A big no-no I'm seeing in WSO section

ClickMonkey

12 years ago

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R Hagel

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ClickMonkey

Did you contact the WSO vendors directly to let them know
about this? It's possible they might not even realize that their
offers are setup in this manner, and might actually be really
appreciative of your input.

I think Jason went the "Public Service" route rather than the personal route, because it would be time-consuming to write to individual vendors. Plus:

1. They should know how they set up their own download page.
2. It's the vendors' responsibility to read the TOS for PayPal and any other services they're using.

Becky

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ClickMonkey

12 years ago

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tpw

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ClickMonkey

Assuming that's 100% factual, then presumably these vendors don't
really care what Jason thinks, what PayPal thinks, or what you or
I think. You know who might care?

You know who else might care?

Probably the mods, as I do believe this is also against forum rules.

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Jason Fladlien

12 years ago

I didn't contact the sellers - probably should've but I only have so many hours in the day

I mainly posted this for people who might be doing this and not realizing the ramifications... since a lot do it because they see someone else do i and feel it's okay to do it as well. It's not.

P.S. back in the day when I started there were so few tools out there to automatically subscribe a buyer to your email list on purchase...

You know what I did? I didn't force them to opt in before downloading. Instead I simply asked nicely on the download page that they opt in and if I should update the product I would let them know about it.

I had a 92% optin rate overall.

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Karen Blundell

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien

P.S. back in the day when I started there were so few tools out there to automatically subscribe a buyer to your email list on purchase...

You know what I did? I didn't force them to opt in before downloading. Instead I simply asked nicely on the download page that they opt in and if I should update the product I would let them know about it.

I had a 92% optin rate overall.

and that's how you do it...newbie WSO sellers, please take note!

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Shaun OReilly 12 years ago

I prefer to let people know up-front - on the sales page
- exactly what they can expect with regards to e-mail
subscriptions if they choose to buy.

So, I let them know that once they've completed their
purchase, I'll give them the OPTION of joining my list.

I use a standard squeeze page that also has a link to the
download if they choose not to subscribe.

Hey - if they don't want to be on my list then I'll honor that
and won't force them to sign-up. No worries.

Plus, I let people know that they'll be joining my list where
they'll get more e-mails related to the subject area.

However, I don't position it as an update list because let's
face it - most update lists are NOT update lists at all.

Also, rather than auto-subscribing people with their PayPal
e-mail address, I give them the option of entering their
preferred contact e-mail. This leads to a more responsive
BUYERS list because people don't usually check their PayPal
e-mail address as often as their main one.

Dedicated to mutual success,

Shaun
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tpw

12 years ago

Nice to see you around these parts Jason.

I have been accused of that before, when all the person had to do was scroll down the page to get to the download link.

While I don't think you would make that mistake, I know that others do.

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ankur sharma

12 years ago

Jason, last time when a wso pushed me for forced optin. I simply closed the tab and emailed seller "I wasnt able to download your product, because there was a forced optin there. Can you please send me my package without any optin form".

i got my product with in 5 mins. But, its not 2007 when you get the email and you will make money. Now, everybody got 3,4 emails.

One - personal

second - paypal

third - just for sign ups (any random sign ups)

fourth - serious sign ups, whose newsletter i actually want to read.

so, even if you force me to sign up, i might use my spam email id for it.

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

I just buy it, opt in to get it, and immediately unsubscribe.

It works for me.

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Peter May

12 years ago

The worst about buying software is that you feel like you have to opt in rather than maybe miss an update, this is annoying if the vendor is one of these who like to promote a few times a day, in most occasions I will take my chance and opt out or redirect their email into its own folder then if I have a problem with the software I firstly scan the emails then contact them.

One of the main reasons lately for the forced opt in is because of JV partners launching together, the first partner using his account gets the email automatically through the payment processor (wsopro or jvzoo etc.) then the second partner also want to capture leads so to do this forces the purchaser to optin meaning both have leads.

Peter

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Brian Tayler

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Peter May

The worst about buying software is that you feel like you have to opt in rather than maybe miss an update, this is annoying if the vendor is one of these who like to promote a few times a day, in most occasions

Ahh! I HATE this! I have this exact issue all too often when buying WSOs. Why on earth should I be punished by your bad Solo Ads you sold to your list..aka me.. (which don't relate ANYTHING to me or what I want to buy)... and have to deal everyday with your spam messages... only hoping to see an e-mail someday (maybe?) about an update to your WSO... you know... the WSO I PAID for? lol

Sorry just makes me a bit frustrated.

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NitroMarketer

12 years ago

I think it can be quite annoying, but for the vendor you start a giving a product at a WSO price to get buyers. If you provide quality information via a newsletter plus other quality products I don't see the problem with the optin. However, I do agree that there is an app on Aweber you can plug to automatically subscribe to your buyers list when they buy through your link, the only caveat is that they have to confirm, but it may be less hassle for the buyers and also good for the vendor to get the buyers to his or her list.

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SergioFelix

12 years ago

I hate forced opt-ins but when it comes to software, I'd rather opt in and have information about new updates instead of me figuring out if there's a recent update or not (not every programmer thinks about sending automatic updates or alerts).

However some guys (programmers) abuse this strategy A LOT.

I think it is really sneaky when these people force you to be their subscriber and receive all their crap pitches only because that's the exact same campaigns they use for rolling out their updates.

It has been getting so ridiculous annoying that I think I'm going to unsubscribe from these marketers and just check myself if there are any new updates on the site.

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12 years ago

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Rus Sells

12 years ago

Pretty much every single WSO I've bought has forced me to optin before receiving the product. Pretty lame because it IS against Paypal's Terms of Service.

Its quite simple to use your list service's API. I know Aweber has one and I use it to automatically subscribe people to my buyers list. They get the confirmation email and its up to them to confirm.

As for the software vendors who also force you to opt in, that's a bunch of baloney too. A good vendor creates their software to auto-update when its opened.

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BIG Mike

Banned 12 years ago

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David Keith

12 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Do you remember where you saw this? I can't remember seeing it in their TOS but could easily have missed it.

My thinking is that if it is a violation of PayPal's TOS, then the Mods might be interested. The WF has never endorsed or tolerated violating the TOS of any site.

I don't have that info, but I thought the forced optin after the sale was the major reason the $7 script users were getting banned several years ago.

I know they updated the script and it had been changed to be paypal compliant somehow.

I am pretty sure it didn't get banned just for split payments because those went on using the methods the $7 script used for a long time. Really until fairly recently have many systems changed over to the newer API.

And the current version of the $7 script still uses the old school split pay function.

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Geordie John

12 years ago

My problem in general with WSOs is that you sign up to be kept informed of updates and such, then never receive any actual updates - just WSO promo one after another, day after day, until i get sick of seeing them and opt out.

There are some who don't spam, and do actually provide the updates they promised, but in my experience that's probably only 1 in 10 WSO vendors.

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rallenk

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Geordie John

My problem in general with WSOs is that you sign up to be kept informed of updates and such, then never receive any actual updates - just WSO promo one after another, day after day, until i get sick of seeing them and opt out.

Amen Gordie!

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trevstar22 12 years ago

I agree it can really get annoying. I have a number of email accounts
I seldom use. I use them to opt in. I. Find it satisfying that they will now
Be wasting time sending me messages. What I find even more annoying is an offer
I came across last week. Before I could get my order I had to read a huge one page come on
For another offer scroll down and refuse, then go through another offer
And refuse that. Then a THIRD offer and refuse that before I could get my order
It does not inspire goodwill toward a seller who will go to that extreme.
Trevor
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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Do you remember where you saw this? I can't remember seeing it in their TOS but could easily have missed it.

My thinking is that if it is a violation of PayPal's TOS, then the Mods might be interested. The WF has never endorsed or tolerated violating the TOS of any site.

Hi Mike,

As far as I know, it isn't stated expressly in PayPal's TOS. (This information may be out of date - it's about 2 years since I checked, but when I did, I did so carefully).

However, I do personally know someone (and know of others, from second-hand information I believe to be reliable) who had his PayPal account closed down for a "first offense" over exactly this point. (This was a client of mine, in 2010).

PayPal said at that time that they didn't necessarily have a problem with a seller requiring an opt-in for product download as long as it was clearly stated before payment. If it wasn't, they felt (rightly, obviously) that it was varying the terms of the contract of sale after payment (that's exactly what it's doing). I was surprised that they'd close someone's account for a "first offense" on those grounds, but it seems they do.

I openly admit my bias on this subject: I think that taking someone's money for a product and only then telling them that they have to opt in, in order to receive the product they just paid for, is an appalling, stupid and entirely unnecessary way to do business.

It's not only something I'd never do myself: I do actively object to other people doing it, too - and they're not people I'd want any of my subscribers/customers doing business with, on my recommendation, at all. But then, hey, I sometimes have strong views, you know?

:p

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TheArticlePros

12 years ago

I'm not one to just take information blindly. I've been watching this thread all day, and I got tired of not knowing for myself. I took the last 10 minutes and actually read the Paypal TOS. You can read it here:

https://cms.paypal.com/cgi-bin/marke...locale.x=en_US

I didn't read it in hard detail, but I did go over every section and I saw nothing saying that a seller couldn't force you to opt-in to his or her list.

I hate the practice myself, and I have an email address that I use just for BS tactics like that so that I never have to see the crap that gets sent afterwards.

If I missed the section where this violates the TOS, can someone cut & paste it in reply?

-- j

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tecHead

12 years ago

For those that do this and ARE NOT evil doers - just people who don't know how to do it better...
Simple Solution... pay a programmer to write you an IPN script that will put your buyers on a list.. you can even take it as far as having the list maintainer then go through a double opt-in process.

I'm a programmer and will tell you that the basic functionality of grabbing the IPN data to push to an email list shouldn't cost you more than $100; (if that much). Better safe than sorry.

Disclaimer: "I" wouldn't pay more than $100 for the basic functionality. Yet, don't give your programmer headaches IF you want the script to write Mom and tell her about every 15th sale.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

CM,

That's less about the sales process being used, and more of an objective assessment of the post-sale experience regarding accessing one's purchase.

Someone is paying attention.

This is exactly correct, folks. Ignore any seller who tells you otherwise.

It is also perfectly acceptable to post customer service issues in a sales thread if the seller is not responding in a reasonable time frame through their outside channels. You don't get to say "I deal with support issues through my help desk" and then ignore the help desk with impunity.

Again... Not common, but we have a few people who need to be reminded of that from time to time.

David,

I don't have that info, but I thought the forced optin after the sale was the major reason the $7 script users were getting banned several years ago.

IIRC, the problem they had was selling the affiliate option as part of the product.

Paul
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- Lance K 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  David,
  
  IIRC, the problem they had was selling the affiliate option as part of the product.
  
  Paul
  
  IIRC? You're too young to remember anything incorrectly aren't you?
  
  And yes...that was the issue.
  
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  Paul Myers 12 years ago
  
  Lance,
  
  IIRC? You're too young to remember anything incorrectly aren't you?
  
  Ummm... I haven't believed that since I was 17. Which was a longish time ago...
  
  Paul
  
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  David Keith 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Lance K
  
  IIRC? You're too young to remember anything incorrectly aren't you?
  
  And yes...that was the issue.
  
  How do all you OLD people know all these young pup acronyms. I had to google IIRC and I am probably the youngest one in the room right now.
  
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  TheArticlePros 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by David Keith
  
  How do all you OLD people know all these young pup acronyms. I had to google IIRC and I am probably the youngest one in the room right now.
  
  I first set foot in a chat room in 1996 at the age of 18...that's when I learned IIRC. I do remember the days before "roflmao" or even "lol."
  
  -- j
  
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  Paul Myers 12 years ago
  
  How do all you OLD people know all these young pup acronyms.
  
  FWIW, ITYM "old school." We RTFM.
  
  HTH. HAND.
  
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  David Keith 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  FWIW, ITYM "old school." We RTFM.
  
  HTH. HAND.
  
  I was going to make a comment. But when I read it back, it sounded just like something my dad would have said.
  
  I quickly deleted my first response and turned up the music real loud to get that thought out of my head.
  
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  tecHead 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  FWIW, ITYM "old school." We RTFM.
  
  HTH. HAND.
  
  Wha'chu say about my Mama?!
  
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  Blame It On The Caffeine 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  FWIW, ITYM "old school." We RTFM.
  
  HTH. HAND.
  
  AGNTSA
  
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  BIG Mike Banned 12 years ago
  
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  Martin Avis 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BIG Mike
  
  Dude, I got my hands on my first computer circa 1973...we invented those acronyms
  
  Surely you meant WITA?
  
  Martin
  
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John Durham

12 years ago

Half these people use alternate addresses for buying wso's just for this reason anyway, so only half your mailing list would be accurate from the start.

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tecHead 12 years ago

Originally Posted by John Durham

Half these people use alternate addresses for buying wso's just for this reason anyway, so only half your mailing list would be accurate from the start.

Isn't that the point of verifying the email address before committing it to a buyer's list?

Just sayin'
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jonmay

12 years ago

Thanks for sharing that, Jason "Best Nicknames in the Business" Fladlien!!

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John Durham

12 years ago

Originally Posted by tecHead

Isn't that the point of verifying the email address before committing it to a buyer's list?

Just sayin'

@tec head,

It can verify, they just never check it afterward... its used only for purchases, so they dont have to look at spam from people they purchase from.

I have learned this having written some copy for some people and having to access to different accounts for different purposes like that...setting up new wso pro accounts for people who need that much help...

So it doesnt matter if it verifies, it isnt their main email addy that they check every day.

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

David,

it sounded just like something my dad would have said.

Wait... Your Dad spoke in geekronyms?

Hopefully you mean he spoke the expanded versions of those...

Paul
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tecHead

12 years ago

Originally Posted by John Durham

@tec head,

It can verify, they just never check it... its used only for purchases, so they dont have to look at spam from people they purchase from.

I have learned this having written some copy for some people and having to access to different accounts for different purposes like that...setting up new wso pro accounts for people who need that much help...

So it doesnt matter if it verifies, it isnt their main email addy that they check every day.

OH, yeah yeah... my bad... I wasn't clear.

By verify I meant "opt-in" verification. If they don't respond then the email doesn't have to cloud your list 'cause the email addy never makes it ON the list in the first place.

When you're pushing the email to a list via back-end, it kinda turns the "double opt-in" process to a "single opt-in" 'cause the email owner only needs 'verify/confirm' once.

But you're right about what you were saying... like I said; "I" wasn't clear...

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Randall Magwood

12 years ago

Not only is that prevalent to WSO's, but people do it all the time outside Warrior Forum.

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taniqueko

12 years ago

I feel your pain once i had to TRIPLE opt in before i could download the product. Super annoying!

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VanessaB

12 years ago

Radio Shack had an annoying habit of asking for my phone number before letting me purchase things. I would give them a fake phone number. Some other stores tried that, and they too would get a fake phone number.

However, no store, ever, took my money first, and then dared to attempt to extract another form of remittance from me, (subscribers have a 'value,' and therefore, their 'sub' is a form of remittance.)

That would never, ever stand in the real world, and the only reason it stands online is because the 'online industry,' thinks itself to be 'different' from a 'brick and mortar,' and therefore thumbs it's nose at the institutional practices and even laws that govern business. There are only two ways to stop these people holding something you paid for for ransom, and they are 1.) File suit against them for it, and when someone posts the story about the hefty payment they had to make for this practice, people will get scared they'll get sued too, or 2.) Start reporting it to the FTC and let the FTC tell them to stop doing it.

You wouldn't go to a local store, give the clerk your merchandise to be bagged and held behind the counter, hand over your money to be tightly locked up in his or her register, and stand for it if after that, he or she refused to give you the the merchandise you already paid for, until you filled out a form giving her your email address.

Complaining about 'bad practices' to the people in this industry has no effect. They don't really care. They think they are 'different' than a regular business and not subject to the same rules.

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Danielle,

I've had a few clerks at electronics stores tell me I had to give them an email address in order to purchase. One real conversation, as close as I can remember it offhand:

Me: No thanks. I don't want the extra mail.

Clerk: I have to get it, sir. Store policy.

Me: What about people who don't have email?

Clerk: You're buying a router. Of course you have an email address.

Me: Yes, of course I do. I don't want to give it to you. What about people who don't have email? Do you refuse to sell to them?

Clerk: Why are you giving me a hard time?

Me: I'm just trying to give you money. Most people like that.

Clerk: What's your email address, sir?

Me: (Taking out a pen and pocket notebook) What's your social security number?

(The line behind me is getting longer, and the people in it are laughing by this point.)

Clerk: That's none of your business!

Me: Now you get it. Where might I find the manager, please?

Clerk: (Pointing at the largish pile of electronic gear I had intended to buy) What would you like me to do with this, sir?

Me: (Raise eyebrows. Grin. Leave.)

The manager was... not amused.

At another place I asked to see the weekly flyer. Started going through it and then said, "Can you show me in here where it says this price is only available to people with email addresses?" That one laughed and said, "Point taken." I still shop there sometimes.

Paul

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VanessaB 12 years ago

LOL Paul, (that was already around by the time I found the Internet.) That reminds me of this one time I went to Best Buy to purchase a digital audio recorder and the necessary equipment to record onto it from my phone for a conference call. "Skippy The Wonder Boy" (who was probably 12) told me "Oh, you can't do that. That's wiretapping and that's illegal."

I promptly headed over to Radio Shack, where I told the sales associate what I wanted. He went over to the shelf, grabbed what was needed, and proceeded to check me out. I think he asked for my phone number, but I gave him a fake one, a trick learned from my mother who did then when grocery stores started trying that.
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Cali16

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I've had a few clerks at electronics stores tell me I had to give them an email address in order to purchase. One real conversation, as close as I can remember it offhand:

Me: No thanks. I don't want the extra mail.

Clerk: I have to get it, sir. Store policy.

.....

Too funny, Paul! Next time, just use one of these:

noneofyourbusiness @ hotmail.com (or whatever free email service you prefer)

thisemaildoesntexist @ hotmail.com

or, if you want a shorter version (and easier to remember at your, umm, mature age

)

fooledyou @ hotmail.com

They can't say you didn't give them an email address!

JSTC

Like Danielle, I learned long ago to stop giving out my real email or phone number, unless I actually wanted to be on their list!

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VanessaB

12 years ago

Just for the record, I only will engage with the fake email address if it is asked for before the sale and/or fully disclosed in any 'advertisement.'

If it's not disclosed pre-checkout, you don't get it at all, and by God if you take my money first and don't give me what I paid for, I'm not giving you even so much as a fake address. I'm calling my attorney, because frankly, I'm a tired of amateurish, lawless cowboys who don't respect things like 'contractual obligations,' and disclosures, and just too many other things to name.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

No-one is objecting to anything that's disclosed properly up front.

Exactly so.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

It's not about the deal. It's about being clear on what the deal really is.

That's a simple English translation of exactly what PayPal said, when they froze my client's account.

They called it "varying the contractual terms after payment", and said they might have reacted differently to it, if it had been either disclosed in the first place, or automated.

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

people have even request I offend them in this way.

People have specifically requested that you don't tell them that you require an opt-in until after they've paid?!

I must have misunderstood you, somehow. No disrespect, Colin, but it's really not trivially easy to believe this, you know?

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

it is not against PayPal's rules, I asked, albeit a good while back.

Maybe not. (It wasn't when I last looked). But they still close people's accounts for it - the very first time someone complains to them.

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

I'm amazed that people think it is better to auto-subscribe someone's email without their agreement or permission.

I certainly think that, for all sorts of reasons which I'm happy to explain, if you want me to and the rest of the thread really hasn't made it clear.

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

Scurries off to hide behind a good strong wall

Don't hide yourself away from the reality, Colin. It's your PayPal account you're risking, here, if you really do this!

:p

Originally Posted by DanielleS

If it's not disclosed pre-checkout, you don't get it at all, and by God if you take my money first and don't give me what I paid for, I'm not giving you even so much as a fake address. I'm calling my attorney

Ooh, that's fighting talk!

I'm firmly on your side, obviously ... but even I haven't got quite that far, yet, with these people.

Tolerant, easy-going person that I am, I don't even report them to PayPal (knowing perfectly well that they may well lose their account, if I do) - I just opt in, download and then opt out, if I want to.

Maybe I should do more, really. After all, if everyone did, we could immediately put a stop to this behavior. (But they won't, will they?). Thank you - your comment has given me pause for thought, at least.

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Colin Palfrey

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

People have specifically requested that you don't tell them that you require an opt-in until after they've paid?!

No disrespect, Colin, but it's really not trivially easy to believe this, you know?

I tell them in advance, but signing up after paying and not being illegally autosigned up to their PayPal address is certainly something I've been asked for, yes. As I said, people don't always use their PayPal email addresses.

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Maybe not. (It wasn't when I last looked). But they still close people's accounts for it - the very first time someone complains to them.

That is because of changing the terms of the sale. I mention it up-front.

However, if you have added them to your autoresponder without their permission you have still changed the terms of the sale. I asked PayPal and they said that if I was adding someone to a list in any way, I needed to disclose it up front - so I do.

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I certainly think that, for all sorts of reasons which I'm happy to explain, if you want me to and the rest of the thread really hasn't made it clear.

It still remains illegal to add someone to a list without their express permission. That is the law. Just because 'everyone is doing it' does not make it legal.

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Don't hide yourself away from the reality, Colin. It's your PayPal account you're risking, here, if you really do this!

:p

This is why I phone them up and talk to them whenever I have questions, in advance of taking action. I never take action based on rumor.

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VanessaB

12 years ago

Actually, Colin, I can't speak for the laws in Ireland, but in the US, it is not illegal to send commercial email to people who have never opted in. Additionally, if there is already a business relationship, (as in they have done business with you,) there is already a business relationship and hence, permission is not needed.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever, with getting email from marketers, whose lists I did not opt in to. My brick and mortar generated 85% of it's revenue from direct mail marketing, to people who didn't even know I existed until I mailed them, and who desperately needed what I had to offer. No one even 'knew' to 'want' my mail. But they got it.

I do however, take issue with a merchant that 'demands' an additional form of remittance from me, after they have my money, without having told me up front that it would cost $xx.xx PLUS 'email' ( the $1.00 per subscriber value equivalent that my email is).

Alexa,
I wouldn't report them to PayPal. I don't want to put anyone 'out' of business. PayPal is one of the biggest racketeers in the game (and I would love to see them brought up on RICO charges, but I doubt that will ever happen.) But to lose your PayPal account still doesn't get the 'message' through to the cowboys.. which is "THINK! If a brick and mortar can't get away with this, what makes you think you can or even should?" These are the types of 'practices' that get people shouting, "Regulate, regulate, regulate" which hands more power to people in power, which is never a good idea, but obviously a necessary one...

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Rus Sells

12 years ago

You are absolutely right as long as the commercial intent is made clear in the subject line and a clearly displayed opt-out option that actually works in included in the email.

I see many product vendors right here on the WF that blank space the opt-out section so far below the content that readers never see it unless they happen to scroll down. That is against the law plain and simple.

Also many are sending emails to customers promoting some one else's product but fail to correctly identify the commercial intent of the mail in the subject line, I think they think that because the person is already a customer that its OK. Sorry but even if they are a current customer if the bulk of the content is commercial then that must be made clear in the subject line.

Now in regards to making people OPT-IN to a list before receiving a product, if its clearly stated in the T.O.S. or the copy, the latter isn't a requirement I believe then its not illegal by any sense. Businesses do have a right to communicate with existing customers but must always give an option to the customer to no longer receive communications as well.

Big Mike has asked to see the Paypal terms of service and while its not specifically stated I think they apply it to the section already quoted here by some one else.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by DanielleS

Actually, Colin, I can't speak for the laws in Ireland, but in the US, it is not illegal to send commercial email to people who have never opted in. Additionally, if there is already a business relationship, (as in they have done business with you,) there is already a business relationship and hence, permission is not needed.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever, with getting email from marketers, whose lists I did not opt in to. My brick and mortar generated 85% of it's revenue from direct mail marketing, to people who didn't even know I existed until I mailed them, and who desperately needed what I had to offer. No one even 'knew' to 'want' my mail. But they got it.

I do however, take issue with a merchant that 'demands' an additional form of remittance from me, after they have my money, without having told me up front that it would cost .xx PLUS 'email' ( the $1.00 per subscriber value equivalent that my email is).

Alexa,
I wouldn't report them to PayPal. I don't want to put anyone 'out' of business. PayPal is one of the biggest racketeers in the game (and I would love to see them brought up on RICO charges, but I doubt that will ever happen.) But to lose your PayPal account still doesn't get the 'message' through to the cowboys.. which is "THINK! If a brick and mortar can't get away with this, what makes you think you can or even should?" These are the types of 'practices' that get people shouting, "Regulate, regulate, regulate" which hands more power to people in power, which is never a good idea, but obviously a necessary one...

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Alexa Smith Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

It still remains illegal to add someone to a list without their express permission. That is the law.

You'll understand that I'm going to believe and depend on what a couple of lawyers have told me, rather than your impression above, Colin (with which others here also seem to disagree, judging by the posts above). So we'll just have to agree to differ about that specific point.

Noted and appreciated the remainder of your post - thank you.

Edited to add: have just noticed you're in Ireland - apologies: I have no idea of the law there, and shouldn't have sounded such a skepchick about your opinion - please excuse me!
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Rus Sells

12 years ago

Oh there's another tactic I can't stand as of lately.

The, WE HAVE AWESOME BONUS for you!
bonus 1 So and So's report
benus 2 Next turds report
bonus 3 Sip Dhits awesome mega report

Then when you get to the members area or the product download page you really can't get the bonus unless you of course give the bonus contributor your, you guessed it. Name and email address.

That **** pisses me off to no end and some same pretty well known marketers are doing it right here on the forum.

Is it against the rules? Is it a little deceptive to not disclose this in the sales copy?
I dunno maybe Paul can enlighten me on it.

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rontheitguy

12 years ago

So for the newbie like myself, if I just followed the steps on the Warrior Plus listing setup, did I do something wrong? I've sold over 100 copies of my first WSO this week and have had just over half opt in with only 1 or 2 buyers emailing me saying they didn't get the download, so does it sound like I'm OK? This post now has me slightly stressed...

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Russ,

Is it against the rules? Is it a little deceptive to not disclose this in the sales copy?

We haven't written rules for it, but we require that sellers mention such extra "gotchas" in their copy. If someone doesn't, please report it.

Paul
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ChristopherGabriel

12 years ago

Only 1/10 WSO's I've opted into provide me with "relevant" e-mails to the product I purchased, and this percentage is growing smaller and smaller.. But I have opted into a few products that helped me meet some truly great internet marketers, and I look forward to their e-mails every week.

I think Ankur Sharma had it right with the 4 different e-mail routine, works great for me.

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warrock

12 years ago

Forced opt-ins before product delivery is alone not the issue. Many product owners use the Paypal email to spam offers on a daily basis.

My Paypal email is different to my regular email for obvious reasons. Needless to say one cannot unsubscribe for fear of losing out on important updates.

I have now added a spam email to my Paypal list of email addresses. I use that email even in Paypal to make purchases and only check that email once in a couple of weeks to see if there is anything interesting.

The important guys I want to hear from like Jason, Andre, etc. I have opted in with my personal email. Wish every marketer learned email marketing from these guys... they have me buy practically everything they put out.

WSO product owners... well I've never bought anything they recommend since all they send is spam promoting every new WSO.

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Colin Palfrey

12 years ago

I do this and I'm happy to be an offending party, people have even request I offend them in this way. Funny that

I should point out it is for a membership site, and I've been asked as recently as last week if a customer would have the chance to use their real email address, as they don't use the PayPal email address for anything but logging into PayPal.

They didn't want to miss the lesson announcements, so of course they want the emails going to their best email address - not their PayPal email address.

I mention it in the sales copy of any products where I'll need them to opt-in by hand after paying. It is for a reason though.

Also, it is not against PayPal's rules, I asked, albeit a good while back.

I'm amazed that people think it is better to auto-subscribe someone's email without their agreement or permission. That is a practice that is treading very near to spamming, regardless of who does it.

I realize people don't like this argument (it's a marketing forum and all), but the simple truth is that if they have not entered their email address themselves by typing their name in, and they have not agreed to be emailed by you - you are spamming them.

(Scurries off to hide behind a good strong wall)

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tecHead

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin

I'm amazed that people think it is better to auto-subscribe someone's email without their agreement or permission. That is a practice that is treading very near to spamming, regardless of who does it.

I realize people don't like this argument (it's a marketing forum and all), but the simple truth is that if they have not entered their email address themselves by typing their name in, and they have not agreed to be emailed by you - you are spamming them.

(Scurries off to hide behind a good strong wall)

Its funny how what started as a story in the Bible; (when God decided to scramble the language of the land after the Babelonians built that tower); still stands strong, today.

Interpretation is the key, here. I, for one, never advocate popping somebody on a list without their confirmation, (of some sort). Its just bad logic; unless you get a confirmation you're basically pissing in the dark every time you send out an email.

Some stores allow their patrons to browse their ailes shirtless... while others won't let you past the front door without a tie on... interpretation.

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Oliver Williams

12 years ago

I agree some have even set up multiple opt in funnels so that you can't get what you pay for until you enter your details twice.

I have a WSO that has had great reviews I will be offering it for an opt in however I will not be charging any money for it instead I want to deliver something of real value at no charge.

Would you feel okay with this if I provided real value?

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Oliver,

I have a WSO that has had great reviews I will be offering it for an opt in however I will not be charging any money for it instead I want to deliver something of real value at no charge.

If you're talking about "Sign up for my list and you start off with XYZ Tactics," sure.

No-one is objecting to anything that's disclosed properly up front. To give you an example, I offered a report in a WSO a while back, in return for signing up for a list. I was very clear that I might be sending them anything at all, including coupons for breakfast cereal. (Yes, I really said that.)

Didn't stop a fair batch of people from signing up. And, other than one person who didn't like my humorous way of explaining something, no complaints. Of course, I don't send them a lot of email, so the biggest issue never comes up.

It's not about the deal. It's about being clear on what the deal really is.

Paul

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rontheitguy 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I don't send them a lot of email, so the biggest issue never comes up.

Paul, I think you make another great point (intentionally or not) that anyone with a list could learn from. Just because you can send stuff out to a list, doesn't mean you should. There's a reason email open/read rates are so poor across the board...we all get sick of constantly being sold to! Perhaps another lesson we can get from this thread is to actually respect people enough to see them as more than just another potential sale every time we send a message out.
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Anonymous Affiliate

12 years ago

/shrug, I personally dont think it is a big deal at all, and it doesnt bother me as a customer.

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Mark Hess

12 years ago

Not sure why people would be doing this at all... with JVZoo, WarriorPlus, DigiResults, etc...
they have the option to add your autoresponder.

Set the autoresponder list to single optin, you capture the buyers email automatically in the background then just send the buyer straight to the download.

There's also membership software that works with PayPal and other processors that does the same thing.

With Aweber, there's even "an app for that": http://www.aweber.com/blog/new-featu...ubscribers.htm

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R Hagel

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

Also, it is not against PayPal's rules, I asked, albeit a good while back.

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Maybe not. (It wasn't when I last looked). But they still close people's accounts for it - the very first time someone complains to them.

Folks have been asking where, specifically, it says in the TOS that you can't force an opt-in on someone before giving them what they paid for. I think it falls under PP's "catch all" term, under Restricted Activities:

k.Conduct your business or use the PayPal Services in a manner that results in or may result in complaints, Disputes, Claims, Reversals, Chargebacks, fees, fines, penalties and other liability to PayPal, other Users, third parties or you;

Pretty simple. If your sales process is generating complaints -- perhaps because you're making people opt-in before getting what they paid for -- then you're going to get the hairy eyeball from PayPal.

(Of course the sales process doesn't even have to generate complaints. Note the phrase "may result in" from the terms of service -- lots of leeway for PP.)

Becky

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davemiz

12 years ago

the other big 'no-no' is passing customer emails around.

last time i checked, aside from being very unethical and super lame, its very illegal and might be against the WF/WSO terms of service.

Since I purchased a couple of WSO's... that email account is consistently BOMBARDED with "make money online" crap from people I've never heard of.

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David Keith

12 years ago

When someone makes a purchase, they have established a business relationship with you and its NOT illegal to add them to your list. However the law does dictate some of what you can and can not send them in the way of updates and other commercial emails.

The truth is that most have never read the can spam act. probably the part that almost every IMer violates is the prohibition on deceptive email subjects. Its actually a violation of the law punishable by fines on a per email sent basis.

(2) PROHIBITION OF DECEPTIVE SUBJECT HEADINGS- It is unlawful for any person to initiate the transmission to a protected computer of a commercial electronic mail message if such person has actual knowledge, or knowledge fairly implied on the basis of objective circumstances, that a subject heading of the message would be likely to mislead a recipient, acting reasonably under the circumstances, about a material fact regarding the contents or subject matter of the message (consistent with the criteria used in enforcement of section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. 45)).

There are literally countless violations that IMers regularly push as being good email marketing practices. The truth is that the are violations of the law.

I am not actually in the IM niche, so paypal is not as big a deal for me. But for all of the niches I operate in, we use a shopping cart system to do the email and address capture before sending the customer to paypal for payment.

The IM market is really the only mainstream market where paypal address seem to get automatically added to lists in mass. Most other industries use shopping carts of some kind before paypal to capture customer info. That eliminates all the "not primary email" address stuff too.

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VanessaB

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Keith

The truth is that most have never read the can spam act. probably the part that almost every IMer violates is the prohibition on deceptive email subjects. Its actually a violation of the law punishable by fines on a per email sent basis.

There are literally countless violations that IMers regularly push as being good email marketing practices. The truth is that the are violations of the law.

Which is why focusing on what PayPal thinks about it is futile.

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nasuryono

12 years ago

I agree with Jason here. There should be an option on Warrior Plus on automatically adding your buyer's PayPal email address to your email list.

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wizzard74

12 years ago

Hmm I think it maybe time to resurrect my "chuckhughfarley" domain

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isaacburks9z

12 years ago

Automatically adding them seems like the best solution for sure. Why not just enter your email address in their and follow the sellers steps to download their product.

Their might be better ways, their always is. Good to know the easier way to do things and have them added automatically.

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ImamHariyanto

12 years ago

Not all seller in WSO section like you said my dude

Maybe among of them have a goal to sell their product and build mail list (for next selling), but we can get our wanted product with lower price. It is good.
About late response, maybe it is caused by time difference. We know that all of us come from many country in the world, just be patient because the seller also a human.

The mods build a WSO Section for excitement of warrior member's business, it can support the seller's creativity. Let's think good about them.

Cheers,

Imam Hariyanto

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