Let's Screw Some Newbies Who Don't Know Any Better!

118 replies
This post may be controversial. Maybe I shouldn't even put this out there, but for what it's worth maybe it will help at least a few people.

Let me begin by saying I make my living online. I'm not a bitter newbie and I have no issue with smart marketers who hire help to produce their infrastructure.

But the fact is selling "expert advice" that was written by someone who knows NOTHING about the subject matter is a CRAP tactic.

Here's the deal: I know for a fact that many popular marketing products sold to home business people are fraudulent in nature.

How do I know? I know the ghostwriters who produce these items for the marketers who then sell them and here's the thing...

Many of the writers I know personally who have written some of the recent and major products in the IM field have never made a dollar with Internet marketing.

Ok it's safe to say these folks use the Web to sell their writing. And I'm not taking away from them on this but...

I know a popular PPC "guru" who hires a friend of mine to write ALL of his e-books and courses. My friend knows squat about PPC, having never used it before and he says his client provides NOTHING in the way of material or research. The result is...

Someone who knows nothing and has no experience with PPC is writing books and courses that WITHOUT BEING CHECKED FOR ACCURACY are then being sold as "expert guides" at top dollar. And again this is all being done from one of the top PPC training systems in the IM market.

In 2008 a very well-knonw IM guru sold a "complete marketing home study course" that was completely created by a writer with ZERO IM experience and the final product was rolled out the door and sold to consumers WITHOUT BEING CHANGED AT ALL!

It really pisses me off. I'm not being naive here I do understand the value of outsourcing and I don't suggest a marketer needs to produce his or her own products however when you are selling "Expert guides" that someone who doesn't know shit is writing for you I say it's fraud.

I personally know the writers who create "guru guides" for MANY big shot marketers and in many cases:

  1. The guru client doesn't provide anything beyond a description, i.e. no research material, no reference, nothing.
  2. The material is published "AS IS". It was written on total guesswork and speculation and it gets labeled as "expert" content and sold to unwitting newbies!
I know I'll get flamed for this (if the thread isn't outright deleted) but this is bullshit folks.

Would you want to buy a weight loss book from some lardo who weighs 300 pounds?

Would you buy advice on dating from someone who never goes out on dates?

Then why should it be OK to buy "marketing advice" written by people who know jack s*** about the topic they are writing about?

A recent HUGE launch was a product created by a guy I'm friends with. HE confided in me his guilt over the issue... he knows nothing about the subject matter and yet his guru client blatantly told him it wasn't an issue. The product was sold (thousands of copies!) and I compared the finished product to the draft my friend showed me - A PERFECT MATCH!!!

I
could give names but I won't. It's not my place to interfere with someone's marketing strategy but I had to at least try to say something.

Enough is friggin' enough already dammit!

I've been selling products and services online full-time since 2005 and I've watched a big fat chunk of this industry go down the toilet in the manner described above.

What Can You Do To Avoid Buying GARBAGE?

What am I suggesting? Honestly I don't know exactly what to say given the absurd nature of this problem.

But here are what I feel to be some legitimate courses of action.

  • One solution for newbies is to look for real coaching, personal consultation, etc. Rather than buying e-books with names that sound more like blockbuster movie titles invest in face time or real guidance from a business/marketing coach.
  • The workshops given here at the forum are a great example of legitimate opportunities to learn directly from expert entrepreneurs.
  • Also anything from IMC (Internet Marketing Center) is legitimate and has been tested in the field many times before ever being packaged and sold to you.
  • A few popular IM info marketers that I know personally who always strive to provide accurate information are Justin Michie, Glen Hopkins, and Robert Puddy.
  • I also know many others who may not be stamped as "gurus" but who can teach anyone to make a nice living from home.
  • Certainly I have purchased many good info products from people I do not know personally. In no way am I suggesting that all of IM is "bunk" but I AM saying without hesitation that a deeply offensive trend of using one's name to sell sub-quality info to unsuspecting newbies has developed.
Take this info for what you will. But I have to wonder of anyone who flames this post: have I hit a nerve?

My sincere hope is that at least a few dozen stuggling marketers will read this and become a bit more shrewd when it's time to buy an e-book or course.

#&gt #> #deleted #read #save #thousands #thsi
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Tim, I think I'm on your list, though I can't remember the last time I got
    anything from you. Maybe my spam filters are chucking them in the trash.

    Another big problem with this business.

    I applaud you for coming out and revealing this crap.

    That's why I don't let anybody write for me...not even an article.

    I get flamed for not outsourcing my writing but this is the main reason why
    I don't.

    What comes out of my mouth is mine and mine alone...for good, bad or
    indifferent.

    As for a solution, I don't see one. Because how can you tell what books
    are ghost written? I sure can't.

    And to say go get coaching...some people just can't afford a reputable
    coach. And even there, how do you know who's reputable and who's just
    full of crap?

    I agree this is a huge problem, but I for one don't have a real solution
    that everybody can afford.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581180].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author KenJ
      Simply Brilliant Tim.

      I have just recovered from being completely taken in by a bunch of NON gurus.

      I work almost entirely in non IM niches because I cannot stand the false promises that these "Experts" offer

      Ken
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581198].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alexissalaam
      great advice Tim I know first hand i'm into fitness and a couple years back I went to a fitness seminar and at least a quarter of the speakers were out of shape and I mean by a lot LBS. So be careful who you buy from.

      Good going Tim
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585822].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Derek Pankaew
    Hey Tim,

    I completely agree with everything you said.

    Steven: There's really enough free information on the Warrior Forum alone for anyone to start making money online. Once you're profitable, then it's reasonable to start investing in coaching from others.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581193].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MikeWords
      This is rampant. Shouldn't be shocking to anyone.

      If there's a market, people will flood it with crap. My advice to newbs is don't buy anything. You can find all the info you need for free. You just need to dig for it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581209].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author anton343
    For someone who is a newbie to IM thanks for the post it's opened my eyes.

    I sometimes use scriptlance for projects (not writing) but graphic or web design etc. And I always wondered what happened to the numerous posts on there for article writers.

    They getting them done on the cheap and now selling them to people like myself for top dollars


    Great Post
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581202].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    If one applies the basics from books you can buy at Amazon and Barnes & Noble on seo and internet marketing you will beat 95% of all of your competition in my opinion.

    The data is a lot cheaper too.

    I will always continue to buy books like this which cost $20 dollars here, $20 dollars there etc.

    But I won't buy any more major "releases" until I have better utilised what I have already bought over the years.

    We are doing great now and will do better by utilising more stuff we are learning, but that doesn't mean we will go and spend $1,997 on the "latest" launch.

    If we utilised half of the materials that are already in our office library then we will grow 10x in the next year or two.

    So pay a visit to your local (but big) bookshop and unearth some information treasure.

    Good luck.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581212].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
    Hi Tim --

    Thanks for pointing that out. While I do agree that some genuine 'crap' might be churned out... Someone with 0% experience in these areas could quite possibly write a very good report/e-book/course, etc -- if they had the resources -- and are basing their research/content off of people who are successful in the field.

    For example, if a journalist wrote about how to make 1 million dollars in 1 year, after interviewing 100 millionaires, although they may not have personally made even a million in their lifetime, I would still be interested in seeing what they wrote.

    If they are a quality writer, and understand the material they are reading, and obtain that material from other successful (proven) peopl e-- then I would say that most likely that the end-product would be just as good as if they were an expert in the field themselves.

    Of course, I agree that there is a lot of crap being churned out -- but just note that some people can still put together good quality stuff with the right resources.
    Signature
    Make money from writing, find out how now.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581213].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dwshoup
      Tim stated that they were not given ANY resources to write from which makes the product crap. I myself have purchased crap and now I know why.

      Outsourcing some aspects of your business is one thing but hiring someone to write an "expert guide" that has no experience or research in the field is bullshit and a scam.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584585].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jlandells
    A few years ago, I paid $5995 for personal, one-on-one coaching and was promised the earth. The coach that ended up working with me was working with public domain material and wasn't even aware of what I'd been sold. I ended up trying to get a refund and getting nowhere with that either!

    It seems like the only way to learn is to either find somebody reputable (which I've since done) or learn the hard way by trial and error (which I've also done...!)

    -John.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581223].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joel Gray
    Tim,

    Great insight into a growing problem within our IM community, I agree with your views 100 percent.

    Joel
    Signature

    "Punish The Deed, Not The Breed"

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581251].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
    Thanks for all the responses.

    Steve W. I thought I was on your list as well but ditto with not seeing anything in a while. Perhaps I have since moved emails or something - will check you out anew shortly.

    Just to clarify:

    As a writer I agree that sure good research can allow me to write quality on a variety of topics. But I think selling an expert course or series of expert e-books that was researched by a writer and not created by the authority in the field is at best shady... I just can't feel right about it.

    And I agree also that my suggested solutions are far from bullet proof. Sadly this is a problem that doesn't have a clear-cut answer and it's one of the big reasons the IM industry is called a scam by many in the more traditional business/marketing field.

    Bottom line is newbies (though many have no real intention of even trying to succeed) deserve to get worthwhile material when they buy expecting to learn real methods. Of course there will always be newbies (loads of them) who won't take responsibility for their own success and wouldn't get off their butts to work if you spent 8 hours a day working with them in-person, but they still should not be sold a load of theory and fiction for their B2B investments.

    Anyway onward and upward and thanks again to all who posted.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581297].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Christophe Young
      Tim,

      Thanks for bringing this up. I have to agree and I'm VERY picky about who I learn from because anyone can claim to be an "expert." I don't believe testimonials at all and I don't even read them on anyone's website.

      I found the best way to judge someone's credibility is by following them for a while and really listening to what they have to say. I'm at a point now where I can get a "feel" for the TRUE mentors. It's unfortunate that so many are just about screwing people. It's just the way it is.

      I, for one, want to do it the right way. I write all my articles, newsletters and always treat my customers with respect. I know what it's like to be a newbie looking for information. Sure, a lot of us could screw people but do you really want to be THAT kind of guy? I don't.

      I can also vouch for IMC. I learned almost everything about IM from Derek Gehl and his products. A truly professional company and I'm glad they are out there.
      Signature
      Under Construction
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581376].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sevenish
    I'm shocked ... SHOCKED, I tell you.

    Seriously though, I appreciate your post Tim. I don't buy IM stuff or WSOs much. I used to call people out selling WSOs that were out-and-out copy/pastes from other forums but there are just too many to keep up with and I don't have the time. One guy even downloaded the free scripts for one free method that was posted on BHW and sold both the method and the scripts here without even changing the file names.
    Signature

    100% atrocity-free! No annihilations, assasinations, explosions, killers, crushers, massacres, bombs, skyrockets or nukes.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581429].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by sevenish View Post

      I'm shocked ... SHOCKED, I tell you.
      LOL.

      Yeah I got a little worked up but it's just where I was in the moment. I know there's nothing I can do to change the issue but hoping to impact at least a few people who read this.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581458].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by sevenish View Post

      I'm shocked ... SHOCKED, I tell you.

      Seriously though, I appreciate your post Tim. I don't buy IM stuff or WSOs much. I used to call people out selling WSOs that were out-and-out copy/pastes from other forums but there are just too many to keep up with and I don't have the time. One guy even downloaded the free scripts for one free method that was posted on BHW and sold both the method and the scripts here without even changing the file names.
      You know what really pisses me off? I bust my butt trying to come up with
      original material and then I hear stuff like this.

      Just goes to show you that there are some people who will do anything for
      a buck.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581461].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sevenish
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        You know what really pisses me off? I bust my butt trying to come up with
        original material and then I hear stuff like this.

        Just goes to show you that there are some people who will do anything for
        a buck.
        Well, don't get too pissed off. YOU, after all, have a more sustainable business than someone who is always on the lookout for something to swipe and slap into a WSO without being caught. That should count for something.
        Signature

        100% atrocity-free! No annihilations, assasinations, explosions, killers, crushers, massacres, bombs, skyrockets or nukes.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581502].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
    Okay, a couple of things I want to mention here...

    1. I know what you are saying BUT, when I buy a product, I'm not concerned if it was outsourced or written by the person I bought it from. What I care about is if it works. I don't look at anyone on here as a guru so I am not shocked by the fact that someone outsources their product; in fact, it is quite a common thing.

    2. I don't believe in newbies. There is no such thing! The members of the WF are PEOPLE and should be treated as such. There are some who are more experienced and there are some who are less experienced but they all have feelings.

    3. The WF is a FORUM... it isn't paradise or Shangri la. The number of posts a person has is totally irrelevant and you should never put anyone on a pedestal because they are well-known! I have read threads where someone will say, " So and So is a Warrior and I can't believe he/she would do such a thing!" Do what?

    4. People are NOT always who or what they seem to be. ANYBODY can come in here and pretend to be ANYTHING. Do the words "due diligence" mean anything to you? You can dress a skunk up in a tuxedo and send him to town but he will STILL be a skunk!

    5. Get to know people. I have made a lot of friends on this forum and I can ask a question about somebody and it is rare that no one will have an opinion about them. This has saved me a lot of grief over time. "Yeah, Chris, but I don't have a lot of friends here!" So what is stopping you? MAKE friends and don't wait for them to come to you. Do you think I was BORN with lots of friends in the WF? Of course not! I approached people and I got to know them. You can do the same thing.

    Take care!
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581464].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Baystreet
      Originally Posted by Chris W. Sutton View Post

      1. I know what you are saying BUT, when I buy a product, I'm not concerned if it was outsourced or written by the person I bought it from. What I care about is if it works.
      I don't think Tim has any problem with outsourcing as long as the writer is provided with material to base the writing on and then is edited by the "expert" selling the material.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581552].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author pinks
    This post is definately helpful to the newbies(like me).I almost bought a 2000$ product from a so called guru...but finally decided not to give it a try...I dont regret my decision.The truth is the different products and the sales pages really brainwashes a newbie.Most of the time(or maybe all the times)I am disappointed with what I bought...maybe I just dont know where to find the right stuff.
    I just enrolled for a course in the warrior forum(wso) from Justin Michie,I am hoping it would be diffrent from whatever I have bought till now.
    Pinks
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581520].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sevenish
    Chris,

    One of your last WSOs was one of the last I've purchased, and I'm still using that material and the output from the coaching. I also purchased one of Kevin's Recipes that was delicious. Angela Edwards' latest monthly offering is fantastic.

    And ya know? if it were all totally outsourced it really wouldn't matter to me. The products were valuable and have really helped me in my business.

    While Tim did describe outsourcing, I read it more as a "fake it 'til you make it" type rant, and responded accordingly.

    Best wishes.
    Signature

    100% atrocity-free! No annihilations, assasinations, explosions, killers, crushers, massacres, bombs, skyrockets or nukes.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581540].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CmdrStidd
      Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

      LOL.

      Yeah I got a little worked up but it's just where I was in the moment. I know there's nothing I can do to change the issue but hoping to impact at least a few people who read this.
      I will tell you what, you and several others around here need to get a little worked up more often around here. I for one am glad to see this up here. This needs to become a sticky in my opinion.

      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      You know what really pisses me off? I bust my butt trying to come up with
      original material and then I hear stuff like this.

      Just goes to show you that there are some people who will do anything for
      a buck.
      This is what happens when beginners are promised an easy ride and then they run headstrong into reality. For example, I just saw an article marketing advertisement online here that literally read "Make tons of money without doing any work!" Now you and I both know that a statement like that is total bullsh*t and yet marketers continue to advertise this way.

      This kind of marketing is fraudulent and the people that market their products this way need to be charged with international fraud charges. I am sorry but that is the way I feel. If they are going to blatantly lie in their ads then they can blatantly serve time in prison for it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581581].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jay Moreno
    @tim

    i just tried PM'ing you too...
    Signature
    Sorry, I am too busy helping people to think of a cool signature!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581554].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
    Sevenish,

    The "fake it till you make it" people are out there and there are quite a few of them. Again, the world if full of swindlers and that is what they do... swindle! People need to use due diligence before they purchase anything from anybody.

    I like to write my own stuff but that doesn't mean I WOULDN'T oursource something if it was a valuable product that would help people. Right now there are a lot of people with debt problems but debt relief is not my area of expertise; therefore, I would have to outsource any report or ebook on the subject. I wouldn't mind doing that IF it was a product that was accurate and would help people.

    Quite honestly, I would probably mention in the sales letter that I had outsourced it because I don't have anything to hide. I don't care if I get credit for writing the report and I don't think people would care either. It's original and it works so what do they care. I think people are more concerned about getting their money's worth than whether a person wrote the material or not.

    Let me also say that I AM NOT disagreeing with Tim. As I said, there are a lot of people just waiting to take advantage of the uninitiated. Some people are often hypnotized by a shiny, well-known name and they think that person can do no wrong. Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY is capable of abusing a trust. Some people make every effort not to do that and some people make a living from it. Don't make business decisions based on a name. It's called branding.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581579].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
    I don't think Tim has any problem with outsourcing as long as the writer is provided with material to base the writing on and then is edited by the "expert" selling the material.
    Hi Baystreet, I, myself, don't even have a problem with that as long as the product has value and it works.

    What I DO have a problem with is this...
    I know a popular PPC "guru" who hires a friend of mine to write ALL of his e-books and courses. My friend knows squat about PPC, having never used it before and he says his client provides NOTHING in the way of material or research. The result is...

    Someone who knows nothing and has no experience with PPC is writing books and courses that WITHOUT BEING CHECKED FOR ACCURACY are then being sold as "expert guides" at top dollar. And again this is all being done from one of the top PPC training systems in the IM market.

    In 2008 a very well-knonw IM guru sold a "complete marketing home study course" that was completely created by a writer with ZERO IM experience and the final product was rolled out the door and sold to consumers WITHOUT BEING CHANGED AT ALL!
    Now, THOSE are people who don't care about their customers. They are interested only in making money and they don't care about the product they put out.

    Your reputation is what is really important in the world of IM. If a person doesn't care about his/her customers, they will eventually be found out. A ruined reputation is very hard to earn back so it doesn't make any sense to take chances.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581595].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
    Hi Tim,

    I would like to share a little story I came up with while reading this thread...

    This has been going on ever since cavemen started communicating and writing on their cave walls.

    It's been the blind leading the blind for ages now, as well as the stronger preying on the weaker.

    Here's a little story about Gorak and Horak back in caveman times:

    There was a tribe of cavemen who had not eaten in a while, and they were waiting for a few of their best hunters to come back from a long hunting trip.

    After waiting for several days and nights, they woke one morning and saw a glimmer of hope in the sunrise, and out from the shadows came Gorak carying a huge kill... enough to feed the tribe for weeks... The tribe rejoiced, and the next hunter to go out for the next kill was Horak.

    Gorak gave Horak some advice:

    Gorak : "Hey Horak, there is some great hunting over those hills and past the lake."

    Horak : "Really? I've heard that there are tigers over there...?"

    Gorak : "No, trust me, I just came from there and the tigers are gone, but there is some huge game that you can hunt easily over there... they practically come to you! It's the easiest hunt I have ever been on."

    Horak : "Well, I guess that does sound tempting... I'm going to go check that out, sounds like bountiful hunting over there."

    Little did Horak know that the tigers were still there and Gorak was actually leading him into a saber-tooth tiger's territory/hunting ground and Gorak just wanted Horak's cave and his wife.

    Poor Horak... he did not return from his hunting trip.

    Don't be a Horak... learn how to determine for yourself when you are being led down the wrong path.

    Jared
    Signature

    P.S.

    Join The Future: Telekinetic Marketing

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581618].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ThomasW
    Thanks for the great post Tim. I have watched this IM field become the internet version of the late night infomercial hucksters. My advice has always been that if the product you purchased turns out to be crap then the best stopper is Massive returns. Don't be shy - shove their garbage down their throats - these charlatans exist because people are too shy to stuff it back to them. If they don't return your money contact your state's attorney general.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581634].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author A8ch
    Hi Tim,

    Not only did you highlight an unfortunate practice, but the way you presented the post was a testament to your own copywriting skills. Well done!

    Hermas
    Signature
    http://HermasHaynes.com - Web Marketing - Simple & Direct
    http://www.OnlineListBuildingFormula.com - How to Build a Super Responsive List Fast!
    http://www.eBizInfoProducts.com - Prosper with Info Products
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581670].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Trieu
    I do agree with you on that. Although, the thruth is there i nothing anyone can do about it. THere is so much PLR material out there, anyone can just claim it as their own work without breaking the law
    Signature

    ======================================
    "$100 On eBay with just 10 Minutes Work! {120+ copies SOLD}"

    ======================================
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581770].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author g00db0y
    Thanks for the wake up call Tim.

    Hopefully you want to share with us other issues regarding about un-ethical approaches used by so called internet marketing gurus. It's gonna be very helpful especially for newbies in the world of IM.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581838].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Tim - Good rant!

      Somewhere out there are a few guru-types madly sending non-disclosure agreements to their ghostwriters...just in case the writers are friends with you.

      kay
      Signature
      Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581854].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author GreatBiz
    Excellent! It's time someone come out to put things in perspective. I have read a few books from the gurus. I sometimes wonder if they really know what they are saying. Talking about theories and "supposedly" working strategies when they don't work at all.

    Actually, it's everyone's guess that many of these guys don't know much about what they write. They are only good at "marketing". Funny thing that someone who doesn't really know marketing knows how to market their products for top bucks!

    I read somewhere that some of their so-called earnings and statements are fabricated. I believe that is true.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581867].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author cow194234
    I compleely agree with this. I really feel having been a newbie about a year ago that a lot of IM people know NOTHING. Yet preach it and make tons. It is gross to think this is the new way to "be the top IM marketer" to lie through your teeth and sell a crap product. I really wish I had been here in the beginning.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581868].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I'm actually shocked. I know it's naive of me but I always
    assumed this kind of outsourced junk info-product was
    strictly the obvious made-in-Asia PLR-type stuff. It never
    occurred to me that bigger-ticket things would be outsourced
    to unqualified writers on a routine basis.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581878].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author arclight
    There is a lot of good sense written here and the responses go to show that it is a very real issue. However, there has to be some sense of "let the buyer beware". In the end I don't care if my insane uncle wrote the stuff.....so long as it works. If it doesn't work then that is a different matter.

    Geoff
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[581894].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by arclight View Post

      In the end I don't care if my insane uncle wrote the stuff.....so long as it works. If it doesn't work then that is a different matter.

      Geoff
      Well sure. I can agree with that but in many of the cases I've seen the finished product is a bunch of guesswork and nonsense that simply will not provide a useable blueprint to the consumer.

      And that's the point of my post.

      Also while I'm posting I want to point out that I'm definitely not bashing these writers who are doing the best they can with the assignments given them. They're taking high paying gigs to put money in the bank and I understand.

      My distaste is for the "expert marketers" who obviously view their customers with little regard. If I bought a guide on beating my favorite video game I would expect to be able to use the info provided to beat the AI and overcome many of the virtual challenges; I think it reasonable to demand a marketing guide contain legitimately useful content as well.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582021].message }}
      • Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

        Well sure. I can agree with that but in many of the cases I've seen the finished product is a bunch of guesswork and nonsense that simply will not provide a useable blueprint to the consumer.

        And that's the point of my post.

        Also while I'm posting I want to point out that I'm definitely not bashing these writers who are doing the best they can with the assignments given them. They're taking high paying gigs to put money in the bank and I understand.

        My distaste is for the "expert marketers" who obviously view their customers with little regard. If I bought a guide on beating my favorite video game I would expect to be able to use the info provided to beat the AI and overcome many of the virtual challenges; I think it reasonable to demand a marketing guide contain legitimately useful content as well.
        I am one of the people who bought a lot of info products while trying to learn how to start a business on the internet. Maybe it's a female trait, maybe I'm just that naive, but I spent a lot of time (A LONG TIME) thinking that the reason I wasn't getting the results promised by the 'author' was because I wasn't understanding the material. I accepted fault rather than questioning the material, or the author's knowledge or integrity.

        I didn't know how to vet the products or analyze the producers. I didn't know any of them. I thought that people who were considered to be authorities and were giving testimonials about the latest and greatest products wouldn't do so at the risk of endangering their reputation.

        I spent an embarrassing amount of money and wasted more time than I want to admit trying to start a business. I wasn't looking for an easy or lazy way to make a living. Having some health issues that made working from home very attractive, building a business on the internet seemed to be a perfect solution. I didn't want to get rich quick. I simply wanted to continue paying the mortgage.

        There are a couple hundred thousand more people in the same situation now as I was three years ago. We as a community can mitigate, or perhaps even prevent, others who are so vulnerable right now from losing even more than they have already.

        Tim, thanks for bringing this problem to light. So-called newbies aren't ignorant, just naive. The majority aren't trying to make a quick killing, but are probably trying to figure out a way to keep a roof over their family's heads and food on the table in a time when 'real jobs' are scarce.

        Georgann
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582105].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          That's part of their MO. If a customer complains they put the blame back on you. You're not following the plan. You're not putting the time, etc. When in reality as Tim explained in the OP they don't even know if it works because they have never used that "system" themselves. It's based on research and theory written by a ghostwriter.

          The sad part is that there are lot of good guys & girls in the IM niche who provide excellent info products that can actually help you but most people go for the shiny, loud new thing out there.

          Originally Posted by Georgann McCrosson View Post

          I am one of the people who bought a lot of info products while trying to learn how to start a business on the internet. Maybe it's a female trait, maybe I'm just that naive, but I spent a lot of time (A LONG TIME) thinking that the reason I wasn't getting the results promised by the 'author' was because I wasn't understanding the material. I accepted fault rather than questioning the material, or the author's knowledge or integrity.

          I didn't know how to vet the products or analyze the producers. I didn't know any of them. I thought that people who were considered to be authorities and were giving testimonials about the latest and greatest products wouldn't do so at the risk of endangering their reputation.

          I spent an embarrassing amount of money and wasted more time than I want to admit trying to start a business. I wasn't looking for an easy or lazy way to make a living. Having some health issues that made working from home very attractive, building a business on the internet seemed to be a perfect solution. I didn't want to get rich quick. I simply wanted to continue paying the mortgage.

          There are a couple hundred thousand more people in the same situation now as I was three years ago. We as a community can mitigate, or perhaps even prevent, others who are so vulnerable right now from losing even more than they have already.

          Tim, thanks for bringing this problem to light. So-called newbies aren't ignorant, just naive. The majority aren't trying to make a quick killing, but are probably trying to figure out a way to keep a roof over their family's heads and food on the table in a time when 'real jobs' are scarce.

          Georgann
          Signature
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582784].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Noel2010
    I've been saying this all along...that the system that thay are selling doesn't make money. The money they make is only from selling the ebooks and courses.

    I mean, if these gurus were making $1000s per day using their system, what would they be doing here? And then next month, they are promoting their friend's new money making system as the best ever and giving away their system free as a bonus!

    You can't name names here but I think I know some of those guys. But the good thing is they offer a money-back guarantee (except those co-reg guys)

    Noel.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582069].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jmn187
    Interesting point made here. Its should just be known. To all you newbies out there. Don't buy anything.

    Just read Warrior Forum!

    and I'm done
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582127].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      In retrospect maybe I should reconsider the term "newbie". It does sort of dehumanize that target group of people.

      Food for future thought on my end I guess.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582157].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author James12C
        Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

        In retrospect maybe I should reconsider the term "newbie". It does sort of dehumanize that target group of people.

        Food for future thought on my end I guess.
        Fair point, Tim, and a great thread. Thanks.
        Signature

        Frustrated beginner? Check out my FREE 4-part, 6 bonus LIST BUILDING COURSE

        Follow me on Twitter AND my Blog

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[588109].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I wonder if there's anything anyone can do about it.
          You can take charge of your own buying decisions. You can stop believing every dream of easy or fast money "if you just use my system" that you read. How many newbies reading this thread quickly went to the one source Tim recommended to check it out?

          You can't protect people from their own dreams of easy money, fast money, or quickly attaining "guru status" themselves. We all make some poor decisions but those who succeed take credit for their own mistakes and do better going forward.

          There is no market online or offline with popular products where there are no knock offs or shabby products offered. Part of getting over "newbieness" is learning to recognize hype when you see it. A good percentage of those new to working online make the same mistakes - joining mlm's, signing up for freebies everywhere they find them, buying useless lists of email addresses, thinking moya and jerk are something new.

          Some make those mistakes and then get on track and build for themselves - others never get it. That won't change.

          kay
          Signature
          Every child needs a pet because every family needs an optimist

          Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[588311].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author g00db0y
      Originally Posted by Jmn187 View Post

      Interesting point made here. Its should just be known. To all you newbies out there. Don't buy anything.

      Just read Warrior Forum!

      and I'm done

      1000% AGREE.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584051].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
        Not buying anything is one way to go about it I guess LOL.

        Honestly though I spend money every month on my growth and education and my aim was not to scare people out of buying altogether. Just apply more due diligence, look for more feedback, etc.

        Above and beyond just the main WF I urge marketers of any experience level to get plugged into the private War Room. And again the work shops run through this forum are great investments.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584421].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author oneempowered
    The sad thing is that a newbie has no way of knowing that the info is bogus until someone tells them or they figure things out for themselves.

    I wish you could actually OUT these gurus, but I realize that isn't very practical and would become counterproductive in a hurry.

    I wholeheartedly recommend that every newbie joins the WarRoom because it's quite possibly the best source of information on the internet. When you do, read everything from Allen Says (admin) and everything from Jack Duncan. There are several others, but starting with those two will provide quite an education.
    Signature

    "We can't let fear hold us back. Everything we really want is just on the other side of fear."
    ~Farrah Gray (self-made millionaire at 14)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582206].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    A nice choice of subject line.

    Maybe your next could be - "Let's go screw some offline businesses!"

    It seems to me that the whole ethos of internet marketing has been reduced to who can make the biggest (as in number of nausiatingly repetitious pages) product and sell it to the biggest number of gullible idiots.

    I learned a long time ago that there are very few people in internet marketing whom I can trust. Most of my trust was destroyed when asking for clarification of points they had made in marketing materials or in forums and getting no credible response.

    I have watched the trends in marketing flow in and out like the tide. Someone will make a sale of a 'new' idea and, before you can turn and spit, everybody is promoting it. Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.
    Signature

    You might not like what I say - but I believe it.
    Build it, make money, then build some more
    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582265].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      A nice choice of subject line.

      Maybe your next could be - "Let's go screw some offline businesses!"

      It seems to me that the whole ethos of internet marketing has been reduced to who can make the biggest (as in number of nausiatingly repetitious pages) product and sell it to the biggest number of gullible idiots.

      I learned a long time ago that there are very few people in internet marketing whom I can trust. Most of my trust was destroyed when asking for clarification of points they had made in marketing materials or in forums and getting no credible response.

      I have watched the trends in marketing flow in and out like the tide. Someone will make a sale of a 'new' idea and, before you can turn and spit, everybody is promoting it. Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.
      LOL!

      Just forgot to add "Cash Cow" to the title...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585173].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author yzal
    Thanks for this post Tim, I will definitely think twice before I buy another info product.

    I'm going to make sure I run everything past you guys on this forum before I make any further snap decisions.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582301].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author yzal
    BTW Jared, I liked your story.....poor, poor Horak
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582308].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Easy Cash
    This is like any business.

    It comes down to reputation and ethics.

    Ever heard of 'Caveat emptor'?

    This applies to any industry. What about dodgy builders? What about dodgy property developers?

    Using dodgy tactics to make money applies in every niche, nook and cranny you can find and has been around since money was invented.

    IM is no different. Whether someone employs cheap labour to create a product is no different from an offline business employing a student to do a 'professionals' task.

    Look at a lot of the major corporations around and you will discover similar principles.

    Look at any scam artist offline - and you will find similar tactics.

    It is all about the money.

    'Caveat Emptor'
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582319].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by Easy Cash View Post

      IM is no different. Whether someone employs cheap labour to create a product is no different from an offline business employing a student to do a 'professionals' task.

      Look at a lot of the major corporations around and you will discover similar principles.
      you are SO right!

      As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

      The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

      There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

      No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

      SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.
      Signature

      -Jason

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583340].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author oneempowered
        Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

        you are SO right!

        As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

        The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

        There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

        No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

        SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.
        LOL, I had similar experiences with the same bank. Migrating completely away from FDR caused nightmares.
        Signature

        "We can't let fear hold us back. Everything we really want is just on the other side of fear."
        ~Farrah Gray (self-made millionaire at 14)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584943].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbecom
        Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

        you are SO right!

        As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

        The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

        There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

        No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

        SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.
        Happened to me too when I was working on a great Oil company's project. The same consultancy's gurus/lords were doing a project that began almost 5 years before. I was the only outsider. They gave me their toughest module and asked me to complete it within a week. They never bothered to tell me what that module was suppose to do, how it was supposed to act, what were the inputs and outputs... These guys were always in the meeting room... eating and drinking, or were roaming outside. They had their own groups, stayed in the best hotels, were paid the best consulting charges. The project rolled on and on... None watched them, none cared!

        No serious work seemed to take place, nothing was completed. I got myself out of that project within 2 weeks. I got better work satisfaction in the next project which was small but had the best project leaders and managers.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585298].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alexissalaam
        Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

        you are SO right!

        As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

        The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

        There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

        No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

        SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.
        Well Jason is'nt that the American. Some of the biggest companies in the world have been doing this since the dawn of time so why would it suprise anybody now in most cases it's buyer beware.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585876].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ngjkro
      the best 'guru' is your own experiences
      just grab some free information available in warrior forum, start action and gain experiences. :p
      Signature

      Frustrated because of keep failing in IM? Feel like want to give up? This might help you abit
      >>Free Report - The Magic of Smile<<
      no email required

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584613].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author LegitBlogger
      I wonder if there's anything anyone can do about it. There are now so many "gurus" coming out with information products that we know they don't do what they claim they do, but hey - almost everyone's doing it these days, gurus and nongurus. Thanks for the rant, nonetheless; at least you got it off your chest,
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587161].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author joe.marsh
      Tim... Your so correct

      What your saying is so correct... I know of a warrior here on the forum that ghostwrites for a famous warrior even if they know nothing about the topic. This is a scary thought.

      The writer asked if they had information concerning the subject or an outline and the client said no just write about it. It all comes down to the writer doing great research and hopefully from the right locations.

      It is a scary thing and does happen.

      It is something that we would all be better off if it did not happen.

      Joe
      Signature
      * Facebook Fanpages Domination Package - Special limited release price. Save over 80%. Price is goingup soon.
      * Getting traffic from high volume sites just got easier. Traffic Sponge - At a special launch price.
      * Just relaunched - WSO - Google First Page Formula - I did it and here is how
      * Join me on Twitter - joemarsh
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[589398].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    Not that I advocate it at all, far from it, but even poor information if APPLIED and ACTED ON can be more profitable than super information that just gathers dust.

    Far too many people think money still grows on trees as far as the internet is concerned and even though they say they spend long hours doing this or that, they aren't actually doing anything EFFECTIVE and so don't make any money.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[582491].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Anomaly1974
    I wrote a number of products, articles, e-books and the like with very basic information in them but I never marketed them as advice for professionals or experts and certainly never promised to make people rich. However, my latest product is about how I did lose (and kept off) 65 pounds or about 37 kilos so I do know a bit about that. Being an ex "tough guy" (Before it was sanctioned by the UFC) and having been in a few wrestling matches "back in the day" I also felt justified adding some information about weight gain, toning and trimming and doing it in a healthy manner.

    The materials I have written for other people and "experts" ... well off the record, I have two "best sellers" in India and in all honesty, I am glad that they do not have my name on them.

    Kudos for pointing this out as many people do use these types of products do so just to make a buck with absolutely no concern for the end user.
    Signature

    Yes I really am giving away homes and vacation packages in the Philippines. Ask me if you want to know more.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583078].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Why does the opening rant sound to me more like an infomercial for Derrick Gehl?

      Anyone else noticing what I saw?
      Floyd I wanted to mention a few quality vendors in my post so it wasn't just a bunch of negativity. Not an infomercial or I would have placed a link in my sig to promote their course.

      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      Maybe your next could be - "Let's go screw some offline businesses!"

      Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.
      Yeah I've seen a lot of people carrying on about the "offline goldmine" or whatever it is. I used to work closely with brick and mortars to develop a Web presence, build email lists, drive traffic etc. - we increased profits for many clients and the whole premise was built on results that could be measured and reproduced.

      I have my doubts about the current rage re: "make a killing from offline businesses". I've seen very little suggested about how to actually improve profits for these offline "targets", as the focus is always about how the IMer can make "easy money" again off or from - never with the offline business as any real consultation program should be.

      Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

      Not that I advocate it at all, far from it, but even poor information if APPLIED and ACTED ON can be more profitable than super information that just gathers dust.

      Far too many people think money still grows on trees as far as the internet is concerned and even though they say they spend long hours doing this or that, they aren't actually doing anything EFFECTIVE and so don't make any money.
      I agree that 90% of the people claiming they want to succeed online appear to have no real intentions of doing so. And this whole issue does get muddled a bit with the debate of customer not really applying method or "method" being ghost written fantasy in the first place.

      Definitely potential for a tangled Web here, no pun intended.

      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      The sad part is that there are lot of good guys & girls in the IM niche who provide excellent info products that can actually help you but most people go for the shiny, loud new thing out there.
      It's sad but true man. So often I've seen great products with real methodology turn out "OK" numbers and then watched some silly ass "system" - again with the blockbuster movie title - sell a 7 figure launch.

      How many people are really making money with these bogus product launches? Few to none I would imagine and I'd love to find some reliable poll stats on this.
      Originally Posted by Anomaly1974 View Post

      However, my latest product is about how I did lose (and kept off) 65 pounds or about 37 kilos so I do know a bit about that. Being an ex "tough guy" (Before it was sanctioned by the UFC) and having been in a few wrestling matches "back in the day" I also felt justified adding some information about weight gain, toning and trimming and doing it in a healthy manner.
      That's great! I hope you do very well with this.

      RE: the other projects you mentioned I again want to clarify that I'm not attacking the ghost writers here.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583702].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author oneempowered
        Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

        Yeah I've seen a lot of people carrying on about the "offline goldmine" or whatever it is. I used to work closely with brick and mortars to develop a Web presence, build email lists, drive traffic etc. - we increased profits for many clients and the whole premise was built on results that could be measured and reproduced.

        I have my doubts about the current rage re: "make a killing from offline businesses". I've seen very little suggested about how to actually improve profits for these offline "targets", as the focus is always about how the IMer can make "easy money" again off or from - never with the offline business as any real consultation program should be.
        I have to disagree with you there!

        Many of the contributers in the Offline Biz threads are increasing profits for small businesses using measurable marketing strategies. If you've "never" seen the emphasis in producing results for the businesses, you haven't researched it much at all.

        I make a lot of money for businesses and I've been doing it for years before I found this great forum. The internet is just a new tool (or set of tools) for me to help them market their businesses. If I don't deliver results, they get their money back. Making them money is what it's all about.

        As with everything, there are a few who are just out to make themselves a quick buck. They won't last.

        I agree with pretty much everything else that you said.

        Originally Posted by artwebster

        Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.
        Again, the Offline Biz threads are about making the businesses money.

        The people who are ripping off small businesses are the web designers who charge thousands of dollars for sites that don't make the business any money.
        Signature

        "We can't let fear hold us back. Everything we really want is just on the other side of fear."
        ~Farrah Gray (self-made millionaire at 14)

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584536].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
          Originally Posted by oneempowered View Post

          Many of the contributers in the Offline Biz threads are increasing profits for small businesses using measurable marketing strategies. If you've "never" seen the emphasis in producing results for the businesses, you haven't researched it much at all.
          Fair enough. I should have tempered my statements somewhat.

          I believe there are many professionals who assist small businesses in an effective and ethical manner. Certainly I don't want to lash out at reputable and honorable providers.

          I was referring to a few conversations and threads I've seen that were much hyped and clearly lacked the win-win angle. As with any "movement" there are parties who are looking at the easy money/exploitation angle rather than at how they can move the targeted small businesses forward.

          But as you indicated I shouldn't make "blanket statements" on this or any other issue.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585273].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Why does the opening rant sound to me more like an infomercial for Derrick Gehl?

    Anyone else noticing what I saw?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583102].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Why does the opening rant sound to me more like an infomercial for Derrick Gehl?

      Anyone else noticing what I saw?
      I didn't see it that way. Although I can't speak for his intentions it appears to me he was trying to add some positive info as to not paint all info product creators with the same brush so he mentioned IMC and a few warriors he believes do a good job. It's more of a rant than an infomercial to me.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583243].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jsbrooks
    Good post Tim. I do agree that marketers should personally create their own material or closely supervise a team to do it. I do outsource article writing to sources that are very knowledgeable in my niche.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583799].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author gb4biz
    Dear Tim, I thought your post showed you have some ka-chingas ( more people need these ) and a good bit of Passion on the subject. I agree with EasyCash, "The Almighty Buck" makes too many people do too many stupid things.

    Remember. "If it looks to good to be true"....


    I will disagree with one point though, if someone can take an Idea and improve and expand it to be of greater value to the consumer, then that is a plus. Unfortunately
    the fast buck artists don't care! They are in every business and profession around and it's up to you, I and other honest marketers to communicate this point of view in any format we have available, Blog, Forum, Article, Newsletter, Social Sites, etc.

    At least some will see it and take heed to the message. Now in closing I will say this, there are many, many very good marketers out there and it's up to each of us to find those we can trust. One of the "Best" in my book is a member here named Paul Myers
    who I have never talked to personally, but I'm on his list and he has supplied me with an endless amount of quality Info over a two year period and only tried to sell me a half dozen times. There are countless others TOO! If you have a blog I would suggest using your forum piece and also do an article. If I can have your permission, I would like to post it on my blog? Let me know.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583928].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by gb4biz View Post

      If you have a blog I would suggest using your forum piece and also do an article. If I can have your permission, I would like to post it on my blog? Let me know.
      Good idea. I think I'll do that now.

      Sure you can post this or link to it from your blog. A link to my blog would be appreciated in that event.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584003].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author g00db0y
    I guess you're absolutely right Easy Cash. Everything eventually come down to $$
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[583988].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kelvin Nikkel
    Thank you for this! I totally agree with you and it is because of this that I write my own products. It is also because of this that I have NEVER bought a so called Guru's guide to riches book. I really don't have faith in them.

    There are a few IMers out there though whom I tend to trust and if I had the opportunity to buy, I would definitely buy from them. Mainly from what I have witnessed here on WF.

    Thanks again

    Kelvin
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584552].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author AlexKaplo
    Great post,

    In reality I had no clue "top" marketers outsource their courses, programs, ebooks, etc. Very informative information you posted and I certainly pulled many lessons from it. Thanks for sharing and your rant is perfectly fine as this truly is a big issue which cannot be solved.

    Like everywhere else, there's ethical and unethical people. You have the judge and make the wise decision to invest or not.

    Alex Kaplo
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584715].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DavidVincentMuir
    All I can say is...100% spot on!
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[584952].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sbecom
    Thank you dear Tim,

    I almost fell into a similar trap. The marketing gurus (2 of them) on PPC got me hooked with their "First Month Free, then monthly $xxx" training. They said I could easily walkout before the end of the month and I wouldn't be required to pay 1 cent.

    On their site, I checked for a link to unsubscribe. There was none!

    I got suspicious. I began getting their emails (of course, with a "unsubscribe here" link included). I tried that link to unsubscribe myself from their emails. I thought I had the seen the last of these 2 gurus.

    But, no! The emails kept coming to my email address regularly, sometimes more than 1 each day! That proved that these are nothing but scamsters!

    I have created a filter in my email account to directly delete any more mails from them. Also, let them ask me for even 1 dollar after the "Free" month is over... they will find then that they shouldn't have existed!

    Let's device some tactics like this to deal with these spammers and scamsters.

    Regards,

    Thanks again!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585272].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jshm2
    I'm scratching my head with this one. Surely you should look at the house before throwing stones! The very fact that all marketers and advertisers (not the same person believe me) are to a certain extent liars should not be lost on anyone.

    Before you start frothing I'm not talking about personal character I'm talking about the art of selling and promoting require a little exaggeration and even some little underhanded tricks, within the law of course, to push a potential into a certain buyer.

    The law states that a product must deliver what it is advertised to. This does not mean that all those hot chicks and all that pile of cash in the ad should be in your bedroom the instant you purchase. But the benefit or claim must be achievable.

    If it works and does the job then does it matter? It's like saying if you get a paracetamol from your doctor it will work faster than the paracetamol from the local shop. It's the size of the pill that matters not where it's from. Same thing with self help or medical books do you think the author has been through the same problems or has had someone else write it with him giving the outline and the pay?

    I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "you must be an expert to make your own product and if outsourced it must be done by an expert", line. I'm no expert in half the things I make a nice sum of money writing about, but I know my sources and know even an expert can't compete with proper research so lets take a reality check here. George Bush was hardly an expert was he? Do you think the TV, Video and Newspaper industry writes it's own stuff? Most TV shows are rehashed crap from abroad and adapted by other people, all the producers do is add the finish and on air it goes. Videos are usually remakes of short stories or novells, newspaper articles are also usually written by second rate writers.

    I'm a writer myself and it's one of the reasons I stepped back from the mainstream industry as it's become a dirty game. So the next time you pick up a newspaper or book you maybe want to think how much of this is expertise how much good research,
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585371].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by jshm2 View Post

      Before you start frothing I'm not talking about personal character I'm talking about the art of selling and promoting require a little exaggeration and even some little underhanded tricks, within the law of course, to push a potential into a certain buyer.
      Dude that's perverse. If you feel that way about selling - and I know a lot of people do - then have at it but it's not by any stretch the sole definition of what selling and promoting is about.

      Yes buyers enjoy the hype and excitement (whether they'll admit it or not) and certainly a sales letter is about helping people buy but the idea that we must push, fool, and get over on people is ASS BACKWARDS in my opinion.

      If you feel like you have to trick people into buying your stuff what does that say about your belief in your products or services? Make fun of this if you will but life to me is spiritual and I don't need to trick people into giving me money because there are plenty of people out there who legitimately want what I'm offering and it's those people I aim to attract.

      I'm not saying I'm somehow a "better" person than anyone else - in fact I won't even pretend to be a nice guy because often I'm not. I'm just being clear about my marketing philosophy. I'm not throwing stones from a glass house by any stretch and it appears you and I have polar opposite perspectives on what selling is about.

      Originally Posted by jshm2 View Post

      If it works and does the job then does it matter?
      I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "you must be an expert to make your own product and if outsourced it must be done by an expert", line.
      Ok I'm a writer to and I agree with you that we (writer types) can source, research, and create solid quality on things outside of our authority bubble, so to speak. But as I've had to point out previously in this thread I'm not talking about content that "works anyway" I'm citing specific cases where experts are selling pure fantasy that was dreamed up by hired help (who no doubt did their best).

      The cases I pointed out and others like them don't "work". Someone who has never made a sale in their life with PPC isn't going to give worthwhile insight to a consumer who wants to boost sales from their Website and it's unacceptable that experts in the market are knowingly selling worthless info billed as authoritative content.

      So to be clear I'm not talking about a typical scenario where a journalist researches and churns out quality material. I'm talking about cases where people are paying to learn specific skills from recognized authorities and are getting fairy tales with zero probability of positive impact.

      That said I know opinions vary and I respect your right to think in entirely different terms on this or any other issue. I just want to be crystal clear in stating I'm not talking about outsourcing in general; these are specifically inappropriate cases.

      Originally Posted by jshm2 View Post

      George Bush was hardly an expert was he? ... So the next time you pick up a newspaper or book you maybe want to think how much of this is expertise how much good research,
      HARDLY is right LOL.

      And true journalism/research is a critical part of our information-driven society I absolutely agree with you. But people who buy cook books from a Food Network expert are expecting to get a recipe , food combinations, and techniques that are proven to work - not some crap I (who never cook) did my homework on and think might do the trick.

      If I do the research and writing and then Emeril looks it over and makes his corrections that's another story. But in the cases referenced in my initial rant that's not what people are getting for their $47, $97, or more.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585512].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post


        If you feel like you have to trick people into buying your stuff what does that say about your belief in your products or services? Make fun of this if you will but life to me is spiritual and I don't need to trick people into giving me money because there are plenty of people out there who legitimately want what I'm offering and it's those people I aim to attract.
        bravo! and I'm with you 100%. I think having your type of attitude means that your customers will be more likely to trust you, and because they trust you, they will buy, but they will also recommend you to their associates.
        Signature
        ---------------
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586071].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Rich Mann
      I couldn't agree more with you Tim.

      I, regrettably, have fallen victim to more than one scam where the author of a WSO or some methodology guru claimed to be a SME (subject matter expert) and ended up being full of S#!t.

      One such scam I fell for a few months ago, cost me three months valuable time and some $ "as I watched over their shoulder" to earn $100 a day within 90 days. The jerk had hundreds of people following in a private forum and then about half way through, ditched everyone and ran with the money. Never to be heard from again.

      100% money back guarantee? BS! No one got their money back and the crap that was being taught was later discovered to be absolute unfettered S#!t with no earning potential. I know, because I worked 12-14 hours a day seven days a week for three months implementing the methods only to see NO and I mean NO results in the form of earnings.

      I do agree with some of the posters, that the term "Newbie" is a bit dehumanizing, however, the term does accurately depict their level of experience.

      I do believe that many people starting out in IM are under the persuasion of "Lotto" mentality thinking fueled by all the hype they've heard from the "gurus" pitching the one click to success BS. The truth is, Internet Marketing is a Business. And just like any business, nothing is free. You either have to know and understand business principles or work with someone that does if you stand any chance at all of succeeding.

      Every "guru" marketer out there fully understands the theory of "perceived value" the higher the price of the product the higher the perceived value. That's the hook. That doesn't mean that it's a quality product capable of income producing results.

      The bottom line is, until those starting out in this business realize that there is no magic bullet and you will not gain some thousand dollar a day insider secret from a $17, $27, $97, $197, $297 or more e-book or report, they will always be a "target market" for any one wanting to exploit them.

      Not to say that there isn't some valuable information in these reports if the author has used the method themselves and can prove that the information produces the desired result. But that's the catch. Because both of these criteria can be faked and the beginner would never know the difference.

      My final thought is, unless a beginner in this business fully understands and comprehends business and marketing principles, has a vast skill base of application software and internet savvy, enough start-up capital to fund their venture and can dedicate copious amounts of time, money and effort toward building their business, the chances of success are small. Even having all of the aforementioned attributes is no guarantee of long-term success.

      But if you think you've got what it takes to get in, get the knowledge and do the work, there is real money to be made. It can be a fun and rewarding business as long as you remember that it is a business and that those wanting you to buy their wares are in the business of making money too. Stop looking for shiny things and fast bucks. All that glitters isn't gold and there's no such thing as fast money in a sustainable business.
      Signature

      Sig went on vacation. Will return shortly smothered with some AwesomeSauce!

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585723].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
        Originally Posted by Rich Mann View Post

        I do believe that many people starting out in IM are under the persuasion of "Lotto" mentality thinking fueled by all the hype they've heard from the "gurus" pitching the one click to success BS. The truth is, Internet Marketing is a Business. And just like any business, nothing is free. You either have to know and understand business principles or work with someone that does if you stand any chance at all of succeeding.

        The bottom line is, until those starting out in this business realize that there is no magic bullet and you will not gain some thousand dollar a day insider secret from a $17, $27, $97, $197, $297 or more e-book or report, they will always be a "target market" for any one wanting to exploit them.

        My final thought is, unless a beginner in this business fully understands and comprehends business and marketing principles, has a vast skill base of application software and internet savvy, enough start-up capital to fund their venture and can dedicate copious amounts of time, money and effort toward building their business, the chances of success are small. Even having all of the aforementioned attributes is no guarantee of long-term success.
        Well said Rich! I hope new readers will heed this advice as it's critical.

        I'd
        wager 90% (more?) of people who claim to want an online business really want a handout. Sadly I encounter very few people whose mindset and intention match what they say about "wanting success".
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585817].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author BlogBrowser
          Banned
          [DELETED]
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586089].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author dwshoup
            Originally Posted by BlogBrowser View Post

            This is the key to the point. Most people are the couch potato type and don't want to work hard, dont want to do their own experiments, dont want to go through months of trial and error, etc. Basically, as you said, they dont want to build a business: they want a freaking handout, a free ticket to riches riding the latest super-duper "online secret". Those people are gullible and those are the type of people marketers feed from. And quite frankly... those people do NOT deserve to succeed because they're not willing to put in what it takes to succeed!
            Although I agree with you that these people are gullible, they still deserve to get what they are told they are purchasing.

            I myself put a lot of time into trying to build an internet business. So much time that I have deprived myself of sleep to an unhealthy extent.

            The op is why IM has a black eye so to speak in the view of the public. When it comes to business there is such a thing as business ethics.

            I finally completed my first product and site and had it all online ready for me to drive traffic. I would consider it a quality product as I wrote it myself and that was with research.

            I pulled the site because my girlfriend truly believes that selling information about how to make money on the internet is a scam. The original post shows why people like her would believe that.

            I am now working on my second product which has nothing to do with IM it is a niche product that I hope to do well with.

            However, as Tim has said, I will not attempt to trick people into buying. I also believe that to be unethical.

            Tell the consumer what you have(don't lie about it) and if they buy great. If they don't buy they didn't want it.

            Too many marketers are using the anonymity of the internet to conduct business in a way that if they had a store that customers could walk in and see them face to face, they would be afraid to use the same sales tactics.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586793].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Megas
              Good post Tim.
              The only thing I can think of is buy products with a money back guarantee and if you don't get the results promised, get your money back!

              It's sad that this happens but a fact though.
              Signature

              Winning Affordable Web Design.
              www.kmdmedia.com

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586825].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Rich Mann
                Originally Posted by Megas View Post

                Good post Tim.
                The only thing I can think of is buy products with a money back guarantee and if you don't get the results promised, get your money back!

                It's sad that this happens but a fact though.
                Unfortunate as it is, a guarantee is only as good as the guarantor. I know many people see a 100% money back guarantee as some sort of testament to the quality of the product. But not only does it not ensure the quality of the product, there's no assurance that you will get your refund either.
                Signature

                Sig went on vacation. Will return shortly smothered with some AwesomeSauce!

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587964].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author oneempowered
      Originally Posted by jshm2 View Post

      Before you start frothing I'm not talking about personal character I'm talking about the art of selling and promoting require a little exaggeration and even some little underhanded tricks, within the law of course, to push a potential into a certain buyer.
      Wow, what a twistedly cynical view of selling. That's about as pessimistic and paranoid as saying, "Not only is the glass half empty, but there's not enough glass to go around and I see all of you looking at my glass."

      Selling doesn't have to be dishonest in any way.


      Originally Posted by jshm2 View Post

      If it works and does the job then does it matter?
      I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "you must be an expert to make your own product and if outsourced it must be done by an expert", line.
      True, but, that was the problem - it didn't work according to the OP. The content may have been worded well, but the advice was fallacious. The "gurus" sold it anyway, without correcting the bad advice. There's nothing wrong with outsourcing the writing; the problem is selling something they knew was wrong to people who don't know any better.
      Signature

      "We can't let fear hold us back. Everything we really want is just on the other side of fear."
      ~Farrah Gray (self-made millionaire at 14)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586615].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
        Man there are some smart, insightful people in this forum. I have to get in here and discuss more often. Every time I check this thread there are several new solid additions.

        Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

        Spend time on this forum, then spend $25 dollars in Barnes and Noble on a good SEO book. Then spend $37 for the War Room membership. Then spend $50 dollars on google adwords for your niche to test out your idea. Then spend $5 on a coffee and a cake and decide on your first 3 websites.

        Set up an account with Hostgator $10 or so and get started.

        Re read the book and spend a bit more time here.

        By then you should have earned enough to have a few more coffees and cake and then you can decide what to do next to multiply your earnings.
        I think that's a good example outline. And I think Dave Taylor's Idiot Guide To Growing Your Business With Google is a good SEO book, though there's probably more current material out there now.

        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        When I was fresh out of college Dow Chemical wanted me to write a report for them - first off I had references from my professors that I was up to the assignment. Second, I was new enough to be naive. When I asked them to sign the facts that I was handed so if things went legal over libel, it would be their suit and I wouldn't be involved. Well - their facts were nothing but a sheet of lies and they dropped me off like a hot potato. I was being set up to take the fall if they encountered legal problems. They didn't expect me to realize that.
        That's a great story. Again confirming how many industries are pushing "authoritative" info that's far from centered.

        Originally Posted by BlogBrowser View Post

        This is the key to the point. Most people are the couch potato type and don't want to work hard, dont want to do their own experiments, dont want to go through months of trial and error, etc. Basically, as you said, they dont want to build a business: they want a freaking handout, a free ticket to riches riding the latest super-duper "online secret". Those people are gullible and those are the type of people marketers feed from. And quite frankly... those people do NOT deserve to succeed because they're not willing to put in what it takes to succeed!
        I agree. These pseudo entrepreneurs are a real hot button issue with me. I don't want to be cruel but it just irks me to no end how people talk success, act just the opposite, and then throw a fit about not getting good results.

        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        I confess I outsource a lot of my articles and press releases, or like Paul Myers would call them "teaser pieces", nevertheless they are outsourced to people who know what the hell they are talking about.
        That's great. I hire help for graphics, articles, support tickets, and the like. Outsourcing is smart as long as hired help aren't providing "expert" advice that's not being checked for quality.

        Of course there are always risks. For instance I had to fire a support tech this year who almost got me sued - I'm still cleaning up the mess created and working to make amends; this whole affair took the wind out of me in some ways re: hired help but I just have to take responsibility and be more careful.

        Originally Posted by jshm2 View Post


        Writing is like poetry in that the beauty lies not in one verse or stanza but in the poem as a whole and the reader walks away changed for the better from reading it.
        Good stuff. I appreciate the opportunity to have a real impact on my readers' lives whatever the topic I'm writing on and that may be one of the reasons the issues in my OP got so deeply under my skin.

        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        Due diligence is important but it helps a lot to have been around a bit so you have an idea what's going on.
        You're right. And the tough thing is that's something that comes with time and attention, thus there's no ironclad solution to prevent new people from getting burned.

        Originally Posted by oneempowered View Post

        Wow, what a twistedly cynical view of selling. That's about as pessimistic and paranoid as saying, "Not only is the glass half empty, but there's not enough glass to go around and I see all of you looking at my glass."

        Selling doesn't have to be dishonest in any way.
        Right on. As Zig Ziglar says we (marketers/sales people) are "assistant buyers" just helping qualified prospects see the value and make a purchase that will improve their lives.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586749].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Some copywriters farm out assignments so that a $25,000 letter might be written by a $500 junior copywriter.... however... in that case the copywriter should spend some time on it and spiff up the copy before its released. That's what is being paid for.

    I don't care if a Guru has writers do the dirty work, but that information should have come from the guru, outlined by the guru, and/or reviewed in every detail by the guru.

    The problem for the consumer is that they have no idea who is spilling all their best information and who is just slinging ****.
    Signature

    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585560].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author christyn1224
    Great Post, Tim!

    I don't personally have anything against outsourcing if one doesn't feel capable enough to write something entirely on his/her own, but in the end, it's the person slapping their name on the product that should double check it for accuracy...

    I write the majority of my content by myself and for those rare pieces I don't write, I provide the ghostwriter with information on what I want included in the work. Once received, I reread and edit it to make it my own. (I am a tad bit of a perfectionist and a stickler for items I release sounding like me. )
    Signature
    ~Christy Edwards~
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585624].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jkatzenback
    funny there was a recent clickbank product that promised traffic and the sales page used traffic stats from the owners other clickbank product and passed off the traffic as being from his tool instead of the thousands of emails that were sent. caveat emptor!
    Signature
    100%FREE Backlinks -->http://TrafficLaunchPad.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585735].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Anthony J Namata
    It has to be said, this post is spot on. I practically want to regurgitate every time I come across some of these sales pitches. And you know what, like you hinted, there is a big fat tubo lardo I know of (clearly overweight the *******!) who is unashamedly using other peoples' bodies and preaching weight-loss off the back of that. Can you imagine that!!! I am appalled! He only shows his chubby face on the site (I can tell a fatso from like a mile way...who are you kiddin'!). BUT I WON'T NAME HIM.

    Thank you for an excellent post. We should actually PROMOTE this thread. I know I will.

    Anthony
    Signature

    Express Article Rewriting & Proofreading Services via Freelancer, from the author of How to Turn a Dull Article Into a Blockbuster. Download FREE eBook! Here's the link: https://www.freelancer.com/u/tojona.html

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585877].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Tim,

      Due diligence is important but it helps a lot to have been around a bit so you have an idea what's going on.

      For example, I recently got a system which a guru said was high value and had been created especially for his/her list of buyers. I happen to know it was originally a low-cost WSO here which somebody then did a PLR version of and which is now a download on various membership sites. Not impressed.

      I had heard some negative comments about this marketer before but gave them the benefit of the doubt. Now I am much more sceptical of their claims.

      Martin
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585912].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jshm2
    I think there is confusion over the issue of content production and content sale (infotail or information selling) I'm an old hand at content production and work for a publishing company among other things and am just starting my own company. I don't think there is any other profitable way yet to mass produce info products at such small time schedules without outsourcing is what I am getting at.

    One man and his site operations are liked by Yahoogle because it is non-spun content and written with the reader in mind, as are most quality books. I think what you're referring to is people who generate for profit rather than provide something of use. I've ditched quite a few would be writers who would provide work that read poorly but was on a high demand sector.

    Ebook publishing it seems to be has become the ******* child of real book publishing where people can no longer wait (or have the skill) to publish and people (newbies?) demand niche information which they cannot be bothered to research, have the skill to research, or just don't know what they want and fall prey to "get indexed by google now!" or make a billion on adsense for 29.99!" scams.

    I'm sure there are people in the e-publishing sector who could become quality writers if they just take the time to learn the art (and it is) of writing instead of churning out the next info product for profit and leaving a wake of disappointed and short changed readers behind them.

    Writing is like poetry in that the beauty lies not in one verse or stanza but in the poem as a whole and the reader walks away changed for the better from reading it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585903].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
    This is a horrid epidemic that is going on. People using so called 'super marketing techniques' to get new people. I'm in the process of working to get one removed currently, as it is just a horrid horrid way for newbies to make money. Its such a faulty system that it might NEVER happen.

    Seriously, anyone with a 6th grade education can make decent money if they know proper grammar and can write articles.

    It is seriously just too easy to get money TODAY by having a client or who pay for some articles.

    This kind of behavior among the scammers just disgusts me in a way where I want to just wretch and throw a large object at their face.
    Signature

    Simple Mission Statement "Under the Radar and Over the Top!"
    Sean's Guide To The Forum
    Thoughts of a 22 Year Old Marketer

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[585942].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Texson5
    Hi Tim, thank you for writing this.

    I am a "newbie" but I was even starting to wonder about some of this IM stuff
    myself.

    Jess
    Signature

    Micro Workouts 1 to 2 minutes to healthy and fit.


    www.microworkouts.net

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586032].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I have to wonder why a reputable outsourcer would even hire someone for a project that wasn't an expert in the field they were writing about without handing them the talking points.

    Next I wonder about ghost writers who would accept such a project.

    When I was fresh out of college Dow Chemical wanted me to write a report for them - first off I had references from my professors that I was up to the assignment. Second, I was new enough to be naive. When I asked them to sign the facts that I was handed so if things went legal over libel, it would be their suit and I wouldn't be involved. Well - their facts were nothing but a sheet of lies and they dropped me off like a hot potato. I was being set up to take the fall if they encountered legal problems. They didn't expect me to realize that.

    Secondly - after all the crap that's been floating the net for so long it would seem that the buyer would be wary about anything written that is "trend" material. Look at this Niche marketing crap. Niche this niche that - everywhere "niche marketing" information. Shouldn't that be a major clue that material is being parroted or that a title is being used to sell any piece of crap? Niche marketing isn't new - it's always been around. What is new is that we have the capability now to do consumer based, rather than product based, marketing to develop business strategies. Yet the net is flooded with info about "niche marketing". Good grief. How many ways can someone say "pinpoint a product that people want - this is how to find out what they are looking for" before it has all been said? About the time you see a million search results when you search for something it's time you can start figuring you are going to be seeing repeat material or complete bs. It shouldn't take pages of discussion to figure that one out.
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586038].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
    Tim, what a great post.

    And although I do agree with some points like those made by Chris W. Sutton, I also do agree with you mostly.

    Now, outsourcing can be extremely powerful, but you are right, the line must be drawn somewhere.

    I confess I outsource a lot of my articles and press releases, or like Paul Myers would call them "teaser pieces", nevertheless they are outsourced to people who know what the hell they are talking about.

    Yet I would never dare to outsource a paid product.

    But before I close, I'm completely against guru bashing, I've seen some kickass guru products with information I know works (although I've never had to pay for them), but then again I don't know which one you are talking about so I can't argue with you there.

    Anyway, great post Tim, I'll give it 5 stars as well.
    Signature
    Como Ganar Dinero Por Internet - Spanish Make Money Online Site

    Daniel Molano
    - LinkedIn Profile
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586137].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
      As more people lose their jobs around the world in the coming months, there will be sharks, crocs and alligators waiting to get their jaws around the poor guy's redundancy money :-(

      Spend time on this forum, then spend $25 dollars in Barnes and Noble on a good SEO book. Then spend $37 for the War Room membership. Then spend $50 dollars on google adwords for your niche to test out your idea. Then spend $5 on a coffee and a cake and decide on your first 3 websites.

      Set up an account with Hostgator $10 or so and get started.

      Re read the book and spend a bit more time here.

      By then you should have earned enough to have a few more coffees and cake and then you can decide what to do next to multiply your earnings.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586249].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Robert Herrie
    The funniest thing of all would be when a newbie steps out onto the stage of the warriors forum with the spotlight baring down on them and says something to the effects of ..."so i should look for something very cheap or free to promote or write something myself right? " and i have seen this thread start several times with not one single reply post...But this is where the biggest pitfall is as far as selling false info (my opinion)...Any way for as long as you have people talking about making milllins of dollars a month without doing any work at all ..Well then you will always have that small percentage of "dummies" stepping up to the plate looking for their piece of the pie (literally)

    OUT
    Signature

    BLOCKCHAIN DOMAINS! Your Brand is available NOW! DONT LOSE OUT! THEY ARE NOT INTERNET DOMAINS! BLOCKCHAIN DOMAINS
    These Domains:Are Not Internet. This is the Future of Internet
    Kryptain.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586842].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Web Dummie
      I'm not embarrased to say I was one of those newbies that got burned by this at one point.

      And I will also admit that I was always unconsciously looking for someone to do it for me, and I considered all the time and money I was investing in buying and reading these rehashed courses and ebooks work. Each time I would go to implement one of the tactics, the first roadblock I would run in to would cause me to go off and look for another ebook or course to solve that problem. 3 out of 5 times I already had the info. on my hard drive stored away.

      It is a sad fact that this happens, but none the less it is a fact. This is the cause for so many failed ventures in to the IM world, information overload. There is a recent post elsewhere in this forum by someone who is getting overloaded within days of jumping in, and it is these Gordon Gecko's of the IM world who are causing it. Sell the dream!

      easy weight loss
      easy money making
      free travel
      etc.

      As long as there are those that keep dreaming they can have everything without hours invested and hard work, at least in the beginning. There will always be a market for theses false gurus. Kinda ironic... ingnorance selling knowledge to assist a group in finding the red herring.

      This brings up two sayings

      1. There is a sucker born every minute

      2. Those who can, play. Those who can't, teach.

      One more;

      There are three types of people in this world,
      Those who make things happen
      Those that watch things happen, and
      Those that wonder what just happen.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[586999].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Great post Tim. Most people have no idea what to even look for. I remember seeing a copy of that idiotic crap put out by Don Lapre on the late night infomercials. It was at that moment, I realized that I needed to split my game from being strictly a corporate B2B tech solutions provider, and allowing the right hemisphere of my brain to get involved at the trench level of IM. If someone like Lapre can make $ packaging and selling crap, outdated information of the most rudimentary nature... someone like me who was actually on the ground level of much of the early years of internet development needs to get busy as well.

    So by day, I sell gigantic application solutions. By night, I concoct nefarious, street level IM hustles that actually provide value to the end user.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587027].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Christie Love
    Tim,

    I'm sure this happens somewhere in the internet world, but please do not judge all writers. Anyone who has used my copywriting services can honestly tell anyone that I'm very thorough in my work by asking all my clients to fill out a quite extensive questionnaire to guide me in their project.

    The completed questionnaire allows me to get a full idea of my customer's product as well as provides me with a feel of their personality so I'm able write in my client's voice. The rest is my own research provided by information forwarded from my client.

    I don't deny this form of ghostwritting you're talking about happens, but just please do not disregard those writers who actually take their work seriously.

    One more thing, any good writer will tell you that you don't have to be an expert to write about a particular topic. Being successful evolves around research, research, and research. It's kind of like hiring an attorney to represent you in court. In most cases, your lawyer wasn't actually present at the time of the incident, but he/she can fight your case much better than you could, by yourself.

    So, it's ok to rant. Just remember to make it clear that this trend does not involve every writer.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587072].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by Christie Love View Post

      Tim,

      I'm sure this happens somewhere in the internet world, but please do not judge all writers.
      Certainly not. I tried to be clear about this but i'm happy to revisit the point as many times as needed because it is an important one.

      I'm foremost a writer myself though I rarely sell my services (tried it - hated it - now only for occasional high profile gigs)

      I respect fellow writers and understand those who sell their services are putting food on the table. I further understand that a good writer when given appropriate material by a client can turn out superb authority material.

      The targets of my rant are specific cases where no guidance is provided to writers and the resulting material which I have seen for myself is nothing close to authoritative content.

      I hope this clears things up for you and other writers who are checking in.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[588608].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jjpmarketing
    I honestly don't care who writes the material. I have the same opinion as others... if it works it doesn't matter who wrote it. Of course I don't spend a lot of money on ebooks... and when I did early on... I rarely spent more than a few bucks. I never spent what I couldn't afford to lose. During the course learning via "hard knocks" you learn who to trust and who not to trust for quality valuable content regardless if they outsourced its creation or not. You also learn to sniff out BS.

    But there are those few who are trying to ruin it for us all by scamming and ripping off all their customers. All I can say is that if you are new to this industry, then your best bet is to look for free info on Forums, Blogs, YouTube, etc. from known reputable sources... that people that have been there and done that can verify as being good content.

    On the flip side I have come across content that was for the most part total crap, but had one idea that made reading it worthwhile.

    Of course this thread leads me to the big question...

    I don't even know if anyone has asked it yet.

    Tim...

    When are you selling your coaching program or membership site? I am not asking this to be rude or flame you... but history has proven more times than not... that when someone gets on here with some rant about this or that... they are basically getting ready to launch a product or sell an ebook... or whatever the case may be.

    So I hope you are not going to do that.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587148].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by jjpmarketing View Post


      Of course this thread leads me to the big question...

      I don't even know if anyone has asked it yet.

      Tim...

      When are you selling your coaching program or membership site? I am not asking this to be rude or flame you... but history has proven more times than not... that when someone gets on here with some rant about this or that... they are basically getting ready to launch a product or sell an ebook... or whatever the case may be.


      I can see how this would be an effective way to set the stage for such a product, but to be honest I'm a little burned out on the idea of selling B2B stuff. I still have one IM blog and ezine and some collaborations going with a few high quality B2B vendors but my days of focusing heavily on IM product development are over. I'm primarily following my calling as a spiritual and personal development writer from here forward, and of course will continue to play with any niched ideas that strike my fancy.

      Great question though. Thanks for bringing it up.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[588632].message }}
  • I totally agree Tim! Down with those gurus! Give us their names and we'll burn them at the stake! :@

    *ahem* But other than that, reading through this thread has made me question a lot of things about how I should go about doing things. I would appreciate feedback with some thoughts.

    1. What is ok?

    Ok, we know what is not ok. It's not ok to know nothing at all about a subject, then pass yourself off as an expert, get someone who knows nothing about the subject to help you write something which you claim is expert-advice.

    But let's say, you put up a site about something. And you know nothing about the niche you are going into, but you're willing to learn. As the time goes by, you read and learn, and write. So I guess that it is ok, because you're not passing yourself off as an expert, and you are not charging any money... Right? So would it be bad to outsource your writing to someone who knows nothing about the subject, but they are going to conduct their research thoroughly and make sure the content is top notch?

    Well, I think writing things is ok, as long as you don't claim that you are an expert when you are not, and that you're giving expert advice.

    2. Is it ok to sell information products if you are not an expert?

    Well, I guess you don't really have to be an expert in something to sell information about it. As long as you are selling good information, and you don't pass yourself off as an expert on a subject.

    So, what about people who take PLR products, and repackage them for sale? Most of the time, we probably don't even know where those PLR products came from, so the info in those products might even be rubbish if someone wrote it without thinking. So I think maybe it would be ok to sell PLR products as long as you check it thoroughly to confirm that the information in the product is of good quality and everything is correct. And I think the big picture is that you shouldn't pass yourself off as an expert when you are not... What does everyone else think?

    3. What is an expert?
    How do you define the word expert? Is it a person who is at the top of their field? A person who know more information about the subject that the average person? Or a person who knows more about the subject than the average person in your neighbourhood? When can you label yourself as an expert?

    Well, thinking about it right now, I think that a person cannot rightly or truly label himself as an expert as it is a subjective term. So can I safely say that you become an expert when people consider you to be one? But then it brings about another question. If some people consider you to be an expert, but other people who know more about the subject than you do not consider you an expert, are you still an expert? What % of people have to consider you to be an expert before you are truly an expert?

    If it is so, then I think there are varying levels of being an expert. You can be your home expert. You can be the neighbourhood expert, or even just the expert on your community or forum. But just to be safe, I wouldn't pass myself off as an expert. If you are highly knowledgable about an area, and have proven it to others rightly, then it need not be said...
    Signature
    @xxxx[{::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::> IM COUPONS <::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::}]xxxx@
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587179].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by Illumination View Post

      1. What is ok?

      Ok, we know what is not ok. It's not ok to know nothing at all about a subject, then pass yourself off as an expert, get someone who knows nothing about the subject to help you write something which you claim is expert-advice.

      But let's say, you put up a site about something. And you know nothing about the niche you are going into, but you're willing to learn. As the time goes by, you read and learn, and write. So I guess that it is ok, because you're not passing yourself off as an expert, and you are not charging any money... Right?

      2. Is it ok to sell information products if you are not an expert?

      Well, I guess you don't really have to be an expert in something to sell information about it. As long as you are selling good information, and you don't pass yourself off as an expert on a subject.

      3. What is an expert?
      How do you define the word expert? Is it a person who is at the top of their field? A person who know more information about the subject that the average person? Or a person who knows more about the subject than the average person in your neighbourhood? When can you label yourself as an expert?
      I think you did a good job of answering your own questions but just to chime in with my opinion on these...

      I don't believe you need to be an expert to sell products, even information. I've sold loads of cell phones online and I'm definitely no expert there - I just found a product I like/believe in and promoted the affiliate program.

      Even info can be sold ethically by non-experts. My problem is when people who are positioned as experts are selling info that's not expertly developed.

      And PLR can be used well. In fact we see this happen all over the traditional retail world; think vitamins and store brand cereal for instance. I love a good PLR product I can spin and resell but I want to be sure the final cut is quality and that I endorse any methods or insights within.

      What is an expert? Great question with probably many answers.

      I think there are many levels of expertise, and it can be said to be relative to the knowledge of your audience. For example if you're an orange belt in Karate-do with six months training experience you have some expertise to share with someone who is brand-spanking new to the whole process and can't hit the bag without hurting their wrist. (off the cuff example)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[589525].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Powertreb
    Well, I'm what you would call a senior level newbie, or to put it better...not a Freshman, but studying for my IM "mid-terms" in my Sophomore year.

    The only book I have ever purchased was Chris Rempel's Lazy Affiliate. Which was good by the way. Otherwise I have always stayed away from outright purchasing of various products.

    I belong to lots of IM email lists. I get info all the time. I download every Freebie and read every tip I get.

    My advice to newbies is this:
    • There are lots of freebies out there.
    • Most, if not all of the "IM secrets" out there are simply re-written strategies that you can get for free from all sorts of sources such as the bonuses you get just for signing up to someone's newsletter.
    • Join Cody Moya's list. For God's sake, don't actually buy anything from him. But I get TONS & TONS of PLR content and all kinds of bonuses from Cody Moya's list. He offers many, many products for download. It's free for the first month, but $97 each month thereafter.
    • I just sign up for the free month, download his offers, and then cancel the subscription before the first month is over.
    • I've collected over 8 GB of PLR articles, ebooks, and software from Cody without paying a dime.
    • The basics are all over the web and free for anyone that has a keyboard and access to Google.
    • Forums like Warrior, Webmaster World, Digital Point, and ABestWeb are great for REAL information from experts who are doing it hands on. And forums give you access to the most current topics.
    • Honestly, some of the ebooks you may actually buy can contain outdated strategies that will actually pull you DOWN in the rankings.
    Combining all these things together, you can learn more than any single course or product will ever offer.

    And it will all be free! Or almost free.

    I am taking Kevin Riley's Traffic Generation workshop right now. It cost me $30. That's it!

    I have gained more from that $30 than I have by reading all the free stuff I've collected. And that free stuf is what most of the high-priced products are based on.

    That right there tells me that most of these high-ticket IM products are a waste of money.

    Anyway, that's what this 1st semester Sophomore has to add.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587224].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
      Joining Cody Moya's list is probably the biggest mistake you ever done in your entire IM career. He gives you tons of useless PLR content. And you could never unsubscribe from his list.

      Originally Posted by Powertreb View Post


      My advice to newbies is this:
      • yada yada yada
      • Join Cody Moya's list. For God's sake, don't actually buy anything from him. But I get TONS & TONS of PLR content and all kinds of bonuses from Cody Moya's list. He offers many, many products for download. It's free for the first month, but $97 each month thereafter.
      • yada yada yada
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587286].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Powertreb
        I think you underestimate some of Cody's free stuff. I've gotten some useful software. I've also gotten plenty of ebooks that are useful to give away as signup bonuses. Common sense tells me what's useless and what's not. I also have over 20,000 PLR articles from him that I use for rewriting.

        Not all his ebooks deal with IM. I've gotten plenty of decent ebooks about health & wellness and network marketing which I use as freebies on my sites.

        I know his lists are unsubscribable. To each his own. When I feel I no longer want to receive his free offers, I just set his messages to get trashed automatically. No biggie for me.

        Originally Posted by Christian Chan View Post

        Joining Cody Moya's list is probably the biggest mistake you ever done in your entire IM career. He gives you tons of useless PLR content. And you could never unsubscribe from his list.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[588221].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Marcel Pamphile
    I always knew this was going on.

    We should probably only buy video presentations and seminars IMHO
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587282].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author thinkrich
    Thanks Tim,

    Thanks for having the coconuts to post this.

    Truth is, it's been happening for years.

    By the way, good choice of headline. It certainly got a few reactions.

    A couple of points, if I may indulge:

    1. Same crap, different package. Some of the "BRAND NEW" stuff is actually 5 years old, in a different wrapper.

    2. Guru-bashing - am all for it (apologies to those who DO write their own material...you know who you are). Particularly when it wasnt even written by them. Trouble is that the person who did write it also comes in for a bagging.

    3. PLR = Open slather. PLR ebooks, PLR article, PLR this...PLR that...
    PLR = Print Lots (of) Rubbish! Then package it all up and turn around and sell it under a different label for 100x what it cost. Good marketing? NO, its greed!

    4. Outsourcing. Very popular these days..until an issue arises, then you may be left on your own to deal with it. Get a lawyer - FAST!

    5. Non-guru publications. Have the coconuts to market it yaself. If it's good enough, then you will get testimonials from happy customers.

    On another note... I recently joined a "guru" site that promised heaps and delivered nothing!

    Not one damn thing I could do with the site, unless I forked out $97.

    All I got was an affiliate link to try to con others. Pass.

    I'm over it.
    Signature

    "If we did all the things that we were capable of, we would literally astonish ourselves"
    Thomas Edison
    "Astonish yourself - start today!" << Me :)

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587384].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by thinkrich View Post


      On another note... I recently joined a "guru" site that promised heaps and delivered nothing!

      Not one damn thing I could do with the site, unless I forked out $97.

      All I got was an affiliate link to try to con others. Pass.

      I'm over it.
      I don't think you mean you're quitting the whole game of IM but this does bring to mind the fact that many people do walk away with a bitter taste in mouth after being sold crap. Another reason selling bogus authority info is detracting from the greater good.

      Originally Posted by joe.marsh View Post

      The writer asked if they had information concerning the subject or an outline and the client said no just write about it. It all comes down to the writer doing great research and hopefully from the right locations.

      It is a scary thing and does happen.
      More confirmation. I really think the issue is rampant.

      I believe it will pass as our species evolves and the Web becomes less of a shiny new toy. Bur I'd love for this to be sooner rather than later.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[589491].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author yomimedia
    I know some people who do these kind of business. another bad thing is an eBook can be rewritten several times so its like making a profit from the works of others.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587667].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    Regarding selling information to people about how to make money online, I DO have a problem with people who do this, who haven't actually made any money online. Or they have only made some by telling others how to do it. I think this is objectionable.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[587942].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Guess this is usual in all markets. Don't you think? Even "health" gurus do the same, "Dating" gurus do it too... Heck, maybe everybody is doing it.
    Signature
    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[588231].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author immick
    Hey Tim,

    Great discussion you have here. When I use PLR, I use it more as an outline and substantially rewrite it before I use it. Some PLR content is total crap and I cannot imagine anyone reputable simply publishing "as is". But I know they do. I recently bought something from a well-known person and it is was full of grammatical errors and clearly not written by someone familar with English language. It was almost as if they wrote in their native tongue and used bablefish to translate.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[589378].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author multimastery
    Hey Tim Thanks for the post! Someone needed to address these issues. Anything labeled 'EXPERT' needs to be written by the expert themselves - or thoroughly researched by the writer they hire. And even then, the end result should be thoroughly reviewed by the "Expert" in order to insure accuracy. Otherwise, as you've stated -- It would be shady at best!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[589423].message }}

Trending Topics