried to give me crap for picking a shoddy registrar, but I had been with them for 9 years, AND they were the registrar for over 3 million domain names, including some really big ones.

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davezan

12 years ago

Another reason is liability where the registrar gets sued, because their name is listed for the
domain's registrant allegedly engaged in some infringing activity. I'm rather typing this in a
rush, but check online for something like Moniker sued WHOIS and NameCheap sued WHOIS.

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GarrieWilson

12 years ago

The point is, it has to be done through a licensed registrar.

No. Only a licensed registrar can update the who-is dataBASE but anyone can update who-is data on the registrar end to be submitted to the who-is database. Provided they have account login and password.

Sure, you can give different details to the registrar, but that's YOU doing the change. Not a third party service. And if the goal is to save money, adding another layer to the process isn't going to achieve the desired result.

It's still YOU doing it when using the registrars service. (Depending on the service determines how its done. Some are one click, other just prepopulate data.)

A 3rd party proxy could save money IF you are with NameCheap or GoDaddy or any registrar that charges a yearly fee.

A 3rd party could automate it so "you" dont have to, I was using a simple solution example.

Note that the OP specifically asked why someone isn't doing it in a way that cut out the registrar.

I know. I actually answered that.

-g

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Why hasn't anyone created a whoisguard seperate from registrar

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