Mass Control 2.0 on Ebay

321 replies
Hello Warriors,

I just read the thread about Ebay shafting sellers in 2009. That is a timely post for me and I don't want to lose out because of Ebay.

I purchased Mass Control 2.0 when it launched and because of time and financial constraints, I have decided that I would like try to sell it on Ebay. Hopefully there are people who are still interested in buying it.

I don't know all of the rules and guidelines on the best way to do this--like do you start low and hope the bidding will go up high enough or do you start it at the lowest amount you are willing to accept? Of course, I would like to recoup as much of the cost as possible.

Does anyone have any helpful suggestions?

Thanks!

Terrie
#control #ebay #mass #suggestions
  • Profile picture of the author Droopy Dawg
    No real suggestions to get around the "eBay screw"... all I can do is wish you well on your auction.

    Maybe someone here will buy it from you... there are lots of folks here that mentioned getting their hands on it when it launches again... you might wanna wait a week or so before you put it up on eBay.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    Hi Terri

    You may be better asking your question on the ebay forums. I'd also check the TOS of reselling the product from the original vendor as well

    Good luck
    Kim

    Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

    Hello Warriors,

    I just read the thread about Ebay shafting sellers in 2009. That is a timely post for me and I don't want to lose out because of Ebay.

    I purchased Mass Control 2.0 when it launched and because of time and financial constraints, I have decided that I would like try to sell it on Ebay. Hopefully there are people who are still interested in buying it.

    I don't know all of the rules and guidelines on the best way to do this--like do you start low and hope the bidding will go up high enough or do you start it at the lowest amount you are willing to accept? Of course, I would like to recoup as much of the cost as possible.

    Does anyone have any helpful suggestions?

    Thanks!

    Terrie
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  • Profile picture of the author mikkosant
    I'd highly suggest checking out this guys site. I have purchased several of his products and they are top notch. His website is full of free information.

    Free Articles and Information for eBay and Home Internet Sellers
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  • Profile picture of the author Tony Vercetti
    If it is a physical product and not a download, then it should be fine, however it depends on the actual product's TOS whether or not you are allowed to sell it.
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    • Profile picture of the author mandyg33
      Originally Posted by Tony Vercetti View Post

      If it is a physical product and not a download, then it should be fine, however it depends on the actual product's TOS whether or not you are allowed to sell it.
      I don't see why you couldn't sell it on ebay.. it's a physical product
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    As far as the package itself, it's definitely a physical product. I've only watched the first DVD and read the four day booklet, so everything is in excellent shape.

    Where would I find the TOS for the product? Is it in the packaging itself or do I have to contact their support team?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Terrie,

    Advertise it here:

    Warrior Forum Classified Ads

    You're FAR more likely to get your asking price.

    Steve
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    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    Before putting a high-ticket item on ebay, I would sell some lower-priced items first, both to learn how it works and to build up some feedback. If your feedback is zero and you're selling $1000+ item, many people won't buy since that looks suspicious.

    Also try bidding on and buying some low-priced items.
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    • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
      Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

      Also try bidding on and buying some low-priced items.
      Be careful with that tactic. If you buy a few low-priced items, then turn around and start listing things for sale, Ebay may mistake it as "feedback manipulation" and suspend your account, cancelling your auctions in the process. I've had it happen to me before, not the least bit fun trying to get your account back.

      edit: On the subject of refunds.. I can see both sides of that argument. If I bought something I knew I couldn't afford, of course it would be irresponsible and unethical for me to ask for a refund. But what if I ran into circumstances that I couldn't have possibly predicted? And if the seller is offering a no questions asked refund, then any buyer is well within their rights to return the product and get their money back. As far as me personally, I'm far from a "serial refunder", there's only been one time I ever asked for a refund and the whole experience caused me to gain a lot of respect for a marketing "guru" who I don't even really know (other than through his products). I might as well tell the story...

      A few years back, a well-known marketing "guru" who I'll refer to here as M. launched a high-ticket product named after a certain winged insect and a popular movie of the time. I ordered it, and at the time could easily afford it and would have been able to put it into action almost immediately. Unfortunately there was a shipping delay, and while I was waiting for my product to be shipped, my health and financial situation took a turn for the worse (for those who must know, I was diagnosed with cancer). I explained my situation to M. through his private members-only forum. I was issued a full and immediate refund. Not only that, I asked M. to remove me from his private forum since I was no longer his customer. He invited me to stay, soak up whatever knowledge I could and share and contribute whatever I could. To this day I rarely visit that forum, but I'm still a member there and still very thankful to M. for inviting me to stay. Mostly because of the way he handled the situation, and because of the results I've seen from other people who have used his product, I will most definitely be purchasing it when he relaunches the new version (and thankfully, at a much lower price) and I'll continue to do business with him in the future. He may have lost a $1000+ sale but he gained a life-long customer. Which one is more valuable?
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
        Originally Posted by stevenh512 View Post

        Be careful with that tactic. If you buy a few low-priced items, then turn around and start listing things for sale, Ebay may mistake it as "feedback manipulation" and suspend your account, cancelling your auctions in the process. I've had it happen to me before, not the least bit fun trying to get your account back.
        That shows the stupidity of ebay, then.

        Unless you are running some conspiracy, there is no such thing as "feedback manipulation" - ebay is the one that came up with feedback in the first place, so this is a ridiculous concept.

        It's just common sense that you would start with lower-priced items.
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        • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
          Dude ... havent ya heard? Ebay is ridiculous now. Not like the good old days. Lots of scammers and of course gotta perform a little song and dance for the shareholders dontcha know. Their corp governance is soooo over the top and their Gestappo tactics are just plain crazed.

          There is no logic at all with them - they grew too fast and too big for their own good.

          They just had to go public ... If they could just buy back all their public shares - it might be a great place to trade once again.

          Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

          That shows the stupidity of ebay, then.

          Unless you are running some conspiracy, there is no such thing as "feedback manipulation" - ebay is the one that came up with feedback in the first place, so this is a ridiculous concept.

          It's just common sense that you would start with lower-priced items.
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        • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
          Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

          That shows the stupidity of ebay, then.

          Unless you are running some conspiracy, there is no such thing as "feedback manipulation" - ebay is the one that came up with feedback in the first place, so this is a ridiculous concept.

          It's just common sense that you would start with lower-priced items.
          What makes it worse is the fact that in low-price auctions that they consider "feedback manipulation" it's almost always the buyer who gets punished for it, not the seller. I thought the whole point of Ebay from a buyer's perspective is to try to get the best price you can for whatever it is you want to buy. If Ebay feels the prices is too low and it's a form of "feedback manipulation" then doesn't it make sense that setting the minimum bid/buy now price is the seller's responsibility and not the buyer's?

          Unfortunately that argument didn't work too well for me when Ebay hit me with the "feedback manipulation" thing a little over a year ago. They didn't want to hear anything about the seller (who is paying fees to list their auctions) being responsible for setting the prices, I was the "cheat" and that's all there was to it. It didn't matter that I was buying things that I actually intended to use or resell, or that the sellers were the ones listing them for ridiculously cheap prices. I don't even want to go into all the hoops I had to jump through to finally get my account back, it was ridiculous and even though I did get my account back I haven't done any business on Ebay (and only the occasional PayPal transaction) since then.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    Thanks for all of the suggestions everyone.

    To put it on Warrior Forum Classified Ads is $20. Is there a fee once it is sold as well?
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Hi Terrie,

      There are no additional fees after the sale!

      Have a Great Day!
      Michael

      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      Thanks for all of the suggestions everyone.

      To put it on Warrior Forum Classified Ads is $20. Is there a fee once it is sold as well?
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        I wouldn't sell it on eBay...there are a lot of bootleg copies selling for a few hundred dollars. You are better off just returning it.
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  • Profile picture of the author DonDavis
    You've pretty much already "listed" it for sale on the WF just by making this post. Why not just give it a week and see if anybody nibbles on this thread?
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  • Profile picture of the author Craig Fenton
    Hi Terrie:

    I hope you had a great weekend. If possible before you make the decision to sell the item would it be worth trying to get through another segment or two (if not more)? There could be information that you get to early on in the course that may be useful at a later date when the time allows.

    As for the selling of the item. Decide what the lowest price including shipping, insurance, and postage you would be content with. Make sure only you know the answer. To protect yourself since it is a one of a kind item the priority mail will give you best service, insurance protects you from it being lost in the post office, and delivery confirmation gives you proof the customer received it. Have the outside of the shipping envelope marked "Fragile." Is it possible that the Warrior Forum would be a better road to travel than EBAY?

    You will have buyers since there was a demand for the product!

    Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kris Turner
    Why don't you just send it back for a refund?
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    • Profile picture of the author Sylvan Noel
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Gilbert
        Originally Posted by Sylvan Noel View Post

        I do not believe reselling the item is allowed. Please check into that before you get into a lot of trouble.

        Have you checked for a money back guarante of some sort?
        A lot of trouble? That's a bit silly. It's a physical product. How can you stop someone from reselling a physical product?

        On another note, there ARE a lot of bootleg copies on eBay, so make sure you verify in the auction that your is not one of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    The reselling we're talking about here isn't like having PLR or
    MRR... she purchased a physical product.. no different than a
    car or color TV. She's now done with it. She has every right
    to sell that physical product.

    Tsnyder
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  • Profile picture of the author Sid Kaplan
    I would think your best approach is to take Kern up on his refund offer. Using eBay is not that difficult and you have a physical product so you can sell it, BUT as some have pointed out you may take a big hit on what you will get for it.

    DonDavis had a good suggestion. You have already made known your desire to sell it in this thread. Wait a few days and see if you get some offers or a PM.

    Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    I do not have any complaints about the product, so I don't feel good about returning it because my situation has changed. A few people have PM'd me with questions, so I'm going to wait and see how that turns out before I do anything. Unless I hear otherwise, I am going with "It's a physical product and I can sell it if I want."

    Thank you so much for your replies!
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    • Profile picture of the author davebo
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
        Originally Posted by davebo View Post

        Are you serious? Why would you feel bad about taking the full refund? Most of those refunds read that you can refund for any reason. Trust me, these guys wouldn't give you the same type of consideration.
        Can somebody say... douchebag?
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        • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
          Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

          Can somebody say... douchebag?
          Douchebag. What do I win?
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
            Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

            Douchebag. What do I win?
            Free Easy Video Sales for you sir!

            Email Ryan at jmosupport at gmail.com and he'll hook you up. Just tell him it was from this thread!
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              douchebag. - anything for runnerup?
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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                douchebag. - anything for runnerup?
                Another fanboy!

                Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Originally Posted by davebo View Post

        Are you serious? Why would you feel bad about taking the full refund? Most of those refunds read that you can refund for any reason. Trust me, these guys wouldn't give you the same type of consideration.
        Davebo, are you serious?

        The lady is saying she's happy with the product and she feels it would be unethical to ask for a refund.

        Like many people, I have bought products I am not using. That's my fault, not the sellers'. I have asked for a refund only 3 times in 3 years because the products were either crap or the sales page misleading.

        Encouraging someone to ask for a refund because they don't have time to use the product or are strapped for cash is not the Warrior Way.

        I hope Frank Kern comes in here and makes her an offer to show people how a gentleman behaves and really rub it in.

        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          Davebo, are you serious?

          The lady is saying she's happy with the product and she feels it would be unethical to ask for a refund.

          Like many people, I have bought products I am not using. That's my fault, not the sellers'. I have asked for a refund only 3 times in 3 years because the products were either crap or the sales page misleading.

          Encouraging someone to ask for a refund because they don't have time to use the product or are strapped for cash is not the Warrior Way.

          I hope Frank Kern comes in here and makes her an offer to show people how a gentleman behaves and really rub it in.

          Martin
          Now there's the kind of guy I like to do biz with. Someone who actually owns up to their end of the bargain.

          Imagine that!
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          • Profile picture of the author davebo
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            • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

              I think you should be more concerned with that rather than figuring out how you can drop frank kern's name in everything you write.
              I wrote a love poem about him yesterday.

              Want to hear it?
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

              Of course you'd want to do business with him, because he's a kissup just like you
              Wow. I have just learned a new American expression.

              Kissup - someone who thinks people should respect the ethical concerns of others.

              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                Has this place always been this hostile?

                My final thoughts on this thread...

                It isn't unethical to return something per the return policy. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with what she is doing...I applaud her for it. However, I don't think anyone thinks she shouldn't stand up for her own ideas of morality. The issues arose when the labels started getting thrown around.

                We're all adults here and refunds are the price of doing business. Hell, just ask Radio Shack. They'll let you return just about anything as long as you got some tape and the original packaging.

                As a marketer, it sucks to have a product returned, but it is going to happen. Since when did everything come 2nd after the almighty dollar?
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                • Profile picture of the author davebo
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                  • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                    Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                    Most people are just reacting this way because it's frank kern.
                    Who gives a shit about whether it's Frank Kern or not?

                    davebo,

                    There is a such thing as a 'code of honor'. Of course, she can request a refund for any reason...

                    But I believe in this:

                    Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

                    But those of us with a conscience don't refund because of our own negligence. We take it on the chin and man up to our mistakes.
                    I can't tell you how many times I've had to man up in similar situations.

                    I would feel like a filthy rat if I requested a refund for Mass Control or any other product--just because I was having a financial crisis.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                      Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

                      Who gives a shit about whether it's Frank Kern or not?

                      davebo,

                      There is a such thing as a 'code of honor'. Of course, she can request a refund for any reason...

                      But I believe in this:



                      I can't tell you how many times I've had to man up in similar situations.

                      I would feel like a filthy rat if I requested a refund for Mass Control or any other product--just because I was having a financial crisis.

                      Would you feel any different if you hadn't opened it yet? I'm just curious.
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                      • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

                        Would you feel any different if you hadn't opened it yet? I'm just curious.
                        Um... it's possible--but, most likely no.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                          Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

                          Um... it's possible--but, most likely no.

                          So you'd never return an item that you couldn't afford to a retail store?


                          Let's say you bought some furniture because the salesman had a good pitch. They deliver it to your house and you realize that maybe you made a bad decision. Would you feel bad about returning the furniture?
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                          • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                            Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post


                            Let's say you bought some furniture because the salesman had a good pitch. They deliver it to your house and you realize that maybe you made a bad decision. Would you feel bad about returning the furniture?
                            Trust me... I see your point. And, to answer your question--no--I would not feel bad for the salesperson, for returning the furniture at all. I would be ashamed of myself for making an ill-advised decision and misusing a refund policy to bail myself out.
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                            • Profile picture of the author davebo
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                              • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                                This isn't even an argument I want to catch myself up in, but geez...I just don't get it.

                                Kern says you can return it if you wanted to make 7 mil and only made 1 mil...yet its unethical to return it if you can't afford it.

                                The lady got screwed out of a bonus, and didn't make any money with the program. JMO has made a gracious offer that I hope works out for her.

                                Sometimes shit happens...if her house burnt down, would you still be saying the same thing?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
                    Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                    Most people are just reacting this way because it's frank kern. If it were some other putz marketer, they'd say that he should be prepared for any refund if that's what the terms were.

                    I think the people in this thread need to learn what "unethical" actually means.
                    I think you hit the nail on the head.

                    I also think, if this had been Joe Nobody's $2000 course, the same people who are saying it is unethical to ask for a refund would be saying Joe's course must be crap if the lady could not use it to earn back her $2000.

                    Of course no one dares say that in this case (at least not so far- I have a few pages to go in reading this thread).
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                    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                      This is almost unbelievable...

                      After pinching myself a few times--I realize that this is really happening.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                        Seems to me, there's an easy solution.

                        Frank Kern should give Terrie a refund. It doesn't matter whether she asked for one or not, or whether she deserves one. He should reward Terrie for being an upstanding customer.

                        My suggestion isn't based on "morals", it's a bottom line business decision. He gives the refund, knowing Terrie needs the money, tells her to keep the product, and he comes off as a hero, building trust and goodwill he couldn't get in any other way. And he has another loyal backer that will support him in the future.

                        And Kern wins the respect of many on this forum. Terrie's in a position of having to choose between her own moral fortitude and her personal finances, a tough decision without a clear-cut answer. Kern can eliminate this decision.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                          It's really sad how this forum turns issues into things they are not.

                          The OP already stated her intentions, and many of you are twisting it into something it is not.

                          And yeah, I called Davebo a douchebag. Why? Because he acts like that in numerous threads. It's a habitual thing with him. Just like Blackhatcat. Find any thread with Frank in it, and you are likely to see him bashing him.

                          It's all too common.

                          And then someone like me comes around and tries to promote a shred of decency and others try to twist it like I'm the bad guy?

                          Well I can take the insults.

                          And yes, I am very opinionated.

                          It's plain stupid and I shouldn't even talk to many members around here. I'm going to try my best to pretend they just don't exist and focus on those that are concerned about actually making honorable money.

                          And as far as honorable money is concerned...

                          Some even imply that it's wrong to be too good of a seller. What? Are you kidding me? That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in a marketing forum.

                          But here's the real hard core truth about selling to people who aren't ready for Mass Control...

                          I turned down 6 sales, yes $6000 from people who were going to buy Mass Control but I honestly told them they were not ready. I didn't feel morally right having them spend $2000 on something that they may not be able to implement right away and considering the position they were in.

                          So anyone who thinks the big bad guru's are out to just get your money are so full of it, I don't even know what to say.

                          A group of you have a lot of growing up to do.

                          No one, and I mean no one in this thread was debating whether or not the woman should be entitled to the refund. Of course she is. And considering Frank banked over 5 MILLION on the promo I'm pretty confident a refund isn't going to make him go broke.

                          And if the affiliate did change up the offer on the bonus, then shame on him. Maybe he should compensate his commission.

                          Nobody is disagreeing with that.

                          My beef just comes from the culture that tends to permeate throughout the Warrior Forum and many that contribute here.

                          I have lot's of great friends in this place, and appreciate all the PM's I get from you folks thanking me for sticking up for what's right. I know most don't like to get into battles in public, and don't want to take the hits. No problem, I tend to do that for those that don't want to speak up.

                          But obviously I don't speak for all.

                          I just try to implement what is right.

                          And right now, I don't think the Warrior Forum is right for me. Way too many unscrupulous marketers lacking decent ethics and basic common sense.

                          Go ahead, twist all my words around and make me seem like the big bad defender of the guru's.

                          I'm off to make a smoothie, and a few grand!

                          Peace

                          PS: Terri, Tim, offer still stands.

                          I hope both of you get the best of out Frank's stuff, and the most you can from the Warrior Forum.
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                          • Profile picture of the author davebo
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                            • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                              Yeah, shame on people for wanting to exercise a right that's laid out in bold on your salespages right above the buy button.

                              If you're so concerned with this, then why don't you just remove the 100% guarantee. That way you can be sure that people that buy your products will have the motivation to stick with it..since they can't get a refund.

                              Unless you're willing to do that, I think you should keep it quiet about morals, ethics, and "when a deal was a deal". Because it sounds like you want to experience higher sales associated with a refund policy, but none of the downside.
                              DUDE,

                              With all due respect...

                              You are completely missing the entire point. You are lost in the Bermuda Triangle right now
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                              • Profile picture of the author davebo
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                                • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                                  Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                                  No, I'm not missing the point. I am just rejecting the entire premise becuase you guys don't understand what the definition of "Business Ethics" is. A violation of business ethics would be price fixing, bait and switch, deceptive marketing, etc. It's not "asking for a refund when you are technically entitled to one".

                                  I'd accept a general comment if you said something like "the ease of refunding prevents people from implementing a plan to make money". But a violation of business ethics? hahaha. That's truly laughable.

                                  If anything, it's a violation of business ethics to the buyer by not asking for the refund, because that is affecting the shareholders and stakeholders in your company...even if it's just you and your family.
                                  I feel like we are speaking two entirely different languages now.

                                  I'm off to read a book now... hopefully I can replenish some of the brainpower that has been hijacked from me in this thread.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author davebo
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                                    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                                      Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                                      I think that ship has sailed.
                                      Finally we agree...

                                      Even if it has to be at my own expense
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                                    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                                      We should start an Internet Marketing Fight Club and play it out just like the movie.

                                      Meet up at offline spots to talk about this same shit face to face.

                                      If these types of debates, which happen often in this forum, were happening in person,
                                      hands would get thrown and it could get ugly.

                                      I just bought Internet Marketing Fight Club and it's a live site too - LOL

                                      So, who's down? Let's see how tough you are and if you would say in person what you say on here while sitting safe behind your computer
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                                      • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                                        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

                                        We should start an Internet Marketing Fight Club and play it out just like the movie.

                                        Meet up at offline spots to talk about this same shit face to face.

                                        If these types of debates, which happen often in this forum, were happening in person,
                                        hands would get thrown and it could get ugly.

                                        I just bought Internet Marketing Fight Club and it's a live site too - LOL

                                        So, who's down? Let's see how tough you are and if you would say in person what you say on here while sitting safe behind your computer
                                        Dude,

                                        Count me in.

                                        I will fly to any location in the U.S. to participate in a bout.

                                        That would be one hell of a marketing video.

                                        Marc

                                        p.s. I am dead serious
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                                          I'm down Jason! Sounds like a blast
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              • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                Wow. I have just learned a new American expression.

                Kissup - someone who thinks people should respect the ethical concerns of others.

                Martin
                Here's another word for you: hypocrite.
                Why that word? Because it seems those ethical concerns only flow one way for some.
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                • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                  Originally Posted by blackhatcat View Post

                  Here's another word for you: hypocrite.
                  Why that word? Because it seems those ethical concerns only flow one way for some.
                  Blackhatcat,

                  Thank you for your civilized input.

                  Yet another person who jumps half-cocked into a thread without reading the original OP (or maybe you read it and didn't understand it).

                  Davebo,

                  And thank you again for your fanboy comments.

                  FYI I don't always see eye to eye with Jason Moffat. And I do think he was a bit OTT with some of his comments but that doesn't mean he was wrong in principle.

                  Do you know something? There are a lot of decent marketers who avoid the WF these days because of people like you two.

                  Martin
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      I do not have any complaints about the product, so I don't feel good about returning it because my situation has changed. A few people have PM'd me with questions, so I'm going to wait and see how that turns out before I do anything. Unless I hear otherwise, I am going with "It's a physical product and I can sell it if I want."

      Thank you so much for your replies!
      Thanks for saying that Terrie.

      I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that.

      As for selling it on Ebay, I've personally reported sellers on Ebay and they have lost their accounts for doing so. However, they were selling bootlegs, not original copies.

      I think it's your right to sell the product if you choose.

      I won't even comment on those that are suggesting you refund. Instead I'll just add them to the blacklist of folks I'd rather not do business with.
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      • Profile picture of the author askloz
        I don't want to start a war here mate,

        But If frank says if for any reason, no questions asked, one is not happy, or one is not in the position to carry out the tasks, then ask for a refund.

        Why would anyone be a douchbag, or an arse hole or what ever, for asking?

        What is so morally wrong about asking for a refund if it's on the table?

        If there's a slice of bread on the table are you not going to take it if you're hungry?

        Terrie maybe in a state of financial difficulty, and didn't realise that the awesome course Frank laid out in MC 2.0 was just not her cup of tea at the time.

        I signed up for the info millionaire, was on it for 3 months, then canceled, ok, canceling is a bit different from refunding, but all the same, it's almost the same thing, since he wont be getting any more $49 monthly's out of me, I figured since I have MC 2.0 now, that I paid in full, that it'll do the job just nicely and info millionaire couldn't come close to the tactics in MC 2.0

        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Thanks for saying that Terrie.

        I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that.

        As for selling it on Ebay, I've personally reported sellers on Ebay and they have lost their accounts for doing so. However, they were selling bootlegs, not original copies.

        I think it's your right to sell the product if you choose.

        I won't even comment on those that are suggesting you refund. Instead I'll just add them to the blacklist of folks I'd rather not do business with.
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        • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
          Originally Posted by askloz View Post

          What is so morally wrong about asking for a refund if it's on the table?
          In this case, it would most definitely be morally wrong for her to take advantage of the refund. If you can't see that--I doubt that anyone would be able to convince you otherwise.

          I signed up for the info millionaire, was on it for 3 months, then canceled, ok, canceling is a bit different from refunding, but all the same, it's almost the same thing, since he wont be getting any more $49 monthly's out of me, I figured since I have MC 2.0 now, that I paid in full, that it'll do the job just nicely and info millionaire couldn't come close to the tactics in MC 2.0
          FYI: Canceling a monthly membership is not 'almost the same thing' as taking advantage of a refund policy... it's not even in the same ballpark.
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          • Profile picture of the author davebo
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

              I'm surprised that more people aren't realizing how idiotic their arguments are.
              That's funny. I was thinking the same thing about your argument.

              Financial hardship is an acceptable refund reason.
              What? You're joking right?

              All the sudden the moral police are deciding which refunds are valid and which aren't. hahaha.
              Yep! But, I consider myself to be more of a moral P.I. rather than police.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
          Originally Posted by askloz View Post

          But If frank says if for any reason, no questions asked, one is not happy, or one is not in the position to carry out the tasks, then ask for a refund.

          Why would anyone be a douchbag, or an arse hole or what ever, for asking?

          What is so morally wrong about asking for a refund if it's on the table?
          I agree, and it says a lot about some people using names like "douchebag" when talking about a customer returning a product which offered a money-back guarantee.

          Why does the product even have a guarantee if that is the attitude? What is the point of a guarantee, if not to let the customer send the product back?

          If this is really the seller's attitude, he should just say "All sales final- no refunds" clearly on the sales letter.

          We *are* talking about returning a physical product for a refund, not asking for a refund for a downloaded product that you intend to keep using.

          I've taken products back to stores for refunds, and did not get this anti-customer attitude. As long as I had the receipt, was within the refund deadline, and brought it back undamaged, there was no hassle at all, and they really didn't seem to care what my reason was... I certainly didn't have to claim the product was defective, just that I wanted to return it.

          Just to make it clear, I'm not talking about buying and refunding things to get a "free rental" of them, like the person who buys a suit just to wear to an event and returns it, never having intended to keep it. I'm talking about returning things when I later decided to get something else instead, or changed my mind, or even realized I already had the item.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Thanks for saying that Terrie.

        I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that.

        As for selling it on Ebay, I've personally reported sellers on Ebay and they have lost their accounts for doing so. However, they were selling bootlegs, not original copies.

        I think it's your right to sell the product if you choose.

        I won't even comment on those that are suggesting you refund. Instead I'll just add them to the blacklist of folks I'd rather not do business with.
        JMo, I've always been a fan of yours, but really? How can you recommend that someone takes a huge financial hit if they can't afford it? What is the refund policy for then? How is it any different than if she watched it all and decided that it wasn't worth the 2k for her at this time?

        If I buy something from the mall, and my situation changes and I can't afford it, I have the right to return it. It is the same thing here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
        Originally Posted by askloz View Post

        I don't want to start a war here mate,

        But If frank says if for any reason, no questions asked, one is not happy, or one is not in the position to carry out the tasks, then ask for a refund.

        Why would anyone be a douchbag, or an arse hole or what ever, for asking?

        What is so morally wrong about asking for a refund if it's on the table?

        If there's a slice of bread on the table are you not going to take it if you're hungry?

        Terrie maybe in a state of financial difficulty, and didn't realise that the awesome course Frank laid out in MC 2.0 was just not her cup of tea at the time.

        I signed up for the info millionaire, was on it for 3 months, then canceled, ok, canceling is a bit different from refunding, but all the same, it's almost the same thing, since he wont be getting any more $49 monthly's out of me, I figured since I have MC 2.0 now, that I paid in full, that it'll do the job just nicely and info millionaire couldn't come close to the tactics in MC 2.0
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Thanks for saying that Terrie.

        I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that.

        As for selling it on Ebay, I've personally reported sellers on Ebay and they have lost their accounts for doing so. However, they were selling bootlegs, not original copies.

        I think it's your right to sell the product if you choose.

        I won't even comment on those that are suggesting you refund. Instead I'll just add them to the blacklist of folks I'd rather not do business with.
        Of course you have to keep the "no refund" guru's a guru spirit.

        If she do the refund and you say "Yes take the refund" - instantly you have devalued the material for the next few launches of Frank Kern and yours.

        Not only that, but also decreased the value of other gurus launches.

        Just wanted to provided the psychology behind Jason Moffats stants. So the common newbie can learn.

        Nothing wrong with telling it like it is, you know.

        Peace.

        Sry, my english real week.
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        • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
          Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

          Of course you have to keep the "no refund" guru's a guru spirit.

          If she do the refund and you say "Yes take the refund" - instantly you have devalued the material for the next few launches of Frank Kern and yours.

          Not only that, but also decreased the value of other gurus launches.

          Just wanted to provided the psychology behind Jason Moffats stants. So the common newbie can learn.

          Nothing wrong with telling it like it is, you know.

          Peace.

          Sry, my english real week.
          I had to quote my own words, it's sad to seeing gurus right hands, inner circle guys being so biased. And afraid to give a refund.

          I guess the pie is never large enough, right Jason?

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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Thanks for saying that Terrie.

        I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that.
        What's totally pathetic is promising to deliver something that, a year later, still hasn't been delivered, despite sending an email to those people 6 weeks ago that they would be told in two weeks how to claim their copy.

        6 weeks later...still waiting. So please, spare us the moral high ground shtick.

        As such, I have no problem recommending that the lady get a refund. One, if true, her reason is more acceptable than most, and two, screw Frank, or anyone else for that matter. If you've come upon hard times and it comes down to eating, or John Doe guru millionaire losing a sale..well, let's just say, I'm gonna be eating. It's not personal, it's common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    If she couldn't afford it, she shouldn't of bought it.

    Simple as that.

    If she felt it wasn't worth the price, then by all means refund it.

    But that is not her complaint.

    She is a responsible buyer, and owns up to her purchase unlike many of the people around here.

    And Nathan to be honest, I've been seeing you bad mouth Frank quite a bit here in the forum and I'm really hesitant to offer you any coaching or consulting until after the refund period is over as I'm worried you may just be another serial refunder as well.

    I hope I'm wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      If she couldn't afford it, she shouldn't of bought it.
      Fair enough, but Frank shouldn't of being so good at creating desire, the need to know what it's all about.

      Simple as that, eh!

      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post


      If she felt it wasn't worth the price, then by all means refund it.
      That's not that Franks refund policy states!

      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      But that is not her complaint.

      She is a responsible buyer, and owns up to her purchase unlike many of people around here.
      Who said it had to be a complaint to get a refund?


      Come on bro, be a bit more understanding.

      Sure, I understand where you're coming from, it's a right ole biatch when ppl just snoop in to see what you got then ask for a refund.

      BUT, if Frank policy is a no fuss, no hassle, no questions ask guarantee, then that's what it is.

      And it's not going to look good on Frank if he turned around and said.

      "Oh, I said S.M.S.M.F Now, I didn't say you could ask for a refund if my product was good, even if you can't do the course, go F yourself, you're getting nuffin, suffer and control your spending next time"...

      That's gonna look good on Frank innit and a great marketing tactic.. NOT!...LOL

      And this does have a good side to it.

      It looks better on Frank for refunding, and if and when Terrie is in a better position to buy again and not in the situation she's in right now, she may buy Franks product again, just for being understanding and down to earth about it - wouldn't ya of thought so?
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
        Originally Posted by askloz View Post

        Fair enough, but Frank shouldn't of being so good at creating desire, the need to know what it's all about.

        Simple as that, eh!



        That's not that Franks refund policy states!



        Who said it had to be a complaint to get a refund?


        Come on bro, be a bit more understanding.

        Sure, I understand where you're coming from, it's a right ole biatch when ppl just snoop in to see what you got then ask for a refund.

        BUT, if Frank policy is a no fuss, no hassle, no questions ask guarantee, then that's what it is.

        And it's not going to look good on Frank if he turned around and said.

        "Oh, I said S.M.S.M.F Now, I didn't say you could ask for a refund if my product was good, even if you can't do the course, go F yourself, you're getting nuffin, suffer and control your spending next time"...

        That's gonna look good on Frank innit and a great marketing tactic.. NOT!...LOL

        And this does have a good side to it.

        It looks better on Frank for refunding, and if and when Terrie is in a better position to buy again and not in the situation she's in right now, she may buy Franks product again, just for being understanding and down to earth about it - wouldn't ya of thought so?
        Frank will refund anyone for any reason.

        No one is disputing that.

        But some of you folks that are so quick to pull the refund trigger just because of your own woes tarnishes everything marketers do.

        And you should know this.

        Yes, the refund policy is for any reason.

        But those of us with a conscience don't refund because of our own negligence. We take it on the chin and man up to our mistakes.

        Nuff said.

        Man up!
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        • Profile picture of the author askloz
          For F- sakes. she was in a spot of difficulty...

          so freakin what she asked for a refund...

          get over it.
          it's none of your business!

          And who said I wasn't man enough to man-up about my mistakes? man you got a nerve for trying to assume things about me that you know NOTHING about!

          get a life man, you're starting to really tick me off!


          Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

          Frank will refund anyone for any reason.

          No one is disputing that.

          But some of you folks that are so quick to pull the refund trigger just because of your own woes tarnishes everything marketers do.

          And you should know this.

          Yes, the refund policy is for any reason.

          But those of us with a conscience don't refund because of our own negligence. We take it on the chin and man up to our mistakes.

          Nuff said.

          Man up!
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Loz,

        I don't think it's about whether or not Frank will honour the refund. It's about preaching the mentality that you should get a refund on a product you've liked and used just because you are short of cash.

        It's not illegal but, as Jason says, threads like this help you decide who you would do business with.

        I feel sorry for the OP because she is totally blameless for the turn this thread has taken.

        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          Loz,
          I feel sorry for the OP because she is totally blameless for the turn this thread has taken.

          Martin
          I think it kind of makes her look like an outstanding and reputable Warrior. Someone I'd be inclined to help out if need be.
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      • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
        Originally Posted by askloz View Post

        Fair enough, but Frank shouldn't of being so good at creating desire, the need to know what it's all about.
        He shouldn't have been so good at creating desire? WHAAT?!!!!

        Now he's at fault for producing a sales letter that creates desire. Hell, I'm screwed! I'm off to re-write all my sales pages then.

        NOT!!!

        Jeeez.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      If she couldn't afford it, she shouldn't of bought it.

      Simple as that.

      If she felt it wasn't worth the price, then by all means refund it.

      But that is not her complaint.

      She is a responsible buyer, and owns up to her purchase unlike many of the people around here.

      And Nathan to be honest, I've been seeing you bad mouth Frank quite a bit here in the forum and I'm really hesitant to offer you any coaching or consulting until after the refund period is over as I'm worried you may just be another serial refunder as well.

      I hope I'm wrong.
      Jason, are you serious? The only badmouthing I've said was that I was disappointed. If that's badmouthing then we've certainly got a clash of ideas.

      In regards to being a serial refunder...returning something once doesn't make someone a serial refunder. Besides that, I'd be honest enough not to accept coaching if I returned the product. This IM world is a small one and I'm not a thief. I'm not sure if there is an accusation in that post, but I'll pretend there isn't.

      Now, to the matter at hand...would you really rather see someone go into financial ruin (if that is the case here) or even close, just so someone can keep a sale? If someone bought one of my products and they returned it because they decided they couldn't afford it, I'd understand. If they did it often, that is different, but geez...you can't hold everyone to the knife like that. I'd rather see her do well and recover, so that she can buy more of my stuff down the road.

      I'm rather shocked by your response here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        Jason, are you serious? The only badmouthing I've said was that I was disappointed. If that's badmouthing then we've certainly got a clash of ideas.

        In regards to being a serial refunder...returning something once doesn't make someone a serial refunder. Besides that, I'd be honest enough not to accept coaching if I returned the product. This IM world is a small one and I'm not a thief. I'm not sure if there is an accusation in that post, but I'll pretend there isn't.

        Now, to the matter at hand...would you really rather see someone go into financial ruin (if that is the case here) or even close, just so someone can keep a sale? If someone bought one of my products and they returned it because they decided they couldn't afford it, I'd understand. If they did it often, that is different, but geez...you can't hold everyone to the knife like that. I'd rather see her do well and recover, so that she can buy more of my stuff down the road.

        I'm rather shocked by your response here.

        Of course I don't want to see the gal go into financial ruins.

        It just appears she has better business ethics then many around here, and I applaud that.

        It takes a strong person to do what she's doing, and I for one respect that.

        And I nor Frank would ever deny her a refund if need be.

        (PS: No accusation in the post. Was just worried I was going to shell out some hard earned work and not get compensated. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong. My intent is to help anyone who is serious about applying the strategies).
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  • Profile picture of the author Tenzo
    I don't know how Frank's refund policy is worded. It may be that it is entirely ethical, and okay with Frank, if someone asks for a refund simply because they have changed their mind, or their situations have changed.

    That doesn't mean that the OP can't hold herself to a higher standard. She should be applauded for her willingness to follow her own ideals, regardless of the situation she is in.

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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    I'm sorry guys--I didn't mean to kick up such a fuss!

    So, here is another part of the equation. I purchased Frank's package in part because of the bonus that one of the gurus was giving. The way the bonus was set up, I was pretty sure that I would be able to make enough money to recoup my costs pretty quickly. Several days later I received an email from that person saying that he had decided "to replace the original bonus with something better."

    I am still relatively new at IM, so I wasn't really in a position to judge if his new bonus was better or not, but it is not what I originally thought I was getting. He did not ask if I preferred the second choice, but rather told me that was what he was doing.

    I also do not feel good about returning Frank's product because I don't think it's fair to the guru for losing out on his commission. He did provide a good bonus, even though it wasn't the original. I am not complaining about the bonus--I just expected that things would work out differently than they have.

    This additional factor is not at all Frank's fault, so he shouldn't have to bear the burden of my asking for a refund for what I think is actually a good product.

    Actually, that brings up another matter--what to do about the bonus if I actually do sell the product. Hmmm, I don't have any rich uncles that could just die and leave me some money.

    I'm starting to feel very silly about this thread!
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      That's a shady move...changing the bonus after people have purchased it...I'm not sure what to do about that...however, I think you are feeling guilty when you shouldn't be. The guy changed his bonus and you'd feel bad if he didn't get a commission? I need you as my customer.

      I just watched the sales video, and his language is pretty clear. Maybe you should watch it again and see what you think?

      Now, if you think it is a good product, does that mean you think it is worth 2k? If that is the case, then why aren't you putting it into action? What about the 4 day cash machine? Did you try finding others to use the emails on?

      There are a lot of ways you can make money with the course, but you won't make any money if you don't implement them. If you aren't going to return it, then I bet you'd make more money launching a product with MC then you would selling it on eBay. Just my .02
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      I'm sorry guys--I didn't mean to kick up such a fuss!

      So, here is another part of the equation. I purchased Frank's package in part because of the bonus that one of the gurus was giving. The way the bonus was set up, I was pretty sure that I would be able to make enough money to recoup my costs pretty quickly. Several days later I received an email from that person saying that he had decided "to replace the original bonus with something better."

      I am still relatively new at IM, so I wasn't really in a position to judge if his new bonus was better or not, but it is not what I originally thought I was getting. He did not ask if I preferred the second choice, but rather told me that was what he was doing.

      I also do not feel good about returning Frank's product because I don't think it's fair to the guru for losing out on his commission. He did provide a good bonus, even though it wasn't the original. I am not complaining about the bonus--I just expected that things would work out differently than they have.

      This additional factor is not at all Frank's fault, so he shouldn't have to bear the burden of my asking for a refund for what I think is actually a good product.

      Actually, that brings up another matter--what to do about the bonus if I actually do sell the product. Hmmm, I don't have any rich uncles that could just die and leave me some money.

      I'm starting to feel very silly about this thread!
      Terrie,

      Don't feel silly about the thread. And by all means, use up the bonus you got, even if you do sell the product. The guy will still get his commission.

      If you send me a PM, I'll also give you my bonus.

      All my products, plus I'll do a live chat with you on the phone to help you out.

      You seem like a nice lady and I'd like to see you do well.

      Take care

      Jason
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      • Profile picture of the author elliec
        Good on ya Jason for your offer to Terri although I don't entirely agree with you re: refunds. It is possible to buy something, delve into it and realize it's not for you. Sales letters and videos are meant to be persuasive and can often leave out critical info. In the case of the guru who moved the goalposts and changed his bonus offer....tsk tsk, he deserves to lose his commission if he didn't offer the customer the option of the original bonus. I can see both sides here and I also applaud Terri for her morals.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kris Turner
        Shock idea: Maybe no one in this thread is wrong.

        Frank offered a crazy guarantee (as he tends to) which gives any customer the right to return it for any reason (when you give that kind of guarantee, you're much more likely to sell people who are thinking about not buying due to things like lack of funds. That's the point of a crazy guarantee. You sell more and you refund more, but the extra sales generally outdo the extra refunds).

        The OP has every right to refund it, and no one should have any problem with her if she did that. Or, she can do what she's doing if that's her style.

        Man, these threads get out of hand fast!
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      • Profile picture of the author Chazzer
        Jason --

        That sounds like a great opportunity for Terrie and a nice ending for her. Makes me wish there were more ppl who were "kissups". The world would be a better place.
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    • Profile picture of the author davebo
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    • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
      Changing the bonus was naughty, I wonder how many other people bought because of the original one offered.

      If I'd bought through his link because of the original bonus then I'd expect it, and if I didn't receive it, then Frank would have known about it and I'd expect the commision he received from my purchase to be forfeited.

      If you had been more experienced Terrie that's what you could have done.

      Kim


      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      I'm sorry guys--I didn't mean to kick up such a fuss!

      So, here is another part of the equation. I purchased Frank's package in part because of the bonus that one of the gurus was giving. The way the bonus was set up, I was pretty sure that I would be able to make enough money to recoup my costs pretty quickly. Several days later I received an email from that person saying that he had decided "to replace the original bonus with something better."

      I am still relatively new at IM, so I wasn't really in a position to judge if his new bonus was better or not, but it is not what I originally thought I was getting. He did not ask if I preferred the second choice, but rather told me that was what he was doing.

      I also do not feel good about returning Frank's product because I don't think it's fair to the guru for losing out on his commission. He did provide a good bonus, even though it wasn't the original. I am not complaining about the bonus--I just expected that things would work out differently than they have.

      This additional factor is not at all Frank's fault, so he shouldn't have to bear the burden of my asking for a refund for what I think is actually a good product.

      Actually, that brings up another matter--what to do about the bonus if I actually do sell the product. Hmmm, I don't have any rich uncles that could just die and leave me some money.

      I'm starting to feel very silly about this thread!
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Having a no questions asked guarantee, is a huge selling point. So you have to pay the consequences when giving such a guarantee. If you have A Qualtiy product, then you'll never be hurt by such a guarantee. - Which is why Frank does so well with it.

    However, Frank banks on the fact that most people that buy his product are ethical people, and carry out their business in an ethical way. Coming into a public forum and telling people they should get a refund in an un-ethical manner kind of throws off the averages a bit, and could work to hurt Frank's good faith offer.

    Just my $.02
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      You can't tell me, considering the verbage in the video, that he wouldn't expect all sorts of crazy refunds? He's made the guarantee because he feels so good about the product that he thinks most will keep it. After watching the video again, I really don't think he'd call this unethical.

      I don't understand how opening it all and saying you don't like it and returning it is OK, but opening just a bit and changing your mind about the purchase isn't? I'm not seeing any congruency here.

      Now if she went and made copies of it all, then asked for a refund, and sold the rest of what she had on ebay...I'd call THAT unethical.
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      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        You can't tell me, considering the verbage in the video, that he wouldn't expect all sorts of crazy refunds? He's made the guarantee because he feels so good about the product that he thinks most will keep it. After watching the video again, I really don't think he'd call this unethical.

        I don't understand how opening it all and saying you don't like it and returning it is OK, but opening just a bit and changing your mind about the purchase isn't? I'm not seeing any congruency here.

        Now if she went and made copies of it all, then asked for a refund, and sold the rest of what she had on ebay...I'd call THAT unethical.
        Obviously neither one of your scenarios is against Franks own rules. However there is a difference ethically. If someone doesn't like a product and returns it, then that has something to do w/ Frank's quality control, and it's something he can control. However if someone returns a product, because they didn't budget their funds before hand, then Frank can't have any control over this - and he shouldn't have to. It's up to the individual to only buy what they can afford. And I think that this OP realizes this, and is doing the right (ethical) thing. Bravo.
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  • Profile picture of the author davebo
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    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
      Originally Posted by davebo View Post

      Then when people said ask for a refund, then you have domino effect of ass-kissing. Jmo comes to the rescue talking about honor and ethics trying to save Frank Kern a sale and call people douchebags for asking for a refund within a refund period , then a few JMO fanboys come to the rescue to defend Jmo talking about honor codes and the like, then you have the soft sellers that say that it's perfectly acceptable to ask for a refund but they would never do it because it's against their personal code.
      Ass-kissing? Fan boys? Would you say that if everyone agreed with you?

      You're acting like a jealous person now.

      I haven't seen any ass-kissing in this thread at all. Don't let the fact that everyone won't always agree with you get you down sport.
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      • Profile picture of the author davebo
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        • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
          Originally Posted by davebo View Post

          Jealous of what and who? I'm pointing out that you've got to be a fanboy if you are trying to convince a lady in financial difficulty that it's unethical to ask for a refund under a 'no questions asked' refund policy.
          She didn't have to be convinced of anything. She already made up her mind that she wouldn't return the product.

          Anyhow... I'm going to gracefully bow out of this thread now.

          Take it easy davebo
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        • Profile picture of the author baca85
          Originally Posted by davebo View Post

          Jealous of what and who? I'm pointing out that you've got to be a fanboy if you are trying to convince a lady in financial difficulty that it's unethical to ask for a refund under a 'no questions asked' refund policy.

          Can i point out Terrie doesn't need convincing she has already decided herself that it is unethical. And others are trying convince her otherwise.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Obviously whether or not this is ethical can vary depending on your own ethics. But I guarantee that these no questions asked offers bank on the fact that most people will not refund an item simply because they later find out that they can't afford it, or have no time for it - which is what the OP says in her original post (no mention of a house burning down - but that shouldn't even matter).
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      Obviously whether or not this is ethical can vary depending on your own ethics. But I guarantee that these no questions asked offers bank on the fact that most people will not refund an item simply because they later find out that they can't afford it, or have no time for it - which is what the OP says in her original post (no mention of a house burning down - but that shouldn't even matter).
      How can you guarantee that? Would you really have me believe, that Frank, who is a veteran of million dollar launches, would be blindsided by a refund request based on someone not being able to afford it? Come on...he's probably had much, much, much stranger refund requests than that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        How can you guarantee that? Would you really have me believe, that Frank, who is a veteran of million dollar launches, would be blindsided by a refund request based on someone not being able to afford it? Come on...he's probably had much, much, much stranger refund requests than that.

        Nathan,

        This really isn't about Frank at all.

        He'd honor any request, no matter how silly. You'd be amazed at some of the generous things I've seen him do over the years. Truly ridiculous, next level generous stuff. Of course, hardly anyone sees this side as he's super modest about the whole thing and keeps it pretty hush.

        Anyhow, this isn't really about him.

        It's more about each individual purchaser.

        I guess I just like the days when you spit on your palm and shook hands on a deal. Back when a deal was a deal.

        Ya know, all that commendable behavior type stuff like taking responsibility for your actions and just doing what is right.

        What bothers me here the most is that instead of helping this poor women to implement that materials and make her a sum far beyond the $2000, people are suggesting refund.

        Are we in the marketing business or the refund business?

        How about we talk about things that will make her some money?

        That seems to make a lot more sense to me.
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        • Profile picture of the author davebo
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
            Originally Posted by davebo View Post

            Are you seriously kidding me? Are you 70 years old or something. "Back when a deal was a deal"...hahaha.

            Seems pretty simple.
            Are you 15 or something?
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        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
          I have no doubt that Frank would honor practically any refund request. I can't attest to his character because I don't know him, but the way he stated his policy I'm fairly certain he has taken things like this into consideration.

          I think there are a lot of assumptions being made here that are simply incorrect. Why offer a refund if people should feel guilty for getting one? That's all I'm asking.

          I asked her what she's done with the course, but she never responded. I agree that she should be worrying more about making more money than getting her money back. However, I also don't want to pretend that this has anything to do with morals, when it really has more to do with commissions. I bet if you asked people that were not IM'ers what they thought about the situation, they'd have a completely different opinion.

          Its like asking a bunch of car salesmen what they think about their customers. I'm certainly not getting a warm fuzzy here.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
            Terri,

            I get emails every couple days from people asking when Mass Control will open back up.

            In fact, just got a skype from a Warrior about 5 minutes ago. (no kidding).

            Anyhow, I told him about this thread and he may or may not be contacting you.

            If I have any others ask, I'll be sure to send them your direction.

            Best of luck.

            However, I'd try and consume whatever you can while it's still in your hands. Would be a shame for you to not learn the materials in there if you want to do any type of marketing online.
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            • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
              Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

              Terri,

              I get emails every couple days from people asking when Mass Control will open back up.

              In fact, just got a skype from a Warrior about 5 minutes ago. (no kidding).

              Anyhow, I told him about this thread and he may or may not be contacting you.

              If I have any others ask, I'll be sure to send them your direction.

              Best of luck.

              However, I'd try and consume whatever you can while it's still in your hands. Would be a shame for you to not learn the materials in there if you want to do any type of marketing online.
              Jason trying to save face(from my comment), by trying to bait back the lvalue to IM launches, and internet marketing products. ($5 tells me there were no Warrior 5 minutes ago)

              On Skype Jason? You take customer support on Skype? LOLLL

              Sorry no magic Jason, you shouldnt have jumped in here in the first place. With your biased view.

              You know, just let Frank Kern handle refunds and check stats. No need to play silly mind games.
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        • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
          Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

          How about we talk about things that will make her some money?
          So why didn't you begin talking??

          Maybe you have Pm:ed her already. Are you switching direction.

          Just quit Jason, I know your mind games outs and ins.

          I'm here to serve the newbie. You here to serve the newbie or save $2k out of a $1 million lauch, Seems funny to me.

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  • Profile picture of the author SteveAC
    I would advise you to contact Frank Kern directly. Explain to him your situation. Ask him what he would do if he were in your shoes...
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    This reminds me of the kid that traded his cow for the magic beans.

    You may get out of your situation by using the magic beans. Don't sell the golden goose on ebay for the price of beans.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      This reminds me of the kid that traded his cow for the magic beans.

      You may get out of your situation by using the magic beans. Don't sell the golden goose on ebay for the price of beans.

      I will agree with you there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    The lady needs to make her own mind up about whether to seek a refund or not.

    Kern did promise one for any reason at all if you wanted one.

    I wonder how many extra sales he got because of this excellent guarantee? Probably an extra 25% maybe. Especially when it is a high ticket item.

    What if he had said in his video:

    "You only get your money back if you try it and if it doesn't work. I won't give you a refund if you don't have the time to do it, or if you run into financial difficulty perhaps because of the credit crunch. That's your problem not mine. So give me some m*ther f**king m*ney and don't ask me for a bleep bleep refund".

    No, he said if you want your money back for ANY reason then you can have it.

    Under the circumstances it appears she needs the money more than Kern right now.

    If you live by the sword you die by the sword.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimG
    Jason,
    For what it's worth, I'd consider purchasing Terri's copy of Mass Control 2 from her for full price if there was a way I could get the bonus you offered for folks that purchased through your link.

    Respectfully,
    Tim
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by TimG View Post

      Jason,
      For what it's worth, I'd consider purchasing Terri's copy of Mass Control 2 from her for full price if there was a way I could get the bonus you offered for folks that purchased through your link.

      Respectfully,
      Tim
      Well, I really wouldn't be compensated as an affiliate, but I do like you Tim, so therefore I'd be inclined to say YES.
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      • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
          Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

          Slam your fugly face against a wall Mofatt..

          Your ethics are nothing but D-I-R-T
          Ease up, tough guy... You're violating forum rules.
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          • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
            Originally Posted by LoudMac View Post

            Ease up, tough guy... You're violating forum rules.
            I'm nothing but not tough.

            But I have to step in and give the dude a lesson when he can't stop himself.

            I have no fanbase, and no one is giving me a thank you, yet. But I dont care about this. I know a lot of old timers here is up and awake. For the n00bs it's probably too far fetched from their reality, so they cant grasp Mofat magics.

            I'm gonna fight for the old board members. I could infact just sell a WSO in the forum with all the gurus tactics in them.

            Its one side to sell like Filesaime and get his launch out. It's another side to troll every thread and bring Frank to the lights of heavens, when ever he can.

            Even if it drains someone who needs the money badly.

            This really have me supspicious about the big launches.

            Why fight so hard for $2k when they earn millions each launch?

            Is Moffat paid by every dollar he can save for Frank. Real silly coming in here when the lady real needs her money.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              There is two sides of the coin here.

              First, she should have known that she couldn't afford it before purchasing. I bet she did know that but decided to try it out. Well when she purchased, that means someone couldn't purchase who could afford it because of the limitations on quantity.

              It is about taking personal responsibility which a lot of people on this forum do not do.

              The other side is she is in her full right to a refund. No one really disputed it. I am sure it would be granted to her. It all depends on the type of person she is. She seems to have a buyer for the product so she gets her bonus and gets her money back. It all worked out.

              I cannot say if a refund in this situation is unethical or not. It really isn't my call. I just need to be true to myself. If I wasn't sure I could afford purchasing it then I wouldn't have purchased it.

              The refund guarantee is a marketing ploy that works. There will always be refund because of it but that isn't such a bad thing. It means you sold well.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

          Slam your fugly face against a wall Mofatt..

          Your ethics are nothing but D-I-R-T
          A internet tough guy huh? lol
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          • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            A internet tough guy huh? lol
            Just watch all of my posts, I'm seriously a bad ass, I just had surgery got damn... I cant even get my feet to fit my shoes. I'm in serious pain, and I can give proof on this, unlike Jasons 5 minute booty call on Skype,
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        • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
          Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

          Slam your fugly face against a wall Mofatt..

          Your ethics are nothing but D-I-R-T
          The Magic Johnson I know never spoke like this.

          What happened to you dude?

          You were always smiling when I used to see you on TV, even at the last slam dunk contest.

          Hey Davebo,

          Does me making a crappy joke at Magic Johnson's expense make me a kissup too?
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      • Profile picture of the author TimG
        Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

        Well, I really wouldn't be compensated as an affiliate, but I do like you Tim, so therefore I'd be inclined to say YES.
        Hey brother,
        I'm sure me you and Terri could work something out.

        Also, I have no ill towards anyone in this thread. I'm just offering a possible solution that does the following:

        1 - Allow Terri to sell her course

        2 - Allow Frank to keep his well earned profit for the hard work in making his course.

        3 - Allow me to purchase a course I initially missed out on getting and if I can get a top notch bonus from another marketer (J-Mo) who has something to teach that I can learn and apply to my own business to increase my ROI then it's a win-win for all parties.

        Warriors, at the end of the day we can all agree to disagree on certain aspects of how to run an online business but as a group we gain nothing by ripping in to each other.

        The forum should be a place where we can post our thoughts and feelings on running an Internet Marketing business without any form of hatred towards each other because let's face it, this is tough stuff and if as a group we can't carry on intelligent discussions that allow us to all learn from each other then what does this forum exist for...? To merely sell products to each other in the WSO section and a place for trolls to come and pawn garbage off on this group................I certainly hope not.

        Respectfully,
        Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author enterpryzman
    I have to say, I follow both Frank and Jason in their marketing ( free video's, ect... ) and I wanted very much to buy that info at the time and simply was not able to do so ...I was tempted to " charge it " but was headed to Europe with my wife so she could have cancer treatments in Switzerland.....never know what you need $$$ till done.


    I am in total agreement about not simply asking for a refund. I have a brick and morter business and offer refunds if unsatisfied with services and have never had one. To think that someone would simply ask for one due to changes beyond seller control troubles me. I would like to see research on what % of refunds are actually for good reasons and those that are not.

    I came here to learn and am glad to see that some things, I already know and do not need to be taught.

    Be well all and have a great night !

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author sap147
    She purchased Mass Control when it launched, so lets give her the benefit of the doubt and say she looked it over.. the course IS expensive and if she needs the money in case of emergency, then she should be able to return it with no problem. There is nothing we can say here that will change her mind, I am sure MC course has enough information to get started with internet marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kris Turner
    Would anyone like a hug?
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    • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
      Originally Posted by Alex Taylor View Post

      Would anyone like a hug?
      For what it's worth, Im out of this thread. Catch me if you can run.... :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    Well, I suppose we can all learn something every day. Even from a thread such as this.

    Now it needs to have a bit of cool water poured onto it. Glug, glug, glug.

    SSSSSsssssssssss..ssss....ss...s... (The sound of steam coming off - I'm not quite sure of the spelling )

    Ahhhhhh. That's better. The weather sure has been lovely in these parts today...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kris Turner
    When you offer a crazy guarantee, your intention is to convert people who would otherwise have decided no. So it's the seller's fault if someone misses out on the last copy, not the fault of someone who hype-purchased.

    As for ethical or unethical - that shouldn't even be up for debate. When the guarantee states that you can return it for absolutely any reason, how can this situation be unethical? It can't.

    Unethical would be dishonestly refunding on a "conditional" guarantee.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Alex Taylor View Post

      When you offer a crazy guarantee, your intention is to convert people who would otherwise have decided no. So it's the seller's fault if someone misses out on the last copy, not the fault of someone who hype-purchased.

      As for ethical or unethical - that shouldn't even be up for debate. When the guarantee states that you can return it for absolutely any reason, how can this situation be unethical? It can't.

      Unethical would be dishonestly refunding on a "conditional" guarantee.
      Yes, it is the buyers fault for buying something they couldn't afford. So everyone in debt and losing their houses is not at fault, it was all the hype going on in the housing markets. They should not have to pay, eh?

      I hate it when people don't take responsibility for themselves and blame others. That is one reason I really hate this IM market. There seems to be a lot of them in this niche.
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      • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Yes, it is the buyers fault for buying something they couldn't afford. So everyone in debt and losing their houses is not at fault, it was all the hype going on in the housing markets. They should not have to pay, eh?

        I hate it when people don't take responsibility for themselves and blame others. That is one reason I really hate this IM market. There seems to be a lot of them in this niche.
        Tempers are frayed too much in this thread. Still:

        I agree with the part about housing market, somewhat. This situation is totally different. The difference: housing market does not offer an unconditional guarantee and everyone knew/knows that. Here, there was an unconditional guarantee. Both situations are completely different, if you consider that.

        Do not compare apples and oranges.

        (At the same time, I understand the frustration of people blaming others without even trying.)
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Interesting little PM I got from one of the TROLLS in this thread.

          Check the image attached...
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          • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

            Interesting little PM I got from one of the TROLLS in this thread.

            Check the image attached...
            I'm sad to see you didn't take me up on the offer. And why are you calling me a troll??

            I will never PM you again... now you are trying to black mail me... huh?
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            • Profile picture of the author TKO
              Magic Johnson, I'm assuming your the NBA legend that has HIV.

              A little bit of advice, Instead of wasting your time in this forum, seek help dude. Maybe its not too late for you.

              Before you make allegations, do your research.

              Jason "the moffster" doesn't need to manipulate the system, he is a proven marketer that over delivers.

              Also the help and input he gives back to this forum is invaluable, not to mention the contacts he has.

              So "Magic Johnston" LOL LOL F%$^K OFF and seek help.
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              • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                Originally Posted by TKO View Post

                Magic Johnson, I'm assuming your the NBA legend that has HIV.

                A little bit of advice, Instead of wasting your time in this forum, seek help dude. Maybe its not too late for you.

                Before you make allegations, do your research.

                Jason "the moffster" doesn't need to manipulate the system, he is a proven marketer that over delivers.

                Also the help and input he gives back to this forum is invaluable, not to mention the contacts he has.

                So "Magic Johnston" LOL LOL F%$^K OFF and seek help.
                What am I going to seek help for, HIV? :rolleyes:

                I just thought Moffatt were intentional to keep a few grands. From a lady who obviously made a mistake. If it's wrong to call somebody out over this, then were do you draw the line? And we can discuss it.

                You promote a 30-days iron claud money backer, you have to deliver. It sad to see greed evoke people to step over dead bodies.
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              • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
                Originally Posted by TKO View Post

                Magic Johnson, I'm assuming your the NBA legend that has HIV.

                A little bit of advice, Instead of wasting your time in this forum, seek help dude. Maybe its not too late for you.

                Before you make allegations, do your research.

                Jason "the moffster" doesn't need to manipulate the system, he is a proven marketer that over delivers.

                Also the help and input he gives back to this forum is invaluable, not to mention the contacts he has.

                So "Magic Johnston" LOL LOL F%$^K OFF and seek help.
                Damn, I didn't see this NBA joke.

                If I did, I wouldn't have posted mine.

                Oh well

                It's funny this dude's name is Magic Johnson.

                I have a black cat with FIV (Feline Immunodeficiency Virus) and I call him Magic Johnson

                I love that damned cat though. I've rescued him out of tall ass trees twice and had to
                have one of my boys do it for me recently bc I can't do anything crazy physical from
                my knee surgery
                Signature

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                • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                  Like I care about this members poping up suddenly, they could as well get cut a check to defend. Moffatimus... (but that's just pure speculations)


                  Am I out for tonight, yes... i will not waste my time with the gurus. And gurus little gurus. And baby gurus.

                  Next thing I know I get a call.. I mean this folks are truly greedy over a $2k. Get you some blankets, and try to kuddle with a girlfriend, or your dog. If no girlfriend.

                  Google, hell Club Pinguins sold for $700 million to some unknown company. It was that Goofy and Donald Duck company.

                  I loved them when I were a kid.

                  Times rough, pies are small=?

                  Did too many gurus leak in through the backdoors, the pies are only $200k a head something, and there are a contract statement of some sorts.

                  Gurus little gurus were locked in for 5 years, before the meltdown, on 30k a year base salary.. LOL

                  Like 5-6 dudes trying to black mail me lately... what's next, the north korean army??? I'm the drama Lama, I have HIV and I cant dance woth a shit, and my breath smells like cheese on Sundays.

                  Get over it. You'll win for now, Moffito.
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          • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

            Interesting little PM I got from one of the TROLLS in this thread.

            Check the image attached...


            Now it would have been more fun if you started to cover your fake nicks right?


            Sad to see you didn't mouth a fruedian slip, had been too fun to post a this as a screencapture...

            Along with a screencrap of Moffatt signing a $3k check over Webcam.

            ...but I forgot it's Kern who cuts the checks. Now what about $2K, like the product mentioned.

            Now, lets do some good, I want to see you post any PM's you have gotten from members you have helped, on Warrior Forum. And NOT customers of some product.

            (now don't reg in to your other nicknames and post to yourself)

            bla
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

          Tempers are frayed too much in this thread. Still:

          I agree with the part about housing market, somewhat. This situation is totally different. The difference: housing market does not offer an unconditional guarantee and everyone knew/knows that. Here, there was an unconditional guarantee. Both situations are completely different, if you consider that.

          Do not compare apples and oranges.

          (At the same time, I understand the frustration of people blaming others without even trying.)
          No, instead you got people filing bankruptcy in order to keep banks from foreclosing on them. People can literally stay in their houses for a year without paying.

          I am making a statement about personal responsibility. It has nothing to do with a refund guarantee and therefore is a proper comparison.
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          • Profile picture of the author garyv
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            No, instead you got people filing bankruptcy in order to keep banks from foreclosing on them. People can literally stay in their houses for a year without paying.

            I am making a statement about personal responsibility. It has nothing to do with a refund guarantee and therefore is a proper comparison.
            There's no such thing as personal responsibility any more. Most people think that the rich should pay for their financial mistakes. - And when they say rich, they mean anyone making more than them.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by garyv View Post

              There's no such thing as personal responsibility any more. Most people think that the rich should pay for their financial mistakes. - And when they say rich, they mean anyone making more than them.
              I agree Gary. My wife begged me not to read the newspaper any more.
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          • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post


            I am making a statement about personal responsibility. It has nothing to do with a refund guarantee and therefore is a proper comparison.
            That's alright. You've made it.

            Still, the fact remains: OP has every right to return the product, if she feels like returning it. If the seller doesn't like that, tough luck. Shouldn't have offered that return policy if he couldn't afford it. Unconditional guarantee means unconditional guarantee. End of story. Lock, stock and barrel.
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            • Profile picture of the author sevenish
              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              Still, the fact remains: OP has every right to return the product, if she feels like returning it. If the seller doesn't like that, tough luck. Shouldn't have offered that return policy if he couldn't afford it. Unconditional guarantee means unconditional guarantee. End of story. Lock, stock and barrel.
              Sorta what I was trying to get across.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              That's alright. You've made it.

              Still, the fact remains: OP has every right to return the product, if she feels like returning it. If the seller doesn't like that, tough luck. Shouldn't have offered that return policy if he couldn't afford it. Unconditional guarantee means unconditional guarantee. End of story. Lock, stock and barrel.
              I never stated otherwise so you can keep your panties on.
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              • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                I never stated otherwise.
                Cool. See you around.

                Again, to anyone else "browbeating": OP has every right to return the product, if she feels like returning it. If the seller doesn't like that, tough luck. Shouldn't have offered that return policy if he couldn't afford it. Unconditional guarantee means unconditional guarantee. End of story. Lock, stock and barrel.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Yes, it is the buyers fault for buying something they couldn't afford. So everyone in debt and losing their houses is not at fault, it was all the hype going on in the housing markets. They should not have to pay, eh?
        If you want to make housing analogies, here's a fair one: someone realizes he can no longer afford his mortgage payments, so he sells his house and moves somewhere cheaper. Nothing wrong with that.

        No one in this thread is saying the lady shouldn't pay for the product she bought. I think she already has paid for it. And to get a refund, she would have to return the product, right? I don't see anyone saying she should be able to get a refund and keep the course (which would be more similar to your housing example).
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

          If you want to make housing analogies, here's a fair one: someone realizes he can no longer afford his mortgage payments, so he sells his house and moves somewhere cheaper. Nothing wrong with that.

          No one in this thread is saying the lady shouldn't pay for the product she bought. I think she already has paid for it. And to get a refund, she would have to return the product, right? I don't see anyone saying she should be able to get a refund and keep the course (which would be more similar to your housing example).
          I never stated that anyone said any of those things.

          I am saying she shouldn't have purchased at all if she couldn't afforded it. I never stated that she couldn't or shouldn't refund. That is up to her.

          I just see what other people are stating. Responsibility and she took that responsibility.

          I can't tell you how many posts I see on this forum that talk about charging back. That is normally the first thing people say. They don't say contact the seller, try to work with the seller or so on... They just say call your credit card company.

          I even seen one thread where the person got exactly what he paid for and just decided he didn't want it and complained there was no refunds on the product.


          In the housing market, people took out all their equity or moved into houses they couldn't afford. That is why you are seeing the problems that you are now. It was easy for them. Not it is easy to either file bankruptcy or walk away from the house. Most can't sell their houses because the owe more than it is worth.

          I have dealt with a lot of people in foreclosure and most of them are would not fall into the responsible buyer that your post talked about.
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          • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            I can't tell you how many posts I see on this forum that talk about charging back. That is normally the first thing people say. They don't say contact the seller, try to work with the seller or so on... They just say call your credit card company.
            Now did you hear what motives they had, why they wanted their money back?

            I'm not stating you trying to generalize, I think sometimes a chargeback will be needed too, if they don't deliver on promises, we have the right to get our money??

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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

              Now did you hear what motives they had, why they wanted their money back?

              I'm not stating you trying to generalize, I think sometimes a chargeback will be needed too, if they don't deliver on promises, don't you agree??

              Sometimes.

              When the person asks for a refund and they complain it has been a day or week and then start calling the credit card companies than no.

              I have had refunds from retail stores take up to 30 days.

              I think you are aware that people overuse charge backs in this market.

              When a person gets exactly what is promised and they decide they don't want it and there is a no refund guarantee they shouldn't charge back.

              Charge backs should be a last resort... here it seems to be a first resort besides Paypal disputes.
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              • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                I think you are aware that people overuse charge backs in this market.
                Retail stores are one thing. You get what you see, 99.9% of the time.

                Internet marketing products are a different thing...

                I agree there are tons of slackers taking advantage of gurantees. But when it's educational and rational products, it's really a thing to discuss over.

                That's how I see it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

                  Retail stores are one thing. You get what you see, 99.9% of the time.

                  Internet marketing products are a different thing...

                  I agree there are tons of slackers taking advantage of gurantees. But when it's educational and rational products, it's really a thing to discuss over.

                  That's how I see it.
                  You don't seem to be able to comprehend what I am saying as well as others in this thread.

                  I stated a refund took 30 days from a established store. I do think they have 30 days or more to refund based on law.

                  I did not make the comparison of buying from a retail store and a digital product.

                  I do buy things from Amazon and it would be the same thing.

                  It is these types of comments that has created one crazy thread here. The OP stated she didn't want to refund and people pushed her into it. Then they complained and start talking BS about not taking the refund and told others were trying to talk her out of he refund.

                  She didn't want a refund people.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    You don't seem to be able to comprehend what I am saying as well as others in this thread.

                    I stated a refund took 30 days from a established store. I do think they have 30 days or more to refund based on law.

                    I did not make the comparison of buying from a retail store and a digital product.

                    I do buy things from Amazon and it would be the same thing.

                    It is these types of comments that has created one crazy thread here. The OP stated she didn't want to refund and people pushed her into it. Then they complained and start talking BS about not taking the refund and told others were trying to talk her out of he refund.

                    She didn't want a refund people.

                    No one tried to convince her to get a refund, some recommended that option to her.

                    However, this has gone way beyond that now. At this point, we're talking about sellers that speak out of both sides of their mouths.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

                      No one tried to convince her to get a refund, some recommended that option to her.

                      However, this has gone way beyond that now. At this point, we're talking about sellers that speak out of both sides of their mouths.
                      You may be talking about that but I am not.

                      I must be reading the thread differently than you. It looked like to me that people were trying to talk her into refunding.

                      Frank never denied nor told the woman not to ask for a refund so I wonder what end you are talking out of?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                        You may be talking about that but I am not.

                        I must be reading the thread differently than you. It looked like to me that people were trying to talk her into refunding.

                        Frank never denied nor told the woman not to ask for a refund so I wonder what end you are talking out of?

                        Well Frank doesn't post in forums...so I wouldn't expect him to show up here.

                        I didn't see anyone try to convince her to do anything to be honest...from either side. This isn't even about the OP anymore...this is about the "refund policy." We are finding out that a refund policy is meant to benefit the seller, but not the buyer. You are a "douchebag," without ethics or morals if you send a product back.
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                  • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post


                    It is these types of comments that has created one crazy thread here. The OP stated she didn't want to refund and people pushed her into it. Then they complained and start talking BS about not taking the refund and told others were trying to talk her out of he refund.

                    She didn't want a refund people.
                    Thomas,

                    Thank you for reinforcing this point. There is only one side of this argument encouraging this woman to do anything.

                    Not one mammal in this entire thread has even suggested that she shouldn't refund this product.

                    For the sake of mankind, I want to believe that people are smart enough to understand the content in this thread.

                    I'm starting to lose hope in the human race over here.
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                    • Profile picture of the author davebo
                      Banned
                      [DELETED]
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                      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                        You guys are probably more dense than I originally thought. In case you haven't realized, we got off the topic of the original poster and onto the idea that requesting a refund=unethical business. Which is what you guys, the moral police, were suggesting.
                        You have a reading comprehension problem which makes sense after reading most of your posts.

                        This country would be far better off if we had more people like the OP. That is what I am saying.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                          You have a reading comprehension problem which makes sense after reading most of your posts.

                          This country would be far better off if we had more people like the OP. That is what I am saying.

                          So, according to the words of others, not mine...combined with your argument...The world would be a better place if more people bought things that they couldn't afford or didn't need?
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                          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

                            So, according to the words of others, not mine...combined with your argument...The world would be a better place if more people bought things that they couldn't afford or didn't need?
                            Are you really having such a hard time understanding?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    She didn't want a refund people.
                    Yes,your keep bringing this up, and me and many other members see it from a different angle, she could have taken the refund if she really needed the money. But that's not 100% of my point.

                    Exrat had a great post. And I followed up, with better <Gurus COMMUNICATIONS.

                    If you provide a fairy tale riches story, then guess what? (not speaking of MC here, I havent the course)

                    Jim Straw a copywriter, stated on another board that you really pick your own audience. You can create a headline with "make money" or "earn money"

                    Its up to you how far you want to get with your claims.

                    You just seem to have little compassion and human understanding, I crap you not but there are tons of personalities out there. Some worse than others.

                    Women in the millions are sticking with abusive husbands, because they dont know better and have destructive personality traits.

                    You think they should know better?

                    Personally I always encourage people to education.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                      Devil:Terrie, do you want a refund?

                      Terrie: No.

                      Devil: Go on - take a refund.

                      Terrie: No.

                      Devil: It's your god-given constitutional right.

                      Terrie: No.

                      Devil: For Lucifer's sake - take the bloody thing!!!

                      Terrie: Tell me. What part of the word "No" don't you understand?


                      Martin
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                      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                        Devil:Terrie, do you want a refund?

                        Terrie: No.

                        Devil: Go on - take a refund.

                        Terrie: No.

                        Devil: It's your god-given constitutional right.

                        Terrie: No.

                        Devil: For Lucifer's sake - take the bloody thing!!!

                        Terrie: Tell me. What part of the word "No" don't you understand?


                        Martin

                        Martin, when will you realize that we aren't trying to convince the OP to do anything? Most of us have moved past the OP and are just using her as an example for this magic ethical refund thingamajig. I could care less what she does with the package...I got my panties in a bunch when we started labeling people for believing that a no questions asked refund means just that.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                        Devil:Terrie, do you want a refund?

                        Terrie: No.

                        Devil: Go on - take a refund.

                        Terrie: No.

                        Devil: It's your god-given constitutional right.

                        Terrie: No.

                        Devil: For Lucifer's sake - take the bloody thing!!!

                        Terrie: Tell me. What part of the word "No" don't you understand?


                        Martin
                        You are far from funny. Dude.

                        What is it really to defend? You look real uneducated.

                        Someone brought up she could take a full refund, if she were in a financial burden.

                        Jason came in with his gospels and tried to convince here not to
                        even think a thought about such things. "Because you have to man up"

                        Jason should man up if anyone. Loz is one of the greatest most humble guys I've witnessed on this board.

                        So the gross margins on this $2k courses, are huge already.

                        We already knows this.

                        Now who is the greedy devils??

                        I'm getting real sicked by the greed glances from certain
                        members here.

                        But I'm fighting an up hill battle, might as well call it quits.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

                          You are far from funny. Dude.

                          What is it really to defend? You look real uneducated.

                          Someone brought up she could take a full refund, if she were in a financial burden.

                          Jason came in with his gospels and tried to convince here not to
                          even think a thought about such things. "Because you have to man up"

                          Jason should man up if anyone. Loz is one of the greatest most humble guys I've witnessed on this board.

                          So the gross margins on this $2k courses, are huge already.

                          We already knows this.

                          Now who is the greedy devils??

                          I'm getting real sicked by the greed glances from certain members here.
                          If your posts are a sign of education than I would rather be uneducated.

                          Yeah, people should charge $7 for all their information. They are greedy for selling it for more. I love this thread.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                            If your posts are a sign of education than I would rather be uneducated.

                            Yeah, people should charge $7 for all their information. They are greedy for selling it for more. I love this thread.
                            Nice try.

                            You do nothing but degrade my Intelligence with such a ridcules comment.

                            Ones again you live on an exaggerate biasis.

                            Do nothing for the debate.

                            And why do you?

                            Because you dont seem to have any real defense intelligence...for my
                            intelligent comments.

                            I'm serious, all you do is slam, and get back to the one thing, again and again... "She didnt want"

                            No she didn't want... I get it.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

                              Nice try.

                              You do nothing but degrade my Intelligence with such a ridcules comment.

                              Kind of like what you did to Martin and others in this thread.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

                      Yes,your keep bringing this up, and me and many other members see it from a different angle, she could have taken the refund if she really needed the money. But that's not 100% of my point.
                      She didn't want a refund. She could have done a lot of things but choose to deal with it in responsible way. That is the way she thought and a lot of others thought. That is the point. You can try to make it a greedy guru thing all you want. It just shows how ignorant you are.

                      She didn't want a refund.
                      She didn't want a refund.

                      Kern never said no to her refund because she didn't want a refund. Now Kern is greedy for not giving a refund for a person who didn't want a refund.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                        She didn't want a refund. She could have done a lot of things but choose to deal with it in responsible way. That is the way she thought and a lot of others thought. That is the point. You can try to make it a greedy guru thing all you want. It just shows how ignorant you are.

                        She didn't want a refund.
                        She didn't want a refund.

                        Kern never said no to her refund because she didn't want a refund. Now Kern is greedy for not giving a refund for a person who didn't want a refund.
                        Thomas,

                        Will you stop beating around the bush and say what you mean in plain, simple English?

                        Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Davebo and Magic Johnson, from reading your posts in this thread it is obvious that both of you seem to have a personal problem with Jason Moffat.

    According to the rules of this forum, if you have a problem with another member, it's between you and that member. Take it outside.

    So why are you wasting your time blowing hot air in here?

    You both come across as major jerks, and unproven jerks at that. I have known about Jason (and Frank) for several years. He has proven himself as a contributing member of this forum and every product I have purchased from him has exceeded my expectations.

    Can I say the same for either of you? NO! I've never even heard of either of you! I have never bought any of your products (assuming you guys actually have your own products...) and I certainly will NOT purchase nor recommend anything from either of you after reading the nasty and mean-spirited comments the two of you have posted in this thread!

    Both Jason and Frank know what they are doing. Do you? Doesn't look like it!

    Both of you should step away from the keyboard and think about what you are doing to your future reputation on this forum. You've already lost one potential REPEAT customer (the most valuable type) and every time you berate someone here with a nasty name, you risk losing yet another. And unless you go back and change every one of your posts, everyone else who comes here will read what you wrote! (And that won't even do the trick, because a lot of your posts were quoted in posts by others, so you can't even delete those!)

    Until you think about that, go ahead and keep trying to impress us with your name calling. After all, it's not my business you are destroying...

    Terri, I hope you were able to sell your copy of MC 2.0 to another Warrior or better yet, put it to good use and make a heck of a lot more money with it than your investment.

    And don't you worry about causing such a stir. It wasn't anything you did. The fault lies with the jerks who took over this thread and decided to make things personal. That happens here sometimes, unfortunately.
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  • Profile picture of the author Star69
    Magic Johnson, if you are referring to me when you mention "Like I care about this members poping up suddenly, they could as well get cut a check to defend. Moffatimus... (but that's just pure speculations) "

    I can answer your question: No, I receive nothing in the way of compensation in any form from either Mr. Moffat nor Mr. Kern for mentioning them in my posts.

    I just think the posts in this thread from yourself and davebo have exceeded the limits of civility and are quite rude and uncalled for.

    Becoming a respected Warrior Member takes time and effort. Name calling is easy. Respect must be earned.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    I think Magic Johnson needs to take another Percoset. ( He mentioned he was in a ton of pain )

    Having had Reconstructive ACL Surgery on Feb 3rd, I know from personal
    experience that when you're in lots of pain, you find yourself blurting out
    cuss words and just not making much sense.

    But what also could happen is you take 1 Percoset too many and the same
    thing ends up happening!!!

    Maybe that's what happened to him.

    He's either in tons of pain or he's all doped up on his painkillers
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post


      He's either in tons of pain or he's all doped up on his painkillers
      I was just going to ask if you have been sharing your medication again.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        I was just going to ask if you have been sharing your medication again.
        LOL, not with him.

        But I do have some left and haven't taken any in a couple of weeks
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  • Profile picture of the author sevenish
    Quick question here: What is the issue with asking for a refund for a product that touts an iron-clad, no questions asked money-back guarantee? I presume the subtext is that some purchasers will have 1) made the decision to purchase knowing they could refund if they found the product did not suit their situation or circumstance, and 2) um, they found the product did not suit their situation or circumstance.

    Presumably the guarantee was given not so much because the vendor enjoys giving refunds so much as he/she loves making sales ... and knows that the guarantee will increase those sales.

    While personal responsibility on the part of the customer is important, so is the responsibility of a vendor to honor -- even cheerfully -- that "iron-clad" guarantee. No?

    Just asking.

    Note: edited.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    sevenish,

    I think the beef started when people starting discussing morality and ethics of
    asking for refunds vs. not asking for refunds.

    Although the OP said she had no intentions of asking for a refund.

    But whatever, it got entertaining nonetheless
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    • Profile picture of the author sevenish
      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      sevenish,

      I think the beef started when people starting discussing morality and ethics of
      asking for refunds vs. not asking for refunds.

      Although the OP said she had no intentions of asking for a refund.

      But whatever, it got entertaining nonetheless
      Thanks Jason. I got lost in all of the tangential & spurious specificity. <-- (glad I didn't have to say that out loud! sorry, It's late here.)

      I think what bothers me about this is that although the OP said she didn't think she should request a refund, she purchased under the condition of that guarantee and should be made to feel entirely comfortable exercising it. She clearly has described that it does not suit her situation now. What more needs discussing?

      Enough said, in my opinion. The specifics are none of anyone else's business. She owes no one else an explanation.

      Just my opinion. I'm not trying to stir a cold stew.
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  • Profile picture of the author IMChick
    Sheesh, talk about your ordinary every day thread taking a bunch of twists and turns.

    First, a rock solid guarantee doesn't need an excuse, if this is what the OP desires. So back off. She already said she wasn't comfortable with a refund, the question was how to sell it.

    Second, if a physical product is purchased, it belongs to the purchaser. They may do with it what they wish, within the bounds of the law & the copyright. So, yes, she may sell it on the secondary market.

    Third, I would let this thread age a day or two and see what kind of offers the original poster gets for her course. It was sold out, and is currently unavailable. It is likely that she can recoup all of her cost with the right offers in PM's.

    Fourth, Ebay isn't the place for you to try to sell this course, for two reasons:

    Many of the IM/Frank products there are bootlegs, selling for much less money than this course. That means that the market is willing to pay a couple of hundred dollars for a 'deal' in bootlegs but you probably won't get anywhere near your costs.

    In addition, a big sale or product like this for big money should not be one of the first things you list on Ebay--it has it's own learning curve, and it is pretty steep when it's a big price tag that matters. If you are interested in ebay for the future, start small and slow an work your way up to this.

    Hope this clarifies some of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
    Thanks guys, this is the funniest thread I've seen in ages.

    Who needs TV?
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    • Profile picture of the author T.I.M.
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      You'd be amazed at some of the generous things I've seen him do over the years. Truly ridiculous, next level generous stuff. Of course, hardly anyone sees this side as he's super modest about the whole thing and keeps it pretty hush.
      Cool, as a friend you will put this out there but when the time calls for it. Not in a thread like this, you're too emotionally invested in the responses now.

      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      What bothers me here the most is that instead of helping this poor women to implement that materials and make her a sum far beyond the $2000, people are suggesting refund.

      Are we in the marketing business or the refund business?

      How about we talk about things that will make her some money?

      That seems to make a lot more sense to me.
      ***Applauding*** Literally not some LOL type internet thing but I clapped for real at the screen when reading this. Offering your bonus earlier to her for no compensation other than a human being helping another is great. You truly do care about people and it shows. Yes helping her make money was the motivation for her spending $2K.

      Terrie is good about it. She doesn't want to screw Frank out of the refund, she was bait and switched on the bonus. What that guy thought was better may have not been for her so it's a sticky situation. Terrie did you send him an email stating your situation? That promise was the terms of you buying from his link after all. All in all if you email him he may take you up on the original deal and Jason is willing to offer his bonus as well because he's a good dude too. And he knows Frank Kern so knows the info in the program so that is a hell of a bonus.

      For anyone giving the refund feedback, well think about it. Frank created this course so he knows it inside and out, he won't benefit at all from getting it back. But there's people like TimG (great name so I like you) wanting to buy it who missed out then. So this is massive value instead of waiting for the next launch.

      Terrie got her info out of it, people willing to make that info WORK and others want this info so it's win-win for all if she sells it off now instead of refunding.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    This thread has calmed down a bit now, but I'm still waiting to see how it ends. There's bound to be a twist.

    It's a cliffhanger that's what it is.

    I wonder what the scriptwriters will come up with in the final episode. It's the last one in the series so it's bound to still end up as another cliffhanger.

    Everyone is off licking their wounds and regrouping, ready for the final battle.

    (Sorry - just been watching an episode of 24).
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    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
      Guys... no one is suggesting that she shouldn't take advantage of the refund. In fact, she would be well within her rights if she chose to do so.

      It's her "not wanting to wear out her welcome" styled attitude that some find commendable. Just because someone is willing to extend a helping hand, doesn't mean that you should always take it.

      davebo, loz, and anyone else that thinks that she should get her money back...

      All of your comments in support of her exercising her right to a refund are correct and fair. And, there isn't one comment in this entire thread that comes close to encouraging her to repress her right to request a full refund.

      Some of you may even want to argue that this isn't a 'moral' issue. Well... it is. The OP doesn't feel like requesting a refund is the 'right' thing to do. Otherwise... she would have requested a refund from the start.

      Also, I'm not defending Jason... nor am I one of his "fanboy's" but I understand the point of his initial comment. Now, if his choice of words rubbed any of you the wrong way--that's between you guys.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        Wow, go to bed and the thread blows up without me...good stuff.

        Marc, I think my main problem is that people are trying to turn this into something it isn't. Some are imposing standards that they don't impose on themselves behind closed doors.

        I could be wrong, but the fact that she feels guilty for screwing an affiliate out of a commission, even though he screwed her out of a bonus, says more about the situation the people might realize.

        Many times when people buy products, they don't want to return it because they feel stupid for not "getting it."

        Furthermore, when a thread is clouded by advice from affiliates, it becomes even more of a complex issue.

        Let's face it, Frank is one of those infallible "guru" types that people don't want to cross. I'm guessing the OP feels that if she did return it, she'd be put on the blacklist and wouldn't be "part of the club." I could be talking out my ass, but that's just my guess.

        When I buy a lamp from Lowe's and I take it home and decide it isn't right for me, I have zero qualms about returning it. That is the way of the business world.

        This doesn't have anything to do with "my word is my bond" type of stuff.

        And if the OP ever did decide to get a refund, I'm certain this thread has probably convinced her otherwise. She's basically been told she has no ethics or morals if she does so.
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  • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
    Nathan,

    I agree with you 100%. You see... I understand both sides of the argument on this one. I'm obviously more in favor of how I would probably do things if I was her.

    I think that there is a unique, and unexplainable dynamic in this situation--which is the reason why I favor some of the points made, against requesting a refund, in this thread.

    Admittedly, I've refunded many different items in the past--without any qualms--and will most likely do so in the future.

    But, one thing that I have never done is return a product that I realized--after using it--didn't fit in to my budget. And if I have, I will try my best to never do it again.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Question:

      While we're talking about the ethics of refunding a purchase
      made "in error", isn't there also an ethical dimension to
      SELLING "in error" - to less (or un-) qualified prospects?

      I've had a discussion about that prickly subject with Jeff Walker
      and Tony Blake around the time of PLF 2.0 launch, and am still
      wondering about it now in light of this exchange!

      Thoughts?

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
        Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        Question:

        While we're talking about the ethics of refunding a purchase
        made "in error", isn't there also an ethical dimension to
        SELLING "in error" - to less (or un-) qualified prospects?

        Thoughts?

        All success
        Dr.Mani

        Salesmen and ethics are not by tradition good bed partners.

        How can you expect the 'Seller' to have any understanding of whether a potential buyer is 'qualified', especially in a sale where the two parties do not meet face-to-face.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Dr. Mani,

        While we're talking about the ethics of refunding a purchase
        made "in error", isn't there also an ethical dimension to
        SELLING "in error" - to less (or un-) qualified prospects?

        I've had a discussion about that prickly subject with Jeff Walker
        and Tony Blake around the time of PLF 2.0 launch, and am still
        wondering about it now in light of this exchange!
        I believe there is. I guess for those with shorter-term business models, it's irrelevant. It's purely a conscience issue.

        But I think it's worth considering that if you sell someone a physical course with 'thud factor' (tm P.Myers), then that thud factor can come back to haunt you.

        If the buyer ends up stuck with it, and it's absolutely no use to them, they may hang on to it and keep it on the shelf purely because they can't bare to chuck $xxxx worth of nothing in the bin.

        And every time they glance at that shelf, and see a row of cheapo half-broken DVD cases with your name all over it, the thud factor will apply every time - while they consider their greatest purchasing errors and curse the day they fell for the hype while wondering what benefits they could have got from spending the money more wisely.

        The 'selling in error' aspect is one of those grey areas where many marketers seem to find it too easy to push the boundaries, while they are composing their sales copy and dreaming of multiple figure pay-days.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Richard,

          How can you expect the 'Seller' to have any understanding of whether a potential buyer is 'qualified', especially in a sale where the two parties do not meet face-to-face.
          I think they call it market research followed by targetted marketing.

          Just look how many jaded individuals arrive here talking about how they have spent a lot of money on pipe-dreams. Some see opportunity in this. Others see a marketplace that's utterly jaded and unpleasant to work in - unless you don't give a damn and just see it all as 'great marketing.'

          It's an endless debate, because one side doesn't factor in 'providing value' as having any place in the equation.

          It's really easy to attempt to absolve oneself by pointing out 'caveat emptor.' But if that is the case, why is so much effort spent studying, disucssing and targetting 'desperate buyers' and working on emotional triggers to get the sale?

          How many of these desperate buyers actually *solve* their problems after making the purchase? How many of the salespage claims are actually fulfilled?

          Sure, it's possible to justify these tactics as 'marketing' but presumeably we'll also be welcoming gangsters and drug dealers into the fold as our soulmates, and won't be complaining at all when the unsatisfied customers scream 'Mr. XYZ is a scammer and rip off merchant' far and wide across the internet?

          Personally I don't blame the 'man on the street' marketer. I don't want to take it too far 'out there' but the fact is, if you turn on your TV, even the most imbecilic viewer is going to notice that the problems are starting at the top, affecting everyone below, and consequently dripping down through the system. It's a dog scam dog world.
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            It's an endless debate, because one side doesn't factor in 'providing value' as having any place in the equation.
            Couldn't have been said any better than this
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post


            It's an endless debate, because one side doesn't factor in 'providing value' as having any place in the equation.
            Yes thats a good point.

            This whole debate, while being very funny in parts, and providing me with a handy 'heads up' on who-not-to-do-business-with-in-any-circumstances, has provided some useful insights.

            At the end of day the a seller cannot be held responsible for how people want to spend their money. People like chasing dreams, whether it's using their credit card to pay for a vacation they cannot really afford, or alcohol and drugs they do not really need.

            It's the buyers choice and responsibilty, not that of the seller.
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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi Richard,

              At the end of the a seller cannot be held responsible for how people want to spend their money. People like chasing dreams, whether it's using their credit card to pay for a vacation they cannot really afford, or alcohol and drugs they do not really need.

              It's thier choice, thier responsibilty, not that of the seller.
              And that's the standard, well-worn get-out.

              It comes down to this - are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

              The consequences of this choice are debateable, subjective, and provoke far wider discussions than the realms of what's on-topic in this forum.

              Which is why I brought up the drug dealer analogy above - it's a good one. If your only principles are 'supply meets demand' - fine.

              But you better make sure you earn enough to buy a fortified palace on a desert island when society consists entirely of kids 'high on crack, toting a machine gun' looking for someone to rob to get their next fix, or simply someone to take out their frustration on.

              My point - the 'get-out' you used above is way too simple and 'surface-level' to solve any discussion. And in case anyone is tempted, please don't try and exclude the drug dealer analogy by stating that it's illegal - so are $50bn ponzi schemes, but that doesn't stop it affecting everyone

              An example of the depth of it - let's compare two deals by the hypothetical drug dealer.

              a) sells crack to an already exisiting 50 year old crack addict on his last legs, who pleads with him for a fix

              b) hangs around outside schools, employing youngsters to ingratiate themselves with the pupils, introducing them to crack and creating an unstoppable epidemic amongst school-age teenagers

              The consequences of each sale are entirely different.

              Hence, why targetting your markets correctly does make a huge difference, and why spreading your net to capture as many people as possible regardless of their suitability makes a massive difference regarding the state of the marketplace, and the quantity of unhappy buyers.

              Yes it's an analogy, and yes I used an extreme example to add emphasis - because without the extreme used to add emphasis it's far too easy to blur things and roll out the 'get-out' and claim that no harm has been done, and that the customer is to blame.

              When someone spins a yarn that for $97 you can buy your golden ticket to paradise - are they 'satisfying demand' or pulling a fast one?

              If it was the former, then why do they need a pre-sell or salespage? Why not just a headline with 'Golden Ticket Here' and a buy button for $97?
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              Roger Davis

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              • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
                Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                Hence, why targetting your markets correctly does make a huge difference, and why spreading your net to capture as many people as possible regardless of their suitably makes a massive difference regarding the state of the marketplace, and the quantity of unhappy buyers.

                There's the trouble; this whole thread involved someone who is not an 'unhappy' buyer.

                You cannot filter out irresponsible buyers, just deal responsibly with those who come to light.
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                • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                  Originally Posted by Richard A.Cox View Post

                  There's the trouble; this whole thread involved someone who is not an 'unhappy' buyer.
                  This is why I respect that she didn't request the refund
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                • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                  Hi Richard,

                  There's the trouble; this whole thread involved someone who is not an 'unhappy' buyer.

                  You cannot filter out irresponsible buyers, just deal responsibly with those who come to light.
                  That's a very good point - if we are absolutely convinced that the OP is an irresponsible buyer (no offence OP) as opposed to an unhappy one.

                  But let's look at the 'not so minor' details.

                  The OP stated this in a forum full of marketers, where the seller's No.2 cohort miraculously found their way here to make his points about why it is wrong for others to suggest refunding, and the actual seller is more than likely to be reading every word - and the OP is likely to also be aware of these things.

                  It's already been mentioned a few posts above that buyers don't want to risk falling out with the big guns by appearing as a serial refunder (who may, incidentally, become potential JV targets in future - although this is mainly a myth concocted for the obvious reasons).

                  It's just SO easy to accidentally miss a few minor details and use that grey area to your advantage, especially when you're a 'marketer' who spends every day surrounded by hype, persuasion, sales copy etc.

                  There is also a time for being real, if we are going to have a sensible discussion - and that means not missing key, important facts, unless we are to behave as 'irresponsibly' as the buyers we refer to.

                  How easy was it to ignore all of this, and make definite statements based on it being a fact that the OP was 100% telling the truth, rather than glossing over the truth because she doesn't want to create the wrong impression in the worst possible place to do so, yet also the best place to ask for advice (AND also advertise the item for sale for free - as has been proven by TimG)?

                  It's just TOO easy for marketers to find a get-out and justify anything and everything by blaming buyers.

                  But is there no place for responsible marketing? Are there no conceivable benefits of this approach? Do all potential customers want lies dressed as truth, rather than the real truth? Are ALL potential customers irresponsible, uneducated sheep?

                  {sidenote to OP - apologies for the strong wording, but it's useful for encouraging a healthy debate. I'm trying to avoid appearing to attach them to you, and trying to use hypothetical examples wherever possible - no offence intended}.

                  I haven't seen the MC 2.0 course in question, so I cannot comment on it's quality - but it would seem Mr. Kern gets very good feedback.

                  That aside, there is no doubt that the perceived value of these launches (in terms of revenue) is going through the roof.

                  Unfortunately, this dangles a huge carrot for everyone else to simply get the quick sale, minimise refunds and then move on to the next launch, the 2.0 version etc. A more short term, 'don't give a s**t' attitude towards the customer and the marketplace. And there is a very noticeable 'follow my leader' attitude in this market, with many of the 'followers' pushing further boundaries - which in turn reflects back (in the customer's mind) on ALL of us.

                  Just take a little surf around the IMosphere and take note of the huge groundswell of bitterness towards 'ebook sellers', gurus etc. For those of us who aren't currently part of the problem, it's a case of 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' or try to become 'part of the solution' - or so it would appear.

                  Hence why this subject is worth discussing at this point in time, in my opinion.
                  Signature


                  Roger Davis

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                • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                  Originally Posted by Richard A.Cox View Post

                  There's the trouble; this whole thread involved someone who is not an 'unhappy' buyer.

                  You cannot filter out irresponsible buyers, just deal responsibly with those who come to light.
                  I want to chime in on this, I think this discussion is a fun
                  and great one. A good question which seldom gets debated around.

                  ExRat made two great examples. Old vs young groups getting addicted to drugs. And who to sell too.

                  Now, if we want to explore it further, I would like to separate different kinds of purchases.

                  Let us leave the drugs out of the talk for this.

                  Someone mentioned vacations. Fairly, I will say this is true investing in a person and maybe their whole family.

                  Most vacations will leave a few memorable moments with them, for the rest of ones life.

                  Now here is how I see things, three categories mainly...

                  1 Experiences,
                  2 rational products
                  3 mecanical products.

                  Mecanical products are the "what you see is what you get". Tv, puter, shoes, clothes, house, car, mobile phone, toothbrush, shaving tools etc.

                  Experiences.. vacations, fishing trip, hunting trip, bungy jumping, scuba diving. etc.

                  Rational products, this are the real trickery category... because its a moral question more than the previous two...

                  It's the beauty is in "eye of the beholder", and boils down to some kind of educational advices.

                  Make money online is of this category. And tons of other subjects.

                  Now there is only one question, were do we draw the line here?

                  Who has the right to educate us on how to deal with our business and influence on our life?

                  And when do we have the right to tell someone to run to were the peppers dont even grows.

                  Taken the MC course from an analytical stand point we have to consider a few things....

                  Is this course step by step and easy to follow?

                  Are there enough evidence that actually making money following this course is possible?

                  And if there are a lot of case studies, how long did it take them to earn that money? (a lot of gurus never mention this)

                  What are the background of the teachers and those who earned big money following an Internet marketing course? education, and the like. ( I think this could save a lot of headaches)

                  Do this course do it's justice compared to what they are charging??

                  Are there better alternatives out there?? (probably most important question)

                  Now, we begin to see that, the real problem may not prevail in a moral question. It's more a question of.....clarifying the product, and great communications from both parties.

                  Of course its a moral question after this too, I agree with such statement.

                  But, its much easier then to statisfy and see who is in the wrong... the buyer or the seller.

                  Have a good day folks.

                  (sorry if my english is weak)
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        Question:

        While we're talking about the ethics of refunding a purchase
        made "in error", isn't there also an ethical dimension to
        SELLING "in error" - to less (or un-) qualified prospects?

        I've had a discussion about that prickly subject with Jeff Walker
        and Tony Blake around the time of PLF 2.0 launch, and am still
        wondering about it now in light of this exchange!

        Thoughts?

        All success
        Dr.Mani

        Well people are adults and should be able to decide if it is right for them or not. I didn't purchase the course because it wasn't right for what I am doing. I made a decision not to buy just like those that decided to purchase.

        It seems a lot of people here are not giving the buyers responsibility for their actions. As if the sellers are putting a voodoo curse on them to purchase.

        Sure their is hype and techniques used to help sales. It didn't work on me so why should we blame that on others. The only thing that matters is the product living up to what was sold. Not about people buying when they couldn't afford it.

        At least those are my thoughts.
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        • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          It seems a lot of people here are not giving the buyers responsibility for their actions. As if the sellers are putting a voodoo curse on them to purchase.
          I think you exaggerate quite a bit here.

          Of course they aren't putting any curse on someone, but, but but.

          Good salesmansship can evoke emotions in people and make them to do irriational things. Like buying things when they cant afford.

          Just give the OP some slack, plzzz.

          How do you earn money? , there are prospects out there who easily fall for great marketing and copywriting, specially if the stakes are high and the claims are over the top. Weightloss prodcuts, one example.

          I'll be back tomorrow. If the discussions are here.

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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

            I think you exaggerate quite a bit here.

            Of course they aren't putting any curse on someone, but, but but.

            Good salesmansship can evoke emotions in people and make them to do irriational things. Like buying things when they cant afford.

            Just give the OP some slack, plzzz.

            How do you earn money? , there are prospects out there who easily fall for great marketing and copywriting, specially if the stakes are high and the claims are over the top. Weightloss prodcuts, one example.

            I'll be back tomorrow. If the discussions are here.

            I am not even talking about the OP.

            If you are that easily influenced into purchasing things that you cannot afford than life will be very difficult for you.
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            • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I am not even talking about the OP.

              If you are that easily influenced into purchasing things that you cannot afford than life will be very difficult for you.

              Oh come on Thomas, we all do it. Hell, that's part of what MC is about...creating an emotional attachment to a product in order to justify the price and the purchase. It is called "Mass Control!"

              Again I will ask, if her house burnt down, would you still feel the same way? Have you participated in any of these Warrior fundraisers?

              People make mistakes all the time, lets not pretend that we're perfect. Sometimes people are buying the dream and when they realize the dream isn't coming, they wake up to a nightmare.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

                Oh come on Thomas, we all do it. Hell, that's part of what MC is about...creating an emotional attachment to a product in order to justify the price and the purchase. It is called "Mass Control!"

                Again I will ask, if her house burnt down, would you still feel the same way? Have you participated in any of these Warrior fundraisers?

                People make mistakes all the time, lets not pretend that we're perfect. Sometimes people are buying the dream and when they realize the dream isn't coming, they wake up to a nightmare.
                Don't even put us all in the same category.

                We do not all do it. A lot of people that do it will keep it and figure out a way to pay for it not return it because they couldn't afford it.

                If her house burnt down then she would have insurance.

                No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. The ones that take responsibility and work towards fixing their mistakes actually learn from them.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jim Hallmark
            Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

            I think you exaggerate quite a bit here.

            Of course they aren't putting any curse on someone, but, but but.

            Good salesmansship can evoke emotions in people and make them to do irriational things. Like buying things when they cant afford.

            OMG, did you even think before making such a nonsensical comment? NO ONE makes you do anything. You have a free will and can make rational choices or irrational choices. It is up to you and you alone.

            That sounds like something one of my kids would say. "They made me do it." My God, how ridiculous is that? That is part of the lack of personal responsibility that is so prevalent in our society today. There are too many people whining that someone forced them to do something against their will or someone made them mad, etc. I don't care how persuasive Frank Kern, Jeff Walker, John Reese or any other IM marketer is they don't make you push the buy button folks. That one is on you.

            How about thinking about all of the ramifications involved before making a purchase huh? Doing your due diligence and deciding on factors which may include the sellers credibility, whether or not the product meets your needs and whether or not you can afford it just to name a few. Then making an educated, logical decision on what is best for you.

            My 2.

            Jim
            Signature
            "Thoughts become things... choose the good ones!" Mike Dooley
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by Jim Hallmark View Post

              OMG, did you even think before making such a nonsensical comment? NO ONE makes you do anything. You have a free will and can make rational choices or irrational choices. It is up to you and you alone.

              That sounds like something one of my kids would say. "They made me do it." My God, how ridiculous is that? That is part of the lack of personal responsibility that is so prevalent in our society today. There are too many people whining that someone forced them to do something against their will or someone made them mad, etc. I don't care how persuasive Frank Kern, Jeff Walker, John Reese or any other IM marketer is they don't make you push the buy button folks. That one is on you.

              How about thinking about all of the ramifications involved before making a purchase huh? Doing your due diligence and deciding on factors which may include the sellers credibility, whether or not the product meets your needs and whether or not you can afford it just to name a few. Then making an educated, logical decision on what is best for you.

              My 2.

              Jim
              Amen Brother!
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    ExRat, Richard and Marc,

    This thread has suddenly become far too sensible now that you guys have appeared.

    Cheers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Roger, you've got a way with words that impresses me, and I'm not impressed very often. You are dead on as usual.

      I'm still not convinced that she is a satisfied buyer. If she were, she would have been extremely motivated, at least a little bit, to use the course and make some money with it. The fact that she has not taken action yet means that either she is not the type to take action or that the course didn't live up to its billing. I can't make a guess either way, as I'm not in the OP's head, however based on my previous comments I can see why she would not mention if she were unhappy with the course.

      Hell, I said I was disappointed and I got told that I was badmouthing Frank. Just imagine if she came on here and said she didn't like the course and wanted to return it. Suddenly you'd have all the "believers" on here bashing her for "not getting it," and she'd be made to look like a fool.

      I've gone through MC and it is a good course, but no course should be closed to criticism. However, you have a lot of people that rely on others talking good about the course so that they feel good about purchasing it. It is a cycle of madness that keeps people buying more stuff.

      We've thrown dozens of warrior fundraisers here and I'm betting some of the money went to people that made bad decisions, yet no one said anything about it. I'm just astounded by the fact that a no questions asked refund doesn't mean that in the eyes of a marketer...at least some of you.

      When I say no questions asked with my products, I mean it. I could care less why you want to refund the product, but I know that I'd rather you be happy than make a few bucks. The customer isn't always right and there will always be people that abuse the system, but that's business! If you can't handle a refund then you are in the wrong business.

      We should all consider ourselves fortunate that we can manifest money at will without having to take a shower and put on a suit. Some of you can make more money in a day than some make in a year, yet we fight over a few grand.

      We should spend more time focusing on the business of making money rather than wasting our time worrying about refund issues.

      If she really was happy with the course, I bet she'd have taken action by now.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    The point was NOT that she wanted to return the product - The point was that she wanted to do the respectable thing - and others came on board and tried to talk her into refunding. She did NOT want to refund. If others want to be irresponsible w/ their money and start refunding items when they get in a pinch, then fine. But I wouldn't come to public forums and try to talk others into joining in on your irresponsible behavior. People do read these posts you know?
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  • Profile picture of the author davebo
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by davebo View Post

      I'm sure nobody would have this ethics problem if they bought a shirt at Norstroms, lost their job, and then decided to return the shirt later while still observing the refund policy. If someone posted on a message board asking how to sell it, you definitely wouldn't get all these blowhards talking about ethics...you'd have people telling them to return the f-in shirt to nordstroms.
      Nope - you'd get the same responses. It all comes down to personal responsibility. The only way a free market works, is if a MAJORITY of people take responsibility for their finances and purchases. If everyone thought the way you do, believe me no one would make any money.
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      • Profile picture of the author davebo
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        • Profile picture of the author garyv
          Originally Posted by davebo View Post

          Free markets work because buyers and sellers decide price/terms based on market supply/demand (free of gov't intervention or other articifical "noise").
          That's right. And that all breaks down when half of that equation renigs on the terms.

          Believe me - the no questions asked refund policy only works because a majority of people do not think like you.
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          • Profile picture of the author sevenish
            Originally Posted by garyv View Post

            That's right. And that all breaks down when half of that equation renigs on the terms.
            When "half of that equation renegs on the terms" it's actionable in civil court in most countries.
            Believe me - the no questions asked refund policy only works because a majority of people do not think like you.
            It works when the value of the purchase matches a particular need, or set of needs, of the purchaser.

            What you've been describing in all of your posts on this topic is a distorted sort of "honour system" in which it's ok to promise something, such as an "iron-clad, no questions asked" refund policy to ease the prospect into a purchase, yet express outright indignation when it comes to delivering on that promise.

            That said, I'm sure Kern's product suited the needs and circumstances of the majority of his customers who did not seek a refund for obvious reasons.
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          • Profile picture of the author davebo
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

              Are you actually reading what you write? We're not talking about a buyer initiating a chargeback...we're talking about a refund within the terms.
              All refunds are within the terms - for any reason. Which is why it only works when a majority of people honor their payments. If a majority of people were unethical it wouldn't work. Using the product to it's fullest potential, and then refunding it would also fall under these type of "no questions asked" terms. But it would still be unethical.

              Obviously our ethics differ, which is why you'll never convince me that financial difficulty, is in itself a good enough reason to refund a product. The personal responsibility I'm talking about is the financial part. The OP never said she didn't like the product. Which is why she didn't want to refund the product. That's the right thing to do. It shouldn't be up to someone selling a product to do a financial background check on every person that buys a product. If you can't afford it, then you take a risk in buying it. If you're living from paycheck to paycheck and buy something that will put you at risk when you buy it, then that's the risk that YOU take.

              Could you get the refund? Obviously yes. I'm just thankful that at least at this present moment more than 50% of the people in this world are responsible human beings. However, it seems as though that percentage is shrinking.
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              • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
                Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                It shouldn't be up to someone selling a product to do a financial background check on every person that buys a product. If you can't afford it, then you take a risk in buying it. If you're living from paycheck to paycheck and buy something that will put you at risk when you buy it, then that's the risk that YOU take.
                Do you really think that applies in cases where the implication is that you will make far more money than you spent on the product? Why do some of these courses have payment plans?

                I think if everyone living paycheck to paycheck actually lived up to this rule, these launches wouldn't do nearly as well, since far fewer people would be able to buy the product.

                You have to realize that many people buying high-ticket IM products can't really afford them in the sense that they don't have the cash in their wallet- they put the product on a credit card and pay high interest on it, hoping they'll be able to make money from what they get in the product.

                That sure sounds like "irresponsible buyers" doesn't it? Wouldn't it be funny if all those people decided to stop buying these products since they don't have the cash? I can just imagine the panic here.

                So I guess it's OK to sell these products, knowing full well many of the buyers can't afford them, yet if one of them realizes that and decides to return the product, that means he is unethical and irresponsible. Funny how that works- the irresponsible ones who don't return the product are not a problem at all. It's like the ethics only kick in when it affects the seller, not the buyer.
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      • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        It all comes down to personal responsibility.
        Thats exactly right.

        And if the OP responsibility means she must get rid of the course (selling or refunding)- then thats her responsiblity to do so. And it will be Franks responsiblity to refund her under HIS TERMS.

        People can make bad desicions, especially when greed is involved. Frank takes all the risk- not the customer. Thats the point of a risk reversal.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    I love this forum!!!

    I don't take offense at what's being said. I went out on a limb purchasing the product. I thought that I would be able to pay for it with what was promised in the original bonus, but that changed. Things happen, so I just had to figure out how to deal with it, which is why I asked my original question.

    I looked up what "OP" means so I could figure out what everyone was calling me--finally found it on Urban Dictionary. I was afraid of the repercussions if I asked here! Note to newbies: OP = Original Poster. I am not dumb, just not yet fully educated in Internet Marketing. I am very willing and able to learn, which is why I bought MC2.

    I don't mind asking for a refund if the purchase doesn't meet my needs. I have only asked for two. One was for a program that was not able to do what it said it would, and the other for an online program that promised to deliver certain things but once I got in, I found I knew as much than the person doing the program. Incidentally, I still have not received either refund and I haven't made a stink about it to them. My web host owner tells me I'm just too nice. All of my sites went down last weekend and I didn't call him until Monday morning because I didn't want to interrupt his weekend.

    I know I'm weird--and I'm okay with that. If I get too much change I go back and give it to the cashier. A couple of times I've gotten to the car and found things I forgot under the shopping cart--I bring them back into the store to pay for them. I am certainly not perfect, but I believe in being honest. I love to help people and if I didn't need money to live, I would be happy doing things for free. I already do too much of that--I hate to ask people for money! I know, not the makings of a good businessperson.

    I have started going through the course. I do not have a list yet to do the Four Day Cash Machine. I do recognize what people are doing when they send me "Thank You" emails now. Core Influence is an awesome video and has helped me to think of things differently already. The other items are great and I have no doubt they will work, but they take time. I have to make my second installment payment to Frank, and I don't have it right now. I've got nine children, four of whom still live at home, and almost four grandchildren. My husband was let go from his job. We've been dealing with a very expensive, cross-country, year-long court battle with my ex-husband. We all have our sob stories--they are situations to deal with, not to be used as excuses. I am fortunate to do virtual assistant website work for a great online janitorial business, but I do want to be able to learn IM so that I can be debt-free and have time to do the things I want to in life. I am a big genealogist--I want to go to Norway and Sweden one day to meet my relatives who live there. See, I told you I was weird--I don't dream of going to Hawaii or surfing in California--I dream of dead people and their kinfolk!

    I have been working on things--I have some mini-niche type sites set up. I am learning to drive traffic and build lists. Either I am doing it wrong or it just takes time! . I have also been working on a PHP Link Directory site for my county--started from scratch, not knowing anything. I have a long way to go, but this is what I have so far: http://www.sherburnearea.com. I don't think it's bad for my first attempt. I planned to do this before I ever heard of the "Offline Goldmine" niche. I am teaching my 13- and 15-year old children how to do things that can help. I just received an email from a warrior is has a Filipino assistant I can share. My prospects are very bright and when I have questions, someone here on the forum is able to answer them. That's very cool!

    I do want to have a good reputation. I'm not really worried about being put on the blacklist and "not being part of the club." I figured it would be a long time before any gurus would even know who I was. I'm certainly not trying to suck up to them and look good. I've read enough times here on the forum that it takes a long time to build up a good reputation and a short time to destroy it. I think we've seen examples of that just in this thread. I don't know the people here well enough to know who is connected to whom, or is famous, or is a jerk. I see names and read responses without any preconceived notions. I do know that a lot of people have taken time to give answers to my question and I appreciate that.

    I knew when I bought my program that I was taking a risk. That was my choice. After reading all of the responses here, I probably could ask for a refund, but I still don't feel like that's the answer. I wish I had a really good WSO that I could offer and just earn the money I need right now. I appreciate Jason's offer of the bonuses, to me and to TimG--they do look very good. And I appreciate the offers to buy the program from me. I am going to let things settle down a bit and then decide what to do.

    Thanks again to all, and I'll let you know when my full memoir is out! Hey, would that be a good WSO?!

    Terrie

    P.S. Since I unexpectedly have obtained the attention of the forum, any gurus may feel free to PM me and say Hi!
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Terrie,

      Well if nothing else, you're helping to make people who have come to consider their customers as just a number in a paypal receipt, or an email addy in an autoresponder, realise that behind the numbers there is a living, breathing, human being with desires and goals etc. That can't be a bad thing?

      OP is actually one of the words that is underlined in the forum with a dotted line, and if you hover over it a little pop-up appears spelling out the meaning of the abbreviation.

      I'm pleased you didn't take offence at some of the terms I used in the discussion.

      Hi Davebo,

      Well done maverick
      That old chestnut. The thing is Davebo, when you come blundering into threads heavy-handedly, throwing insults around and condemnations without explanation or any solid basis - you do no-one any favours. If you could just learn to contain yourself and deliver a reasoned contribution to the discussion, you wouldn't leave as much room for 'the other side' to reply in kind - or simply ignore you.

      That way they have nowhere to go except to disappear, or explain themselves, or offer some sort of equivalently reasoned counter-position.

      All that you do is give them a different and convenient focus, so that they can ignore the questions that demand explanations, and conveniently tar everyone else with the same brush as you. Why not dispense with the sledgehammer and try a nut-cracker?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Originally Posted by majidmaskat View Post

    ebay has a lot of resourceful and valuable stuff
    A little tip. Try reading threads before posting...

    :rolleyes:

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    SMTMFRD as Kern would say.

    (Send Me The Mother F***** Refund Dude)

    I think part of the problem does lie with the OP. It seems she has not herself made a decision and is unsure what to do. She herself has admitted to being a bit of a newbie and perhaps has been a bit gullible, brought on by the promise of wealth, which was nurtured via the Kern product launch process. But then again newbies as well as more experienced IMers get sent the same emails and videos.

    So Kern himself has evoked this product desire in her and if the motivation has fallen after the sale then such is life. How often does this happen? Like every fricking day a thousand times, all over the world.

    I say again, as Kern has offered a hassle free refund for any reason then he will factually have earned more sales because of it. If a percentage end up refunding then that is all factored in anyway.

    Now this isn't me advocating a refund in the lady's case.

    However, if the lady doesn't want to use the materials or can't use the materials to make herself more money for whatever reason, then she should do what Kern himself suggested and return it for a refund.

    It's no good feeling great with oneself and taking the high ground about offering clients a full refund and reaping the benefits of more sales because of this, and then getting upset if someone does take the person up on the refund offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    1. In DOZENS of threads I've seen in my time on the WF, when a seller starts complaining about some off-the-wall refund request, the overwhelming response is, "just refund and move on - it's a cost of doing business." Why all the hate when looking at the other side?

    2. Yes, the OP has ethics. I'd guess that for every person on one fringe or the other throwing insults back and forth at the drop of the hat, there are 50 in the middle who always try to do the right thing - regardless of the personal cost. She should be recognized for being "one of the good guys."

    3. I suspect that Jason has a "Frank Kern" Google alert (just commenting on the pattern, not judging). Maybe one for "Jason Moffatt," too. I've just triggered both of them. =D
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    This is a fascinating debate, not just because of the subject matter (which seems to vary post by post) but also from an observational standpoint - it's like watching a car crash or a fight between a pack of dogs - I believe someone once called it the rubberneck effect, but I forget who.

    Is someone able to point me to the website of The International Federation of Internet Marketers so I can look up the 'definition' of Internet Marketing Ethics? I've been looking but I can't seem to find it.

    And that's the problem, this argument is about a purely subjective set of guidelines that aren't written down and exist as values and beliefs as unique as the head they reside in.

    Whether or not the OP should/could request a refund is not the point. As far as I can recall, no-one has suggested that this is not an option, except for the OP. She doesn't want to because
    I don't feel good about returning it
    that's how she feels. There's absolutely no arguing with how the lady feels. It would appear that her values are telling her not to return it.

    Now, if your values don't agree with her - so what?

    Argue all you like, ain't going to make a jot of difference.

    Peter
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

      This is a fascinating debate, not just because of the subject matter (which seems to vary post by post) but also from an observational standpoint - it's like watching a car crash or a fight between a pack of dogs - I believe someone once called it the rubberneck effect, but I forget who.

      Is someone able to point me to the website of The International Federation of Internet Marketers so I can look up the 'definition' of Internet Marketing Ethics? I've been looking but I can't seem to find it.

      And that's the problem, this argument is about a purely subjective set of guidelines that aren't written down and exist as values and beliefs as unique as the head they reside in.

      Whether or not the OP should/could request a refund is not the point. As far as I can recall, no-one has suggested that this is not an option, except for the OP. She doesn't want to because that's how she feels. There's absolutely no arguing with how the lady feels. It would appear that her values are telling her not to return it.

      Now, if your values don't agree with her - so what?

      Argue all you like, ain't going to make a jot of difference.

      Peter

      But arguing is much more fun

      You are right, the debate is subjective, which is what makes it very fascinating to discuss/debate/argue. I thought we were beyond the OP's feelings by now, but I could be wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author davebo
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
      Originally Posted by davebo View Post

      The point was that people like Jason "Handshake is a deal" mofit, was trying to get across this point that it's unethical to ask for a refund (for any reason) on a product that was sold using a "100% money back guarantee". What you had there was a marketer trying to do a manipulate a buyer who had a right to getting a refund by saying it was unethical.
      Mmmm, not wishing to prolong a pointless argument (but fearing I might) point me to the post where Jason said
      it's unethical to ask for a refund (for any reason) on a product that was sold using a "100% money back guarantee"
      I've just gone through this thread and couldn't see any reference to that.

      So please, just say what post number so we can have a clear and just discussion.

      Peter
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

        Mmmm, not wishing to prolong a pointless argument (but fearing I might) point me to the post where Jason said I've just gone through this thread and couldn't see any reference to that.

        So please, just say what post number so we can have a clear and just discussion.

        Peter

        I don't believe he said that (for any reason)...however he did say getting a refund because you can't afford it is unethical.

        We are all entitled to our own opinions here and I think this has been a very educating argument.

        I think claims of "now I know who not to do business with" are a little over the top though. There have been many overreactions in this thread, myself included, but it has been a good time. I don't think the debate is over, but it looks like the thread is losing its legs.

        Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. No use crying over spilled milk.
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        • Profile picture of the author garyv
          Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post


          I think claims of "now I know who not to do business with" are a little over the top though.
          Not really - I would not want to do business w/ someone and have to wait for months to deposit my money, until that person can decide whether or not they can afford it. Thankfully most people are not like that. So I'm willing to do business w/ anyone, at least once. However I'd be a fool to do business w/ someone who has made it apparent that they may ask for a refund if they later can't budget their money. Who wants to be looking over their shoulder waiting for a refund.
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          • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
            Originally Posted by garyv View Post

            Not really - I would not want to do business w/ someone and have to wait for months to deposit my money, until that person can decide whether or not they can afford it. Thankfully most people are not like that. So I'm willing to do business w/ anyone, at least once. However I'd be a fool to do business w/ someone who has made it apparent that they may ask for a refund if they later can't budget their money. Who wants to be looking over their shoulder waiting for a refund.

            If you feel that way, then why would you ever offer a guarantee? More specifically, an insane no questions asked I don't care if you keep the stuff guarantee? The easy way to fix that is don't offer a guarantee.

            Again we are back to the point of who a guarantee is supposed to serve. Does it serve the seller so they can capitalize on people that are on the fence, or is it for the buyer that has the chance to test a product and see if it lives up to its price. Better yet, how about it is there for both the buyer and seller to prevent ill will and guilt from either side?
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            • Profile picture of the author garyv
              Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

              If you feel that way, then why would you ever offer a guarantee? More specifically, an insane no questions asked I don't care if you keep the stuff guarantee? The easy way to fix that is don't offer a guarantee.

              Because like I said, a majority of people are not like that, so it makes it viable to offer such a deal. Believe me, once a majority of the world starts thinking like you, the guarantees will be over.
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              • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                Because like I said, a majority of people are not like that, so it makes it viable to offer such a deal. Believe me, once a majority of the world starts thinking like you, the guarantees will be over.

                So you are saying the refund policy is meant to benefit the seller only? Ok then...now I know where you stand.

                The way I see it is this...lets say I own a bookstore and someone comes in and starts spending every day in the coffeeshop reading the books to completion. Do I kick them out? Of course not, they obviously need the money more than I do.

                What if they take the book home, don't open it, and decide to bring it back...sure, no problem!

                What if they take it home, read it, and bring it back untarnished...Might be unethical but I'm still going to offer a refund. I'm certainly not going to publicly accuse them of being unethical.

                This is business and all sorts of crazy shit happens. We are squabbling over a few bills here. For every person like the OP, there are probably 10 more that buy the course, copy it, and then send it back. You have to factor refunds in when you do business...it is a loss that should be calculated in the launch process.

                I see you have a red light product...I'm guessing it is on clickbank? Ever have to give a refund?
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                • Profile picture of the author garyv
                  Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

                  So you are saying the refund policy is meant to benefit the seller only? Ok then...now I know where you stand.

                  The way I see it is this...lets say I own a bookstore and someone comes in and starts spending every day in the coffeeshop reading the books to completion. Do I kick them out? Of course not, they obviously need the money more than I do.

                  What if they take the book home, don't open it, and decide to bring it back...sure, no problem!

                  What if they take it home, read it, and bring it back untarnished...Might be unethical but I'm still going to offer a refund. I'm certainly not going to publicly accuse them of being unethical.

                  This is business and all sorts of crazy shit happens. We are squabbling over a few bills here. For every person like the OP, there are probably 10 more that buy the course, copy it, and then send it back. You have to factor refunds in when you do business...it is a loss that should be calculated in the launch process.

                  I see you have a red light product...I'm guessing it is on clickbank? Ever have to give a refund?
                  - And once again you are getting your own unique meaning out of my post.

                  No the refund policy is not for the seller. But for "ethical" buyers & sellers. With your lline of thinking, it would make no sense to pay for ANY product that offers a no questions asked guarantee. It wold only make sense to buy it - use it - and then refund it. Because it is after all a "no questions asked" guarantee. Why wouldl anyone in their right mind pay for something when they could get it for free right?

                  That's where you have to rely on ethics. And like I said before - thankfully most people don't share your sense of ethics.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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                    Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                    - And once again you are getting your own unique meaning out of my post.

                    No the refund policy is not for the seller. But for "ethical" buyers & sellers. With your lline of thinking, it would make no sense to pay for ANY product that offers a no questions asked guarantee. It wold only make sense to buy it - use it - and then refund it. Because it is after all a "no questions asked" guarantee. Why wouldl anyone in their right mind pay for something when they could get it for free right?

                    That's where you have to rely on ethics. And like I said before - thankfully most people don't share your sense of ethics.

                    Giving a refund is a way to generate more sales. If everyone took a refund than giving a refund guarantee would be ineffective because you were not making any additional sales or even losing money.

                    You would think it was a easy concept to know based on this being a marketing forum. Gary I understood what you meant.
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                  • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                    Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                    - And once again you are getting your own unique meaning out of my post.

                    No the refund policy is not for the seller. But for "ethical" buyers & sellers. With your lline of thinking, it would make no sense to pay for ANY product that offers a no questions asked guarantee. It wold only make sense to buy it - use it - and then refund it. Because it is after all a "no questions asked" guarantee. Why wouldl anyone in their right mind pay for something when they could get it for free right?

                    That's where you have to rely on ethics. And like I said before - thankfully most people don't share your sense of ethics.
                    Why doesn't everyone get this?

                    I'm officially going crazy!

                    This almost makes too much sense.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                    Originally Posted by garyv View Post

                    - And once again you are getting your own unique meaning out of my post.

                    No the refund policy is not for the seller. But for "ethical" buyers & sellers. With your lline of thinking, it would make no sense to pay for ANY product that offers a no questions asked guarantee. It wold only make sense to buy it - use it - and then refund it. Because it is after all a "no questions asked" guarantee. Why wouldl anyone in their right mind pay for something when they could get it for free right?

                    That's where you have to rely on ethics. And like I said before - thankfully most people don't share your sense of ethics.

                    Look, quit trying to throw me under the bus because I disagree with you. This has nothing to do with my ethics, it has to do with what a seller should be used to accepting. I don't believe it is ethical to buy something, use it, and return it...but it happens and as long as you have guarantees people are going to do it!

                    Take my WSO for example...someone asked me if it would work for their specific needs. I told them to buy it, see if they thought it did (I was positive it would) and if they didn't agree, to ask for a refund. I never hear back after they purchased, so I am assuming they were OK with it.

                    I'm so interested in pleasing customers, that I developed a product based on the fact that I thought the #1 product in that particular niche was over-hyped and useless to most people. I thought people deserved better.

                    As a buyer, I never go into a purchase thinking that I'm going to rip off the seller. Some might, but you can't stop that. In the case of the OP, she didn't want a refund...fair enough. However, if she did, why should she be labeled as unethical or a douchebag? I'm not interested in whether she wants a refund, I'm interested in the response she would have received had she chosen to get one.

                    Different products have different refund policies...take a look at X, who is one of the most crass guys I've seen (as a seller). He offers a cool guarantee, but I wouldn't want to abuse it.

                    Now look at Kern's video...btw, have you watched it? He's basically said to refund it if you have a single iota of doubt if you should have purchased it. That's where the difference lies.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post


                      Now look at Kern's video...btw, have you watched it? He's basically said to refund it if you have a single iota of doubt if you should have purchased it. That's where the difference lies.
                      She didn't use the course or or have any doubts about the course. So yes, a lot of us see where the differences are because we have been saying the same thing all along. I just don't think you do.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                        She didn't use the course or or have any doubts about the course. So yes, a lot of us see where the differences are because we have been saying the same thing all along. I just don't think you do.

                        Did you watch the video?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

                          Did you watch the video?
                          Yes. Did you?
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                          • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                            Yes. Did you?

                            HEY BELKNAP!

                            DROP THE THREAD.....MOVE AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!
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                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Richard A.Cox View Post

                              HEY BELKNAP!

                              DROP THE THREAD.....MOVE AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!
                              NEVER COX.
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      • Profile picture of the author davebo
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
          Originally Posted by davebo View Post

          Posts 24,29,33,35,36....there are tons of them like that in this thread. I didn't use quotes, but I was paraphrasing his posts.
          Obviously your interpretation of those posts (not all are Jason Moffatt's btw) are different from mine.

          Never mind.

          Peter
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          • Profile picture of the author davebo
            Banned
            [DELETED]
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

              How else would you interpret a post like this? He obviously is saying that, even though a refund policy is no strings attached, there are unethical and ethical refunds.

              "I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that."
              Back to the car crash

              I would interpret is as saying the following:

              The lady didn't want a refund. Why are you telling her to refund when it seems to be against her principles?

              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                Back to the car crash

                I would interpret is as saying the following:

                The lady didn't want a refund. Why are you telling her to refund when it seems to be against her principles?

                Martin
                Martin,

                That is the obvious interpretation...

                This has been the underlying point throughout this thread. For some reason, it's either being rejected or ignored.

                For the life of me--I can't figure out why anyone would have a hard time with this one.

                Your common sense is refreshing.

                Take care
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              • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                Back to the car crash

                I would interpret is as saying the following:

                The lady didn't want a refund. Why are you telling her to refund when it seems to be against her principles?

                Martin
                Thanks Martin,

                You said what I couldn't be arsed to say.

                Peter
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              • Profile picture of the author askloz
                I think a lot of people are starting to sway away from the original post.

                The advice given was to ask for a refund, INSTEAD of selling it on ebay.

                I know that was what I advised, since selling stuff on ebay for the price you want is hard enough as it is.
                Some ppl are getting to the point where ppl are blatantly blaming others who say ask for a refund if you don't like the product. Or just didn't feel it was for you or what ever.

                That certainly was not my point, my point was since there was a refund guarantee, it makes perfect sense to ask for it rather than selling it on ebay and short yourself out on 50% or more of the original price, it makes no logical reasoning to sell yourself short out of pocket when a guarantee like that refund policy is in place.

                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                Back to the car crash

                I would interpret is as saying the following:

                The lady didn't want a refund. Why are you telling her to refund when it seems to be against her principles?

                Martin
                Signature
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                • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                  Originally Posted by askloz View Post

                  That certainly was not my point, my point was since there was a refund guarantee, it makes perfect sense to ask for it rather than selling it on ebay and short yourself out on 50% or more of the original price, it makes no logical reasoning to sell yourself short out of pocket when a guarantee like that refund policy is in place.
                  And no one has suggested that she shouldn't get a refund. Also--it hasn't even been implied that it would be unethical to do so.

                  More than anything--there has been an appreciation of the OP's reasoning for not taking Frank Kern up on his refund policy.

                  Of course--Mass Control has a 100% no questions asked money back guarantee--everyone here that is utilizing .1% of their brain--understands that.

                  In fact, one of the many incentives for buying Mass Control, was the money back guarantee.

                  However, the OP felt that it wouldn't be 'right'(which is another word for 'ethical') for her to refund a course that she found value in--just because, in hindsight, she realized that she couldn't afford it.

                  The lack of understanding and comprehension in this thread, by some, is unsettling--and borderline sad.

                  The craziest shit about this debate, is that--just like any argument--one side actually believes that they are making more sense than the other.
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                  • Profile picture of the author askloz
                    Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

                    And no one has suggested that she shouldn't get a refund. Also--it hasn't even been implied that it would be unethical to do so.
                    what's the bloody difference? if would help if people read the bloom'n thread / initial posts before starting a war.

                    Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

                    More than anything--there has been an appreciation of the OP's reasoning for not taking Frank Kern up on his refund policy.
                    really, then you need to go back and read the posts again, nothing but implying how it was unethical to ask for a refund.

                    and why should there be reasoning for her to lose approx 50% on the money if she sold it on ebay... sheesh, come on... that's not exactly I would call fair.

                    If your wife said she was going to put it on ebay and would foreknown she wouldn't get $2k for it, and she wasn't working, and you were the one providing the bread and butter, you'd jump to the chance to take up the refund policy that is in place.

                    Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post


                    The lack of understanding and comprehension in this thread, by some, is unsettling--and borderline sad.
                    tell me about it,and you're one of them.
                    Signature
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                  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                    Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

                    And no one has suggested that she shouldn't get a refund. Also--it hasn't even been implied that it would be unethical to do so.

                    More than anything--there has been an appreciation of the OP's reasoning for not taking Frank Kern up on his refund policy.

                    Of course--Mass Control has a 100% no questions asked money back guarantee--everyone here that is utilizing .1% of their brain--understands that.

                    In fact, one of the many incentives for buying Mass Control, was the money back guarantee.

                    However, the OP felt that it wouldn't be 'right'(which is another word for 'ethical') for her to refund a course that she found value in--just because, in hindsight, she realized that she couldn't afford it.

                    The lack of understanding and comprehension in this thread, by some, is unsettling--and borderline sad.

                    The craziest shit about this debate, is that--just like any argument--one side actually believes that they are making more sense than the other.
                    Since we're starting this up again...I'm going to fix a few points for you:

                    #1 It has been implied by almost half of the people in the thread that returning it would be unethical and downright terrible.

                    #2 I agree...

                    #3 Yes, said but true.
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                    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
                      Do you guys realize that no one is disagreeing with you?

                      Do you guys realize that no one thinks that this woman would be wrong for requesting a refund?

                      I'm curious.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
                        Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

                        Do you guys realize that no one is disagreeing with you?

                        Do you guys realize that no one thinks that this woman would be wrong for requesting a refund?

                        I'm curious.

                        Marc, while you may not think so, I could give you 3 names of people that do...
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by davebo View Post

              How else would you interpret a post like this? He obviously is saying that, even though a refund policy is no strings attached, there are unethical and ethical refunds.

              "I was a bit shocked at the replies that some Warriors were giving here to just simply refund. That's totally pathetic and I'm glad you have morals that would prohibit you from doing just that."
              No he didn't say that. You keep interpreting it differently because that is your style.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

            Obviously your interpretation of those posts (not all are Jason Moffatt's btw) are different from mine.

            Never mind.

            Peter
            Peter, I don't think davebo is even on this planet based on the things he posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    Let's be honest here. Wasting thirty minutes reading this
    thread when I know better, makes ME the biggest douchebag.

    Although, that dude who called that other dude a douchebag,
    might be a bigger one. That was a pretty douchebag thing to
    do.

    Douchebagfully yours,
    Douchbag
    Signature

    We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork.
    ~ Milton Friedman

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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    It's not mofit, it's Moffatt.
    Signature

    siggy taking a break...

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    • Profile picture of the author tommyp
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      It's not mofit, it's Moffatt.
      I don't think they really care.

      Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

      We should start an Internet Marketing Fight Club and play it out just like the movie.

      Meet up at offline spots to talk about this same shit face to face.

      If these types of debates, which happen often in this forum, were happening in person,
      hands would get thrown and it could get ugly.

      I just bought Internet Marketing Fight Club and it's a live site too - LOL

      So, who's down? Let's see how tough you are and if you would say in person what you say on here while sitting safe behind your computer
      I'd click that link to learn more but I'm not in the mood for possibly getting rick rolled.

      But hey, pay for my expenses and I'll go. Be sure to invite a few specific sellers that I would love to meet. I'll send you the list if it's a deal and reimburse you after I terrorize them into paying me. Are samurai swords allowed on planes?
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      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by tommyp View Post

        I'd click that link to learn more but I'm not in the mood for possibly getting rick rolled.

        But hey, pay for my expenses and I'll go. Be sure to invite a few specific sellers that I would love to meet. I'll send you the list if it's a deal and reimburse you after I terrorize them into paying me. Are samurai swords allowed on planes?
        It's just a clip of the most GORIEST Fight Club Fight Scene.

        If you want to see someone get knocked the f**k out, then go there.

        But I'm down to meet up one way or the other. Fight or not. LOL
        Signature

        "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

        Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

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  • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
    Clearly, next time Frank Kern plans a product launch, we will all have to adopt the crash position and wear aluminum headgear, so he cannot read our minds.

    Next, disconnect your PC - not just from the internet- safer to unplug it completely.

    Then, change your name and, if asked, deny having ever heard of the internet.

    Go live in a tent village with all the other refugees and only venture out when you get the all-clear.

    Then, when you have finally reconnected to the internet, email Frank Kern and ask for a refund, just in case.
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    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
      Originally Posted by Richard A.Cox View Post

      Clearly, next time Frank Kern plans a product launch, we will all have to adopt the crash position and wear aluminum headgear, so he cannot read our minds.

      Next, disconnect your PC - not just from the internet- safer to unplug it completely.

      Then, change your name and, if asked, deny having ever heard of the internet.

      Go live in a tent village with all the other refugees and only venture out when you get the all-clear.

      Then, when you have finally reconnected to the internet, email Frank Kern and ask for a refund, just in case.
      This is the funniest thing ever.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
        There really isn't a Frank Kern...he's like Mullah Omar - just a figurehead.

        Anyone ever seen Wag the Dog?
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
    Isn't it time to put this one to bed?

    Granted, some people want to keep the thread going, just to maintain it and provoke (non) argument.

    Every additional post gives those people something to feed off, it adds fuel to the non-argument.

    From a marketing (and pretty much every other) perspective, this subject is covered, every which way.

    For some time now, it's just been yada-yada-yada.

    Lets move on, people.



    And that means YOU!
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by Richard A.Cox View Post

      Isn't it time to put this one to bed?

      Granted, some people want to keep the thread going, just to maintain it and provoke (non) argument.

      Every additional post gives those people something to feed off, it adds fuel to the non-argument.

      From a marketing (and pretty much every other) perspective, this subject is covered, every which way.

      For some time now, it's just been yada-yada-yada.

      Lets move on, people.



      And that means YOU!

      I tried earlier...it just didn't take.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
    *sigh*

    Guess some people just like to argue.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard A.Cox
    Oh hey Nathan it's really easy.

    Just move away from the thread...

    Nothing to see here.....
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by Richard A.Cox View Post

      Oh hey Nathan it's really easy.

      Just move away from the thread...

      Nothing to see here.....

      Well you see, I've got this personality quirk where I don't like to leave an argument without a handshake.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        Well you see, I've got this personality quirk where I don't like to leave an argument without a handshake.
        Screw all that handshake bull sh*t!!

        let's settle it "The Other Way" LOL
        Signature

        "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

        Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

          Screw all that handshake bull sh*t!!

          let's settle it "The Other Way" LOL
          I better shave my head for Fight Club. lol
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        Well you see, I've got this personality quirk where I don't like to leave an argument without a handshake.
        Nathan, I don't take these arguments personally. I am sure we all (but davebo ) would have a few beers and laugh about it.

        We all don't have to agree on this. Ethics and responsibility is a personal thing. We will never agree on this stuff.


        Cheers,
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        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Nathan, I don't take these arguments personally. I am sure we all (but davebo ) would have a few beers and laugh about it.

          We all don't have to agree on this. Ethics and responsibility is a personal thing. We will never agree on this stuff.


          Cheers,

          I don't either, and although they are fun...when the day is over it is important to remember that there's more to life than money. A drink does sound good doesn't it? Maybe that's why I'm so agitated...I haven't had one in nearly 7 months!

          Life wouldn't be any fun if we all agreed

          And I'd still do business with any of you
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          • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
            Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

            I don't either, and although they are fun...when the day is over it is important to remember that there's more to life than money. A drink does sound good doesn't it? Maybe that's why I'm so agitated...I haven't had one in nearly 7 months!

            Life wouldn't be any fun if we all agreed

            And I'd still do business with any of you
            No drinks until after hands are thrown
            Signature

            "Human thoughts have the tendency to transform themselves into their physical equivalent." Earl Nightingale

            Super Affiliates Hang Out Here

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            • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
              Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

              No drinks until after hands are thrown

              Ok, its a deal!
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Wow... now my head hurts.

    Interesting. That's all I'll say.
    Signature

    Are you protecting your on line business? If you have a website, blog, ecommerce store you NEED to back it up regularly. Your webhost will only protect you so much. Check out Quirkel. Protect yourself.

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  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    Someone laugh at my new Avatar, you heartless douchebags!







    [EDIT]: The hilarity had to end. :rolleyes:
    Avatar back to normal.
    Signature

    We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork.
    ~ Milton Friedman

    <