"Gurus" who tells you how to do things they have never done themselves, are you tired of it?

104 replies
Just read a post on a WSO of someone arguing and defending a WSO being reviewed is an "idea giver" and that is good enough.

Yes and No, because I've heard and experienced this same argument before.

People who tell AND SELL you how to do things they have NEVER done themselves will lead a novice to wasted years and money on top of frustration and questioning if they even belong or can succeed in the field their in.

Then of course there are those few among us who ALL they need is ideas to get going on financial independence, which is good, but really, who can do that consistently all the time? Most people in this category are already some measure of go getter or some measure of success in some other field and they simply was inspired to focus their talents on making themselves entrepreneurs vs using their talents to makes others rich..., or if they are/were getting good money for their talents, they just used the "idea" to get MORE money for their talents.

The 3rd scenario is that the guru who HAS DONE and SUCCEEDED in the things he/she is selling or telling others how to do, simply adds twist and ideas to something ALREADY accomplished and within the same success range. Usually, these type folks , for example, who actually made a set amount of money doing something will simply give different ideas on that SAME target goal, usually twist that make it easier, simpler or using extra resources to attain the SAME financial goal a little cleaner.

NOT some character who consistently makes , say, $5 a day doing something, then sells something, and "idea" that says if you do this, you can make $10,000 a day when the author has and never been anywhere close to this goal using this same method, on top of not having achieved that goal AT ALL.

As one gets more prudent at buying and implementing methods, hopefully, one can come to a realization as soon as possible and develop a nose for KNOWING those purveyors of product that actually do what they teach and tell others and works as prescribed.

I was on some forum, for example, on another subject I was eagerly researching and mastering to get a handle on, and this "guy" always comes up the stuff to sell, of which I have never bought, but, he had a product that seem to appear to possibly have tools that may help me toward my goal.

I literally hand my credit card in my lap, ready to buy.

But when I seen the answers to questions that were asked of him, I put my credit card away.

Then, when I asked questions, he basically is telling everyone that the answer is in their implementation, he just gives "ideas", there's that word again.

In fact, that was his SAME answer when asked for statistics and test data on his method.

DUDE DID NOT EVEN TEST IT, but was making claims.

He said it is up to the purchaser to validate, according to their personal use of it, of the benefit it would give because everyone is different.

After reading these posts, I KNEW FOR A CERTAINTY, there was nothing in there that could possibly be of any use to the direction I was heading, and the ONLY reason I knew that was because I had some level of familiarity with that subject.

Needless to say, after that, I never went to that forum again, the integrity bit, on top of that, most of the posters are of the same caliber, I only went there hoping one , two or more bonafide persons of that field would visit once in a while, which never happened.

Jesus, what would happen if I was a wide-eyed, eager to learn noob with no idea of the subject, thinking it could help me?

I would be a "wide-eyed, eager to BURN noob, thats what.

My WSO purchasers are pretty much down AND I find about , maybe, 3 or possibly 4 people of stuff I am interested in that ACTUALLY do what they sell and teach, because it works, exactly as they say, almost EVERYTHING I have bought from them, without question.

Just wished I developed a nose sooner. I would say I buy maybe 97% of their stuff and 3% or less of other stuff, that includes WSO's.

Aren't most of you tired of the "idea" seller and want the person who actually did and does what they sell with the real results of the seller or close to it?

By the way, these 3 or 4 people's stuff is so good, even the stuff that I would not use or am not interested in, it is top quality,no fluff stuff that is so good, I STILL WANT IT, just for my library or in case I decide to try it, or help someone else going in that direction.

What say you?



The 13th Warrior
#gurus #tells #things #tired
  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    Very true but the sad fact is, it's very profitable selling WSOs... That's why these guys do it.

    James Scholes
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    There are a few ways to look at this.

    First, I always tell newbies not to get into the "make money online" niche, but not for the reasons you think. Mainly, I tell them this because it is one of the hardest niches to tackle. Everybody in this niche is learning the tricks and techniques to mastering sales online. These tricks are not as effective when you are presenting them to people that are expecting them. It's like a magician performing in front of a room full of other magicians. They all know how and why you are doing what you are doing. There are much easier niches to tackle... for example: any other niche!

    However, if you do not heed that advice and are truly passionate about this niche, then who am I to say get out? In all fairness, a newbie can research what works and put together just as good as a tutorial as somebody that has been actually doing it for a while. Heck, we've all heard the phrase, "Some make better coaches than players."

    With that being said, there will be good products and there will be bad products. There will be theory and there will be case studies... but this goes for "how to get a million likes on FaceBook" just as much as it does "how to cure your acne".

    It is ALWAYS up to the consumer to do their own due diligence before buying a product. There are millions of bad products online, at WalMart, at flee markets, wherever. You didn't get this far in life by buying all the crap you see on infomercials, so why should online be different? Use your common sense here, just as you would in WalMart or when watching late night TV.

    PT Barnum said it best, "There is a sucker born every minute." Don't be a sucker. Only spend your money on quality. If you get duped, get a refund. If you buy exactly what was advertised and you think you were duped, that's your fault. Suck it up.
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    • Profile picture of the author ProScribe
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post


      However, if you do not heed that advice and are truly passionate about this niche, then who am I to say get out? In all fairness, a newbie can research what works and put together just as good as a tutorial as somebody that has been actually doing it for a while. Heck, we've all heard the phrase, "Some make better coaches than players."

      .
      I agree with pretty much everything Brian had to say in this response. But I think that he raises a really good point about he difference between coaches and players.

      Most of the principles of Internet Marketing really aren't all that complex, especially if you were comparing them to another subject like physics or medicine.

      So even someone reasonably new could probably gain a fairly comprehensive understanding provided they were willing to do the research.

      As most WSO's are aimed at beginner to intermediate IM'ers I think the key point is probably whether someone can explain and teach the material rather than their level of experience.

      After all your high school geography teacher probably hadn't been to all that many countries compared to some, and your mathematics teach was probably not the world greatest mathematician, But they knew how to teach the subject.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    If you cant make a $20.00 decision on what you want without feeling a ton of remorse should the product not meet all of your ideals, after having made an even halfway educated decision..., its questionable as to whether you are going to succeed any way.

    From the product creators view it just goes like this "You cant make everyone happy".

    Thats about as far as it goes... because its just true.

    As for non experienced people capitalizing on the ability to create products and sell them ... Well, I dont know what to say other than "What is not to be expected about that?"

    In the end , if you cant tell what you are reading when you look at ad copy, so long as its even HALFWAY representative of the product, chances are you dont have the mental facility to be an entrepreneur yet...particularly if risk, or lack of total black and white answers at all times are unacceptable to you.

    But I understand the need to rant and vent...have been there too.

    There's my two cents

    -JD
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  • Profile picture of the author Tony Dean
    You soon realise on this forum that some WSO's are just 'knock-offs' of someone else's best selling wso, everything under the sun has been copied and everything forever more will still be copied.
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  • I only EVER sell books on things I've done and made money with. And before I write the book I use some friends as guinea pigs first to make sure it can be replicated.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      PT Barnum said it best, "There is a sucker born every minute."
      The actual Barnum quote was, "There's a customer born every minute." Referring to customers as 'suckers' was, apparently, not consistent with Barnum's philosophy. The more common misquote was supposedly attributed to him by a competitor.

      More proof that you shouldn't believe everything you read, even when "it's well known that..."


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        The actual Barnum quote was, "There's a customer born every minute." Referring to customers as 'suckers' was, apparently, not consistent with Barnum's philosophy. The more common misquote was supposedly attributed to him by a competitor.

        More proof that you shouldn't believe everything you read, even when "it's well known that..."


        Paul
        There's an interesting Wiki entry about this: There's a sucker born every minute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Well they gotta know "something" if they're successfully selling their products online... and even with a WSO. So you gotta give them some credit there.
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  • If it is solid information I don't care if they haven't done it as long as the info is correct
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  • Profile picture of the author 8485marketing
    For some people the whole idea of internet marketing is solely just about making money and making money alone. That is the only benefit they take from working in this field and with recreated low end versions of higher grade products selling fairly well as WSOs and other methods.

    I dont know how many of us out there actually take a lot from genuinely helping other people get into this market and line of work in some cases but knowing that I get to help some people make a little extra income is about as motivating as it gets.

    Bottom line is, a good 95% of the information out there for sale is the same it just has a different cover or it was just written a little differently for the audience its presented too. They key in getting the information out there is how its being sold, and very often its sold on false pretenses like the reasons mentioned earlier on - methods they've not tried and tested themselves. I find it really annoying that people try to teach someone to do something they are not doing themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by 8485marketing View Post

      I find it really annoying that people try to teach someone to do something they are not doing themselves.
      Then I guess you believe every college in the world should be shut down and every football coach should hang up their cleats.
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      • If you're going to sell information, price it at what it's worth. If you're going to sell an "opportunity," make sure it has a reasonable hope of working.

        I believe that's where the line should be drawn.
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      • Profile picture of the author 8485marketing
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        Then I guess you believe every college in the world should be shut down and every football coach should hang up their cleats.
        What I mean is, if you do not and have not EVER done something in a particular way, why teach people to do that, why not teach them the way that you are successful with it, yes, introduce to other methods by all means, but clearly state that this is not how you operate yourself but do offer them your take it on it. Do not try and teach something you cannot yourself replicate or have had experience in doing so. Its morally wrong.

        We're not talking football coaches here though, we are talking IM. Fotball coaches are there to get the best out of you as a player, you as a player have the talent and you are given guidance on how to play the game. The coach has the ideas about what plays are going to work based on the evidence he has gathered about the other teams defense, what their strengths and weaknesses are and where his teams strengths can capitalise. If you are producing a product or providing a service, knowledge from talking about a subject will only go so far until you begin to show that you have not done it yourself, once people realise you are teaching something you do not do yourself or never have done, they will lose all faith in you.

        Maybe thats how you run your business but its not how i run mine.
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        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by 8485marketing View Post

          Maybe thats how you run your business but its not how i run mine.
          No need to get testy. What you have said is that it's not right if you don't do what you teach. I countered with a couple examples of respected people that don't do what they teach.

          Personally, I have been selling online for many years, but only recently started to teach my ways to others. In a past life, I was in the poker business. I created many products on poker theory and basic skills. Sure, I played poker, but I wasn't a known pro. Based on what you are posting, because I wasn't a world class poker player, I couldn't teach the theories and skills you need to become one. I take issue with that.

          If your thinking was that of most, then there would be no pundits, bookshelves at Barnes and Noble would be half empty, and college campuses would be filled with students only.

          Some people manufacture shovels, while others dig ditches for a living. That might not be the best analogy, but it's the best I could come up with on a Sunday afternoon when I should be playing with the kids, instead of debating on the Warrior Forum.

          Have a great day.
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      • Profile picture of the author Complex
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        • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
          I like people using this "theory" is good enough to teach without ever experiencing it.

          If that's the case, every scientist and would be backyard engineer can simply draw up plans on a "theory" of something working and sell it on Amazon or some corporation.

          ANY person of science KNOWS that any "theory" has to be proven to show it can work in the real world, because although a theory might be mathematically precise in varying models, once applied to the real world, fails.

          I also enjoy the due diligence argument. Funny how it goes only one way.

          Sure, you are responsible, but how many times you did all your research on something, for example, outside the IM niche, and still got scammed, with really no recourse either legally or otherwise.

          Due Diligence is all fine and dandy, and a "nice" patent answer and true statement, but that phrase would have much more weight if one could know HOW to get as close to finding out that this stuff, at least, was ACTUALLY done more than once, by the seller of such information.

          Entities with more resources than most of us even know exist, have done Due Diligence with their investments, but that did not help them from bankruptcy in this economy now did it?

          I defy you to find a teacher of surgery that has never done one incision. That's why we have laws of certification and other protocols before one can legally teach certain subjects.
          Because it could lead to certain danger and dire consequences.

          By best guess is, and I'm probably reaching here, is that those with this "theory" is ok to sell would not want to be cut on by someone who either only read a book or was taught by someone who never made one incision in his life..., well, maybe one..., on a dead frog when he was in high school.

          Not making light of due diligence or it's importance, but it can only go so far, because very few people can reverse engineer a model of success and point out it's reasons for success all the while doing a project on a much smaller scale with that theory and proving it can make money by actually making money. Few gurus can do that.

          Theories are almost on the same level as Science Fiction or other fantasies; but what separates science from wanton fantasies is tested, proven application in real world, real time environments multiple times with a measured, predictable result, then it becomes a tangible fact and an addition to the body of sciences, no longer "theory".


          The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
        Who cares if the person actually uses what they teach. I am only interested in if it begins to work for me with-in the refund period as most vendors will claim. I am better at some things then others, and they are better then me. If someone can teach me something that I am able to apply with success and they are not, due to whatever limitations they may have. That is all I care about.
        Their gig was selling me info. My gig is making what they sell me work. We enter this agreement when I hit the buy button.

        If they don't hold up their end I will not hold up mine, and get my money back. Keep in mind that when I enter the agreement. I have only maintenance of existing methods on my plate. If I have 62,000 WSO's on my computer and I bought 31,000 last week I am in no shape to lay any blame on any vendor. Good product or not. I am clearly not ready to give something a real no excuses go.

        I find that people who often bitch and moan about products, and all the ways they can be duped, Are the people who seem to have many comments in WSO threads and not in the forum itself. We are all responsible for our own success and failures. Even if that failure is paying for a junk product and never trying it to see what it actually was.

        Far too many buy, try(for 2 days) then complain. Sales copy is meant to sell you are meant to apply.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        Then I guess you believe every college in the world should be shut down and every football coach should hang up their cleats.
        I'm afraid your wrong, you couldn't be more wrong.

        As someone who as a 4 year college education and a
        Crap load of experience when it comes to teaching, I
        Can tell that I only chose to learn from people who
        Actually do/done what they're preaching.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Buyer Beware.

    Do your homework; don't chase the next shiny thing. Look up the posts of the people you're considering buying from, and make up your own mind about the quality of their information.

    And yes, if you're down to your last $20...you should probably go get a job. You probably should have done that months ago. Unless you really know in your bones that you have a skill and can find clients out of the blue--if you're struggling with what to do in the first place--it probably isn't going to work out in time for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author BinaryQwest
    Many times people want to be spoon fed methods that they simply don't know anything about. For instance telling someone how to market on Facebook when they have never had a Facebook account likely means they won't ever succeed at it. Do sellers "hype up" pitches? Of course, after all they are marketers trying to get the best conversion rate possible and make the most money. I do think that they should have done or are currently using the methods they sell but they don't always do that.
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  • Profile picture of the author wally247
    I'm tired of everything related to WSO's.


    These guys do something 2 times, write a WSO and sell it and all of their fanboys line up to say "Oh, Chris/Mark/John is the best and they always over-deliver and I love them and I worship them and they can do no wrong.


    It makes me sick. Like just because someone is a good guy that means their system isn't going to suck?


    It's like the entire IM "thing" is to kiss as much ass as possible and bow down to guys who create these lame "systems" that let's face it....are rarely half as good as they think they are.


    I rarely buy a WSO anymore unless I am looking to learn more about a subject (not to get rich tomorrow using it) and there are a few (VERY FEW) guys who deliver and aren't total douches, but mostly it's all hype and systems that suck.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by wally247 View Post



      These guys do something 2 times, write a WSO and sell it and all of their fanboys line up to say "Oh, Chris/Mark/John is the best and they always over-deliver and I love them and I worship them and they can do no wrong.


      It makes me sick. Like just because someone is a good guy that means their system isn't going to suck?



      That also burns my ***.

      "He's a good guy".

      "I go to church with him on Sunday, he's solid".

      "He saved me in Vietnam, so I know he is good".

      "I can vouch for him because he was nice to me in pm".

      "He refunded me right away, so he can't be that bad".

      "He picked up the phone on the first ring, he really cares".

      "He cried when I told him I lost my job, you can trust his stuff".



      Hey guys, how 'bout some information with teeth, huh, something that you can put your hand on?

      'So what' he saved you in Vietnam, that does not disqualify him from being a scammer , what gives here?

      These guys are in some ways doing us a favor, because we can immediately develop a blind spot for anything they say or post in the future when their "friend" and his product sucks dirt and is proven worthless, along with his useless "review".

      As far as due diligence, here is a clue:

      If you find a person whose products kick butt 99.99% of the time and work as described, WATCH who and how many people and/or products he recommends or vouch for.

      It will be very few, if any at all.

      Mostly resources the person uses to make things more efficient, easier and faster.

      Because people who use what they teach are usually very careful on who they associate with, because their integrity is just too important..., as important as putting out a product that works as advertised.


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    The world of knowledge would be very limited if every teacher
    taught only what he did.

    I have a friend who is a medical doctor helping drug addicts
    and one of his patients asked him if he ever used drugs.
    His answer was, No. The patient wanted to know how he
    could be helping people who were addicted if he never
    was himself.

    Maybe it's because he never messed with drugs is why
    he is sitting on that side of the table.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author 8485marketing
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      The world of knowledge would be very limited if every teacher
      taught only what he did.
      Only knowledge should be taught.
      Inspiration and ideas should be encouraged.

      At least that's my take on it.
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    • Profile picture of the author HN
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      The world of knowledge would be very limited if every teacher
      taught only what he did.

      I have friend who is a medical doctor helping drug addicts
      and one of his patients asked him if he ever used drugs.
      His answer was, No. The patient wanted to know how he
      could be helping people who were addicted if he never
      was himself.

      Maybe it's because he never messed with drugs is why
      he is sitting on that side of the table.

      -Ray Edwards
      This example lacks any logic.

      If WSO sellers = doctors, they'd be telling their 'patients' NOT to buy yet another WSO (=drug?) or they'll be poor. This is not that coaches teach. In your case a doctor doesn't obviously need the drug addiction experience to suggest a good thing to patient (stay away). Your example would translate to -- marketer telling a newbie not to buy WSO even if he never bought that crappy WSO himself.

      In your example the doctor taught exactly what he DID - he stayed away from drugs.

      Speaking of doctors... The doctors know what big pharma wants them to know and tell to their patients to sell more drugs. Most of the doctors probably have no freaking clue what's going on. And of course they think the only way to cure cancer is chemo or radiation.
      The doctors should undergo radiation themselves, survive for 5 years after that and only then recommend it to patient. Would that be wrong?

      Doctors = Why not put patients on $30,000 treatment even if they have no freaking clue how to cure the disease.
      Marketers = Why not sell customers a $10,000 course even if they have no freaking clue how to solve their problem.
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        People who tell AND SELL you how to do things they have NEVER done themselves will lead a novice to wasted years and money on top of frustration and questioning if they even belong or can succeed in the field their in.

        The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by HN View Post

        This example lacks any logic.

        If WSO sellers = doctors, they'd be telling their 'patients' NOT to buy yet another WSO (=drug?) or they'll be poor. This is not that coaches teach. In your case a doctor doesn't obviously need the drug addiction experience to suggest a good thing to patient (stay away). Your example would translate to -- marketer telling a newbie not to buy WSO even if he never bought that crappy WSO himself.

        In your example the doctor taught exactly what he DID - he stayed away from drugs.
        I think you are missing the part where the patient says that
        the doctor is not qualified to treat him because the doctor
        never had a drug abuse problem.

        The WSO is not the drug in this case. The drug would be
        bad advice that the WSO seller (expert) is correcting.

        Makes sense?

        -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author 8485marketing
    Sorry its late here and didnt mean for that to be the blunt statement i now read it to be. I meant if you have success with that in your own business, its your business afterall so run it as you see fit and if its successful then thats good.

    I mean, if i asked you straight up about one of your products you sell and you tell me you dont use and have never used any of these methods but will teach me how, how likely do you think i am going to be to buy from you? The facts are, people dont seem to grasp this and continue to spend their money on these things because they think it will be their break and they continue to fail, why? because they are being taught things by someone who has simply read about them and has no first hand experience with.

    Ive read about how operations are done, can i teach someone to do it if ive never picked up a scalpel?

    Lecturers and teachers have been taught how to deliver content, they are given core content, it is up to them to deliver that information in a way best collected by their audience. Someone could not teach chemistry or physics practicalities if they themselves had not done them, yeah theory can be shared, information can be shared, but it cannot be done so without conviction like it would someone who had experienced it first hand.

    I wish you continued success with your business ventures. Its late here, ive slept poorly the last few nights, maybe im overly irritable. Think i need a good rest before finding another healthy debate somewhere.

    Take it easy
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    "Nothing draws a crowd like a crowd."
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe Benjamin
    E. Brian Rose and 8485marketing *both* make
    great points.

    This topic is one of those *damned if you do...
    damned if you don't".

    John Durham said it best...

    "I understand the need to rant and vent...have
    been there too."

    There's a lot to be learned from someone who's
    observant...and someone who's experienced.

    For example...

    ...if someone witnessed someone getting getting
    hit by a car...do they themselves have to be hit
    by a car to talk about their experience observing
    the person being hit?

    Who would have the better perspective on what
    really happened?

    The guy getting hit...the guy who did the hitting
    ...or the guy who saw it all from the beginning?

    Sometimes...you get a more direct opinion from
    a third party than you will from those directly in-
    volved.

    If I go to the movies and...I think it sucks...and...
    everyone else thinks so too...as the film producer,
    are you going to call me crazy for not recognizing
    the master piece *you* think it is?

    Then there's the other side of the coin...

    ...those who TEACH what they do...and those who
    don't.

    It's a dangerous game to play because...

    ...information when used is powerful.

    It could be miles before you realized you made the
    wrong turn.

    You did everything by the book. In theory, it should
    work...but in reality it doesn't.

    There are two ways to handle this:

    #1. Retrace your steps. Turn around and go back
    to square one...learning from your mistakes.

    #2. Quit.

    MOST people choose option number #2 because...
    it's easier.

    They get upset at the person who gave bad advice
    instead or themselves for following it.

    ...but the *reality* is...

    it's called *life*.


    It's your responsibility to learn discernment. To learn
    how to smell B.S. and stay away from it...

    the irony in all this is...

    *everybody* goes through this phase before they
    learn how to discern good information from bad...

    it's *unavoidable* because as much as we strive
    to get it right *all the time*...hindsight is never
    20/20.

    In order to learn how to ride a bike...we had to fall
    and scrape our knees a few times.

    Learning how to walk? I gaurantee it wasn't as simple
    as standing up on our two legs.

    ...we crawled first.

    In essence, walking is just NOT falling.

    The problem is people want to RUN before they walk...
    and walk before they crawl.

    And if you THINK you're smarter than the person who
    had to walk before they could run...

    you WILL pay the price...literally...from people who
    are praying on those who want those *shortcuts* to
    success.

    You either learn from it and grow...or you don't.

    So, I guess it goes both ways.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    DUE DILIGENCE: Your responsibility!
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  • Profile picture of the author DaveWarrior
    I don't buy any WSOs, never have never will. I'm sure if an idea is really doing THAT well they won't be telling the world, especially not for $7 or whatever lame price they come up with.
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      Originally Posted by DaveWarrior View Post

      I don't buy any WSOs, never have never will. I'm sure if an idea is really doing THAT well they won't be telling the world, especially not for $7 or whatever lame price they come up with.
      Wrong you are.

      George Wright
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      "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by DaveWarrior View Post

        I don't buy any WSOs, never have never will. I'm sure if an idea is really doing THAT well they won't be telling the world, especially not for $7 or whatever lame price they come up with.
        Im sure if I was that good a guitar player at 43 I would be out there doing it on the road everyday...instead of teaching it... but the truth is, I have already been out there on the road and done it, and back again... and now I want to teach it.

        There comes a time when artists get tired of touring, and , for many, they want to sit in a studio and produce others...

        For that matter, if my phone techniques were so good, why teach them?

        Well, I have already made 100,000 phone calls and went door to door, and built businesses... and still do....however for the most part "I have already been where you are trying to go...", much like the artist who turns producer, Im "over it", and I enjoy teaching it now to people who are trying to go there..."

        For that matter, ( To respond to another poster here) why, if someone had a successful offline business, would they be selling a course on how to build email lists?

        Because everything you "know" is an asset.

        Your email list is an asset, your offline business is an asset, and your KNOWLEDGE of how to build email lists and offline businesses is an asset, and they all produce money , and we should have no inhibitions about allowing ALL of our talents , experience, and knowledge to serve us.

        They say there arent any dumb questions but "Why would a person sell their knowledge and experience, just because there was a demand for it...?" is a dumb question.

        Goes along with Paul Myers quote above. Dont believe things just because "It's common knowledge that...",
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by DaveWarrior View Post

      I don't buy any WSOs, never have never will. I'm sure if an idea is really doing THAT well they won't be telling the world, especially not for $7 or whatever lame price they come up with.
      That a boy, way to teach them a lesson... But let me ask you, tomorrow you may or may not have your ridiculously low $7. You may spend it on something that will really benefit, like ice cream or a pizza.

      But what you are in fact missing out on is a chance at some knowledge you may not have had before. This knowledge could well in fact make you $7 over and over again but you'll never know.

      As for thinking people don't sell their best stuff for cheap is, well, uninformed. It's part of their business model and it's marketing. They want to give you a taste of their best stuff so that you'll become a customer for life. Selling you a $7 product will turn into $147 (or whatever) down the road and that my friend is profitable.

      But hey go enjoy your ice cream or pizza and then go back to working for the man complaining about how much you hate your job, hate others on the Warrior Forum who are making money and you just can't seem to figure it out.

      This is basic marketing and it's painfully obvious you have never bought a WSO or any product about marketing for that matter.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

        That a boy, way to teach them a lesson... But let me ask you, tomorrow you may or may not have your ridiculously low $7. You may spend it on something that will really benefit, like ice cream or a pizza.
        But what if I want to buy a pizza AND a $7 WSO?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          But what if I want to buy a pizza AND a $7 WSO?

          LOL... see if the pizza delivery guy can go splits with ya...
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        • Profile picture of the author George Wright
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          But what if I want to buy a pizza AND a $7 WSO?
          You just gave me a great idea! Run a $7 WSO with a pizza as a bonus and a litre of Coke as a OTO.

          GEORGE WRIGHT
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          "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

            You just gave me a great idea! Run a $7 WSO with a pizza as a bonus and a litre of Coke as a OTO.

            GEORGE WRIGHT
            Don't forget extra cheese for an upsell.
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              What about SEO? If I give a step by step lesson on what I did, including the exact keyword(s) I used, it isn't the same for each person that may follow.

              For one thing, a person will now have to compete with me. I didn't have to do this. Also, since I've now released this guide, there will be multiple people following the same step by step program. Now we have dozens or even hundreds of people now competing for the same keywords using the same system.
              For all you "system buyers" out there, who demand exact, paint-by-numbers, step-by-step plans, these two paragraphs may be the most important ones you will read as far as their effect on your bank book.

              Look at "bum marketing", for example. When Travis Sago published his method, it worked like gangbusters because almost no one was doing it that way. 'Easy' keywords were plentiful, and article directories enjoyed mucho respect from search engines due to reasonably large collections of decent quality content.

              Once the 'system' was popularized and thousands of people were using it, doing the same thing with results from the same tools, the whole thing imploded. The directories lost their authority, potential customers became jaded, and the method lost favor.

              Ditto 'autoblogging', which turned into a tool-oriented replacement for the old MFA sites.

              Or consider SEO. How many people invested hundreds or thousands of dollars - or worse, hours of their lives - building thousands of backlinks that Google wiped out with the click of a mouse somewhere deep in the Googleplex?

              Originally Posted by jgeeked View Post

              "Those who can, do; those who can't teach"
              And those who can do neither become critics...

              (At least, that's what my late grandfather (a career professional chef) used to say about food critics.)
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              • Profile picture of the author Walter Parrish
                I will say this much lol
                You could give away everything for 5 to 10 bucks and the truth is probably only 1 to 5 percent are going to actually do anything with it.
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                • Profile picture of the author John Durham
                  Originally Posted by Walter Parrish View Post

                  I will say this much lol
                  You could give away everything for 5 to 10 bucks and the truth is probably only 1 to 5 percent are going to actually do anything with it.
                  Grass is green , and the sky is blue... and only 1-5% of the people you try to help actually take the journey to success... Yup, everything is normal.
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      • Profile picture of the author fedor50
        Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

        That a boy, way to teach them a lesson... But let me ask you, tomorrow you may or may not have your ridiculously low $7. You may spend it on something that will really benefit, like ice cream or a pizza.

        But what you are in fact missing out on is a chance at some knowledge you may not have had before. This knowledge could well in fact make you $7 over and over again but you'll never know.

        As for thinking people don't sell their best stuff for cheap is, well, uninformed. It's part of their business model and it's marketing. They want to give you a taste of their best stuff so that you'll become a customer for life. Selling you a $7 product will turn into $147 (or whatever) down the road and that my friend is profitable.

        But hey go enjoy your ice cream or pizza and then go back to working for the man complaining about how much you hate your job, hate others on the Warrior Forum who are making money and you just can't seem to figure it out.

        This is basic marketing and it's painfully obvious you have never bought a WSO or any product about marketing for that matter.
        Wow. This post is just so accurate. It's a fact that the easiest customers to sell to, is a person who bought something from you before
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  • Profile picture of the author Danny Shaw
    This is a very interesting thread to me as I have just finnished my first eBook in the IM niche but am very wary about building a sales funnel and releasing the product.

    My book is far better than 90% of wso I have read and I have used the advice with great success but I dont want to fail so I am going to use the tatics on another niche and record each step.......Better to be safe than sorry!

    It is a shame because I bet their are quite a few people out there that have amazing ideas and advice to share but do not want to get blasted by the "guru's"?
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  • Profile picture of the author princecapri
    There are 3 kind of gurus/coaches/mentors:

    The first kind have done what they teach. They have made millions every year and want to teach you to do the same (the problem is - buyers like you want that information for $9 a pop in the sideshop called WSO forum). It ain't gonna happen. You are basically looking for someone to give you their money making method within an unsaturated market for pittance. If you are willing to work out $5K a month, I can tell you that you WILL be rich. But are you willing?

    The second kind, which is more common, but less appreciated - are the people who can help you to improve your business. The problem is, since these people don't have a set business themselves, they are not 'trustworthy'. But truth of the matter is, they might earn FAR less than you do - but probably know more about your business than you do. Its just that they are not implementors, they are not action takers, they are strategists, and motivators (think of football coaches...some of the best players make for some of the worst coaches)

    So really, before you buy something - know what you are looking for.

    If you want a TRUE money making method, it would be expensive and you will have to put the work in.
    But if you want to improve your business, you don't need a guru that has done the same thing as you (if you want, start paying $100K). Instead, you want some strategist who can take your business upto next level..

    Know what you want.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by princecapri View Post


      If you are willing to work out $5K a month, I can tell you that you WILL be rich. But are you willing?


      Originally Posted by princecapri View Post


      If you want a TRUE money making method, it would be expensive and you will have to put the work in.
      But if you want to improve your business, you don't need a guru that has done the same thing as you (if you want, start paying $100K). Instead, you want some strategist who can take your business upto next level..

      Know what you want.



      That may be true for some, but not all.

      I know of one guy for a fact who practices what he preaches, makes millions of dollars and charged for his products anywhere from $10 to $250 and higher.

      Gary Halbert had product price ranges for everyone.

      They already know the market , already make millions and what they teach cannot threaten their income because for one, the principles they teach of their methods or so applicable in so many different markets and niches, they could not get all the money that is there, even if they tried.

      Even their old principles, most are still as potent as ever.

      To me , lasting principles is a clue to someone teaching what they actually do.

      Almost most times, a purchaser cannot threaten or saturate the product producers income because they do not teach "fly by night" methods, "gimmicks" and "one-trick ponies" but usually lasting principles applicable to all markets and new, emerging markets and niches.

      And their cheap products are as result oriented as their $1000 products; the difference is the higher priced product is faster, first dibs in an emerging opportunity, etc.,.

      The guys who usually sell "only" $10000's type products and their cheap products are not equal in effectiveness, I would be wary of those kinda fellas.

      That is usually one red flag, to me.

      One guy found out that this group he was traveling with ,after listening and conversing with them, found out they NEVER did any of the stuff they were charging thousands at seminars teaching others, and some did one thing right, years and years ago, made some money, and wrote books, tapes , videos, etc., off that one thing...., most of their money was really made telling of that one thing a thousand different ways.

      He then got out of the guru business and teach on his own without mentioning very few people he would call by name, integrity is far more important to this fella then putting his name or reputation on the line for some Jack-legged marketer/guru that he personally did not verify, income wise, that it worked as they say.



      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author princecapri
        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        That may be true for some, but not all.

        I know of one guy for a fact who practices what he preaches, makes millions of dollars and charged for his products anywhere from $10 to $250 and higher.
        I can sell you something for $1, and I can sell you something for $10,000. I might not be a millionaire - but trust me when I say - the value I give from these products will be directly proportional to the price.

        However, the value you get might vary on how you see these price points, and how hardworking you are.

        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        They already know the market , already make millions and what they teach cannot threaten their income because for one, the principles they teach of their methods or so applicable in so many different markets and niches, they could not get all the money that is there, even if they tried.
        So why should they teach if they are making millions doing other things?

        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        Almost most times, a purchaser cannot threaten or saturate the product producers income because they do not teach "fly by night" methods, "gimmicks" and "one-trick ponies" but usually lasting principles applicable to all markets and new, emerging markets and niches.
        I raise that point again - I cannot sell you fly-by-night products, but that is what this market demands. So while I can understand that you blame the gurus, the buyers are to blame as well. I sold 140 copies of my last product, and as a bonus training, offered 2 webinars. Do you know how many turned up? 16 in the first and 8 in the second!

        Crappy numbers...but I didn't sugarcoat anything. I told them they would have to work hard - and thus the response. Perhaps I should re-evaluate my marketing and tell people that I can make them a millionaire after one webinar.

        [quote=The 13th Warrior;6785778]And their cheap products are as result oriented as their $1000 products; the difference is the higher priced product is faster, first dibs in an emerging opportunity, etc.,.[QUOTE]

        So not true - and this is a big misconception! Cheap does not mean slower. Expensive does not mean better. Look at what it means to you. If you are an adsense marketer, a $10,000 course on Facebook would be pointless to you. But a $1 course on Adsense might double your income. Business works on relative perception.

        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        The guys who usually sell "only" $10000's type products and their cheap products are not equal in effectiveness, I would be wary of those kinda fellas.

        That is usually one red flag, to me.

        One guy found out that this group he was traveling with ,after listening and conversing with them, found out they NEVER did any of the stuff they were charging thousands at seminars teaching others, and some did one thing right, years and years ago, made some money, and wrote books, tapes , videos, etc., off that one thing...., most of their money was really made telling of that one thing a thousand different ways.

        He then got out of the guru business and teach on his own without mentioning very few people he would call by name, integrity is far more important to this fella then putting his name or reputation on the line for some Jack-legged marketer/guru that he personally did not verify, income wise, that it worked as they say.

        The 13th Warrior
        Agreed.
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  • Profile picture of the author gcbmark20
    I have purchased products from many online marketers who have provided lots of PROOF to back up what their claims were.

    Only to be sold on the product idea and then making a decision on whether to buy or not.

    Then after taking action on that products information, finding there were HUGE Gaps that needed to be filled.

    This means that even if you know someone is making money online regularly, it doesn't mean that they are going to be a great mentor for anyone whom is looking to better themselves.

    If you have even had the smallest of successes SHARE THEM as they are living proof that something can be achieved.

    Also, the individual who buys that product has to take some responsibilty and put in some consistent and hard efforts into making things work beforte making a decision on whether a particular product was good or not.

    This debate could go forever but I know that there are some fantastic products out there and once you have been around the block a few times, you know how to sniff out the great products from the not so great ones.

    All the best everyone and have a great day!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by gcbmark20 View Post


      Then after taking action on that products information, finding there were HUGE Gaps that needed to be filled.

      Granted, there are people who are good or great at what they do but are bad teachers.

      That's not debatable and that does not deter from someone teaching something they have never done themselves.

      Sure, Micheal Jordan was a great basketball player, but even I know he would probably not be able to teach people how he do what he did, if he even knows himself. Because how can you or do you know the difference between natural ability, developed natural ability or ability by simply doing something unique in addition to good ole fashioned hard work?

      I doubt he would know.

      "If " I were to listen to Micheal Jordan, I would know to listen to him anecdotally.

      Like people who buy Micheal Jordan shoes that some way, some of the magic will rub off in their game.

      And even him, Micheal, a bad teacher, I would at least KNOW he practiced what he preached in relation to certain training he did to be game ready and imparts to others, if he had a camp or seminar.

      So no, the debate does not have to go on forever, even as a lousy teacher, teach what you actually do, but the question is, how do you know or get the closest answer to finding out if product seller practices and get results they claim of what they teach?


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    In one of my recent WSOs I included a list of 4000 suggestions for "how to" videos and articles.

    Should I have actually tried to create and market a product for each of the 4000 suggestions? Or is just giving 4000 ideas the entire point?

    What about SEO? If I give a step by step lesson on what I did, including the exact keyword(s) I used, it isn't the same for each person that may follow.

    For one thing, a person will now have to compete with me. I didn't have to do this. Also, since I've now released this guide, there will be multiple people following the same step by step program. Now we have dozens or even hundreds of people now competing for the same keywords using the same system.

    Plus, SE algos change. I also believe that Google doesn't use the exact same ranking factors for every keyword. And that Google probably also uses different ranking criteria for sites for the same keyword.

    Google claims to have over 200 on page factors they consider, yet few SEO guides list more than 10 or so on page factors. On the other hand, Google probably also uses an "over optimization penalty".

    Because of this, IMO my best advice it to be aware of as many possible strategies and techniques for SEO as possible. Then, mix them up, picking and choosing from various techniques.

    I don't believe there's one single "best step by step" method for SEO and IMO, the best strategy is to be aware of as many strategies as possible.

    Add to this the fact that what Google does today it may not do tomorrow, and it's very likely that giving people SEO "ideas" is much better for their long term success than a simple step by step plan that worked yesterday for me, but may not tomorrow.

    The reality is, the people that are the most successful with IM take something, combine it with something else, and then add their own ideas and creations to the mix. They don't rely on simply being followers and test new ideas of their own and others.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Root
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      In one of my recent WSOs I included a list of 4000 suggestions for "how to" videos and articles.

      Should I have actually tried to create and market a product for each of the 4000 suggestions? Or is just giving 4000 ideas the entire point?
      The key here is that you CLEARLY provided a suggestion. OP is talking about people who sell stuff as a fact that they haven't tried themselves.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Stephen Root View Post

        The key here is that you CLEARLY provided a suggestion. OP is talking about people who sell stuff as a fact that they haven't tried themselves.
        After re-reading the OP, you are probably correct that this point was made, although somewhat burried in the post.

        And, my post isn't only a response to the OP's, but to some others on the thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      In one of my recent WSOs I included a list of 4000 suggestions for "how to" videos and articles.

      Should I have actually tried to create and market a product for each of the 4000 suggestions? Or is just giving 4000 ideas the entire point?

      What about SEO? If I give a step by step lesson on what I did, including the exact keyword(s) I used, it isn't the same for each person that may follow.

      For one thing, a person will now have to compete with me. I didn't have to do this. Also, since I've now released this guide, there will be multiple people following the same step by step program. Now we have dozens or even hundreds of people now competing for the same keywords using the same system.

      Plus, SE algos change. I also believe that Google doesn't use the exact same ranking factors for every keyword. And that Google probably also uses different ranking criteria for sites for the same keyword.

      Google claims to have over 200 on page factors they consider, yet few SEO guides list more than 10 or so on page factors. On the other hand, Google probably also uses an "over optimization penalty".

      Because of this, IMO my best advice it to be aware of as many possible strategies and techniques for SEO as possible. Then, mix them up, picking and choosing from various techniques.

      I don't believe there's one single "best step by step" method for SEO and IMO, the best strategy is to be aware of as many strategies as possible.

      Add to this the fact that what Google does today it may not do tomorrow, and it's very likely that giving people SEO "ideas" is much better for their long term success than a simple step by step plan that worked yesterday for me, but may not tomorrow.

      The reality is, the people that are the most successful with IM take something, combine it with something else, and then add their own ideas and creations to the mix. They don't rely on simply being followers and test new ideas of their own and others.
      ^ Gold Nuggets ^

      Jeffery 100% :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
        A theory was the earth was flat and that the earth was center of the universe.
        Not a theory - a hypothesis.

        Another theory was if you drowned a woman being accused of being a witch, if you drowned her and she did not die, she was a witch and you killed her anyway, but if you drowned her and she drowned and died, she was innocent.
        Again - hypothesis, not theory.

        That aside, I think the real question here is not necessarily has the seller done what he says his plan will do, but could the seller do what he says his plan will do.

        We all know that Allen Says can look at a strategy and probably know whether it has a chance of working - he's made BILLIONS at this - it's what he does.

        I, on the other hand, might be able to look at (or imagine) a plan and guess at whether it will work or not, but I would never try to market the plan until I tested it myself, and on all the friends and relatives I could before I would want to stake my reputation on it. I'm not that experienced.

        I think lots of folks come here without a clue about IM, but they find out that WSO's are a 'gold mine', they go out and read a couple eBooks, etc. They gain a 'cliff notes' understanding about IM or some part of it, then whip up a "I made $20K in one week" WSO.

        These guys are usually just following the first advice they hear - "Create a WSO - Make Big Money".
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    We probably wouldn't know half of what we do know if it weren't for this group of people who are nothing more than information forwarders. They learn stuff and they teach it to others. They never implement it. But if these people did not exist then information wouldn't spread as much as it does and we wouldn't be privy to a lot of the information we now have at hand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Philosophical question for you:

    You're here warning others about those who teach things they've never done. What proof do you have, from your personal experience, that your post is correct? Where are your testimonials? Where are your screenshots?

    You have no proof that what you're warning about doesn't work. It's your opinion only. You can't say, with a broad stroke, that ideas are all bad if they have not been tested thoroughly.

    For example, there is an idea book by Allen Says, the owner of this forum. It's full of ideas that I'm fairly certain he didn't try ahead of time. There is one chapter about not waiting to sell your ebook until it's finished but to sell it a chapter at a time - like on a monthly basis. At the end of a year your book is finished and you can sell it as a whole but in the meantime you have 12 months of income and a loyal fan base.

    He talks about how you can start this business in 3 days. Now maybe he did this one but there are plenty of other ideas I don't think he did. This idea, whether he actually did it or not, was the first time most IMers were exposed to the thought and the Fixed Term Membership business model was born.

    I think that was a valuable idea to a great many people whether or not Allen ever did it himself.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Originally Posted by Danny Shaw View Post

    This is a very interesting thread to me as I have just finnished my first eBook in the IM niche but am very wary about building a sales funnel and releasing the product.

    My book is far better than 90% of wso I have read and I have used the advice with great success but I dont want to fail so I am going to use the tatics on another niche and record each step.......Better to be safe than sorry!

    It is a shame because I bet their are quite a few people out there that have amazing ideas and advice to share but do not want to get blasted by the "guru's"?
    Hi Danny,

    It's not the "Gurus" who will blast you. It's the haters who for whatever reason are out to spoil your efforts. Some are self appointed protectors of the "poor dumb" newbie (Sarcastic statement meant to express how they seem to view anyone new to IM) Some are jealous of you because you were able to make a product and some are just natural born spoilers, that's how they roll. I'm sure there are more reasons why haters hate.

    You just come up with best darn product possible, find a few people who connect with your style of teaching, use well meant criticism to improve you and your products. And ignore those who "blast" you, they won't be "Gurus."
    Signature
    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    If that's the case, every scientist and would be backyard engineer can simply draw up plans on a "theory" of something working and sell it on Amazon or some corporation.
    You are assuming everybody wants to make money by selling what they know. Faulty assumption. But that's not the main problem with that statement.

    Scientists and engineers have working knowledge and understand the guiding principles of their vocation. For example, a scientist doesn't have to prove gravity every time they come up with a theory.

    ANY person of science KNOWS that any "theory" has to be proven to show it can work in the real world, because although a theory might be mathematically precise in varying models, once applied to the real world, fails
    ANY person of science knows that you are NOT using the scientific definition of theory. You are using the layperson's definition of theory and trying to apply it to scientific theory. Common mistake.

    Anyway, as to your original post...There are areas where a person does not have to have personal experience before teaching others. The focus of this thread has been on what to do, but not much has been said on what not to do.

    You could easily teach people what not to do, without having had to have personal experience with it. For example, I could write a product on why it's a bad idea to personally insult the memebrs on your list, but that doesn't mean I would have had to have insulted my list at some point.

    Let me put it another way:

    1. You can learn from your own mistakes.
    2. You can learn from someone else's mistakes.
    3. You can learn from your own successes.
    4. You can learn from someone else's successes.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author kencalhn
      great thread, good food for thought...

      - agree w/Michael re you can at least make a "lessons learned"/mistakes to avoid type product without being an expert and doing it right, since there's a lot of lessons learned value in what not to do...

      - I really like that phrase from Will re "information forwarders"; that is what a lot of people do, which doesn't add as much value as learning from the original source

      - what bugs me is people who for example try and copy me in my niche (trading); many of my competitors don't even trade (I do), and then copy my ideas and content from my industry articles and courses, to try and emulate what a real person who really "does it" can do... they're "posers" and marketers who are a blight in my industry, overcharging for theoretical stuff that doesn't actually work.

      - and same with IM; sure sell a "mistakes to avoid" (eg on youtube, or with listbuilding) if that's your experience level, but don't go selling a "how to make $50,000 a month" course if you haven't actually done that.

      - the market rewards authenticity and relevance. (that's the most important point). my competitors dry up and disappear because they're not relevant nor authentic, and customers can tell the difference, over time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      The single most common reason why most people do not take the necessary action to get them where they want to be is because...

      ...their backs aren't far enough up against the wall. Yet.

      They think they know what they need. They think they know what they want. They like the idea, the dream of becoming something they are not but...

      ...they're not ready (yet) to really unplug themselves of that which is ultimately still holding them back, anchored to a lifestyle they're still comfortable with.

      Hence why, even with the best information in the world to hand, they still won't commit themselves to taking the next logical step. A step which will undoubtedly take them out of their comfort zone.

      It's not that a lot of the advice doesn't work. It doesn't matter who presents the information. Or whatever label (for example 'guru') you want to attach to them or their product/s. They're just doing what they do. Like it or lump it. It's not the sellers responsibility to prescribe an action plan which upon feeding into the mind the buyer does nothing with.

      Disclaimer...

      All the material contained in this book is provided for educational and informational purposes only. No responsibility can be taken for any results or outcomes resulting from the use of this material.

      While every attempt has been made to provide information that is both accurate and effective, the author does not assume any responsibility for the accuracy or use/misuse of this information.


      In other words, buyer beware. It's your responsibility to determine what you do with the information. You own your own mind. You interpret information differently to everyone else. You will ask questions completely unique to yourself on reading through to completion the information given to you. What you do with this information through either action or lack of it, is not and cannot be the responsibility of the seller (or 'guru') providing you with this information in the first place.

      If you get focused on what your precise needs are in the moment, you'll know in advance exactly what it is you're searching for.

      If you're not focused or know not how to ask of yourself the right questions to move you from where you are now towards your intended financial goal chances are... you'll buy a product, or two, or three or more and...

      ...still remain as unfocused as ever bleating afterwards something, anything didn't work for you when in actual fact... the responsibility for thinking and feeling how you do is completely up to you. And you alone.

      How far is your back up against the wall? The further it's there (up against the wall) the more likely you'll truly concentrate on exactly what it is you need rather than flitting from one shiny object to the next.


      Mark Andrews
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


      You are assuming everybody wants to make money by selling what they know. Faulty assumption. But that's not the main problem with that statement.

      Scientists and engineers have working knowledge and understand the guiding principles of their vocation. For example, a scientist doesn't have to prove gravity every time they come up with a theory.

      ANY person of science knows that you are NOT using the scientific definition of theory. You are using the layperson's definition of theory and trying to apply it to scientific theory. Common mistake.

      Anyway, as to your original post...There are areas where a person does not have to have personal experience before teaching others. The focus of this thread has been on what to do, but not much has been said on what not to do.

      You could easily teach people what not to do, without having had to have personal experience with it. For example, I could write a product on why it's a bad idea to personally insult the memebrs on your list, but that doesn't mean I would have had to have insulted my list at some point.

      Let me put it another way:

      1. You can learn from your own mistakes.
      2. You can learn from someone else's mistakes.
      3. You can learn from your own successes.
      4. You can learn from someone else's successes.

      All the best,
      Michael



      You are going to argue semantics on science? C'mon , really.

      A scientist has a theory on how something works but never tests it under differentiating working models?

      A lot of people have ideas, some good, some dumb, but even an idea needs testing and some amount of verification, hard stats.

      A theory was the earth was flat and that the earth was center of the universe.

      Another theory was if you drowned a woman being accused of being a witch, if you drowned her and she did not die, she was a witch and you killed her anyway, but if you drowned her and she drowned and died, she was innocent.

      C'mon , everyone knows what I am talking about here, jesus christ.

      And on the point of passing on information you have not done yourself, look: A microscope and it's use is standard technology and works in the real world. If I never touched or operated a microscope, the basic knowledge or general use of it still applies.

      But wait, you are comparing that to someone who either has no idea of the subject he teaches or passes on information from very bad or dangerous sources, financially dangerous and otherwise, in either case never doing it; like if I have no idea or never done any work to put a link or website and make it #1 on Google, never done it and in addition passing on information or selling it from sources that have long since passed that will not work or get you even near page one of Google , let alone the top spot, how is that kosher?

      Again, people are splitting hairs and getting their own personal issues involved.

      People who actually done something and got results on something CAN add better ways and improve on something that they themselves have already done in general.

      Especially if a person has a track record of actually doing and being successful at the very information they are selling or imparting to others.

      It's like a person who already built a car, saying you can paint it blue instead of black as he done, or put 13" rims instead of the 15" inches as he done, or add hydraulics instead of racing suspension as he done, on and on.

      If you people can honestly tell me that you will buy stuff from someone YOU KNOW for certain has NEVER implemented anything, tested anything or has a verifiable result of anything they are selling and it's not plr , articles or content filler, then hey, if you are being honest, then you got it.


      The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Metro123
    Quite a few of the products I've purchased were good. A lot were bad and I just asked for a refund. That simple. I've realized that I have to know what kind of site I'm building, and then look for something that meets my needs. That took me some time to figure out.

    Overall, the programs that have had coaches, have worked best for me. And keeping focused on my goal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Just had a thought:

    "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie is LOADED with stories of other people's success. He didn't do what these people did.

    HOWEVER...

    He already had a "success plan" in place and then found other successes who could illustrate the points he ws trying to make. Still, I am sure there were things he recommended based on what other people did, and not on what he himself did.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      I have no problem buying a WSO from someone who didn't actually do what they teach, as long as the information is accurate.The problem is that, when you aren't experienced, you can make mistakes without knowing it. So you end up teaching something that simply isn't true.
      Signature
      One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

      Terence Fletcher: "There are no two words in the English language more harmful than Good Job." Whiplash.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelNech
    Obviously it's wrong selling ebooks on how to perform a certain method if you haven't even tried it yourself.

    On the other hand you have to realize that even if you only get one small gem out of a particular wso, that can have a big impact on your business.

    For example, let's say you buy a wso on list building and most of the information isn't new to you, but you do get one, just one piece of information that will help you increase your open rates by 5%. Well, if you have a bigger list, that 5% increase alone will mean a lot in terms of sales, thus making this wso a winner in my book.

    So if you're an avid wso purchaser, this is my advice: try and find that one piece of missing detail and add it to your overall arsenal.

    Mike.
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  • Profile picture of the author ambrown31
    It's just like most get rich sites, only the person that made it and the top 1% will make enough to retire. Better to have a quality product that people love & will keep coming back for.
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  • I really hate it when people are selling a method or an idea that they have not actually done themeselves. I feel its a bit of a cop out.

    I always make sure I am selling something that I have tried and tested before. That way I can offer advice and support as I have already done it and made it work

    Just my 2c
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  • Profile picture of the author Elvis Michael
    My problem with many WSOs (not all) is how people claim to have had success with their product, speaking in first person, etc-- "I make $20k every month; Learn how i made 15k in 2 weeks..."

    Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with buying an idea; In fact, i welcome them because they open my eyes to new strategies or things to look into. The main issue is that no one dares to put up a disclaimer in their sales page stating something like, "This method has not been thoroughly tested and it's for informational purposes only." If people were more honest in their sales page, their reputation would (theoretically) skyrocket over time.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    One final note on this topic and then I will fade off into the background...

    In 2003, I was approached by somebody at a poker conference. He said he has been following my progress and was surprised that I wasn't collecting email addresses on my sites. I asked him if he was collecting email addresses. He said no, because he wasn't in the business of building websites. He was in the business of consulting people that made websites.

    We had a brief talk about the uses of the addresses. I implemented that night and my life changed forever.

    Good thing I didn't blow this guy off, just because he didn't "do" what he teaches.
    Signature

    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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    • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      One final note on this topic and then I will fade off into the background...

      In 2003, I was approached by somebody at a poker conference. He said he has been following my progress and was surprised that I wasn't collecting email addresses on my sites. I asked him if he was collecting email addresses. He said no, because he wasn't in the business of building websites. He was in the business of consulting people that made websites.

      We had a brief talk about the uses of the addresses. I implemented that night and my life changed forever.

      Good thing I didn't blow this guy off, just because he didn't "do" what he teaches.
      ^ Best analogy so far ^ IM to IM

      Jeffery 100% :-)
      Signature
      In the minute it took me to write this post.. someone died of Covid 19. RIP.
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    • Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      One final note on this topic and then I will fade off into the background...

      In 2003, I was approached by somebody at a poker conference. He said he has been following my progress and was surprised that I wasn't collecting email addresses on my sites. I asked him if he was collecting email addresses. He said no, because he wasn't in the business of building websites. He was in the business of consulting people that made websites.

      We had a brief talk about the uses of the addresses. I implemented that night and my life changed forever.

      Good thing I didn't blow this guy off, just because he didn't "do" what he teaches.
      I don't know why someone who consults with website developers would NOT want to collect addresses. :confused:
      Did he tell you?
      Signature

      Bros find strictly platonic dudes on seekBromance.com
      _______________________________________________
      "It's pretty simple. You work hard, you believe anything is possible, and you try to make the world better."

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      • Profile picture of the author theory expert
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        I don't know why someone who consults with website developers would NOT want to collect addresses. :confused:
        Did he tell you?
        PLEASE READ HIS QUOTE BELOW:
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        I asked him if he was collecting email addresses. He said no, because he wasn't in the business of building websites. He was in the business of consulting people that made websites.
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        • Originally Posted by theory expert View Post

          PLEASE READ HIS QUOTE BELOW:

          I'll rephrase. If you're in any kind of consulting business, why would you not want to build and maintain a list of potentially interested clients with whom to stay in touch?
          Signature

          Bros find strictly platonic dudes on seekBromance.com
          _______________________________________________
          "It's pretty simple. You work hard, you believe anything is possible, and you try to make the world better."

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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    ^ Sick Sig ^

    Jeffery 100%
    Signature
    In the minute it took me to write this post.. someone died of Covid 19. RIP.
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      As far as the OP is concerned, it really depends on the product.

      If the sales page is quite clear about the fact that it is an "idea," then I am okay with that. That doesn't mean that I would purchase it, but I would be okay with it.

      If, however, the sales page indicates that this is a method that was used by the product creator in order to obtain a certain result, then it would be dishonest if that were not the case. Or if the sales page is vague about whether or not the product creator has used a particular method, and questions to clarify that are avoided.

      A good example of things that I would be okay with would be something along the lines of "50 ways to obtain off-line client leads" or "100 traffic generation ideas." I wouldn't expect someone to do every single method, and if the sales page is up front about the fact that these are ideas and not necessarily ones that the product creator tried for him or herself, I would find that acceptable. If I were to purchase something like that it would be with the mindset of trying to see if it sparks any new ideas of my own.

      As far as people questioning why someone with a certain level of success would "waste their time selling seven dollar products":

      There is this guy who claims to be making millions of dollars, yet he's come out with over a dozen products that are under 10 bucks, and he claims to tell all of his secrets in these products - telling me how he wants me to be rich like he is.

      I mean, how can someone expect me to believe that he really is making all this money if I can pick up these products for five or 10 bucks?

      Who does this Donald Trump guy think that he is, anyway? The last book of his I got was $7.99 - he's not fooling me!

      I say that jokingly, of course, but it does relate to WSOs (the honest ones), in a few ways.

      1. It's another income stream. Same as Trump's books. It's diversification.

      2. It builds a reputation and credibility, when done correctly.

      3. The WSO section is a great test market.

      4. Some people actually DO like helping people make money - shocker, I know, but it's true.
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      "Fate protects fools, little children, and ships called Enterprise." ~Commander Riker
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

        4. Some people actually DO like helping people make money - shocker, I know, but it's true.
        Bingo! The people who don't believe this (that people would actually sell their personal money-making methods) are saying a whole lot more about themselves than they think.

        Whenever I see that weak argument it makes me wonder just how greedy the arguer is. If you follow.

        All the best,
        Michael
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          Bingo! The people who don't believe this (that people would actually sell their personal money-making methods) are saying a whole lot more about themselves than they think.

          Whenever I see that weak argument it makes me wonder just how greedy the arguer is. If you follow.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Its interesting how we reveal our own perspective of the world through these things.

          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          But what if I want to buy a pizza AND a $7 WSO?
          Kurt, you are supposed to be being health conscious man! No pizza for you bro!
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post


        As far as the OP is concerned, it really depends on the product.

        If the sales page is quite clear about the fact that it is an "idea," then I am okay with that. That doesn't mean that I would purchase it, but I would be okay with it.

        If, however, the sales page indicates that this is a method that was used by the product creator in order to obtain a certain result, then it would be dishonest if that were not the case. Or if the sales page is vague about whether or not the product creator has used a particular method, and questions to clarify that are avoided.

        A good example of things that I would be okay with would be something along the lines of "50 ways to obtain off-line client leads" or "100 traffic generation ideas." I wouldn't expect someone to do every single method, and if the sales page is up front about the fact that these are ideas and not necessarily ones that the product creator tried for him or herself, I would find that acceptable. If I were to purchase something like that it would be with the mindset of trying to see if it sparks any new ideas of my own.

        As far as people questioning why someone with a certain level of success would waste their time selling seven dollar products:

        There is this guy who claims to be making millions of dollars, yet he's come out with over a dozen products that are under 10 bucks, and he claims to tell all of his secrets in these products - telling me how he wants me to be rich like he is.

        I mean, how can someone expect me to believe that he really is making all this money if I can pick up these products for five or 10 bucks?

        Who does this Donald Trump guy think that he is, anyway? The last book of his I got was $7.99 - he's not fooling me!

        I say that jokingly, of course, but it does relate to WSOs (the honest ones), in a few ways.

        1. It's another income stream. Same as Trump's books. It's diversification.

        2. It builds a reputation and credibility, when done correctly.

        3. The WSO section is a great test market.

        4. Some people actually DO like helping people make money - shocker, I know, but it's true.


        Wow, someone who gets it and actually read what I posted.

        "oh, you misspelled hare, its hair..,"


        Toe-MAY-TOE or Toe-MOTTO, jesus friggin christ, man.

        Theory and Hypothesis are synonyms of each other---look it up champ..,.... christ.

        Most know what I'm saying here, plain and simple.

        A person can read and study all the Arc Wielding books he wants and can quote them all, but unless he picks up a torch and melt some steel, he has no business teaching, on top of that, it could be dangerous.

        Sure, he can sell Arc Wielding books, but teach it?

        How about a guy who writes books about how to fly an airplane but never took a plane off the ground..., just flight simulation, I guarantee you would not get on the plane with him; all the "idea is as good as doing it" people.

        The quote above and my explanation, if you cared to read it , said ideas have their place, even if you are selling them and, in the context you present them.

        Guy even sites an example of which I already explained; if you already built a car that has most parts working, and someone gives you an idea about additions to add, first, you are already in a better position both knowledge wise and experience wise in addition to already having something working or nearly working.

        Listen up, I got an idea about making pants pockets made out of lead so your wallet can't be scanned, never done it, tested it or know if it even works, but I could sell plans on how to make it or sell the pants outright. Really? Hey, folks, that was a joke, but you get my drift.

        Hey, your personal practices are your own, that's between you and your conscious or maker, but most are not going to swallow that a person who has neither done, experienced or even tested information being sold with claims, is kosher or honorable.

        Legal does not mean ethical , but some here believe it has merit, each to his own.

        There is legal JUNK right now being sold, with 40% refunds but the volume of sales make it profitable, gets bad reviews, but sales for awhile, so what does that guy say?

        " There was a percentage that did not request a refund and I do have testimonials, so I did serve somebody, especially since I put my kids thru college and bought a house on this crap I sell, I violated no ftc and fulfilled legal requirements" ( he won't call it crap)

        So what??

        If you think thats cool, fine, but most are not going to buy that logic.

        When I want to learn to fly on my own, I want a teacher that has been flying a real, live, working plane in the thousands of feet in the sky, and if he was a fighter pilot that flew over missions, even better.

        You can sit in a classroom and learn from a "good" guy who never flew a plane in his life, but is "sharing" his perspective and information, for a price, on teaching you to fly from a book and some pdf's.

        Good luck on that one, most know what I'm saying here.


        The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    "Those who can, do; those who can't teach"
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by jgeeked View Post

      "Those who can, do; those who can't teach"

      No, 'Those who cant do; "teach"'

      It means to teach those who cant do.

      Originally Posted by sirtiman View Post

      Make money must be sucking other people money.
      For every thousand dollars I have made with a report the "doers" who bought it, made many more thousands...So I disagree...I think you are putting money IN their pockets... again to echo Michael this shows your view of the world... In my view its different.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    The problem isn't that we don't understand it's that you and others have this artificial, imaginary level in mind at which someone is qualified to teach.

    Please tell me:

    Just how many times does someone have to install a WP blog on their site before they can help someone else?
    Just how many subscribers over what period of time does someone need before they help someone else?
    Just how much money needs to be in the bank before they can help someone else?
    Just how many special reports does someone need to sell before they can help someone else?
    Just how many webhosts does someone have to sign up for before they can help someone else?
    Just how many plugins and what types does someone need to install before they can help someone else?
    Just how many articles does someone need to have written on their blog before they can help someone else?
    Just how many spots in Google and in which positions must someone be before they can help someone else?
    Just how many customers do you need before you can help someone else?
    Just how many forum posts do you need before you can help someone else?
    Just how many emails do someone need to have sent out before they can help someone else?
    Just what conversion rate does a squeeze page need before helping someone else?

    On and on and on and on.

    What's the magic level for all of those things to satisfy you?
    What if someone has 10 subscribers but someone else has 100 and someone else has 1000 and someone else has 10,000 and someone else has 100,000 - which one is more qualified?
    What if the guy with 10 subscribers has a 99% conversion rate and they all stay subscribed but the guy with 100,000 subscribers has a 1% conversion rate and 99% leave as soon as they join? Which one is more qualified.

    This is a totally baseles and useless argument because everyone's idea of success is different.

    Then there's the proof. You willing to show all your sites and all your ebooks and your email account and bank account to verify everything? Better yet because someone can photoshop all that maybe we need a 3rd party CPA or something to be able to verify independently these things. You willing? I didn't think so.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      The problem isn't that we don't understand it's that you and others have this artificial, imaginary level in mind at which someone is qualified to teach.



      Your perception of what I am saying or trying to relay is what is artificial, and yes, the problem IS you do not understand or unwilling to understand. I see your point but you will not see what I said, so that is that.










      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      Please tell me:

      Just how many times does someone have to install a WP blog on their site before they can help someone else?
      Just how many subscribers over what period of time does someone need before they help someone else?
      Just how much money needs to be in the bank before they can help someone else?
      Just how many special reports does someone need to sell before they can help someone else?
      Just how many webhosts does someone have to sign up for before they can help someone else?
      Just how many plugins and what types does someone need to install before they can help someone else?
      Just how many articles does someone need to have written on their blog before they can help someone else?
      Just how many spots in Google and in which positions must someone be before they can help someone else?
      Just how many customers do you need before you can help someone else?
      Just how many forum posts do you need before you can help someone else?
      Just how many emails do someone need to have sent out before they can help someone else?
      Just what conversion rate does a squeeze page need before helping someone else?

      On and on and on and on.

      What's the magic level for all of those things to satisfy you?
      What if someone has 10 subscribers but someone else has 100 and someone else has 1000 and someone else has 10,000 and someone else has 100,000 - which one is more qualified?
      What if the guy with 10 subscribers has a 99% conversion rate and they all stay subscribed but the guy with 100,000 subscribers has a 1% conversion rate and 99% leave as soon as they join? Which one is more qualified.

      Again, totally missed the point. Do you really think my point was what you have here above? Are you thinking or DO you think my opinion is in such single dimensions?

      Does a corporate CEO know every nuance and experience of every aspect of their corporation for it to be successful and make billions of dollars?

      C'mon , dude, I ain't that smart but neither am I that trivial.

      You and others are purposely detouring in an obtuse direction from the point, in general, I brought up.

      Maybe for every word I type, I have to have a 400 page pdf to LITERALLY explain what each word means in context to the conjoining words with thousands upon thousands of examples and scenarios. Jesus....,










      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      This is a totally baseles and useless argument because everyone's idea of success is different.


      This post is baseless and useless because obviously, rather than read what I wrote in the spirit I meant it, you are dedicated to the neurosis of what you think I mean for whatever sore spot this post touched in you without much reading of what I typed in the first place.

      Well, the title of this thread has very good merit and is a sore spot and for the other reason, I did not "manifest" this opinion on my own , but it was an opinion on which I agree with by a few famous, proven marketers whose reputation is impeccable and untarnished, and one I know for certain, is a very old warrior here, a patriarch who has this in the copy of a product being sold here.











      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


      Then there's the proof. You willing to show all your sites and all your ebooks and your email account and bank account to verify everything? Better yet because someone can photoshop all that maybe we need a 3rd party CPA or something to be able to verify independently these things. You willing? I didn't think so.

      Mark

      This is so ridiculous..., dude, there are due diligence methods that satisfy's everyone's needs and taste, what's good enough for one is woefully lacking for others, but the title of this thread is pragmatic and a reality, like it or not.


      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        You're the one saying they've got to do it first and succeed before teaching it, right? Do we agree on this basic premise?

        Then you go on to say that some sellers stuff always works, no fluff, etc. so you KNOW they have done it. How do you KNOW? Maybe the real "conman" is the one that can convince you he has done it when he hasn't - he's just reported what he sees others do. Where is the proof? Did they show you the site and the bank account and the number of affiliates and the...??

        Making $5 a day and claiming someone can make $10,000 a day is clearly wrong. No one is arguing that I think.

        But making $5 a day or $5 a week or $5 ever puts those people in the "doers" category and so based on your own definition they can sell their $5 a day system. Right?

        The point of my post is what is your definition of doing it. How many times do you have to do something before you can teach it. You don't say. So if someone makes $5 one time they can teach it?

        And lastly, what is it that the WSO seller said to do that was so bad, wrong, illegal or whatever? How do you KNOW their system doesn't work if you don't buy it and try it yourself? You're basing your argument, sounds like, on a sales letter and reviews by others.

        Mark



        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        Your perception of what I am saying or trying to relay is what is artificial, and yes, the problem IS you do not understand or unwilling to understand. I see your point but you will not see what I said, so that is that.













        Again, totally missed the point. Do you really think my point was what you have here above? Are you thinking or DO you think my opinion is in such single dimensions?

        Does a corporate CEO know every nuance and experience of every aspect of their corporation for it to be successful and make billions of dollars?

        C'mon , dude, I ain't that smart but neither am I that trivial.

        You and others are purposely detouring in an obtuse direction from the point, in general, I brought up.

        Maybe for every word I type, I have to have a 400 page pdf to LITERALLY explain what each word means in context to the conjoining words with thousands upon thousands of examples and scenarios. Jesus....,














        This post is baseless and useless because obviously, rather than read what I wrote in the spirit I meant it, you are dedicated to the neurosis of what you think I mean for whatever sore spot this post touched in you without much reading of what I typed in the first place.

        Well, the title of this thread has very good merit and is a sore spot and for the other reason, I did not "manifest" this opinion on my own , but it was an opinion on which I agree with by a few famous, proven marketers whose reputation is impeccable and untarnished, and one I know for certain, is a very old warrior here, a patriarch who has this in the copy of a product being sold here.














        This is so ridiculous..., dude, there are due diligence methods that satisfy's everyone's needs and taste, what's good enough for one is woefully lacking for others, but the title of this thread is pragmatic and a reality, like it or not.


        The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Nubitol
    Well, there were and will always be practitioners and academician in every field of our lives. The fact is, both of them are able to teach others. While practitioners rely on their experiences, academician rely on their in-depth researches. It's very possible that they have different, even contradicting opinion about certain matters, both of which are valid.

    Nonetheless, the very basic premise of a research is to produce a certain outcome/result that is replicable provided done under the same condition, regardless of the researchers. So, good academicians will re-run their researches until they can vouch the validity before they actually publish the results.

    The problem is, many people will start selling WSO based on one-hit wonder that they never care to validate or even worse, based on what they think will work. I'm not against the business of selling good ideas about what will work and what will not, however I'm against sales page that claim the result before the creators even try the method. Some people will still buy untested ideas, though. After all, that's what we call experiment and investment, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Nubitol View Post


      Well, there were and will always be practitioners and academician in every field of our lives. The fact is, both of them are able to teach others. While practitioners rely on their experiences, academician rely on their in-depth researches. It's very possible that they have different, even contradicting opinion about certain matters, both of which are valid.

      Nonetheless, the very basic premise of a research is to produce a certain outcome/result that is replicable provided done under the same condition, regardless of the researchers. So, good academicians will re-run their researches until they can vouch the validity before they actually publish the results.

      The problem is, many people will start selling WSO based on one-hit wonder that they never care to validate or even worse, based on what they think will work. I'm not against the business of selling good ideas about what will work and what will not, however I'm against sales page that claim the result before the creators even try the method. Some people will still buy untested ideas, though. After all, that's what we call experiment and investment, right?


      Wow, another one that "get's it".

      Trying to complicate something so simple is, well, unbelievable.

      And I never solely based my opinion on that "copy" because I got that opinion from a completely different forum, actually owner of the forum, much much earlier before this copy.

      Split hairs all you care to.

      What is really surprising, is someone who has been here since 2002 willing to concentrate efforts on dissecting semantics rather than read what I am relaying.

      There is a reason certain trades require certification and field testing before certification.

      Only proves patriarchs of any entity can be as neophyte in perception of reality as someone who just signed up yesterday.

      Someone whose been here since 2002, it's possible that it's so, but it really can't be so, so something else is at the core here, and I don't mean the merit, premise and title of this thread.

      We are just simply not going to agree, for whatever reason.



      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        It's you that is wrong. You ass-u-me that I don't agree with you. You are wrong. I'm asking to what extent, in your opinion, does someone have to be doing it before they can teach it and instead of answering a simple question, you start spouting off about splitting hairs.

        Selling a $7 WSO doesn't make someone a guru nor is it comparable to surgery. Quit making ridiculous comparisons yourself and then claiming others are doing the same.

        You apparently have no proof that anyone actually did anything wrong or that they are teaching something that is proven to not work. If you had it you surely would have provided it since asked to.

        Without proof, your arguments, just like the WSOs you complain about, are worthless.

        Mark

        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        Wow, another one that "get's it".

        Trying to complicate something so simple is, well, unbelievable.

        And I never solely based my opinion on that "copy" because I got that opinion from a completely different forum, actually owner of the forum, much much earlier before this copy.

        Split hairs all you care to.

        What is really surprising, is someone who has been here since 2002 willing to concentrate efforts on dissecting semantics rather than read what I am relaying.

        There is a reason certain trades require certification and field testing before certification.

        Only proves patriarchs of any entity can be as neophyte in perception of reality as someone who just signed up yesterday.

        Someone whose been here since 2002, it's possible that it's so, but it really can't be so, so something else is at the core here, and I don't mean the merit, premise and title of this thread.

        We are just simply not going to agree, for whatever reason.



        The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Wow. Why so much anger 13th Warrior? You obviously don't want people disagreeing with you, and that's understandable to a certain level, but trying to dictate which angle a person uses in a response?

    Your responses to those who are calling you out or positing another point of view speaks volumes.

    Just thought you'd like to know.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      The 13th Warrior...

      I'd like you to answer just one simple question after everything that has gone back and forth in this thread, in the most simple terms...

      What is your point?


      Mark Andrews
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    • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
      It seems that part of the disagreement here is about trying to reduce an issue to black-and-white, when it's really full of gray areas.

      For instance, I wouldn't take a class on flying from someone who had never been in the air before. However, I might take a class on piloting a Cesna 150 from someone who had never flown one, if that person was an expert at flying most every other plane in the sky. There are many things I consider when taking advice, not just whether or not someone has done what he preaches.

      BTW: Not to "split hairs", but Theory | Hypothesis <> (not) synonyms. Any 1st-year science major can tell you that. The difference between the two is essential to the process of scientific evaluation. Do more research.
      Signature

      I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Originally Posted by cjreynolds View Post


        It seems that part of the disagreement here is about trying to reduce an issue to black-and-white, when it's really full of gray areas.

        Exactly.

        Everyone's acceptable due diligence that they deem "good enough" to be worthy, whatever "their" definition of worthy is.

        Even the part of "actually do what they teach" falls into how far or much is acceptable to each individuals standards, that's all I'm saying, does not make it have any less merit of the general statement.




        Originally Posted by cjreynolds View Post


        For instance, I wouldn't take a class on flying from someone who had never been in the air before. However, I might take a class on piloting a Cesna 150 from someone who had never flown one, if that person was an expert at flying most every other plane in the sky. There are many things I consider when taking advice, not just whether or not someone has done what he preaches.

        NOW, this is where the splitting of hairs, arguing semantics and off to some other path begins.

        The quote above statement is neither right nor wrong.

        It would be up to the individual's choice as to whether this scenario is acceptable.

        And it depends on what context a person takes that class and their own reasons.

        Personally, if my reasons was to handle a Cesna 150 in the air, I would not take that bet.

        Even if the Cesna 150 was only a slight modification from the previous models he flew, to each his own to the decision to take a chance with this instructor.



        Originally Posted by cjreynolds View Post


        BTW: Not to "split hairs", but Theory | Hypothesis <> (not) synonyms. Any 1st-year science major can tell you that. The difference between the two is essential to the process of scientific evaluation. Do more research.


        This is where protection of the ego steps in, and yes, the splitting of hairs was definitively done on this one.

        Now let me guess: since it is only minus 1.57941398713574128798333444785214654 from being 100% synonymous with each other, I should probably disregard these definitions.


        hy·poth·e·sis

        Noun:

        A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.



        the·o·ry

        Noun:

        A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be...: "Darwin's theory of evolution"





        The 13th Warrior
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

          Now let me guess: since it is only minus 1.57941398713574128798333444785214654 from being 100% synonymous with each other, I should probably disregard these definitions.


          hy·poth·e·sis

          Noun:

          A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.



          the·o·ry

          Noun:

          A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be...: "Darwin's theory of evolution"




          The 13th Warrior
          I would say they aren't even close to synonymous. To sum up, it seems as though a hypothesis is pulled out of thin air (or based on little evidence), whereas a theory is developed over time and is based on a growing amount of evidence. Surely you can see that's a pretty big difference.

          Now, if you're wondering why I called you out on that in the first place, it's because you were using a common debate tactic. However, you weren't using a word correctly to make your point.

          You were trying to somehow defer to science to give yourself more authority, but then you also demonstrated a lack of knowledge in that regard; thereby weakening your argument.

          Semantics?

          Yes.

          Splitting hairs?

          Only in that you had provided the hairs to be split in the first place.

          Why? To give you an opportunity to use a better example to strengthen your argument. But you didn't do that. Instead, you immediately did the very thing you were accusing me (and others) of doing.

          Getting back to your OP. Is it okay for people to tell you how to do things they haven't done themselves? There is simply no one-size-fits-all answer to the question.

          It really depends on what the "how to" is and the basis for making the recommendation.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Signature

          "Ich bin en fuego!"
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          • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
            Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


            I would say they aren't even close to synonymous. To sum up, it seems as though a hypothesis is pulled out of thin air (or based on little evidence), whereas a theory is developed over time and is based on a growing amount of evidence. Surely you can see that's a pretty big difference.

            Now, if you're wondering why I called you out on that in the first place, it's because you were using a common debate tactic. However, you weren't using a word correctly to make your point.

            You were trying to somehow defer to science to give yourself more authority, but then you also demonstrated a lack of knowledge in that regard; thereby weakening your argument.

            Semantics?

            Yes.

            Splitting hairs?

            Only in that you had provided the hairs to be split in the first place.

            Why? To give you an opportunity to use a better example to strengthen your argument. But you didn't do that. Instead, you immediately did the very thing you were accusing me (and others) of doing.

            Getting back to your OP. Is it okay for people to tell you how to do things they haven't done themselves? There is simply no one-size-fits-all answer to the question.

            It really depends on what the "how to" is and the basis for making the recommendation.

            All the best,
            Michael


            C'mon Oksa, are you kidding me? You are really serious?

            You want to take it in this direction? That is not where this thread was supposed to go.

            It would be nice, what I was looking for in this thread, is due diligence methods that landed people on bonafide, "do as they teach and get results as they teach" type individuals they have found to trust that gave them the results , on big or small scale that they are using it, as advertised, in multiple products of said person.

            C'mon , Mike.., jesus..,




            Hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            A hypothesis (from Ancient Greek ὑπόθεσις, from Greek ὑποτιθέναι – hypotithenai meaning "to put under" or "to suppose,"[1] plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it. Scientists generally base scientific hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with the available scientific theories. Even though the words "hypothesis" and "theory" are often used synonymously, a scientific hypothesis is not the same as a scientific theory. A working hypothesis is a provisionally accepted hypothesis proposed for further research.



            Often used by WHO, the cashier in the supermarket or in general in the academic and scientific community?

            A scientific hypothesis, a scientific theory, a working hypothesis, a working theory, let's just keep going.., jesus christ, man.



            The 13th Warrior
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            • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
              Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post


              Wow. Why so much anger 13th Warrior? You obviously don't want people disagreeing with you, and that's understandable to a certain level, but trying to dictate which angle a person uses in a response?

              Your responses to those who are calling you out or positing another point of view speaks volumes.

              Just thought you'd like to know.

              All the best,
              Michael


              Hey, that's your opinion and perception of what you read and that is that.

              If you have never been angry for being scammed whether in IM or other daily business, that is your personal preference.

              So what if people disagree, even the majority?

              This thread is for people who know what I am saying, people who disagree will disagree, very few exceptions will change their opinion even in the advent of evidence, it really does not matter.

              People will gravitate to what they believe or they won't and all the proof in the world won't change it for the vast majority, even me, but I will gravitate toward something that is showing the most tangible , hands on, consistent real life, day in and out results than others can manifest.

              There was something outside of IM that was and is proving to be The Holy Grail in technique, mind set, philosophy, consistency and results that blows the results of the previous 100 years of this niche out of the water, I mean not even close, yet, people still retain their folklore methods or try to "mix" their folklore methods that NEVER work with this method, trying to make it a "quick fix" gimmick.

              They more enjoy patting each other on the back and talk about folklore and wives-tale methods, to be hunger and need to be perceived by their compatriots as the "go-to-guy" for knowledgeable yarn that haven't worked in the past 100 years, or at least, less than 36% of the time, day in, day out.

              They will even fight you, not based on success, but based on their unsuccessful years in the niche and the useless, fruitless knowledge and arcane rules they have acquired, which turns into more about protecting their ego than getting the truth that works by miles from where and what their present position brings in.

              I am not a stranger to this, so to each his own.



              "All the best", to you too, dude,
              The 13th Warrior
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              • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
                Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post


                It's you that is wrong. You ass-u-me that I don't agree with you. You are wrong. I'm asking to what extent, in your opinion, does someone have to be doing it before they can teach it and instead of answering a simple question, you start spouting off about splitting hairs.

                Selling a $7 WSO doesn't make someone a guru nor is it comparable to surgery. Quit making ridiculous comparisons yourself and then claiming others are doing the same.

                You apparently have no proof that anyone actually did anything wrong or that they are teaching something that is proven to not work. If you had it you surely would have provided it since asked to.

                Without proof, your arguments, just like the WSOs you complain about, are worthless.

                Mark

                I have no idea what you are raving about, here.

                How many times do I have to post that due diligence is up to each individuals acceptable standards ?

                Proof?? I am sure Bernie Madoff , WorldCom and Enron had proof, hell, he even has a picture with The President of The United States....., proof can be doctored, and even then, unacceptable by the standards of "proof" to the individual.

                I am sure a guy selling oranges at the side of the freeway has an "idea" that was used by NASA scientist and probably contributed to some success, so what???

                Is orange seller NOW "the idea" , a guruman to make everyone successful?

                And if so , in what context? That is up to each individual..., I would say he has not done what he teaches, someone else who is working in that field with some amount of success in that field assessed it was feasible and came to success.

                So what?

                Comparisons may or may not be ridiculous, so we go by whose standards, yours?

                Most of what your post that you are accusing me of, I am at a lost as to what you are talking about.

                Proof? Everyone has their opinion on proof.

                And the way it was stated here and solicited for proof , sounds noob like, not someone of experience and has been here since 2002.

                I am not disrespecting you, because I am certain you contributed to the success of The Warrior Forum and it's foundation, it's just the way you went on about proof just sounds unbecoming of a person with that much seniority, that's all. If I am wrong about that, then I sincerely apologize to you personally, even if we still disagree.

                It probably has merit that The Warrior Forum is here because of some of your contribution, so that simply has to be said and respected.


                The 13th Warrior
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                • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
                  13th Warrior,

                  I generally agree with your assertion that people should not be selling stuff they know nothing about nor should they make claims they have not achieved themselves. I would be wrong to claim that by following a certain technique that I'll tell you all about for $17 that I've made $10,000 a day the last 10 years because that is not true. I also would be wrong to write an ebook about doing financial audits, surgery, physics (or most science), buying/selling real estate, etc.

                  Where I get unwound is the fact that there are many, many, many grey areas in this as has been discussed but I took your initial statements differently than you intended them perhaps.

                  So let's part friends and get back to work.

                  Mark

                  PS I'm just a regular Joe that loves the WF - it's kind of like family in a way. I've done nothing special here but do hope that something I've said along the way (since about 2000) has helped someone a little bit.

                  Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

                  I have no idea what you are raving about, here.

                  How many times do I have to post that due diligence is up to each individuals acceptable standards ?

                  Proof?? I am sure Bernie Madoff , WorldCom and Enron had proof, hell, he even has a picture with The President of The United States....., proof can be doctored, and even then, unacceptable by the standards of "proof" to the individual.

                  I am sure a guy selling oranges at the side of the freeway has an "idea" that was used by NASA scientist and probably contributed to some success, so what???

                  Is orange seller NOW "the idea" , a guruman to make everyone successful?

                  And if so , in what context? That is up to each individual..., I would say he has not done what he teaches, someone else who is working in that field with some amount of success in that field assessed it was feasible and came to success.

                  So what?

                  Comparisons may or may not be ridiculous, so we go by whose standards, yours?

                  Most of what your post that you are accusing me of, I am at a lost as to what you are talking about.

                  Proof? Everyone has their opinion on proof.

                  And the way it was stated here and solicited for proof , sounds noob like, not someone of experience and has been here since 2002.

                  I am not disrespecting you, because I am certain you contributed to the success of The Warrior Forum and it's foundation, it's just the way you went on about proof just sounds unbecoming of a person with that much seniority, that's all. If I am wrong about that, then I sincerely apologize to you personally, even if we still disagree.

                  It probably has merit that The Warrior Forum is here because of some of your contribution, so that simply has to be said and respected.


                  The 13th Warrior
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Wow. Why so much anger 13th Warrior? You obviously don't want people disagreeing with you, and that's understandable to a certain level, but trying to dictate which angle a person uses in a response?

      Your responses to those who are calling you out or positing another point of view speaks volumes.

      Just thought you'd like to know.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Also , if people arent getting your point, and are misunderstanding what you wrote, and it takes a rocket scientist like Shay to decipher it... then maybe you arent communicating clearly and you need to work on your communication skills so that more people can understand you.

      If 9 out of 10 people misunderstood you, then you have an issue with clarity in your post. Take it and learn from it and be more clear next time and tell people "Sorry I wasnt clear".

      Instead of 'I cant believe you are so dumb to not understand...', if it were me I would say "Sorry, I cant believe I was so dumb that 9 out of 10 people couldnt get my point, let me rephrase it and edit my OP".

      -JD
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    There are people here that could sell WSOs of extreme value about "how they do it themselves", but those same people often post outside of the WSO Section and it is for free.

    I'm going to use the term 'expert' and please do not be overly critical of the term. Just making a point.

    Some people go into great detail about Article Syndication (AS) and have been doing so for a very long time here at the WF. No need to question if the content is right or wrong because a lot of AS experts would have discredited them long ago. At least one that I know of sells WSOs and nobody complains.

    There are in fact some SEO experts here and a few of them are considered to be in the top ten of the industry. At least two that I know of sell WSOs and nobody complains.

    The point is.. The WSO sellers that have no complaints must be doing it right and maybe the seller does it themselves. Some of those threads have been active for months and there are very few complaints (usually misunderstandings clarified quickly).

    On the other hand.. There are in fact WSOs where the seller claims they do it themselves, but one look at the content and a seasoned marketer finds a lot of wholes which may be indicate the seller does not know how to explain it so others will understand or quite possibly the seller is peddling snake oil.

    As a buyer I prefer to see any positive reviews about the product and the seller that is new to the WF before I buy. I think it is call Due Diligence? Time sorts it all out in the end.

    Then there are the folks that can post one or two lines and the cash rolls in! I'll never forget what Allen did for us with ClickBank when things were topsy turvy. He posted two or three lines and ended that problem. Wasn't long after that a good hearted Warrior posted a few lines to get hot on YouTube when no-one had ever heard about it.

    Just goes to show that there is more good than bad that goes on around these parts and there is no reason to shoot first and complain that you missed.. where we talk about making money vs. buying ways to make money.

    Jeffery 100% :-)
    Signature
    In the minute it took me to write this post.. someone died of Covid 19. RIP.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnDS
    Been there.

    I've been reading all kind of eBooks, tried all kind of auto programs etc and so far I haven't made a single cent.

    I make my money other way around but all I can say is that 99% of so called "gurus" are just pathetic.

    I'd believe someone who can actually show some real video guideline with money stacking up and asking $500 for his product rather than some guy who "has done everything" and found the "holy grail" and now he's selling method for $100, but wait, considering you're a special viewer you'll get it for only 29.99.... really?! Who still believes in that crap?

    No one is being creative anymore. All they do is rip-off other products which are pure failure, edit it a bit and boom, I've got WSO ready to go.

    I mean seriously...
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    • Profile picture of the author Khaliff
      Originally Posted by JohnDS View Post

      Been there.

      I've been reading all kind of eBooks, tried all kind of auto programs etc and so far I haven't made a single cent.

      I make my money other way around but all I can say is that 99% of so called "gurus" are just pathetic.

      I'd believe someone who can actually show some real video guideline with money stacking up and asking $500 for his product rather than some guy who "has done everything" and found the "holy grail" and now he's selling method for $100, but wait, considering you're a special viewer you'll get it for only 29.99.... really?! Who still believes in that crap?

      No one is being creative anymore. All they do is rip-off other products which are pure failure, edit it a bit and boom, I've got WSO ready to go.

      I mean seriously...
      I'd like to respond to your post and make a few points. I am a bit dismayed by your statement that you "haven't made a single cent". I am going to post a few TIPS and let's assume that the reader is reading them for the very FIRST time and I am the FIRST to introduce them to these "ideas". Please read then tell me if you think these ideas have ANY value to a first time reader who was unaware of them. (I'll list just 7 just off the top of my head). BTW I've done ALL of these things and made money. ...LOTS over time BTW:

      1) Go to clickbank.com, began promoting hot products.
      2) Go to squidoo.com. Create lenses on hot topics. Promote them. Make money.
      3) Read up on Affiliate Marketing. Join a few networks, began promoting your affiliate links, banners, etc using various methods.
      4) Create a blog, monetize it with absence and affiliate banners, promote blog
      5) Buy & Sell potentially hot domain names
      6) Learn SEO, created pages around key word phrases, get free traffic, get paid
      7) Create a digital info product, list it on clickbank, let affiliates find it and promote it AND go after affiliates already promoting other products successfully.

      My point, sir, is that ALL of these methods Do work every single day, all day. Now IF someone introduced me to these ideas, for the first time and I implemented them ...and made money then there IS value to the info-product that pointed me in the right direction. Ex. I first learned about Squidoo.com from a free ebook called "Bum Marketing" by Travis (something). As a result of that ebook I created a few "lenses" (or web pages) around topics that people were interested in and have made several hundreds of dollar on just ONE of them. That alone would have made the "Bum Marketing" ebook a good investment IF I had purchased it because, again, I knew NOTHING about squidoo.com prior to that.

      And sir, I don't recall WHO or WHERE I first learned about clickbank.com (it was LONNNG time ago) but IF I had paid for an info-product introducing me to clickbank.com it would have been well worth ANY price I'd paid for it.

      I had been painstakingly selling a book in bookstores and via classic snail mail-order when I learned about clickbank. I then started selling this $19.95 paper-back book on clickbank and raised the price to $39.95 then to $49.95. I actually sold much MORE at $49.95 than I'd EVER sold at $19.95 plus affiliates started selling it for me as well!

      So just the IDEA of selling on clickbank in addition to or INSTEAD of selling the book in print proved to be PRICELESS info that I would have GLADLY have paid for.

      A recent WSO, that I purchased recently, a plug-in theme and instructions for creating restaurant (or other) niche sites is working out very well and is saving me TONS of time since the foundation is already laid out.

      My point is that although I DO agree with you in theory ...to some extent, let's always be OPTIMISTS rather than PESSIMISTS. Not everything has worked out well but ENOUGH has worked out to where I am FREE!
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnDS
        Originally Posted by Khaliff View Post

        I'd like to respond to your post and make a few points. I am a bit dismayed by your statement that you "haven't made a single cent". I am going to post a few TIPS and let's assume that the reader is reading them for the very FIRST time and I am the FIRST to introduce them to these "ideas". Please read then tell me if you think these ideas have ANY value to a first time reader who was unaware of them. (I'll list just 7 just off the top of my head). BTW I've done ALL of these things and made money. ...LOTS over time BTW:

        1) Go to clickbank.com, began promoting hot products.
        2) Go to squidoo.com. Create lenses on hot topics. Promote them. Make money.
        3) Read up on Affiliate Marketing. Join a few networks, began promoting your affiliate links, banners, etc using various methods.
        4) Create a blog, monetize it with absence and affiliate banners, promote blog
        5) Buy & Sell potentially hot domain names
        6) Learn SEO, created pages around key word phrases, get free traffic, get paid
        7) Create a digital info product, list it on clickbank, let affiliates find it and promote it AND go after affiliates already promoting other products successfully.

        My point, sir, is that ALL of these methods Do work every single day, all day. Now IF someone introduced me to these ideas, for the first time and I implemented them ...and made money then there IS value to the info-product that pointed me in the right direction. Ex. I first learned about Squidoo.com from a free ebook called "Bum Marketing" by Travis (something). As a result of that ebook I created a few "lenses" (or web pages) around topics that people were interested in and have made several hundreds of dollar on just ONE of them. That alone would have made the "Bum Marketing" ebook a good investment IF I had purchased it because, again, I knew NOTHING about squidoo.com prior to that.

        And sir, I don't recall WHO or WHERE I first learned about clickbank.com (it was LONNNG time ago) but IF I had paid for an info-product introducing me to clickbank.com it would have been well worth ANY price I'd paid for it.

        I had been painstakingly selling a book in bookstores and via classic snail mail-order when I learned about clickbank. I then started selling this $19.95 paper-back book on clickbank and raised the price to $39.95 then to $49.95. I actually sold much MORE at $49.95 than I'd EVER sold at $19.95 plus affiliates started selling it for me as well!

        So just the IDEA of selling on clickbank in addition to or INSTEAD of selling the book in print proved to be PRICELESS info that I would have GLADLY have paid for.

        A recent WSO, that I purchased recently, a plug-in theme and instructions for creating restaurant (or other) niche sites is working out very well and is saving me TONS of time since the foundation is already laid out.

        My point is that although I DO agree with you in theory ...to some extent, let's always be OPTIMISTS rather than PESSIMISTS. Not everything has worked out well but ENOUGH has worked out to where I am FREE!
        I'm optimistic actually mate, what I'm trying to say is that I'm sick of those gurus who don't know a thing about anything, giving you 10 min video of their life story. How it all went down and then suddenly they start making 30K in 1 month and they want to share it with you for $29.99.

        Note, I DO MAKE money online. But none of these gurus actually helped me learn something new that I didn't knew before. It's basically useless information for me. It's been said and written before, they don't offer anything NEW, zero creativity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Khaliff
    I agree with you. I've seen it tons of times. What's worse is that many "reputable" and well-known "gurus" actually ENCOURAGE this type of thing. I've been present in workshops where NEWBIES with NO actual experience under their belt have admitted to having this "great idea" for an info product about "making money" and when asked how much money THEY have made they've responded saying "Uh ...NOTHING ...actually but..."

    Now you would THINK that THIS it the point wherein the "reputable" guru would say "Look guy ...why don't you create an info product about something that you truly KNOW ...what's your hobby? What are you good at? Martial arts? Then why not create an info-product about some unique aspect of martial arts and go after THAT niche. Give actual VALUE to your customers."

    In a perfect world that's what would happen, but instead, the guru (and I've seen this several times) just casually gives tips on how to put this info-product together complete with TIPS on creating FALSE claims and even FALSE testimonials. (I could name names but ...I won't. If you've been around for awhile you've probably seen this yourself.)

    I'm not against the IDEA product IF the "ideas" are GOOD and IF the seller is HONEST about it. Let's remember that SOME people are ONLY good at coming at with great ideas but they SUCK at implementing any of them. That does NOT invalidate the truly "great" ideas or mean that they're not useful or valuable. Just don't LIE and pretend that YOU have actually implemented your "great idea". Therein lies the problem ...the HUGE problem!
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  • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
    I agree as well. If you are promoting a high ticket product, you better have done the work yourself first and have results. Then create a info product to train other people how to replicate what was done. I have bought many courses and implemented them and they worked. In this field...its follower the leader...and they need to be a real leader.
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