Anyone Getting PayPal Problems About WF?

247 replies
Had a few marketers state that they don't do WSOs here as PayPal starts asking questions about 'forums' and WSOs.

Never had a problem but I only submitted one WSO over the years.

If there is a problem what does it stem from? How to correct it?
#paypal #problems
  • Profile picture of the author TheProgrammer
    i never use Paypal buy now link directly in my services, i use getdpd, e-junkie etc..
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  • Profile picture of the author alfid
    I have had paypal such down accounts the second they realize I am getting paid for non-tangible internet things. It sucks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Samrath Gupta
    Usually If PAYPAL will start watching BIG money coming into your account..

    They'll probably freeze your account(or something like this) and you wont be able to Withdraw/Deposit/Take money!

    You'll have to answer their questions.. Like They may request ID proofs, Address proof,etc..

    Once you fulfill their requirements.. They'll again leave you as a FREE BIRD

    Regards
    ~Sam~
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    • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
      Originally Posted by Samrath Gupta View Post

      Usually If PAYPAL will start watching BIG money coming into your account..

      They'll probably freeze your account(or something like this) and you wont be able to Withdraw/Deposit/Take money!

      You'll have to answer their questions.. Like They may request ID proofs, Address proof,etc..

      Once you fulfill their requirements.. They'll again leave you as a FREE BIRD

      Regards
      ~Sam~
      I had that in the early days, they got scared I was money laundering but a quick phone call and some correspondence and its been plain sailing ever since.
      It seems only scammers and fraudsters are worried by paypals security checks.

      It also seems that WSOPro is a contributing factor.
      There is an old saying that seems relevant 'Greed is every mans downfall'
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    • Profile picture of the author Abbie88
      Originally Posted by Samrath Gupta View Post

      Usually If PAYPAL will start watching BIG money coming into your account..

      They'll probably freeze your account(or something like this) and you wont be able to Withdraw/Deposit/Take money!

      You'll have to answer their questions.. Like They may request ID proofs, Address proof,etc..

      Once you fulfill their requirements.. They'll again leave you as a FREE BIRD

      Regards
      ~Sam~
      Nope. It didn't work for me.
      They still freeze my account after I provided all docs they told me to submit.
      All was done without any answer for me about the real reason why they did it.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    So using PayPal with a WSO is not a good idea.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

      So using PayPal with a WSO is not a good idea.
      Nonsense. Plenty of us use PayPal with WSOs and have for years. Just be sure to be in as much alignment with their AUP as possible.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Thompson
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        Nonsense. Plenty of us use PayPal with WSOs and have for years. Just be sure to be in as much alignment with their AUP as possible.

        Nothing at all wrong with using PayPal.

        PayPal is just concerned about fraud - and them ending up holding the bag. And they don't end up holding the bag often anymore because of their vigilance.

        When you anticipate a large influx of money via PayPal, you can let them know in advance and that will definitely take the heat off. You may have to answer a few questions. Answer confidently and truthfully. If they get to trust you, you have very little to worry about with them.

        I have handled tens of thousands a month with PayPal without any question after finding out how to work with them.

        Just understand that they are perpetually worried about ending up holding the bag. Your job is to give them enough information so that they realize that you aren't a/the problem.

        If you give them any reason to worry about you, you will have to go somewhere else for payment processing.

        Daniel Thompson
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    • Profile picture of the author Tony Dean
      Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

      So using PayPal with a WSO is not a good idea.

      I've said it before - people selling anything on this forum should have alternative payments methods and let the buyers choose - better still don't use Paypal at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Tony Dean View Post

        I've said it before - people selling anything on this forum should have alternative payments methods and let the buyers choose - better still don't use Paypal at all.
        You will find it very hard, almost impossible, to attract any affiliates when you are offering alternate payment processors on the same page. Why would I promote a product when they could then purchase it through a different processor and I get no credit for that?

        In theory a good idea but not if you want people to promote your offer.
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        • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          You will find it very hard, almost impossible, to attract any affiliates when you are offering alternate payment processors on the same page. Why would I promote a product when they could then purchase it through a different processor and I get no credit for that?

          In theory a good idea but not if you want people to promote your offer.
          Well, if the vendors use a 'common affiliate program,' that supports multiple payment processors, the affiliate will get the credit no matter which payment processor is used to make the sale.

          There are several that do this, however, there is only ONE that will allow the vendor to pay instant commissions and that is PayGear.

          There are a couple of ways to do it, see sig file for info.

          I've moved all of my products to the PayGear marketplace. I find it far superior to anything else out there, and it allows me to mitigate my risk of having one payment processor freeze ALL of my money without sacrificing affiliates or the instant commissions they want.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Originally Posted by AmandaT View Post

            I recently called PayPal because I was thinking about posting a WSO. They didn't really have much to say on the topic besides read the ToS but they did mention one of the issues they have is how so many sellers advertise their affiliate program in the sales copy and all over in their tread. "You can promote this product to make money!" should not be a selling point for your product.
            Exactly what I've been trying to tell people, Amanda. That's the exact same thing I've been told by two different PayPal reps when I've discussed the WSO section and the digital marketplace.
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  • I was talking to Willie Crawford a few days ago
    and he told me that Paypal was cracking down
    on WSOs as a rule.

    He ran a highly successful WSO back in January and
    they shut his account down - and he's been using
    Paypal since before God made dirt!

    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Michael Worthington View Post

      I was talking to Willie Crawford a few days ago
      and he told me that Paypal was cracking down
      on WSOs as a rule.

      He ran a highly successful WSO back in January and
      they shut his account down - and he's been using
      Paypal since before God made dirt!
      Did Willie post anything about this? It may be better to avoid the WSO services and use a redirect to PayPal to avoid a potentially tainted trail.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        If it were simply the fact that people were using the WSO forum, don't you think that PayPal would simply go after everyone who is using that section? It wouldn't be too difficult to do.

        Not to mention that Allen still has his account and so does Mike Lantz. It's clearly not a matter of simply using the WSO section.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

          If it were simply the fact that people were using the WSO forum, don't you think that PayPal would simply go after everyone who is using that section? It wouldn't be too difficult to do.

          Not to mention that Allen still has his account and so does Mike Lantz. It's clearly not a matter of simply using the WSO section.
          Exactly. It would literally take them all of 1 hour to shut down and remove any account that is using the Warrior Plus ipn or that has sold products with item numbers that start with 'wso#'.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

          Not to mention that Allen still has his account and so does Mike Lantz. It's clearly not a matter of simply using the WSO section.
          Tina,

          It appears from what Allen posted recently in this thread:

          http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post6202695

          ...that he's at least a little concerned about how some of the more recent WSO services might impact on his PayPal account. I quote from his post (my highlights):

          I've recently deleted all references to Warrior+ from the WSO section because I don't care much for any of these services. True, they may give the Warrior Forum more exposure but they are far more a pain in my ass than they are worth.
          I've never once had an issue with paypal until these got going.
          And to those who run one of these services, do us both a favor and don't overstep your bounds. Some of the 'features' starting to crop up I don't particularly care for.
          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

            Tina,

            It appears from what Allen posted recently in this thread:

            http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post6202695

            ...that he's at least a little concerned about how some of the more recent WSO services might impact on his PayPal account. I quote from his post (my highlights):

            Frank
            It is only a guess and I could be way off, but I suspect Allen would be more concerned with the affiliate marketing practices in use that are being associated with this forum, directly because of these services. Not to mention the liberties being being taken with tradmarks.

            Back before theses affiliate platforms focused so much of their attention on the WF, and before they ingrained themselves as part of the forum culture, the level of dubious affiliate promotional activities that pointed to payment buttons on this forum would have been significantly lower.
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      • Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Did Willie post anything about this? It may be better to avoid the WSO services and use a redirect to PayPal to avoid a potentially tainted trail.

        .
        Brian, I don't know if he posted about it or not.
        The only reason I knew about it at the time
        was on account of doing some work for him about
        the time his account got closed and he had to work
        out an alternative method to pay me.

        He didn't go into a lot of detail other than to say
        that several of his associates and friends had
        their accounts closed after running successful WSOs.

        Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Michael Worthington View Post

      I was talking to Willie Crawford a few days ago
      and he told me that Paypal was cracking down
      on WSOs as a rule.

      He ran a highly successful WSO back in January and
      they shut his account down - and he's been using
      Paypal since before God made dirt!

      Michael
      Just because his account was closed after a successful WSO isn't proof they are cracking down on WSOs. Especially as a rule.

      The influx of payments might have had them look at the WSO and find a violation of what he was selling.

      OR... it was a coincidence.

      YEARS ago, a guy had his account closed for a product that NEVER received a sale. Had been online for over a year. The product did violate terms and since it had a PayPal order button, his account was cancelled.

      Garrie

      PS. It might just look like WSOs are being targeted because of the types od WSOs normaly ran.
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by Michael Worthington View Post

      I was talking to Willie Crawford a few days ago
      and he told me that Paypal was cracking down
      on WSOs as a rule.

      He ran a highly successful WSO back in January and
      they shut his account down - and he's been using
      Paypal since before God made dirt!

      Michael


      Paypal did freeze TWO of my accounts, largely because
      I was processing too much money, and it was for a digital
      product.

      I had a less than 1% refund rate, and had been using
      Paypal since BEFORE they were even called Paypal.

      I have talked to dozens of others who have had accounts
      frozen for as long as six months.

      Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author ToddRestrepo
    Trust me I have been researching this a lot lately and PayPal is causing a lot of problems for a LOT of people and there are quite a few well-known warriors that have had their WSOs shut down 12, 24, 36 hours after launch.

    I wish I could tell you different but the facts are the facts. I think it's going to get tougher down the road. This is only me speaking but I think what is raising the red flag is the structure of the WSO launches (especially the really big ones), you've got 1,000+ people buying the initial product, that becomes one complete transaction and then 60 seconds later they have to make another unique transaction to pay for the OTO and in a lot of cases there will be a third transaction to purchase yet another up sell.

    So PayPal is seeing these multiple purchases within seconds of each other and they start to throw their weight around......sounds a little familiar doesn't it?

    Again only my 2 cents! I give you more but at the moment PayPal has locked my account

    Todd
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by ToddRestrepo View Post

      Trust me I have been researching this a lot lately and PayPal is causing a lot of problems for a LOT of people and there are quite a few well-known warriors that have had their WSOs shut down 12, 24, 36 hours after launch.

      I wish I could tell you different but the facts are the facts. I think it's going to get tougher down the road. This is only me speaking but I think what is raising the red flag is the structure of the WSO launches (especially the really big ones), you've got 1,000+ people buying the initial product, that becomes one complete transaction and then 60 seconds later they have to make another unique transaction to pay for the OTO and in a lot of cases there will be a third transaction to purchase yet another up sell.

      So PayPal is seeing these multiple purchases within seconds of each other and they start to throw their weight around......sounds a little familiar doesn't it?

      Again only my 2 cents! I give you more but at the moment PayPal has locked my account

      Todd
      You're exactly right.

      It's a very well known fact that Paypal have automatic fraud detection systems in place -- they would be mad if they didn't. It's impossible for them to manually keep an eye on every account so they have these fraud alerts in place that are triggered whenever an account exhibits a weird pattern of behavior.

      This might be as simple as an account getting a large sum of money over a very short period of time, multiple transactions from a large number of people (this is caused by OTO's and upsells immediately after the initial purchase) and so on.

      All of these things are bound to set off their fraud alerts and encourage a manual (human) review of your account. That's when they start nit picking and looking at every single part of your business, inside and out... and if they then find something they don't like, boom, you're gone.

      The trick is to never come on their radar in the first place. That basically means doing none of the stuff I mentioned above. That means no upsells or OTO's immediately after people purchase. That means selling tangible items like software and plugins rather than 'how to' courses. That means no BIG rush of money into your Paypal account.

      Do any of those things above and you're only asking for trouble.

      I will guarantee you every single person who has had their account shut down whilst selling WSO's have either been selling OTO's or upsells, or got a huge rush of money into their otherwise dormant account.
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by ToddRestrepo View Post

      ....
      I wish I could tell you different but the facts are the facts. I think it's going to get tougher down the road. This is only me speaking but I think what is raising the red flag is the structure of the WSO launches (especially the really big ones), you've got 1,000+ people buying the initial product, that becomes one complete transaction and then 60 seconds later they have to make another unique transaction to pay for the OTO and in a lot of cases there will be a third transaction to purchase yet another up sell.

      So PayPal is seeing these multiple purchases within seconds of each other and they start to throw their weight around......sounds a little familiar doesn't it?

      Again only my 2 cents! I give you more but at the moment PayPal has locked my account

      Todd
      I didn't offer OTO's or any types of upsells on my products when Paypal
      frozen an account, so it's not just that, although that may be one
      thing that they look at.

      Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author rmolina88
    My paypal account got locked after I was making some good extra money with some OTOs I had with my squeeze pages.

    I had no choice but to remove the OTOs
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  • Profile picture of the author ToddRestrepo
    Thanks! You just bumped my 2 cent advice up to at least a nickle.
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  • Profile picture of the author andreasup
    The PayPal problem may be specific to WSOs but I can tell you that PP froze my account after I made several Fiverr purchases in a row. Not only did I have to wait 24 hours for them to re-approve my account, I had to give them my home phone number so they could call and "confirm I was who I said I was." It was a major pain.

    I also had 8 hours of PP freeze after some Empire Avenue eaves purchase.

    I think they're just getting super picky about a whole lot of different IM type of services. Not just WSO. Of course I could be totally wrong, but thought I would share my experiences with PP.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gerald Arno
    Banned
    I´m making a full time income through my PayPal account and never had a problem with freezing my account.

    If PayPal sees abnormal activities on your account they might freeze it.

    Also, I never had a problem with paying for WSOs or even selling my own.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    Things are starting to get clearer as to what is going on. I've some pals at PayPal and I'll ask them what's up now that I can see what's happening here. It may or may not be WF related and just a procedure that some on WF got into.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

      It may or may not be WF related and just a procedure that some on WF got into.
      PayPal is highly suspicious of certain behaviours.

      1. Forced opt-in to a list before you can download the product you bought. This is what they consider a "hidden cost" that you have not properly disclosed.

      2. Additional buy buttons between payment and download. This is considered shady and scammy, because customers may believe this added purchase is necessary to get what they've paid for. (You can see these customers complaining that they buy a WSO, then get told the WSO doesn't work unless they buy the upsell, too. Regardless of whether this is true, they believe it is.)

      3. PLR and MRR, because you are selling stuff for people to sell. They think this is a pretty good indicator that it is not worth buying UNLESS you are going to sell it, and has no other significant value.

      4. 100% commission offers. PayPal think these are clever dodges and workarounds to the "no MLM" policy on their service. It doesn't help that people use the words "network" and "rotation" trying to explain it.

      It is worth noting that the first three scenarios are things that PayPal not only thinks are unacceptable on their service, but that PayPal legitimately believes are violations of fair trade practices and FTC guidelines.

      They are keenly aware of WSO Pro and the Warrior Forum, because a lot of these things go on here. We're also pretty quick to say you should make fast money by promoting affiliate products, then create your own product, then list it with an affiliate program on some Warrior-owned service... but there's rarely any discussion of like, learning stuff, or having something worth selling.

      Primarily because it's cultural. We tend to conceal our niches, which means many Warriors carefully avoid any giveaway information about how we learn and what we sell. But PayPal doesn't know our culture, and they're not asking a lot of questions because they don't want to understand us. They just want to know whether we're a risk, and most of us here are pretty quick to say that 90% of WSOs are garbage because this industry is full of liars, cheats, scammers, and thieves.

      Which is kind of a "yes" on that risk question.
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      • Profile picture of the author Networking_now
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


        2. Additional buy buttons between payment and download. This is considered shady and scammy, because customers may believe this added purchase is necessary to get what they've paid for. (You can see these customers complaining that they buy a WSO, then get told the WSO doesn't work unless they buy the upsell, too. Regardless of whether this is true, they believe it is.)

        3. PLR and MRR, because you are selling stuff for people to sell. They think this is a pretty good indicator that it is not worth buying UNLESS you are going to sell it, and has no other significant value.

        4. 100% commission offers. PayPal think these are clever dodges and workarounds to the "no MLM" policy on their service. It doesn't help that people use the words "network" and "rotation" trying to explain it.
        2) additional buy buttons ? between payment/download button?

        what about things like Rapid actions profits, which offer upsell/oto offers?
        will they not like this ?

        3) PLR/ MRR? so you mean we cant do PLR + MRR packages as wsos, for others to sell, or paypal get suspicious ?>

        4) 100% commission offers?
        so does that mean affiliates who promote our wsos, for 100% ?
        they will not like that ?
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        • Profile picture of the author MP80
          I know that many warriors have used Paypal without problems in the past, but the landscape is always changing, so I think it's a discussion worth having.

          Jenn Dize is one person who has had a few problems with Paypal in just the last two weeks. For those who don't know her, she is an ethical warrior who only promotes quality, and creates most of her own products. She does maybe one affiliate promotion every fortnight, and it's usually stuff that she has personally reviewed.

          Anyway, regarding paypal, here is a quote from a couple of her emails (make of it what you will). It is interesting to note that although most of this took place over a weekend, it was still resolved within about two days.

          I'm writing with a sad note today. I always do my best to only promote things I believe in, and of course I make sure my products and services are top-notch.

          Still, for whatever reason, PayPal has limited my account. They were very specific and clear that it's because of the Warrior Forum.

          I'm working to resolve this with them (which includes cutting all payment ties and affiliate associations with WF).

          In the meantime, I can't buy, sell, or do anything else with my account.

          I have an extremely low refund rate, happy customers, great products... so I'm very shocked this has happened.

          Whenever I heard of this happening to people, I assumed it was something they did "wrong." Well, I know I haven't done anything wrong

          For now, I'd be very protective of your own account.

          Be well!
          And two days later:

          Hi everyone,

          I'm pleased to announce that my PayPal account limitation has been reversed, with their apologies.

          I want to thank everyone for their kind words and prayers - you helped more than you'll ever know!!!

          I'm creating a list of some key facts I think everyone should know:

          - My PayPal account was limited, and Warrior Forum was specifically mentioned as the problem.

          - There were 3 steps I needed to take, to even get my account under review to lift the limit -- without these 3 steps, nothing would have been done.

          - I spoke with 4 different reps, all saying the same thing about what I needed to do (all were very nice people)

          - I contacted Warrior Forum and Warrior Plus to make them aware -- not sure if they used their contacts to help.

          - The AUP department was who needed to review my case. They called me almost 24 hours later (on a Sunday) to express their apologies...it was their error.

          - Even though I'd done NOTHING wrong, I still got limited. This can happen to you. I want you to be aware and ready.

          - I repeat, from their own lips, I did nothing wrong and it was their error.

          - I asked very specifically about the Warrior Forum -- There are "bad eggs" there, they admit, but there are no problems, at all, with the forum and there is no investigation or "eye" there -- note that I am suspicious of this part

          Where I go from here:

          - I'm free to use PayPal as I always have.

          - I will not promote WSO's, for the time being.

          - I will not launch paid WSO's for the time being.

          - I may still launch freebie-list building WSO's.

          - I am going to diversify -- go back to more niche site, more Kindle books, more of all the stuff I know, to make sure I never run into the issue of "they have my money and my ability to accept payments, now what??", again.

          - Know that everyone's situation is different, and there are different kinds of limitations and reasons for limitations.

          Paypal, its policies, government policies, and the landscape of marketing are ever-changing.

          Be smart and proactive in your actions.
          Unfortunately, Jenn doesn't go into detail about what the three things were that needed changing. That information may have shed some light on why she is not promoting/releasing WSO's for the time being (even though Paypal said it was their mistake), so I will contact her and see if she can clarify that part.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Networking_now View Post

          what about things like Rapid actions profits, which offer upsell/oto offers?
          You can do those in many different ways. I've done pre-sale upsell and OTO with RAP; it's not hard. What PayPal doesn't like is when someone pays for a product, and then is asked to pay again with added sales copy and a pair of links that look something like this:

          PAY MORE
          No thanks I already paid

          This is psychologically calculated to make the average person looking at it think he has to pay more, or he can't have what he just bought. We call that "increasing conversion." It's super effective. It's also coercive.

          PayPal is a lot happier if your links look like this:

          Yes, More
          No, Thanks

          It's easy to see that you have a choice. The bottom link isn't barely legible; it's clear and simple. It's still a "cool" colour and not a "warm" colour, and the "Yes" link is bigger, so you're still encouraging more Yes than No. But you're no longer trying to trick anyone into thinking they MUST pay more.

          But they'd be even happier if you asked about the upsell and the OTO before the customer got to PayPal. They'd like to see the customer going to PayPal once, buying the one selection he wants, and then getting what he bought.

          so you mean we cant do PLR + MRR packages
          You can do whatever you want. You should offer PLR for other people to edit and republish (raw text, not full turnkey products), and MRR as an upsell to a lower-cost personal rights product. What makes PayPal suspicious is when you have a product that you are not selling as a product with value, but only as a thing people can sell.

          Simply put? Don't sell selling. PayPal doesn't like it. They think it smacks of MLM.

          does that mean affiliates who promote our wsos, for 100% ?
          Yes, because this has all the elements of a scam.

          - You are not selling the product
          - You do not get paid for the product
          - But you control the content of the product

          This is a reasonably solid legal footing for certain spurious defense claims which I will not detail further.

          What it comes down to is whether you are being fair and honest with your customers. If you have a sales funnel and purchase process which are comfortable and convenient for your customers, PayPal likes this. If you do a funnel and process that are calculated to extract as much money as possible before delivering anything, PayPal does not like that one bit.
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          • Profile picture of the author Networking_now
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post



            Quote:
            does that mean affiliates who promote our wsos, for 100% ?
            Yes, because this has all the elements of a scam.

            - You are not selling the product
            - You do not get paid for the product
            - But you control the content of the product

            This is a reasonably solid legal footing for certain spurious defense claims which I will not detail further.
            Thanks.

            Yes ?

            Paypal don't like the 100% Commission model, that Warrior + offers?

            and which RAP, and $7DSS offer?

            Then Mike Lantz,and Side hale are being sneaky...right ? lol (as they both offer this 100% commission, that affiliates can earn.

            PP doesn't like this you mean?
            and what is the way around this ? (as many marketers offer 100% to their affiliates)


            and RAP also offer the OTO feature too, (or is that 'before' the customer pays any money?)
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            • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
              Originally Posted by Networking_now View Post

              Paypal don't like the 100% Commission model, that Warrior + offers?

              and which RAP, and $7DSS offer?
              First, nowhere in Paypal's AUP do they say that they have a problem with any particular level of commissions.

              What they do have a problem with... is selling an opportunity. So, if you advertise your 100% commission program on your sales page, it will appear that at least some portion of your offer is the "opportunity".

              This is not new. According to Jon Leger's 2007 post (in what was, at the time, his forum), his own Paypal account was suspended specifically because he offered 100% commissions on the $7 Secrets system, to buyers of that system.

              He advertised this on the sales page for 7DSS, essentially making it a part of the offer.

              Many of his customers then re-sold $7 Secrets (or sold their own products using the script, and the same affiliate recruitment techniques) - with the same problems.

              The problem wasn't with the script (nor with the commission structure) - it was with the sales page.

              Then Mike Lantz,and Side hale are being sneaky...right ? lol (as they both offer this 100% commission, that affiliates can earn.
              No...
              Neither RAP nor WSO + offers 100% commissions.

              Some merchants who use our systems offer 100% commissions, but I don't, and I don't believe that Mike does, either.

              We do allow merchants who use our systems to offer 100% commissions for their products, but as explained above... that's not the real problem.

              The problem is that some merchants feel that the only way to recruit affiliates - is on the sales page of the product, itself.

              and what is the way around this ? (as many marketers offer 100% to their affiliates)
              Simple - totally separate your sales efforts from your affiliate recruitment efforts.

              Don't even put a link to your affiliate sign up page at the bottom of your sales letter. It doesn't belong there! (using the 2nd post in a WSO thread for this purpose has the same problems)

              It's a "leak" and I can't think of a quicker way to get an affiliate to ignore your product, than to invite sales page visitors (the traffic that affiliates send to your sales page) into your affiliate program.

              and RAP also offer the OTO feature too, (or is that 'before' the customer pays any money?)
              Again, your information is flawed.

              There is nothing wrong with offering an OTO on return from Paypal. What you must do, is give the buyer a very clear link to bypass that offer and continue on to your download page.
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              • Profile picture of the author Networking_now
                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


                Then Mike Lantz,and Side hale are being sneaky...right ? lol (as they both offer this 100% commission, that affiliates can earn.
                There is nothing wrong with offering an OTO on return from Paypal. What you must do, is give the buyer a very clear link to bypass that offer and continue on to your download page.
                Does it matter if this OTO is after they have already paid?

                so if they pay $10 for the product, immediately before the download page a OTO is offered to them?


                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


                No...
                Neither RAP nor WSO + offers 100% commissions.

                Some merchants who use our systems offer 100% commissions, but I don't, and I don't believe that Mike does, either.
                what i meant is, RAP and WSO +, for people who purchase this script, 'these purchasers' can offer their affiliates 100% commission. I didn't mean RAP and W+ themselves as sales pages, sellign them. But the customers who buy them, integrate them in their sales funnel, and allow affiliates to sell for 100% Commission.

                otherwise thanks for clearing stuff up.
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              • Profile picture of the author TaxFreeQuid
                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


                Simple - totally separate your sales efforts from your affiliate recruitment efforts.

                Don't even put a link to your affiliate sign up page at the bottom of your sales letter. It doesn't belong there! (using the 2nd post in a WSO thread for this purpose has the same problems)

                It's a "leak" and I can't think of a quicker way to get an affiliate to ignore your product, than to invite sales page visitors (the traffic that affiliates send to your sales page) into your affiliate program.


                Hi Sid Hale,

                I do love your comments but would like to quickly comment on the part quoted above.

                I don't feel there is a huge issue with vendors putting affiliate sign up link on a sale page.The good affiliates payment processors like W+,JVzoo and i think Digiresults,may not allow anyone to make a purchase via their own affiliate link.

                So if an affiliate needs to purchase the same product for his/her use,he/she will need to make a purchase using the referring affiliate link.Thereafter,he/she may sign up to promote the product if so desired. I don't think the referring affiliate will lose in any way if the payment processor is a good one.

                Also, with some cookies lasting up to 30 days or more, it can only be beneficial to the referring affiliates.Nothing to lose
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              • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
                Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                The problem is that some merchants feel that the only way to recruit affiliates - is on the sales page of the product, itself.



                Simple - totally separate your sales efforts from your affiliate recruitment efforts.

                Don't even put a link to your affiliate sign up page at the bottom of your sales letter. It doesn't belong there! (using the 2nd post in a WSO thread for this purpose has the same problems)

                It's a "leak" and I can't think of a quicker way to get an affiliate to ignore your product, than to invite sales page visitors (the traffic that affiliates send to your sales page) into your affiliate program.
                Thank you!

                Recruit affiliate on your download page, within the product itself. or in
                a follow-up email.

                Son't distract customers that your affiliates have worked hard to send
                to that sales page selling them on the affiliate opportunity instead.

                Given that most people who sign up as affiliates do nothing, I think that
                it's very short-sighted to have leakage that kills sales for the
                affiliate who DOES go out and drive traffic to your offers.

                </rant>
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  • Profile picture of the author mindreaderwriter
    Banned
    PayPal isn't cracking down WSOs. I have been using my PayPal account for several years. There is this one time when they informed me that they needed to verify that I am really am. So what? That's for my own security, too.

    The rule of thumb is so simple: You're not welcome to anybody else's house if don't concur to the owner's house rules. Follow PayPal's TOS. Be a law-abiding IMer, not a law-avoiding one.

    Don't make things complicated. Don't over-analyze why PayPal is doing this, or you'll get stuck into what they call analysis-paralysis.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by mindreaderwriter View Post

      PayPal isn't cracking down WSOs. I have been using my PayPal account for several years.
      Have you been using that PayPal account to run WSOs for several years? Otherwise, I don't see how those two statements connect.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    CDarklock which is why policing our own shows taking responsibility on our own.
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  • Profile picture of the author sfx1971
    I know a lot of WSO product creators who are ditching paypal in favor of merchant accounts such as dwolla.com. Sadly they only operate,in the US at the moment.


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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Barrs
    Originally Posted by WillR View Post

    That means no upsells or OTO's immediately after people purchase. That means selling tangible items like software and plugins rather than 'how to' courses. That means no BIG rush of money into your Paypal account.

    Do any of those things above and you're only asking for trouble.
    Will, I have to disagree when it comes to software / plugins rather than "how to" courses... all I do is "how to". I don't do *any* software of any sort. I'm not sure that the product type has any relevance at all.

    I had a 'glitch' with PayPal after my first WSO... and sure,m they wondered why I had a sharp influx of low ticket sales - wouldn't anyone? It took a day or three to have the mater investigated and the problem was solved.

    Personally I'd like to see a lot of WSO's get shut down - but that's got nothing to do with WF or PayPal, I'm just sick of people being able to sell crap.

    However... I'm off track... how about we go back to the golden idea that the first click is "buy", the second is the 'upsell offer' (note they havn't actually bought the product yet, just clicked 'buy' which immediately took them to OTO), then they have two choices, OTO + OP YES or NO OTO OP ONLY - click to the merchant checkout.

    OTO - One time offer
    OP - Original purchase.

    They way there is only one transaction made.

    And if you really want to do it properly, make your Step One a subscribe form...

    Will they all subscribe? Hell no. Which means you won't get the sale either. But seriously, they were just curious, they would have probably refunded anyway.

    I don't like people like that on my list.

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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Paul,

      Seriously, what would you know, you are from Queensland Yes, that was a joke. But tomorrow night I will be on your side for the Origin. Never been a hometown supporter.

      Anyway, back to the point of this post...

      Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

      Will, I have to disagree when it comes to software / plugins rather than "how to" courses... all I do is "how to". I don't do *any* software of any sort. I'm not sure that the product type has any relevance at all.
      One of the things Paypal openly admitted to hating on the famous and recent Anthony Aires Paypal call, was these products that teach others how to make money. You buy a product, it teaches you how to create a product that you can then go and sell to others.. and on and on it goes. Paypal sees this as a never-ending loop where no one actually receives any tangible value for the money they are spending.

      If you buy a piece of software, a plugin, a template, etc immediately you have received something of value for your money. With a lot of how-to courses the value is not in the actual information but what, if anything, you end up doing with that information. This scares Paypal and it is why they don't like those kinds of products.

      If no one is receiving any tangible value for the money they are spending then it leaves Paypal in a very risky position, potentially leaving themselves open a to a lot of disputes and refunds. Sure, it might not happen this way but the fact it could is enough for Paypal to hate the business model... and they do.

      Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

      However... I'm off track... how about we go back to the golden idea that the first click is "buy", the second is the 'upsell offer' (note they havn't actually bought the product yet, just clicked 'buy' which immediately took them to OTO), then they have two choices, OTO + OP YES or NO OTO OP ONLY - click to the merchant checkout.

      OTO - One time offer
      OP - Original purchase.

      They way there is only one transaction made.
      I was actually going to come back and mention this so glad you did. Yes, rather than having two separate and small transactions one after another, a more sensible thing to do would be collect payment only once after all options (upsells, oto's) have been selected.

      Most marketers won't like to do this because it will result in fewer conversions. But I also bet a lot of those same marketers wouldn't like to be without their Paypal account either. You can't have that cake and eat it too.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by WillR View Post

        One of the things Paypal openly admitted to hating on the famous and recent Anthony Aires Paypal call, was these products that teach others how to make money.
        I would like to say quite emphatically that MOST OF US DO NOT ACTUALLY TEACH THIS, EVEN IF IT IS WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE TEACHING.

        Colin Theriot likes to talk about feature-benefit-advantage. Making money is usually the advantage. What we are selling is the benefit. And what you get is the feature.

        Consider Zombie Blogging:

        Learn to make AdSense blogs quickly -> you can make lots of AdSense blogs -> you make money.

        Consider Automatic Product Cash:

        Learn to turn your ideas into products -> you can make products and sell them -> you make money.

        Consider Instant Product Copycat:

        Learn to legally and ethically copy other products -> you can make more products in less time -> you make money.

        How about .357 Article Method:

        Learn to write articles -> you can write articles -> you hire fewer writers OR sell your article writing services -> you save OR make money.

        At no point am I selling "make money." What I'm selling is "use what I teach." It's a sad commentary that I can't sell "learn new stuff," because nobody wants to learn anything. So I have to skip forward, and have people imagine being at the other end where they've learned it already.

        But in no event does anyone ever get what we sell. We sell sizzle, not steak. Everyone understands that. But there is a certain line you just plain don't cross, because it directly flies in the face of reason and clearly identifies you as someone who intentionally takes advantage of gullible idiots.



        Paypal sees this as a never-ending loop where no one actually receives any tangible value for the money they are spending.
        There are details to that.

        Anthony Aires was selling a product about affiliate marketing... which had an affiliate program (I do not know the commission percentage). And part of his sales page specifically said "buy this and I'll teach you how to sell it."

        Individually, each and every one of those things is fine. In combination, they add up to something that looks very much like an illegal pyramid scheme, so they locked his account for selling MLM products.

        And if you go listen to that call, he keeps saying over and over "look, it's not MLM." They invited him over and over again to say "look, this product is valuable and useful to the people who buy it," and he never did. He just kept trying to explain how it was not MLM. He didn't get it. They outright accused him of selling something that didn't work and never made anybody any money, and all he said was "but it's not MLM." Never that his product actually worked and really had made people money. And that was his major failure.

        I understand why. They said "closed because your product is MLM." He wanted to address the "because." He had tunnel vision on the problem. But PayPal forbids MLM because it's hard to distinguish from an illegal pyramid scheme, which is illegal because the product has no value. He didn't trace the chain back to the source. He was focused on the words, not the intent.

        With a lot of how-to courses the value is not in the actual information but what, if anything, you end up doing with that information. This scares Paypal and it is why they don't like those kinds of products.
        Wrong.

        With a lot of how-to courses, the vendor stands to further profit from your use of the information. There's a conflict of interest, because what he teaches you impacts his bottom line in the future. (MLM always has this problem, incidentally.)

        PayPal do, funnily enough, consider the gestalt of your marketing funnel. And here's a common one they don't understand.

        Crap you can buy -> 100% commission -> how to sell that same crap

        Wait, what? Let's trace the chain here.

        Buy this crap for $10. Then read it, and it will teach you how to sell that crap yourself. And when you sell it, you'll get $10.

        Diagram this out. Go ahead. Start tracing the money and where it goes. Start considering number of prospects and customers and conversions. What is this picture you are drawing? What does it look like?

        A pyramid!

        Do you know what happens at the bottom of the pyramid? Nothing! If you're on the bottom row of the pyramid, you will be a dork and not make any money. You still paid your $10 to the guy above you, so you kind of take it in the shorts.

        This is exactly how an illegal pyramid scheme works.

        It remains to be seen whether the courts would agree that it is, in fact, an illegal pyramid scheme. But PayPal are not taking chances.

        a more sensible thing to do would be collect payment only once after all options (upsells, oto's) have been selected.
        Absolutely. I have always recommended this. We agree 100% on that.
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post

      Will, I have to disagree when it comes to software / plugins rather than "how to" courses... all I do is "how to". I don't do *any* software of any sort. I'm not sure that the product type has any relevance at all.

      I had a 'glitch' with PayPal after my first WSO... and sure,m they wondered why I had a sharp influx of low ticket sales - wouldn't anyone? It took a day or three to have the mater investigated and the problem was solved.

      Personally I'd like to see a lot of WSO's get shut down - but that's got nothing to do with WF or PayPal, I'm just sick of people being able to sell crap.

      However... I'm off track... how about we go back to the golden idea that the first click is "buy", the second is the 'upsell offer' (note they havn't actually bought the product yet, just clicked 'buy' which immediately took them to OTO), then they have two choices, OTO + OP YES or NO OTO OP ONLY - click to the merchant checkout.

      OTO - One time offer
      OP - Original purchase.

      They way there is only one transaction made.

      And if you really want to do it properly, make your Step One a subscribe form...

      Will they all subscribe? Hell no. Which means you won't get the sale either. But seriously, they were just curious, they would have probably refunded anyway.

      I don't like people like that on my list.

      Paul Barrs
      Hm. Maybe another solution? Possibly?

      Have a product. No OTO.

      But a few days later - after they've had a chance to digest the material - send something else that's related and helpful?

      My first thought is send send an offer of a live training or something that expands on the original offer. It's not necessary for the offer to work, but some people will like the extra help.

      Conversions would go down, yes. But it might make for a better customer relationship long-term?

      JMHO and YMMV
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      • Profile picture of the author ronr
        I like this idea myself and have often been bothered getting hit up with an OTO when I don't even know if my initial purchase is any good.

        But I doubt this will happen because studies show when we buy something we far more likely to buy more at that moment.

        "Would you like fries with your meal?"

        Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

        Hm. Maybe another solution? Possibly?

        Have a product. No OTO.

        But a few days later - after they've had a chance to digest the material - send something else that's related and helpful?

        My first thought is send send an offer of a live training or something that expands on the original offer. It's not necessary for the offer to work, but some people will like the extra help.

        Conversions would go down, yes. But it might make for a better customer relationship long-term?

        JMHO and YMMV
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  • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
    I have been using paypal successfully for a few years. This is what I have done:

    1. Business account in business name with fed tax payer ID for a c-corp.
    2. I do not grant automatic refunds for anyone that files a dispute. If it is a case where the buyer is in the wrong, I send paypal all evidence, emails to include screenshots. Paypal looks down on vendors that aimlessly give in to any/every dispute - it just makes you look like you were wrong to begin with.
    3. Any refund processed, I make sure to add notes to the transaction.
    4. Any suspicious customers, I have personally called Paypal about in advance
    Ie; Customer purchasing the same product a 2nd time after they wanted a refund
    for the first transaction, and only purchasing again to regain access they thought they wouldn't have lossed after refunding originally.

    Vendors need to scrutinize transactions and never blindly just accept payments. WSO's seem to have a larger rate of odd customer behavior than customers directly from my website so be sure to always screenshot/save evidence when dealing with customers you have that characteristic of asking for a refund 10 seconds after they hit a download page. Keep track of all support tickets incase they try to claim they were never helped as well (provided you did actually help them) etc

    Those are just some of things I do and I have steadily processed 20-30k per month just in Paypal transactions.
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    • Profile picture of the author JST3P
      Hi, I'm a noob and this is my first post, so arm the flame throwers!

      Luckily, this is my area of expertise. (Of course, I am only speaking for myself and from my own knowledge, not on behalf of any other business or entity)

      Originally Posted by Matthew Iannotti View Post

      I have been using paypal successfully for a few years. This is what I have done:

      1. Business account in business name with fed tax payer ID for a c-corp.
      2. I do not grant automatic refunds for anyone that files a dispute. If it is a case where the buyer is in the wrong, I send paypal all evidence, emails to include screenshots. Paypal looks down on vendors that aimlessly give in to any/every dispute - it just makes you look like you were wrong to begin with.
      This simply is not true. PP does look down on sellers who DON'T resolve disputes and claims, or make no effort to do so. There are large businesses (both IM related and not) with PP accts that will auto-refund every dispute, regardless of the fact that they don't have to by PP policy as intangible items are not covered for buyer or seller protection. I'm talking about big names you all know, some you've seen TV commercials for, but I won't name them as that would be a violation of their privacy.

      3. Any refund processed, I make sure to add notes to the transaction.
      4. Any suspicious customers, I have personally called Paypal about in advance
      Ie; Customer purchasing the same product a 2nd time after they wanted a refund
      for the first transaction, and only purchasing again to regain access they thought they wouldn't have lossed after refunding originally.

      Vendors need to scrutinize transactions and never blindly just accept payments. WSO's seem to have a larger rate of odd customer behavior than customers directly from my website so be sure to always screenshot/save evidence when dealing with customers you have that characteristic of asking for a refund 10 seconds after they hit a download page. Keep track of all support tickets incase they try to claim they were never helped as well (provided you did actually help them) etc

      Those are just some of things I do and I have steadily processed 20-30k per month just in Paypal transactions.
      There are a few things that will set off the alarms, and I'm going to continue reading the PP related threads here on WF so i can gauge where the community feeling is regarding them. As I mentioned, this is my area of expertise so I'm looking to create some guides or some type of platform for specifically IM folks to come to with their PP related concerns or need to know what to do be make sure their PP acct stays in good standing.

      (This is tricky, so I'm not rushing into it. There's a fine line between teaching someone how to safeguard their acct and teaching them how to circumvent fraud prevention methods.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    Could be a coincidence, but I recently got an email from PayPal. It was a survey, "with a chance to win $1000" in a random drawing from people who have filled it out.

    I started answering the questions, after verifying the link was actually from paypal.

    One of the first couple questions asked if I authorised a purchase a couple days ago. Once I saw that, and the next question was asking for detail in a text box, I closed the survey.

    that got me thinking that purchasing the warroom membership, and I also got suckered into purchasing OptimisePress.

    Im positive one of those two purchases flagged something in paypal. I've had my paypal account for close to 10 years, and never received anything like that.

    After I aborted the survey, which was two days after the two purchases mentioned, the transaction finally appeared in my bank account.

    I'd be curious to know how many disputed transactions OptimisePress has. My thought is that when people buy into that, they regret it shortly thereafter. Thats may be why paypal tried to confirm that transaction.
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    • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
      Originally Posted by Rbtmarshall View Post

      Could be a coincidence, but I recently got an email from PayPal. It was a survey, "with a chance to win $1000" in a random drawing from people who have filled it out.

      I started answering the questions, after verifying the link was actually from paypal.

      One of the first couple questions asked if I authorised a purchase a couple days ago. Once I saw that, and the next question was asking for detail in a text box, I closed the survey.

      that got me thinking that purchasing the warroom membership, and I also got suckered into purchasing OptimisePress.

      Im positive one of those two purchases flagged something in paypal. I've had my paypal account for close to 10 years, and never received anything like that.

      After I aborted the survey, which was two days after the two purchases mentioned, the transaction finally appeared in my bank account.

      I'd be curious to know how many disputed transactions OptimisePress has. My thought is that when people buy into that, they regret it shortly thereafter. Thats may be why paypal tried to confirm that transaction.
      Optimizepress is good stuff. If they did have any large number of disputes, I guarantee it probably is/was fraudulent transactions.

      I had my paypal account hacked one time 2 years ago. Somebody bought a Victoria Secret Giftcard from Ebay. Since than, I have a keycode that is issues with by paypal, and anytime I sign in, I must press my card and generate a new code on the spot at the time of log in.
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  • Profile picture of the author JeremTheMarketer
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Matthew Iannotti
      Originally Posted by Richard Rahl View Post

      Seems like paypal is having issue with a lot of ppl these days.
      Ya better's have a merchant account IE; paymentech from chase etc to go along with paypal. I would never ever ever ever use paypal only.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Before anyone thinks that Jenn Dize's issues with PayPal actually reflect on using PP at the Warrior Forum, you should know that her account was reinstated and they told her that it was a MISTAKE.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    Well this thread kicked up some awesome viewpoints and sigs to great products! We have some big brains around who are ethical. Can't get better than that.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Im positive one of those two purchases flagged something in paypal.
    You would be wrong.

    I get those often. On an account I hardly use, they send me one almost every time I make a purchase with it.

    -g
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  • Profile picture of the author Chronic IM
    Hello!

    Using paypal with WSO's is fine as long as you'd be very careful. I'm not saying it's bad, but at least watch out. just play by their rules and I mean THEIR rules. I hope that helped you in a way or so.

    Best of Luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author AmandaT
    Rather than quote it, I'm just going to say you should read this post from above.

    That is the biggest problem PayPal is having. "Buy my product and learn how to sell my product to make money."

    I recently called PayPal because I was thinking about posting a WSO. They didn't really have much to say on the topic besides read the ToS but they did mention one of the issues they have is how so many sellers advertise their affiliate program in the sales copy and all over in their tread. "You can promote this product to make money!" should not be a selling point for your product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by AmandaT View Post

      they did mention one of the issues they have is how so many sellers advertise their affiliate program in the sales copy and all over in their tread. "You can promote this product to make money!" should not be a selling point for your product.
      As Tina mentioned, this is not a new thing for them. IIRC, they shut down quite a number of accounts that were using the $7 Secrets script because it pushed the affiliate program offer for customers, before they bought the product.

      It had nothing to do with the commission structure, and everything to do with the appearance of selling an opportunity to sell the product.


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  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
    Hi everyone,

    I hadn't posted about my situation here, because it definitely wouldn't have been fair to Allen and the members of this forum if I had, especially before it was resolved with PayPal.

    I am not into promoting hysteria

    I also want to make sure the email that was posted is taken in context -- it was sent to my list after a rough day of trying to get answers from PayPal; not posted here, by me.

    Please be extra-clear about this part of my email: -I asked very specifically about the Warrior Forum -- There are "bad eggs" there, they admit, but there are no problems, at all, with the forum and there is no investigation or "eye" there -- note that I am suspicious of this part <<< -- this last sentence to mean that I do believe they are viewing things like Warrior+ 100% offers (and rotating payments) suspiciously, not the forum itself (note that the offer I promoted that got flagged was NOT a 100% offer, but it was a rotating payment offer).

    I would never in a million years say that there is anything inherently wrong with selling on the Warrior Forum. It's a fantastic place with a great owner and staff. It's a great place for new and experienced marketers to learn and grow.

    Why am not I not running paid offers with PayPal right now? To be completely honest, there are some offers running here that I don't want to be associated with, especially in PayPal's eyes. My immediate thought was, "I'm done!"

    But, that would be silly. There are bad, scammy offers on eBay. There are questionable books sold on Amazon. Heck, there are questionable, underhanded things done everywhere (housing and banking industries, anyone?).

    I love the forum. It's part of where I got my start. It's helped me make a ton of connections and I've met some amazing people. The things I've learned here are priceless.

    This place, just like any other, is what you choose for it to be, for you.

    What Allen said in that other thread (regarding not having a single problem until "other" services stepped in), really sunk in for me. We have to do better and think better. The things and people we associate ourselves with matter. We do NOT have to be associated with the reputation Internet marketing is getting (often deserved).

    Many people have asked me about the "three things" I had to do before they would review my account, but it's really a non-issue. They retracted those requirements anyway. It has nothing to do with anything as it stands now, and it has nothing to do with my feelings about anything.

    My not promoting Warrior Forum offers that use PayPal or using PayPal myself on WSO's is just a personal decision, after a scare (I might change my mind next week or next year, who knows!?). I've heard it from more than one person (regarding some misinformed PayPal reps about WF and their views of digital products in general), so this is just what's right for me at this moment in time. I am investigating using Clickbank for my own Warrior Forum offers, so we'll see

    In summary: Please take the message that was intended for a small audience as it's meant to be taken -- as a follow up to a very scary and undeserved time. PayPal says there is nothing wrong with promoting on the Warrior Forum. I'm simply being cautious and diversifying my payments more...I'd done nothing wrong and was wrongly "accused." It's just a personal decision and a call for those who were aware of my situation to open their eyes to protect their business. Not a call to stop using the Warrior Forum or the great opportunities and relationships that can come from it.

    In summary part 2: Be flexible and be ready to change. Stay ethical and honest, and keep pushing forward -- with PayPal on the WF, if you'd like
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    Wow! Paul Myers chimed in! Getting more pro-level advice on this thread.

    What I've gathered so far is that the face of marketing in this area has changed for the better due to communication between PayPal and IMers. There are also alternatives to a theme and better, ethical, and efficient ways of marketing.

    Getting quite an education here!
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    It seems slowly but surely we are getting a better understanding of what Paypal like and don't like.

    I have always believed they wouldn't just dismiss a marketplace like the WSO forum because of a few bad eggs. The number of people who have had issues on the WSO forum is TINY when compared to those who have been using Paypal with no troubles whatsoever.

    Just keep reading all of these threads that pop up and adjust your offers accordingly. The big one for me from this thread is the advertising of your affiliate program on the sales page. This seems to be something that only became popularized here on the Warrior Forum of late.

    Outside of the Warrior Forum you would very rarely see such a big deal made about the affiliate program on the actual sales page. They might have a link down the very bottom of the page but it's something you wouldn't usually see unless you were specifically looking for it.

    I think a lot of people get confused on the WSO forum and seem to think their first post is their sales page. But that's not true. That whole thread is your salespage because it's what your customers look at before making a buying decision. So putting a big banner for your affiliate program in the second post doesn't mean you are not putting it on your sales page as such. You are and it's something that you just wouldn't do outside of the Warrior Forum because as Sid said (ha, that sounded funny) you are just driving sales away from your page -- it's counter productive.

    Let's face it. The affiliates you want promoting your products are smart enough to see your Warrior Plus or JVZoo buy button and go and look for your offer if they are interested in promoting it. It's probably going to do you a favor by not advertising your affiliate program so openly because you'll only end up with the serious affiliates who take the time to track down your product and request to promote it.

    So maybe it's time for a blanket rule, I say. No promotion of affiliate programs in any WSO sales thread submitted from here on in. What do the powers at be have to say about that? It would level out the playing field and rid the forum of at least one thing we KNOW Paypal take issue with. I don't see any reason why it should be allowed anymore, given what we know.
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    • Profile picture of the author roadcred
      I notice that the ads for affiliate progs on the sales page normally are for promoting on JVZoo and other outside platforms....presumably as affiliates find it difficult to find these opportunities....
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    • Profile picture of the author Anthoni
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Let's face it. The affiliates you want promoting your products are smart enough to see your Warrior Plus or JVZoo buy button and go and look for your offer if they are interested in promoting it. It's probably going to do you a favor by not advertising your affiliate program so openly because you'll only end up with the serious affiliates who take the time to track down your product and request to promote it.
      Very excellently put there. We only want serious, dedicated people and hopefully that will 'weed out the chaff' so to speak.

      There's been a lot of bad-mouthing of WSO's of late (more than usual) and I was wondering what was causing it.

      Regards
      Anthoni
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    • Profile picture of the author digesource
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      So maybe it's time for a blanket rule, I say. No promotion of affiliate programs in any WSO sales thread submitted from here on in. What do the powers at be have to say about that? It would level out the playing field and rid the forum of at least one thing we KNOW Paypal take issue with. I don't see any reason why it should be allowed anymore, given what we know.

      I have one little comment to say about this. I realize I'm not well known, or considered an authority on anything here yet, and I'm not all hung up on being an authority on anything anyway. I personally feel I have a lot to learn. I am excited to be a part of the Warrior forum, and I have bought a lot of WSOs and will continue to do so, because frankly, I love how you guys/gals get my buying juices going. I love a good sales pitch, and most everyone here knows how to do it! You might hear from me in the future on one, who knows.

      With all that being said, my little comment is this: I realize we don't want to inhibit integration with Paypal or other good sources anywhere, HOWEVER.., I just recently became disappointed because I wanted to refer a WSO to someone on another forum website who needed an answer to a problem, and I could tell it was a perfect match for him. Guess what?.. I could not find the link to the affiliate offer for it.

      Don't ask me what it was because I don't recall right now. I was there briefly and then gone. When I came across this guy's plea for help, I went scanning through a WSO I had recently read, and could not find the affiliate link. Out of frustration, because my time is important to me, I left the whole website and the WSO and moved on to other things I am working on.

      The moral of this story.., if I'm following what's going on here, is that I now believe that there ought to be some kind of standardized link or area built into WSO's, that is Paypal compliant of course, where a WSO owner can put their affiliate program.

      Just my beginner 2 cents.

      Darin Walker
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Will,
    So maybe it's time for a blanket rule, I say. No promotion of affiliate programs in any WSO sales thread submitted from here on in. What do the powers at be have to say about that? It would level out the playing field and rid the forum of at least one thing we KNOW Paypal take issue with. I don't see any reason why it should be allowed anymore, given what we know.
    THAT is an excellent thought. I'll bring that one up to Allen.

    Thanks. Obvious, but we totally missed it. This sort of thing is why we often let the discussions that start out bad-mouthing WSOs run for a while. We know that someone will come up with an idea once in a while that we haven't heard yet, or that we should have considered but just missed in the chaos.


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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Will,THAT is an excellent thought. I'll bring that one up to Allen.

      Thanks. Obvious, but we totally missed it. This sort of thing is why we often let the discussions that start out bad-mouthing WSOs run for a while. We know that someone will come up with an idea once in a while that we haven't heard yet, or that we should have considered but just missed in the chaos.

      Paul
      I've actually never used it before (stumbled upon it myself the other day) but this could also be a good time to encourage people back over to using the section that was created specifically for affiliate program announcements...

      Affiliate Program Database
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Will,

        As soon as we even mention that, people will start howling about how we took something away just to squeeze some extra money from them. Doesn't matter that the goal is to help them avoid Paypal issues, or that their prospective affiliates can get the info from the relevant platform without needing an ad in the affiliate center.

        That would be an excellent place to advertise a program for a product AFTER a WSO had run its course, assuming the product has value enough to stand on its own in the broader market. I don't see a real need for it for a WSO, though.


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        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Encouragement shouldn't be necessary, Paul.

          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          As soon as we even mention that, people will start howling about how we took something away just to squeeze some extra money from them. Doesn't matter that the goal is to help them avoid Paypal issues, or that their prospective affiliates can get the info from the relevant platform without needing an ad in the affiliate center.

          That would be an excellent place to advertise a program for a product AFTER a WSO had run its course, assuming the product has value enough to stand on its own in the broader market. I don't see a real need for it for a WSO, though.
          Affiliate recruitment is a separate function for the seller. Each WSO seller has (and has always had) the option to recruit affiliates via paid advertising in the appropriate section of the Warrior Forum, or off site.

          They can decide for themselves whether that additional cost is worthwhile for them... or not. It's a business decision for them, plain and simple.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Brian,
            We would certainly be on board for this, but there is not much the affiliate networks can do to make it happen, other than tell members that it is not allowed.
            I'm pretty sure there is more you could do, but enforcing your policies is your business, not ours.

            Sid,
            Affiliate recruitment is a separate function for the seller.
            It should be, certainly. I suspect there will be even more networks set up than exist already for recruiting WSO affiliates, if Allen decides this is the way to go. One would hope they encourage people to create and sell products that have appeal and value for the greater market, rather than most of the "Made for WSO" stuff, which is where people seem to have the most complaints.

            I think public versions of these sorts of networks would be useful no matter what Allen decides. There are plenty of private ones, via Skype and Facebook and the like. Public ones might prove very handy for known, but less well-established, sellers.


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    • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Will,THAT is an excellent thought. I'll bring that one up to Allen.

      Thanks. Obvious, but we totally missed it. This sort of thing is why we often let the discussions that start out bad-mouthing WSOs run for a while. We know that someone will come up with an idea once in a while that we haven't heard yet, or that we should have considered but just missed in the chaos.


      Paul
      Start out "badmouthing WSOs"?
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

        Start out "badmouthing WSOs"?
        That wasn't referring to this thread.

        We've often let threads run a bit that some folks think shouldn't, including some of the "WSO's Suck!" threads. Really, they ought to be deleted on sight, but they do have occasional redeeming benefits. Not very often, but sometimes. The hope is that someone will come up with practical ideas that could make the section better, which is a very rare thing. But, it's just happened here.

        Previous ones we hadn't considered but were useful have made a big difference. Like removing signatures, and not counting posts in that part of the board. I personally think that removing all references to WSO affiliate programs in that section would have an even bigger long-term benefit for the members who sell there: Helping to reduce the temptation to do things that could get their Paypal accounts shut down.

        Those threads have also occasionally brought out people with actual problems, who didn't know to tell the mods about them. I've been able to get quite a number of them straightened out after seeing them in that kind of thread.

        It's probably true that we shouldn't allow them at all. They are overwhelmingly negative and destructive, taken on balance. But they've served some useful purposes.


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        • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I personally think that removing all references to WSO affiliate programs in that section would have an even bigger long-term benefit for the members who sell there: Helping to reduce the temptation to do things that could get their Paypal accounts shut down.
          I agree with this 100%. In fact, I have always been against people talking about their affiliate program in their WSO, even if just for the reason of commission leakage.

          As per some discussions we have had recently, Paul, this is exactly that kind of thing I was talking about. The whole "circular" issue where the offer becomes the product, etc..

          I would whole-heartedly support the idea of not allowing affiliate programs to be promoted in a WSO post. Anything I can do to help, just let me know.

          Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I personally think that removing all references to WSO affiliate programs in that section would have an even bigger long-term benefit for the members who sell there...

          Paul
          We would certainly be on board for this, but there is not much the affiliate networks can do to make it happen, other than tell members that it is not allowed. I would think the actual policing of this would have to come from those that have editorial power, i.e. the Warrior Forum mods. Either way, we are all for the rule being put into place, both on our end and here at the Warrior Forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Vendor-Lock
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Will,THAT is an excellent thought. I'll bring that one up to Allen.

      Thanks. Obvious, but we totally missed it. This sort of thing is why we often let the discussions that start out bad-mouthing WSOs run for a while. We know that someone will come up with an idea once in a while that we haven't heard yet, or that we should have considered but just missed in the chaos.


      Paul

      Hi Paul,

      I have a few questions that may come up serveral times for your guys,
      so maybe you can post the answers to this somewhere it can be seen easily.

      The new rule states " offers after May 26 2012 "

      1. Does anyone that has an older WSO with an affiliate
      promotion link in it, have to go back and edit those WSOs ?

      2. Does the new rule cover the classified ad section too ?

      3. Can we run a classified ad specifically for recruting affiliates ?

      Thanks

      Yours truly,
      Jeff Noyes

      Vendor-Lock Software co.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,

    Unless all the affiliate systems offering their products to WSO sellers do the same thing, which seems unlikely, Allen is the only one who can create a level field for the idea.

    I emailed him within minutes of seeing Will's suggestion. His call.


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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by MikeLantz View Post

      I would whole-heartedly support the idea of not allowing affiliate programs to be promoted in a WSO post. Anything I can do to help, just let me know.
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Unless all the affiliate systems offering their products to WSO sellers do the same thing, which seems unlikely, Allen is the only one who can create a level field for the idea.
      Regardless of what Allen decides, you've got my support on this too. I'm going to specifically make that a rule for merchants.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    I'd like to say thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread. The educational value, community cooperation, and sigs that 'totally rule'! You can tell this is where the movers and the shakers in the IM industry are. Gotta get some of you on our radio shows and tv shows. Or better yet we need a WF tv cast. Doesn't cost anything, maybe Allen should try it. I can show him how in 15 minutes.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    That's good to know about promoting your affiliate program from your sales page.

    I used to do that all the time with RAP products and have done it before with an offer on W+.

    Also... I respect all of your opinions and your logic about how it's pointless to promote your affiliate program on your sales page...

    But I will say that I've done really well by promoting my affiliate program on my sales page. I've picked up all kinds of great affiliates by doing it.

    Especially with RAP... by having that link at the bottom of the page I picked up 100s of affiliates.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jason,
      Especially with RAP... by having that link at the bottom of the page I picked up 100s of affiliates.
      Keep in mind that this is speculation...

      I don't believe having a link to an affiliate sign-up page mixed in with the contact and legal links on regular (non-WSO) sales pages would be a problem, if it just said "Affiliates" or "Partner program." Especially if those same links appear on your non-sales pages. The serious questions come up when you start creating the impression that the affiliate income potential is part of the purchase.

      In short, when it's part of the sales copy.


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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Jason,Keeping in mind that this is speculation...

        I don't believe having a link to an affiliate sign-up page mixed in with the contact and legal links would be a problem, if it just said "Affiliates" or "Partner program." Especially if those same links appear on your non-sales pages. The serious questions come up when you start creating the impression that the affiliate income potential is part of the purchase.

        In short, when it's part of the sales copy.


        Paul
        Aha... for example a giant graphic button that says "Affiliates Click Here" lol...

        Ya I've only done it as a link mixed in with legal form links at the bottom of a page.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Paul,

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I don't believe having a link to an affiliate sign-up page mixed in with the contact and legal links on regular (non-WSO) sales pages would be a problem, if it just said "Affiliates" or "Partner program." Especially if those same links appear on your non-sales pages. The serious questions come up when you start creating the impression that the affiliate income potential is part of the purchase.

        In short, when it's part of the sales copy.
        I don't really believe this will cause a problem with Paypal, either.

        But...
        I do still see that as a sales page leak, and never offer an affiliate sign up link on my own pages. Good affiliates will find you, if you have a contact/support link at the bottom of the page.

        Most good "help desk" systems include the "Knowledge Base" functionality, and a merchant could easily provide affiliate sign up procedures in a Knowledge Base article. If the merchant's help desk system does NOT have a Knowledge Base, the prospective affiliate can just request the information via a help desk ticket.

        There are many ways for a merchant to find/recruit affiliates - all of which are preferable to recruiting directly from the sales page (IMHO).
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Will,

          Thanks. Your suggestion has been adopted. Added to the WSO rules for advertising:

          12. For offers posted after May 26, 2012, you may not promote your affiliate program within a WSO thread. For a general explanation, see the discussion starting with this post. (Posted 5/26/2012)
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    It is fairly obvious that Paypal does not like the risk of digital products, they see refunds as problems, the fact is that digital is the future and if paypal does not want the business someone else will come in and take the business.

    Its a shame really because everywhere you look online its all about digital products from music to video and more.
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    • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

      It is fairly obvious that Paypal does not like the risk of digital products, they see refunds as problems, the fact is that digital is the future and if paypal does not want the business someone else will come in and take the business.

      Its a shame really because everywhere you look online its all about digital products from music to video and more.
      Okay you just hit the nail on the head. I've been online selling since the day the first digital got its digit and what you just said is what has always happened. Let the opportunity, the need arise and the smart person will take advantage of it and become wealthy.
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      • Profile picture of the author houseofgar
        Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

        Okay you just hit the nail on the head. I've been online selling since the day the first digital got its digit and what you just said is what has always happened. Let the opportunity, the need arise and the smart person will take advantage of it and become wealthy.
        I agree with Tim, PayPal does seem to unfairly scrutinize digital resellers and this seems odd as the internet is a digital world. I purchase and sell digital products and expect refunds as a part of the business (that is customer service). I think the warrior Forum is the best digital forum for resellers/programmers and digital product developers. I think PayPal is making a big mistake by getting in a huff over digital products.It is their loss in $$$ if they start penalizing affiliates and resellers
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        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          You seem to have misunderstood...

          Originally Posted by houseofgar View Post

          I agree with Tim, PayPal does seem to unfairly scrutinize digital resellers and this seems odd as the internet is a digital world. I purchase and sell digital products and expect refunds as a part of the business (that is customer service). I think the warrior Forum is the best digital forum for resellers/programmers and digital product developers. I think PayPal is making a big mistake by getting in a huff over digital products.It is their loss in $$$ if they start penalizing affiliates and resellers
          First, there is really nothing new in Paypal's policies with regard to digital product sales. They have never offered buyer (nor seller) protection for intangible product sales (at least not in the past 10 years).

          What has changed are:
          • more and more aggressive sales tactics (including hyped up sales copy, fake income claims, multiple upsell/downsale offers, forced optins, blind sales copy, and much much more), and
          • more strict disclosure rules in the recent FTC regulations.

          For years, we have been aware that the web is "growing" (with regard to the number of online users <prospects>), and with that comes a corresponding growth in the number of online marketers. As that population swells, the number of unprofessional product/service providers grows in direct proportion (and the problem gets bigger, still).

          Paypal is just cracking down on offenders (as are merchant accounts and other payment processors).

          Rather than complaining (since these are essential ingredients to our businesses), we would be better served to understand what they truly see as problems, and try to work within their guidelines.

          It's really not that tough.
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          • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
            Originally Posted by cofton25

            I must show my ignorance and say I was not familiar with Paymate, they look very interesting, can UK sellers use them in the UK?
            Sorry for the delay -- time zones got in the way!

            Unfortunately, PayMate operates only in the USA, Australia and New Zealand (for sellers).

            It accepts payments from buyers in these countries:
            American Samoa, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Cook Islands, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, France, French Polynesia, Germany, Greece, Guam, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Norfolk Island, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Romania, Singapore, Slovakia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Virgin Islands (US) and has a payment facility via Alipay for buyers in China.

            It has comprehensive web sites at home | Paymate - Online payment service - sell online, buy online and http://paymate.com.au.

            Its security is much tighter than PayPal, and it also offers mobile payments, including VPOS.
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            • Profile picture of the author cofton25
              Thank you. Due to the growing disatisfaction with Paypal it would be great for Paymate to enter into Europe and offer sellers a much needed alternative.... hopefully sooner rather than later

              Originally Posted by profitclinic View Post

              Sorry for the delay -- time zones got in the way!

              Unfortunately, PayMate operates only in the USA, Australia and New Zealand (for sellers).

              It accepts payments from buyers in these countries:
              American Samoa, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Cook Islands, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, France, French Polynesia, Germany, Greece, Guam, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Norfolk Island, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Romania, Singapore, Slovakia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Virgin Islands (US) and has a payment facility via Alipay for buyers in China.

              It has comprehensive web sites at home | Paymate - Online payment service - sell online, buy online and http://paymate.com.au.

              Its security is much tighter than PayPal, and it also offers mobile payments, including VPOS.
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              • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
                Originally Posted by cofton25 View Post

                Thank you. Due to the growing disatisfaction with Paypal it would be great for Paymate to enter into Europe and offer sellers a much needed alternative.... hopefully sooner rather than later
                I can't answer for PayMate, but I suspect (from past comments they've made) that the Asia-Pacific is their chosen market place. Apart from the dubious state of the EU economy and currency, its excessive bureaucracy and "nanny state" mentality would be enough to give any payment processor good reason for a super-cautious approach.
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                • Profile picture of the author cofton25
                  Cant argue with that, maybe PayMate are right to keep out of Europe for the time being then

                  Originally Posted by profitclinic View Post

                  I can't answer for PayMate, but I suspect (from past comments they've made) that the Asia-Pacific is their chosen market place. Apart from the dubious state of the EU economy and currency, its excessive bureaucracy and "nanny state" mentality would be enough to give any payment processor good reason for a super-cautious approach.
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          • Profile picture of the author JST3P
            Great points, Sid. Thank you!

            PP doesn't have any special interest in shutting down digital products. As we know, that would include iTunes, Kindle, every digital product (ebook, video, mp3, etc) available through any venue... Obviously they have nothing to gain by being "against" these things as they stand.

            The only digital products that are of any concern are those that violate the AUP, and any of these products can violate the AUP whether they are delivered electronically or via mail on a CD.

            When it comes to IM, I think the main thing is to avoid selling things that are MLM, get rich quick or pyramid schemes. Usually this is where someone would reasonably conclude that "the pitch is the product" and the buyer is not receiving anything except the opportunity or permission to resell the same thing they bought to multiple other people.

            Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

            You seem to have misunderstood...



            First, there is really nothing new in Paypal's policies with regard to digital product sales. They have never offered buyer (nor seller) protection for intangible product sales (at least not in the past 10 years).

            What has changed are:
            • more and more aggressive sales tactics (including hyped up sales copy, fake income claims, multiple upsell/downsale offers, forced optins, blind sales copy, and much much more), and
            • more strict disclosure rules in the recent FTC regulations.

            For years, we have been aware that the web is "growing" (with regard to the number of online users <prospects>), and with that comes a corresponding growth in the number of online marketers. As that population swells, the number unprofessional product/service providers grows in direct proportion (and the problem gets bigger, still).

            Paypal is just cracking down on offenders (as are merchant accounts and other payment processors).

            Rather than complaining (since these are essential ingredients to our businesses), we would be better served to understand what they truly see as problems, and try to work within their guidelines.

            It's really not that tough.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      ???

      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

      It is fairly obvious that Paypal does not like the risk of digital products, they see refunds as problems, the fact is that digital is the future and if paypal does not want the business someone else will come in and take the business.

      Its a shame really because everywhere you look online its all about digital products from music to video and more.
      Paypal minimizes their risk on intangible products (i.e. digital downloads) by offering no buyer protection for such purchases.

      In other words, Paypal offers buyer protection for the purchase of physical goods, whereas the only guarantee for an intangible product must be offered by the merchant. They apparently understand the risk in processing payments for intangibles (have for years), and manage that risk by withholding the buyer protection.

      Yes, they see refunds as a problem... but for all products, whether physical or not. It comes with the territory.

      Typically, if a buyer files a Paypal dispute on the purchase of an intangible, the seller MUST respond to the dispute - but pointing out to Paypal that their own policy provides NO buyer protection is typically sufficient for getting Paypal to side with the seller and to dismiss the buyer's dispute.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim Dini
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        Paypal minimizes their risk on intangible products (i.e. digital downloads) by offering no buyer protection for such purchases... but pointing out to Paypal that their own policy provides NO buyer protection is typically sufficient for getting Paypal to side with the seller and to dismiss the buyer's dispute.
        True, but now crummy sellers are taking advantage of this Paypal policy by selling junk, and still getting paid.

        When a buyer disputes an intangible transaction, the seller no longer needs to 'discuss' the dispute with the buyer. The seller simply escalates the claim right away, and reminds Paypal of this policy.

        Paypal now has an 'automatic' response message set up to cater to these type of escalations. It's a form email that tells the buyer that the dispute falls under their intangible product policy. Paypal doesn't look at the dispute at all!

        In order to re-open a valid case, the buyer must call Paypal by telephone and tell them that the transaction was fraudulent or violates the seller terms of agreement in some way. Then Paypal will re-open the case from within their fraud division, and actually look at the dispute.
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      • Profile picture of the author SpeedyeProducts
        The [post] by PM is a VERY real and accurate statement of information that should be considered.
        IMHO, I preface my remarks in that the intent(s) expressed are being made to be taken for
        constructive purposes only.

        Personally, I have had this exact discussion with Paypal. Paypal will deny a buyer refund request
        specifically when a seller makes the intangible product statement [ie. TOS regarding Paypal] in
        response to a buyer refund request. So, YES the seller is protected but the buyer IS NOT protected
        which was in some cases why the buyer used Paypal to buy with. They are not clear on this "small"
        caveat and do not realize they may be at the mercy of a seller being "honorable" with regard
        to a "GUARANTEE" of refund if not satisfied on the product purchase.

        In reality, [tongue in cheek comment], the seller can promise to pay off the kids college education
        and cap your teeth for life and never have to honor such a "guarantee" under the Paypal TOS
        since the product being purchased is an intangible product therefore not refundable by the
        seller if the purchase is made via Paypal if the seller decides to operate in this manner.

        Obviously, Paypal benefits from the perception in the marketplace that the buyer is "protected"
        if they use paypal when purchasing. In reality, this only amounts to physical products not digital
        and really is reference to the "security" of the buyers purchasing information not being
        compromised during the sales process.

        The problem is unscrupulous sellers are using this model to take the money and
        run. Their digital product(s) do fail sometimes from the onset and/or not updated
        or the teeth never will get capped and my child will never go to college.

        It is a matter of time before this model gets exploited in a larger fashion
        and taint the seller(s) who use Paypal. That was the crux of my conversation with
        Paypal which is I think the fear for lack of better words that the OP mentioned.

        This is in my estimation a "real" concern and I realize taking out -- promotion or "insinuation"
        of profitable gains [within a sales page] if a person joins as an affiliate -- is a step in the right direction,
        but it isn't going to solve entirely the non-refundable digital product sale from an unscrupulous seller
        "out there" which is ultimately how all sellers get measured in the marketplace. In other words
        we are all alike. I am sure many people have had the pleasure of Google indicating
        with their recent "updates" [to protect ' their ' customer experience] by lopping many IM'ers
        websites or accounts into the negative ranking category or worse closing the account due to
        such a "all them IM'ers are duh same mentality".

        Paypal sends out the denial of refund notice to their client who used Paypal to buy yet they
        are not the seller but 'only' the conduit for payment.
        Essentially, they have no business making such a decision
        BUT have to deny the refund request to a buyer when intangible product is invoked by
        the seller as a part of the Paypal TOS. As the OP basically stated, have eggs in
        other baskets too in regard to payment for digital services.

        This is a real issue albeit not Huge [yet] and a buyer will be PO'd [that's what I hear].
        For those of us who sell digital products and especially mobile services,
        this is a problem in the digital realm if Paypal were to be the "only" payment system in
        place as a seller or vendor of services.

        Paypal does not review any Seller TOS as far as it is related to seller product
        guarantees nor does it ask about the seller honoring such an offer of refund
        therefore a seller can essentially say whatever to get the sale and not
        have to live up to the guarantee. This is great for a seller of products actually
        but it can backfire on honest sellers if a buyer does not feel protected in
        their purchase(s) from a seller if Paypal is a payment option.
        [ie] perception that -- anyone using paypal to buy with may not get a
        refund if a problem with this digital product or service occurs].

        Sights that offer no feedback on the sellers or contact vehicles for buyers to contact the
        Portal that allows such a vendor [seller] are really a culprit to feeding this
        negative opportunity to taint honest sellers. Thankfully, WF does offer this to buyers and
        sellers equally. Also, as sellers, honoring the offer of a guarantee if offered should be
        "honored" or not offered since it too can be "used" as a SALES tactic and the buyer(s)
        should also honor that if the product operated as offered, a refund is not possible for a
        digital product. Therein is an issue to be reconciled.

        A real digital product payment solution that protects BOTH the buyer and the seller
        equally is needed in addition to monitoring or reviewing of the sellers offer of "guarantee"
        of refund regardless of being a digital product.

        Perhaps there is such a payment option and I am plainly ignorant. In that case as Roseanna
        Danna says then --->>> Never Mind.


        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        ???



        Paypal minimizes their risk on intangible products (i.e. digital downloads) by offering no buyer protection for such purchases.

        In other words, Paypal offers buyer protection for the purchase of physical goods, whereas the only guarantee for an intangible product must be offered by the merchant. They apparently understand the risk in processing payments for intangibles (have for years), and manage that risk by withholding the buyer protection.

        Yes, they see refunds as a problem... but for all products, whether physical or not. It comes with the territory.

        Typically, if a buyer files a Paypal dispute on the purchase of an intangible, the seller MUST respond to the dispute - but pointing out to Paypal that their own policy provides NO buyer protection is typically sufficient for getting Paypal to side with the seller and to dismiss the buyer's dispute.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          RC,

          Tell you a little secret: We ban people who fail to honor a posted refund policy.

          Well, okay. It's not a secret.

          As for Paypal, they expect sellers to honor their posted policies, and I suspect they'd take action against sellers with a pattern of that kind of fraud. It would surprise me a lot if they didn't.

          Speculation: They probably operate on the same rule we have here... If there's no posted refund policy, you should assume the seller doesn't do refunds, and adjust your decision-making process accordingly.

          It is possible they don't check salespages to verify the existence of a policy. I wouldn't be surprised if that was missed, if only due to time constraints. If a refund policy was stated, it would probably be a good idea to include a link to the page involved, along with a quote of the policy, with any complaint to them about a failure to do as promised.

          Make it easy for them to help you.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
            With all the negative things that we're all talking about Facebook, I thought I'd share something that was shared with me just this past weekend at a cookout where I met another internet marketer.

            In January of this year, he saw $24,800 roll into his PayPal account. However, in a few days, PayPal froze his account. FYI, he knew the money was not his or didn't have any reason to believe it was.

            February, more money rolled in to the tune of about $28,000. March - same thing to give him about $90,000 in his PayPal account. However, he couldn't access any of it because his account was frozen.

            One day, he got a cell phone call at work from a PayPal representative. The representative jokingly said, "I'll bet you've been wondering about all this money in your account, haven't you?" He responded with , "No, not really." They laughed a moment and then the PayPal rep explained that another entity had been running a campaign and when they put their information in, there was ONE digit input incorrectly, which made the promotion pay his PayPal account rather than the actual entity.

            The rep informed him that they would be reversing the money and correctly crediting it.

            I tell this so that everyone will also think about the possibility that occasionally, a PayPal freeze may be for a legitimate reason - and it may not be just because a lot of money is suddenly coming into your account. In this case, PayPal was actually doing an excellent job of making sure the right person gets paid.

            Anyone that knows me well (and there are very few on the WF that can say they do), know that I really don't like PayPal (as you've probably seen from some of my previous posts) because they operate at their whim. In the same breath, I like them because buyers like and trust them, so that makes sales that may not occur otherwise. But, this gave me a little better feeling about them. Hope it does the same for you.

            JDD
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            • Profile picture of the author cofton25
              From a buyers point of view I like them.... from a sellers point of view I think they are a bag of sh*t ..... but they have done a great marketing campaign for longer than I can remember. They have their place but there is better out there, the only problem is the better ones out there don't have the resources and finance to compete in the tough world of marketing exposure. One day the tide will turn :-)

              Originally Posted by jimbo3891 View Post

              With all the negative things that we're all talking about Facebook, I thought I'd share something that was shared with me just this past weekend at a cookout where I met another internet marketer.

              In January of this year, he saw $24,800 roll into his PayPal account. However, in a few days, PayPal froze his account. FYI, he knew the money was not his or didn't have any reason to believe it was.

              February, more money rolled in to the tune of about $28,000. March - same thing to give him about $90,000 in his PayPal account. However, he couldn't access any of it because his account was frozen.

              One day, he got a cell phone call at work from a PayPal representative. The representative jokingly said, "I'll bet you've been wondering about all this money in your account, haven't you?" He responded with , "No, not really." They laughed a moment and then the PayPal rep explained that another entity had been running a campaign and when they put their information in, there was ONE digit input incorrectly, which made the promotion pay his PayPal account rather than the actual entity.

              The rep informed him that they would be reversing the money and correctly crediting it.

              I tell this so that everyone will also think about the possibility that occasionally, a PayPal freeze may be for a legitimate reason - and it may not be just because a lot of money is suddenly coming into your account. In this case, PayPal was actually doing an excellent job of making sure the right person gets paid.

              Anyone that knows me well (and there are very few on the WF that can say they do), know that I really don't like PayPal (as you've probably seen from some of my previous posts) because they operate at their whim. In the same breath, I like them because buyers like and trust them, so that makes sales that may not occur otherwise. But, this gave me a little better feeling about them. Hope it does the same for you.

              JDD
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      • Profile picture of the author activebiz
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        ???



        Paypal minimizes their risk on intangible products (i.e. digital downloads) by offering no buyer protection for such purchases.

        In other words, Paypal offers buyer protection for the purchase of physical goods, whereas the only guarantee for an intangible product must be offered by the merchant. They apparently understand the risk in processing payments for intangibles (have for years), and manage that risk by withholding the buyer protection.

        Yes, they see refunds as a problem... but for all products, whether physical or not. It comes with the territory.

        Typically, if a buyer files a Paypal dispute on the purchase of an intangible, the seller MUST respond to the dispute - but pointing out to Paypal that their own policy provides NO buyer protection is typically sufficient for getting Paypal to side with the seller and to dismiss the buyer's dispute.
        Sid, not necessarily unless one would attribute that exclusively to WF transactions. I, as a buyer had 2 disputes to file for digital products [not from WF though] due to 1 total misrepresentation and the other for non-delivery of the full product. Both claims were granted without a hitch within days actually.
        Joyfully I cvan state that I never had such a problem with any of my WF purchases. - If in doubt, shoot an email or Im first to the WSO offerer to clarify. Simple.
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        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          Originally Posted by activebiz View Post

          Sid, not necessarily unless one would attribute that exclusively to WF transactions. I, as a buyer had 2 disputes to file for digital products [not from WF though] due to 1 total misrepresentation and the other for non-delivery of the full product. Both claims were granted without a hitch within days actually.
          Those claims were probably granted simply because the seller was willing to issue the refund.

          Most do, because they feel that it is simply easier to refund, and/or they have been trained to refund so that they don't jeopardize their reputation.

          My point was that IF the seller invokes the "no buyer protection" clause in the Paypal AUP... Paypal will relent.

          The only exception I have ever seen to this (and I'm talking about many more than just 2 transactions), is if it was a chargeback from a credit card purchase (where the credit card company makes the final decision - not Paypal).
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

      It is fairly obvious that Paypal does not like the risk of digital products, they see refunds as problems, the fact is that digital is the future and if paypal does not want the business someone else will come in and take the business.

      Its a shame really because everywhere you look online its all about digital products from music to video and more.
      I do not agree Paypal don't like digital products. When you say the term digital product you are talking about things like graphics packs, music tracks, softwares, plugins, courses, web sites templates, photos, and on and on it goes.

      Do you really think Paypal have a problem with all of that stuff? I don't. They would be shooting themselves in the foot if they did. Digital products are a HUGE market and they know that.

      I think when you say digital products you mean IM digital products? Having said that I still don't think they have a problem with all IM products otherwise a lot of the products in the WSO forum would not be selling. There's your proof right there. They could easily shut all those offers down in the blink of an eye.

      I believe they only have problems with specific products and the way in which certain products/opportunities are sold. It's certainly the minority of products having problems... not the majority.
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  • Profile picture of the author azmanar
    Hi,

    I agree with not having promotions for Affiliates on Product Sales Page. Please do it sooner than later.

    Strange PayPal Events.

    (1) I had trouble buying a product from a seller in JVZoo. My PayPal was considered as NOT GOOD for $8. A few hours later, I bought something online elsewhere worth $109 without any issue. That was about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

    It is either PayPal interrupting that transaction because of "trust" factor of the seller or me, I'm not really sure. I wasn't even on an international VPN.

    (2) 2 months ago, a Warrior merchant had already set-up an automatic recurring payment for his services to me. For this month, the automatic payment went through but was REVERSED by PayPal spontaneously. When I checked in my PayPal account, I saw a very tiny hyperlinked graphic button saying "confirm receipt" next to that transaction.

    The payment only went through after I clicked that "confirm receipt". That was the first time I'm seeing such verification for recurring payment. It is good, but caught me by surprise.

    Warrior Merchants should be aware of that.

    (3) Last year. There was one time, I saw PayPal currency exchange was far too high than normal. I bought the WSO anyway because I need it. After that, I stopped buying anything for 4 weeks or so, because of the bad currency exchange rates.

    I brought this up in a WF thread because of frustration for not being able to buy some interesting WSOs. The next day, the currency exchange became normal AND the over-charged rate by PayPal was refunded to me. Wow ! That was good of PayPal.

    I think that would be a good indication that, PAYPAL is MONITORING WF threads. Or probably a mere coincident.
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    In truth, I think the reason that PayPal might have a problem with IM products is because some people at PayPal, including their customers BUY IM products and they go through the circus of absurdity when it comes to these products. Going through umpteen pages of a WSO trying to find pertinent data. Products that are substandard and misleading. Lack of policing of the industry and rightly so as it's so massive. One influential PayPal person getting screwed is enough to bring things down.
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  • Profile picture of the author gordonfxtrader
    Paypal like to limited account, it take 6 months to get your money back if you`re unable to resolve the issue. Suck I need to find alternative
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  • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
    First let me start of by saying.... I love the warrior forum and will always support and recommend it to others. I got your back

    We got on Paypals radar a few weeks back and had our account limited and then a 180 day rolling reserve put on our accounts plus a ton of cash we already made!

    We called their risk management team and after a bunch of calls and messages finally got a call back.

    We told them we sold software and shared our salespage.... not the WSO page... but our salepage on our own hosting.

    They were very polite and said they would take care of it and they will lift the reserve. They asked us to call them back in about 30-40 minutes.

    About 30 minutes later... we called back and now they were rude and said... "we see you sell your product on the warrior forum and we dont like that!" they refused to take the reserve off. Im assuming they just did a quick google search and found our product.

    I only tell you this so we can all figure out a way to rebuild a relationship with paypal and the warrior forum.

    I assume that because just about anyone can create a paypal account and sell something off the forum... some bad apples can ruin it for the rest of us.

    Any ideas?
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    Dr. Dan that sums it up. I'd said year after year, clean up the WF especially those absurd WSO solicitations. Fell on deaf ears. Now you're seeing some examples of how people get into trouble.

    Be honest, upfront, no tricky WSO threads that go on for pages filled with "I can't get the download" or "I PM'd you" or "The sales button doesn't work" and worse, "I've gotten the WSO and will come back with a review." and the review doesn't come. A WSO should sell a product, people apply it and it works or it doesn't. Clean it up and WF will be pals with PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author DoWhatWorks
      OK, so here's my question, to make sure I don't break any rules:

      I started selling my WSO on the WF on May 15, 2012. After the Memorial Day weekend, I was going to sign up to JVZoo, so that others could promote my WSO. Can I make a post on my WSO thread, letting people know that they can now promote my WSO through JVZoo?

      -Terry
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      • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
        Originally Posted by DoWhatWorks View Post

        OK, so here's my question, to make sure I don't break any rules:

        I started selling my WSO on the WF on May 15, 2012. After the Memorial Day weekend, I was going to sign up to JVZoo, so that others could promote my WSO. Can I make a post on my WSO thread, letting people know that they can now promote my WSO through JVZoo?

        -Terry
        After all you've read in this thread, why would you even want to? I would think that the WF/WSO rule aside, after hearing the 'PayPal' viewpoint on this, most would be rushing over to all their old WSO's to REMOVE any referrals to their affiliate program.

        I'd also like to point out that Allen has an excellent thread in his "My Ideas, Strategies and Plans" section of the War Room where he explicity advises product creators 'don't cut my throat by having a link to your affiliate program right on your sales page."

        The fact that engaging affiliate recruitment this way goes beyond the 'curreent' 'PayPal' reason.

        -Dani
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        • Profile picture of the author DoWhatWorks
          Hi Dani,

          After I read all of the posts in this thread, I got the impression that the main isssues that PayPal has with WSOs relates to OTOs, upsells, and selling products that teach people how to sell products that teach others how to sell products, etc. (the infinite loop of no-value). Since my WSO does not offer any OTOs or upsells and I don't teach people how to sell WSOs of their own which teach others how to sell WSOs, my impression was that I would not be doing anything that would be a problem in PayPal's eyes.

          Also, I was going to sell my product through JVZoo, which uses PayPal's own adaptive payment system of paying affiliates. I am inclined to believe that one of PayPal's issues is with vendors who use the rotating payment system. Since those rotating payment systems often mask the contact information of the vendor, my thinking is that PayPal might have a problem with this, since the vendor cannot actually refund the purchase if it was one of the purchases that was credited to the affiliate's PayPal account. Since I would be using JVZoo, which does not use this rotating payment systen, but rather PayPal's own adaptive payments system, I do not offer OTO's, I don't sell products that teach people how to sell products too, and I am perfectly ok with speaking with PayPal if they ever needed to discuss anything with me, I didn't think it would be a problem to let others know that they can promote my WSO through JVZoo.

          So, again, my question is this:

          I started selling my WSO on the WF on May 15, 2012. After the Memorial Day weekend, I was going to sign up to JVZoo, so that others could promote my WSO. Can I make a post on my WSO thread, letting people know that they can now promote my WSO through JVZoo?

          -Terry


          Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

          After all you've read in this thread, why would you even want to? I would think that the WF/WSO rule aside, after hearing the 'PayPal' viewpoint on this, most would be rushing over to all their old WSO's to REMOVE any referrals to their affiliate program.

          I'd also like to point out that Allen has an excellent thread in his "My Ideas, Strategies and Plans" section of the War Room where he explicity advises product creators 'don't cut my throat by having a link to your affiliate program right on your sales page."

          The fact that engaging affiliate recruitment this way goes beyond the 'curreent' 'PayPal' reason.

          -Dani
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          • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
            Originally Posted by DoWhatWorks View Post

            Hi Dani,

            Also, I was going to sell my product through JVZoo, which uses PayPal's own adaptive payment system of paying affiliates. I am inclined to believe that one of PayPal's issues is with vendors who use the rotating payment system. Since those rotating payment systems often mask the contact information of the vendor, my thinking is that PayPal might have a problem with this, since the vendor cannot actually refund the purchase if it was one of the purchases that was credited to the affiliate's PayPal account. Since I would be using JVZoo, which does not use this rotating payment systen, but rather PayPal's own adaptive payments system, I do not offer OTO's, I don't sell products that teach people how to sell products too, and I am perfectly ok with speaking with PayPal if they ever needed to discuss anything with me, I didn't think it would be a problem to let others know that they can promote my WSO through JVZoo.

            -Terry
            Agreed and this is one of the problems we had with charge backs coming from the rotating payments. Wasnt our product and we were left with the charge back because it came from our account and the buyer either didnt or couldnt get in contact with the actual seller/ product creator. They just did a charge back and there was nothing we could do about it

            We even tried emailing the buyers, but got either a bounce back or no response :confused:

            After promoting a few of these... we had our paypal account permanently shut down. We are in the process of trying to get it lifted. But they have already said... they dont want our business anymore

            Stay away from rotating payments is our step number 1.
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            • Profile picture of the author DoWhatWorks
              Hi Dr. Dan,

              Thanks for those additional insights into your experience. I've heard many similar stories of people who ran into problems as a result of running affiliate programs through rotating payment systems.

              Thanks again!

              -Terry


              Originally Posted by Dr Dan View Post

              Agreed and this is one of the problems we had with charge backs coming from the rotating payments. Wasnt our product and we were left with the charge back because it came from our account and the buyer either didnt or couldnt get in contact with the actual seller/ product creator. They just did a charge back and there was nothing we could do about it

              We even tried emailing the buyers, but got either a bounce back or no response :confused:

              After promoting a few of these... we had our paypal account permanently shut down. We are in the process of trying to get it lifted. But they have already said... they dont want our business anymore

              Stay away from rotating payments is our step number 1.
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          • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
            PayPal's 'problem(s)' are many. It is not limited to ONE thing, it is a combination of factors, one of which being the idea that promoting a program where buyers can 'resell' what they've bought, 'affiliate program' seems like an MLM. "

            So it doesn't matter if you're not selling 'how to sell,' if you're selling that it can be resold, then they're going to look at you like an MLM.

            I can't speak for Paul on whether or not he'll apply the 'time frame' to posts edited after the deadline date as opposed to only new ones, but it's a bad idea on several levels... PayPal doesn't like it, serious affiliates don't like you cutting their throats by announcing your affiliate program on a page they are driving traffic to, and you're cutting your own throat because now you have people who will 'buy through their own affiliate link' or through a 'friends,'.

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            • Profile picture of the author DoWhatWorks
              Hi Dani,

              Thank you! What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered the fact that just offering an affiliate link in the sales page itself could be a problem for PayPal, but I think I finally get it now.

              Those are also some really good points you made about the many drawbacks to including affiliate information in the actual WSO thread. I hadn't considered the fact that affiliates would view this as a negative since it's the same page they're driving traffic to. Thanks for these excellent points. I'm going to seriously have to reconsider things and I definitely won't be promoting my affiliate program on my WSO thread. Thanks a million!!

              -Terry


              Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

              PayPal's 'problem(s)' are many. It is not limited to ONE thing, it is a combination of factors, one of which being the idea that promoting a program where buyers can 'resell' what they've bought, 'affiliate program' seems like an MLM. "

              So it doesn't matter if you're not selling 'how to sell,' if you're selling that it can be resold, then they're going to look at you like an MLM.

              I can't speak for Paul on whether or not he'll apply the 'time frame' to posts edited after the deadline date as opposed to only new ones, but it's a bad idea on several levels... PayPal doesn't like it, serious affiliates don't like you cutting their throats by announcing your affiliate program on a page they are driving traffic to, and you're cutting your own throat because now you have people who will 'buy through their own affiliate link' or through a 'friends,'.

              Dani
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  • Profile picture of the author CK Pittman
    Does anyone think that having a business PayPal account vs. a personal PayPal account makes any difference? Personally, I have a business PayPal account, and I haven't had any issues. I believe with a business account, higher "activity" levels are expected, but with a personal PayPal account multiple transactions within a specific time frame may "look" suspicious... What do you think? What's your experience with this? CK
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    • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
      Originally Posted by CK Pittman View Post

      Does anyone think that having a business PayPal account vs. a personal PayPal account makes any difference? Personally, I have a business PayPal account, and I haven't had any issues. I believe with a business account, higher "activity" levels are expected, but with a personal PayPal account multiple transactions within a specific time frame may "look" suspicious... What do you think? What's your experience with this? CK
      I only use business paypal accounts and didnt make a difference as far as I could tell? But I never tested it using a personal account.

      So having a business account is not making it safe for you
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    • Profile picture of the author JST3P
      Originally Posted by CK Pittman View Post

      Does anyone think that having a business PayPal account vs. a personal PayPal account makes any difference? Personally, I have a business PayPal account, and I haven't had any issues. I believe with a business account, higher "activity" levels are expected, but with a personal PayPal account multiple transactions within a specific time frame may "look" suspicious... What do you think? What's your experience with this? CK
      A verified business account with a TAX ID or SSN will be viewed more favorably upon casual review by a PP rep, in general. That's just human nature.

      Other than that there is no real difference in protections or actions that can be taken, just in the functionality and options available to the account holder.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    My wifes Paypal account was shut down after a very small online purchase (non-IM), it took us over a week to get Paypal to understand we are the legit owners of that Paypal account.

    Personally I think Paypal blows, I understand fraud alerts but what I've seen is a load of crap alerts.

    I think the best bet is to use a large, well known 3rd party (Clickbank, etc...) as a checkout, then let the 3rd party write you a check. Working with a well known 3rd party would most likely pass the Paypal headache on to someone else, for a small transaction fee.
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  • Profile picture of the author buddhabux
    Thank you, everybody for your honesty and wisdom.

    This has been the most illuminating discussion re PayPal i have seen.

    I am now going to make immediate changes on one of my offers due to this new intelligence. it is not an offer to affs per se, but i dont want my offer to be perceived as selling an opportunity to sell something when that is not my focus and there is no real need for it.

    success to all, david
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  • I guess what bothers me the most about this whole topic, is that if paypal would actually say exactly what it is that they don't like, the Warrior Forum and nearly every marketer I know of would comply immediately. I've listened to the call: http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
    more than once, but I don't think I fully understood it until I read CDarlock's post explaining what Anthony was selling at the time he was blocked and then I went back and listened to the call again to really, finally get what the rep was saying. He beats around the bush several times without really being specific. I'm sure Anthony would have complied, if he'd known what the real problem was.
    Stef
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  • Profile picture of the author Vendor-Lock
    I agree with Sam,

    I too had my paypal account frozen as soon as I started making over $500 per day.
    It WAS a pain because it put my business in lock-down for 5 days. Not cool !
    But, after answering their questions and providing them with photo ID etc.
    they unfroze my account and I've never had a single problem since.

    I was ticked when it happended because of the impact on my business and all the
    explaining I had to do on THEIR behalf to my customers....
    but I also think it's a good thing they are checking for fraudsters and putting them
    out of business. If you're 100% legit with your business, you have nothing to worry
    about with paypal. They have a big job to do policing all this stuff, and they can't
    possibly make everyone happy. No company of that size can. It's impossible.

    I for one am glad they exist, and we all have to give our hats off to a company that
    has made payment proccessing what it is today. EASY !

    Have a great day fellow warriors....

    Yours truly,
    Jeff Noyes

    Vendor-Lock Software co.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    I've been doing some research and it seems that Paypal is becoming more strict when it comes to marketing through forums. It especially raises a red flag to them when affiliates can sign up to promote the offer on the sales page itself. Paypal recognizes offers like these as spammy and I have heard on multiple occasions that Paypal has shut down accounts and thus the marketer had to shut down his WSO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Jeff,
      1. Does anyone that has an older WSO with an affiliate promotion link in it, have to go back and edit those WSOs?
      No. It's up to you at this point, but I think it's a Very Good Idea.
      2. Does the new rule cover the classified ad section too?
      It probably should.
      3. Can we run a classified ad specifically for recruting affiliates?
      If it's completely separate from the ad for the product, I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed.

      As with all changes, the answers will depend on the results, and may change. If sellers push too hard to find ways around the rule, we'll push back. The spirit of the thing is simple, though: Keep affiliate recruitment separate from the product promotions. Sticking to that should avoid most, if not all, potential rules conflicts.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Vendor-Lock
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Jeff,No. It's up to you at this point, but I think it's a Very Good Idea.It probably should.If it's completely separate from the ad for the product, I don't see why that wouldn't be allowed.

        As with all changes, the answers will depend on the results, and may change. If sellers push too hard to find ways around the rule, we'll push back. The spirit of the thing is simple, though: Keep affiliate recruitment separate from the product promotions. Sticking to that should avoid most, if not all, potential rules conflicts.


        Paul
        Thanks Paul. I appreciate it. I will add this info to my weekly newsletter.

        Yours truly,
        Jeff Noyes

        Vendor-Lock Software co.
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    • Profile picture of the author Billy Kofi
      Great Advice, i know quite a few people getting Paypal problems via WF

      This has wide implications for the whole WSO business model

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    • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
      Originally Posted by thedanbrown View Post

      I've been doing some research and it seems that Paypal is becoming more strict when it comes to marketing through forums. It especially raises a red flag to them when affiliates can sign up to promote the offer on the sales page itself. Paypal recognizes offers like these as spammy and I have heard on multiple occasions that Paypal has shut down accounts and thus the marketer had to shut down his WSO.
      Well said and here's the BIG SECRET:

      PayPal employees ARE WARRIOR FORUM MEMBERS TOO!

      Sheesh!

      People at PayPal like to make money via IM and of course they come to WF. Why wouldn't they? I've said for years, clean up WF. You guys have to understand that this site is global not some secret geek hangout on the web. I work in and around some of the biggest movie stars, music stars, sports stars, etc.. They're always looking for ways to make good money even if they have millions. I gave some celebs in my area a new hotsheet I did with Shay Rockhold and they lost their minds. I can't send them to WF until things get cleaned up though.

      Just think of it Warriors, many of you are doing astounding things with IM. There are still people who don't know what's going on with IM and there are people to meet and astonishing things for the future. You top folks in IM should demand change. Integrity is everything.
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    • Profile picture of the author AlaskaBorg
      Is their some reason that you couldn't use Google Checkout, Authorize.net, Big Commerce etc. for doing this? Does the WSO software only work with paypal?
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    • Profile picture of the author bizitflint
      Also you should "Watch" out for CB they do are doing "something" in this line too. They are working on the part, "Rebilling", with me it was use of Debit Card,, after verifying all information & checking account.
      They ok it. Now they say "No" ???>? ( you tell me ) Big Boys can change the rules i guess ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Adevictus
    It is a very simple explanation:

    Paypal can not offer seller protection to people who sell WSOs. If someone buys a WSO and wants to charge back, they can. Period.

    When someone does a chargeback, PayPal loses money.

    WSOs also have relatively high refund rates compared to other products sold through PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Sides
      Originally Posted by Adevictus View Post

      It is a very simple explanation:

      Paypal can not offer seller protection to people who sell WSOs. If someone buys a WSO and wants to charge back, they can. Period.

      When someone does a chargeback, PayPal loses money.

      WSOs also have relatively high refund rates compared to other products sold through PayPal.
      I think this is a very untrue statement. Most of the vendors doing any serious volume with WSOs also have very very low refund rates. Its not at all uncommon for me to see a 3% or below refund rate on my products.

      When you compare that with the market as a whole, I'd say that's far below the average refund rate on other products being ran through Paypal (and I'm not exception here...lots of great vendors have low rates like this).

      Cheers,

      James
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
      Originally Posted by Adevictus View Post

      When someone does a chargeback, PayPal loses money.

      WSOs also have relatively high refund rates compared to other products sold through PayPal.
      I disagree with both of those. PayPal often fights and wins chargebacks, and I see lower refund rates on WSOs than other downloadable products.

      Am I the only one who's disappointed that it's come to this now? I thought people were including links to affiliate pages as a convenience; I can't be the only one who looks in the WSO thread for that info. Now that it isn't allowed it will just be harder to find it. What is the upside?

      Gee I wonder why so many people mention their affiliate program on their sales pages, in their emails, and inside their products? Maybe because that works?

      I wonder how many people will read a thread, see no mention of an affiliate program, and assume there isn't one, or that it's secret and not available to them.

      The arguments about "leakage" are weak- unless you mean that making it hard for anyone to find out about your affiliate program will mean less "leakage".

      Why don't we just do away with affiliate programs entirely? If someone is really motivated, can't they just do a background check on you, get your contact info, and contact you directly to negotiate a deal to get commissions?
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Hey Chris,

        Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

        Am I the only one who's disappointed that it's come to this now? I thought people were including links to affiliate pages as a convenience; I can't be the only one who looks in the WSO thread for that info. Now that it isn't allowed it will just be harder to find it. What is the upside?
        The affiliate networks already do a pretty good job of advertising the existence of the affiliate program. Ever seen one of those "Powered by ..." notices on the buy buttons?

        You won't even have to scroll all the way down to the second post in the thread. Those buy buttons will be in the original post.

        Gee I wonder why so many people mention their affiliate program on their sales pages, in their emails, and inside their products? Maybe because that works?
        Yep - and the only one of those that is out of place... is the sales page.

        I wonder how many people will read a thread, see no mention of an affiliate program, and assume there isn't one, or that it's secret and not available to them.
        Maybe it's not... if the affiliate hasn't learned to ferret out an affiliate program, or the merchant is too cheap or too lazy to advertise it. But then, that's part of the job. Good merchants will be actively recruiting affiliates, and good affiliates will be actively seeking out good offers for their leads. Either one that doesn't feel it's worth the effort probably needs to find other work.

        If someone is really motivated, can't they just do a background check on you, get your contact info, and contact you directly to negotiate a deal to get commissions?
        If they're not really motivated... do you really want them as an affiliate?

        As for finding a merchant's contact info, I think a background check really isn't necessary. Here, on the WF, there's 1) the buy button that often advertises the affiliate network, and/or 2) the merchant can advertise his/her affiliate program in the classified ads forum, and/or 3) an affiliate could easily PM the WSO poster requesting a link to their affiliate sign up page.

        Outside of the WF, there are plenty of ways to recruit affiliates. Willie has already mentioned the download page, follow up emails, or within the product, itself. On the sales page, a motivated affiliate can simply click on the link to your contact/support form, and request a link.

        Once you've collected affiliates from your first product (you do maintain a separate list for your affiliates, don't you?), announce your new (upcoming) WSO to them so they can help build the initial "buzz" for it once you launch. Besides promoting your product for commissions, they are helping your affiliate program go viral (they almost always have other affiliate marketers on their lists).

        A little more work for the merchant and the affiliate? Sure, but I think it's worth it to help "qualify" the merchant to the affiliate, and vice versa.

        In the process, not only will there be one less thing to upset the payment processors, but it'll be that much more difficult for some of the bottom feeders who are just here looking for a way to scam the members for a quick buck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    There is a lot of conflicting information about PayPal shutting down accounts of people who use the Warrior Forum, JVZoo, and Warrior Plus. The purpose of this post is not to debate whether or not PayPal is overtly targeting these sites. The purpose is to put together a list of best practices for Warriors who use PayPal as an integral part of their business.

    No two Warriors have the exact same transaction history, so it is virtually impossible to make blanket statements. Therefore, it is up to you to take your business seriously and do your own due diligence in regards to collecting payments.

    That being said, let's see if we can get enough solid tips together to decrease the odds of being flagged, frozen, or financial forfeit.

    I am not an expert on PayPal, but here are the Best Practices I came up with. (This post can be modified and notated as needed.)

    1. Read PayPal's Terms. There are several different sets of terms, based on what services and products you are using. You can find them under "Legal Agreements" at the bottom of the home page after logging in. Log in to your PayPal account, then use this link --> https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...md=p/gen/ua/ua

    2. Be careful about how you position and present your offer.

    3. Don't make income claims.

    4. Avoid "circular" products that show you how to make money by showing other people how to make money with the same money-making system that has shown them how to make money...

    5. Be realistic, not scared. It's a good idea to do what you can to prevent problems. It's a good idea to have a back up plan. It is NOT a good idea to get caught up in negativity and rumors. In other words, don't let the fear of being shut down stop you from doing business completely.

    6. Diversify ways of earning, paying, and collecting payment.

    7. Play nice. If you're a scammer, you deserve to get shut down.

    8. Don't do things with your account that would seem fishy to an objective observer. Suddenly collecting $1000s when you normally make $10s and then withdrawing all but $5 would look odd to anybody, not just PayPal.

    9. IF you do get limited, shut down, etc., then talk to PayPal. Keep talking to PayPal until you feel things have been resolved. Be polite and professional. Give them whatever they ask for. You have nothing to lose so keep trying.

    There are no guarantees in life, but this list should help protect you.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Networking_now
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


      That being said, let's see if we can get enough solid tips together to decrease the odds of being flagged, frozen, or financial forfeit.

      I am not an expert on PayPal, but here are the Best Practices I came up with. (This post can be modified and notated as needed.)

      1. Read PayPal's Terms. There are several different sets of terms, based on what services and products you are using. You can find them under "Legal Agreements" at the bottom of the home page after logging in. Log in to your PayPal account, then use this link --> https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...md=p/gen/ua/ua

      2. Be careful about how you position and present your offer.

      3. Don't make income claims.

      4. Avoid "circular" products that show you how to make money by showing other people how to make money with the same money-making system that has shown them how to make money...

      5. Be realistic, not scared. It's a good idea to do what you can to prevent problems. It's a good idea to have a back up plan. It is NOT a good idea to get caught up in negativity and rumors. In other words, don't let the fear of being shut down stop you from doing business completely.

      6. Diversify ways of earning, paying, and collecting payment.

      7. Play nice. If you're a scammer, you deserve to get shut down.

      8. Don't do things with your account that would seem fishy to an objective observer. Suddenly collecting $1000s when you normally make $10s and then withdrawing all but $5 would look odd to anybody, not just PayPal.

      9. IF you do get limited, shut down, etc., then talk to PayPal. Keep talking to PayPal until you feel things have been resolved. Be polite and professional. Give them whatever they ask for. You have nothing to lose so keep trying.

      There are no guarantees in life, but this list should help protect you.
      What is the rule with OTOs, and Upsells? concerning Paypal?

      do it Before the person has given any money? not immediately after?

      do they track this with clever scripts? to see if money has been sent from one person to another, and withing minutes......'another' amount of money has been sent from that customer to the person(seller), I suppose they have clever scripts/software to track these, OTO's which happen 'after' the customer has purcahsed ??
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      • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
        I've read through this entire thread and am much more educated about some of the intricacies of the PayPal land mine system. Now, I'd like to offer a little different perspective about my own PayPal situation in a different type of business - NOT digital products, NOT IM, NOT "how to make money", or any of the other areas that have been discussed here.

        Until about 3 1/2 years ago, I was a homebuilder for about 5 or 6 years building high end custom lakefront homes - most costing in the $1.5 Million to $2.5 Million range. I was building for a couple of investors and their expenditures were outpacing their ability to get draws from the bank (translation, they were spending more than their bank loans were for). They asked if I could take credit cards - but my only method was via PayPal. So we agreed to get me paid for anything over the bank draws using our PayPal accounts.

        Some weeks, my billings to them was in the $40,000 neighborhood. The first week we tried PayPal, they tried a $32,000 payment, but it exceeded the $10,000 threshhold to trigger the Patriot Act issues. Since each house was owned by a different legally established entity, they just set up separate PayPal accounts for each of those businesses and began to pay me through each of them until I was fully paid each week.

        This went great through the third week. On the fourth week, it happened to be a light billing week - just under $10,000 I think. They paid me through PayPal as we had been doing and PayPal froze my account. I couldn't access the funds they had paid me and in fact PayPal reversed the payment from my account, but held it and would not reverse it back to them.

        They claimed I had been paid and I had evidence I had not. It almost became a real problem, but they lodged a complaint with their credit card company and I got a "real merchant account" with my bank. Over the next year or so, I was running in excess of $150,000 a month through my merchant account and my bank never even blinked an eye. I always joked that I was the only builder on the lake that could build you a house completely on credit cards if you wanted.

        But, my point is, I was selling a real world product and real world services and my PayPal account still was frozen. This was 2006 or 2007 and getting PayPal to speak to you at that time was almost an impossibility. Apparently, it's a little easier now.

        Now, before you say it, I will. Were they "gaming" the system? Yes. But each entity that was paying me was a legally established business in the state of incorporation, with their own Tax ID Number, their own bank accounts, their own credit cards, etc. So, technically, each of these businesses were a separate entity and each of their actions should not have impacted any of the others.

        When I finally got an answer from PayPal - almost six months later - their answer was that I was having too many sales, too often, to the same people/companies. Well, DUH!!! I was building houses and making weekly draws.

        This could have been a really bad situation for me and it was for about a week while I was getting my merchant account set up. But, it taught me a lesson. Just like I've always believed that you have multiple income streams, you should also have multiple payment processors if at all possible. I understand the problem with W+ and affiliates, but I do NO affiliate marketing and I don't sell anything on the WF, so it doesn't impact me. For those of you that do, I completely understand your apprehension.

        Regardless, I just wanted to share that it's not IM products - it can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. Hey, PayPal is not a bank so they don't have to follow banking rules. In fact, there are very few banking rules that they even have to observe.

        JDD
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        This is how the rumors get started...

        Originally Posted by Networking_now View Post

        What is the rule with OTOs, and Upsells? concerning Paypal?

        do it Before the person has given any money? not immediately after?

        do they track this with clever scripts? to see if money has been sent from one person to another, and withing minutes......'another' amount of money has been sent from that customer to the person(seller), I suppose they have clever scripts/software to track these, OTO's which happen 'after' the customer has purcahsed ??
        Some one reads a post like this one, translates the questions into statements of fact, then proceeds to publish those "facts" elsewhere, or answers someone else's questions with what he/she thinks they learned here.


        There is no rule with Paypal regarding OTO's or upsells, beyond the fact that receipt of the product must NOT be prevented after the purchase (i.e. requiring an additional purchase). All that means is that if you do offer on upsell on return from Paypal (i.e. an OTO), there MUST be a clear way to bypass the backend offer so that the original purchase can be received.

        Paypal is a payment processor. To the best of my knowledge, the terms one-time offer, OTO, and upsell are not used in their Acceptable Use Policy at all (and I've read all of their legal documents multiple times). Since those terms aren't even in their vocabulary, they have no rule(s) specifically targeting such offers.

        Every transaction with Paypal is separate and distinct from any other (with the exception of subscription payments). Trends in activity (fluctuations in transaction volume, refund percentages, chargeback percentages, fund withdrawals) can be monitored and may raise a red flag. Multiple payments from the same buyer, to the same seller's Paypal account, in a single day, is a common enough occurrence (happens multiple times, every day) that it is unlikely to cause a blip on their radar.

        It's definitely easier to get your answers from a forum like this, but you'll get a lot of very different answers. You'll probably choose to believe the answer that either a) comes closest to your original understanding/beliefs, 2) poses a solution that is "easier" for you to implement, or 3) seems to have the largest number of other posters who concur.

        Given the importance of this thread topic, doesn't it make sense to actually read and understand what Paypal says in their Acceptable Use Policy?
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    "The first week we tried PayPal, they tried a $32,000 payment, but it exceeded the $10,000 threshhold to trigger the Patriot Act issues. Since each house was owned by a different legally established entity, they just set up separate PayPal accounts for each of those businesses and began to pay me through each of them until I was fully paid each week."

    That could be a felony - structuring payments to avoid the $10,000 reporting requirement.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
      The $10,000 reporting requirement is for banks (which PayPal is NOT - never forget that when dealing with them) and it deals with depositing $10,000 in CASH - not credit card transactions or checks. The reporting comes when you are making those banking transactcions in cash.

      JDD

      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      "The first week we tried PayPal, they tried a $32,000 payment, but it exceeded the $10,000 threshhold to trigger the Patriot Act issues. Since each house was owned by a different legally established entity, they just set up separate PayPal accounts for each of those businesses and began to pay me through each of them until I was fully paid each week."

      That could be a felony - structuring payments to avoid the $10,000 reporting requirement.

      .
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      James Dunn
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  • Profile picture of the author etaiconsulting
    I have been thinking, but not sure when will that happen. Given the fact, that there are enormous transactions happening at WF and W+ and other merchant sites via WF, why don't Allen and others together create a payment processing gateway? I am sure this must have crossed minds of a lot of people and would have been speculated as well. But if that happens, the problem for PayPal or for that matter any other issues of listing on WF etc would be eliminated.

    These days if we partner up with some of the banks or financial institutions including master card or visa, they issue a payment gateway for transactions which includes a lot of countries (no 100% but approx 60% of the countries in the world) and would resolve the issues. The only worry would be for buyers to use their credit cards directly. However, Payment Gateways do include processing via PayPal so they can pay via PayPal on a Payment Gateway but would get transferred to a secured processing. Not sure if I am talking gibberish

    Mehul
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  • Profile picture of the author distrology
    paypal is not even a bank, but acting beyond bank, which is limiting one's account, holding the money for 180 days.. I think you gotta sue the company today!
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
      PayPal is not even a bank
      That's why they can do what they want to how they want to.

      Since they're not a bank, they don't fall under banking regs and are not penalized by not doing what banks are required to do. With a merchant account, I was getting my money in my account the evening of the CC processing on that day. I never had to wait more than 24 hours and usually it was less than 12 hours. With PayPal, once the money was in my account, I still had to wait several days for them to transfer the money to my bank account.

      "Get a PayPal Debit Card" you say. Yeah, I applied for one of those every few months. Turned down every time. Turned down for a debit card to get money out of my account? Go figure.

      JDD
      Originally Posted by distrology View Post

      paypal is not even a bank, but acting beyond bank, which is limiting one's account, holding the money for 180 days.. I think you gotta sue the company today!
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      • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
        Originally Posted by jimbo3891 View Post

        That's why they can do what they want to how they want to.

        Since they're not a bank, they don't fall under banking regs and are not penalized by not doing what banks are required to do. With a merchant account, I was getting my money in my account the evening of the CC processing on that day. I never had to wait more than 24 hours and usually it was less than 12 hours. With PayPal, once the money was in my account, I still had to wait several days for them to transfer the money to my bank account.

        "Get a PayPal Debit Card" you say. Yeah, I applied for one of those every few months. Turned down every time. Turned down for a debit card to get money out of my account? Go figure.

        JDD
        Debit cards have very low daily cash withdrawal limits. PayPal's is only $300-$400, most are $300. If you're processing thousands weekly, using that debit card to withdraw so they can't freeze won't do you much good anyway. Better to transfer it from one bank, then immediately to another. Leaving only enough in there to support your industry's average refund and chargeback risk.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

          Debit cards have very low daily cash withdrawal limits. PayPal's is only $300-$400, most are $300. If you're processing thousands weekly, using that debit card to withdraw so they can't freeze won't do you much good anyway. Better to transfer it from one bank, then immediately to another. Leaving only enough in there to support your industry's average refund and chargeback risk.
          With PayPal, the limit is $400 per day, however, you can get at least one extra card, which will also have a $400 per day limit. I have one for me and one for someone else.

          There is no limit on what you spend using the card, though. I find it easier to use the card for all my normal expenditures and only pull cash when it's necessary.
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          • Profile picture of the author NameKeptPrivate
            I've created a new account, because honestly, I don't want PayPal or anyone else to be able to associate me with the comments that I'm going to make. This thread will be the only one that I attempt to participate in with this username if the Mods allow me to do so.

            Whenever a thread like this comes up, you always see a couple of people jump in on the side of paypal defending their actions because of the "risk" that they inherit when they allow someone to process payments through them.

            To those people, I want to say this. Until you actually get your account closed down and all of your money *stolen* from you, there is NO WAY that you could possibly understand what those that have had it happen are going through and your responses are infuriating.

            Yes, paypal does shoulder some risk, but if they choose to close someones account for whatever reason who has done business with them for years and has a refund rate of 1,2, or 3% it is CRIMINAL for them to decide to keep at some times HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars hostage for 180 days. CRIMINAL.

            I've yet, either in my case or in any other case where it's happened heard of PayPal offering a REASONABLE explanation for altering someones life the way that they do at a whim.

            I can understand seeing things from their point of view, but many of the comments that some members make has a tone of "you must have been doing something wrong", when it's IMPOSSIBLE to know what is right or wrong with their user agreement and even when they do close an account, they CAN'T or WON'T point to ANYTHING or ANY REASON why they've come to the decision they have.

            They simply say that they've decided not to do business with you anymore and that they are going to KEEP all of your MONEY for a period of 180 DAYS. I'd love to see those that feel paypal is acting "justly" response if and when PayPal comes knocking on their door and they get the 30 second phone call and plain form email telling you that your account is closed and your money has been taken hostage.

            In my own case, when my account was closed, I had a refund rate of 1.7% over a period of 3 years and had processed more than a million dollars with a total of 3 chargebacks that totaled $86.

            My account was attached to a credit card, a bank account, they had all of my articles of incorporation, and numerous other documents that they had requested and been sent over the life of my account.

            My sales pages and products while in the Internet Marketing niche were largely geared towards software products and didn't contain any "get rich" promises, nor did I promote affiliate opportunities on my sales pages or anywhere else for that matter, other than "private" emails and skype messages to potential partners.

            While PayPal does take on Risk, they understood that risk when they decided to get into the kind of business that they are in, didn't they? And while there is always risk, how much risk is there really when they look at an account that has been around for YEARS and has almost no history of refunds or chargebacks? Do they think that person is suddenly going to start scamming and scheming? Or are they somehow psychic and no something that nobody else knows?

            Just listen to the recording from Anthony Aires of his conversation with the PayPal representative and you can almost get the feeling that the whole process is just so arbitrary.

            Yes, they do have the right to close any account they want, but the way they actually go about doing it with no warning and keeping all the money in the account for HALF A YEAR is about unjust as it gets.

            Ultimately, I DID end up getting my account back after speaking to someone at PayPal that was willing to actually listen and investigate. Unfortunately though, a HUGE portion of the people that get their accounts closed are never going to get to speak with such a person and they will struggle to pay their bills and feel their family for 6 months because they had enough TRUST in paypal to leave money in their account - Trust that isn't returned by PayPal even to people that DO play by their rules and DO take care of their customers to ensure that there isn't a problem with refunds or chargebacks.
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          • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            With PayPal, the limit is $400 per day, however, you can get at least one extra card, which will also have a $400 per day limit. I have one for me and one for someone else.

            There is no limit on what you spend using the card, though. I find it easier to use the card for all my normal expenditures and only pull cash when it's necessary.
            I thought it was $400 with PayPal, and yes, I was referring to cash withdrawal. I'm not sure I could 'spend' $5,000 + per week with a debit card though. LOL.
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          • Profile picture of the author mattflynn
            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            With PayPal, the limit is $400 per day, however, you can get at least one extra card, which will also have a $400 per day limit. I have one for me and one for someone else.

            .
            You can get one extra card? Is that just a matter of asking for one at original application time? If so can you add one after you have the first? I'd definitely like to do that!
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            • Profile picture of the author NameKeptPrivate
              Originally Posted by mattflynn View Post

              You can get one extra card? Is that just a matter of asking for one at original application time? If so can you add one after you have the first? I'd definitely like to do that!
              Yes, the way I understand it is you can add a card, but it has to be in a different name (could be wrong), so you can add one for a husband, wife, etc. You can do this at any time, from your PayPal dashboard and you'll usually have the card in less than a week.
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            • Profile picture of the author CJEmerson
              Originally Posted by mattflynn View Post

              You can get one extra card? Is that just a matter of asking for one at original application time? If so can you add one after you have the first? I'd definitely like to do that!
              Yup. You can add an additional card at any time from your account. A few months after I had mine, we added one in my wife's name. $400 per day withdrawal limit per card as mentioned above.
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          • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
            Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

            With PayPal, the limit is $400 per day, however, you can get at least one extra card, which will also have a $400 per day limit. I have one for me and one for someone else.

            There is no limit on what you spend using the card, though. I find it easier to use the card for all my normal expenditures and only pull cash when it's necessary.
            Thanks Tina.

            So it is like a M/C or VISA card with the ability use it for purchases. Then it would have been nice to have. But, alas, they will not approve me for one.

            JDD
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        • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
          Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

          Debit cards have very low daily cash withdrawal limits. PayPal's is only $300-$400, most are $300. If you're processing thousands weekly, using that debit card to withdraw so they can't freeze won't do you much good anyway. Better to transfer it from one bank, then immediately to another. Leaving only enough in there to support your industry's average refund and chargeback risk.
          Good point Danielle.

          I hadn't even thought about the low withdrawal limit at the time, so even it I had gotten a PayPal Debit card, it would have only given me "pocket money" to buy gas and such until the money could get transferred to my bank anyway.

          But, they wouldn't even issue me a Debit Card - and I'm in the USA - so I don't get that anyway.

          JDD
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      • Profile picture of the author mattflynn
        Originally Posted by jimbo3891 View Post

        "Get a PayPal Debit Card" you say. Yeah, I applied for one of those every few months. Turned down every time. Turned down for a debit card to get money out of my account? Go figure.

        JDD
        Thats strange to get turned down for a debit card...credit card I'm sure happens plenty, but debit, weird? I find taking money out with my debit card keeps me under the radar.
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        • Profile picture of the author jimbo3891
          Originally Posted by mattflynn View Post

          Thats strange to get turned down for a debit card...credit card I'm sure happens plenty, but debit, weird? I find taking money out with my debit card keeps me under the radar.
          Yep, Matt.

          I thought it was strange, too. Until I applied for a Debit Card (from Discover) at QT Gas Station so I could use it to buy gas and get some "extra benefits" at QT. Turned down flat in minutes. No option to appeal or anything. Guess I'm just not a Debit Card kinda guy.

          JDD
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      • Profile picture of the author gregw2
        Originally Posted by jimbo3891 View Post

        That's why they can do what they want to how they want to.

        Since they're not a bank, they don't fall under banking regs and are not penalized by not doing what banks are required to do. With a merchant account, I was getting my money in my account the evening of the CC processing on that day. I never had to wait more than 24 hours and usually it was less than 12 hours. With PayPal, once the money was in my account, I still had to wait several days for them to transfer the money to my bank account.

        "Get a PayPal Debit Card" you say. Yeah, I applied for one of those every few months. Turned down every time. Turned down for a debit card to get money out of my account? Go figure.

        JDD
        I have had my PayPal account frozen twice. The first time it took a week to straighten it out. The second time it took almost 30 days and lots of calls and emails. Both times I was informed that it was due to unusual activity in my account. It is a merchant account, and I have their credit card too.

        It is very frustrating to have your money frozen. I was afraid that I was going to lose it. I have since opened up 3 other payment processing accounts. It is the only way to go. I also have a merchant account with a credit union and this is one of the best ways for anyone serious to go.

        If you plan to or believe that you are going to be processing a large increase in funds with PayPal you should contact them and make them aware of it. This has already been mentioned but it is important. The other thing to consider is using a different processor if at all possible, if you are going to be handling an increase in funds.

        Update: I may have drawn attention to my account by logging in from other countries. It was never a factor that I thought of before, but it could have something to do with the unusual activity mentioned by them. They, PayPal, never explained what type or form of unusual activity caused them to freeze my funds. I did have to verify my address in the US and send them a copy of a photo ID. I also had to receive a phone message at my home in the US to verify that I was there, even though I had been calling them from the same phone number.
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  • Profile picture of the author highflyingeagle
    ok, so it is a good practice not to mention that you have an affiliate program on your sales page so you don't appear to be selling an opportunity. Can you have a link in the footer of your sales's page to the affiliate program, or is it best not to even have any link on the sale's page? Thanks, for the answer to this question as I want to do all things honestly and ethically.

    God bless,
    Mark
    Isaiah 40:31
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  • Profile picture of the author sjc999
    With the FTC cracking down on websites and requiring statements of affiliate relationships, I, as a buyer of many WSOs, think that WF should adopt the policy of requiring affiliates' posts on a WSO thread to be clearly marked as 'Affiliate Endorsement.' That might seem strange at first in relation to the new rule, but it actually would add much greater transparency that would benefit the forum and its reputation. Yes, WF does have a bad reputation in that regard.

    Two more pleas:

    1) Dump OTOs. Put any purchasing decisions up front - different purchase levels...

    2) All ethical marketers that offer upgrades should offer an upgrade-only email optin - I shouldn't have to be inundated with your offers just to get info on the updates I have paid for.

    Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    Of course I had to add my thoughts here...

    Excellent idea of no more affiliate links, glad it was implemented.

    The common theme here is a lot of complaints start with the 'wsos' that are just made for the WSO forum - but never sell anywhere else.

    I remember back in the day here - the only WSOs you would see were truly special.

    And by special - I mean they are ALREADY SELLING elsewhere, then the product creator offered a special price or bonus. These offers seem to be very rare.

    If a user could only run WSOs for existing products, 90% of the crap would never see the forum since they are never sold elsewhere.

    Just thinking aloud - glad to see the changes!
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    I believe that people who are looking for affiliate program links on a sales page are looking for a way to get the product at a discount -- or for free in situations when the commissions are 100%.

    RAP helps address this issue by always sending the first commission payment to the vendor rather than the reseller, but it's possible to game this with little effort.

    RAP also has the ability to set an option where you have a "customer only affiliate program", meaning people can only become resellers after they've purchased the product. If they try to buy the product, sign up as a reseller, then get a refund, RAP will not issue any more commissions to them.

    The biggest objection I hear to "customer only affiliate programs" is something to the effect of, "I want to be able to promote a good product quickly when I find it, and don't want to be forced to buy a copy first!" There are two ways to address this.

    First of all, vendors need to ask themselves, "Do I really want to have people promoting my product(s) who have only read the sales copy and don't have any experience with the product itself?" Unfortunately, unlike most "reasonable" marketing folks, IMers seem to think that anybody with a list is qualified to promote their products; first-hand knowledge of the products isn't necessary. I mean, why else help them out with a bunch of pre-written sales letters and stuff to make it easy-as-pie to promote your product without having to know anything about it? Try approaching any legitimate company and asking to be a reseller without knowing anything about their products / services and expecting them to kiss your feet and shovel money into your hands. It doesn't work that way! Most companies vet their resellers fairly carefully; the more successful they are, the more careful they are at signing up resellers. Just the opposite of the IM world ... and people wonder why there are so many hit-and-run scammers promoting crappy IM products.

    Second, when someone with known credentials approaches you to be a reseller, and you're using RAP and have a "customer only affiliate program" in place, there's a very simple solution: you sign them up as a "JV Partner", which is a feature built into RAP. They can even get a complimentary copy of the product to evaluate without you having to do anything!

    The point is ... why are people arguing for continuing to support a business model that's really built around encouraging people to game the system, instead of adopting more legitimate and robust business models?

    PayPal is a multi-billion dollar business. Why do people think they'd want to work with flakey business owners who, from all outward appearances, don't seem to understand the basics of how to run a legitimate business?

    Go into any retail establishment and look over every single product you see for sale and tell me how many of them promote their "reseller" program ANYWHERE? Yet you're standing in a store run by ... someone who makes money as a RESELLER! OMG!

    Anyway, the place to recruit EFFECTIVE resellers is NOT on your retail sales page. If you do, you're not attracting the people you want, and you ARE attracting a lot of the wrong kind of attention from folks like PayPal who do not like to work with people who don't understand basic business principles.
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    • Profile picture of the author rob corrigan
      Would it be an idea to offer affiliate programs through clickbank which acts as a processor rather than facing PayPal issues. Refunds are also taken care of by clickbank.
      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author SageSound
        Originally Posted by rob corrigan View Post

        Would it be an idea to offer affiliate programs through clickbank which acts as a processor rather than facing PayPal issues. Refunds are also taken care of by clickbank.
        Rob
        You seem to be under the misconception that PayPal has a problem with resellers.

        The problem they have is "promoting an opportunity" vs. "promoting a product". If you're paying 100% commissions, you're basically promoting an opportunity.

        Do you ever wonder WHY Clickbank won't allow you to pay >75% commissions? Maybe they don't want PayPal to shut THEM off either! But they also operate a gnat's hair away from being considered a "factor" by credit card processors, so they have to be really careful on anything that might cause them problems.

        Also, if you promote your reseller program on the sales page, you're BLATANTLY promoting an "opportunity".

        Again, why are people trying to argue for, and find new ways to basically shoot themselves in the foot?

        What's the problem with making a sales page about ONLY SELLING A PRODUCT?

        You can promote the reseller program on the download page, or via a follow-up email. Or if they like the product enough to contact you without buying, then you've probably found a great JV Partner!

        Why muddy the waters and risk getting your paychecks seized???
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        • Profile picture of the author rob corrigan
          I have no misconception about PayPal having a problem with resellers, I was simply asking if using clickbank to collect payments and also for affiliates would get around the problem that other warriors are clearly having.

          Rob

          Originally Posted by SageSound View Post

          You seem to be under the misconception that PayPal has a problem with resellers.

          The problem they have is "promoting an opportunity" vs. "promoting a product". If you're paying 100% commissions, you're basically promoting an opportunity.

          Do you ever wonder WHY Clickbank won't allow you to pay >75% commissions? Maybe they don't want PayPal to shut THEM off either! But they also operate a gnat's hair away from being considered a "factor" by credit card processors, so they have to be really careful on anything that might cause them problems.

          Also, if you promote your reseller program on the sales page, you're BLATANTLY promoting an "opportunity".

          Again, why are people trying to argue for, and find new ways to basically shoot themselves in the foot?

          What's the problem with making a sales page about ONLY SELLING A PRODUCT?

          You can promote the reseller program on the download page, or via a follow-up email. Or if they like the product enough to contact you without buying, then you've probably found a great JV Partner!

          Why muddy the waters and risk getting your paychecks seized???
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      • Profile picture of the author GooBingYah
        Just on the Debit Card subject.
        I was turned down for one and the reason given was PayPal do not issue debit cards outside of USA. And this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Warrior Forum.
        I understand Amazon have a similar payment gateway so if this is correct maybe this could be setup within WF?
        Gary
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  • Profile picture of the author akira07
    The discussion is really interesting.

    Now it comes to the decision that we can’t put our affiliate program info on the sales page. I really agree about this. If your product good, then you don’t need to worry about this change because real affiliate marketers will searching to your product affiliate program by themselves without you doing any effort.

    However, it seems we’re not done yet about OTO. Is there no change in how we’re bring buyer to OTO page? I found the new WSOs posted after this long discussion have no change in their OTO promotion.

    Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Bryan Mc
    I've read this entire thread and it's disappointing because the conclusions here are mostly based on theory, or he said, she said kind of stuff. There's a couple of points here:

    1. It seems this rule is being implemented with the sole purpose of appeasing Paypal, because we think that maybe having a mention of your affiliate program on your WSO thread is a cause for problem.

    First off I think it's a shame that this rule and those who enforce it will not distinguish between those promoting their affiliate program in such a way that it falls into the "buy this to sell this" category and a normal mention of an affiliate program and where to get details.

    I can sort of agree that, ok, the big flashy banners, maybe a little much... but if you want to put something in text somewhere in your FAQ post about your affiliate program, what's the real harm in that? That is basically the equivalent of an "affiliate program" link at the bottom of your normal sales page.

    Secondly, not everyone sells worthless "make money" guides as WSO's. I realize the majority of Warrior's do. But SOME of us sell software that clearly provide value and is useful to our customers. Anyone with half a brain can see that it's not a "buy this to sell this" kind of offer.

    Third point, not all of us use Paypal or Warrior Plus/JV Zoo to sell our WSO's. So first, saying that interested affiliates will just as easily find you in W+ or JV Zoo is wrong. Second, it seems the overwhelming reason for this rule is that Paypal "doesn't like" it. There's also some who've expressed that "well, you would never promote your aff program on your sales page anyway... why do it here"... kind of thing.

    So for those of us who already realize that every time you launch a WSO with Paypal you're taking an unnecessary risk - we don't use Paypal so we don't care what they think. And for those of you who think, well it's not good practice to promote your aff program in your WSO thread... great, that's your opinion, but it's doesn't warrant a blanket rule. I think the terrible copy most people who launch WSO's use is horrible practice and I'm sure you do too, but should we also ban bad copy?

    So I guess my real point is, for whatever it's worth... I don't think a blanket rule of not mentioning your affiliate program anywhere in your WSO thread is necessary. I think some responsible mention of your aff program should be allowed (perhaps limit it to normal sized text, no banners) especially for those of us who don't deal with Paypal.

    Just my 2 cents anyway...
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mark,
      ok, so it is a good practice not to mention that you have an affiliate program on your sales page so you don't appear to be selling an opportunity. Can you have a link in the footer of your sales's page to the affiliate program, or is it best not to even have any link on the sale's page? Thanks, for the answer to this question as I want to do all things honestly and ethically.
      People have been doing that for a long time with no problems. If all it is is a link at the bottom, I don't see it as being likely to create problems, personally, but I'm not a lawyer.

      There are other arguments for and against it. Most of the ones against including that sort of link seem to apply more in the online marketing field than in other niches.

      Greg,
      I've said for years, clean up WF.
      Well, not quite a year and a half, but anyway...

      It's easy to say stuff like that. Be specific about what you see as problems, and present specific suggestions for reducing them. As you have probably noticed, we act on specific suggestions.

      Bryan,
      1. It seems this rule is being implemented with the sole purpose of appeasing Paypal, because we think that maybe having a mention of your affiliate program on your WSO thread is a cause for problem.
      "Appease?" I think that's a rather loaded word, given the context involved.

      Paypal is a large consideration in this, but that's the short-term view. The more significant impact will be reducing the "Product as an opportunity" issue. And it will NOT just be a matter of perception. This will help cut down the stuff that's created just to sell here, and to recruit affiliates to pimp junk for quick commissions.

      How much? Hard to say. Here's what I see as likely, though: We fight with a few people over it, until they realize there's no way to get around it as written. Break the rule, the offer gets closed.

      Some folks will play other, smaller, games to try and beat it. They will also fail, but they'll bring the affiliate systems into the fight, and that will be an end to it.

      So, we'll see more people PMing others about promoting. Some will just blast them out willy-nilly, and end up banned for spamming. Some will take an intelligent approach, and find that they have to have something worthwhile to get folks on board.

      And then we'll see the private "groups" pushing each others' low-value products. Those will get sniffed out, and for the kinds of things I'm talking about, will usually involve email spamming and other approaches that can get people banned. And the one thing you cannot hide with affiliate promos here is the sales page.

      Will it get rid of all of this junk? No. There's no way to do that completely. But it will make a dent. And it will force legit sellers to learn things that will help them in all their business efforts, and get them thinking in ways that make it easier for them to build businesses that do not depend solely on WSOs.

      There's a little "open secret" that long-term members know, but newer folks may not: Neither Allen nor I like adding rules. (I haven't discussed this much with the other mods, so I can't speak for them on the subject. They may feel the same way. And adding rules also means more time spent enforcing them.)

      I don't take rules suggestions to Allen unless I see significant gains for the members that can't be achieved in some other way. And Allen doesn't create new rules or approve suggestions for them without seeing the same end result.

      This will be a short-term inconvenience for some sellers. In the long term, it's going to help everyone involved. The single most important change will be in forcing people to learn to recruit and retain affiliates and to network effectively in general.

      That will move them one step closer to running businesses that can survive and thrive outside the forum.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        I don't see what all the fuss is about.

        Warrior Forum identifies possible big risk to members' businesses.

        Warrior Forum introduces new rule to help reduce risk.

        Thank you Warrior Forum.

        End of story.


        Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Bryan Mc
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Bryan,"Appease?" I think that's a rather loaded word, given the context involved.

        Paul
        In context of Paypal, I don't think it's that far off... I understand your case though and can accept that. The only thing is that everyone knows that the people you're talking about are likely solely dependent on WF for their income. So when it's life or death, a policy like this will have little effect, if any. They'll do anything just to make sure they can pay their bills selling their junk products.

        I think what really should be in the conversation is a more thorough review/acceptance policy. First off, it should be a requirement that the product is set up and selling for a period of time on your OWN site before you can launch it as a WSO. Too many people launch their crappy WSO's with zero intention of ever selling them elsewhere. How is that exactly defined as a special offer then? By definition, that IS the offer.

        Stricter acceptance guidelines is, in my opinion, the only way to actually make a difference. Of course a large number of WSO's fall into the category we're talking about, so obviously that would affect the bottom line if it was harder to launch a WSO. There definitely wouldn't be as many WSO's launched with stricter quality guidelines.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Bryan,

          What you're proposing is impossible to police, especially with a membership as large as we have now. How would making impossible policy help anyone?

          I may reply to the rest of this later. This comment, however, needs addressing...
          Of course a large number of WSO's fall into the category we're talking about, so obviously that would affect the bottom line if it was harder to launch a WSO.
          Whose bottom line?

          The moderators wouldn't miss a beat. We'd all make more money if the WSO section just disappeared, because we wouldn't be spending time on it that we could spend on our own businesses.

          Not employees, remember?

          Here's a clue that might be helpful: Since 1999, when I first started moderating here (before there ever were WSOs), I do not recall Allen ever overriding a moderator's judgment on an ad, WSO or otherwise.

          I've known Allen for 15 years. In all that time, I have never known him to put his interests ahead of the members. Not once. It's his Prime Directive, and might explain why the place has done as well as it has.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Clough
    Here's what the deal is: Paypal is owned by eBay. Get it? I had been selling on eBay since the late 90's and it was terrific.....Paypal (I think) only charged about 1 - 1.5%.

    All was well.....you could sell anything back them. Including antique muskets (pre-1898) Then Meg Whitman go a hold of everything and it turned into crap! FYI...Meg Whitman now the CEO at HP, who is laying off 27,000 people. Get it?

    And since eBay is a California company, which has very weird laws, eBay stated to suck after about 2005......and then Paypal got bought out, and the rest is history. Best part was when eBay stopped letting "sellers" from leaving negative feedback....good one Meg!

    Anyway, I have a feeling Paypal does not like this forum, and it will most likely get worse.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Burritt
    Thank you Warriors for your thoughtful responses in this thread. It's been a bit laborious reading through all the posts, but overall enlightening.

    I definitely have learned from many of you here, and again, a reminder of the value of the Warrior Forum itself. There's no place quite like it on the net.

    Now in regards to Paypal, and best business practices, and the many burdensome worries...




    A little levity helps.

    Good luck,

    Jeff

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  • Profile picture of the author Challendge
    The best thing to do is to contact the right department at PayPal and notify them that you are going to get a large amount of sales coming in at around this day and it will all come in within a short period of time. Explain to them what you're selling, how it's beneficial, and why you will be getting this many sales.

    They will attach a note to your account and you are far less likely to encounter any issues.

    Before you come down on PayPal, you have to really sit back and actually grasp how many accounts are registered. Only then will your realize that, even though you may not be happy about it, you're not even close to their only customer. They simply write algorithms that crawl their service and freeze any account that could potentially be involved in any unusual activity. If you had a merchant account as large as PayPal's, you would do the same!

    Regardless of how us sellers feel, buyers love and feel comfortable with PayPal. Keep using it! Just do whatever is necessary to make sure that you have a smooth encounter

    Good luck Warriors!
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  • Profile picture of the author Bryan Mc
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    I've known Allen for 15 years. In all that time, I have never known him to put his interests ahead of the members. Not once. It's his Prime Directive, and might explain why the place has done as well as it has.
    Paul
    Paul,

    Just let me be in clear in saying that I was never insinuating that anyone is putting anything ahead of the members' best interest. I was just simply stating as a fact that there would be a lot less WSO's launched if the quality guidelines were stricter, which would be a good thing, except in terms of lost revenue. We're both business-minded people. You agree that nobody wants to slash the revenue their site generates. WF is a shining example of incredible business thinking, innovation and execution.

    I realize that what I'm proposing would be difficult to enforce, fine but there's definitely something to be done about the number of low quality offers launched as special offers. Especially those who aren't special offers at all because they don't sell anywhere else. Without higher quality standards AND the ability to enforce them, I don't see how this addressed in any substantive way. Which was my main point in regards to your earlier response to me about this new policy...

    But it's definitely a hassle for everyone involved... that's for sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author cofton25
    As a member mentioned earlier Paypal is not a bank, it is an acquirer, performing payment processing for online vendors, auction sites, and other commercial users, for which it charges a fee.
    Good job it’s not a bank otherwise it would be shut down within seconds, if you read the small print it’s a wonder anyone actually lets them hold onto your cash at all, they can freeze your account for up to 180 days. And if you go to Paypalsucks.com the horror stories are enough to scare any seller away.

    Paypal has earned it’s huge share of the market by protecting buyers, buyers do feel very safe because they pretty much know that if they are unhappy then Paypal will generally side with the buyer, they have to protect the buyer otherwise they wouldn’t exist. Although it’s sellers that earn them their cash they actually don’t give a flying **** about sellers, especially sellers that sell downloads or ebooks, these type of products give them loads of hassle and man hours and man hours cost them money which they are quite fond of ;-)

    What we must also understand is that since 2002 Paypal became a wholly owned subsidiary of Ebay and as such as Ebay no longer allow downloads or emailed ebooks then Paypal generally feel the same. Ebay got sick of intangible products because it created loads of man hours proving delivery etc etc so they made the decision not to allow these products and all ebooks now have to be sent by post on a CD.
    Ebay and Paypal are hugely successful and they did this by being cute with their purse strings, Ebay don’t even police their own site sufficiently and they continue to rely on their members to report issues.

    Given the choice I would never use Paypal, they are not fair to sellers, they rarely listen and (like Ebay) will just take unnecessary action without even contacting you about the issue. BUT unfortunately as sellers we have to use whatever means our buyers feels safe with and most buyers do feel safe with Paypal and most have an account with them.

    The only advice I would give is to withdraw your funds as soon as you can so if they do (in their wisdom) decide to hold on to YOUR cash then their won’t be much for them to hold on to ! Although I have heard stories of them taking back funds when you have withdrawn ! (see Paypalsucks)

    No Paypal are not fair but they are the big players and we need them…..and unfortunately they know that
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    • Profile picture of the author JST3P
      I'm going to address a few points individually. I'll preface this by saying I know PayPal inside and out, been with them since 99, and I read paypalsucks.com before I signed up for PP, and I occasionally still go back for a laugh. As stated by other members, every PP horror story seems to involve people who make a fundamental mistake of one kind or another and then blame PP. Most of these sellers mean well, but fail to read the user agreement and AUP until they run into a problem and then blame PP for making them abide by the policies they agreed to when signing up. They say "Cumon, no one reads that and you know it." Well, you're the seller. That's your choice not to research what you're singing on to but you can't blame PP because you didn't read it. The PP user agreement is written in plain English (not legalese), and though disgruntled users call it fine print, it's actually in a normal paragraph sized font.

      Originally Posted by cofton25 View Post

      As a member mentioned earlier Paypal is not a bank, it is an acquirer, performing payment processing for online vendors, auction sites, and other commercial users, for which it charges a fee.
      Good job it’s not a bank otherwise it would be shut down within seconds, if you read the small print it’s a wonder anyone actually lets them hold onto your cash at all, they can freeze your account for up to 180 days. And if you go to Paypalsucks.com the horror stories are enough to scare any seller away.
      It's true that funds may be held for 180 days if a seller gets a high limitation with no appeal. Getting high limited with no appeal is nothing that would ever by accident, though it could happen by neglect of not responding to requests for information or documentation. We could argue back and forth all day on anecdotal stories, but the thing that skewers all these arguments is the fact that any and all of this can happen with a merchant account with any of the processors and those services cost a ton more and offer no seller protection at all. Credit card companies only represent the buyer and will charge back for almost any reason. The protection PP offers to sellers of tangible goods exceeds anything a merchant account offers. The same is 10 fold for sellers of digital goods since they are not covered for buyer protection at all.

      Paypal has earned it’s huge share of the market by protecting buyers, buyers do feel very safe because they pretty much know that if they are unhappy then Paypal will generally side with the buyer, they have to protect the buyer otherwise they wouldn’t exist. Although it’s sellers that earn them their cash they actually don’t give a flying **** about sellers, especially sellers that sell downloads or ebooks, these type of products give them loads of hassle and man hours and man hours cost them money which they are quite fond of ;-)
      PP has earned it's share of the market by offering an easy and secure way to buy and sell online without exposing financial information to sellers.

      Your comments about what types of product cost more man hours is just false. The man hours are the same regardless of the item and digital goods like ebooks take less man hours since they are not covered. All a seller has to do is respond that this is a digital or virtual item, and the buyer loses their claim. This a much less labor-costing claim than a tangible item claim where PP is going to be requesting information, reviewing the claim, asking for documents, reviewing the documents and verifying the information, etc etc. These claims are much more expensive for PP to process.

      What we must also understand is that since 2002 Paypal became a wholly owned subsidiary of Ebay and as such as Ebay no longer allow downloads or emailed ebooks then Paypal generally feel the same.

      Ebay got sick of intangible products because it created loads of man hours proving delivery etc etc so they made the decision not to allow these products and all ebooks now have to be sent by post on a CD.
      Again, absolutely false. eBay not allowing intangible item sales is their effort to protect the marketplace and it's reputation as a secure way to buy and sell. The digital goods market is inherently more risky as disputes, claims, chargebacks and reversals are many times more common and there is no way to truly verify whether or not a buyer has received their item. (Not to mention that the digital goods market is saturated with "MLM, pyramid scheme and get rich quick" products, which make any marketplace look shady to most buyers, and thus decreases consumer confidence and thus, sales.)

      PayPal has no problem with digital goods sales. If PP "felt" the way describe then clickbank wouldn't exist as you know it. Can you imagine Apple posting online complaining about how unfair PP is, allowing them to make millions of dollars per month on the sale of digital goods?


      Ebay and Paypal are hugely successful and they did this by being cute with their purse strings, Ebay don’t even police their own site sufficiently and they continue to rely on their members to report issues.

      Given the choice I would never use Paypal, they are not fair to sellers, they rarely listen and (like Ebay) will just take unnecessary action without even contacting you about the issue. BUT unfortunately as sellers we have to use whatever means our buyers feels safe with and most buyers do feel safe with Paypal and most have an account with them.

      The only advice I would give is to withdraw your funds as soon as you can so if they do (in their wisdom) decide to hold on to YOUR cash then their won’t be much for them to hold on to !
      WARNING TO SELLERS! This is terrible advice! One of the things fraud systems and human reviews will find suspicious is explosive growth and quick exiting of funds. This is a high-risk indicator of fraud and money laundering. It will also not get you "off the hook" for running afoul (or as sometimes happens, just plain unfortunate situations) because if your account gets limited and you fail to resolve buyer complaints, PP may be forced to refund many of your buyers. If you took the money and ran, your account will go negative, then charged off to collections who will eventually find your number and you know how that goes.


      Although I have heard stories of them taking back funds when you have withdrawn ! (see Paypalsucks)
      See above.

      If you keep records, are honest, read what you agree to, sell a real product that people actually want to buy without regretting it afterwards and seek some impartial advice (meaning not just listening to vocal complainers who represent less than 1 percent of PP users) then you can easily run millions of dollars through your account, many people/businesses do this monthly.

      The people most often on the wrong end of a limited account are the "casual" business users who just want to sell a few things and don't bother to read the rules before playing the game and get themselves in trouble or the deliberate fraudsters and rip off artists/MLM scammers.

      Every time I've seen a genuine story of someone getting screwed over and said to myself "this is just wrong" it's been because one of the two parties has figured out some kind of con or scam and ripped the other party off. But these scams are not the fault of PP, they are the fault of shady people doing shady things to steal money and they can happen with any merchant account.

      A merchant account offers no seller protection, costs a lot more, comes with up front costs, almost always include up front reserves or rolling reserves and have monthly fees on top of transactional percentages. And every complaint people have about PayPal is equally, or more usually, much more common with a merchant account.

      And THIS is why PP has it's good reputation and huge market share.
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      • Profile picture of the author cofton25
        Firstly I think most people do actually sign up with Paypal without reading the terms and conditions, this is because PP is regarded as an 'industry standard' and accepted as being safe, and because they have millions of users, and is offered on nearly every purchasing platform, and because everyone knows someone who uses it, and all these points tell us that it's safe and fair whether you're a buyer or seller.

        Like any viral or referral marketing if enough people tell you the sky is green you will eventually believe them, it's only when you start thinking outside the box and become experienced you look at the other options available and then you read the small print and realise you've been a little gullible.

        You seem intent in bigging up Paypal and not identifying their flaws. By the way, are you a Paypal employee ?

        For me, any payment provider that tells me they can hold onto MY money for up to 180 days 'without appeal' is not really what I'm looking for and I would make sure I didn't leave my cash with them for long. As I said most newcomers don't read this small print because they think everyone uses them so everything will be okay, when in reality it's not okay and clauses like this are unfair.

        Are you sure you're not a Paypal employee ? lol

        Working with PayPal isn't like working with your credit card company; you don't have the same rights or protections. PayPal may decide that you have a fraudulent account or payment and suspend your account without warning, in effect shutting down your online store until they decide to reopen it. Although these instances are statistically rare, you should be aware of them.

        Are you sure you're not a Paypal employee ?

        Experienced sellers tend to favour Clickbank or 2Checkout in my opinion, they feel safer knowing that their accounts rarely get frozen. Best maybe start with Paypal and then when your sales increase go with one of the many others out there. Paypal is easy and your funds go direct into your account but this is useless if they ever decide to freeze your account. Paypal is easy the others are smarter in my opinion.

        My comment that digital products and downloads created too many man hours is not false at all, it is absolutely accurate and I know this from a conversation I had with an Ebay employee. Because of the huge amount of digital products that were being sold on Ebay this created so many support requests which varied from newbies not being able to open attachments.... to people being unsatisfied with the product... to people who denied receipt of the product.... and numerous other petty things... it became unmanageable and hence their decision not to allow this anymore. And to a certain extent this is understandable and isn't rocket science, so not sure how you can accuse me of making a 'false' statement when it is clearly correct.

        Are you sure you're not a Paypal employee ?

        Cons of Using PayPal
        • PayPal's Seller Protection policies do not cover digital goods.
        • There are hefty fees for chargebacks.
        • You are limited in terms of use and are subject to account suspension at any time which can result in frozen funds for months.
        • It can take four business days for withdrawn funds to clear in your bank account.
        • There are a number of people who refuse to use PayPal, which may result in lost business.
        • It can be difficult to contact PayPal's customer service department.

        When Paypal make any changes or introduce new rules they always use the phrase 'it's an effort to protect the marketplace'... yes maybe (just maybe) they are right sometimes but generally it is to protect Paypal and make them even more profitable.

        Oh and by the way Clickbank would survive without Paypal because they have their own payment platform.

        Are you sure you're not a Paypal employee ? :-)

        Withdrawing your funds regularly from Paypal IS NOT terrible advice, I repeat NOT terrible advice, ask any experienced seller and they will tell you the same. Leave some in there but pull the majority out into a safe account where the fund cannot be frozen for '180 days without appeal'... yes you read that right 'without appeal'. This guy must be working for Paypal lol
        I am not saying PP is all bad, when starting out it is ideal if you know the conditions, in fact it is the easiest to start with, I just think there are far better out there. Due to Ebay and PP being as one and the same company, PP have increased their market share as everyone who goes on Ebay has to have Paypal.
        Now this rule in itself is wrong too. Why should someone who goes on Ebay be told they HAVE TO have Paypal ? Now I know it is advisable to have Paypal purely because most sellers accept it and it is easy but shouldn't everyone have a choice how they pay their own cash? Shouldn't everyone have the choice to pay how they want? Of course they should. Talk about creating a monopoly.

        'And THIS is why PP has it's good reputation and huge market share.'

        Huge market yes. Good reputation ? I'm not so sure from a sellers point of view.

        Are you sure you're not a Paypal employee ? :-)



        Originally Posted by JST3P View Post

        I'm going to address a few points individually. I'll preface this by saying I know PayPal inside and out, been with them since 99, and I read paypalsucks.com before I signed up for PP, and I occasionally still go back for a laugh. As stated by other members, every PP horror story seems to involve people who make a fundamental mistake of one kind or another and then blame PP. Most of these sellers mean well, but fail to read the user agreement and AUP until they run into a problem and then blame PP for making them abide by the policies they agreed to when signing up. They say "Cumon, no one reads that and you know it." Well, you're the seller. That's your choice not to research what you're singing on to but you can't blame PP because you didn't read it. The PP user agreement is written in plain English (not legalese), and though disgruntled users call it fine print, it's actually in a normal paragraph sized font.



        It's true that funds may be held for 180 days if a seller gets a high limitation with no appeal. Getting high limited with no appeal is nothing that would ever by accident, though it could happen by neglect of not responding to requests for information or documentation. We could argue back and forth all day on anecdotal stories, but the thing that skewers all these arguments is the fact that any and all of this can happen with a merchant account with any of the processors and those services cost a ton more and offer no seller protection at all. Credit card companies only represent the buyer and will charge back for almost any reason. The protection PP offers to sellers of tangible goods exceeds anything a merchant account offers. The same is 10 fold for sellers of digital goods since they are not covered for buyer protection at all.

        PP has earned it's share of the market by offering an easy and secure way to buy and sell online without exposing financial information to sellers.

        Your comments about what types of product cost more man hours is just false. The man hours are the same regardless of the item and digital goods like ebooks take less man hours since they are not covered. All a seller has to do is respond that this is a digital or virtual item, and the buyer loses their claim. This a much less labor-costing claim than a tangible item claim where PP is going to be requesting information, reviewing the claim, asking for documents, reviewing the documents and verifying the information, etc etc. These claims are much more expensive for PP to process.

        Again, absolutely false. eBay not allowing intangible item sales is their effort to protect the marketplace and it's reputation as a secure way to buy and sell. The digital goods market is inherently more risky as disputes, claims, chargebacks and reversals are many times more common and there is no way to truly verify whether or not a buyer has received their item. (Not to mention that the digital goods market is saturated with "MLM, pyramid scheme and get rich quick" products, which make any marketplace look shady to most buyers, and thus decreases consumer confidence and thus, sales.)

        PayPal has no problem with digital goods sales. If PP "felt" the way describe then clickbank wouldn't exist as you know it. Can you imagine Apple posting online complaining about how unfair PP is, allowing them to make millions of dollars per month on the sale of digital goods?

        WARNING TO SELLERS! This is terrible advice! One of the things fraud systems and human reviews will find suspicious is explosive growth and quick exiting of funds. This is a high-risk indicator of fraud and money laundering. It will also not get you "off the hook" for running afoul (or as sometimes happens, just plain unfortunate situations) because if your account gets limited and you fail to resolve buyer complaints, PP may be forced to refund many of your buyers. If you took the money and ran, your account will go negative, then charged off to collections who will eventually find your number and you know how that goes.
        See above.

        If you keep records, are honest, read what you agree to, sell a real product that people actually want to buy without regretting it afterwards and seek some impartial advice (meaning not just listening to vocal complainers who represent less than 1 percent of PP users) then you can easily run millions of dollars through your account, many people/businesses do this monthly.

        The people most often on the wrong end of a limited account are the "casual" business users who just want to sell a few things and don't bother to read the rules before playing the game and get themselves in trouble or the deliberate fraudsters and rip off artists/MLM scammers.

        Every time I've seen a genuine story of someone getting screwed over and said to myself "this is just wrong" it's been because one of the two parties has figured out some kind of con or scam and ripped the other party off. But these scams are not the fault of PP, they are the fault of shady people doing shady things to steal money and they can happen with any merchant account.

        A merchant account offers no seller protection, costs a lot more, comes with up front costs, almost always include up front reserves or rolling reserves and have monthly fees on top of transactional percentages. And every complaint people have about PayPal is equally, or more usually, much more common with a merchant account.

        And THIS is why PP has it's good reputation and huge market share.
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        • Profile picture of the author JST3P
          Originally Posted by cofton25 View Post

          Firstly I think most people do actually sign up with Paypal without reading the terms and conditions, this is because PP is regarded as an ‘industry standard’ and accepted as being safe, and because they have millions of users, and is offered on nearly every purchasing platform, and because everyone knows someone who uses it, and all these points tell us that it’s safe and fair whether you’re a buyer or seller.
          Again, you are the seller, it's your choice to not read what you're agreeing to but your liability is greater than the buyer's. This is just a fact of life. PP is a US company, forced to abide by US Consumer Protection laws. There are no US Seller Protection laws, really. That's just a benefit of the service.

          Like any viral or referral marketing if enough people tell you the sky is green you will eventually believe them, it’s only when you start thinking outside the box and become experienced you look at the other options available and then you read the small print and realise you’ve been a little gullible.

          You seem intent in bigging up Paypal and not identifying their flaws. By the way, are you a Paypal employee ?
          If I were a PP employee, would that make anything I say less true, or more? It's easy enough to figure out if I'm not telling the truth, read the user agreement and the AUP. For validation of things like best practices that aren't in the user agreement but might be advice I give or just my opinion, you can verify that too. Just call up Digital River or any other large ecommerce solutions provider, pay them a consulting fee and ask them!

          For me, any payment provider that tells me they can hold onto MY money for up to 180 days ‘without appeal’ is not really what I’m looking for and I would make sure I didn’t leave my cash with them for long. As I said most newcomers don’t read this small print because they think everyone uses them so everything will be okay, when in reality it’s not okay and clauses like this are unfair.
          Again, this is true of any processor, and in the case of the big names like FDMS, not only will you be subject to holds and reserves, you can be subject to them up front. Call them and ask! You might have to front thousands of dollars that they will hold for a period of time. It could be six months (180 days). And the other fees added on mean you have less protection as a seller and pay more for it.

          Are you sure you’re not a Paypal employee ? lol
          See above. If I were, it would mean I know what I'm talking about because I've got a foot on both sides of the fence. If I were a PP employee, I guess you might be able to make the an argument that I'm just trying to sell you on using PP. So let me head that one off right here:

          I don't care one whit what payment processor anyone uses. I am motivated by 2 things here; 1) helping sellers avoid problems by knowing the facts and 2) correcting some of the disinformation that gets repeated over and over as gospel by a few disgruntled and vocal people. This bad info causes a lot of sellers to assume the horror stories are true and so when they decide to take the risk they don't even read about the seller protection policies because they have already been told (falsely) that there is none.

          Personally, it makes no difference to me or to PP. They would do just fine if the entire digital products world, including Apple, Kindle, etc, left their service all together. (I'm sure they wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't really hurt them much and would actually have some benefits in regards to consumer confidence in the market.)

          Working with PayPal isn’t like working with your credit card company; you don’t have the same rights or protections. PayPal may decide that you have a fraudulent account or payment and suspend your account without warning, in effect shutting down your online store until they decide to reopen it. Although these instances are statistically rare, you should be aware of them.
          But what you're failing to point out is that these same things can happen with any processor, and further it's true that you don't have "the same" rights as a seller on PP. You have more. Next time you get a credit card charge back (outside of PP) for an unauthorized transaction from a buyer of a tangible good, try calling up Visa with your tracking number showing delivery and see if they say "Oh, nevermind, you can prove delivery to the buyer so here's your money back." Good luck.


          Are you sure you’re not a Paypal employee ?
          You're really hung up on this point. Since you probably know if I were, I wouldn't want to announce it. But for the sake of argument, just assume that I am. Get that out of the way, so you can focus on the information I'm giving you. As I said above, it's easy to verify.


          Experienced sellers tend to favour Clickbank or 2Checkout in my opinion, they feel safer knowing that their accounts rarely get frozen. Best maybe start with Paypal and then when your sales increase go with one of the many others out there. Paypal is easy and your funds go direct into your account but this is useless if they ever decide to freeze your account. Paypal is easy the others are smarter in my opinion.
          This is reasonable. I really don't care if anyone uses PP or not, but I can't stand seeing misinformation and half truths spread with an authoritative voice when I know what is fact and so can anyone who wants to read.

          My comment that digital products and downloads created too many man hours is not false at all, it is absolutely accurate and I know this from a conversation I had with an Ebay employee. Because of the huge amount of digital products that were being sold on Ebay this created so many support requests which varied from newbies not being able to open attachments.... to people being unsatisfied with the product... to people who denied receipt of the product.... and numerous other petty things... it became unmanageable and hence their decision not to allow this anymore. And to a certain extent this is understandable and isn’t rocket science, so not sure how you can accuse me of making a ‘false’ statement when it is clearly correct.
          Well, now we're conflating two things, eBay and PP. I'm talking about PP, not eBay. PP is owned by eBay, but they are two different companies with different policies and different protections. (And seller protection comes from PP, not eBay.)

          It still remains true that what you said about man hours is just not true of PP. If I misconstrued what you said about eBay in applying to to PP, I apologize. But you did say that PP "feels" the same way about digital goods as eBay, and this is simply untrue, ie; false.

          Are you sure you’re not a Paypal employee ?
          See above. Assume that I am. Hell, assume that I'm here to drum up IM business for PP (an absurd thing to think!). It doesn't change the facts, the policies or how easy it is to verify them.

          Cons of Using PayPal
          • PayPal's Seller Protection policies do not cover digital goods.
          Same is true of any payment processor, and they cost more.
          • There are hefty fees for chargebacks.
          The chargeback fee is $20, PP eats the rest for you. Processing directly with a merchant account would mean you'd pay the whole fee yourself. So your statement is half-true, if $20 is a hefty fee

          • You are limited in terms of use and are subject to account suspension at any time which can result in frozen funds for months.
          Again, the same is true of any processor.

          • It can take four business days for withdrawn funds to clear in your bank account.
          This is a function of your bank, not PP. The same is true no matter who you process with. Bank transfers (ACH) always takes 3-5 days in the US, 5 to 10 in Canada.

          • There are a number of people who refuse to use PayPal, which may result in lost business.
          Can't argue with that. There are a lot of people who don't believe in banks and keep their money hidden in the walls of their apartment or buried in the back yard too. I'm not basing a business model selling to them.

          • It can be difficult to contact PayPal's customer service department.
          Well, this is a matter of pure opinion, but they are a lot easier to get to than eBay lol. It was PP that convinced eBay to put a phone number on their website and start taking calls. They never wanted to do that (and it's still hard to find!). PP drove that change because they said to eBay "You have to be transparent and talk to your customers, you can't just do it all through email."

          When Paypal make any changes or introduce new rules they always use the phrase ‘it’s an effort to protect the marketplace’... yes maybe (just maybe) they are right sometimes but generally it is to protect Paypal and make them even more profitable.
          This is the argument of a disgruntled customer. Of course PP is going to protect itself, doing so protects it's customers, it's market and it's profitability. Blaming a company for protecting itself is a little silly, IMO.


          Oh and by the way Clickbank would survive without Paypal because they have their own payment platform.
          I didn't say they wouldn't survive, I said they wouldn't exist as you know them today. Their ability to take PP payments is a huge reason for their success.

          Are you sure you’re not a Paypal employee ? :-)


          Withdrawing your funds regularly from Paypal IS NOT terrible advice, I repeat NOT terrible advice, ask any experienced seller and they will tell you the same. Leave some in there but pull the majority out into a safe account where the fund cannot be frozen for ‘180 days without appeal’... yes you read that right ‘without appeal’. This guy must be working for Paypal lol
          Edited to add: I want to clarify something here, lest other readers get confused. It is not bad advice to "withdraw your funds regularly". It is bad advice, however, to quickly exit funds from your account if there has been a sudden influx of cash. This is (as I stated previously) a high risk indicator for fraud. Explosive Growth in and of itself can cause your account to be reviewed, explosive growth followd by a quit exit of funds is going to make the scrutiny of your account that much more intense. -- This is the price you pay for all the other services and savings you're getting. I keep referring to regular merchant account CC processors as being more expensive, the other side is that they're harder to get approved for. There are credit checks, you may be required to provide proof of invoices, proof of your identity, fax in supplier information, etc etc. With PP you sign up and you're up and running. Because of this, PP wouldn't be doing it's due diligence if it turned a blind eye to suspicious activity or risky indicators. So if you run into this situation, what will PayPal require? The same info you would have to provide up front to a regular processor, some of which I just listed. So record keeping is important to making sure you can deal with a limitation or restriction if it comes up. So again, you're sill in a better position because you would have had to provide that info just to get approved to pay many times more with a regular processor. PP is a no brainer, that's why everyone from clickbank to wallmart takes payment with PP. But clickbank and wallmart probably keep good records, get advice on how to manage their accounts and don't turn into chicken little when they read some anecdotal horror tale on the internet which may or may not include the facts of the situation.

          I am not saying PP is all bad, when starting out it is ideal if you know the conditions, in fact it is the easiest to start with, I just think there are far better out there. Due to Ebay and PP being as one and the same company, PP have increased their market share as everyone who goes on Ebay has to have Paypal.
          Now this rule in itself is wrong too. Why should someone who goes on Ebay be told they HAVE TO have Paypal ? Now I know it is advisable to have Paypal purely because most sellers accept it and it is easy but shouldn’t everyone have a choice how they pay their own cash? Shouldn’t everyone have the choice to pay how they want? Of course they should. Talk about creating a monopoly.
          Some of this is true, some not, most of it is your opinion. eBay sellers can and do take payments by means other than PP. You are not forced to use PP to receive payment. There are even people posting their auctions using moneybookers (good luck there!)
          ‘And THIS is why PP has it's good reputation and huge market share.’

          Huge market yes. Good reputation ? I’m not so sure from a sellers point of view.
          Again, opinion. The feeling among sellers is not nearly as positive as it is with buyers, this is true. And again, this is true of any payment processor because buyers have the legal preferential treatment of consumer protection laws. That is our world as a seller. If you could find a payment processor that always protected the seller over the buyer, feel free to use them but I doubt any of your customers will!


          Are you sure you’re not a Paypal employee ? :-)[/QUOTE]

          Get over it, man. Assume that I am, doubt everything I say and check my facts. I implore you!
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    Well the question begs, how much money coming into your PayPal account sets off these alarms? Does PayPal realize that these frozen funds might be needed for paying important bills like rent, mortgage, health care?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    In my opinion, there's a commonality between those that run into trouble with PayPal...

    They run low end offers less than $30 even as low as $5 - $7 then pitch products on webinars and through other channels for MUCH higher prices from the same group of people. It makes it look like a classic pattern PayPal has seen which may have caused them problems in the past.

    It's PayPal's job to help protect themselves by assessing risk, I'm not surprised they would question something like this, I think anyone in their right mind would.

    I know some people take in massive amounts of money in one day (think WSO of the day) then try to take a large portion out right away. Usually, this is at the same time some initial refund requests are being made (per the guarantee on your sales page). So they see refunds being sent and a large amount of money trying to be transferred out.

    If you're going to sell significantly higher priced stuff, it may be wise to get a new business name, get a new EIN number, and open a second account which you're allowed to do.

    That way, this new account will be 'conditioned' to accept higher payments and you may not see trouble.
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  • Profile picture of the author ejunkie
    Oh boy, tell me about it!

    I just spent 2 days emailing... calling (international calls at that)...

    Almost had a heart attack dealing with them... but finally it was resolved. What a relief!

    In my case, it was actually because there is a lot of issues paying & receiving money in my country through them.

    Their customer care kept telling me to call them later because the relevant department wasn't available & stuff (!).... I am sure this time my phone bill is going to give me a mild heart attack.

    Great thread. Lot of info & insights to take home from here.
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  • Profile picture of the author cofton25
    Although we don’t agree on many things I have to congratulate you on a professional, detailed and honest reply. I have the utmost respect for anyone who replies in a polite manner, with dignity and with honesty.

    My replies of ‘are you sure you’re not a PP employee’ were meant in jest and just a childish poke at you because we disagree….. I apologise for that but I was merely in that kind of mood and I didn’t mean to be disrespectful.

    I still do not think some of your views are entirely accurate but it is quite obvious that you genuinely believe what you are saying just as I do in the points that I have highlighted.

    I have read your comments in with interest and I will do more research as there are some points you have raised that I need to check out in more detail.

    If someone has raised points which I am not entirely sure or makes me think twice or re assess then I am happy to look at in more detail and then I will either apologise and say I was wrong or I will reply with more information which sustains my opinion.

    It was a pleasure to read such a detailed and solid reply, I may not agree with you but I have respect for an honest and interesting opinion especially when written in a respectful manner (well most of it J (joke) )

    Respect to you and thank you for making me want to dig deeper, regardless of whether or not I feel you are right or wrong I have no problem doing more research.

    Win some or learn some (hopefully for both of us)
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    • Profile picture of the author JST3P
      Thanks for your cordiality, crofton25!

      And yes, if you find info you think contradicts or doesn't jive with anything I've said I'm happy to look at it and we can discuss! I don't claim to be always right about everything, and will certainly look at anything I haven't seen or considered. Reading paypalsucks.com is to hear only one side of a story without any way to verify the claims being made.

      Like I said, I just want to clear up the myths and misconceptions that float around. Particularly for sellers who have a higher risk and greater liability when selling online.

      Eventually, I might be able to make a product or service out it, so no, I'm not entirely altruistic here!
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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        I never had any problems with Paypal so far and all my clients come from this forum, can it have to do with number of refunds perhaps in case you're selling a wso? I had to refund maybe 4-5 times in 5 months so guess that is still acceptable. Actually I didnt have to refund but sometimes you're better of making no problem out of it.
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        • Profile picture of the author cofton25
          I agree it is best to refund when requested, when potential buyers hear that you do refund if they are not happy then it just helps them make the decision to buy. Most genuine buyers only refund if they are unhappy with the purchase, it could be for many reasons but they will always buy future products from you knowing that they have your satisfaction guarantee.
          The buyers who regularly get refunds are either lazy or what I call 'tire kickers', they just want to look and see what you're offering and have no intention of taking action..... do you really want these on your list ? Just refund them and if they keep doing it then remove them from your list, simple. You have retained your reputation and kept to your word of your satisfaction guarantee, Clickbank became successful by giving every buyer the security of a refund as default, I think as professional sellers we should do the same as default.
          If any seller has far too many refund requests then maybe the product was just not good enough and it's then back to the drawing board, the buyers are happy they got their cash back and the seller has learned the lesson that we can't put rubbish products out there.
          In my opinion always honour any refund request, if you've priced your product correctly and your refund requests are a sensible ratio to successful sales then the refunds will not harm your campaign


          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          I never had any problems with Paypal so far and all my clients come from this forum, can it have to do with number of refunds perhaps in case you're selling a wso? I had to refund maybe 4-5 times in 5 months so guess that is still acceptable. Actually I didnt have to refund but sometimes you're better of making no problem out of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    You know this really should be taken as an opportunity to examine the digital market here and elsewhere too, if Paypal considers some of these products to be on the edge of what is legal or even a grey area where some might consider it to be unethical, perhaps the products that are offered here should be examined for quality.

    Certainly there has been an attempt at Click Bank to develop an approval process that will produce a higher quality product, (though you could make an argument that the over all quality of products at click bank is not really that good at all)

    Still the process of offering quality products in any venue, (forum, freestanding, road side stand) should be something that is not only considered but implemented because decisions are often something that if you continue to put them off eventually someone else will come in and make that decision for you.

    Quality is something that will likely be the driving force behind what ever happens in the future between Paypal and the Marketing community.

    We can see this, but so far it appears that there are at least a few that prefer to wait and see what happens, I can only see on ending in that situation.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnLeonard
    I love this thread....information, opinions and no bashing...

    I didnt think I would have anything to add and was just going to read and enjoy and learn....However...

    I have been using paypal and putting quite a bit through it for a while now with no issues...

    Additionally I have had a regular merchant account.....

    Here is a story from the other side of the coin.....

    Paypal collect money from sales for me and when I transfer it to my account it takes 48 hours every time (unless there is a holiday)

    My merchant account which it with a swiped credit card from a client or entered into the system routinely takes 20 days! Thats right I don't get the money for 20 days....And they charge 2.5% on ever transaction + $30/month......

    I recently requested that my merchant account be closed ad the 20 days has been stretching to 23 and 27 days.....And I have never had a chargeback or even a declined swipe in 3 years.....

    Upon cancelling my merchant account they, 30 days after cancelling charged me for another months service and informed me that the money that was due to be deposited into my business bank account for FEBRUARY would not be available until JULY20!

    Can you believe it?

    So saying paypal can do what they want because they are not a bank is incorrect.....Banks can do what they want as well because they are a bank.....

    I have never had a problem with Paypal (knock on wood) But I have also never stepped over the line....

    I feel that a long as you are compliant and honest you'll be ok and it they want to know something just tell them the truth...Don't avoid them or skirt their questions ....

    Its really not that hard!
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    OMG! I was over at another site looking for what was being sold, clicked a link, it took me to a WSO that had this at the top of it:

    "For offers posted after May 26, 2012, you may not promote your affiliate program within a WSO thread. For a general explanation, see the discussion starting with this post.

    (Posted 5/26/2012)

    Click on the red X to dismiss this notice. Thank you."

    When I clicked the link "with this post" it took me to my own thread which is this one! Far reacheth the WF!

    Had no idea this thread had that much impact. I'm a cartoonist, fine artist, writer, and content creator and all I did was ask a simple question and lo and behold the best and brightest in IM showed up. The past two weeks I have to admit have been the best in WF IM for me so far. Never had any luck with WF but keep meeting people who know what they're doing and even started JVing with Shay Rockhold and a few others. Gaining momentum and now I see that the last thing I need to do is build my lists and affiliates. I have non IM websites loaded with fans of my books and other stuff so I needed to examine and tap that market as well. In a few months when I go onstage doing more stand-up comedy I'm really expecting to pull in more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Greg,

      Calm down, dude. That was the result of WillR's suggestion. Had nada to do with you. Allen used one of the vBulletin tools to make sure people were aware of the change.

      You can keep making generic complaints, or you can do something useful and be specific about what you see as problems. Note that the latter are always looked at, while the former get treated like the leprous loudness they really are.

      Do something useful, or just gripe pointlessly. Your choice.


      Paul

      PS: I would prefer not to have to point out the difference between generic noise and useful specificity too much more often...
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      • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
        I'm a bit late to this party, but let me chime in with a couple of insights:

        1. PayPal is especially leery of products that appear to be little more than excuses that seek to legitimize bizopps and other money-making systems. The anti-pyramid selling, get rich quick and multi-level marketing provisions of its Acceptable Use Policy are fairly clear on this point.

        2. It's also wary of "closed" or "customer only" affiliate programs that require participants to purchase the product for their own use before they can become affiliates. This is perfectly reasonable, since this is one of the first tests for identifying illegal pyramid selling schemes in most countries, including the USA. This type of program is ILLEGAL in most countries, so don't expect PayPal to adopt anything but a zero-tolerance position in respect of these programs. (By the way, this was the real cause of Jon Leger's PayPal account being frozen shortly after release of the $7 Secrets Script — the sales letter template and a couple of other standard templates talked specifically about this kind of program and offered it as an option to any purchaser wanting to use it. To the best of my knowledge, this option is still part of the $7 Secrets Script package. I'm not sure whether it's still part of RAP's offering — perhaps Sid could enlighten us?)

        3. An excellent alternative to PayPal as a payment processor is PayMate.com, which is older than PayPal and defeated PayPal's attempt to impose monopoly conditions on eBay sellers in Australia a couple of years back as a test case. (PayMate holds an Australian Financial Services Provider license. PayPal doesn't.) PayPal then approached PayMate to become its official alternative payment processor in the USA. PayMate does NOT hold or freeze funds — it operates a straight-through payment system, depositing the buyer's funds directly into your nominated bank account. (It also fights — and wins — chargebacks on behalf of merchants and its customer service reps are well-informed and co-operative.) PayMate also accepts payments from China.

        The key to avoiding problems with your PayPal account is understanding PayPal's position and policies and maintaining good communications. Unfortunately, PayPal's AUP doesn't make for easy reading or implementation. Some of its definitions are either vague or unreasonably broad.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          I'm a bit late to this party
          Typical for an Old Guy, John.

          Thank you, sir. Some excellent points, a few of which I hadn't known before this. Good stuff.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
            Yeah... just welcomed grandchild #10 last month. Everything's getting slow and creaky.

            I forgot to mention, too, that PayMate was eBay's original payment processor in Australia before eBay ever acquired PayPal.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              John,
              Yeah... just welcomed grandchild #10 last month.
              Damn, dude. #1 doesn't seem all that long ago.

              Where do the years go, Grandpa?


              Paul

              PS: Congratulations, John!
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              • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
                Tell me about it! But, then, we've been mates for 15 years now. Scary!

                Here are my Qute Quartet (#7-10):
                http://kick-start-your-business.com/about-us/john-who/
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  John,

                  They're bee-yooo-tiful! Clearly they take after the maternal side of the family.

                  But then, you picked grandma, so you had a hand in helping them along those lines. Feh. No room to poke at you on that one, suh.

                  One way or t'other, a family to be proud of, John. Good on ya, brothah!


                  Paul

                  PS (I remember how proud you were about #1. It's good to see you're just as proud of #10!)
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        • Profile picture of the author cofton25
          John

          Firstly loved reading your About You page and as Paul said, beautiful children, you are indeed a very lucky man !

          I must show my ignorance and say I was not familiar with Paymate, they look very interesting, can UK sellers use them in the UK ?

          Originally Posted by profitclinic View Post

          I'm a bit late to this party, but let me chime in with a couple of insights:

          1. PayPal is especially leery of products that appear to be little more than excuses that seek to legitimize bizopps and other money-making systems. The anti-pyramid selling, get rich quick and multi-level marketing provisions of its Acceptable Use Policy are fairly clear on this point.

          2. It's also wary of "closed" or "customer only" affiliate programs that require participants to purchase the product for their own use before they can become affiliates. This is perfectly reasonable, since this is one of the first tests for identifying illegal pyramid selling schemes in most countries, including the USA. This type of program is ILLEGAL in most countries, so don't expect PayPal to adopt anything but a zero-tolerance position in respect of these programs. (By the way, this was the real cause of Jon Leger's PayPal account being frozen shortly after release of the $7 Secrets Script -- the sales letter template and a couple of other standard templates talked specifically about this kind of program and offered it as an option to any purchaser wanting to use it. To the best of my knowledge, this option is still part of the $7 Secrets Script package. I'm not sure whether it's still part of RAP's offering -- perhaps Sid could enlighten us?)

          3. An excellent alternative to PayPal as a payment processor is PayMate.com, which is older than PayPal and defeated PayPal's attempt to impose monopoly conditions on eBay sellers in Australia a couple of years back as a test case. (PayMate holds an Australian Financial Services Provider license. PayPal doesn't.) PayPal then approached PayMate to become its official alternative payment processor in the USA and Canada. PayMate does NOT hold or freeze funds -- it operates a straight-through payment system, depositing the buyer's funds directly into your nominated bank account. (It also fights -- and wins -- chargebacks on behalf of merchants and its customer service reps are well-informed and co-operative.) PayMate also accepts payments from China.

          The key to avoiding problems with your PayPal account is understanding PayPal's position and policies and maintaining good communications. Unfortunately, PayPal's AUP doesn't make for easy reading or implementation. Some of its definitions are either vague or unreasonably broad.
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          • Profile picture of the author houseofgar
            Originally Posted by cofton25 View Post

            John

            Firstly loved reading your About You page and as Paul said, beautiful children, you are indeed a very lucky man !

            I must show my ignorance and say I was not familiar with Paymate, they look very interesting, can UK sellers use them in the UK ?
            Hey. thank you for the tip on Paymate! I am definately going to look into this as an alternative
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      • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Greg,

        Calm down, dude. That was the result of WillR's suggestion. Had nada to do with you. Allen used one of the vBulletin tools to make sure people were aware of the change.

        You can keep making generic complaints, or you can do something useful and be specific about what you see as problems. Note that the latter are always looked at, while the former get treated like the leprous loudness they really are.

        Do something useful, or just gripe pointlessly. Your choice.


        Paul

        PS: I would prefer not to have to point out the difference between generic noise and useful specificity too much more often...
        Scuze me, you owe me an apology and I want it now. You come into this thread accusing people of things that aren't true. I made no complaint but here you are for the THIRD time with your BS. You have a problem with me take it to PMs or somewhere else. I asked a question that started this thread.

        How your disturbed intellect extrapolated the negative nonsense is the clear indicator of what you really are and your true intentions Myers. Read about people like you in college in psychology.

        If anyone around here is dishing out nebulous bs it's you.
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        • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
          Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

          Scuze me, you owe me an apology and I want it now. You come into this thread accusing people of things that aren't true. I made no complaint but here you are for the THIRD time with your BS. You have a problem with me take it to PMs or somewhere else. I asked a question that started this thread.

          How your disturbed intellect extrapolated the negative nonsense is the clear indicator of what you really are and your true intentions Myers. Read about people like you in college in psychology.

          If anyone around here is dishing out nebulous bs it's you.
          One of the perennial problems with textual environments like this is the lack of visual social cues like facial expressions, body language, plus vocal inflection, etc. While smileys can help, it's still far too easy for sensitive egos to take umbrage and react hastily.

          From where I sit, this has been blown waaaaay out of proportion. I'm not about to try to put words in Paul's mouth, but I can tell you that you're entirely wrong in your superficial assessment of Paul and his motives. You should feel relieved that he's balanced, fair and objective in his own assessments -- a necessary and highly desirable quality in a very senior moderator of the Warrior Forum. (I'm not sure I'd be rashly pulling the nose hairs from a dozing 1000 pound gorilla. Not by the handful, anyway.)

          My own reading of the thread is this: your comments about the new policy implemented by Allen can be viewed as laying claim to a positive change that, as Paul points out, was the direct consequence of a post by another member. I can see where it would be easy to read Pauls subsequent comment about generic complaints versus affirmative action or suggestion as a personal inference, but that's really a case of "if the cap fits, wear it". I don't see it as an implied personal criticism of you; rather, I see it as a generalised statement about options.

          Time for more light and less heat around here as far as I'm concerned.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Originally Posted by profitclinic View Post


            Time for more light and less heat around here as far as I'm concerned.
            Stick around and don't be a stranger. We definitely could benefit from more people like you posting.
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          • Profile picture of the author cofton25
            Even in textual environments one can show basic manners and Paul was not polite in his reply at all.

            I have no 'sensitive ego' at all and if it was me who Paul replied to in that manner then I would expect an apology (which I note Paul has not yet done).

            If you you didn't see the post as being directed at Greg then you are reading a different post to everyone else. If you see it as 'a generalised statement about options' then why didn't Paul just post a general reply and not address his
            post 'Greg'. It is quite obvious Paul was directing all of his words at Greg.

            I know you and Paul are friends but that does not mean you have to defend his post when it was clearly out of order and he should know better.

            I don't know Greg at all but this is about forum etiquette, in fact just basic manners in any arena. I don't care if it's a forum moderator, a member with 20,000 posts, a new member or my best pal.... good manners are good manners, plain and simple.

            I think your comment 'Time for more light and less heat around here as far as I'm concerned' should be directed at Paul and no one else.

            Originally Posted by profitclinic View Post

            One of the perennial problems with textual environments like this is the lack of visual social cues like facial expressions, body language, plus vocal inflection, etc. While smileys can help, it's still far too easy for sensitive egos to take umbrage and react hastily.

            From where I sit, this has been blown waaaaay out of proportion.

            I don't see it as an implied personal criticism of you; rather, I see it as a generalised statement about options.

            Time for more light and less heat around here as far as I'm concerned.
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            • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
              Originally Posted by Cofton25

              Even in textual environments one can show basic manners and Paul was not polite in his reply at all.

              I have no 'sensitive ego' at all and if it was me who Paul replied to in that manner then I would expect an apology (which I note Paul has not yet done).

              If you you didn't see the post as being directed at Greg then you are reading a different post to everyone else. If you see it as 'a generalised statement about options' then why didn't Paul just post a general reply and not address his
              post 'Greg'. It is quite obvious Paul was directing all of his words at Greg.

              I know you and Paul are friends but that does not mean you have to defend his post when it was clearly out of order and he should know better.

              I don't know Greg at all but this is about forum etiquette, in fact just basic manners in any arena. I don't care if it's a forum moderator, a member with 20,000 posts, a new member or my best pal.... good manners are good manners, plain and simple.

              I think your comment 'Time for more light and less heat around here as far as I'm concerned' should be directed at Paul and no one else.
              It would be better if you didn't extrapolate a single, specific reference in my post to apply to the entire post:

              Originally Posted by profitclinic

              I can see where it would be easy to read Pauls subsequent comment about generic complaints versus affirmative action or suggestion as a personal inference, but that's really a case of "if the cap fits, wear it". I don't see it as an implied personal criticism of you; rather, I see it as a generalised statement about options.
              For the record, I was referring to that instance, not to the entire post. While the use of the second person singular in this paragraph of Paul's post can be inferred to apply to a specific individual, a more impersonal and general inference is more likely (try substituting the impersonal pronoun "one" for "you" and it makes even more sense -- although it becomes stilted). The final sentence confirms this as the more likely meaning:

              Originally Posted by Paul Myers

              You can keep making generic complaints, or you can do something useful and be specific about what you see as problems. Note that the latter are always looked at, while the former get treated like the leprous loudness they really are.

              Do something useful, or just gripe pointlessly. Your choice.
              If you see my response as being a defence based solely on friendship, then you don't know Paul or me, clearly. I was responding as an experienced global moderator and admin of marketing and sales forums and discussion lists who not only understands where Paul is coming from, but fully supports his position based on long personal experience.

              Our friendship is coincidental to the discussion, not causative. (Mind you, if push comes to shove, there's no-one I'd rather have at my back than Paul Myers, and I'd like to think he could rely equally on me. But this is hardly a brawl; it's more of a minor misunderstanding.)

              I stand by my comment about heat versus light. As a reliable rule of thumb, it's more likely to apply to the side of a dispute from which the righteous indignation, line-drawing and other displays of emotion and slighted ego are coming.
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              • Profile picture of the author cofton25
                I remain with my post, good manners are good manners no matter which arena and no matter how well you know the person.
                And in my opinion I didn't regard Pauls post as polite, if his comments were indeed warranted in any way then they did not belong to this thread. Just read all of Gregs posts in this particular thread and I am sure you will agree.

                Another member pointed out that maybe I didn't know about context and previous history between Greg & Paul and this is true. But as I said in a previous post if I had any issues with a particular member then I would PM that perosn or I would post my comments in the thread where we had the original issue, NOT in a totally different thread where there is no context and history. This is why I am surprised why someone as experienced as Paul took the stance as to post such
                comments in a thread where it didn't belong.

                No you're right of course I don't know you or Paul personally, very few people really know anyone in a forum environment, very often we live on different continents and never meet. All most forum relationships have to go on is textual communications and banter which doesn't really let you get to know anyone really well. We can all be a totally different personality in a textual environment,
                therefore genuine friendships based on solely written communications are very rare (in my opinion of course).

                I think how well I know you or Paul is irrelevant as most users of any forum can only go by written replies/opinions/views.... we can only make an opinion or judgement on the views of the written word and nothing else.

                I am not quite sure what your comment 'righteous indignation, line-drawing and other displays of emotion and slighted ego are coming' means or is referring to. My command of the English language is moderate/good but maybe you could just simplify this comment for me and elaborate so I can understand?

                I think we should just generally agree to disagree, we have both more or less said we remain with what we both think and sometimes there is nothing more either of us can say to change each others mind. As you said in your last post 'this is hardly a brawl' (with or without Paul at yourt back ;-) (Joke) and life is too short to bicker.

                Best regards
                Cofton25

                Originally Posted by profitclinic View Post

                It would be better if you didn't extrapolate a single, specific reference in my post to apply to the entire post:



                For the record, I was referring to that instance, not to the entire post. While the use of the second person singular in this paragraph of Paul's post can be inferred to apply to a specific individual, a more impersonal and general inference is more likely (try substituting the impersonal pronoun "one" for "you" and it makes even more sense -- although it becomes stilted). The final sentence confirms this as the more likely meaning:



                If you see my response as being a defence based solely on friendship, then you don't know Paul or me, clearly. I was responding as an experienced global moderator and admin of marketing and sales forums and discussion lists who not only understands where Paul is coming from, but fully supports his position based on long personal experience.

                Our friendship is coincidental to the discussion, not causative. (Mind you, if push comes to shove, there's no-one I'd rather have at my back than Paul Myers, and I'd like to think he could rely equally on me. But this is hardly a brawl; it's more of a minor misunderstanding.)

                I stand by my comment about heat versus light. As a reliable rule of thumb, it's more likely to apply to the side of a dispute from which the righteous indignation, line-drawing and other displays of emotion and slighted ego are coming.
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                • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
                  I agree -- we're each coming from very different perspectives on a situation that, in the overall context of the topic, has been blown out of proportion. That was not my intention and I really see no point in continuing it.

                  So by all means, let's just agree to disagree. I acknowledge that we're unlikely to see eye-to-eye on the matter, given our respective positions and past experiences, and I respect your attitude and conduct of the exchange -- at no point has it deteriorated from an honest presentation of opposing views.

                  Thanks for keeping it courteous and reasoned.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Greg,
          You come into this thread accusing people of things that aren't true.
          You made a comment the other day to the effect that you had been complaining for years that we needed to clean things up around here. And that is true, as far as it goes. You've suggested that repeatedly, but you have not, that I can recall, made any specific recommendations for improvements.

          I commented in that thread, and repeated in this one, that we're always looking for specific practical ideas to reduce problems and make things better for the members.

          With the exception of that recurring theme, your posts are generally very positive and constructive. But on that topic... Not so much. Your intentions are good, certainly, but if you hammer the same point over and over, you should expect that to color the responses you get.

          I'm pretty well done with allowing the generic complaints. From anyone. They are destructive in nature and effect, regardless of the intent, and they serve no useful purpose.


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      • Profile picture of the author cofton25
        I have to say Paul that I think your post in reply to Greg was totally uncalled for. I have read read each and every post form Evolbaby (Greg) and none of them are what I call 'generic complaints'.

        Greg started this thread and the thread has highlighted many issues and useful replies, maybe you should be thanking him for starting the thread rather telling him to 'do something useful'.

        He did do something useful by starting this thread, no 'pointless gripe' there, just an important subject and judging by the amount of replies a subject that needs to be discussed. Isn't the WF here for us to discuss important subjects and collate all views?
        If you have an issue with a WF member then do it privately and not in the thread.

        I think you should apologise to Greg in this thread immediately.

        Good manners cost nothing and if I'm honest I think you should know better.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Greg,

        Calm down, dude. That was the result of WillR's suggestion. Had nada to do with you. Allen used one of the vBulletin tools to make sure people were aware of the change.

        You can keep making generic complaints, or you can do something useful and be specific about what you see as problems. Note that the latter are always looked at, while the former get treated like the leprous loudness they really are.

        Do something useful, or just gripe pointlessly. Your choice.


        Paul

        PS: I would prefer not to have to point out the difference between generic noise and useful specificity too much more often...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mrowlet
    I just had to do a chargeback because I paid $3000 and did not get what was promised for coaching, and he refused to return my money--I had to go thru my bank.

    Maybe I caused this.
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  • Profile picture of the author cofton25
    Sometimes 'generic complaints' are necessary, they are often not destructive at all and they can be useful, they create discussion and debate, they fuel ideas, improvements and solutions..... sometimes it is necessaryto 'hammer the same point over and over' to get things done, sometimes it's the onlyway to spark action (especially if the same points have been ignored or not actioned previously or correctly).

    If a member's posts are 'generally very positive and constructive' then my view is
    that we should give them some slack instead of accusing them of 'griping pointlessly' when in effect what they are really doing it highlighting something that many others also find frustrating and nothing has been done about it.

    When a WF member highlights any issue, they do not necessarily have to make any 'specific recommendations for improvements' sometimes the pure action of bringing the issue to the forum is just the start of the improvement/solution process.

    We must realise that making any improvements does not necessarily have to come from the messenger, one of the many uses of any forum is to identify problems/issues and then hope that other members/moderators can put forth ideas and solutions.
    What they shouldn't do is ridicule a member for trying to bring it to the front.

    If a WF member hammers a point over and over again then could it mean that not enough has been done about the issue? Just a thought......
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      If a WF member hammers a point over and over again then could it mean that not enough has been done about the issue? Just a thought......
      Possibly. It could also be that they're not really making any point at all. Or that they're not being specific enough for anything to be done to address their concerns, assuming those concerns are valid and stated in an accurate way.

      In this case, the stated complaint is that the forum needs to "clean up its act." We have rules to keep out the known problem issues that can be predicted in advance. We regularly fine tune those, and add to or clarify them based on changes in the situation. Most importantly, we have systems in place for people to report problems, and we act on those reports.

      Generic comments like "Clean up your act" aren't helpful at all. They just add to the culture of bashing that's become too common in this industry. And they accomplish nothing.

      Specific suggestions, on the other hand, get listened to. We've heard most of them over the years, but not all, as evidenced by Will's suggestion. And we act on the new ones that are practical and which present some likelihood of a positive change.
      We must realise that making any improvements does not necessarily have to come from the messenger, one of the many uses of any forum is to identify problems/issues and then hope that other members/moderators can put forth ideas and solutions.
      Sure. Which problem do you see as being specifically addressable based on the suggestion, "clean up your act?"

      If you can't even point to a specific problem, but keep saying the same untranslatable thing over and over, how is that useful?

      I've asked Greg to tell me what he thinks is wrong, and I don't recall getting any answer that points to anything concrete. If it is about a specific offer or practice that would violate rule #1, he's welcome to PM me with the info.

      Crickets.

      He is not the only person who beats this drum without offering any ideas for solutions. There is a cottage industry of bashing the forum without saying anything useful in the process. (Not Greg's intent, to be sure, but some folks do it just for the sake of hearing themselves rant.)

      That is actively destructive. I'm done with it.

      Useful suggestions, though? Bring 'em. The more, the merrier. And we do take them very seriously.


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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
    Useful suggestion: STOP allowing WSOs from anyone who will pay $40 to post them.

    Require that the WSO be an actual product, already for sale elsewhere. Not a BETA product people have to pay to TEST.

    This will stop the retarded 'launch' frenzy that the WSO forum has become - it used to be for 'special offers', now it's the first (and often ONLY) stop for releasing a product.

    This will of course cut into WF profits - but IMO is a useful suggestion that needs considered.
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    • Profile picture of the author cofton25
      Not sure how the WF could do this but the quality of some WSOs certainly seem like no one in the WF has even read them. Many, many times the WSO and even WSO Of The Day says the product will do this, this and that etc etc and it's just complete garbage... how many times has an offer been rewarded with WSO of the day and it's total rehashed rubbish ?

      Would be nice to work out a way to stop rubbish being awarded a WSO Of The Day

      Originally Posted by Ken Reno View Post

      Useful suggestion: STOP allowing WSOs from anyone who will pay $40 to post them.

      Require that the WSO be an actual product, already for sale elsewhere. Not a BETA product people have to pay to TEST.

      This will stop the retarded 'launch' frenzy that the WSO forum has become - it used to be for 'special offers', now it's the first (and often ONLY) stop for releasing a product.

      This will of course cut into WF profits - but IMO is a useful suggestion that needs considered.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
        Originally Posted by cofton25 View Post

        Not sure how the WF could do this but the quality of some WSOs certainly seem like no one in the WF has even read them. Many, many times the WSO and even WSO Of The Day says the product will do this, this and that etc etc and it's just complete garbage... how many times has an offer been rewarded with WSO of the day and it's total rehashed rubbish ?

        Would be nice to work out a way to stop rubbish being awarded a WSO Of The Day
        Well as stated many times on the forum here...the WSO Of The Day is chosen by a single individual, Mike Lantz, the owner of warriorplus.com, and that decision has nothing at all to do with the Warrior Forum.

        If anyone recommends a WSO to you, and it doesn't deliver, then you have to question their next recommendation. It would be hard for them to consistently recommend products that are rubbish - because you wouldn't buy again after the first or second time.

        So ask questions on WSOs before you purchase, and look for people whos recommendations you can trust.

        Also keep in mind that if you have to pick a WSO every single day of the year to be WSO of the Day - statistically there are simply going to be products that don't perform - nobody is perfect.
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        • Profile picture of the author cofton25
          Yes you're right Ken, isn't it ironic that a WARRIOR Special Offer of the Day is chosen by someone who has nothing to do with the forum where the Special Offer is posted lol..... never ceases to amaze me

          Originally Posted by Ken Reno View Post

          Well as stated many times on the forum here...the WSO Of The Day is chosen by a single individual, Mike Lantz, the owner of warriorplus.com, and that decision has nothing at all to do with the Warrior Forum.

          If anyone recommends a WSO to you, and it doesn't deliver, then you have to question their next recommendation. It would be hard for them to consistently recommend products that are rubbish - because you wouldn't buy again after the first or second time.

          So ask questions on WSOs before you purchase, and look for people whos recommendations you can trust.

          Also keep in mind that if you have to pick a WSO every single day of the year to be WSO of the Day - statistically there are simply going to be products that don't perform - nobody is perfect.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Reno
            Originally Posted by cofton25 View Post

            Yes you're right Ken, isn't it ironic that a WARRIOR Special Offer of the Day is chosen by someone who has nothing to do with the forum where the Special Offer is posted lol..... never ceases to amaze me
            haha yep! Some days I want to be in Mike Lantz shoes...his vision transformed the industry...other days...I see exactly how hard it is to pick WSO 'winners' consistently - winners in any market for that matter...it's not as easy at it may appear that's for sure!
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ken,

    I wouldn't mind that, but I suspect a lot of sellers would. And the WSO section is unlikely to ever go back to the old ways.

    Even in the old daze, it was only for a short period that it was required that a product be for sale somewhere else. If we tried enforcing that now, I can tell you exactly how they'd get around it: Post an offer elsewhere, even though they'd never driven any traffic to it, and point to that page.

    How do we prove anything in that situation?

    We discussed the idea of putting in time limits and post minimums, but that was shot down because the real problem children would just buy "aged accounts," and look even more legit when posting than the newer members. And many of the offers from newer members are fine, as-is.

    If we push people into a black market, we can't be surprised if they cut other corners.

    The principle you're promoting is a very good one. The question is, how to make it happen in a way that accomplishes the goal, rather than the reverse.


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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Cofton25,

    The other thing that's missing in a thread like this is context and history.

    For example, if I called you an a$$ in this thread, that would be completely uncalled for. We have no history that would explain my behavior, so one would assume I was just being rude to you.

    Now imagine if you and I had a conversation last month where you called my momma fat, among other unpleasant adjectives. If I walked into this thread and said you were an a$$, it probably would look rude and uncalled for. But for those who knew our history, they might see it as acceptable for me to call you a name since you poked fun at my mom.

    Why? Because of context and history.