I've heard e-mail marketing IS dying ...What do I do about it? and How to use "list conversion"

43 replies
Look at your numbers compared to the last few years.

A simple question: Have your open rates and click through rates risen or fallen?

My guess is that most of you have seen a MASSIVE decline.

Now, maybe some of you are sitting in your underwear at home just watching this happen and simply ignoring it.

"Maybe it'll turn around," you think optimistically to yourself.

The COLD, REALITY is that it's a losing battle. It IS dying.

"So what can I do?" You may ask...

My following answer may NOT be right for you. Evaluate your business and your goals and adjust accordingly.

I really believe that for the majority of you, the following suggestions will help solve your dwindling open rates and click-through rates.

In a nut-shell, here are my suggestions:

1. You NEED to write good headlines. Now, most of you "think" you write good headlines, and I could write a whole product on headlines, but the headlines that convert the best for me are ones that are written as a result of me "knowing" the desires of my list.

"What are the questions that the people on your list are asking themselves?" If you write these as headlines, they WILL open them.

You also want to use headlines that DELIVER on the promise, not "deceive" your list into opening your e-mail, only to be disappointed once it's opened.

So writing "You just got a sale" is a LIST KILLER. DON'T DO IT.

An example of a winning headline could be in question form, then in the e-mail, answer the question.

An example of a winning headline for your e-mails could be: "How do I get more sales this month?" or "How do I get more subscribers?"

2. My fiance' works at a large company and they contact their prospects via, phone, mail and e-mail. The BEST way is to NEVER put all of your eggs in one basket.

This is a way to diversify your contacts, so if you're e-mail list's delivery starts to hurt enough that your business can't survive, you've already started contacting your list in other ways.

YOUR EGGS ARE NOT ALL IN ONE BASKET.

MAIL IS "COOL AGAIN." Who doesn't LOVE getting a package from their mentor? I'd LOVE a package sent to me from ryan deiss, frank kern, sean mize, etc.

Create a physical e-book or cd you can send your list for FREE in exchange for their address. Then deliver a printed form of that e-book. People like Brendan Burchard are doing this for a reason. They charge you "shipping" so they can recoup some of the costs of converting your e-mail list into an off-line list.

I KNOW from experience that if you can handle the up-front cost, it will pay you back handsomely.

The benefits, such as the instant credibility you gain by doing this far out-weigh the up-front costs.

What I've found is that once someone gets a "physical" product from you in the mail and you've really delievered, they are MUCH more likely to pay you more money for a high ticket item, because you have proven yourself to be someone who delivers.

MAKE SURE that you deliver the item quickly.

3. Have your list join your "secret" Facebook group and give valuable content that is exclusive to this group, "meaning, they NEED to join your Facebook group to get this content."

You can promote this to your e-mail list. This is yet ANOTHER way to diversify your list and if your prospects are exposed to you in more than one way, such as mail, e-mail, Facebook, twitter, etc. They look at you differently, especially if you are always giving them cool free stuff with an opportunity to give you money at the end if they want even more from you.

While you may not be able to "fix" e-mail marketing, it IS DYING, you CAN diversify your leads so that you are not dependent on only one source of communication. And diversifying your lists will give you a greater presence in the mind's of your prospects proportionately to the value you give them.

Derek J. Soto
#converted #dying #email #heard #list #marketing #time
  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by Derek Soto View Post


    While you may not be able to "fix" e-mail marketing, it IS DYING, you CAN diversify your leads so that you are not dependent on only one source of communication.
    So it's email marketing that's "dying" this week?

    I think you'll also find that whether that applies or not relates to how you do your email marketing. I've found the opposite. My open rates are as good as ever and unsubs as low as ever. Mind you I very rarely try and sell my list anything and when I make an offer it always has some sort of special benefit and is not just a recommendation for someone else's stuff in order to make a commission.

    Many people destroy their email lists by over marketing - that's what kills them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      So it's email marketing that's "dying" this week?

      I think you'll also find that whether that applies or not relates to how you do your email marketing. I've found the opposite. My open rates are as good as ever and unsubs as low as ever. Mind you I very rarely try and sell my list anything and when I make an offer it always has some sort of special benefit and is not just a recommendation for someone else's stuff in order to make a commission.

      Many people destroy their email lists by over marketing - that's what kills them.
      You my friend, "get it." You don't burn your list and you have a great relationship with them!

      I wanted to share my ideas with people on diversifying their lists and converting their lists because while I too have a nice open rate and click-through rate, it's still not satisfactory to me.

      I've noticed a better overall response rate when people are contacted in different ways and where some people respond better to e-mail, there are a number of people on my lists that respond better to physical pieces and others a phone call.
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    • Profile picture of the author Exel
      Hmm, this is awful strange.

      I thought that email marketing had died in 2002., I read it in a thread on the forum back then...
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Exel View Post

        Hmm, this is awful strange.

        I thought that email marketing had died in 2002., I read it in a thread on the forum back then...
        The answer is simple. Internet marketing (and everything that falls under that broad term) is under the "Kenny Effect"



        You can keep killing it off every week; but it'll always be back the next time you tune in.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Actually the best thing that has happened for email marketers in the last five years has been the surge in smartphone usage. This has led email to be the number-one activity among internet-capable consumers. Perhaps a strategic rethink in creative changes for email promotions are in order to fully capitalize on this trend which is now approaching near ubiquity, as 76 percent of smartphone users (in the United States) read email on their phones.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Agreed - different strokes for different folks. No reason not to meet people where they want to be met (in person, email, phone etc.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Cohen
    People said the world was ending in 2012. People said Y2K was going to happen. People say email marketing is dying.

    What do these 3 things have in common?
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Agreed - different strokes for different folks. No reason not to meet people where they want to be met (in person, email, phone etc.)
      Yes sir! Most people rely only on e-mail and don't want to see that "what is accepted as a good open rate for most people" is not really that good compared to other methods like text right now where over 90% open rate is standard.

      Originally Posted by Ross Cohen View Post

      People said the world was ending in 2012. People said Y2K was going to happen. People say email marketing is dying.

      What do these 3 things have in common?
      Ross, when I have kids, I'm going to show them the movie "2012" with John Cusack and say, "I survived that."

      The real point I was driving at with my thread was e-mail marketing IS dying, ISP's are becoming more and more unreliable and I've noticed my open rates have gone down over-all as more and more people have spam flooding their in-box. So the major point is I think it's wise to diversify your lists and convert them over to other mediums such as mail pieces and requested phone calls, this way you are not relying on only one very shaky platform.

      Listen, if you are getting massive open rates and killing it with e-mail marketing, that's RARE and GREAT! However, there are a number of people who have also seen a decline in their e-mail efforts, even people like Joe Lavery who is a good marketer and who has still seen a decline.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Derek Soto View Post

        The real point I was driving at with my thread was e-mail marketing IS dying, ISP's are becoming more and more unreliable and I've noticed my open rates have gone down over-all as more and more people have spam flooding their in-box.
        From Stupid Forum Tricks (with emphasis on the important part):

        5. "1 Out of 1 Dentists Surveyed Recommend..."

        This one can be actively dangerous.

        >>>Clue Time: You are not the market.<<<
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    i appreciate you posting the thread derek but email marketing is far far from dead

    as andy said, its only because most people burn there lists

    if you ONLY do stuff which is in your subs best interest you will have no problems

    email is still the main way to communicate on the internet and it will be for a while yet. So no the sky is not falling and no email marketing will not be suddenly taken over by some genius awesome next best thing app or software

    paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Is e-mail marketing getting tougher?

      Yes.

      Does it bother ME?

      NO.

      The tougher e-mail marketing gets for the mediocre majority,
      the better it is for people who are willing to hone their skills
      and get better with time.

      As Earl Shoaff used to say...

      "Don't wish it were easier. Wish you were better.
      Don't wish for less problems. Wish for more skills."


      Put in the extra effort and reap the extra rewards.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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      .

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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        Is e-mail marketing getting tougher?

        Yes.

        Does it bother ME?

        NO.

        The tougher e-mail marketing gets for the mediocre majority,
        the better it is for people who are willing to hone their skills
        and get better in time.

        As Earl Shoaff used to say...

        "Don't wish it were easier. Wish you were better.
        Don't wish for less problems. Wish for more skills."


        Put in the effort and reap the extra rewards.

        Dedicated to mutual success,

        Shaun

        Shaun, it's great marketers like yourself and I that will still suffer from the failure of our ISP's and other factors that prevent our messages from EVER REACHING our prospects.

        Everyone keeps saying, "it's your marketing" and yes, it's part of it, but the there is an aspect that we have NO CONTROL OVER and that is ultimately whether our messages actually "make it" to our prospects inbox in the first place.

        Yes, yes, yes, good marketing, most of us do that, but I think it's wise to diversify and reach our prospects through other mediums as well, so that as the delieverability keeps falling, we've got other ways already set up. People like Brendan Burchard are doing this anyway and I think we should follow them. He did over 10 million last year, I think that's in huge part because he doesn't just rely on e-mail marketing.

        Remember, e-mail marketing is nothing more than a tool. It shouldn't be the ONLY way you communicate with your prospects and sadly it IS the only way most marketers have set up to get their message across.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
          Originally Posted by Derek Soto View Post

          Everyone keeps saying, "it's your marketing" and yes, it's part of it, but the there is an aspect that we have NO CONTROL OVER and that is ultimately whether our messages actually "make it" to our prospects inbox in the first place.
          I have a lot of control over MY e-mail deliverability.

          I use self-hosted autoresponder software that allows
          me to change my SMTP server in a heartbeat.

          I've got my own SMTP server. If that experiences any
          deliverability issues, I flip over to third-party SMTP server
          providers like smtp.com, authsmtp.com, sendgrid.com,
          etc.

          The challenging state of e-mail marketing has little to do
          with deliverability and more to do with people's changing
          habits and more marketing clutter.

          Dedicated to mutual success,

          Shaun
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          • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
            Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

            I have a lot of control over MY e-mail deliverability.

            I use self-hosted autoresponder software that allows
            me to change my SMTP server in a heartbeat.

            I've got my own SMTP server. If that experiences any
            deliverability issues, I flip over to third-party SMTP server
            providers like smtp.com, authsmtp.com, sendgrid.com,
            etc.

            The challenging state of e-mail marketing has little to do
            with deliverability and more to do with people's changing
            habits and more marketing clutter.

            Dedicated to mutual success,

            Shaun
            Shaun, EVERYBODY who does e-mail marketing and has the money should be doing what you are doing, "controlling their own e-mail deliverability." but that is only a temporary fix as genius as it is.

            However, at the end of the day, a lot of money is left on the table by ONLY using e-mail, and overall, email open rates are also on decline. Maybe not for you Shaun, but for the majority of people and YES bad marketers do make it harder for those of us who actually offer value. But at the end of the day, e-mail marketing is dying and while everyone is in LOVE with it, Ryan Diess released a study he did that showed that e-mail open rates pale in comparison to text messages and facebook posts with people in high school and college. We can't ignore this and while we can still use e-mail marketing now, we SHOULD diversify and not allow e-mail marketing to be our ONLY way to communicate with our prospects.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Originally Posted by paul nicholls View Post

      i appreciate you posting the thread derek but email marketing is far far from dead

      as andy said, its only because most people burn there lists

      if you ONLY do stuff which is in your subs best interest you will have no problems

      email is still the main way to communicate on the internet and it will be for a while yet. So no the sky is not falling and no email marketing will not be suddenly taken over by some genius awesome next best thing app or software

      paul
      I agree with you on the respect that e-mail is the main way we communicate with our prospects, however we would not be responsible to simply ignore the fact that e-mail delieverability IS a HUGE PROBLEM and it's not getting any better.

      Earlier I noticed that there are a lot of messages I want from good marketers that ended up in my spam box, messages from john reese, dan brock, tim atkinson, and many others.

      e-mail marketing is dying and no it won't be dead tomorrow or next year but it's getting much, much harder to get your messages in your prospects in-box, not having much to do with what you write or how you market, it's because unscrupulous marketers are ruining it for the rest of us.

      e-mail marketing is not dying because of people not interested in our e-mails, it's because of the MASSIVE DELIVERABLITLY PROBLEM that you don't have much personal control of and let's face it, how many of your leads actually listen to our instructions to "white list" our email address?

      To solve this problem, I think if marketers, NOW, WELL IN ADVANCE, diversify their lists and get used to contacting their leads in more than just one way, they will be safe if e-mail deliverabilty keeps declining.
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  • I can't wait to see whats dying next week.

    Place your bets now.
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    • Profile picture of the author BulletheadX
      Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

      I can't wait to see whats dying next week.

      Place your bets now.
      I hear dying is dying... if it's not already dead? :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author StevenJones
    As long as this earth spins, new people will get born and some of these new-borns will be on a Internet marketing list. I hope this makes sense.. There will be a continious flow of (new) people coming to the Internet waiting to get marketed by dudes and chicks like us.. So no it won't die.

    Also, the money is not in the list itself. The real money is in the relationship with your list.
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Email marketing is not dying. Yes there are a lot of people doing the same thing but it will continue to strive.

    I took the detour of finally closing my auto-responder account and devoted all my energy to MLM online companies that do collect names and emails.

    The auto-responder company that I was using was starting to get on my nerves because they were taking too much money. They got greedy.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post


    Many people destroy their email lists by over marketing - that's what kills them.

    I'm experiencing deja vu,
    sort-of like we have all
    had this conversation before...
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    ...A tachyon enters a bar.

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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    E-Mail marketing is totally dying.

    You should all quit.

    I'm not going to.

    But you should.
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  • Profile picture of the author savvybizbuilder
    Email marketing is still the best way to market your business. Other marketing strategy will fade but never an email marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author equanto
    All Depends by ourself

    wheel not going on top forever
    sometimes up,, sometimes down

    just enjoy it
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    What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it.
    Stories of Another day can be saved by your STEPS
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Interestingly, with all the growth of social media in order to get an account
    you have to have an email address. Any service in compeition with email
    requires an email. What does that say about the health of email?

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by myob View Post

      Actually the best thing that has happened for email marketers in the last five years has been the surge in smartphone usage. This has led email to be the number-one activity among internet-capable consumers. Perhaps a strategic rethink in creative changes for email promotions are in order to fully capitalize on this trend which is now approaching near ubiquity, as 76 percent of smartphone users (in the United States) read email on their phones.
      ...Which is also why I have picked-up
      the terrible and annoying habit of
      typing all of my paragraphs in a thin
      format. A very (non-scientific) survey
      of my readers tells me that many are
      annoyed because their phones do not
      adjust the emails so that the can read
      without having to scroll.

      Of course, that may also be a reflection
      on the quality of my emails... Maybe they
      are not worth scrolling for? LOL!!



      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      Interestingly, with all the growth of social media in order to get an account
      you have to have an email address. Any service in compeition with email
      requires an email. What does that say about the health of email?

      -Ray Edwards
      Exactly... Even to join this forum
      we had to provide an email address.


      Taking it a step further, most people
      seem to have a perception, whether
      or not it is accurate, that their email
      is a very private and personal form
      of communication.

      This perceived privacy gets people
      to open up and say more than they
      would in almost any other medium.
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  • Profile picture of the author JakeTech
    "Email is dying" so the solution is diversify into postal mail? Sounds retrogressive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    I was only talking about this subject earlier, saying the exact opposite. How impressive it is that my best conversions have always come from showing an offer to my list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Email marketing is still a money-maker in my business. Depending on your niche, your email list income will vary depending on what you are selling, and how you structure your emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author zamzung
    Those are nice advices but I can't agree with you that email marketing is dying... if you have a great content and give value to your subscribers, they would be dumb not to open your emails... and they are not dumb... everything gets down to what you are doing with your list...
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  • My rates are down on email but it's far from dead yet.
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    soon people... Relax...
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    its a little annoying all these "The DEATH OF..." threads.

    I can tell you building a list totally changed my life, and email marketing is one of the keys that newbies fail to utilize effectively.

    for those that do it wrong, see no results.

    For those that do it right, well...they never have to work another 9 to 5'er in their life again. Simple as that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      I found the replies very interesting and they have inspired me.

      It doesn't mean stop using e-mail by any means. What I really wanted to get across was two points. One, e-mail marketing is getting harder and harder to get good open rates and that people should diversify how they contact their prospects.

      We can't lose sight of the fact that different people respond to different types of marketing and that we should at least "consider" other methods to supplement the e-mail marketing, which is better for your prospects in a good number of cases.

      If you love e-mail, keep using it, however is it bad to try other methods of communication so that as e-mail response keeps declining, you'll already have something set up?

      My only hope for this thread is to spark a paradigm shift in those who are willing to listen, to diversify their lists and not put all their eggs in one basket.
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  • Profile picture of the author JerrickYeoh
    In previous i just going with email marketing to 50k emails database which is unknown and random . I find out that it not effective at all while the open rate just 0.01 %.
    Is that the problem of headline or is the problem of the database list ?
    Email is really good to generate repeat sales with own generate database. But seem like not pretty well in generating new sale.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Originally Posted by JerrickYeoh View Post

      In previous i just going with email marketing to 50k emails database which is unknown and random . I find out that it not effective at all while the open rate just 0.01 %.
      Is that the problem of headline or is the problem of the database list ?
      Email is really good to generate repeat sales with own generate database. But seem like not pretty well in generating new sale.
      E-mail is effective at both leads and sales, however the source of your leads is the most important factor.

      What you were doing was essentially "spamming" people. Which wastes your time and theirs and is illegal.

      However, submitting content to other high traffic web sites with a back link to a squeeze page is a great way to get HIGH QUALITY leads and e-mail addresses.

      You can also purchase PPC from google, yahoo, bing, facebook and a legion of other sites.

      I've had lists with as little as 150 people on them that did better than lists with 3,000 people. However how you relate to your list is important.

      Because people say it's the list, while others say, no, it's the relationship with your list, but that's not even the full story.

      You can have a great relationship with your list, but unless you make them an offer, you'll make no money.

      That is why it's important to learn how to be cool to your list and learn how to build a relationship with them, while making valuable offers to them on a continual basis.

      But again, don't just rely on e-mail. Get your subscribers to give you their address so you can send them ( with their permission ) a cool free book, program or something else of value and along with that cool free thing, make an offer to them that could add even more value to what they are trying to do.

      Derek
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  • Profile picture of the author Tadresources
    I keep hearing this and all I can say is "YAWN". Of course things are changing, the internet is changing and as Chris Kent said, there probably won't even be such a thing as email marketing in 20 years (or even 10). I think Chris is spot on. The way the younger generation has begun giving away their privacy hand over heel over the last decade will mean huge changes in the way we communicate online. Honestly I don't know what that means for marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author IAHawkI
    And here I was just gaining traction with building my list...

    I have had success with physical mailing before but there is lots of up-front costs and risk.

    I'm going to keep building my email list and work on sending them the right offers and not over-market to them.

    Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Email marketing is not dying but in 20 years email may not even exist.

      Don't forget that in many ways it's quite archaic in nature.

      Big companies are trying to get us to have a sole ID online and the younger generation have been duped into thinking that their privacy doesn't matter and they should spill warts and all about themselves online.

      We'll probably reach a stage where you need an OpenID or authenticated G+/Facebook account just to buy products and services online and if you don't then "you have something to hide". I honestly see this happening.

      And when it does, email will then be pretty much dead.
      Originally Posted by Tadresources View Post

      I keep hearing this and all I can say is "YAWN". Of course things are changing, the internet is changing and as Chris Kent said, there probably won't even be such a thing as email marketing in 20 years (or even 10). I think Chris is spot on. The way the younger generation has begun giving away their privacy hand over heel over the last decade will mean huge changes in the way we communicate online. Honestly I don't know what that means for marketing.
      Originally Posted by IAHawkI View Post

      And here I was just gaining traction with building my list...

      I have had success with physical mailing before but there is lots of up-front costs and risk.

      I'm going to keep building my email list and work on sending them the right offers and not over-market to them.

      Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
      All very interesting responses. It's interesting to see the different points of view people have on some of these posts. I think it really teaches us a lot about psychology and human behavior.
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  • Profile picture of the author dimager2003
    Come one, nothing is dying - I am going to start bulding a list in a week or so after I'll get done with all the preparations like LP, 50 letters sales funnel at least and much more. Few questions I wanted to ask from people who already have lists:
    How much money can I expect from 1000 subscribers?

    One thing I get that you have to earn the trust of your subscribers and it can't be done by pitching them with something to buy every email you send, so what is the frequency of a "sale" messages? One from...3/4/5? Consider that I don't want a list for a month - I want to keep it working for me for a long run so burning it fast is not an option for me.

    How do you write an email that suppose to sell a product or service? Someone can give me a link to a course or WSO or maybe some good free resource of information? I don't care to spend money on this because without the basic I am just going to waste my time...

    Do you ever stop building a list? How much is enough? I am doing PPV and I believe I can get a nice volume of subscribers pretty fast but what you consider big list? 10000? 20000?

    One last question - I am intending to buld a list in dating market for men who are ready to spend money( to make sure that I am going to pop up over dating website that have monthly membership fee). Do you think it is good enough to make sure this is going to be a list of buyers?

    TNX
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by dimager2003 View Post

      :
      How much money can I expect from 1000 subscribers?
      The general answer is an average of about
      $1 per month per subscriber. Your results may vary.


      Originally Posted by dimager2003 View Post

      :
      One thing I get that you have to earn the trust of your subscribers and it can't be done by pitching them with something to buy every email you send, so what is the frequency of a "sale" messages? One from...3/4/5? Consider that I don't want a list for a month - I want to keep it working for me for a long run so burning it fast is not an option for me.
      This really depends a lot on how you build your
      list and what your targetic demographic is.
      Sorry for the generic answer but it is true.


      Originally Posted by dimager2003 View Post

      :
      How do you write an email that suppose to sell a product or service?
      The normal strategy is to have the email get
      readers interested, and add a link to the
      sales page.


      Originally Posted by dimager2003 View Post

      :
      Someone can give me a link to a course or WSO or maybe some good free resource of information? I don't care to spend money on this because without the basic I am just going to waste my time...
      You're not wasting your time if you are learning,
      and the methods of others may or may not work
      for you.


      Originally Posted by dimager2003 View Post

      :
      Do you ever stop building a list? How much is enough? I am doing PPV and I believe I can get a nice volume of subscribers pretty fast but what you consider big list? 10000? 20000?
      You will branch out and actually have lists, plural.
      Sure, you can build a massive list if that is your strategy.
      Others among us prefer a smaller, more highly targeted
      list. I delete people who stop opening my emails, and
      myob deletes them if they don't buy within 90 days.
      So again, this is something you have to answer through
      your own strategy and testing.


      Originally Posted by dimager2003 View Post

      :
      One last question - I am intending to buld a list in dating market for men who are ready to spend money( to make sure that I am going to pop up over dating website that have monthly membership fee). Do you think it is good enough to make sure this is going to be a list of buyers?

      TNX
      The only way to build a list of buyers
      is to get them to buy something.
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