Blogger Threatened with Jail!!

74 replies
Have a look at this story

Health blogger threatened with jail time for advocating Paleo diet that cured his diabetes

This is what is happening in the good ole US of A

What ever happened to your constitutional right to free speech?
#blogger #jail #threatened
  • Profile picture of the author ksmusselman
    Absolutely INSANE. Ridiculous.

    Thanks for posting this though. My daughter-in-law is in NC and has a blog about cooking and nutrition, so I gave her a head's up and sent her the link to the story.

    God forbid anything like this happen to her and her site, especially being a Marine Wife!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Okay, folks, a bit of a reminder: Do not stray into the partisan political stuff. Let's keep this to the topic at hand.

      A few things to take from that story...

      1. Be really careful about giving health advice online. Especially if you don't have the training to prove your competence.

      2. Don't advocate things as cures for diseases that aren't considered curable. Or even that are, unless they're recognized by the FDA as such.

      3. Don't be surprised if you get grief if you ignore #1 and #2. Whether you happen to be right or not.

      That's how bureaucracies work, folks. There are good and bad things about that, but it's the reality in this country, and most others.


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      • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Okay, folks, a bit of a reminder: Do not stray into the partisan political stuff. Let's keep this to the topic at hand.

        A few things to take from that story...

        1. Be really careful about giving health advice online. Especially if you don't have the training to prove your competence.

        2. Don't advocate things as cures for diseases that aren't considered curable. Or even that are, unless they're recognized by the FDA as such.

        3. Don't be surprised if you get grief if you ignore #1 and #2. Whether you happen to be right or not.

        That's how bureaucracies work, folks. There are good and bad things about that, but it's the reality in this country, and most others.


        Paul
        do not agree

        threatened with jail? ppfft
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Rick Britton View Post

          do not agree

          threatened with jail? ppfft

          Doesn't matter if you agree or not.

          I write in alternative health fields sometimes. The laws are extremely succinct and very serious.

          NEVER use the word "cure" for ANYTHING unless you are quoting what a licensed medical authority has said. The word "cure" as it is used in relation to health remedies and drugs is PATENTED. You might be able to "kill" cancer - but unless you are a licensed medical practitioner or a pharmaceutical company - you can't "cure" it.

          You also cannot prescribe treatment if you are not licensed to do so. This is where this guy got into trouble. He is not licensed to do so. If you have a remedy, you can tell the story of how you used it and what the results were - but you cannot suggest to others that they do the same. Even telling your own story, you MUST include a disclaimer that states that you are not prescribing treatment and that all material is for informational purposes only - if someone is having a problem they need to see their doctor (in my disclaimers, I say Natureopath, rather than doctor) - and also that if they use your methods they do so at their own risk, as you are not prescribing treatment.

          This guy is getting slammed because he got excited about how he cured himself and actually prescribes his treatments for everyone. The problem is that people can get the same disease for a lot of different reasons. What works well for one person might not make a dent for another. Even licensed medical practitioners put themselves in jeopardy if they prescribe treatments as "cures" that have not been scientifically proven and accepted by the medical community.

          Whether the medical community has ulterior motives in keeping natural cures suppressed or not is very, very beside the point in this issue. The issue is legality - and this guy broke laws that are taken extremely seriously.
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        • Profile picture of the author onSubie
          Originally Posted by Rick Britton View Post

          do not agree

          threatened with jail? ppfft

          Talk to Kevin Trudeau about "Natural Cures They Don't Want You to Know About".

          Mahlon
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        This is gonna be fun!




        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Okay, folks, a bit of a reminder: Do not stray into the partisan political stuff. Let's keep this to the topic at hand.


        *Sigh*
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      • Profile picture of the author Claire Koch
        It has been a long time since they first made it clear to us that health claims would not be tolerated. Just don't do it. PERIOD. Look if you follow the rules you can do business online for free you're still in the gold rush age. Quit worrying about this and get out there and make some money before the gold rush closes. There will always be some rules. Make it your mission to be up on them, listen to other marketers. As much as I hate over flowing emails with marketers emails I get a lot of HEADS UPS allowing the emails through. You should do the same.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Okay, folks, a bit of a reminder: Do not stray into the
        partisan political stuff. Let's keep this to the topic at hand.

        A few things to take from that story...

        1. Be really careful about giving health advice online. Especially if you don't have the training to prove your competence.

        2. Don't advocate things as cures for diseases that aren't considered curable. Or even that are, unless they're recognized by the FDA as such.

        3. Don't be surprised if you get grief if you ignore #1 and #2. Whether you happen to be right or not.

        That's how bureaucracies work, folks. There are good and bad things about that, but it's the reality in this country, and most others.


        Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Let's get real. The link above leads to another blog by a guy who claims he just finished a 30 day diet and "cured" his diabetes.

      He claims the Diabetes Association is lying and has ulterior motives and his 30 day diet is a cure. Maybe you can do that in the UK but most states here would have a problem with dispensing medical advice....which is what he is doing.

      Truth is - the increase in Type2 diabetes is directly related to the increase of obesity - so dieting for 30 days to lose weight could remove his symptoms. Doesn't mean it's a cure for others but that seems to be his claim.

      What does this have to do with marketing? Truth in advertising?
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    *Sigh* Everything involving the internet and government these days turns into a "they're quelling our free speech" rally.
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    I don't see the problem.

    He could kill people. FACT!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by fin View Post

      He could kill people. FACT!
      Quoted for emphasis.

      THIS is why you should avoid dispensing health advice unless you know what you're doing and can prove it. And if you did, you'd be unlikely to do it on a blanket basis, without knowing the medical history of the person you were advising.


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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        ...you should avoid dispensing health advice unless you know what you're doing and can prove it. And if you did, you'd be unlikely to do it on a blanket basis, without knowing the medical history of the person you were advising.
        Paul

        Exactly. This is why I DO NOT write sales letters for medical or health products UNLESS the person who created it is a licensed health care professional. The number of marketers selling three dollars worth of rewritten PLR as "medical advice" is scary.

        Frankly, I don't want to play a part in hurting people by selling them bogus medical "cures." (I sleep better that way.) And, on top of that, the potential liability issues and FTC/FDA problems are a serious concern.

        In short... there are better, safer products to market.

        John
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  • Profile picture of the author RobIMJones
    Hiya!

    Wow, that's crazy! But I guess making such a bold claim would always attract attention, not always the good kind!

    Like Paul Myers said, it's more important than ever nowadays that people cai "prove" they know what they're talking about, for example with banking and financial advisors, they have to pass exams to PROVE they're capable of giving the right information.

    All the best!

    Rob Jones
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  • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
    I have to agree with Kay here.

    This is not as case of 'free speech'. This is a case of someone promoting a diet for their own ends and claiming that it cured a serious and long-term (usally life long) illness.

    Try setting up a market stall or shop and start dishing out the same kind of advice without any kind of license or qualification. Would you cry about losing free speech if you got shut down for that?

    'Free speech' does not mean being able to say what you like if following your advice can cause direct harm to others.
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  • Profile picture of the author DannyFikes
    I think the gov (and health organizations etc) don't know how to deal with the new ways that 'free speech' can be broadcast on such a massive scale.

    Not saying it's right or that it's wrong. But if you're going to making any public claims or giving out advice to the masses, you should expect to get some push back from SOME BODY at least, especially if your message is controversial or threatening to some groups reputation.

    Can't please everyone. Especially the people with lots of power...
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Rick Britton View Post

    Blogger Threatened with Jail!!
    Respectfully, Rick, the thread's title is tabloid journalism at its very worst.

    It may be factually correct, but it's also grotesquely misleading: the man wasn't threatened with jail for being a blogger. He was threatened with jail for doing something which can really damage other people's wellbeing and even their lives.

    Calling this "Blogger threatened with jail!!!" is on a par with the "Housepainter forming new government" line about Hitler's rise to power: it's technically true, but it's also completely misleading.

    Originally Posted by Rick Britton View Post

    What ever happened to your constitutional right to free speech?
    It was never such a strong one in the first place as many people imagined. Mercifully. Try making incendiary comments about people of other ethnicities (or half a dozen other things) in public and see where the "constitutional right to free speech" gets you. "You can tell your story to the judge in the morning" is where it gets you. Fortunately.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by Rick Britton View Post

    What ever happened to your constitutional right to free speech?

    In the United States you must be licensed by the government to practice medicine.

    Giving medical advice -- that could potentially cure or kill -- is what the issue is here.

    Is the blogger qualified to teach someone "a cure", or is he just as likely to be teaching someone "something that could kill them"?

    The issue is not that he is a blogger.

    The issue is that he does not have the legal right to be dispensing medical advice to anyone, let alone those who are desperate for a cure.

    This is a public health issue, as far as the government is concerned.

    And the government only wants people who are licensed (proven competent by a state examination) to practice medicine to be dispersing medical advice.

    If the blogger is not licensed to practice medicine, most people (who are not beaurocrats) would suggest that he is likely a "quack", more so when his advice kills someone.

    If his advice kills someone, then he becomes libel for that unnecessary death.

    I believe that threatening jail time to someone who could potentially be putting people's lives at risk, by asserting his "free speech rights", is the least the government could do to stop this behavior.

    It is certainly better to stop him before he kills someone, than to wait until he has killed someone to do something about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jaspry
    I run a health-product related blog and have done extensive research and have personal experience with the product. I am well aware of the possibilities of actions if my claims go too far, which is why I have a disclaimer that says "This product does NOT cure/prevent any disease, nor does it have significant scientific backing..." etc and "All health benefits received from this product are anecdotal and experienced by people who use this product". Also a lot of "consult your doctor if..." phraseology around as well... would you consider this a reasonable measure in my content or do I have to ramp up the cautions any more?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Jaspry View Post

      I run a health-product related blog and have done extensive research and have personal experience with the product. I am well aware of the possibilities of actions if my claims go too far, which is why I have a disclaimer that says "This product does NOT cure/prevent any disease, nor does it have significant scientific backing..." etc and "All health benefits received from this product are anecdotal and experienced by people who use this product". Also a lot of "consult your doctor if..." phraseology around as well... would you consider this a reasonable measure in my content or do I have to ramp up the cautions any more?

      I would suspect that you are probably safe with that kind of language, but you should absolutely seek clarification from a licensed attorney.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jaspry
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        I would suspect that you are probably safe with that kind of language, but you should absolutely seek clarification from a licensed attorney.
        Very good advice. I'll remove a lot of the health benefit verbage regarding "What benefits other users have experienced..." section until I get further advice on this topic.

        It's not medication or anything, it's actually just a high-searched health food with very little online information about - nothing significant, but I'll proceed with content as if it were a controversial health product because there's so many people out there looking for the next best thing to lose weight and get healthier with little to no work (kind of like the make money online community!). While I could take advantage of that energy, I'd rather educate people to BE SMART and improve the overall well being of their lives rather than just consuming a product!
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Jaspry View Post

      would you consider this a reasonable measure in my content or do I have to ramp up the cautions any more?
      We're not qualified to advise you about that (but it sounds to me like you're saying all the right sorts of things and my layperson's guess would be that it might look that way to regulatory agencies, too).
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    • Profile picture of the author fin
      Even in the UK, even personal trainers aren't allowed to give their clients nutritional advice. They do, but that's another story.

      It has to be a qualified dietician/nutritionist.

      So what makes bloggers think it would be OK is beyond me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Originally Posted by Jaspry View Post

      I run a health-product related blog and have done extensive research and have personal experience with the product. I am well aware of the possibilities of actions if my claims go too far, which is why I have a disclaimer that says "This product does NOT cure/prevent any disease, nor does it have significant scientific backing..." etc and "All health benefits received from this product are anecdotal and experienced by people who use this product". Also a lot of "consult your doctor if..." phraseology around as well... would you consider this a reasonable measure in my content or do I have to ramp up the cautions any more?
      I'm not an attorney, so please don't take this as legal advice, but you might also consider stating something to the effect that you do not have any formal medical or healthcare-related training, are not a licensed medical professional, and that the information you provide is based solely on your own personal experience and research.

      Also, avoid indicating that your information / advice / product can "CURE" anything.

      To be completely on the safe side, consult with an attorney to make sure everything in your disclaimer is worded properly and that nothing is missing that should be there.
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  • Profile picture of the author knish
    Holy cr@p. That's heavy duty! We should all collect a donation to bail the person out of jail if that person is not out already. However, in the case of that state (Carolina) it sounds like a local but not national law. This issue should be taken to the Supreme Court.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by knish View Post

      Holy cr@p. That's heavy duty! We should all collect a donation to bail the person out of jail if that person is not out already. However, in the case of that state (Carolina) it sounds like a local but not national law. This issue should be taken to the Supreme Court.

      It is a State law, not a city or county.

      And the Federal government supports the position of the State.
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  • Profile picture of the author jr1228
    There's another article about this that is more informative: State Threatens to Shut Down Nutrition Blogger He went into a meeting that had a registered dietician in attendance, told people the advice they were receiving in this meeting was wrong, and gave people his card. He obviously p*ssed off someone who reported him.

    His site doesn't say "cure" anywhere on it, unless he has taken that wording down since. I am struggling with how his site is that much different than, say, Mark's Daily Apple, which is a popular diet/health blog. See this post: Gout and Eating a Primal Blueprint or Paleo Diet | Mark's Daily Apple

    He is giving suggestions on how to reduce their risk for gout and high uric acid. Isn't that technically medical advice as well? I think this guy is being made an example of even though many others are doing similar things.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jr1228 View Post

      Isn't that technically medical advice as well?
      It doesn't matter: he wasn't in trouble for "giving medical advice" - he was in trouble for giving nutritional advice without a licence, in a state in which that's illegal.
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      • Profile picture of the author fin
        By the way, this counts for fitness advice as well, for anyone who is telling people to do exercises.

        I'd imagine it would depend on the wording, but you can't tell someone to do something to get bigger muscles, for example.

        That's why trainers spend money to be insured for millions per year.

        In theory, if you tell someone to do bench press and they get squashed, they could sue you for broken ribs and you are eligible for damages.

        I'd be very careful with fitness/nutrition/medical advice.
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        • Profile picture of the author Palusko
          I really hope you're wrong.

          Originally Posted by fin View Post

          By the way, this counts for fitness advice as well, for anyone who is telling people to do exercises.

          I'd imagine it would depend on the wording, but you can't tell someone to do something to get bigger muscles, for example.

          That's why trainers spend money to be insured for millions per year.

          In theory, if you tell someone to do bench press and they get squashed, they could sue you for broken ribs and you are eligible for damages.

          I'd be very careful with fitness/nutrition/medical advice.
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          • Profile picture of the author fin
            Originally Posted by Palusko View Post

            I really hope you're wrong.
            Well it's what they teach on PT courses, saying that, they aren't lawyers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
          Originally Posted by fin View Post

          By the way, this counts for fitness advice as well, for anyone who is telling people to do exercises.

          I'd imagine it would depend on the wording, but you can't tell someone to do something to get bigger muscles, for example.

          That's why trainers spend money to be insured for millions per year.

          In theory, if you tell someone to do bench press and they get squashed, they could sue you for broken ribs and you are eligible for damages.

          I'd be very careful with fitness/nutrition/medical advice.
          This is true now and it has always been, as far as I know.

          At least, from what I can remember during my teens, insurance was required (not necessarily taken by all) even in the early 1980s.
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      • Profile picture of the author jr1228
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        It doesn't matter: he wasn't in trouble for "giving medical advice" - he was in trouble for giving nutritional advice without a licence, in a state in which that's illegal.
        Sorry! Meant to type nutritional advice. I think the info on Mark's Daily Apple is nutritional advice too.
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    • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
      Originally Posted by jr1228 View Post

      He is giving suggestions on how to reduce their risk for gout and high uric acid. Isn't that technically medical advice as well? I think this guy is being made an example of even though many others are doing similar things.
      If you going to make claims like they are making, then there had better be some science to back it up. In this case there is NO science to back it up.
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  • Profile picture of the author jr1228
    Actually... here's an update. The case is now closed, and his site is now in full compliance:

    North Carolina Board of Dietetics/Nutrition | File a Complaint
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  • Profile picture of the author jr1228
    One more comment on this. I think the way Timothy Ferriss did "The Four Hour Body" was great -- his book is full of nutritional and fitness advice, but it is all worded in a "I did this/my friend did this" way. If people choose to follow it then that's up to him, but he's just sharing his experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    This thread cures boredom.

    (Too bad it doesn't cure sensationalist news reporting and misunderstanding the issues.)
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    • Profile picture of the author Jaspry
      Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

      This thread cures boredom.
      I tried the boredom cure | boredom relief | unentertainment alleviation method you outlined at my workplace, and my boss came in and found me not working! I'm charging you for the loss of pay!

      Just kidding Some people take things too far though, and there's always going to be horror stories out there.
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      • Profile picture of the author sandalwood
        Here's some medical advice:

        Don't step in front of a speeding semi truck. It'll kill you.

        That is medcial advice isn't it?

        Thank you.

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        • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
          Originally Posted by sandalwood View Post

          Here's some medical advice:

          Don't step in front of a speeding semi truck. It'll kill you.

          That is medcial advice isn't it?

          Thank you.

          Tom
          Do you have a randomized controlled clinical trial to support your claim?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tadresources
    I was going to call shenanigans because this seemed too over-hyped to be true,, but it is!

    Health Blogger Could Be Jailed for Giving Health Advice While Unlicensed - Megan Garber - Technology - The Atlantic
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The stories don't add up.

      He says he just finished 32 days of the diet - the link above says he lost 45 lbs. Amazing how the stories grow when to goal is to prove a point.

      Either he was a real tanker to start with or, if normal sized, he lost 25% of his weight in 30 days. Not believable - even on the Biggest Loser.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brian John
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    • I'd never heard of this guy Cooksey and don't care, but in poking around randomly I found a page on his site where he claims a friend of his (a certified diabetes educator) has all the answers for ASTHMA.

      And that he (Cooksey) treated his asthma with x, y and z and hasn't had any recurrence in 26 months! (Exclamation mark his.)

      I sometimes go for years without asthma symptoms. It's a chronic disease. Being asymptomatic doesn't mean you've cured it, however much you want to believe that.

      Talking factually about his experience is fine but IMO, people like this Cooksey should also be required to state that every person is different, reacts differently to foods, medications, etc. and that his experience is not typical.

      Cooksey is a zealot, convinced he has all the answers.

      fLufF
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  • Let me tell you this. I almost lost my sight maybe even my life and the internet saved my life. This is how I learned how bad things are in the food. In any case I learned about 99% from blogs. In any case I lost 90 pounds and am healthy now and no working out at all and just eating deferent. Everything the establishment told me turned out to be bad for me, everything I learned on the internet on my own turned out true. I can see why that needs to be banned, can you imagine if everyone got healthy like me? Trillions would be lost? Just my 2 cents. I hope anyone can say anything online I support the first amendment and hope it doesn't die.
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    • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
      Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

      I hope anyone can say anything online I support the first amendment and hope it doesn't die.
      ...someone needs to go back to school for a civics lesson about the first amendment
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by HelpingYouBeAnExpert View Post

      Let me tell you this. I almost lost my sight maybe even my life and the internet saved my life. This is how I learned how bad things are in the food. In any case I learned about 99% from blogs. In any case I lost 90 pounds and am healthy now and no working out at all and just eating deferent. Everything the establishment told me turned out to be bad for me, everything I learned on the internet on my own turned out true. I can see why that needs to be banned, can you imagine if everyone got healthy like me? Trillions would be lost? Just my 2 cents. I hope anyone can say anything online I support the first amendment and hope it doesn't die.
      Who says that your results would be the norm though? You got lucky, really. Personally, if I have two people giving advice to me: one with 4 years in college, 4 in med school, and however long as a certified whatever and a random blogger who "found the cure", I'm placing my money on the guy that was trained to give the advice.
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  • That is really insane, and I cannot comprehend who can close a blog or jail a person just for a review. Every day we are bombarded with similar advertising at every hour of the day on tv, radio, website and newspapers.

    If this becomes true, we will have to close all our healthy blogs. And generally that is caused by misleading information, like in this case.
    Incredible...
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by TheBlogger View Post

    Is it legal to give brief nutritional advice, for e.g. "you should get at least x amount of protein in each day", "you should get x much of x vitamin each day".

    Is that legal? Is it only illegal when you offer nutritional advice that is specific to a certain health-condition, or if you provide specific meal plans etc?
    We're not qualified to answer such questions, being marketers rather than lawyers, but between you and me it varies from country to country and from state to state and according to the context in which the "advice" is given. When it's part of "selling something", it tends to be interpreted in as heavy-handed and negative a way as possible by regulators and legal authorities. In some countries.
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    • Every day we are bombarded with similar advertising at every hour of the day on tv, radio, website and newspapers.

      Perhaps in Italy you are. Not here.

      There are laws in the U.S. about the kinds of claims you can make. I think those laws serve a valid purpose, especially in the Internet age. It can be terribly difficult to distinguish quackery from zealotry from well-meant misinformation from truth.

      Who knows how many people worry needlessly because they tried to diagnose their condition on the Internet? It's become a major problem.

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  • Profile picture of the author Vendor-Lock
    This is why I don't deal with the " diet " niche anymore.
    This is only one story out of hundreds.

    I don't believe people that are not qualified should be giving any medical advice.

    I think there is a marketing lesson here.

    What he could have and should have done is say :
    " this worked for ME , and if you want to try it, you should consult your doctor first "

    But Jail time is a little harsh.... They could just shut his site down,
    but instead they are using people like him as a public show-piece,
    so that others will think twice about doing something similar.

    Everyone will have a different opinion on this subject I'm sure !

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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    Originally Posted by TheBlogger View Post

    Is it legal to give brief nutritional advice, for e.g. "you should get at least x amount of protein in each day", "you should get x much of x vitamin each day".

    Is that legal? Is it only illegal when you offer nutritional advice that is specific to a certain health-condition, or if you provide specific meal plans etc?
    That's illegal. Just say someone has a liver problem and you're telling him too eat to much protein, you never know. Same with vitamins.

    You need to be general.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    Wow, some hot heads here, but in reality, what is the argument all about, is it about a man who posts about information online, (hello freedom of speech) or is it about a local small business that was being impacted by this mans blog? who knows for sure unless you live there, but wait.

    There is a big news story here.

    (NaturalNews) Internet free speech is under assault in America, and a dangerous new trend has surfaced that threatens to throw nutritional bloggers in jail for advocating healthy diets on their blogs or websites. As you read this, a blogger who wrote about using the Paleo diet to overcome diabetes is being threatened with jail time in North Carolina, where the state Board of Dietetics / Nutrition claims his nutritional advocacy is equivalent to the crime of "practicing nutrition without a license."
    Get this, I have actually met one of these reprobates, called dieticians, they have no scientifically valid data to support their positions in diet.

    Dieticians - the lowest sub-class of nutritional grunts

    Dieticians, for the record, are the sub-class of processed food grunts who regurgitate government-approved nutritional DIS-information and design school lunch programs, prison food programs and hospital food programs. These are, for the record, the three worst places to get food, as nearly all the food served in these locations will leave you even more diseased than ever.

    Lets look for a moment at the real complaint here.

    Is the complaint that any website is not entitled to advocate a diet without a license? You know if you start to try to remove the freedom to speak on grounds that they might be wrong about a diet, or even about how to remove a tire that has gone flat, then where does it stop.

    really, you cant tell someone how to change out a spark plug in a car because they might injure themselves.

    But really, if you think that this cheap pseudo fake diet people have any real power, think again.

    "Dieticians" are widely discredited in the world of real nutrition, and the dietician community has yet to even acknowledge any qualitative difference between DEAD foods and LIVING foods. Dieticians are all about counting calories, and they couldn't care less where they come from. These are the morons who actually tell cancer patients to drink Ensure! (Yeah, seriously...)
    Now, you can say, we dont have the right to free speech, but that would make you something you probably dont want to be unless you are a socialist, in that case your probably already living in a tin foil hat world anyway.







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    • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

      (hello freedom of speech)
      You too need a civics lesson on the basics and principles of "freedom of speech" which you seriously misunderstand.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
        Teach me oh great one, how I have offended thee in the world of freedom of speech let us now have such discourse as might be fit for the human mind, doth thou doubt thy ability to do said analysis?

        You know what thats all I need to make my point, its clear there is no ambiguity, there is no doubt, when you use those few words

        Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
        Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

        You too need a civics lesson on the basics and principles of "freedom of speech" which you seriously misunderstand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dietriffic
    I haven't studied this out, but as a Registered Dietitian in the UK who writes on my own fairly popular blog, I find this fascinating.

    I'm not sure what to think, to be honest.

    There's no doubt I get frustrated by wild claims.

    But, I get equally frustrated when official advice is proposed based on studies funded by those who have a vested interest in the outcome, which in many cases is clearly manipulated.

    There are crooks on both sides, claiming things that are either wrong, or unsubstantiated.

    For what it's worth, I examine things from all sides and am cautious with my advice. Read everything, listen to everyone, but be careful what you believe.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by Dietriffic View Post

      I haven't studied this out, but as a Registered Dietitian in the UK who writes on my own fairly popular blog, I find this fascinating.

      I'm not sure what to think, to be honest.

      There's no doubt I get frustrated by wild claims.

      But, I get equally frustrated when official advice is proposed based on studies funded by those who have a vested interest in the outcome, which in many cases is clearly manipulated.

      There are crooks on both sides, claiming things that are either wrong, or unsubstantiated.

      For what it's worth, I examine things from all sides and am cautious with my advice. Read everything, listen to everyone, but be careful what you believe.
      Tell me about it. Money talks.

      Remember the claims about needing 3 pints of water a day (HAD to be water; no other drink)?

      That certainly built a huge industry selling... water.

      How about aspartame?

      That's poison, but it was passed by the FDA in the USA by Donald Rumsfeld after 16 years of being turned down.

      Money talks.

      And how about flouride?

      That's supposed to be good for teeth?

      Pull the other one... and the other... and the other.

      Flouride is used in rat poison and is a by-product of iron-ore manufacture.

      The companies paid (bribed) politicians in the 1920s(?) to pass a law saying it's good for teeth so they could put it in toothpaste instead of spending millions getting rid of it.

      Oh, yes... money definitely talks.

      Except if you're the little guy.

      Then you have to obey the law to the letter.

      And rightly so.
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  • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
    duh? Did you even read what you posted?

    The whole principle enshrined in the first amendment is protection of freedom of speech from criticizing the government! There is nothing in the amendment to protect bloggers from making any claims, unless it criticizing the government .... in other words it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author bummed.out
    As someone who prefers the health niche, I'm quite disappointed by the actions being proposed or taken against this individual. As if conventional medical advice from "authorities" hasn't caused people harm?

    I think the man should be free to write what he wants. Yes, maybe he should word it more carefully. Or include a disclaimer. But to threaten him with arrest for writing about and advocating certain things contrary to "official" opinion (BTW, the "paleo diet" has also received some popular press in the mainstream media) is a pathetic, lowlife move.
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  • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
    If you make health or medical claims for a product, you had better have scientific evidence to back it up. Its that simple.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

      If you make health or medical claims for a product, you had better have scientific evidence to back it up. Its that simple.
      No ... it just isn't that simple, at all. This is, in fact, quite wrong.

      "Having scientific evidence to back it up" doesn't legitimize health or medical claims if you don't have the qualifications, licensing and legal right to make them, and this is the point.

      As is the case in other areas of advertising/promotional law and regulations, being 100% right about something doesn't necessarily make it legal to state it.
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  • Would you get surgery from the milk man? No. Then why would you ever think it's ok to post up "cures" for medical issues you're not qualified to give in the first place? There's a difference in telling your story but when you cross the line into giving advice like an expert that's a completely different thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    It would appear that @cbpain you have a somewhat limited interpretation of what words mean in English that is, but here are a few great legal minds that perhaps might help you understand that the word OR for example indicates a position or conjunction of events, not an ending, so the idea that freedom of speech only pertains to critizing the government is not only lubricious, but simply and completely untrue.

    Congress is also prohibited from passing laws "abridging the freedom of speech." What free speech means, exactly, has varied from era to era. It is noteworthy that within ten years of the Bill of Rights' ratification, President John Adams successfully passed an act specifically written to restrict the free speech of supporters of Adams' political opponent, Thomas Jefferson.
    During the 18th century, pamphleteers such as Thomas Paine were subject to persecution for publishing unpopular opinions. The freedom of press clause makes it clear that the First Amendment is meant to protect not only freedom to speak, but also freedom to publish and distribute speech.



    In Lovell v. City of Griffin, 303 U.S. 444 (1938), Chief Justice Hughes defined the press as, "every sort of publication which affords a vehicle of information and opinion."[86] Freedom of the press, like freedom of speech, is subject to restrictions on bases such as defamation law.
    Content regulation
    The courts have rarely treated content-based regulation of journalism with any sympathy. In Miami Herald Publishing Co. v. Tornillo, 418 U.S. 241 (1974), the Court unanimously struck down a state law requiring newspapers criticizing political candidates to publish their responses. The state claimed that the law had been passed to ensure journalistic responsibility. The Supreme Court found that freedom, but not responsibility, is mandated by the First Amendment and so it ruled that the government may not force newspapers to publish that which they do not desire to publish.
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  • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
    Nope. Still nothing in what you are posting about that relates to this issue of this thread on "freedom of speech"
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
      Ok, have a good day, I think I have made my point, the supreme court also agrees, but if your unable to understand case law I think there is no sense in really talking any further as it is appears that your using your opinion as your weapon the law is not your opinion.

      the law is clear, opinion never is.

      Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

      Nope. Still nothing in what you are posting about that relates to this issue of this thread on "freedom of speech"
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      • Profile picture of the author cbpayne
        Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

        Ok, have a good day, I think I have made my point, the supreme court also agrees, but if your unable to understand case law I think there is no sense in really talking any further as it is appears that your using your opinion as your weapon the law is not your opinion.

        the law is clear, opinion never is.
        So if you are right, then why can the FDA litigate against those who give unsupported medical advise? Why are they not protected by 'freedom of speech'?
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        • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
          Look were not talking about medical advice here, I think you just like to argue, some people like to do that they play semantics, I noticed that about you right away, out of everything in my first statement you choose the one thing that you wanted to try to argue about even though most of what I posted was very nominal and not controversial, you reveal yourself as a person of a certain ideological perspective, my point which I believe you understand is that health information such as diets, cooking, and the like are protected speech, which is why the original complaining party withdrew their complaints, they had no legal standing.

          The AG for the state of North Carolina declined to pursue this case so that also should tell you something, all in all, I think that you just want someone to argue with, I have made my point, game set match...


          Originally Posted by cbpayne View Post

          So if you are right, then why can the FDA litigate against those who give unsupported medical advise? Why are they not protected by 'freedom of speech'?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
    So the massive corporations with billions to spend on TV advertising can:

    - peddle FDA approved drugs (which are often highly toxic, just listen to the likely side effects listed at the end of nearly every pharmaceutical commercial)

    - manufacture food, if you can call it that, which clearly has little or no nutritional value (how much chocolate milk gets consumed in schools?)

    - sell fast food laden with sugar, fat, HFCS and all manner of unpleasant nasty substances

    Whilst a blogger encouraging his few readers (certainly a tiny group compared to TV audiences) to eat naturally grow foods and to nourish themselves fully gets threatened with prison because he might encourage people to do something that might be injurious?

    Err, sorry... the hypocrisy just makes me gag. Your country is facing an obesity pandemic with 40% of the population expected to become morbidly obese within the next few years. The medical implications are staggering. The current generation of teenagers is the first generation in US history that is expected to have a lower life expectancy than their parents.

    When are you going to stop allowing these corporations and vested interests having control over your food supply, wake up and realise that they only thing they are interested in is making vast sums of money and do something about it as a nation?

    The whole thing resembles The Matrix - where the people who are still plugged into the Matrix are dependent on it and will fight tooth and claw to defend it - and you are being lied to constantly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brian John
      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

      Look were not talking about medical advice here... my point which I believe you understand is that health information such as diets, cooking, and the like are protected speech, which is why the original complaining party withdrew their complaints, they had no legal standing.
      The AG for the state of North Carolina declined to pursue this case so that also should tell you something...
      bingo! this guy probably pissed off someone, someone who likely had spent extensive time and money to satisfy some nonsensical bureaucracy to become certified/licensed by the north carolina board of dietetics/nutrition (lol...there's an organization/federation/board for just about everything these days) only to see that someone else is selling a more effective product/protocol and making far more money doing it...probably a little disheartening to say the least. he then complains to the organization that is designed to protect his livelihood, the organization he pays his membership dues to. (that's how such organizations function, primarily to protect their member's interests, not the public's, and definitely not someone competing against them.) so, the board took the complaint and made a threat, the proprietor of the site made a few minor changes, and they dropped it. being that i sell healthcare info products i find this very interesting and will dig deeper into it when i have the time. my guess, had the issue really been pressed, the board probably didn't have a solid case in the first place.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    If "freedom of speech" protections don't extend to yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater, why should it apply to a blogger distilling medical advice on the Internet?

    The first is prohibited because it may cause unnecessary harm to innocent people...

    The second should be permitted... Why?
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      If "freedom of speech" protections don't extend to yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater, why should it apply to a blogger distilling medical advice on the Internet?

      The first is prohibited because it may cause unnecessary harm to innocent people...

      The second should be permitted... Why?
      B-but first amendment rights...sheeple...SOPA. Well damn. Common sense wins again.
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      • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
        Anecdotal evidence really doesn't matter here

        Freedom of Speech really doesn't matter here

        It doesn't even matter whether or not his diet cures every diabetes patient who tries it.

        What matters is that the North Carolina legislature determined that it is against state law to give medical advice without possessing what they consider to be credentials in the medical field. Unless that law is changed or repealed, anyone giving medical advice in NC without whatever NC determines are proper medical credentials will be subject to prosecution.

        So are we arguing about whether or not NC's law is a just law? Or are we arguing about whether it's a valid law (constitutionally)?

        I disagree with the previous quote that Freedom of Speech extends to publication (also to art, or burning a flag, for that matter - my own <rant> :rolleyes - if Freedom of Speech was meant to cover print media, why did the constitutional framers also enumerate "Freedom of the Press"?

        "Speech", at the time of the constitution's writing, referred to opening one's mouth and issuing words from it. That's why they felt they had to also mention "Freedom of the Press", and "Freedom of Assembly". To them, actions did not equate to speech. Therefore "Freedom of Speech" doesn't really cover the multitude of actions that people nowadays try to use it for.

        Speech is speech. The speaking of words. Just because people nowadays want to re-define the word "speech", it shouldn't change the original spirit of the law, written by people who knew that speech is speech.

        The State of North Carolina intended to stop this blogger from giving advice that could harm those who take that advice without proper guidance from someone familiar with their particular health concerns - the type of advice that should never be given out without very explicit disclaimers advising readers to consult their own physician before starting any diet or treatment. They may well have saved him from a lawsuit down the road - even if his advice never harmed anyone. All it takes is a person with an existing condition (like those reading his blog) - if they can even prove that your advice could have had an effect on their condition, you're toast.

        Who will decide if your advice is potentially harmful? The state or country with jurisdiction over you, with the guidance (in US) of the FDA, who is historically hostile towards homeopathic and natural medicine.

        You can hate the FDA, you can hate states like NC, you can even hate the entire medical establishment. But right or wrong, anyone in the health niche is subject to scrutiny by people who's best interest is not served by people outside of the medical field offering alternate solutions to people's health problems. That could suck sometimes, but it can also protect lives. Not all of us need laws to make us ethical, but some do, and the just must live under the same laws as the unjust...

        PS: I hope I didn't get too political here - slap me down if I did (I love the abuse :p)
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  • Profile picture of the author Dietriffic
    There's a prevailing influence today which seems to cry out that university education is a waste of time.

    Many smart people don't go to university and do well for themselves, so why bother?

    But, there's also a sub-class of people who don't go to university, but think they know better than those who do, just because they've read a few books.

    I've met people who have this attitude.

    They have a particular persuasion about nutrition and I can see in them that they think they know better than me.

    But, none of these people have carried out their own studies.

    They haven't even analysed other people's studies for themselves.

    Instead, they've read a book that has supposedly analysed the studies, and they simply adopt the authors conclusions.

    Or worse, they've used Google, and simply adopt the non-peer reviewed conclusions of some self-appointed 'expert'.

    However, sometimes the 'conclusions' are simply not telling the whole truth. They're being interpreted to support their own bias.

    95% have an agenda. They're not open to what opposes their own ideology.

    The truth is, while university education may not be perfect, it usually helps people to study information better. It equips people (certainly in any field of science) to analyse data, digest information, and even to know where to look to get the answers (if they're available).

    The people who know better than me?

    They know how to use Google. That's about it.

    The truth is, no one has all the answers.

    It's why I try to stay on top of official, and independent information.

    I analyse it all. I interpret it myself.

    Some good points have been made in this thread. I appreciate the input many have given. It's been beneficial.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Personally, I'm glad that freedom of speech does not include the ability to give out medical advice with a license. Remember the rash of Flogs on every topic ranging from diet/weight loss to colon cleanse to **** berries? Many have been shut down with good reason. Fake claims, fake endorsements, fake everything.

    Then there's con men like "Dr. Jarvik" who invented an artificial heart that doesn't work and promoted Lipitor and represented himself as a real doctor.
    Dr. Jarvik – Lipitor Pusher – Fired AGAIN | ThePeoplesChemist.com

    Let us not forget Smiling Bob with his bogus penis enhancement remedies
    'Natural Male Enhancement' Company Owner Indicted on Fraud, Other Charges | Fox News

    There's people like John R. Brinkley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, touted transplanting goat glands into humans to cure impotence, lost his medical license (he actually had one) but died penniless after amassing a huge fortune, as a result of the large number of malpractice, wrongful death and fraud suits brought against him.

    Giving out medical advice with a license wasn't a good business plan for Perry Belcher
    http://mikeyounglaw.com/internet-law...elcher-arrest/

    If the law doesn't protect the public from make believe medical advice given out by charlatans with a profit motive, what will? Criminal activity is not protected by the First Amendment.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rick Britton
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Personally, I'm glad that freedom of speech does not include the ability to give out medical advice with a license. Remember the rash of Flogs on every topic ranging from diet/weight loss to colon cleanse to **** berries? Many have been shut down with good reason. Fake claims, fake endorsements, fake everything.

      Then there's con men like "Dr. Jarvik" who invented an artificial heart that doesn't work and promoted Lipitor and represented himself as a real doctor.
      Dr. Jarvik - Lipitor Pusher - Fired AGAIN | ThePeoplesChemist.com

      Let us not forget Smiling Bob with his bogus penis enhancement remedies
      'Natural Male Enhancement' Company Owner Indicted on Fraud, Other Charges | Fox News

      There's people like John R. Brinkley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, touted transplanting goat glands into humans to cure impotence, lost his medical license (he actually had one) but died penniless after amassing a huge fortune, as a result of the large number of malpractice, wrongful death and fraud suits brought against him.

      Giving out medical advice with a license wasn't a good business plan for Perry Belcher
      http://mikeyounglaw.com/internet-law...elcher-arrest/

      If the law doesn't protect the public from make believe medical advice given out by charlatans with a profit motive, what will? Criminal activity is not protected by the First Amendment.
      this has got nothing to do with advising people to eat natural, whole foods produced by organic means
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Rick Britton View Post

        this has got nothing to do with advising people to eat natural, whole foods produced by organic means
        If he tells people that it can cure diabetes, it certainly does. He can relay his own experience according to NC law, but cannot advise others to adopt his plan without a license. The problem is that each person is different and he could give people advice that could kill them.

        Chapter 90, Article 25 of the North Carolina General Statutes makes it a misdemeanor to “practice dietetics or nutrition” without a license. According to the law, “practicing” nutrition includes “assessing the nutritional needs of individuals and groups” and “providing nutrition counseling.”

        ...... The board’s director says Cooksey has a First Amendment right to blog about his diet, but he can’t encourage others to adopt it unless the state has certified him as a dietitian or nutritionist.
        It appears that he was offering diabetes/nutritional consulting for a fee without a license as well.

        Cooksey posted a link (6.3 MB PDF download) to the board’s review of his website. The document shows several Web pages the board took issue with, including a question-and-answer page, which the director had marked in red ink noting the places he was “assessing and counseling” readers of his blog.

        “If people are writing you with diabetic specific questions and you are responding, you are no longer just providing information — you are counseling,” she wrote. “You need a license to provide this service."

        The board also found fault with a page titled “My Meal Plan,” where Cooksey details what he eats daily.

        In red, Burril writes, “It is acceptable to provide just this information [his meal plan], but when you start recommending it directly to people you speak to or who write you, you are now providing diabetic counseling, which requires a license.”

        The board also directed Cooksey to remove a link offering one-on-one support, a personal-training type of service he offered for a small fee.

        Cooksey posts the following disclaimer at the bottom of every page on his website:

        “I am not a doctor, dietitian, nor nutritionist … in fact I have no medical training of any kind.”

        In fact, he brags about his lack of formal training throughout his blog.

        “It’s so simple,” he told CJ. “I cut carbs, I reduced my drugs and insulin until I didn’t need them at all. If I can figure that out, why in the hell can’t all these other people [in the medical field]?”
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