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Note to WSO sellers regarding WP themes and plugins

by Paul Myers
138 replies
Okay, folks. If you sell Wordpress plugins or themes here, listen up.

We've had a number of instances lately of people taking themes and plugins that are NOT covered under the GPL, renaming them and sometimes adding a feature or two, and selling them here as original works. That needs to stop. Now.

Several of these came from Code Canyon, the licenses for which specifically prohibit this kind of re-selling.

We are not going to get into the legal debates about whether PHP code that relies on the core WP functionality is covered under the GPL automatically. We're not lawyers, and there are usually elements of those products which aren't covered even if that argument is valid.

Just don't do it.

If the plugins or themes ARE covered under the GPL, you're free to sell them, but not as WSOs. That's basically selling reworked PLR, which is specifically forbidden in the rules for that section.

I don't want to hear "My coder did it and I didn't know about it." That is quite often true, but we don't care. We know how the process usually works. You point a coder who works for $1.27 an hour to some existing product and say, "I want this same functionality."

What do you expect they're going to do?

If we need to start issuing automatic 30-day or longer bans to create enough disincentive to stop this stuff, that's what we'll do. You don't get to sell hundreds of copies of what amounts to a pirated product and then use "My coder did it" as a get out of jail free card.

To be clear:

NO theme or plugin based primarily on any existing product, even on one released under the GPL, can be sold as a WSO.

Copying a non-GPL'd theme or plugin will result in a ban. We will make those as long as is required to remove the financial incentive for carelessness in working with coders.

If the code is encrypted and it even looks vaguely like another plugin, we will act as if the code was copied.

I would appreciate copies of this post, or pointers to it, being circulated among the WSO sellers' groups on Skype and Facebook, and anywhere else they may congregate.


Paul
#note #plugins #sellers #themes #wso
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    I would appreciate copies of this post, or pointers to it, being circulated among the WSO sellers' groups on Skype and Facebook, and anywhere else they may congregate.


    Paul

    I shared this thread in skype for you.

    Thank you.

    This one was long overdue.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Paul,

    Here, here. The old dreaded "My coder did it" is getting very old. I'm sure you guys get that a lot nowadays and yes, I do think people use it as a 'get out of jail free' card.

    People need to understand when YOU are selling a product and taking payment for that product, YOU are the sole person responsible for that product. If it has copyright material inside it then you are the one who will be in trouble so you need to be VERY careful about what you are selling, especially if it is a product created for you by someone else.

    The last thing you want is to end up with a cool product you have put a lot of time and effort into only to have it pulled down hours after launch. Make sure it's done correctly the first time round.

    I just shared this post in the Warrior JV facebook group that has all the main WSO sellers in it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Just a quick note: A developer's license at Code Canyon does allow for use in templates and other resources for resale in many circumstances:

    Regular & Extended License | CodeCanyon

    While it's up to the Warrior Forum to create their own rules, it should also be noted that those that are including code from Code Canyon may well be within their rights to do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bill,
      I shared this thread in skype for you.
      Thank you.

      I would feel bad about banning people, if the rule about re-worked PLR hadn't already been in place for years.

      It's sad watching people argue the GPL as justification for copying when they turn around and ignore the part of that same license that says anything redistributed under it, modified or not, must also carry a copy of the license.

      The copying of non-GPL'd stuff is outright theft. Yes, I absolutely believe many of the sellers when they tell me they didn't know the code was copied. That's not going to count for anything here any more.

      It's hardly an every day (or even every week) thing, but it's happened enough that there's no excuse for not knowing it's a real issue that needs to be considered and avoided.

      Will,

      Yep. And, as someone whose code has been copied more than once, you are in a position to know just how annoying this stuff can be.

      Kurt,

      The key word in your post is "may." But even when it applies, it's still not an original product for purposes of the WSO section.

      This isn't a statement of new policy. It's just me waking up and looking past the arguments about copyright issues, which we often can't properly judge, to the more relevant and long-standing point of originality.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Kurt,

        The key word in your post is "may." But even when it applies, it's still not an original product for purposes of the WSO section.

        This isn't a statement of new policy. It's just me waking up and looking past the arguments about copyright issues, which we often can't properly judge, to the more relevant and long-standing point of originality.


        Paul
        Paul,

        As I said im my first post, it's up to the Warrior Forum to make their own rules.

        My second point about the rights was in response to this comment of your's:

        Several of these came from Code Canyon, the licenses for which specifically prohibit this kind of re-selling.
        This is simply factually incorrect and goes beyond the Warrior Forum, as there are many other places to sell products. If you believe I am wrong, please post a link to the license that backs up your claim, as I did.

        Telling people that Code Canyon "prohibits" this is not only not true, it also unfairly eliminates a great resource for creating products. I am not disputing the rights of the Warrior Forum.

        I used the word "may", which you picked up on. However, you declared with certainty that it is not allowed. Incorrect.

        Now we come to another issue that needs clarifying...What about the Warrior Classified section, which has different rules than the WSO forum? If a person has an extended license from Code Canyon, are they allowed to sell in the Warrior Classified section?
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Good grief. Already with the "out of channel" forum lawyering.

        Simplified explanation: If the license allows copying/modifying/renaming, the rule about resale rights products applies and you can't sell it as a WSO. Not a new rule.

        If the license doesn't allow those, it's copyright infringement, which is covered under the "Don't do illegal stuff here" rules. Also not new.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Kurt,
          This is simply factually incorrect
          Well, somewhat unclear on my part, certainly. Thanks for the correction.

          I was referring to the specific instances that triggered this thread, and didn't say that. There is no doubt in my mind they were forbidden under the Code Canyon license. The sellers admitted as much.

          But yes. There are some instances where some sorts of re-sale may be allowed.


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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Suzanne,
            Wow Paul. You got a face!
            I borrowed it from one of Riley's hamsters. I have to return it by the end of the week.

            Gary,
            There is just too much copying of everything on the internet. It's insidious.
            A charitable word, but I'll go along with it.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Suzanne,I borrowed it from one of Riley's hamsters. I have to return it by the end of the week.

              Gary,A charitable word, but I'll go along with it.


              Paul
              OK, yeah, charitable it was. Let me say criminal. Because that is what it really is - stealing other people's work.

              I have 300 original (ie not thieved, plagiarised or spun but written from scratch) articles that have been stolen. My name and resource box have been stripped out and another person's name and resource box has been attached. You can't get much more blatant than that. Or scummier.

              A pox on all those who steal from others.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Never mind...Paul responded while I was typing this message.
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          • Profile picture of the author JayVance
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Never mind...Paul responded while I was typing this message.
            I was about to say whoa whoa whoa...lol.

            No but if internet marketers get into arms over black hat sites sharing their WSO's they need to understand the other side of it. Stealing themes or plugins is the same thing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sam England
        It's about time...myself and a lot of other people welcome this...and I see they are already sharing this on a few FB and Skype groups...

        Paul and the rest of the Warrior Forum moderators...you guys keep up the great work...we appreciate it...
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Long overdue IMHO also ... Wow Paul. You got a face! Nice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Wow Paul. You got a face! Nice.
      Suzanne, you been hitting the booze again? I can think of a lot of words when I look a Paul's face but "Nice"? :p

      Finally, I got some ammo after all the baldy jokes.
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      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Suzanne, you been hitting the booze again? I can think of a lot of words when I look a Paul's face but "Nice"? :p

        Finally, I got some ammo after all the baldy jokes.
        Ahhh them baldy jokes ain't gonna stop lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Suzanne, you been hitting the booze again? I can think of a lot of words when I look a Paul's face but "Nice"? :p
        Technically, she may not have been calling his actual face nice, but rather she was commenting on the fact that it was nice that he has a face. Also, without intonation cues it's hard to intepret.

        Consider the following examples:

        "You got herpes?! Nice."

        "You just totaled your car! Nice."

        "You just landed a date with ol' Cue Ball? Nice."

        "You're being audited by the IRS! Nice."

        "You found a rat tail in your spaghetti! Nice."

        "Your baby vomited on the Pope's shoes! Nice."

        Anyway, hard to interpret in plain text.



        Becky
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Suzanne, you been hitting the booze again? I can think of a lot of words when I look a Paul's face but "Nice"? :p

        Finally, I got some ammo after all the baldy jokes.

        Now be nice baldy. I live in the country and nice men's faces are fairly scarce.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
    There is just too much copying of everything on the internet. It's insidious.

    Creators spend a lot of time developing something unique and then along come all the usual suspects and copycat it to death.

    I have been to several IM seminars where well known so-called "gurus" have openly stated that it is OK to "rip off" other people's work. They say: "Just rip it off." It's NOT OK.

    Thanks for taking a stand against this Paul.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayVance
    Thanks Paul, I thought some of these seemed fishy.
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  • Profile picture of the author bassem
    hey Paul i think the whole wso section has been rehashed many products for many years now , it's not only the wp themes or plugins but every aspect published can be found else where
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    • Profile picture of the author JayVance
      Originally Posted by bassem View Post

      hey Paul i think the whole wso section has been rehashed many products for many years now , it's not only the wp themes or plugins but every aspect published can be found else where
      Well I think that it's about half of the WSO's out there right now. You have some marketers that rehash a lot of content and it's blah. Then there are actual marketers making products with methods they honestly use to make money.

      My rule of thumb has always been to stay away from the marketers that have a new WSO every week. I view it as, there is no way they are making money off this method because it looks like they are coming up with rehashed stuff every week. I have found marketers that I can private message and give me an honest answer of what they products actually are.
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      • Profile picture of the author Radix
        It's IM gone green, everything gets recycled. I kind of enjoy it at times...nothing wrong with a little WSO roulette to kill the time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by [B

      bassem[/B];6634301]hey Paul i think the whole wso section has been rehashed many products for many years now , it's not only the wp themes or plugins but every aspect published can be found else where
      So what you're saying essentially is there is only ever one way of doing things. Man that's pretty narrow minded indeed. There is more than one hamburger joint in the neighborhood, more than one corner store (heck why do you think they call them corner stores) there's more than one kind of car.

      PS. and the site in your signature... yep, been done before by someone else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Bassem,
    hey Paul i think the whole wso section has been rehashed many products for many years now
    Define "rehashed."


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    • Profile picture of the author bassem
      i mean every product is recycled somehow from another product, it's been a while since i saw a original product with 100% new ideas . it become fashion now to recylcle old wsos or other products , i read many guides about how to lunch a wso and everyone is saying whether you write about something you're passioned about or recycling another product that is already forgeten .and if you read other forums you"ll find that people are awared about this point and now they concider wso's as a crap recycling machine except for few authors.
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      • Profile picture of the author rob-jones
        Originally Posted by bassem View Post

        i mean every product is recycled somehow from another product, it's been a while since i saw a original product with 100% new ideas . it become fashion now to recylcle old wsos or other products , i read many guides about how to lunch a wso and everyone is saying whether you write about something you're passioned about or recycling another product that is already forgeten .and if you read other forums you"ll find that people are awared about this point and now they concider wso's as a crap recycling machine except for few authors.
        Yeah, and cookbooks too. They're all rehashed. And TV shows and Movies are rehashed. Artwork is rehashed. Textbooks are rehashed. Every college curriculum is rehashed.

        Your comment is rehashed.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Rob,
          Your comment is rehashed.
          So is the idea in his sig of a social network for IMers. But don't tell him that. He thinks he's the first...


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Angela V. Edwards
          Originally Posted by rob-jones View Post

          Yeah, and cookbooks too. They're all rehashed. And TV shows and Movies are rehashed. Artwork is rehashed. Textbooks are rehashed. Every college curriculum is rehashed.

          Your comment is rehashed.
          LOL, my husband LOVES to talk about how there are only 52 or 56 (can't remember) basic plot lines in literature and movies and the like. Just about everything we read or watch is a variation of one of these. Many of them are variations of just a handful of these plots.
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Can't forget music either, where the same four chords are rehashed in tons of hit songs.

            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author Angela V. Edwards
              Louie Louie
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              Can't forget music either, where the same four chords are rehashed in tons of hit songs.

              Terra
              LOL, yep. When I was a music major in college, my music theory teacher showed us how the song Louie Louie was a progression of 4 basic chords. (Can you believe some folks pushed for that to be our Washington State song a few years back?? ) The Christmas song "Joy to the World" is simply a descending major scale. Many songs follow a familiar pattern. You are totally right about this.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards View Post

                Louie Louie

                LOL, yep. When I was a music major in college, my music theory teacher showed us how the song Louie Louie was a progression of 4 basic chords. (Can you believe some folks pushed for that to be our Washington State song a few years back?? ) The Christmas song "Joy to the World" is simply a descending major scale. Many songs follow a familiar pattern. You are totally right about this.
                If you listen to Elton John - Can You Feel The Love Tonight, Journey - Don't Stop Believing, The Calling - Wherever You Will Go, Alphaville - Forever Young, The Last Goodnight - Pictures Of You, to name a few, you'll hear the four chord sequence, lol!

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author Angela V. Edwards
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  If you listen to Elton John - Can You Feel The Love Tonight, Journey - Don't Stop Believing, The Calling - Wherever You Will Go, Alphaville - Forever Young, The Last Goodnight - Pictures Of You, to name a few, you'll hear the four chord sequence, lol!

                  Terra
                  Yes they do. A 4 or 5 chord progression is very common in most popular songs.

                  A little bit off topic...your post reminded me of it for some reason. This song also has a familiar chord progression but whenever my sister and I hear the REO Speedwagon song "Can't fight this feeling" we just have to laugh at some of the lyrics:

                  And I can't fight this feeling anymore.
                  I've forgotten what I started fighting for.
                  It's time to bring this ship into the shore,
                  And throw away the oars, forever.
                  I'm out on the coast and *I* have never personally seen a SHIP that could be rowed with OARS. Maybe back in the day of the Vikings or something but not now.
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                • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  If you listen to Elton John - Can You Feel The Love Tonight, Journey - Don't Stop Believing, The Calling - Wherever You Will Go, Alphaville - Forever Young, The Last Goodnight - Pictures Of You, to name a few, you'll hear the four chord sequence, lol!

                  Terra
                  Oddly, all songs that I enjoy. Now it can't be unheard . Great update, I guess. Not my forte but obviously needed if people aren't following the rules.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

                    Oddly, all songs that I enjoy. Now it can't be unheard ...
                    Oops! I mean, haha!

                    Don't be mad, just consider yourself an enlightened one.

                    Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author tresero
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  If you listen to Elton John - Can You Feel The Love Tonight, Journey - Don't Stop Believing, The Calling - Wherever You Will Go, Alphaville - Forever Young, The Last Goodnight - Pictures Of You, to name a few, you'll hear the four chord sequence, lol!

                  Terra
                  The difference being that you can't copyright chords or titles. You can only copyright melody.
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            • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              Can't forget music either, where the same four chords are rehashed in tons of hit songs.

              Terra
              Three chords - that's all us rock n' roll guys need - Three chords!
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          • Profile picture of the author ruki
            Ok Paul

            When you see a plugin that looks interesting but it doesn't have the functionality that you require, so you build something similar (from SCRATCH) and add features would that be fine?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Ruki,
              When you see a plugin that looks interesting but it doesn't have the functionality that you require, so you build something similar (from SCRATCH) and add features would that be fine?
              Yep. No problems there. Just don't copy their code.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Ruki,Yep. No problems there. Just don't copy their code.


                Paul
                Right - good, cos I've read this whole thread to ensure I really understand it

                There are contradictions within the licenses and what is 'allowed' here - so I think I've got it covered from a newbie to getting things developed perspective but please shout if I'm mistaken;

                • Human beings are by nature copying everything they learn
                • They learn from everything they see, hear, feel, smell, touch, taste from birth
                • The Romans and Greeks started it all (LOL kidding sort of )
                • We cannot help ourselves but make stuff that we've already been inspired by somewhere or by someone (even if we don't always consciously remember)
                • We can (because you could not not!) base new ideas for plugins on something that we've used, seen, liked ... [without asking permission from the person whose idea/plugin/thing we first liked even if ours is similar but much much better of course]
                • We could outside of WSO's use code canyon as a base to build from (at least their licenses seem to suggest that)
                • All WSO's CODE MUST BE WRITTEN FROM SCRATCH
                • You cannot use the excuse that your developer did it and you didn't know (even if that is true)
                • People use the same four cords a lot ...(not thinking of selling any of those as WSO's though so just a useful bit of info)
                Question: If you are not a coder yourself, and you get a signed agreement that you want original code written that is guaranteed as original - and the coder nicks a bit from someone - are you still going to be publicly flogged?
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              • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Ruki,Yep. No problems there. Just don't copy their code.


                Paul
                I am guessing if it was encrypted, that they may need to show someone the source code then? Since it would possibly look similar?

                Only saying this because of the "my coder did it" stuff mentioned.

                If you went and told a coder that you need something written from scratch but it had to do this---> Show them a plugin. Then it has to do this, this and this.

                More than likely... it is going to come back looking pretty much the same. With the added features. Even if the same code is not used.

                Also a lot of menus and options in many plugins look similar. Basically because the default styles that are used in WordPress. Many people use those same CSS styles for tables, etc...

                The vast majority of people paying to have software created, just have ideas. Yet they have no idea how it is made. That part is still magical to them. So it goes without saying, that many of them are going to come back with a software based on an idea. So many of these products are still going to resemble the original in many ways.

                Not to mention that a lot of functions and code snippets from other places end up in final works. One of the points of open source. If you find a function to use in your code that serves the purpose, your not going to write something from scratch. That is basically like re-inventing the wheel. Just like desktop software that uses activex controls, or other things to create the final product.

                So it is often going to be that a programmer is going to piece together other components to make a final product. Components that are already out there GPL'd and freely available for the specific purpose of creating completed software around it.

                Same as frameworks like cakePHP, and codeigniter, Symphony, etc... Frameworks that build a foundation that you fill in the blanks with. So 70% of the code is someone elses creation in reality. You created the last 30% that did what you needed it to do.

                O.k... nevermind I am starting to babble. Just saying there aren't too many things written from complete scratch anymore. Without some code from somewhere else involved. A lot of which is GPL or commercial and sold for that purpose.
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                • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
                  I'm really very concerned about the massive assumption that every single WSO that is found to have 'copy' in it, is ON PURPOSE????

                  That is naive to say the least and might I add grossly unfair! [first time I've ever felt strongly enough to use THAT smiley!]

                  Based on human nature, many people will assume that a person offering a service is legitimate.

                  Those who don't know anything about code and couldn't 'read' or 'write' it if their lives depending on it, rely upon the honestly and ethics of the developer.

                  Many products that go on to enhance the lives of human beings are imagined/designed by a 'creative' mind first, and very few of those creatives have the technical skills to actually 'build it'.

                  Dont suppose the guys who invented the first rocket ship actually 'built it'. Architects get paid a **** load more cash for designing something than often the builders do for building it!

                  Knowing as I do - a number of creative people, who brainstorm on a daily basis their ideas to see what new IM resources and tools they can come up with - I can tell you now, that the majority would never knowingly take someone else's property and sell it as their own.

                  If you've ever been sued by Getty images (after they've bought up a site that previously gave away images for free - lol) - then you'll know that the developer of the website/ the webmaster - is responsible and will be sued, not the person who order the website.

                  How, then is this different. Why is the creator being blamed outright and generalizations being made of WSO creators.

                  Regarding the constant attacks on WSO's - as others have said - you make your choice. No-one forces you to buy. In the UK, you can buy cheap clothes, household goods and shoes from Primark. They fall apart and wash badly but guess what - you don't have to shop there! They provide an opportunity for those with less money, to have new clothes for each season.

                  WSOs provide Internet Marketers with an opportunity to buy coaching and resources they need to build their business.

                  I wish people would take a realistic view before making grandiose statements that be cannot substantiated as fact!
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Larkrise View Post

                    I'm really very concerned about the massive assumption that every single WSO that is found to have 'copy' in it, is ON PURPOSE????

                    That is naive to say the least and might I add grossly unfair! [first time I've ever felt strongly enough to use THAT smiley!]
                    There's no question it was on purpose in the case I talked about. He even copied the theme developer's sales letter with typo in it and all. While there may be plenty of cases of hiring scam artists for developers, there's plenty of cases where it's just plain obvious that an entire theme was simply stolen and renamed. It didn't take long for me and others who buy themes regularly to recognize the work. Like Paul said ... this isn't rampant here, but I would make sure that I choose my coders carefully and communicate with them what they can do and can't do when creating your theme or code, and when hiring coders from freelance sites, checking their feedback and previous work will help to weed out the bad eggs.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      There's no question it was on purpose in the case I talked about. He even copied the theme developer's sales letter with typo in it and all. While there may be plenty of cases of hiring scam artists for developers, there's plenty of cases where it's just plain obvious that an entire theme was simply stolen and renamed. It didn't take long for me and others who buy themes regularly to recognize the work. Like Paul said ... this isn't rampant here, but I would make sure that I choose my coders carefully and communicate with them what they can do and can't do when creating your theme or code, and when hiring coders from freelance sites, checking their feedback and previous work will help to weed out the bad eggs.
                      I respect a lot of your comments on WF, and many others on this thread - I am just saying that there are some generalization which are also guilty of taring every WSO creator with the same brush in some of the comments here

                      We have a business where some of the most creative people are young. And maybe a little naive and over zealous. That does not make them guilty of being what is being mentioned here if they are caught out by an unscrupulous developer who is in fact guilty of duping them into believing they are doing the 'right thing'!

                      It is okay to say and make a point of this issue - and I thoroughly recommend for all WSO creators sakes make this a sticky issue -

                      We have to ensure that this is a STRONG recommendation or a set of recommendations that are shared with all WSO creators and all newbie WSO creators.

                      There are going to be a group of unscrupulous people attracted to this forum who will take advantage of others trust and naievity or even their desperation.

                      I have shared this thread on a JV group where I admin. I will from now on do what I can to keep recommending a contractual arrangement with any developer. We could also create a 'blacklist' of any unscrupulous developers that our members should avoid.

                      As much as I want to protect our Warrior Forum members from those unscrupulous developers, I also want to protect the newbie WSO creators from them too.
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        • Profile picture of the author MaximizerMatt
          Originally Posted by rob-jones View Post

          Yeah, and cookbooks too. They're all rehashed. And TV shows and Movies are rehashed. Artwork is rehashed. Textbooks are rehashed. Every college curriculum is rehashed.

          Your comment is rehashed.
          Rob... I think I read this somewhere a couple days ago lol
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by bassem View Post

        i mean every product is recycled somehow from another product
        Let me see if I can straighten this out for you...

        When you create a product that's similar to existing products, it's called rehashing.

        But when I create a product that's similar to existing products, it's called creating competition.


        Cheers,
        Becky
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Suzanne,
          So it seems to be more a theme development platform to me, as at least one other company is. If you create a unique Headway theme like none other, can you sell that. Mind you, I don't have a dog in the race since I haven't used it .... Just asking.
          If the platform is GPL'd and the product you create is all original, I don't see why not.

          We don't stop people from selling graphic designs just because they don't own the copyright to Photoshop.


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    • Profile picture of the author Angela V. Edwards
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Bassem,Define "rehashed."


      Paul
      I hear that sort of thing pretty often, along with "most WSOs are crap" and that sort of thing. I've purchased quite a few WSOs and I've only had a few that I was completely disappointed with. Perhaps I'm ignorant, but I'm not finding too much "crap" or "rehashed" information in WSOs...maybe I'm not purchasing the same ones that others are purchasing.

      Perhaps people are buying WSO after WSO after WSO on the same subject. After a while they would seem to be "rehashed" as how many different kinds of information about a particular subject can people come up with? Doesn't mean anyone "rehashed" someone else's WSO. It simply means that more than one person wrote a product about the same subject; possibly giving the same sort of information.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bassem,
        it's been a while since i saw a original product with 100% new ideas
        And it will probably be a lot longer till you see another one. They don't exist, and won't for as long as human nature stays something close to what it is now.

        I bought one recently on email management, despite knowing more tricks for that than anyone I know. (Doesn't keep me from falling behind occasionally, but time constraints are real.) I didn't learn anything new from that product. A lot of other people would, and should. Is it "bad" simply because it wasn't new, or did I take a chance on learning a new trick?

        Hint: I'm generally pretty good at knowing what I'm good at and what I'm not.

        Similar content is not the issue. Copying is. Otherwise, we'd never allow two offers for the same field, and there'd only ever be one textbook available on any subject.
        if you read other forums you"ll find that people are awared about this point and now they concider wso's as a crap recycling machine
        The question isn't "Do I read them" so much as "Do I trust people to make their own decisions?"

        This is very much like the people who complain that there are "low quality" offers posted. Leaving aside the issue of it being impossible for us to review every offer, our only legitimate involvement in that question is simple: Does the seller deliver what the sales copy promised?

        If so, it's up to the buyers. If someone wants to buy cheap tools from Walmart, that's their business. It's not my place to force them to buy Klein and Greenlee, or to tell Walmart they can't sell the cheap stuff.

        The funniest thing I've seen in ages was in a WSO thread earlier today. Someone was insisting that $27 was too much for a WP plugin sold here. He said it should be more like $7. That same person is famous for expecting ridiculous amounts of customer service for his $7, and accusing anyone who doesn't deliver that of being a scammer.

        I had to walk away from the machine to avoid banning the guy for a month for sheer stupidity.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Garrie,
          Will current WSO be deleted if they are bumped or are they grandfathered in?
          If they're copying code, they'll be closed if it's reported and demonstrated.

          The rules forbidding this stuff are much older than any existing offer on this forum.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Garrie,If they're copying code, they'll be closed if it's reported and demonstrated.

            The rules forbidding this stuff are much older than any existing offer on this forum.

            Paul
            What about those who get around the rules by offering other people's themes and plugins as a bonus, even though they are commercial themes and plugins and not PLR or MRR products?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Suzanne,
              What about those who get around the rules by offering other people's themes and plugins as a bonus, even though they are commercial themes and plugins and not PLR or MRR products?
              If they're GPL'd, and they don't overshadow the actual product, those would be okay. That's within the rules.

              The issue of bonuses overshadowing the alleged product is an old one. We generally take a pretty strict view of it. If the product looks like an excuse for selling the bonuses, we'll nuke the offer. If it's close, we'll usually nuke the offer.

              I should also remind folks that selling resale rights products, PLR, and other similar things for which you have appropriate licensing is fine in the other paid advertising sections. Just not as a WSO.

              For example, if you have a developer's license for a theme and use that as the base for adding your own designs and content, you can definitely sell those in the "websites for sale" section.

              If the design and content were sufficiently unique, you could probably even sell them in the WSO section, since the value is in those, and not so much the theme itself.


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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Suzanne,If they're GPL'd, and they don't overshadow the actual product, those would be okay. That's within the rules.

                The issue of bonuses overshadowing the alleged product is an old one. We generally take a pretty strict view of it. If the product looks like an excuse for selling the bonuses, we'll nuke the offer. If it's close, we'll usually nuke the offer.
                So, as an example, a 12-page ebook with 9 pages of actual content that sells for $13 with over $1,000 worth of commercial themes as a bonus ... would that be within the rules?
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  So, as an example, a 12-page ebook with 9 pages of actual content that sells for $13 with over $1,000 worth of commercial themes as a bonus ... would that be within the rules?

                  LOL

                  Is there something like that out there now?

                  Or is this just hypothetical?
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    LOL

                    Is there something like that out there now?

                    Or is this just hypothetical?
                    no comment
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Suzanne,
                  So, as an example, a 12-page ebook with 9 pages of actual content that sells for $13 with over $1,000 worth of commercial themes as a bonus ... would that be within the rules?
                  Be nice.

                  No. Now that I've recovered from the narrow focus on copyright and looked at the issue from the perspective of our rules, it would not qualify as a WSO any longer. Classifieds, sure. But not as a WSO.


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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Suzanne,Be nice.

                    No. Now that I've recovered from the narrow focus on copyright and looked at the issue from the perspective of our rules, it would not qualify as a WSO any longer. Classifieds, sure. But not as a WSO.

                    Paul
                    I hated putting you on the spot like that, but really had to know. Sorry.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Suzanne,
                      I hated putting you on the spot like that, but really had to know. Sorry.
                      Nothing to be sorry about. It was a fair question, and civilly phrased.

                      Can't ask a lot more than that.


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                      • Profile picture of the author icyguy
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Suzanne,Nothing to be sorry about. It was a fair question, and civilly phrased.

                        Can't ask a lot more than that.


                        Paul
                        Hi Paul

                        This is a great insight and I think what you posted here is on the right track. I have seen most people just rip off the Envato group products and call it their own. This applies not only for theme but also codes. From what I see this has to stop and sold as WSO

                        Regarding the concept of Child Theme of Frameworks. How does that work? Let's say we are using Wootheme, Genesis and Headway framework are we able to create derivative offline theme from their backend admin system ?

                        I Have one framework from scratch in making that will be launched in August but I saw a lot of people are actually doing the child theme of other existing frameworks and sold it. Just need to know more, which one that is not allowed to be sold as WSO?
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by icyguy View Post

                          Hi Paul

                          This is a great insight and I think what you posted here is on the right track. I have seen most people just rip off the Envato group products and call it their own. This applies not only for theme but also codes. From what I see this has to stop and sold as WSO

                          Regarding the concept of Child Theme of Frameworks. How does that work? Let's say we are using Wootheme, Genesis and Headway framework are we able to create derivative offline theme from their backend admin system ?

                          I Have one framework from scratch in making that will be launched in August but I saw a lot of people are actually doing the child theme of other existing frameworks and sold it. Just need to know more, which one that is not allowed to be sold as WSO?

                          This is what I was getting to in my other post about Headway. I haven't used Headway, but I took a look at it. It is GPL licensed, but from my take, it isn't a "done" theme until the buyer makes it a done theme. Everyone takes the components offered and drags and drops to make it their own theme.

                          So it seems to be more a theme development platform to me, as at least one other company is. If you create a unique Headway theme like none other, can you sell that. Mind you, I don't have a dog in the race since I haven't used it .... Just asking.
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                • Profile picture of the author Netafile
                  Hi Paul,

                  What about the instance where we are creating custom designs built on a framework, like Headway themes or other theme generators, where we have a commercial license to resell our own designs?

                  That would not be PLR or anything illegal.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Netafile,
                    What about the instance where we are creating custom designs built on a framework, like Headway themes or other theme generators, where we have a commercial license to resell our own designs?
                    Already answered in #28.


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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by Netafile View Post

                    Hi Paul,

                    What about the instance where we are creating custom designs built on a framework, like Headway themes or other theme generators, where we have a commercial license to resell our own designs?

                    That would not be PLR or anything illegal.
                    Paul answered that, but I have been doing this for a couple of years. I sell PLR sites based on the Woo framework. I have purchased many developer licenses from them. The theme is customized, the graphics are customized, content is added, but just to make doubly sure I could do this without angering them, I asked them and they sanctioned this use. I can't speak for Headway, but when you buy a developer's license for these themes, that is what that license covers.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Agus MU
                    Originally Posted by Netafile View Post

                    What about the instance where we are creating custom designs built on a framework, like Headway themes or other theme generators, where we have a commercial license to resell our own designs?

                    That would not be PLR or anything illegal.
                    When you create custom design for Headway framework or custom child theme for Genesis framework, you are free to sell it, but you have to tell your buyers that they have to buy Headway or Genesis framework separately to use it. So, selling Headway custom theme or Genesis child theme as WSO is not a good idea, because you don't have 100% control with your product. It better to sale it at Headway / StudioPress marketplace directly.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Agus MU View Post

                      When you create custom design for Headway framework or custom child theme for Genesis framework, you are free to sell it, but you have to tell your buyers that they have to buy Headway or Genesis framework separately to use it. So, selling Headway custom theme or Genesis child theme as WSO is not a good idea, because you don't have 100% control with your product. It better to sale it at Headway / StudioPress marketplace directly.
                      From Headway FAQ:

                      Can I use Headway for client work?

                      Absolutely! The primary reason why we built Headway was to speed up the process of building websites. We realize that developers and designers are busy and need to get quality work pushed out at an optimal pace. If you're doing client work, we recommend that your client sign up for a Headway Base license so they have access to the support too.

                      13.
                      Can I sell Web sites, blogs or blogsites using your themes?

                      Yes you can and we encourage you to do so. You are welcome to use Headway Themes to develop full Web sites, blogs or blogsites which can be sold. We do not restrict the use of Headway Themes with turnkey sites, and certainly can't forbid you from selling a site of your own that you built using Headway Themes. However, please remember the buyer will not have access to our Support Forums unless they purchase their own license from this site.

                      14.
                      Can I use Headway Themes for work that I do for clients?

                      Yes, you may and we want you to. Headway Themes was originally started as an inhouse tool for building client sites. We wanted a tool which made it easier and quicker to build client sites and Headway was born. We also realize and certainly understand Developers are busy and need ways to turn work over quickly. However, remember support will only be given to the user who purchases Headway Themes, which means the buyer will be responsible for supporting Headway Themes or sites built for their client. If your client wants direct support for Headway Themes, they will need to purchase their own personal license. And we don't mind if you can have them purchase through your affiliate link.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Agus MU
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        From Headway FAQ:
                        We are talking about WSO here...

                        Selling a theme for clients is different than re-sell a theme for WSO...

                        When you buy a premium wp theme with specific license,
                        - you are free to use it for your wesbite,
                        - you are free to use it for your clients,
                        - you are free to sell your website with the theme,
                        - but, you can't re-sell it as a WSO, that's my point.
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Agus MU View Post

                          We are talking about WSO here...

                          Selling a theme for clients is different than re-sell a theme for WSO...

                          When you buy a premium wp theme with specific license,
                          - you are free to use it for your wesbite,
                          - you are free to use it for your clients,
                          - you are free to sell your website with the theme,
                          - but, you can't re-sell it as a WSO, that's my point.
                          I'm not so sure that would be true. Headway theme is not a "put together" theme. It is the framework and each customer designs their own theme using Headway components. Each theme would therefore be quite unique.

                          In the case of PLR for example (which Headway really isn't) if the PLR were made so unique as to be unrecognizable as the original PLR product, it could be sold as a WSO ... that's what I've read anyway regarding this topic.

                          EDIT: Not sure but maybe Paul can weigh in on this.

                          Never mind ... lol. If we're talking about selling just the theme alone, that would be what Paul was talking about to start with:

                          If the plugins or themes ARE covered under the GPL, you're free to sell them, but not as WSOs, so you're right, I'm wrong.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                          Can't forget music either, where the same four chords are rehashed in tons of hit songs.

                          Terra
                          Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards View Post

                          Louie Louie

                          LOL, yep. When I was a music major in college, my music theory teacher showed us how the song Louie Louie was a progression of 4 basic chords. (Can you believe some folks pushed for that to be our Washington State song a few years back?? ) The Christmas song "Joy to the World" is simply a descending major scale. Many songs follow a familiar pattern. You are totally right about this.
                          It's ironic that Louie Louie is considered rehashed for using 4 familiar chords. I'd say it's "rehashed" because the popular Kingsmen version is a cover.

                          But this only goes to show that to be great, something doesn't have to be original.

                          Here's the original by Richard Berry:

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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          Boy, am I glad I can't program my way out of a paper bag.

                          As to the comment on "rehashed" stuff, the world hasn't had an original thought
                          since the typewriter.

                          Look, marketing is marketing and it hasn't changed in decades. The same things
                          that made people buy stuff 100 years ago make people buy stuff today. If
                          marketers would understand those basic principles (what makes people buy
                          stuff) they'd sell more stuff.

                          I don't need fancy bells and whistles when I go out to buy an electric carving
                          knife for my turkey so I don't have to break every bone in my hand trying to
                          slice through a 20 pound bird. Tell me the knife cuts quickly and easily, is
                          sturdy, will last for years, and comes with a 60 day money back guarantee
                          and I'm sold.

                          Why do people make things complicated?

                          The reason people can't sell stuff is that they're selling stuff that other people
                          either don't need, want or both.

                          And every marketing book ever made, if it's worth anything at all, is going to
                          tell you the same thing.

                          So what in God's name are you people looking for? A map to Pluto with some
                          undiscovered treasure chest of marketing left their by the Klingons?

                          If you think everything is just rehashed crap ... DON'T BUY IT.

                          It's as simple as that.

                          As for plugins, if I ever made one (not that I could) I would do it myself,
                          hand it over to the Warrior Forum for inspection BEFORE I attempted to sell
                          it and THEN if it passed inspection, would put it up for sale.

                          Folks, this is something you DON'T want to mess with unless you want to get
                          your butt booted out of here for life.

                          Now, where did I put that book on PHP?
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  • Profile picture of the author jaiganeshv
    A good relief for creative plugin and theme developers

    No more copied amazon themes or pop up wordpress plugins

    Thank you
    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    That "my coder did it" routine is often nothing but a pack of lies. There was one seller here who made a business of taking people's themes and renaming them and even copying their sales letters. In his first WSO, he said that his coder was the coder that worked with the developer of the original theme and he had the right to do this.

    It was pure BS. I followed up and asked the developer of the themes if his coder was working with so and so and so and so had the right to rename and resell his themes. He did not. It's very simple to plead ignorance and blame a coder (even when you don't really have a coder) since you are basically just ripping off someone and repackaging their work. This seller wasn't even using the guise of GPL licensing. He was selling these themes as his own until he got caught.

    I'm happy to see this change. People need to respect the commercial work of others or at least for there to be a rule against this type of theft.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Will current WSO be deleted if they are bumped or are they grandfathered in?
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  • Profile picture of the author Cossack
    Good stuff. I thought the rules already covered this, but it is good to make it doubly clear.
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  • Profile picture of the author derrickp
    Paul, if we have a legit theme built off of nothing but the based wordpress am I correct in that can't be sold as a WSO either. Thanks for the clarification.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Derrick,
      Paul, if we have a legit theme built off of nothing but the based wordpress am I correct in that can't be sold as a WSO either. Thanks for the clarification.
      Do you mean a child theme off of 2010 or 2011? Sure it can, if it's original.

      Or am I not understanding the question?


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      • Profile picture of the author derrickp
        Paul yea we are on the same page, I believe. It starts as a modified "default" wordpress theme.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paleochora
    Leaving to one side the main topic of the thread (and the limitations of musical chord progession in 20th century western music) I would just like to pipe up and comment on the posts made earlier on 'knocking' the WSO section and questioning the worth of both the section and the products sold on there. It does have relevance with the reason for the thread topic and has not been properly addressed, I feel.

    While I can see that there are quite a few rubbish products slung up there (usually by people posting 3 or 4 WSOs a month - surprise!), I have been fortunate to always find true bargains on there.

    I guess I cherry pick and I don't just buy everything I see or get mailed about but here are just a few examples of superb tools I use every day in my business that I bought in the past few months All of these products I bought for around $20 or less as WSOs before they moved off the forum and were re-priced for the 'outside world'.

    WP Fastmember.....now retails for $97 - $497
    Custom Video Player.....retails on CB for $49
    FB Connect Reveal.......now retails for $97/month or $997/yr (I paid $17 for lifetime membership on here!)
    Best Damn Redirect ......now back to it's regular price of $147 (I think I paid $7 for this!)

    People, all of these products are superb and all well worth the full retail price tag.

    The WSO section is filled with fantastic value, despite what the nay-sayers will have you believe.

    The enforcement of these (old) rules to further ensure that it remains so should be welcomed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michelle Stevens
    Shared this in a couple of Facebook groups
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  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    What about if I buy the rights to a product Paul?

    For example, if I outright buy a product that has never been released and launch it myself. I understand this is getting away from the original point of GPL. But it might fall under the PLR rule.
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    • Profile picture of the author Agus MU
      Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

      What about if I buy the rights to a product Paul?

      For example, if I outright buy a product that has never been released and launch it myself. I understand this is getting away from the original point of GPL. But it might fall under the PLR rule.
      linkwhizz, I think it is okay as long as it is original product. You have to double check that product. Once you buy it, then it will be your responsibility if it is not an original product and get complaint from others.
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  • Profile picture of the author michaelmac
    Excellent call Allen, Paul, Mods...we need to bring some much needed credibility and kudos back to the forum that we love and for a lot of us affords us big time the opportunity of having fantastic/free lifestyles. We should be proud to be members of the #1 IM forum online and clearing out bad apples/practices/illegal shortcuts is a big step in doing that imho!

    Anyone that bats fair should have absolutely no problem in implementing something that should honestly have been enforced a lot earlier. Those of us that take our business' and membership here seriously this is just a case of carry on as before...work hard, work legal and enjoy the benefits.

    Great post Paul...thanks for taking this much needed action; and great to finally put a name to a face buddy

    Best to all,

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    Awesome.... I knew sooner or later this would become an issue. This was a tactic taught in one of the most popular "WSO about WSO's" product.

    Remember, no one has a gun to your head forcing you to sell on the forum. There are plenty of ways to leverage the traffic that exists on the forum and funnel it into your business where you can sell whatever you want.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Paul, thanks for the post and I agree wholeheartedly with this and with much of what every one is saying here.

    In my opinion, I think the next thing on the chopping block needs to be the WSO's about how to launch a WSO.

    Can we address this next pretty please?
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  • Profile picture of the author jalexanderseo
    What about products built using software builders as long as its unique are we ok. Or because its built in a builder does that now shut us down.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jalexanderseo View Post

      What about products built using software builders as long as its unique are we ok. Or because its built in a builder does that now shut us down.
      See Paul's post #69 in response to my similar question. I'm sure the answer is the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author GerryMedia
    We cannot have totally 100% original code because we use GPL libraries (jquery, PHP classes, etc) , we re-use snippets from past projects, and we depend on Wordpress hooks and functions which are GPL.

    I agree with not selling ripoffs but GPL and PLR are different.

    WSO sellers should stop selling "renamed" ripoff themes. And if you rip off, don't claim "my developer did it" haha
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Russ,
      In my opinion, I think the next thing on the chopping block needs to be the WSO's about how to launch a WSO.

      Can we address this next pretty please?
      Maybe. Let me know when you convince Amazon to ban books on digital publishing from the Kindle platform.

      Those products run the gamut from "How to sell MORE of your product through the WSO section" to stuff that's probably closer to a bizopp under the FTC's new rules. The former is fine. The latter is legal, but carries a heavy burden of paperwork and disclosure rules.

      jalexanderseo,
      What about products built using software builders as long as its unique are we ok. Or because its built in a builder does that now shut us down.
      If the license for the builder allows selling the resulting products, that's fine. No problem, as long as they're original.

      Gerry,
      We cannot have totally 100% original code because we use GPL libraries (jquery, PHP classes, etc) , we re-use snippets from past projects, and we depend on Wordpress hooks and functions which are GPL.

      I agree with not selling ripoffs but GPL and PLR are different.
      In legal terms they're different. GPL is just a more clearly defined and less restrictive form of PLR, for purposes of the rules of the WSO section.

      Using a library is different from the kind of copying we're talking about. You know that, but a lot of non-programmers might not. And the worst problems in this area come from non-programmers having software created for resale.


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  • Profile picture of the author zapseo
    This is an important move -- and not an easy one, for sure.

    First, let me give a bit of my background --
    I spent over 20 years as a software developer (I specialized in assembly language stuff; I was responsible for the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop Assembler products back in the late 80s and early 90s.)
    I was a programmer on the first public World Wide data communications network (Tymnet) when people used to use acoustic couplers to connect their terminals via phone to their mainframe computers - that is, well before the explosion of home computers.
    Wrote some unicode APIs for Macintosh System 7
    And, just for fun -- one of my former bosses is now head of Google Video ...

    I recently was given an offer to promote an offer for a bunch of WordPress plugins.

    I declined -- primarily because I do not believe buyers ("people on my list") are well served by buying inexpensive software and here are the questions worth asking about any software you purchase:

    1. how well is it written?
    2. If a WordPress theme or plugin: is it robustly enough written that it will bear up under WordPress updates (meaning -- was it written within WordPress guidelines?)
    3. If a WordPress theme or plugin: will the developer support it, in case of incompatibilities with other themes/plugins?
    4. Whether, in fact, it is actually original work?

    People point to how much is made in software by folks like MicroSoft. What they FAIL to point out is that one of the #1 expenses of a software company is ... SUPPORT.

    And no one can afford to give good support when the software is sold for a song.

    The "real" cost of software is not how much you pay for it initially, but how well the software will be supported over time.

    I know there are a lot of people promoting the idea of selling software as WSOs because of the "high perceived value." I have to admit, I shiver when I see that. (and I have to admit to buying my share of software as WSOs) -- because the real value of software is not the functionality it provides you today -- but how well it is supported over time.

    Live JoyFully!

    Judy

    PS -- I do work with a partner who is an expert in WordPress security. Of the WordPress associated software he's reviewed, he says he has yet to see any that doesn't have a SIGNIFICANT security issue. Insecure software is a problem for ALL of us, not just for the buyers -- because it opens more shared hosting accounts open to being hacked. When they get hacked, that sometimes leads to the server they are on being hacked. Which could be where YOUR hosting account lives.
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  • Profile picture of the author Onora Oz
    Judy, thanks for the great reminder.

    I bought many software/plugin/theme WSOs in the past. I also got some as bonus downloads to other WSOs. Problem with the bonuses is that you don't get updates or any support from the original devs. Most of the times, it's OK on my side because I know the devs are giving their product as a promo trial. If I like the product and would like to continue using it, I buy it.

    However, I once bought a WSO that was offering a very hot premium theme as a bonus. Bonus was a free download from the WSO seller's membership site. I really loved the theme, and wanted the updates. When I emailed the original dev, they told me that they didn't know their theme was being given away. Free giveaways were against their TOS, and their developer license had solid words on it.

    Anyways... Lesson learned. I look and ask for a proper license if I'd like to use anything digital. It's buyer's responsibility (I guess). It may sound complicated to some, but you learn things by experience in a marketplace like WF. Just like in any marketplace.

    About the GPL stuff... I'd say, it's one great lovely change.
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  • Profile picture of the author Palusko
    I honestly did not know that this was going on. Should I be now worried, that someone will go after my clients whose site have some of the plugins I purchased here installed (via developer license)? I mean, I purchased the plugins under the belief they are OK to use as stated in their licenses. If there was any copyright issue, would I be responsible as a designer who installed the plugins, or would the seller be responsible for selling it to me?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by Palusko View Post

      I honestly did not know that this was going on. Should I be now worried, that someone will go after my clients whose site have some of the plugins I purchased here installed (via developer license)? I mean, I purchased the plugins under the belief they are OK to use as stated in their licenses. If there was any copyright issue, would I be responsible as a designer who installed the plugins, or would the seller be responsible for selling it to me?
      It's not that common a problem.

      That said, we're not qualified to answer that question in a definitive way. My understanding is that if there were a claim of infringement, the creator could go after you, and you'd have to go after the person who sold you the product with license terms they didn't have the rights to.

      Note that I am still not a lawyer...


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  • Profile picture of the author reddoch
    Hey Paul...Just for clarity...can we sell themes we personally create that are original to us...not from theme forest reworked or some other location...something unique we have done. Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author DarkN1ght
    As A CodeCanyon author who has seen countless cases of this scum, I really do thank you!
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    I'm happy to see this. There is nothing wrong with seeing something and saying, "I can do it better." That's what makes the marketing world go 'round. But there is something wrong with basing your 'better' product on the work of someone else's copyrighted coding. If you can do it better, fine - but do it ALL better.

    I really get a kick out of some of the plugin and theme WSO authors' attempts to hide their code. When I buy a theme or plugin, the FIRST thing I do is get the coding in plain language so I can evaluate the quality of the product, and verify that it actually does what it says it does. I've yet to buy a product on the forum that took more that 15 minutes to write a de-obfuscating script for.

    Yet it seems that with some products, more effort is put into protecting the [crappy] code than is put into the product in the first place.

    Case in point - there was a "free" WSO a while back that purported to be "the best" for squeeze pages, or sales pages, I don't remember which. Some of the code was hidden by converting the characters to hex codes. What they were attempting to hide was one of most poorly-coded themes that I have EVER seen. I feel sorry for his/her/their customers because if his/her/their other products are coded in the same manner, they're getting pure crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author jayspann
    Here's my two cents on "every WSO is just rehashed... XYZ"

    1. If you dont need another WSO on publishing Royalty Free Cat Pictures on Amazon then don't buy it.

    2. Info products that teach on a topic are really no different then primary school or college. MANY different instructors teaching the same subjects ...sometimes from the same material and books. Do you look at that as "rehashed"?

    Now I don't want people ripping off others stuff as their own but if someone wants to instruct others on their idea how to publish Royalty Free Cat Pictures on Amazon... then by all means go ahead. I don't need my third copy so I probably won't buy it.

    But on the other hand, some people are better teachers than others. When I was getting my MBA I had to drop Calc III three times before I got a teacher that I meshed well with. I ended up understanding the material and got an "A" in his class. While I was lost and barely pulling a "C" in the other classes.

    The "A" teacher was teaching the same syllabus, same material, from the same book.

    However, he presented the material in a way the others could not.

    OK I'm getting way off track... The WSO section is a paid advertising platform for publishers. People, as long as they abide by the rules, can sell awesome products or they can peddle their BSO.

    I'm free to buy or pass on whatever I want. Caveat Emptor or buyer beware. Not much different then buying a car or any other good for that matter.

    Oh and to the Black Hatters stealing your products. It sucks but it's going to happen. Don't lose sleep on it, it's not worth your time or energy. Hell I even got a crazy high S3 bill because they direct linked my stuff on time. So I followed the links back to "their" forum and said "hey guys if you cant afford it or want to test it first I have no issues. But please don't direct link my files, it cost a LOT. Here are the files in zip format, please upload them somewhere else like a sharing site or where ever. It's awesome that you guys help each other the way you do. Thanks in advance, Jay

    Guess what... they stopped sharing my stuff. They even stick up for me when I release new products. They contact me and ask if they can do group buys... or at least let me know that my stuff has been posted there.

    Is it a perfect solution? No. But I haven't lost a minute of sleep
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    I agree this is similar to the PLR rule - good to have clarification now...

    I also shared this in my Skype group.

    Cheers,
    Coby
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  • Profile picture of the author BerlinSianipar
    I think there must be a standard on how a product is categorized as reworked product or original product. Just like in music industry, there's a limit of exactly the same 12 bars for a song before it can be categorized as plagiarism. Can we do that for a plugin or theme? I'm not a coder, but I visually I can see if a theme was reworked from an existing product. The styles are still the same, sometimes only the colors are changed - awfully. How do we categorize a theme / plugin as reworked / plagiarism?

    PS. sorry for my bad english.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    If you've ever been sued by Getty images (after they've bought up a site that previously gave away images for free - lol) - then you'll know that the developer of the website/ the webmaster - is responsible and will be sued, not the person who order the website.
    Thats not true.

    The site owner WILL be sued. The designer is working on their behalf.

    The site owner could then maybe sue the designer.

    Not legal advice...
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    • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      Thats not true.

      The site owner WILL be sued. The designer is working on their behalf.

      The site owner could then maybe sue the designer.

      Not legal advice...
      Having been on the wrong end of Getty and other similar companies for a website that I had built - IT IS TRUE FOR ME - UK

      Disclaimer - no I am not a lawyer, just had this exact experience with a number of these undesireable companies and the webmaster was sued - not me! FACT

      But I thank you for reminding me to be cautious of how I word such comments
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  • Profile picture of the author David Canham
    All the arguing aside I AGREE with Paul.
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  • Profile picture of the author tresero
    And lyrics
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Don,

      If it's encrypted, we're going to side with the other party if it looks too close. That's the seller's choice.

      If things look very similar and the code isn't encrypted, we'll look at both in order to see if they're copies. The guy who does that here knows the difference between general libraries and that final 30% you're talking about


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  • Profile picture of the author penrhyn
    Am I to understand by these recent events that anyone who purchased one of these wso's . Is now in possesion of a product that cannot be used ,for fear of legal action.

    I applaud the stance on this issue which is the right thing for this forum and its members going forward . But we now have some members that may be left in limbo having paid money out for a product they cannot use.
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    • Profile picture of the author zerofill
      Originally Posted by penrhyn View Post

      Am I to understand by these recent events that anyone who purchased one of these wso's . Is now in possesion of a product that cannot be used ,for fear of legal action.
      First you would have to know which one of "These WSOs" it is.

      All this type of question will do is just start a bunch of issues. With conversations spiraling out of control and people blaming this person or that person.

      So your best bet is to do some investigation on your own, and decide for yourself if you should use it or not.

      Also just because it is stated that it can't be sold here. Doesn't mean it is illegal to sell whatever it was. It only means that it is not allowed as a WSO like Paul stated. Doesn't mean it can't be sold in the classified section, or on your own.

      So, like I said this will just start a huge debate With a lot of people jumping in that really don't have any knowledge of programming, open source, or the GPL license. So you will have those that know what their talking about, arguing with those that don't know what their talking about.

      Then the thread just turns to crap...
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      • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
        Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

        First you would have to know which one of "These WSOs" it is.

        All this type of question will do is just start a bunch of issues. With conversations spiraling out of control and people blaming this person or that person.

        So your best bet is to do some investigation on your own, and decide for yourself if you should use it or not.

        Also just because it is stated that it can't be sold here. Doesn't mean it is illegal to sell whatever it was. It only means that it is not allowed as a WSO like Paul stated. Doesn't mean it can't be sold in the classified section, or on your own.

        So, like I said this will just start a huge debate With a lot of people jumping in that really don't have any knowledge of programming, open source, or the GPL license. So you will have those that know what their talking about, arguing with those that don't know what their talking about.

        Then the thread just turns to crap...
        I know zilch about code Don and am like the vast majority on WF

        I am happy to learn though, and very happy to learn how to scan code and how to manage a developer's activities when writing some for any products I create

        I hope the debate continues because it certainly is on lots of outside Forums and groups outside WF.

        It has expanded too!

        NO-one likes the scammers who just openly pinch other people's stuff and sell it as their own!

        NO-one wants to be scammed and have their code pinched without being asked!

        NO honest product creator wants to be 'accused' of doing something unethical never mind illegal!

        And no WSO buyer wants to be worrying about whether their purchase is safe to use or not!

        I was concerned - that the nature of this thread seemed to be focused on the original developer. No concern was given to the honest product creator or much on the buyer.

        That is not what this forum is about. This forum brings together and harnesses the creativity and natural entrepreneurial spirit of everyone who engages.

        Without WSO creators, a great number of newbies would have to trawl the net and end up spending a great deal more on products and coaching than the WSOs that are offered.

        There are very few entrepreneurs who can make a business successful without automation of any kind. And many WSO's are about developing systems and strategies that improve your business efficacy and grow your income potential.

        And a great many products are based on what we have personally used and benefited from but believe we can enhance and /or improve upon - there will therefore be a great number of WSOs that are similar to those previously sold with newer and better features.

        Right now a lot of creators of upcoming WSOs are nervous and those who had great ideas in the planning stages are also concerned.

        What exactly is allowed on WSOs and what is not - I would really like a comprehensive explanation from an expert who does understand what is being discussed here and we'll make that the STICKY! I will be adding those FACTS to our Groups Permanent Files

        I await the kindness of the WF knowledgeable coders to please provide the clear and concise bullet pointed

        Because at this moment I understand that open source and gpl are okay so its just a case of making damn sure your coder isn't copying and pasting anyone else's code

        But you also better hope non of your competitors decide to say your product is a lot like theirs ...

        Thankyou in advance...
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

        First you would have to know which one of "These WSOs" it is.

        All this type of question will do is just start a bunch of issues. With conversations spiraling out of control and people blaming this person or that person.

        So your best bet is to do some investigation on your own, and decide for yourself if you should use it or not.

        Also just because it is stated that it can't be sold here. Doesn't mean it is illegal to sell whatever it was. It only means that it is not allowed as a WSO like Paul stated. Doesn't mean it can't be sold in the classified section, or on your own.

        So, like I said this will just start a huge debate With a lot of people jumping in that really don't have any knowledge of programming, open source, or the GPL license. So you will have those that know what their talking about, arguing with those that don't know what their talking about.

        Then the thread just turns to crap...
        Don, I'm one of the people you are talking about. I really don't have a clue when it comes to programming.

        As far as the thread "turning to crap" goes, I'm more confused then when I began reading this thread. My guess is that there are plenty of others ho feel the same way.

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Fuad Tolieb View Post

    So the lesson here is, if you are a source of shared downloads of general copyrighted material which you are a non-legit reseller of or no-interest "spreader", you will be the one who will risk a big claim against you..

    *This post is based on my own interpretation of copyrighted laws and regulations. I'm not a legal adviser who is trusted or certified by the relevant authorities. By that, this post is non-valid as a legal source and should not be taken into legal consideration*
    This is not true at all. Getty images for example will sue the person who downloads and uses their images. It is illegal to download and use copyrighted material, whether you distribute it or not.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Fuad Tolieb View Post

      copyright laws ONLY apply when the viewers/downloaders are made aware of the fact that the material is indeed copyrighted.
      This is not true.

      Btw, @sbucciarel I saw you are offering a service for WSO graphic designing. Also saw you used a few graphics that another warrior sold here on the WF. Did you get a re-sell license from that warrior to include those in your designs and service?
      This is a noxious allegation. What's next, Hey Suzanne, did you steal the computer you are using?

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        But you also better hope non of your competitors decide to say your product is a lot like theirs
        "A lot like" isn't generally a problem. Copied is. And we don't just nuke people - or offers - over unsupported allegations.

        If it involves code and there's a real question, Thomas will look at it. The rest of the mods don't know enough about coding to distinguish the stuff Don mentioned from actual problem copying.

        Sometimes there's no question about the source of the work. Programmers who swipe code and pass it off as their own are usually lazy and pay little attention to detail, so they tend to leave fingerprints from the original.

        The most common routine, when there are questions, is to lock the thread, usually with a note to the effect of "Closed while we check something out." If it turns out to be okay, we'll edit that to acknowledge that the question was satisfactorily answered, and bump the thread for the seller, to make up for the lost exposure.

        This all depends on the situation, but the point is that it's not a "Shoot first and ask no questions" process.


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        • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
          Okay, Paul

          I understand

          And I will post the comment in our JV group to assure others that this is the standard from now on

          I think the whole thread has shaken folks up a bit and I think it is very important for us to support our product developers, buyers and those whose work has been 'copied'

          My take away is - get a written agreement from a developer, check their work daily (and get a mate to look it over who does read code) and start learning some code myself - lol

          long terms, employ my own developer full time and give bonus for great original works!
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            I think the whole thread has shaken folks up a bit
            I hope so. It should.

            We've had to close or move too many offers lately. Blind ads, copyright issues, resale rights products being sold as originals, products cheaper elsewhere than here, and other stuff folks would know wasn't allowed if they'd just taken the time to read the rules.

            Not to mention the small group of sellers who think their $40 ad fee buys them protection from criticism, or a license to be jerks to the other members. I think I can safely speak for the other mods on that one when I say: "Hell, no."

            I hope it shakes a whole lot of people up, in a big way.


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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              no one is really considering the fact that you're opening the door wide to trolls and other vicious people to cause substantial monetary loss to someone who may be innocent by instantly locking the thread on ANY accusation.
              Please go back and re-read #117.

              You may also want to consider that the folks with access to moderate in the WSO section have all been at this long enough to have at least a little clue on these things. We are neither idiots nor reactionary tyrants. (Granted there are people who would disagree with that statement, but hey. Nobody's perfect. )

              As far as the forum being sued over copyright issues... There are specific legal systems in place for handling copyright claims. See the terms of service for DMCA notification procedures, which are basically what you just described.

              That said, there is no way to enforce the penalties for knowingly false DMCA filings by someone in, say, India or Brazil.

              We are not LEOs or judges. We're moderators. The worst thing we can do is shut down an ad. We aren't throwing people in prison, so we don't require proof beyond reasonable doubt. We can't levy financial judgements against sellers, so we don't really even need a preponderance of evidence.

              We're more along the lines of "No shirt, no shoes, no service."


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              • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                We're more along the lines of "No shirt, no shoes, no service."
                WTH!

                I specifically chose to do things online so I didn't have to wake up and put a shirt on or shoes! Now your forcing that on us to!
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                • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Don,

                  If it's encrypted, we're going to side with the other party if it looks too close. That's the seller's choice.


                  Paul
                  I would hope one could sell something encrypted - and if there is a question about it they could be offered a chance to submit an unencrypted version for review.

                  Originally Posted by Larkrise View Post

                  I know zilch about code Don and am like the vast majority on WF

                  I am happy to learn though, and very happy to learn how to scan code
                  I have not personally felt the need to try this - but can you cut and paste code into something like this - Plagiarism checker - Exactly and 100% Free - Free SEO tools - and will it work for code too?

                  Or do we need someone to create this tool for us that will compare code and reveal how unique something is with a percentage?
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                  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                    Originally Posted by Jill Carpenter View Post

                    I have not personally felt the need to try this - but can you cut and paste code into something like this - Plagiarism checker - Exactly and 100% Free - Free SEO tools - and will it work for code too?

                    No Jill... PHP is parsed then converted into opcodes which is then executed. You will never see the code readable on the web unless it is just for demonstration or examples. Where it is presented like:

                    PHP Code:
                    <?php
                    echo "hello world";
                    ?>
                    For people giving examples to help others, etc...

                    A plugin's source code (for example) would not be visible to search engines. Thus not indexed, and nothing to go by.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Don,
                      No Jill... PHP is parsed then converted into opcodes which is then executed.
                      [ahem] Not meanin' ta sass my elders here, but...

                      It would be relatively simple for a system of this type to download the zip/rar/tar/gzip files from various sources, unpack the code, and store it that way. For unencrypted and publicly available code, this isn't any harder than any other engine system. (Which is to say, it would take a lot of work and hardware, but nothing beyond the current technology.)

                      Speaking in the hypothetical, such a system could tell a searcher which of the various PHP, JS, etc, modules were in use in a given product, along with comparing any original code to other products in the archive.


                      Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Don,[ahem] Not meanin' ta sass my elders here, but...

                        It would be relatively simple for a system of this type to download the zip/rar/tar/gzip files from various sources, unpack the code, and store it that way. For unencrypted and publicly available code, this isn't any harder than any other engine system. (Which is to say, it would take a lot of work and hardware, but nothing beyond the current technology.)
                        That's an awful lot of downloading code from a lot of repositories though.

                        To say it is in the realm of possibility... yeah I agree, it's possible. Would anyone want to bother creating it? I doubt it...

                        I take that back... I would do it for enough money.

                        Not sure where the payoff would be, for the person putting the money up to have it created though.

                        I don't really see a lot of people investing a monthly fee into searching to see if what they purchased wasn't copied form somewhere (as far as a WordPress plugin or theme. Sure, I would like to know if my Mona Lisa was real). I could be wrong though... wouldn't be the first time.

                        I was assuming Jill meant just doing a search like copyscape for code, with something already out there. In which case, not many results would be returned. Not someone building a system that for example, downloaded every theme and plugin out there.

                        Then did comparisons...
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Don,

                          I didn't say it would be simple. Just possible. I can see it working as a crowd-sourced project, since a fair number of coders who give their products away freely would probably like to help people avoid unknowing copying.

                          Dog only knows who'd pay for the iron, though. There might be enough of a market among the people who hire coders and don't want to run afoul of the issues we're talking about. Not sure on that part, but the presence of "Guaranteed to pass Copyscape" in a lot of "writers'" ads provides a bit of hope for it.

                          There'd be a LOT of hours of work from skilled people required to make it happen, either way.


                          Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author Larkrise
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Don,

                            I didn't say it would be simple. Just possible. I can see it working as a crowd-sourced project, since a fair number of coders who give their products away freely would probably like to help people avoid unknowing copying.

                            Dog only knows who'd pay for the iron, though. There might be enough of a market among the people who hire coders and don't want to run afoul of the issues we're talking about. Not sure on that part, but the presence of "Guaranteed to pass Copyscape" in a lot of "writers'" ads provides a bit of hope for it.

                            There'd be a LOT of hours of work from skilled people required to make it happen, either way.


                            Paul
                            I'd say there is a market for people to pay a 'realistic fee' to have their code checked and passed as unique.

                            This would send a massive message to hackers/spammer/borrowers of others stuff without permission - you won't get paid!

                            And to buyers a massive reassurance - you are buying legal unique gloriousness!

                            I'd like to know more about how possible a service like this would be and to have an inkling of a clue what it takes to take apart something to check its source code and to know what your looking for?

                            Anyone? It's not the CIA is it? Just a few pointers would be helpful in this thread ...
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Don,
                    I specifically chose to do things online so I didn't have to wake up and put a shirt on or shoes! Now your forcing that on us to!
                    Why did that conjure the smartphone commercial with the German fellow saying, "These shorts... They are for a younger man, yes?"

                    Jill,
                    I would hope one could sell something encrypted - and if there is a question about it they could be offered a chance to submit an unencrypted version for review.
                    I mentioned the encryption because of a specific situation that came up a few months back. Someone reported a plugin as being copied, and the seller responded by saying, basically, "No, it is not. And how could you tell if it was, since it's encrypted?"

                    The response, again paraphrased: "You copied the interface exactly, including the same misspellings as the original."


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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Fuad Tolieb View Post

    Btw, @sbucciarel I saw you are offering a service for WSO graphic designing. Also saw you used a few graphics that another warrior sold here on the WF. Did you get a re-sell license from that warrior to include those in your designs and service?
    I most certainly DID. I buy developer's licenses for everything I use for clients.

    Receipt

    By the way, we aren't really discussing using images in themes. We are discussing people who have stolen/copied themes and plugins in their entirety and renamed them to sell themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Fuad Tolieb View Post

    Ah cool, got it, but it wasn't an assumption I made, it was just a question but I'm sorry if that made you a bit angry
    No problem then. I am a large consumer of the graphics packages that are sold on this forum as well as themes. I have more developer licenses for themes than I know what to do with. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author LisaAllen
    While I realize that none of us likes our content stolen (Pinterest Traffic Blueprint was on the Black Hat Forums within an hour of starting sales, so believe me I do know how that feels) no one is really considering the fact that you're opening the door wide to trolls and other vicious people to cause substantial monetary loss to someone who may be innocent by instantly locking the thread on ANY accusation.

    The way I see it there needs to be a balance that does require more than a "hey that's mine" on a thread to cause a sale in progress to halt. I also understand the WF does not want to be sued in the event of a valid claim, but we should not be so hasty to listen to whispers and innuendos without any backing.

    So I have a solution that I think the WF should seriously consider that would help the WF avoid 1. Being sued, and 2. Unfairly damaging sellers who are not guilty of anything but who could be seriously damaged by someone making random baseless accusations just for the fun of ruining someone's product launch.

    How about this?

    The WF requires anyone making such accusations to do the same thing that an ISP expects to take down content.. an official DMCA takedown notice. It would protect sellers from fake claims by

    1. Making the person who made the claim put their name and contact info to it so that if they are making a spurious claim, the seller can find them

    2. Provides legal evidence of the accusation that could be used to take such a party to court and prove damages in the event of fake claims.

    If you required just that one simple ordinary step, it would probably provide a lot of protection to sellers from the trolls. I doubt very much that most trolls would fill one out.

    And it also would not provide an undue obstacle to someone who's content/code really was stolen and used without authorization as those things can be filled out literally in minutes.

    I think many of us would feel a lot better knowing there was a valid process in place that provided protection to BOTH parties.
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  • Profile picture of the author Taneroxmn
    Banned
    Good grief. Already with the "out of channel" forum lawyering.

    Simplified explanation: If the license allows copying/modifying/renaming, the rule about resale rights products applies and you can't sell it as a WSO. Not a new rule.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by Taneroxmn View Post

      Good grief. Already with the "out of channel" forum lawyering.

      Simplified explanation: If the license allows copying/modifying/renaming, the rule about resale rights products applies and you can't sell it as a WSO. Not a new rule.
      [splorf!]

      It's 5:48 AM, and the smell of fresh irony wafts into the office...
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  • Profile picture of the author successmonster234
    Paul sorry for jumping on late, I have been researching an idea for a product I want to create/launch and having read this post (well done, very informative) I started to dig around in the WSO section.

    So that I am clear, is a WSO like this: http://www.warriorforum.com/complete...ducts-now.html

    Allowed to be sold as a WSO, if so fine but where are the boundaries?

    Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Rob,

      That is currently in the "Complete web sites for sale" section," so the complete prohibition on reselling doesn't apply.

      I've PM'd Suzanne about the licensing question. She's pretty careful about such things, so I expect she has obtained the proper licenses to sell those as add-ons to a site she creates for an individual customer.

      If I recall correctly, Woo Themes allows you to buy the license, create a site for a customer, and transfer the license to that customer along with the site. That's different from retailing the themes and add-ons separately.

      If I'm remembering incorrectly, someone will probably correct me.


      Paul
      Originally Posted by letsdothistogether View Post

      So that I am clear, is a WSO like this: http://www.warriorforum.com/complete...ducts-now.html

      Allowed to be sold as a WSO, if so fine but where are the boundaries?

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author successmonster234
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Rob,

        That is currently in the "Compelete web sites for sale" section," so the complete prohibition on reselling doesn't apply.

        I've PM'd Suzanne about the licensing question. She's pretty careful about such things, so I expect she has obtained the proper licenses to sell those as add-ons to a site she creates for an individual customer.

        If I recall correctly, Woo Themes allows you to buy the license, create a site for a customer, and transfer the license to that customer along with the site. That's different from retailing the themes and add-ons separately.

        If I'm remembering incorrectly, someone will probably correct me.


        Paul
        Thanks for the expert guidance Paul, yes reselling Woothemes is ok, I have had written confirmation in the past from one of their founders that this is allowed, they are fully under the GPL license.

        I am just getting into the forum and want to make sure I operate within all of its rules
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by letsdothistogether View Post

      Paul sorry for jumping on late, I have been researching an idea for a product I want to create/launch and having read this post (well done, very informative) I started to dig around in the WSO section.

      So that I am clear, is a WSO like this: http://www.warriorforum.com/complete...ducts-now.html

      Allowed to be sold as a WSO, if so fine but where are the boundaries?

      Rob
      Hi,

      I've provided Paul with my licensing screenshots for Woo. My offer is in Complete Sites for Sale, not in the WSO forum. In addition to offering themes and extensions that I have licenses for, I also completely install, set up and configure the sites for the customers, so I'm selling them a site that is ready to go.

      Regards
      Suzanne
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  • Profile picture of the author jalexanderseo
    How does this apply to child themes that are based on other themes. I have a child theme custom coded for the new default framework but the theme does use the parent theme from the twenty twelve default. The child theme is however unique.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      How does this apply to child themes that are based on other themes. I have a child theme custom coded for the new default framework but the theme does use the parent theme from the twenty twelve default. The child theme is however unique.
      That's fine. If it's original work, you're on solid ground with that sort of product.


      Paul
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