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14 years ago

This can be a shock, at first. We really do have one foot still in the jungle. There is a meta-game going on during every interaction with another human, both consciously and unconsciously -- what we say is often cloaked code for what we'll actually DO (whether we're lying or believe our own BS whole-heartedly). We ALL strive for respect, abundance, a clear role in the hierarchy, safety and insider knowledge. (This translates, loosely, to greed, fear and gossip.) Not to mention our inherent laziness and aversion to taking responsibility for our actions.

And we are taught to ignore, deny and pretend otherwise. Nope, no duplicity going on here. Move along, nothing to see here.

However -- and this is important -- shifting your viewpoint to one based in reality does NOT mean you need to be become cynical or a ******* in order to thrive and succeed in biz and life.

This is a quote directly from that article. The first part took me years to figure out, the last sentence I didn't figure out until it was way too late. (Well, too late for my first biz...it's helping out in my second biz though.) I was one of the biggest b@st@rds I'd ever met in my first business, got a huge ego, and it sank me.

Great article!

-- j

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Wendy Maki

14 years ago

Having "open eyes" doesn't mean having to be negative or nasty.

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romanos8 Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Wendy Maki

Having "open eyes" doesn't mean having to be negative or nasty.

yes that is so right it means looking to the good thing and looking for better things to happen that's the real meaning of having open eyes
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- Paul Myers 14 years ago
  
  Jason,
  
  Hmm...I wish "better" came with instructions, because it doesn't always feel "better."
  
  I'd settle for instructions for "sane."
  
  BTW... Data was programmed with an ethical code. He didn't actually have a choice in that regard. Not a valid comparison.
  
  Paul
  
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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Thanks. And he opened with a line from one of my favorite songs.

I like the "one foot in the jungle" line. I say it a little differently, but I think he's talking about the same thing.

Most of us are just about three steps out of the caves. (Some are stuck in the opening.) It can often take nothing more than a few well-chosen words, or a loud noise or rapid gesture, to make us jump back into the darkness and reach for the club.

On the question of the pure sociopath, here's a scary thought: Approximately 2% of humans are born as what can be functionally called sociopaths. They have no reaction to oxytocin, the hormone responsible for feelings of bonding.

So, roughly one of fifty people you know is totally lacking in empathy, and will never have it.

For a really good explanation of dealing with "azzholes," read "The No A__hole Rule," by Robert Sutton. (He spells it out.) A very nice fit with Carlton's summary.

Paul

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Thanks. And he opened with a line from one of my favorite songs.

I like the "one foot in the jungle" line. I say it a little differently, but I think he's talking about the same thing.

Most of us are just about three steps out of the caves. (Some are stuck in the opening.) It can often take nothing more than a few well-chosen words, or a loud noise or rapid gesture, to make us jump back into the darkness and reach for the club.

On the question of the pure sociopath, here's a scary thought: Approximately 2% of humans are born as what can be functionally called sociopaths. They have no reaction to oxytocin, the hormone responsible for feelings of bonding.

So, roughly one of fifty people you know is totally lacking in empathy, and will never have it.

For a really good explanation of dealing with "azzholes," read "The No A__hole Rule," by Robert Sutton. (He spells it out.) A very nice fit with Carlton's summary.

Paul

And it's something like 10% of CEOs...

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Wendy Maki

14 years ago

Interestingly, it is possible (rare, but possible) to have a sociopath who does all the right things, not for emotional and empathic reasons, but because it makes emotionless abstract logical sense to. There are times, even, that the clarity of a sociopathic view could be exactly what's needed because it's not clouded by emotional attachments, which I hate to say it, in my experience, are often the cause of terrible behaviours by people.

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Kurt,

And it's something like 10% of CEOs...

I'm surprised it's not more. Power positions are like magnets for sociopaths. They can be very effective narcissists.

Wendy,

For that kind of detached clarity, you don't have to go to sociopaths. I have a friend who is what's called a high-functioning autistic. He's plain old brilliant, and has the highly developed moral compass you describe that comes from reasoning, rather than emotion.

Because he doesn't get tangled up in other people's emotional pettiness, he has studied how emotions work. For him, it's a logical thing. And he's become very, very good at analyzing people. Not because he wants anything from them, but simply because he wants to understand how he's different.

Paul

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Kurt 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Kurt,I'm surprised it's not more. Power positions are like magnets for sociopaths. They can be very effective narcissists.

It could be more...I read the article a few months ago and my memory isn't what it used to be.

A point to make is, if your boss doesn't seem to care about you, there's a good chance you are correct. LOL
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TheArticlePros

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Wendy Maki

Interestingly, it is possible (rare, but possible) to have a sociopath who does all the right things, not for emotional and empathic reasons, but because it makes emotionless abstract logical sense to. There are times, even, that the clarity of a sociopathic view could be exactly what's needed because it's not clouded by emotional attachments, which I hate to say it, in my experience, are often the cause of terrible behaviours by people.

OK I'm dropping my sarcasm for a bit here...at least in this post anyways.

Wendy, have you ever watched "Dexter" on Showtime? This is a description of his character to a "T."

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Kurt,I'm surprised it's not more. Power positions are like magnets for sociopaths. They can be very effective narcissists.

Wendy,

For that kind of detached clarity, you don't have to go to sociopaths. I have a friend who is what's called a high-functioning autistic. He's plain old brilliant, and has the highly developed moral compass you describe that comes from reasoning, rather than emotion.

Because he doesn't get tangled up in other people's emotional pettiness, he has studied how emotions work. For him, it's a logical thing. And he's become very, very good at analyzing people. Not because he wants anything from them, but simply because he wants to understand how he's different.

Paul

I'm curious about this too, Paul. I don't have that...that..."thing" in me that makes most guys go out and find girlfriends or serial one night stands or whatever. I'm just as happy sitting here typing in the WF, writing articles, or playing WoW as I am out in the dating world.

I'm a lot like your friend. I don't get caught up in a lot of things because they just don't make sense to me. People bickering, squabbling, or even moral dilemmas. Sometimes they'll puzzle me, and I've even been caught asking the "wrong questions" at times.... I tend to people-watch like your friend does so I can figure out what makes things work that don't work for me.

-- j

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Wendy Maki

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JaRyCu

OK I'm dropping my sarcasm for a bit here...at least in this post anyways.

Wendy, have you ever watched "Dexter" on Showtime? This is a description of his character to a "T."

-- j

Truthfully, I don't see Dexter as being what I'm referring to. Clever concept for a show, but Dexter enjoys causing pain, through a warped notion that he could do that for "good," a motivation that was fostered by his adoptive father. I'm talking about doing "good" because it is the most selfish thing to do. When I think about it, I'm thinking of someone more like Data of Star Trek, I guess.

Anyways, we're getting into pretty heady territory. LOL

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TheArticlePros

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jason,Could be a lot of things, including just enjoying that stuff and not feeling the need for approval from others.

Sometimes different means "better."

Paul

Hmm...I wish "better" came with instructions, because it doesn't always feel "better."

Originally Posted by Wendy Maki

Truthfully, I don't see Dexter as being what I'm referring to. Clever concept for a show, but Dexter enjoys causing pain, through a warped notion that he could do that for "good," a motivation that was fostered by his adoptive father. I'm talking about doing "good" because it is the most selfish thing to do. When I think about it, I'm thinking of someone more like Data of Star Trek, I guess.

I don't see Data & Dexter as being all that different. They each make a choice to act in the way that they do. Both are studying humanity in order to determine what makes humans "human" and why they don't fit in. The biggest difference that I see (and I've read a few Dexter books and quite a few ST:TNG books) is that Data wants to be human while some inner impulse drives Dexter to kill humans instead.

-- j

And yes, it just got deep in here.

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olavlind 14 years ago

Hmm, I think we are twins. I feel exactly the same. I don't "fit in" anywhere that I have been up to now in my life (48 years). I need to do something different.

Guess that is why I ended up in here. There sure are a lot of "different" people in here. I agree with Paul, I can't help wonder if "different" can actually be better.

btw. I haven't found the manual yet either...

~Olav

Originally Posted by JaRyCu

Hmm...I wish "better" came with instructions, because it doesn't always feel "better."
And yes, it just got deep in here.
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Wendy Maki

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Kurt,I'm surprised it's not more. Power positions are like magnets for sociopaths. They can be very effective narcissists.

Wendy,

For that kind of detached clarity, you don't have to go to sociopaths. I have a friend who is what's called a high-functioning autistic. He's plain old brilliant, and has the highly developed moral compass you describe that comes from reasoning, rather than emotion.

Because he doesn't get tangled up in other people's emotional pettiness, he has studied how emotions work. For him, it's a logical thing. And he's become very, very good at analyzing people. Not because he wants anything from them, but simply because he wants to understand how he's different.

Paul

Although clearly we're entering the murky realms of diagnostic criteria, I don't really see a necessary correlation between a lack of empathic connection and doing/not doing good things. I think it's possible to do good things because it IS the ultimate form of self-interest

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Jason,

I'm curious about this too, Paul. I don't have that...that..."thing" in me that makes most guys go out and find girlfriends or serial one night stands or whatever. I'm just as happy sitting here typing in the WF, writing articles, or playing WoW as I am out in the dating world.

Could be a lot of things, including just enjoying that stuff and not feeling the need for approval from others.

Sometimes different means "better."

Paul

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Wendy Maki

14 years ago

Going back to the rank I started from, John Carlton's not mine

, the part that I really enjoyed the most was what he was saying about cynics, and his own attitude of 'optimistic pessimism" (aka seeing things 'realistically') as an entrepreneur (quoted from Carlton's blog post):

But the dedicated cynic brings a massive payload of bitterness, petty jealousy, and Schadenfreude ("delight in the misfortune of others") to everything they touch. They will hate you for succeeding (cuz they never can), and rejoice in your blunders.

Gary Halbert and I developed this attitude we called "being an optimistic pessimist"... which meant we braced for the worst in any given project, rooted for the best results possible, and accepted what happened... knowing the only real measure was whether we did everything we could to make it successful.

Cynics, Sociopaths & Garden-Variety Azzholes | The RANT

Aside from how fascinating sociopaths are, what really struck me in Carlton's blog post was what he was saying about the negativity of 'cynics.' It really resonated after reading one thing after another pretty much expressing those cynical negative attitudes... and it was sort of getting to me... but reading his post made me kind of step back for a minute ...

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olavlind

14 years ago

One more thing...

I am trying to find a good copywriter to learn from, write out sales letter by hand etc. and originally thought I would want to learn from John Carlton. I asked a lot of people about this and most of them say Halbert, Bencivenga, Carlton, Makepiece, Abraham etc.

I like Carlton's attitude, so I decided to find some of his sales letters. Seconds after making up my mind, an email dropped into my inbox about a new Carlton rant...and it was this one.

So I jumped on over to his blog and started reading. What I found after reading for a while though, was that having a sceptic, realistic view and attitude is not something I would want to live with.

I was a little put off by that. Then I read this thread and it dawned on me that I may have perceived the whole thing totally wrong...

Can I live a fun, fulfilling, life and still view things like John Carlton do?

btw, I have an analytic, "I know that" personality that I want to get rid of, that is why I am asking.

I wanna change and I am looking for answers on why my life is still running downhill even though I have been trying to learn for so long (over 10 years).

~Olav

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Wendy Maki

14 years ago

Originally Posted by olavlind

One more thing...

I was a little put off by that. Then I read this thread and it dawned on me that I may have perceived the whole thing totally wrong...

Can I live a fun, fulfilling, life and still view things like John Carlton do?

~Olav

I can't imagine too many people having more fun with life than John Carlton

In life, and business, people waste a lot of emotional energy NOT seeing things as they are, the good, the ordinary, the bad, warts and all. Oddly enough, that can be considered the ultimate in unconditional love. Doesn't mean that you don't protect your own optimism when you need to and that's part of what Carlton is talking about.

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koenig

14 years ago

Haha I agree...

Originally Posted by Wendy Maki

I can't imagine too many people having more fun with life than John Carlton

In life, and business, people waste a lot of emotional energy NOT seeing things as they are, the good, the ordinary, the bad, warts and all. Oddly enough, that can be considered the ultimate in unconditional love. Doesn't mean that you don't protect your own optimism when you need to and that's part of what Carlton is talking about.

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