Guru bashing the guru's a real smackdown...

by David_Thompson 45 replies
I got an email today about a very interesting
video I think a lot of noobs would be most
eager to see and a few old hands should
take notice...

4 Magic Questions Jim Edwards

--David
#main internet marketing discussion forum #basing #guru #real #smackdown
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  • Profile picture of the author JPaston
    Anybody else viewed this - it is SO true!

    If you've ever bought an over-hyped product and found it didn't live up to the promise then this video will strike a chord.

    If you've ever thought that 'Internet Marketing' was a short cut to scammy products then this video shows you that it needn't be (but often is).

    If you've ever wondered how you can beat the 'gurus' and deliver customer satisfaction then this video shows you how.

    PS. It's not selling anything!
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    • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
      JP, I'm glad you like it man it is a breath
      of fresh air man...Jim really did lay it out
      for real...

      --David
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      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
        I like the opinions etc...but I would have to look up a lot of what he is selling before I gave it merit...A lot of people have "holier than thou" attitudes...and sell shit themselves.

        However if it was a perfect world...what he says is definitely valid.

        To have long term success I feel you do have to follow what he says with the 4 questions. If you are taking on a niche market and introducing a product.

        However...it is hard to put validity into what he says about the product he paid $99 for because we don't know what it is...If we knew what it was and saw the product for ourselves maybe we would agree maybe we wouldn't.

        We had a thread here I think Steven Wagenheim started back on the old forum about what CRAP is...as far as products go. We also discussed this in a chat on Friday nights about a month or so ago.

        You always come back to the same thing...one persons idea of CRAP...is another persons idea of solid gold. So maybe this product he is referring to was killer for newbies and horrible for long time marketers. We will never know because we don't know what the product was.

        So I know there really are CRAP products...I have seen them. But a CRAP product would be a product that has no value at all for the target market.

        For instance a product showing how to register a domain, and setup a blog...

        And you are trying to market it to people who run a hosting company heh

        Or trying to sell a simple script that counts hits to your website to a professional PHP programmer...

        Obviously that is the wrong market to target and those people are going to think what a piece of garbage this is...lol

        But I did like the video...
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Awesome video! Especially the "rant" at the beginning. I recently had the same experience.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Some wonderful honesty for a change.

        Jim's my new favorite "guru" LOL.
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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Some wonderful honesty for a change.

          Jim's my new favorite "guru" LOL.
          Speak of the Devil hehe...I was mentioning we discussed this once...It was you that started that thread right Steven? Musta been posting in this around the same time lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
        Jim is one of the good guys online and his message as I see it is that we should make sure that we are delivering great value with our products.

        I think that if you want to keep your subscribers they have to trust what you are teaching them or telling them. The minute you lose that trust you are dead in the water.

        Concentrate on helping people in a professional manner and with integrity and you won't go far wrong.

        Roy
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi,

          Yeh, I'm sure it was interesting and enlightening, but if you ARE going to come across as 'holier than though', it's a really bad idea to start your rant with -

          'No, the names haven't been changed to protect the innocent.'

          and then proceed to talk about 'guru' and 'person.'

          That's misleading. If you're claiming to want to help people and say that names haven't been changed, then tell us the names!

          If you say 'the names haven't been changed' then proceed to with-hold
          them you make yourself look as bad as the people you are criticising.

          hrrrmpphhh.
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            ExRat,
            I must admit that was the one thing that stood out in the video that struck me odd.

            BUt I still think it was a well made video and that we all can learn from it!
            Kim
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          • Profile picture of the author zerofill
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            'No, the names haven't been changed to protect the innocent.'

            and then proceed to talk about 'guru' and 'person.'

            That's misleading. If you're claiming to want to help people and say that names haven't been changed, then tell us the names!
            Yeah that was what I was trying to get at too...
            That stuck out like a big flashing beacon...
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            • Profile picture of the author davemiz
              jim's a trip.... but theres nothing like bashing others when trying to sell your own stuff.

              if he wasn't trying to sell you something, then it would be a different story.
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi Dave,
                but theres nothing like bashing others when trying to sell your own stuff.

                if he wasn't trying to sell you something, then it would be a different story.
                I'd be interested to know your reasoning behind that thinking.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi,

            Yeh, I'm sure it was interesting and enlightening, but if you ARE going to come across as 'holier than though', it's a really bad idea to start your rant with -

            'No, the names haven't been changed to protect the innocent.'

            and then proceed to talk about 'guru' and 'person.'

            That's misleading. If you're claiming to want to help people and say that names haven't been changed, then tell us the names!

            If you say 'the names haven't been changed' then proceed to with-hold
            them you make yourself look as bad as the people you are criticising.

            hrrrmpphhh.

            You know Roger, I missed that. Don't ask me how but it just went right
            by me. So I played the video again.

            You're right. I'm sorry but Jim dropped the ball on this one. He either
            should have left out the part about not changing the names OR name some
            names.

            I'm now very disappointed in this whole thing. This is just another very
            carefully disguised "make me look good" video.

            Don't worry, I'm going to make a video similar to this and I will NOT only
            name names but products as well.

            I recently had a very unpleasant experience with a product that said it
            would show me a simple way to make $1,000 a day or a week or something
            like that. When I got the book, they had everything in it BUT the key
            thing...how to promote it. If you read it you'll understand.

            I have been fuming about this piece of crap since and I think I'll just expose
            this creep for what he is.

            Should be a lot of fun.

            Oh, and in case anybody doesn't know me...I have NO problems naming
            names.

            As a matter of fact...I live for it.

            Now I just have to hope I can find that damn book again.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Jim Edwards has always been one of my favorite marketers. His Friday Night Smackdowns cracked me up. Of course he is not going to "name" someone - he doesn't do that kind of petty marketing - but he does not hesitate to give his opinion and there's a lot of truth in what he says.

              The description he gave of the poor product being over-hyped is likely true of many promotions seen in seminars, on videos and here, for that matter.

              We often see posts here about "all the guru's promoting all the launches" - and seldom does anyone contradict that statement. Instead people jump in to point out that making money is the goal, blah blah.

              In fact, there are some great top marketers who do not jump in to promote every latest, greatest big launch...while there is a group that routinely promotes every big launch. Edwards is one of the former. He was also routinely using video when others were discussing its "potential".

              Listening to Edwards is always a breath of fresh air.

              kay
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              • Profile picture of the author TOPGUN08
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                • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
                  Originally Posted by TOPGUN08 View Post

                  I wasn't all that impressed. I mean if you're going to say "names haven't been changed to protect the innocent" and then fail to mention names then what's the bloody point of saying that? Arrrghh!!

                  I got lost in the content that all the talk about
                  naming names just went over my head...lol

                  But that's part of the guru act isn't it... where
                  they hint about calling out one of their buddies
                  but never do...

                  --David
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                • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
                  His rant is dead on.

                  It reminds me of this old classic:

                  The Warrior Forum - Niche, Niche, Blah, Blah.... I am new and broke
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Like him or not, those 4 questions, when applied correctly, will make you wads of $$$$. I guarantee, it's one of those concepts that are so simple that they will be overlooked by many. So for those of you that aren't "impressed" you're missing out on a multi-million dollar niche-finding-formula.

    Josh, yeah, that one was a classic. I liked it back then; I still like it now.

    Rod
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I agree, Rod - I dug out my original notes from this video!
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      • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I agree, Rod - I dug out my original notes from this video!
        Hey Kay,

        why not share your notes with us then...

        It would be interesting.

        -David
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        • Profile picture of the author 1inamillion
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          • I like Jim, always have, he's sort of been AFK for sometime now due to personal issues but good to see he's back with a vengeance.

            Sure there's an element of "you can't trust them but you can trust me" in it, but overall he makes good points. I was never incredibly impressed with his products but they were solid, did what they said on the can.

            He's also provided some pretty good information over the years for free, he's less hype and more substance than most.
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            • Profile picture of the author 2bneil
              Thank you so much for the link to the video. I am a victim of the latest thing syndrome. My hard disk has a number of high priced items that really have less value than the hype. When Jim spoke about gurus and floggers, all I could think of was a friend who has come to refer to many of these people as "goorons". As a newbie all I saw were the dollars, not the hype. I suspect there are some in the internet marketing field that do deliver value and good advice, but how do I tell which ones are honest?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris W. Sutton
    I have always been a fan of Jim Edwards but I don't think this video is such a new and unique thing. I think it is just another approach to internet marketing. I could be wrong and I often am but it still seems like he is trying to lure you into buying his product by making you feel like he is different.

    Look, he is selling a $997 course. You are certainly going to have to feel pretty comfortable before you shell out that kind of money!

    Don't misconstrue what I am saying here. I have always had a lot of respect for Jim Edwards and he has put out some excellent stuff. He seems to be a decent person who is trying to make a living just like everyone else. If you have the disposable income to buy his system, by all means go for it. You will probably learn a lot from it.

    BUT, if you are one of the millions of people who struggle to make a living, learn to tell the difference between marketing and honest sincerity. You can't afford to buy these dreams and you need to provide for your family first.

    Never use needed money to buy something because you are talked into it!
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
      hehe, he said "sucks ass"

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author 2bwealthy
        was waiting for the Guru names... kind of expecting it based on his intro.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
          I happen to think Jim Edwards 'rant' is dead on accurate.

          When you get 10 or 15 breathless emails promoting something on the same day, and for days leading up to it, you need to question if those sellers/affiliates even know jack squat about the product in the first place.

          I do agree tho, I wish Jim had disclosed who the gurus he was talking about were, but his message is still a solid one, imo.
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          Jim Edwards has been a true pioneer in online marketing.

          He was one of the first people to teach ebook marketing (in 7 day ebook) and one of the first people to aggressively use video online to market products.

          And all of his products are excellent.

          I also agree that if you're in marketing you need to stay true to some kind of moral compass.

          You should be in any business to genuinely help your clients...not to try to make a quick buck.

          And I'd even go so far as to say that goes for your job too.

          If you're working a job you should be doing everything you can to genuinely help the end user who hopefully benefits from what you do.

          I think a lot of the problems with dodgy online marketers comes from the soulless job mentality of turning up from 9 to 5 to make a lousy buck.

          Everything you do in life can either help someone or hurt someone.

          And you have the choice.

          It would be so much better if you chose to help people.

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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          • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
            I'm compelled to say something else:

            If you took the time to watch all 6 videos you'd find that Jim went to great pains to show you exactly how to research a niche market and...

            1. Create a product or service that will sell.

            2. Genuinely benefit the clients who buy from you.

            He's not guru bashing...he's showing you how to make money helping people.

            He tells you to ask these questions about the niche you want to market to...

            1. Who are they?
            2. What do they want?
            3. How can you help them?
            4. How can you provide HIGH value at a price you BOTH think is fair?

            Or Jim says you can boil it all down to just one question...
            Who's out there with a problem I can help them with?


            This is pure product creation gold.

            And here's another exercise you can follow...

            Get a blank piece of paper and ask yourself this question...

            "What is the end result I want for my clients?"

            "What benefits do I want them to get out of their interaction with me and my products?"

            "What is the first step my clients need to take to move them towards that end result and those benefits?"

            "What do they need in information, tools etc to take that first step?"

            "What is the next step?" and so on.

            That's how you create products that genuinely help and serve people.


            One of the biggest problems is people's eagerness to jump on the guru bashing bandwagon instead of thinking "hey there's a huge opportunity for me here to genuinely help people and make some money in the process".

            The best way to make a change in this market is for YOU to go out of your way to provide genuine and exceptional value in your products and services.

            And that is the major point Jim was trying to get across in these videos.

            Kindest regards,
            Andrew Cavanagh
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            It's one of the sad things about IM. There are some great people around, some nice ways to make money and lots of money to be made - but some people have such low expectations for their success that they are happy to go for the quick buck in order to try and get short term satisfaction and many newbies end up being the victims of that.
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            nothing to see here.

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            • Profile picture of the author Tristan Bull
              haha not a bad video
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              • Profile picture of the author Stephanie Trahd
                Jim Edwards cracks me up! If you haven't had the pleasure of hearing him whine, you're in for a real treat! What's interesting to me is how 'viral' this video has gotten - I first got it because I'm on Jim's list, but have since seen it posted on other blogs and forums (as well as here). Kudos to Jim!
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                • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
                  Ok - Jim is now my favorite marketer.

                  I unsubscribed from everyones list long ago because I don't buy stuff from them and all I get is promotion after promotion.

                  I now belong to one list.

                  Jim - if you're reading this - you hit the nail on the head!
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                  • Profile picture of the author joshbond
                    He's done a good job with this and it is attention grabbing but in reality the only thing it will do is help him sell to people that have been in the business for long enough to know this stuff. The n00bz who its targeted at will most likely never see it.

                    I've never really liked the "negative" approach of knocking other peoples stuff to attract attention but he seems to like it and its working for him so what the hell. I'm all for anything that works and for people putting a little extra personal effort into what they do is always a bonus too.
                    There are just so many "positive" ways to make money and attract attention to yourself without having to "bash" others. But hey, like I said, its working for him....
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
                    Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

                    Ok - Jim is now my favorite marketer.

                    I unsubscribed from everyones list long ago because I don't buy stuff from them and all I get is promotion after promotion.

                    I now belong to one list.

                    Jim - if you're reading this - you hit the nail on the head!

                    So I guess you are now subscribed to two lists... LOL

                    Mike Hill
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                    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                      Hi,

                      This is really interesting. It's clear for anyone to see that Jim has earnt a ton of respect over a long period with many people. That's a great thing, to be admired, and not the easiest or the most common thing in this industry.

                      But those things on one side, I still think he dropped the ball, unless I'm missing who his target market is. Is his target market the 'oldies'? (forgive the term.)

                      Are any of the people who have stood up for him here going to slap down $997?

                      If it isn't the oldies, then who is it?

                      Because in my opinion, that one statement near the start, that one piece of 'clumsy humour' (if that's what it was) scuppered the whole thing and I reckon many people who previously hadn't heard of him, never got much further than that part.

                      Lots of buyers can relate to the story he told about buying rubbish for $100 and feeling disappointed. But to bring that up and then (intentionally or not) mislead them right from the start is not going to endear people to his message - it just seems like more of the same and a little 'bandwagonish'. I doubt he meant to do it, but the fact is - he did. It just needs a little edit (in my opinion).

                      And the fact that it draws a thread title such as - 'Guru bashing the guru's a real smackdown...' demonstrates my point. It wasn't a real smackdown at all. He bashed someone called 'guru'. Is he not friends with any of these gurus?

                      Let's put it into context - over the last year or two there have been a slew of products called guru killer, google annihilator etc which all run on the theme of 'getting back at the big bad guy who tricked you by prospering from them.' And many IM gurus jumped on this bandwagon too, it wasn't just an underground thing, it surpassed that - and that just left an even worse taste for a lot of people.

                      And virtually all of those products had one thing in common - they might as well have been a box full of air - there was nothing to them at all. So people have had a gutful of the 'misleading advertising related to guru bashing.' If you're going to position yourself as 'the one who puts things right' I think you have to be very careful, because people are going to be expecting you to be using the same 'trick' - they are anticipating the 'double bluff.'

                      So IF Jim was aiming for any of the crowd that didn't already instantly know his name, I DO feel that that one small error was worth noting.

                      And whether you feel that the things he explained in the video such as this made up for it -

                      it all down to just one question...
                      Who's out there with a problem I can help them with?

                      This is pure product creation gold.
                      I feel that people are used to finding that product creators spend much more time polishing their message than they do their products. Therefore if someone drops the ball in their message, how many times do they do it in their product?

                      Just an observation - I have nothing against the fella and I'm not bashing him. I just saw something in there that immediately stood out and felt it was worth discussing. That's what we're here for, isn't it?
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      • Profile picture of the author GailTrahd
        Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

        hehe, he said "sucks ass"

        .
        That was something I hadn't heard in IM before

        I've always like Jim and his marketing. I find that he 'gives' more content in his calls and used to be in his ezines than I've read other places - except maybe Marlon.

        I tend to think that his rant at the beginning was more sincere than marketing because I've read bits and pieces of it in his other stuff over the years.

        And I can't imagine that naming names wouldn't get him in more legal trouble than it would be worth. I don't remember ever reading or hearing a product or guru being bashed by name in public - too much legal muck involved when there are people with deep pockets who can pursue the issue.
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        • Profile picture of the author Barry Plaskow
          Seems to be the in thing-guru bashing.

          It's a shame. What's needed is a serious look at the industry and show what works and what does not.

          That is what we have tried to do throughout the Marketing Masters series. I do nor believe in bashing for the sake of bashing or as a sales ploy.

          It's about helping people succeed. That's it.

          Barry Plaskow
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          • I think it's fair to say Jim's been away a while, in that video he suggested using Overtures Keyword tool :-)
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            • Profile picture of the author rmholla
              While the video makes good points I am also getting tired of the bait and switch crap. How is this a "smackdown?" He doesn't name names. I guess someone could search for recent products at that price in that niche if they really wanted to know but I think Jim took the easy way out.

              If he was really standing on moral principle and looking out for the little guy then he would have named the course, the author, and the person whose endorsement got him to buy.

              I really like Vic over at BloggerUnleashed because he calls people out by name. He tells it like it really is. Yes, he swears and he is very gruff but he doesn't cop out and not mention names.


              Rhonda
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
                It almost seems like really bad NLP stuff... by trying to anchor the term "Guru" with a bad feeling of being ripped off, but then Jim tries to stay above the "Guru" threshold by constantly referring to the "Guru" as "They".... (creating distance)

                All in all I think there must not have really been even a problem because how many people can relate to buying a product in any niche were it was over-hyped and over-priced?

                Certainly a lot of products out there fit the bill and the implication is further reinforced by being a little more specific by referring to the product Jim was talking about as a copywriting type of product.

                I'm sure any reference in the IM field related to a bad product that was over-hyped would have had the same reaction ...

                By referring to a particular type of product in the manner in which he did, others who watch the video would most likely think right away of their last unpleasant purchase.

                Who knows, maybe I'm way off track here but this was my first thought after watching the video...

                Mike Hill

                PS. NLP is wicked cool (just thought I'd add that in here) LOL
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              • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
                Originally Posted by rmholla View Post

                While the video makes good points I am also getting tired of the bait and switch crap. How is this a "smackdown?" He doesn't name names. I guess someone could search for recent products at that price in that niche if they really wanted to know but I think Jim took the easy way out.

                If he was really standing on moral principle and looking out for the little guy then he would have named the course, the author, and the person whose endorsement got him to buy.

                I really like Vic over at BloggerUnleashed because he calls people out by name. He tells it like it really is. Yes, he swears and he is very gruff but he doesn't cop out and not mention names.


                Rhonda
                Rhonda, I guess if you name a person he might
                be leaving himself open for legal shit so I can
                understand that but it would have been awesome
                if he actually gave the name...lol

                Mike you are right he is doing a bit of NLP stuff
                in the video *anchoring* but overall I think it
                touch some good points.

                --David
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  If he was really standing on moral principle and looking out for the little guy then he would have named the course, the author, and the person whose endorsement got him to buy.
                  The "smackdowns" were a series of rants by Jim Edwards - usually videos posted on Friday nights that he started 2-3 years ago. This isn't one of Jim's smackdowns - just one of his videos.

                  I don't know where in that video you see any "bait and switch". And it wasn't done to provide a high moral ground to impress anyone. Morals are personal and you don't protect someone else's morals - only your own.

                  I see people reading so many ulterior motives into what was some good advice - and they'll probably keep ignoring the advice. Think of the advice you read here about "building lists" - talking about how make people sign up how many promotions to send them, and how many freebies you have to do before you can start hard selling to that list....

                  Jim says know who signs up for your list - learn enough about those PEOPLE to know what they really want - and give/sell it to them. Sounds pretty smart to me - and his is one list I've never unsubscribed from year after year.

                  The only purpose in "naming" is to carry out a personal feud and make it public - and naming names only feeds the basest nature of those reading such rants. It doesn't improve anyone's business - only satisfies curiosity.

                  kay
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                  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
                    I know who the person is and I know which course it is.

                    I think the reason Jim didn't mention it is because:

                    1. The guy is VERY well known and most of his products are outstanding including, ironically, the product where this comment was made.

                    2. He is a highly respected marketer who occasionally makes offhand remarks like these that are meant to be taken only half seriously (so naming the product or the marketer would really be taking the comment a little out of context).

                    It's still a crappy comment though.

                    Jim is friends with nearly EVERY internet marketing guru and he is just not the kind of guy to name anyone.

                    He has been around a long, long time and no he has not been "away" for a while.

                    Finally there's no bait and switch in this video.

                    He tells you exactly what content you're going to find in the video, he delivers it and there's no product pitch anywhere.

                    You could take the information out of this video, apply it and make real money online.

                    What more could you ask for.

                    Kindest regards,
                    Andrew Cavanagh
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                    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                      Hi,

                      I still feel the same and with each comment added, wonder if anyone understood the point of my two posts. I wasn't saying that he should name anyone, but I was saying that the comment -

                      'No, the names haven't been changed to protect the innocent.'
                      ...was ill-advised.

                      He is a highly respected marketer who occasionally makes offhand remarks like these that are meant to be taken only half seriously
                      Is he only targetting the message at people who know him?

                      I doubt it. Therefore my point was that in the context of the whole message, and the fact that the comment was delivered right at the start, in the current market atmosphere, could make many viewers who DON'T know him and DON'T understand any of the background or the humour related to the comment - click away - therefore missing the main message of the videos which so many here are pointing out is a valuable one.

                      Regardless of how far removed his original intentions were from bait and switch, as others have confirmed here, that is the impression that many (who I would assume are his target market) were left with.

                      That was all I meant.
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                      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Jose Delgado
        Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

        hehe, he said "sucks ass"

        .
        Hahaha...

        You and Vince make me laugh every time ya post!

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        • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
          You guys must not be old farts like me...lol

          I think Jim was trying to make a joke with the
          line about not changing the names to protect the
          innocent.

          It comes from the old Dragnet TV show... at the beginning
          of each show Jack Webb (Sgt. Joe Friday) used to say...

          "Everything you're about to see is true. Only the names have
          been changed to protect the innocent."

          So.. I don't think Jim was copping out or dropping the ball.
          I think it was just a clumsy attempt at humor.

          Here's some Joe Friday for you...

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          If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
            I smell another product launch... classic Mass Control "Us v.s. them" video. "Hey I'm the good guy, look over here..."

            Even though Jim does put out good products, at least the one's I've bought from him in the past but he hasn't come out with anything in a while... (as far as I know anyway)

            It's the ice-burg theory in sheep's clothing!

            Anyway, Jim means well and has never really sucked so other than the "Hey look at me", I don't have a problem with the videos.

            Mike Hill
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