New rule for WSO sellers

by 80 replies
124
The following has been added to the rules for the WSO section:

For those who wonder, that means no mention at all. Not in separate posts, not as part of the FAQs, and not in links to it from anywhere within the threads.

Note that links in your signature are fine, as those do not show in the WSO section. Thus, they're separate from the sales copy.

This is NOT meant to discourage people from recruiting affiliates for their offers. It is simply intended to separate the affiliate programs from the products being promoted. It has gotten to the point at which it seems as though the affiliate program is, for many offers, the big reason to buy the product.

That's not an appropriate way to sell a product.


Paul

PS: If you really like this new rule, do not thank me. Scroll down to WillR's post and thank him. He's the one who suggested it. I just relayed it to Allen, and he approved it.

Will's idea, folks. Credit where it's due.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #rule #sellers #wso
  • Banned
    You might want to make this a Sticky Thread temporarily Paul.

    Just a suggestion, otherwise this will likely slide down the page pretty quickly.

    Best,


    Mark Andrews
  • Woohoo. Great rule and well overdue.

    Thanks to the powers at be.

    To all those affiliates out there, it's simple. Bookmark the main affiliate marketplace pages on the most popular networks like Warrior Plus and JVZoo. As soon as you see an offer you would like to promote search for that product/vendor in the relevant marketplace and away you go.

    There are also free sites like WarriorJV.com (started by a fellow Warrior) that announce a lot of the bigger upcoming launches BEFORE they happen so you can keep ahead of things that way.
    • [ 50 ] Thanks
  • Mark,

    Fear not. We have a Plan.


    Paul
  • Thanks for sharing Paul.
    Rajiv
    • [1] reply
    • First big question on it, although I'm not sure why it wasn't asked here directly:

      How are we supposed to get affiliates if we can't advertise for them in our WSOs?

      Go for it, folks. Help the lady out. I may jump in later, but I haven't run a paid WSO since mid-2010. Might be best to let the more current experience start the discussion.


      Paul
      • [3] replies
  • Rajiv,

    Part of it has been asked and answered, but the focus of that thread was different. I think it warrants a separate discussion.


    Paul
  • This is why I like this forum so much. When things become an issue, or rather, someone suggests something that simply makes sense... boom its changed!

    I whole-heartily agree with this change and feel it makes the WSO section all the better.
  • Ok. So I can't even write, for example, "You can find our affiliate program at Warrior Plus" (not linked of course) in the WSO thread?
    • [2] replies
    • Jimmy,Well, you could. You'd find your WSO closed pretty quickly if it was reported, but you could do that...


      Paul
      • [ 2 ] Thanks
      • [1] reply

    • And just to add, if someone hasn't said it already, the big affiliates you'd want promoting your offer are going to know it's on Warrior Plus since it will be pretty obvious by looking at your buy button what affiliate program you're using. It's obvious, and no need to advertise it in your WSO thread.

      I think this is a great rule. Your products will be listed on the affiliate program sites anyway, and those active affiliates will be requesting your offer if they want to promote by scrolling through the offers on those sites or simply by seeing your buy button.

      It's really a non-issue.
  • I personally think it is an over-reaction in my opinion and the decision has taken the issue from one extreme to the other.

    I think the big a** affiliate banner was a bit of overkill (and I have not used it) as was the blatant in your face promotion for affiliates in the thread.

    However, putting a basic question in your FAQ's such as How Do I Become An Affiliate "CLICK HERE" (hyperlinked to your JV Page)....come on!!

    Happy to play by the rules....but some common sense.

    You can imagine WSO vendors will now get posts in their threads about it which they will then have to answer via PM...one problem fixed...another one created.

    Just sayin....

    Cheers

    Anton
    • [2] replies
    • Anton,Read the other thread. A potentially small and infrequent problem, vs a potentially large and income-stopping issue.

      More work for the mods. Possibly fewer closed-down Paypal accounts for the vendors. We'll take those odds.


      Paul
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • [DELETED]
      • [1] reply

    • Anton, nice to see you here.

      Here's my opinion.

      Do I really care about having an affiliate who can't obviously tell that I'm using JVZoo or Warrior Plus just by looking at my buy button? I mean, talk about spoon feeding. I"d like an affiliate that actually takes an effort. Any affiliate who wants to promote your product can take 5 seconds to look at your sales page and/or click on the buy link to figure out what affiliate program you're using. I don't see it as an issue, at all.

      And the whole reason has to do with reports that paypal takes a dim view of recruiting affiliates within the sales page and thread.
  • Sometimes I do wonder what people waste their time over, creating a rule to stop something that frankly I have never really noticed as much of a problem.

    Most Warrior Vendors will put the affiliate request links inside their download pages which is fine and still unaffected by these rules I guess.

    I am not sure why people would want to put the affiliate links in the sales page anyway as by the time the product goes live, if they haven't got that sorted already then they have got their launch methodology a bit out of focus.

    As to the question about how to get affiliates up front and without promotion on the sales page, that also is simple, get off your a$$ and make friends, network, build relations and do it the right way.

    Yet again I see rules being made for no big reason but turned into a big deal for the sake of it. Totally pointless...just like waiting until your sales page is live to look for affiliates...

    Much Ado About Nothing!
    • [2] replies
    • Nice one, to the powers of this forum.

      Paul, can you sort out that there can be a road named after me

      Matt Morgan Boulavard

      Well done both of you, in finding this rule, and making it happen.
    • Tony,

      Get over yourself, dude. We really don't LIKE to make rules, and we don't do it unless there's a real benefit to the members. The fact that you don't 'get' that benefit is of little concern to us.

      To me, none.

      Read the other thread, please. If you still don't get it, I can find someone who can recommend appropriate remedial business classes in the UK, I suspect.

      The suggestion about networking is, however, well-placed. Thanks for that. Excellent advice.


      Paul
      • [1] reply
  • I think WSO Creator should not mention about Affiliate program. It doesn't help him in any way.

    .
  • Yep, sums it up nicely, don't give a stuff about perspectives, don't care about balanced discussions, seems slightly unreasonable myself when in fact I never stated that it was wrong, I never stated that people should do that, I just stated that I had never seen it as a problem before and it seems a bit over the top too me.

    I don't need to get over myself, I am perfectly on track, in the right mindset and making money with or without this rule so to me, it is trivial as is your insults and condescension. I feel that it is you that 'needs to get over yourself' haha
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • Tony,Then why are you here?

      What works for you, in your business, may be in conflict with what we see as working for the benefit of our members. Like, oh, for example, reducing the odds of them getting their Paypal accounts shut down.

      I have no horse in the race, junior. I don't sell anything through the WSO section, and I am not affected by this new rule. At all. I didn't suggest the rule or make it a reality.

      If you want condescension, though, I can probably manage a bit of it. I've been an active member here for something like 30 times as long as you, and dealt with at least 500 people with the same mindset about the forum and its rules. Probably a lot more than that.

      Your Cluemeter on this topic is on empty. Perhaps you might consider sticking to the many things about which you know something more than nothing?


      Paul
      • [ 6 ] Thanks
      • [1] reply
  • People have gotten shut down over this issue, so this is a step in the right direction.

    If we try to put ourselves in PayPal's shoes, it makes perfect sense too.

    Consider the WSO teaching people how to create WSO's in order to cash in on them, and there is an affiliate link in the bottom of that. Folks are selling the opportunity and the affiliate opportunity, rather than selling the education, which walks very close to the "forbidden line" from the FTC.

    This is a good rule that will in the end save a lot of people from getting their PayPal accounts shut down.

    Tony, I like you, but this was far more common that you are acknowledging in your posts. It was a problem, and good people were getting put out of business, because of PayPal's concern about this practice.
    • [ 3 ] Thanks
  • As I understand things, WSOs are meant to be products that could be bought elsewhere, but are offered at the Warrior Forum for some sort of warrior-only discount.

    It seems that the majority of products are made to only sell as a WSO. Perhaps it's time to put a stop to this?

    People who submit WSOs that are fundamentally crap would be pushed out of the WSO space.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • Ronny,Some percentage, certainly. Our challenge is knowing which ones, specifically. And then ruling out the ones that don't carry value outside the forum.

      The rules are pretty specific, and as long as "only available to visitors to the forum" or "costs more to everyone else" fits, we're not easily able to nuke them.

      The market, both inside and outside the forum, has changed enough that the old ways of handling such things no longer apply. Or can apply.


      Paul
  • Thank you Will and thank you Paul for putting this rule in place.

    Anything the forum authorities can do to minimize risk with our accounts is appreciated!
    • [2] replies

    • Paul was just the messenger.

      Will and Allen were the two who brought this to fruition.
      • [ 2 ] Thanks
    • The problem now is the "sell this product to make money with this make-money product" as part of a sales page for a WSO.

      Some sellers will add a new OTO promoting/incentivizing the affiliate aspect as a work around to the new rule.

      If the "buy now" link in a WSO leads to an OTO about selling as an affiliate - is the risk to sellers and to the WF removed or relocated? I don't know.

      kay
      • [1] reply
  • I'm very glad this rule has been put in place. Will thanks for bringing it up and Paul for taking it to Allen for approval.

    Now if we can just get rid of the WSO's on how to do a WSO we'd be taking another step in the right direction.
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    • [1] reply
    • This is an important point, as they are some of the most circular products around. At least I haven't yet seen a WSO about doing a WSO teaching others to do a WSO.
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      • [1] reply
  • Paul,

    I realise that this applies to WSO's posted after the date you mentioned, but surely it would make sense to remove any mention to affiliate programs in WSO's that are currently running?

    If the risk is having your Paypal account suspended because of it, I would rather remove it off my current WSOs.

    Di
    • [2] replies
    • I don't have a dog in this race (have never run an affiliate program through a
      WSO) so this is my totally unbiased opinion on the issue.

      Promoting your affiliate program within the WSO thread itself has lead to
      problems, all of which have been documented and explained, including serious
      problems such as a PayPal account being closed.

      To me, this is a REAL problem. The last thing I would want is to have my PayPal
      account closed down.

      Therefore, for that one reason alone, I am 100% behind this rule. To me, it is
      a no brainer.

      Will it be a 100% absolutely fool proof way to prevent problems? Of course not.
      There will be people who will find ways around it and still get their accounts
      shut down or worse.

      Why?

      Because when you run an open affiliate program (something I will NEVER do)
      you run the risk of getting jackasses as affiliates who will literally make your
      life a living hell through a variety of means that I won't get into here because
      I don't want to give anybody any ideas.

      This new rule GREATLY reduces the risks. It doesn't eliminate them, but it
      reduces them.

      I have been burned terribly by affiliates so I am speaking from experience.

      Will, thank you for suggesting such a great rule and thank you to Allen for
      instituting it.

      And with that, I will go back into hibernation over at the OT Forum.
      • [1] reply
    • Having been apprised of the potentially serious consequences
      the smart ones will. The others... well... that's just God's way
      of thinning the herd!
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  • These conversations in this thread and the other make me wonder how PayPal would look at PLR and MRR. Reselling products and affiliate programs are both somewhat similar.
    • [1] reply
    • As a PLR creator/seller, I've talked to PayPal several times about this. It is not the same thing, depending on how you are doing it. In my case, 99% of what I sell is non-transferable. I am not giving a product that the buyer can turn around and sell as is. PayPal has absolutely no problem with this business model.

      When it may become a problem is if the focus is on giving the buyer a business selling the same package as is being sold to them. I'm sure you've seen the packages where the emphasis is on taking that entire package and turning around and reselling it?

      Any time you see a sales page that puts the emphasis on the product being a turnkey business, just turn around and resell it, you are risking your account. That's not to say you can't sell this type of package, but your sales copy should emphasize how useful the actual products are and how much the buyer can learn/do with the products.

      With the new policies on business opportunities from the FTC, selling a turnkey package must walk a fine line now anyway.

      A lot of what may or may not earn suspicion from PayPal is found in your copy. Sell the actual value of the product or package to the buyer, not the money to be made by reselling said product or package.
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      • [1] reply
  • Smart move.

    Now if only income claims were banned too....
  • Will, Allen... and Paul,

    Thank you for fixing the problem.

    Things were starting to spin a bit out of control... the affiliate program notices were getting bigger and BIGGER all the time!

    (It's no wonder that PayPal doesn't like the practice.)

    John
  • As a copywriter, I would HIGHLY recommend AGAINST putting your affiliate program details in the sales letter anyway. The salesletter is a mechanism designed to disguise and alleviate the fact that you are being sold to. It's meant to take focus away from the money-making part on the vendor side and shift it to the value receiving part on the buyer side. Slapping a big old affiliate notice at the bottom is NOT going to do you any favors conversion-wise. I'm surprised that this is the kind of thing that needed a rule, because I'd bet my favorite hat that if you tested it, you'd sell more leaving it out.
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    • [1] reply
    • Ah, the voice of reason and logic. Yeah, that too Colin.
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  • Thats too bad - promoting an affiliate program through a WSO was a killer way to get top notch affiliates quickly
    • [1] reply
    • No, that's probably the stupidest ways to get top notch affiliates. You presume "top notch" affiliates are browsing the warrior forum to see what is for sale? Do you think with the resources available to top notch affiliates, that this method would be anywhere near the most efficient way to find the best offers to promote? Hint: It isn't. Most affiliates I know NEVER even LOOK at the forum itself. They promote things by people they know, and people proven to have a record in making good offers. That has more to do with intelligent networking outside the marketplace and very little to do with slapping your affiliate banner into your sales page.

      Edit: I shouldn't say "stupidest" because people might think I am talking about the people who use it being stupid. What I should have said is "least effective" because that's what it is.
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  • Let me expand and underscore what Colin has said.

    I, too, am a copywriter -- and my domain has primarily been writing copy for WSOs.

    My clients have NEVER, to my knowledge, advertised their affiliate program within the WSO thread. EVER. And they've had some of the top selling WSOs. Recruitment of affiliates has NEVER been a problem.

    Recently, I have informally consulted in a few places with folks who have gotten their PayPal accounts shutdown or have gotten calls from PayPal Risk Management. REMOVING any and all references to the affiliate program is just about the FIRST advice I've given them.

    (TONING down income claims for buyers, if not out right eliminating them, has been the 2nd. That just makes sense in the current regulatory climate. )

    Personally, I think this should apply to just about ANY salespage -- I wouldn't even have an affiliate link at the bottom of the page (yes, as an affiliate, that does make it more of a pain finding the affiliate program. I still wouldn't do it.)

    However, there's NOTHING that says you can't promote the affiliate program on your product access page and/or email -- whether product access is a download page or a membership or whatever.

    But I would not go over the top with that, either. Provide VALUE to your buyers FIRST -- the value in the PRODUCT. MLM companies get in trouble by putting the opportunity first; the same should apply to WSOs, imnsho.

    For those of you who are familiar with Frank Kern's story about how he got ALL his money taken away from him by the FTC, it was just this way: promising people they can buy the product and turn around and re-sell it and earn money from it.

    Incidentally, my 3rd piece of advice is make sure your product/webpage/website has all the appropriate "legal" documents. (I know some folks, like Caleb Spilchen, use a set of links within their WSO. I am NOT a lawyer, I cannot give you legal advice on that -- but I can give you a couple of ways of looking at it.

    As a copywriter, I tend to dislike ANY links off a salespage that are anything other than a Payment button. OTOH -- over time, I think the additional creditibility and professionalism will make this nearly a requirement.

    Anyone who doesn't know how to recruit affiliates for a WSO ... and I hate to say this ... but they might benefit from picking up one of those products on how to create a WSO. (The first one I bought like that actually was written by Willie Crawford -- before there were affiliate programs for WSO. And the copy said nothing about WSOs

    As for blind copy -- I have truly seen this taken to amazingly extreme degrees. So extreme that the sales page has gone on talking about the benefits of the product without ever mentioning what the product was about for longer than I would have believed possible.. I mean, some of it has been pretty impressive copy.

    In GENERAL, I hate blind copy. OTOH, there are some places where it truly is appropriate.

    I am EXTREMELY pleased to see this rule go into effect, and very happy that WillR recommended it.

    There are a LOT of very legit sellers, professional sellers, within the WSO marketplace. I continue to be amazed, as many years as I've been on this forum, the number of outstanding sellers,as to the number who have very happy customers who I keep being introduced to. (And trust me, I more often have to be won over if I've never heard of them before.)

    I've been on the WF since before you to pay to list a WSO, and before there was any "payment gateway services". It's a pretty awesome and incredible marketplace and I continue to be amazed at the value available here.

    So, thanks, Mr. Says, for creating the Warrior Forum and the WSO forum. And the mods for all the thankless, volunteer work that you put in to make it the great place it is.

    And thanks again, Will!

    I have a hard time remembering life before the Warrior Forum.

    Live JoyFully!

    Judy

    P.S. Steve Wagenheim and others -- the only "open" affiliate program I know of is ClickBank -- and they have changed that so that you can have a closed affiliate program. JVZoo, W+ both require you to approve affiliates. I believe that's true for the lesser known "button providers" as well. The problem has been in the WAY that the vendors have gone about approving affiliates.
    • [ 6 ] Thanks
    • [1] reply
    • Judy,Thanks for the reminder. We're not allowing any more blind ads. If one sneaks through, please report it.

      There are instructions in the WSO rules that say you should give people enough information to make a proper decision. Blind ads don't do that, and they tend to have much higher than usual rates of problems.I don't want to get into specifics, but carelessly approving World+Dog as affiliates is rolling the dice with your account here. Some affiliates have started doing stuff that can get a person banned even if they didn't know it was happening.

      On the flip side, we've had a few morons threaten sellers for refusing to approve them as affiliates. If you're a seller and that happens to you, please report it. We won't tolerate it, and I doubt the various affiliate platforms will either.


      Paul
      • [ 2 ] Thanks
      • [4] replies
  • These notices in the saleds page always looked like they were inappropriate. Always felt like I was getting gypped as if I was signed up as a promoter, I would be getting it at a lower price. Just totally tacky.
  • Great Idea........ Woo Hoo....

    Now, if WSO Pro, and JV Zoo, and others REQUIRED all affiliates to purchase a product first BEFORE promoting it, things would get even more inline.
    • [3] replies
    • A couple people mentioned this in passing while making other points, but placing an invitation to join your affiliate program on the delivery page is a good partial solution. Satisfied customers can be turned into some of your most passionate and persuasive advocates.

      Now, if you plan ahead and make it easy for them to promote your product, you'll be that much further ahead. Give them ads to use, email swipes, free PDF reports branded with their affiliate link, etc.

      The key is to plan ahead instead of just blasting out products.

      Recruiting is also important. Need I say more about that?

      One last thing, as I was browsing the main forum before opening this thread, I couldn't help but notice how many people are burning bridges rather than building them. That's the way to NOT get ahead in this game. Networking can increase your income dramatically, so my last comment is to remind you of something you already know ... don't let your ego run your keyboard.
      • [ 4 ] Thanks
    • Requiring a purchase in order to participate in a money-making venture is illegal. Think Ponzi, lottery laws.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
    • Don't think that's going to happen, for a number of reasons.

      Even affiliates who get access to the product before promoting have been known to put out sketchy promotions.

      It wouldn't solve the problem you're trying to solve, unfortunately.

      If I thought it would, I'd be 100% behind it.

      Live JoyFully!

      Judy

      EDITED to add:
      P.S. -- I just noticed Gene's comment as well. I didn't know that it was illegal, Gene.
      Now I'm curious how that fits with MLM. (Unfortunately, some products I REALLY like are only sold via MLM. So I'm reflecting on venturing, reluctantly and VERY cautiously, into some of those waters again.)
      • [1] reply
  • I want to ask a question here regarding this rule :

    How about the "promote this WSO and get 75% commission" banner thing below the thread? It's not allowed too, again?
    • [1] reply
    • You're kidding, right?

      You really need to ask this question?

      (Judy borrows Paul's "cluemeter" to see if anything registers here.)

      If people spent as much time in honest promotions instead of trying to game the system, they would do much better over time. Their reputations would improve, people would be more eager to do business with them, etc.

      Years ago I helped out Mike Filsaime when he launched Butterfly Marketing (the first time.) He wrote me a pm that went something like "you've got my back."

      Make the people feel like you've got their back, rather than looking like you'll knife them in the back.

      For MANY affiliates, seeing recruitment for affiliates in a thread where you are trying to send sales feels a lot like being knifed in the back, not HAVING the back of people who are vital to growing your business (affiliates.)

      Hopefully this will move the cluemeter dial to the right for some folks.

      Live JoyFully!

      Judy
  • The reason I see people having problems with affiliates is that they don't treat what they are doing like a business.

    Would a business hire a sales associate without an interview?

    Would a business let sales associates work wherever they like without dictating the appropriate venues where their product can be sold and where it can't?

    Would a business "NOT" dictate the terms of how their product must be represented to potential buyers by the sales associate?

    Those of you who aren't screening your affiliates/partners are just opening yourself up to potential problems.

    The kinds of problems that some payment processors don't like.
  • [DELETED]
  • Great rule!
    If i would like to become an affiliate and promote a product .... i would just check out the affiliate or jv page anyways or request for approval @ warrior +
  • I guess whatever is being done, is for the good. It is best to deal with a HUGE problem like income stoppage by enforcing stricter rules - and I think Paul has done just that. It ultimately is going to benefit the WF community as a whole - the short term problems which do arise can be dealt with eventually. But this action or rather rule, was well called for. Thanks A Lot to Paul and Allen.
    • [1] reply
    • I think it's a good rule and I'm very glad to see changes implemented that could potentially prevent future problems.

      here's to our mutual success!
  • As a sales page designer, I've already had to lay down the law on 2 WSOs (always hated putting it down the bottom anyway, like a big bright bandaid). So glad this rule is in place for the obvious reasons and more important reasons.
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  • 124

    New rule for WSO sellers

    The following has been added to the rules for the WSO section: 12. For offers posted after May 26, 2012, you may not promote your affiliate program within a WSO thread. For a general explanation, see the discussion starting with this post. (Posted 5/26/2012) For those who wonder, that means no mention at all. Not in separate posts, not as part of the FAQs, and not in links to it from anywhere within the threads.