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Enforcing the age limit here: You must be 18+ to be a member

by Paul Myers
146 replies
Okay. This probably sucks more than any post I've made here, but it has to happen:

If you are under the age of 18, or claim to be, you can no longer post here. That includes both the paid advertising and the discussion sections. And no, it does not matter if the minimum age requirement in your country is different than in the US.

We didn't pay much attention to this for quite a while, mostly because we know the majority of people claiming to be under 18 are faking their age to create a chosen "persona," and we have no way to know the real age of any poster.

This has to do with contracts and agreements, not anyone's intelligence or maturity. And I hate it as much as anyone. But, there it is.

I'll let the legal beagles explain it, if they like.

The trigger was the presence of someone claiming to be 12 years old. That's not even old enough to sign up at any site that collects data on members without a parent's permission, much less to enter into legal agreements.

And no, we will not amend it to fit the COPPA standard of 13+. Again, this is a business forum, and being active here involves contracts. Which include the one you agree to when you join.

Sorry, folks. I truly am.


Paul
#age #enforcing #limit #member
  • Profile picture of the author admin
    Administrator
    Yes this is really hard. Especially since there are some 16 year olds that work harder and in many cases 'smarter' than most grown ups I know.
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  • Profile picture of the author pdrs
    ahhh that is too bad - I recently bought a website off of a 16 year old who blew me away with some of the stuff he had been up to. Wish I had of had that sort of insight/foresight when I was 16 !!
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    • Profile picture of the author Walter Parrish
      Originally Posted by pdrs View Post

      ahhh that is too bad - I recently bought a website off of a 16 year old who blew me away with some of the stuff he had been up to. Wish I had of had that sort of insight/foresight when I was 16 !!
      lol

      Be careful a 16 year old can take that site back any time they feel like far as I know, but I'm no lawyer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bryan Kumar
    Especially since there are some 16 year olds that work harder and in many cases 'smarter' than most grown ups I know.
    And are often better behaved...
    Sigh... sad but true...
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  • Profile picture of the author WesBlaylock
    Children's Online Privacy Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and

    COPPA - Children's Online Privacy Protection
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    ..warrior since 1998!
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    Small silver lining: the smart and talented kids will find a way to keep on keeping on. Not suggesting rule breaking or anything like that, but saying some are smart enough to find other ways to learn, grow and sell.

    Does this mean we can start drinking and posting again ?
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Small silver lining: the smart and talented kids will find a wu
      I've been trying to find a wu for a long time now...
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

        I've been trying to find a wu for a long time now...
        I meant a Western Union so they could still get paid.

        Yeah, there was no saving that typo. 16 year olds type better than some of us too *sigh*.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Small silver lining: the smart and talented kids will find a way to keep on keeping on.

      And nothing says they can't read the forum posts - so they'll still get lots of golden nuggets.
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      nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        And nothing says they can't read the forum posts - so they'll still get lots of golden nuggets.
        In most cases for me it was the reverse, I would get more golden nuggets from the kids than they would ever get from an old fart like me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Pardon me for saying so but sometimes the law is a farce.

          Yes, I understand what you're saying Paul but this law is still laughable. Not your fault, nor Allen's, I appreciate your position, however, excluding young folks from conducting their business online (or anywhere come to that) is discrimination plain and simple.

          What if a parent or legal guardian of said under 18 year old was willing to take the legal responsibility for their child's business upon this forum? Would this work as a viable workaround? Which still leaves you guys less culpable perhaps under U.S. law for any action taken by the authorities if knowingly or otherwise you allowed these young folks to continue conducting their business using this forum as a vehicle to increase their financial freedom.

          Unfamiliar with U.S. law regarding this matter, you're both obviously in a better position than I am to know the answer to this proposed idea.

          Off topic slightly but I started business some 31 years ago at the age of 14. Schooling is all about preparing a child for their adult life. Schooling is all about educating a child, so that when they leave school they can fend for themselves, get a job and become a meaningful contributor to the rest of society.

          Now, if some under 18's start up their own business surely this demonstrates true entrepreneurial spirit on their part. An action which should be encouraged and applauded NOT stamped down on and worse, now, limiting their chance of financial independence.

          Let's say you've already got a minor on this forum, who whilst under 18 has already set up and established their business. And they're using this forum as a means to grow their business. They're already making money. They have already entered a verbal contract perhaps based on a handshake agreement with other parties on the forum to supply goods, products or services.

          How will their business now stand if their rights are taken away from them, which action in and of itself either directly or indirectly causes them not to be in a position to fulfill these contractual agreements / arrangements which they already have in place with other people?

          How would you guys stand legally if now, you (WF), through no fault of your own had to take action which caused them (under 18's) severe financial loss or worse case scenario, caused their fledgling business to collapse altogether? What are the potential ramifications regarding this? (Obviously a complicated area of law).

          Just throwing a few thoughts out there into the arena.

          Personally, although not a citizen of the United States laws and regulations directly, I do believe the emotional damage which could be caused as a result of this change of direction could indeed have further negative implications on these young people's lives than if the to date situation was allowed to continue unabated.


          Mark Andrews
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Mark - there's a big difference. Thirty years ago you weren't doing business online. You were working with people who could see your age and knew who they were dealing with.

            Online you have no idea who you are dealing with. For the WF, it makes sense to do what it can to enforce the legal age rule that's been in place for years.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Mark - there's a big difference. Thirty years ago you weren't doing business online. You were working with people who could see your age and knew who they were dealing with.

              Online you have no idea who you are dealing with. For the WF, it makes sense to do what it can to enforce the legal age rule that's been in place for years.
              I well understand your point Kay, I'm keeping a neutral position, just throwing some further thoughts out there.

              Either way now the solution will obviously have knock on effects.

              It's the younger folks I feel sorry for, I don't believe they should be excluded on age grounds which I believe is discrimination. Obviously not the fault of either Allen or the WF. The law is just plain daft in this case.

              Hence why I asked the question provided as a means to a possible workaround stroke solution, what if the parent or legal guardian of said under 18 year old agreed to take the legal responsibility for the activity of the under 18 year old concerned?

              Would this work? Is this feasible?

              Warmest regards,


              Mark Andrews
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            excluding young folks from conducting their business online (or anywhere come to that) is discrimination plain and simple.
            Yes. Yes, it is. According to Merriam Webster Online, that word means, as the primary definition:

            the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently

            So, given that, I would have to agree that the law involved requires discrimination. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, overall. There are real and valid reasons for the specific type of discrimination in question here, and they apply in a broad sense to the majority of people below a certain age, because of the general lack of experience with the ramifications of binding agreements among that group.

            Is 18 an arbitrary number? Of course. All such generalizations are, and there are always going to be people below that age who are competent to make those kinds of decisions. There will also be people above it who are not. The law set the number, and the consequences of entering into a contract with someone whose age is below it can be quite serious.
            How would you guys stand legally if now, you (WF), through no fault of your own had to take action which caused them (under 18's) severe financial loss or worse case scenario, caused their fledgling business to collapse altogether? What are the potential ramifications regarding this? (Obviously a complicated area of law).
            Firstly, they're here under false pretenses. The membership agreement is pretty specific about this, which I was reminded of recently. Secondly, there is no line of business which they could enter that would require their continued access to this forum in order to complete a project or deliver a product. So, we can't be stopping them from fulfilling a promise.
            Now, if some under 18's start up their own business surely this demonstrates true entrepreneurial spirit on their part. An action which should be encouraged and applauded NOT stamped down on and worse, now, limiting their chance of financial independence.
            Preaching to the choir, Mark. But we're not "stamping" on anything, and the inflammatory rhetoric is not going to be welcomed in this discussion.

            The thing that pushed this to become a direct-action situation is simple: People lying about being much younger than they are, in order to fit some persona or goal, and pushing the pretended age down, in an effort to seem the "youngest and most admirable." That encouraged people who really are that young to think it was okay to ignore the terms of the membership agreement.

            The shock of seeing someone who claimed to be 12, and might really be, was a rather strong reminder. When I realized he was making that claim, I went in and deleted all data from his profile. We can't even allow someone that age to have an unpublished email address in the database without verifiable parental permission, much less publicly accessible contact info like a Skype account name.

            If a parent wishes to take responsibility for their child's business online, that is a good thing, and can be done legally and with proper delegation of responsibility. We can't do it here. But 'here' is a very tiny place in the ocean of the Internet. For every person who is a member of this forum, there are an absolute minimum of 4000 people online who are not.

            I think far too many people forget that fact.

            Way back in the Uni-Sol days, there was a young man here named Laksman. He was around 14 yerars old when he joined. By the age of 16, (around 1999, if memory serves) he had a group with something like 60,000 members in it, all built without getting anything from this forum but the knowledge that came with reading and asking a few questions. Mostly, he did it through his own thought and effort.

            60,000 members was a lot more than this group had at the time.

            This forum can be helpful, but it is far from a necessity. Anyone who depends too much on it, or any other resource they don't own, is just asking for problems.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Preaching to the choir, Mark. But we're not "stamping" on anything, and the inflammatory rhetoric is not going to be welcomed in this discussion.


              Paul
              I wasn't accusing you of stamping down on anything Paul. I thought it was absolutely obvious I was talking about the law in general. Inflammatory rhetoric?

              Please.


              Mark Andrews
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Inflammatory rhetoric?
                Yep. Regardless of who it was directed at.

                That particular law is designed to protect minors from getting into situations where their inexperience could lead them into problems with potentially serious and long-term consequences. That is a very real issue, and hardly built on any malicious intent.

                One could argue whether the age should be 18 or something else, certainly. But there has to be some general line drawn. 18 is where it's been for a long time here in the States. It has proven to be a reasonable default.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
                  Banned
                  I know it's not built on malicious intent. That much is obvious Paul. I can understand the reasoning behind the law but in practical terms under 18's today, like it or not, have just as much a right as anyone else to set up their own business.

                  We'll have to agree to disagree on the 'inflammatory rhetoric' aspect of the discussion. Which actually was all I was looking for. A discussion. As in discussing the issue as adults. Please do not misunderstand me.

                  Coming back to my point...

                  Case in point, take eBay for example.

                  They have a similar rule in their terms of service based on the same law. Yet someone under 18 can still 'use' eBay to buy and sell despite the law regarding prevention of under 18's entering into a legally binding contract provided a parent or legal guardian takes responsibility for them.

                  Here, look...

                  "You need to be at least 18 years old to register on eBay, because when you buy and sell on eBay you’re actually making a legally binding contract. If you’re under 18, you can use eBay with a parent or guardian."

                  Registration tips

                  So coming back to my original question...

                  Could this not work here too?

                  This way, an under 18 can still post and use this forum and conduct their business since an adult (parent or guardian) is the guarantor behind said under 18 year old's business activities. The parent or legal guardian taking legal responsibility for the under 18's.

                  In your opinion Paul, do you think this would be acceptable or not here on the Warrior Forum?

                  I'm not asking to be difficult, far from it.

                  I'm asking because there are probably more than a few under 18 year old's who rely on this forum since it already forms a part of their business and marketing.

                  Hence the question.


                  Mark Andrews
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    in practical terms under 18's today, like it or not, have just as much a right as anyone else to set up their own business.
                    Morally and ethically? Maybe so. Legally? No, they don't, actually. Not in the same way that folks 18 or over do, at any rate.
                    Could this not work here too?
                    When we have the staff eBay has, maybe. At the moment, we're a couple of hands short of that level.

                    Keep in mind that eBay has access to Paypal's verification resources, which include the ability to check actual bank accounts for ownership. And banks have authority and access that we don't.

                    If you have a Paypal account and don't claim to be under 18, I think it's reasonable for us to assume you're of age. Beyond that, there are several ways that it's possible, but I'm not going to claim we'll adopt them. The verification is beyond the scope of a handful of moderators.


                    Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Taniwha
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Way back in the Uni-Sol days, there was a young man here named Laksman. He was around 14 yerars old when he joined. By the age of 16, (around 1999, if memory serves) he had a group with something like 60,000 members in it, all built without getting anything from this forum but the knowledge that came with reading and asking a few questions. Mostly, he did it through his own thought and effort.
              Obviously it's not a necessity; but I'm sure that The Warrior Forum has helped a lot more young people (under 18) to have create a successful online bussiness then without it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Originally Posted by Taniwha View Post

                Obviously it's not a necessity; but I'm sure that The Warrior Forum has helped a lot more young people (under 18) to have create a successful online bussiness then without it.
                That's certainly true. I could run down a list of them, and I doubt I know anything close to half, much less all.

                I hate this at least as much as anyone 18 or over, but it is now a necessary thing.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
                  True entrepreneurs will always find a way to overcome challenges.
                  This correction is a necessary lesson that any business person of any age must appreciate - it is the fabric of business law / contracts.

                  The wisdom of age discrimination has supported reasonable civilization for many years now. We should not let the Internet business arena be undermined by immature entities under the guise of responsible counterparts.

                  A twelve year old can shoot up a storm, but are they capable of handling responsibly with the aftermath? (I speak figuratively) And if so, then let them do so now with this restriction as we adults must deal with those imposed upon us.

                  This is the crux of the matter.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

                    True entrepreneurs will always find a way to overcome challenges.
                    This correction is a necessary lesson that any business person of any age must appreciate - it is the fabric of business law / contracts.

                    The wisdom of age discrimination has supported reasonable civilization for many years now. We should not let the Internet business arena be undermined by immature entities under the guise of responsible counterparts.

                    A twelve year old can shoot up a storm, but are they capable of handling responsibly with the aftermath? (I speak figuratively) And if so, then let them do so now with this restriction as we adults must deal with those imposed upon us.

                    This is the crux of the matter.
                    All legal considerations aside, I saw a post by someone claiming to be 12 years old and was pretty appalled. I didn't respond and don't normally respond to teens that have said they are teens.

                    This forum can be a serious deterrent to things that should matter more to a teen, and that is their education. They come in here and get blinded by the same headlines that more mature people do ... the make money easy without working type of headlines. Are they more gullible than adults? Sometimes I think not, but the situation is there for them to get taken advantage of.

                    I know as a parent, if my teen were spending a considerable amount of time on a business forum for adults and learning that making money is easy and no work and that a J.O.B is for chumps, I'd be pretty upset. It is completely opposite of what I taught my children as they were growing up.
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                    • Profile picture of the author professorrosado
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      This forum can be a serious deterrent to things that should matter more to a teen, and that is their education.....

                      I know as a parent, if my teen were spending a considerable amount of time on a business forum for adults and learning that making money is easy and no work and that a J.O.B is for chumps, I'd be pretty upset. It is completely opposite of what I taught my children as they were growing up.
                      I concur with your leaning here, however, I espouse entrepreneurship - at the earliest age the desire may arise in an individual. I would promote that along with a strong work ethic.

                      But I would be most tickled pink if my teen would spend his/her hours on the Internet in a business forum as opposed to what most of them do now. As a parent, my job is to teach them to weed out truth from fiction, hype from intent, and to read between the lines. I think this to be their best education of all.
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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by professorrosado View Post

                        I concur with your leaning here, however, I espouse entrepreneurship - at the earliest age the desire may arise in an individual. I would promote that along with a strong work ethic.

                        But I would be most tickled pink if my teen would spend his/her hours on the Internet in a business forum as opposed to what most of them do now. As a parent, my job is to teach them to weed out truth from fiction, hype from intent, and to read between the lines. I think this to be their best education of all.
                        Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur and bypassing education for learning Internet Marketing at an early age may not serve them well for the long run.

                        I always leaned towards working for myself, although I have a long history of working for others before I could make that possible. No one could have stopped me from that, but my education and my work experience has been very valuable in my own business.

                        As for teaching them about weeding out truth from fiction, hype from intent and reading between the lines... good luck with that. Sometimes it was all I could do to get my kids to wash behind their ears and not sneak out the windows in the middle of the night.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

            Off topic slightly but I started business some 31 years ago at the age of 14.

            I also started young. In those days, we did not have the Internet, so I was forced to do it the old fashioned way...

            By the age of 12, I was selling stuff door-to-door and made pretty fair money. I was making enough money that when my dad came up short on money, my piggy bank was substantial enough to rob.


            Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

            Now, if some under 18's start up their own business surely this demonstrates true entrepreneurial spirit on their part. An action which should be encouraged and applauded NOT stamped down on and worse, now, limiting their chance of financial independence.

            Let's say you've already got a minor on this forum, who whilst under 18 has already set up and established their business. And they're using this forum as a means to grow their business. They're already making money. They have already entered a verbal contract perhaps based on a handshake agreement with other parties on the forum to supply goods, products or services.

            How will their business now stand if their rights are taken away from them, which action in and of itself either directly or indirectly causes them not to be in a position to fulfill these contractual agreements / arrangements which they already have in place with other people?

            I am surprised that anyone needs suggest this to you Mark...

            But, no one needs the forum in order to keep transacting business.

            When there is a will, there is a way.

            Given that you are taking this position, it makes me wonder if you realize how many people are doing the bulk of their business outside the forum.

            Although I have been a member of the forum since 2005, I did not become an active participant until late 2010. And in my before-WF days, I made a lot of money, without ever coming here.

            Since coming to the forum, I still make a substantial amount of my income from outside the forum.

            If the rest of us can work our businesses outside the forum successfully, how is it that the sub-18yo won't be able to support their business once they are shut out of the forum?

            As a kid and an adult, if I ever saw something that is going to interfere with my business, then I would find other ways to get the job done. That is what people who are committed to their own success will do -- adapt and make changes.



            -------------

            Paul: A couple points of curiosity.

            Will you be closing the accounts of anyone currently under the age of 18 -- in effect, removing their footprint in the forum?

            And if so, will you be making any exceptions for account deletion with kids who are to turn 18 really soon? I know of one youngster here, who is pretty well-known around these parts that will turn 18 in just a few weeks.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Bill,
              Will you be closing the accounts of anyone currently under the age of 18 -- in effect, removing their footprint in the forum?
              Only if they continue posting. Which, I believe, answers your second question.

              We can't go back and try to guess who was and was not lying about their age in the past. That would be a fool's errand, accomplishing nothing.


              Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael D Forbes
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Does this mean we can start drinking and posting again ?
      Go back to your turkey Joe... we all know you aren't old enough to drink.
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    • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Does this mean we can start drinking and posting again ?
      Ya, but if your stick figure exposes himself again, I'm reporting you!
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      I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Small silver lining: the smart and talented kids will find a way to keep on keeping on. Not suggesting rule breaking or anything like that, but saying some are smart enough to find other ways to learn, grow and sell.

      Does this mean we can start drinking and posting again ?

      Wow!!! I bet you are relieved...

      You made it just over the wire!!!

      Phew!! That was close, eh?

      :p

      Just kidding. I know young Joe is quite a bit over 18.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        DubDubDubDot,

        Really? People lie and cheat on Internet forums? WOW! Who would have ever thought of such a thing!?!

        You, on the other hand, seem to be actively encouraging it. Do that just one more time, and you'll be starting over with a new fake (and probably equally anonymous) account.

        I really dislike banning people. Nameless, faceless, anonymous non-entities, on the other hand, are fair game.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author RogueOne
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I really dislike banning people.
          Unless they flip you the bird?

          It's gotta be tough for you.

          I really have a lot of respect for young people with drive and motivation, but man, the legal climate on the internet is scary sometimes.

          Bottom line: you gotta protect yourself.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Wow!!! I bet you are relieved...

        You made it just over the wire!!!

        Phew!! That was close, eh?

        :p

        Just kidding. I know young Joe is quite a bit over 18.
        As long as we stick with physical age and not mental maturity, I'm safe.
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    • Profile picture of the author JennySweets
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Small silver lining: the smart and talented kids will find a way to keep on keeping on. Not suggesting rule breaking or anything like that, but saying some are smart enough to find other ways to learn, grow and sell.

      Does this mean we can start drinking and posting again ?
      Such as JV partnering if needing to launch a WSO or simply having a "partner" post warrior classifieds (legal ways around it versus fake accounts)

      The smart ones (I can think of one in particular you know who you are mr giggles) will just find another road that goes to the same place.


      *continues drinking and posting as she was not aware this was against the rules, rather, thought it was encouraged*
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    Whew. I just made it under that wire.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Aw Man! That does suck. I hate it when bureaucracy gets
    in the way of kids being able to learn and develop business
    skills.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author fluffythewondercat
      The good news is now some of my socks are eligible to become a member.

      flufF
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      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        What if I am over 18, but Drunk, is it ok to post then
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        • Profile picture of the author RyanLester
          I was wondering about this. Yes Paul there is no way to know the real age. If I may ask, will the WF being facing legal action if underage persons are found out? just a question.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
        Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

        The good news is now some of my socks are eligible to become a member.

        flufF
        --
        And some of my T-shirts. Might be a good excuse though - I'll tell my wife I have to keep them, since I can only post here when I'm wearing them.

        John
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        The good news is now some of my socks are eligible to become a member.
        They wouldn't be the first "socks" to become members here.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    That is a bummer. But the young folks should know that this does NOT hinder their success in any way. In other words, young folks, don't turn this into an excuse as to why you can't succeed.

    Plus, remember, all the great pieces of advice here on the main forums are still open for anyone to read. You may not be able to post and be involved, but you can still soak up plenty of gold nuggets by reading.

    Becky

    p.s. Gene, you're lucky that you made it! I don't get to resume my membership for another year.

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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      What if I am over 18, but Drunk, is it ok to post then
      Okay? Yes.

      Smart? Questionable...

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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    The rule is symbolic since it will not keep minors from posting here. They will get banned and come right back with the lesson learned to not disclose their age.
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    • Profile picture of the author GMD
      Banned
      It's funny, a couple months ago I started a thread about this very topic: why are "kids" allowed on this forum when they're pretty much -- legally -- (and in MOST cases, not all cases) unable to enter into contracts / legal agreements.

      While I felt I made a detailed and compelling case as to why this practice should stop (included quoting the forum's own terms of service agreement at the time which barred those 18 and under from participating), the thread ended up being deleted hours after I posted it.

      I am in no way writing "I told you so", however I'm happy that this forum has revisited this subject again (for whatever reason) and changed course.

      On the whole, it's a wise course.


      ...However, "wink-wink" underage persons will find their way onto the forums and as long as they keep a low profile and do what they do and don't draw attention to themselves, it should be business as usual for most of those folks!
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by GMD View Post

        It's funny, a couple months ago I started a thread about this very topic: why are "kids" allowed on this forum when they're pretty much -- legally -- (and in MOST cases, not all cases) unable to enter into contracts / legal agreements.
        Because participating in a forum doesn't require one to enter into a contract/legal agreement that they aren't allowed to enter. It's not against the law to allow folks under 18 to join a forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author GMD
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          Because participating in a forum doesn't require one to enter into a contract/legal agreement that they aren't allowed to enter. It's not against the law to allow folks under 18 to join a forum.
          Any forum that requires you to agree with a terms of service agreement is a "contract / legal agreement". Period.

          This forum has a user agreement which is a legal agreement between the forum and the user.

          And you're right: it's NOT against the law to allow folks under 18 to join a forum. Why you even bring that up, who knows? Nobody was or is claiming that it's illegal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      The rule is symbolic since it will not keep minors from posting here. They will get banned and come right back with the lesson learned to not disclose their age.
      Of course that will happen. But then the legal responsibility for any problems will be more likely to fall on the culpable party, that being the person who lied about their age.

      This isn't about "punishing kids", it's about legal protection. At best, it will ensure people making legal agreements are able to legally make those agreements. At worst, the WF can claim plausible deniability if something bad happens.

      I may not like it, but I understand it.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Michael,
        This isn't about "punishing kids", it's about legal protection.
        Indeed.

        Consider: A 16-year old creates a cool site and sells it to you. Mom and Dad decide it's worth more, and feel like you ripped the kid off. Who owns the copyright?


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

          When I was 16 I was a rebel, I mean really, really bad...I didn't know about this biz (internet) then, I was an apprentice Car Mechanic, till I got fired from that job..tried again got fired again, then tried again and quit of my own accord..but even if I did know about that biz...

          ...If I felt a site was worth $100 and I wanted to sell it ...I would sell it for $100..regardless.

          But the above point is valid and fair game.
          Rebel or not, at 16 you are not able to enter into a legally binding sales contract. You could sell that site for $100, collect the $100, spend it and go on your merry way.

          If the legal adult responsible for you decided you didn't charge enough, they can declare the sale void and ask for more money or demand the site be transferred back. The buyer wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

          Flip it around. You, as an adult, agree to sell that site to a 16 year old via PayPal. First, the underage teen can't legally open a PayPal account without the permission of whoever is legally responsible for him or her. So an account like that can be declared invalid, along with payments received. Second, the legal adult could block the sale. If you've already paid, and the teen has converted it into a new video game, you're screwed.

          Way too many ways for things to end up in the weeds when one or more parties to a transaction have no legal responsibility for honoring that transaction, and others outside the transaction do.
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        The rule provides no legal protection whatsoever unless every minor chooses to obey the 18+ rule. It's a rule based on the honor code that can't be enforced. I guarantee you every minor reading this thread is off in the corner laughing at all the "old farts" talking about the need to ban them. 110% chance these guys already have new accounts up and running. You'll never catch them because they now have an adult persona moving forward.

        But let's just say hypothetically speaking that a situation arises where a minor or their parents want out of a contract that he couldn't legally enter into in the first place. What is your rebuttal? That he lied about his age, so he should be bound to the contract and the deal is final?

        The idea looks good on paper, but falls apart when you inject reality into the mix.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vorsiedious
    Darn. There goes my idea of starting a warrior forum for kids; didn't know it wasn't allowed
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    • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
      Originally Posted by Vorsiedious View Post

      Darn. There goes my idea of starting a warrior forum for kids; didn't know it wasn't allowed
      Of course it's "allowed", it's just risky. You just have to accept the legal challenges that come along with it.
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Vorsiedious View Post

        Darn. There goes my idea of starting a warrior forum for kids; didn't know it wasn't allowed
        Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

        Of course it's "allowed", it's just risky. You just have to accept the legal challenges that come along with it.
        ...And those legal challenges include using the Warrior Forum name for your own fun and profit.
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  • Profile picture of the author AlexNeo2009
    Below 18 also can become successul IM
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  • Profile picture of the author CharismaticMannequin
    Haha!


    Some of the people in this post are great! Put a smile on my face.


    Makes a refreshing change from the arguing and bickering I see plastered over many of the forums

    Little off-topic...but meh!
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  • Profile picture of the author starcraft2
    Banned
    ah, that's too bad, some of my VAs are only 16 and I enjoy supporting the dreams of young people
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  • Profile picture of the author cratos
    There are a few little 13 year olds out there that I know of with great minds.
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  • Profile picture of the author fin
    Is this just an American thing?

    What about the countries where 16yr olds can get married and drink beer?
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by fin View Post

      Is this just an American thing?

      What about the countries where 16yr olds can get married and drink beer?
      If they want to enter into a contract in the USA, they have to be of legal age in the USA.

      Heck, in most places these days, you can buy a house at 18, but you have to wait until you're 21 to legally toast your new home...
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        There are all kinds of anomalies, in various different countries (and even various different parts of countries) in what you're allowed to do at which ages. These aren't really too relevant.

        But if having people who are known to be under 18 here potentially gives the forum legal problems/worries, as exemplified by Paul and John above, obviously nobody can decently object to their following the legal advice they've been given on the point.

        It's a shame (as both Paul and Allen have commented above), because there've certainly been one or two people aged 16/17 here while I've been here who were more than "worth their space". But what can you do?
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      • Profile picture of the author fin
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        If they want to enter into a contract in the USA, they have to be of legal age in the USA.

        Heck, in most places these days, you can buy a house at 18, but you have to wait until you're 21 to legally toast your new home...
        I never understood that about the US.

        Then I walked into my local town sober one night lol.

        I guess most companies operating are US.
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        • Profile picture of the author Allan_Gardyne
          If you're under 18 and really want to do business online, I'm sure this necessary ruling won't stop you.

          I created my first business when I was about 10. I used to place small ads in newspapers and in something I think was called Junior's Digest to buy postage stamps, which I sold to dealers overseas. No one I dealt with ever asked me my age.

          Your biggest challenge may be selling yourself to your parents, to persuade them to allow you to create a website, set up a PayPal account, join affiliate programs, etc in a parent's name.

          Before I was in my teens, I persuaded my parents to let me knock pine cones off trees and sell them door-to-door as firewood. Um. Actually, I must admit, I'm a bit hazy about whether I asked for permission to do that. I think I asked for permission after they found out what I was doing

          If you're determined enough, you won't let the oldies molly-coddle you. Hurdles and barriers won't stop you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lisha5684
    Even though this thread started off as something that could have been taken negatively, it has been turned around by many a member I am laughing over here about what some of you have said. hilarious. And I also agree that although it's not "fair", it's still good that the teens can continue to read the forum and keep learning.

    If you're under 18 and you're interested in business, keep at it! I wish I knew what I was doing when I was a kid! wow, I'd have it so much easier now if I started learning back then!
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    It is what it is. I guess things gotta get enforced. Especially matters like this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Paul, any chance you can add to this rule that "you must act at least 18+ to post here"...?
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        Paul, any chance you can add to this rule that "you must act at least 18+ to post here"...?
        A mighty fine suggestion!

        I don't recall having seen many sub 18 year olds but I'm only judging by avatars of course...
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        • Profile picture of the author goindeep
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Just a thought but over here at a certain age people have to re-sit their driving test.

            Will there be a cut off age where the really old farts get banned too? Like when they start talking all gibberishly? Like Thad for example. He's all messed up on moonshine and funny in the head already and I heard he's shown Terra a "unicorn horn", apparently.

            ...and what about all the people let out of funny farms that come here every day?

            Jeez, I'm glad I'm not running this place. So are the rest of the members I suspect.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Richard,
              Will there be a cut off age where the really old farts get banned too?
              Please, please, please... Tell me it's so!


              Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

              Will there be a cut off age where the really old farts get banned too? Like when they start talking all gibberishly? Like Thad for example. He's all messed up on moonshine and funny in the head already and I heard he's shown Terra a "unicorn horn", apparently.
              Hey now, Richard, lol!

              You forgot to mention that the "unicorn horn" was actually attached to a whole unicorn.:p

              What ole Thad taught me was if you want something and can dream it, you can really see it come to fruition! Or in other words, if you believe it you can achieve it.

              Isn't that just the encouragement and inspiration that has driven many a dreamer to become successful entrepreneurs?

              Ya know, old people often hold a world of wisdom that younger generations could greatly benefit from, so quit trying to throw ole Thad under the bus, er, donkey drawn cart! :p

              Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                You forgot to mention that the "unicorn horn" was actually attached to a whole unicorn.:p
                Yes, yes I did. Must have been my filthy mind.

                Ya know, old people often hold a world of wisdom that younger generations could greatly benefit from, so quit trying to throw ole Thad under the bus, er, donkey drawn cart! :p
                Oh I love ol' Thad, funniest bits of the forum. I have a great deal of respect for my elders too, I'm no spring chicken myself you know. It was all tongue in cheek, not that I have to say that.

                Terra, you and I know it's donkey drawn but Thad always says it's a unicorn drawn cart after that moonshine and some baccy flobbing. It's not just baccy in that baccy either. :p
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  It's not a life sentence - time cures youth...oh boy, does it

                  "Hey, watch this" - a redneck's last words:p
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                  I wish offended people would react like fainting goats and quietly tip over.
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                  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    "Hey, watch this" - a redneck's last words:p
                    ... and his friends' ticket to winning $100,000 on America's Funniest Home Videos.

                    Becky
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                  Oh I love ol' Thad, funniest bits of the forum. I have a great deal of respect for my elders too, I'm no spring chicken myself you know. It was all tongue in cheek, not that I have to say that.
                  Naw, you didn't have to say that, I knew.

                  Hehe, I've wracked up a few decades of living myself, why, my youngest offspring is the same age as Joe Robinson!

                  And how do you figure I knew that older people have a world of wisdom to share with younger generations?

                  Ms Torah, Quote:
                  ... if you believe it you can achieve it.

                  Isn't that just the encouragement and inspiration that has driven many a dreamer to become successful entrepreneurs?
                  Possibly. You also need to keep the context in mind. In Thad's world, that's usually the inspiration for various activities introduced by the phrase, "Hey, y'all. Watch this!"
                  Paul,

                  I saw what ya did there...Torah as in old testament. hmmph! :p

                  I know! I was there in Stumpwoody Holler and saw Thad do that many times! Must be his sodie water that keeps his whole person so relaxed as to why he's still alive and kickin'.

                  Terra
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                  • Profile picture of the author TheArticlePros
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                    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                      Originally Posted by JaRyCu View Post

                      What?? What?? *head explodes*
                      *heart explodes* as it goes beyond palpitations into tachycardia while Terra rushes back to her original post to make sure she didn't just type the typo of the century! :p

                      Terra
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Ms Torah,
                ... if you believe it you can achieve it.

                Isn't that just the encouragement and inspiration that has driven many a dreamer to become successful entrepreneurs?
                Possibly. You also need to keep the context in mind. In Thad's world, that's usually the inspiration for various activities introduced by the phrase, "Hey, y'all. Watch this!"


                Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          :sigh: To be 18 again.

          On a less serious note, I understand the reasoning behind this. As has been
          pointed out, way too many things that can come back and bite you on the ass.

          Thankfully for my daughter (she's 23) she doesn't have to worry about this on
          her end but still has to worry about who she does business with. Oh, and she
          has somewhat decided to follow in dad's footsteps and do some online business
          stuff. God help her.

          Paul, thanks for filling us in on this, as much as we're not exactly thrilled to get
          the news. I think it sucks for kids who are truly mature enough to run their own
          business and even act more adult than some adults, myself included if I'm going
          to be totally honest.

          But then I never did grow up.

          :sigh: To be 18 again.
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        • Profile picture of the author cashp0wer
          They can still read the forum and learn all they can and in a few years blow us all away with what they come up with.
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      • Profile picture of the author contentwriting360
        Banned
        I second the motion...

        Seriously, the decision made is for everyone's protection, I believe so. It's better to be proactive than sorry.

        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        Paul, any chance you can add to this rule that "you must act at least 18+ to post here"...?
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  • Profile picture of the author nengfhujpaf
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author bkat52
    It's good to see we are all being looked out for with the best of intentions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    Oh, how I wish you were talking about me.
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  • Profile picture of the author tooAlive
    I must say, I completely agree with Mark's post above.
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  • Profile picture of the author Manoj V
    On an Internet Marketing Forum you are either buying, selling or promoting products or being influenced to do so. Buying, selling or promoting a product would mean entering into a financial transaction.

    Here is what Paypal states in its TOS:

    "You must be at least 18 years of age to register for an account and use the Service."

    Since almost all transactions here take place through Paypal it is imperative that only those above 18 be allowed to post here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Taniwha
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Okay, I just read through your reply above again Paul.

      "We can't do it here." Understood now.

      A great shame.


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    Is there a way to make sure the member is within the legal age?
    If not then....?
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    • Profile picture of the author Gambino
      Originally Posted by Kal Sallam View Post

      Is there a way to make sure the member is within the legal age?
      If not then....?
      Sign up using a credit card? Would limit it some, but some 16 year olds have credit cards with parental consent. Others would use their parents cards. And it would probably cause a decline in new members.

      Second idea would be to upload a drivers license scan during account creation. Then someone would have to check it. There would be fakes. Etc.

      No clear cut way to cut it out, all you can really do is try, and assume people follow the rules.
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  • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    And no, we will not amend it to fit the COPPA standard of 13+
    Interestingly enough, I've heard recently that Facebook is considering opening up their site to kids 12 and under. I wonder how that'll work out for them.

    I also wonder how COPPA compliance is even possible, since you can't collect personal info (including age or birthday) from anyone under 13 without written permission from their parents.. but you also can't possibly know if they're under 13 without collecting that info (and that's assuming they give you their correct birthday).

    Consider: A 16-year old creates a cool site and sells it to you. Mom and Dad decide it's worth more, and feel like you ripped the kid off. Who owns the copyright?
    I think copyright law is pretty clear that the creator of the work owns the copyright (with certain exceptions, like work made for hire), so I don't think there's any question of whether or not the 16 year old owns the copyright. The question is, did that 16 year old have the right to enter into a legally binding contract without parental consent? In most cases, the answer is no. (I'm no lawyer, so that's not legal advice, just my layman's understanding of copyright and contract law)

    (edited to fix the second quote and to add...)
    I do know, at least, that the 16 year old owned the copyright as far as the U.S. Copyright office is concerned, because I had no problem registering copyrights in my name for several pieces of software I wrote when I was 15 and 16.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by stevenh512 View Post

      Interestingly enough, I've heard recently that Facebook is considering opening up their site to kids 12 and under. I wonder how that'll work out for them.
      FaceBook wants to be the place to document your life in short blurbs and photos. That is why they changed to the new (and annoying) timeline format. It makes sense that they would want people to start documenting their lives at the youngest possible age. From what I have heard, they will be creating an isolation barrier around youngsters. How that will work and how it will keep predators out remains to be seen.
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  • Profile picture of the author cardine
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    And no, we will not amend it to fit the COPPA standard of 13+. Again, this is a business forum, and being active here involves contracts. Which include the one you agree to when you join.
    The WarriorForum agreement isn't a business contract. Also being under 18 doesn't exclude you from conducting business. I am 20 now, but when I was 15 I incorporated my first LLC. It took my lawyer going the extra mile, but I was able to conduct business while being under 18.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Several people have raised points about pre-existing contracts. From my observations, in the eyes of the law there would be no contract. Contract law, I believe, requires both parties to be competent to make the contract binding. By definition, minors are not deemed to be legally competent.

      As for the eBay example, in the eyes of the law, the minor doesn't have a business. The parent does, and allows the minor to act within that business. If anything goes south, it's the parent's responsibility, not the minor's.

      Same for minors having credit cards. They don't get the card without an adult taking the responsibility for repayment. The card may have the minor's name on it, but the contract is with the adult.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        The WarriorForum agreement isn't a business contract.
        Well, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding of what makes for a contract is three things: Offer, consideration, and agreement.

        Which of those do you claim is missing here?


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    ....Mommy?
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      ....Mommy?
      Splorf!

      Darn it! There just went my strawberry banana smoothie I just made!

      Sure Joe, if you insist. I would be proud to call such an intelligent, creative and funny 23 year old guy, my son.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post


        Sure Joe, if you insist. I would be proud to call such an intelligent, creative and funny 23 year old guy, my son.

        Terra
        I can see it now. Joe is currently wedged by the head in the door frame trying type a response.

        Edit. Joe, Its good to see you back with the Freddie Mercury photo.
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  • Profile picture of the author Corey Geer
    As a gamer and someone who spends most of his time on the computer, the majority of people would probably think of me as an immature person. I've been a pretty reserved and quiet person though although out my life or at least as far back as I can remember.

    Maturity comes with intelligence I believe. I'm not saying only stupid people have fun, but there's a difference between having fun and just plain being stupid.

    Like I'm sure many others have posted, I've met teenagers who were mature and intelligent and I've met adults who were complete idiots. Example:

    A guy I know from around here is 30 years old, lives with his mom, his nickname is "wheels" and he thinks saying "your mom" after everything is the funniest thing in the world to do.

    I think the only way to truly improve a forum requires some kind of Artificial Intelligence bot that I have no idea how to implement. This bot would require an intelligence test and if you fail, you're IP Banned from the forum.

    There's too many people to police at this point. There's so many people who post things like "thanks for this info!" and "thanks for that!" I don't believe a forum should be confined to an age limit but posts that just take up space like those above, should be the people who can't register or participate in the forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
      Originally Posted by GhostWriting View Post

      There's so many people who post things like "thanks for this info!" and "thanks for that!" I don't believe a forum should be confined to an age limit but posts that just take up space like those above, should be the people who can't register or participate in the forum.
      I agree.

      I post to a sports forum that made the decision to ban people who earn a reputation for making low quality posts. It was highly controversial there and it would be even more controversial here since so many type out shallow posts just to get sig views.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

        I post to a sports forum that made the decision to ban people who earn a reputation for making low quality posts. It was highly controversial there and it would be even more controversial here since so many type out shallow posts just to get sig views.
        If you see someone who appears to be doing that, look at their posting history. If they're running up a lot of useless posts, report them. We ban a bunch of people on a daily basis for that, and will delete the one-liners and warn someone if it's a long-time member who just seems to want to get to 50 so they can PM.

        If they look like they're posting sensible stuff, and it's just too many at once and looks like sig bait, we'll often turn off their signature rather than banning them.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    Woohoo! 22 though lol, although I'm all for moving around my birthday toget more cake.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      Woohoo! 22 though lol, although I'm all for moving around my birthday toget more cake.
      Haha!

      My bad! My son just had his birthday and that changed the number.

      But if you want more cake, I can arrange that. My favorite thing to bake is desserts!

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        Haha!

        My bad! My son just had his birthday and that changed the number.

        But if you want more cake, I can arrange that. My favorite thing to bake is desserts!

        Terra
        I'm taking up cooking as a matter of fact, and desserts look like the most fun! Teach me!

        Oops, I think we should give this thread back .
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Joe,
          Oops, I think we should give this thread back .
          Don't worry about it. If they made it past Tenor's rendition of "Mama's little baby loves shortening bread," they got the highlights and are hanging on for the entertainment.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Joe,Don't worry about it. If they made it past Tenor's rendition of "Mama's little baby loves shortening bread," they got the highlights and are hanging on for the entertainment.


            Paul
            I love it Paul! Haha

            Not only was it funny, but that post has clever written all over it from Tenor referring to singing and singing Mama's little baby loves shortening bread from Joe being my "baby"and me being his "momma" and we both loving cake and baking!

            Consider me thoroughly impressed!

            Terra
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Consider me thoroughly impressed!
              You're an easy taraget.
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                You're an easy taraget.
                Ha!

                Yeah, taragets that a lot lately. I'm gonna have to work on that. :p

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author Cali16
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Ha!

                  Yeah, taragets that a lot lately. I'm gonna have to work on that. :p
                  LOL, Terra!

                  Btw, I love to bake desserts too - of course, they have to have chocolate in them! If you and Joe get together for some serious baking fun, let me know and I'm there!
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    • Profile picture of the author Tessa Holmes
      I totally understand where this decision is coming from. Can't argue with it either. Owner of this forum would be the one left dealing with legal system if some problem arises.

      Just wanted to reflect about it a little bit.

      One of truly inspiring stories I have read - was book of Cameron Johnson, who started running his online business when he was 12 years old and had some great working ideas before he hit 16. It is a regular printed book.
      It is called "You call the shots"
      Can be found on Amazon. They guy wrote a letter to Donald Trump (when he was about 8 years old) and managed to get a response, got chance to go into the legal battle with the Ford Company over domain name and end up with settlement that he received from the company, as a result of this battle.
      He had some good running business on Ebay and some business in buying-selling domains.
      I recommend this book to people on this forum who need some inspiration.

      And yes, guy like him would be banned from this site now, unfortunately.
      I do not blame you, guys, you are doing what you have to do.

      Just wanted to share.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Contract law, I believe, requires both parties to be competent to make the contract binding. By definition, minors are not deemed to be legally competent.
    Actually, a minor can enter a contract. They do every day. They can also get out of one easier but the party 18+ isn't so lucky. That's why you should enter them with extreme caution.

    Technically, any minor who purchased access to the war room, should still have access for the agreed upon time. Booting them would be a violation of the said contract.

    You could argue that they needed to 18 to create an account but the second a person know or claiming to be a minor was allowed to remain, it created a new agreement.

    Not legal advice...

    Garrie
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      Technically, any minor who purchased access to the war room, should still have access for the agreed upon time. Booting them would be a violation of the said contract.
      WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums - Forum Rules

      You understand and agree to the following: (a) if you choose to register, you must submit a valid e-mail address and select a password and user name during the registration process; (b) You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your member name and password, and all uses of your account - whether or not you've authorized such use; (c) You agree to notify the Warrior Forum immediately of any unauthorized use of your account; (d) You agree to provide accurate information and to maintain the accuracy of your information; and (e) You are at least 18 years of age.

      ...

      Warrior Forum reserves the right to refuse the service, or any part of the service, to any user for any reason.

      ...

      Warrior Forum reserves the right to refuse membership to anyone. Warrior Forum may terminate your membership and any and all information, communications or postings, at any time, without notice, for conduct that violates this Agreement.
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  • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
    Every situation like this is always turned into positives by savvy people.

    It's like when copywriters were forced to put the word 'advertisement' on their newspaper copy... it ended up increasing conversions in many cases.

    I expect to hear success stories from unexpected sources.
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    • Profile picture of the author bobsstuff
      An interesting case on an underage achiever who became a millionaire online before she was 18 is Ashley Qualls. LOOK HER UP! She started at 14.

      Her story became interesting when she hired people to work for her and could not pay them without her account executors approval. She had to have thier approval to spend her own money becasue she was under 18.

      Finally at 17 she got the courts to "emancipate" her or make her a legal adult so she do work her own business effectively.

      I would be concerned if I entered an online contract that was generating thousands of dollars and then learned that my partner was under 18.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bob,
        I would be concerned if I entered an online contract that was generating thousands of dollars and then learned that my partner was under 18.
        Yep. Your point about emancipated minors is on target here, too. That is one exception under the law. I can think of at least one other, but I'm not going to mention it here. Too easy to claim, and too hard for us to prove or disprove.

        That's the thing a lot of people miss in discussions like this. The time requirements of verifying this stuff. There's no way to do it for free members, and the assumption is that paying members, since they have to use Paypal or a credit card, have been verified by those institutions.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          There's no way to do it for free members, and the assumption is that paying members, since they have to use Paypal or a credit card, have been verified by those institutions.
          When you think about the absolutely mind-boggling money Allen could make by charging even just $9.95 a month to be a member here, it's pretty amazing that he has made this a free forum. I realize he makes money from the WF in many other ways, but even if two-thirds of the members left if they had to pay, that would still be well over $1.78 MILLION per month!!
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

            When you think about the absolutely mind-boggling money Allen could make by charging even just $9.95 a month to be a member here, it's pretty amazing that he has made this a free forum. I realize he makes money from the WF in many other ways, but even if two-thirds of the members left if they had to pay, that would still be well over $1.78 MILLION per month!!
            That certainly makes all the people who are boo-hooing and whining that he allows so many crap WSOs (and I'm quoting here) only for the money look rather ridiculous, don't you think? :rolleyes:

            Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
            Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

            When you think about the absolutely mind-boggling money Allen could make by charging even just $9.95 a month to be a member here, it's pretty amazing that he has made this a free forum. I realize he makes money from the WF in many other ways, but even if two-thirds of the members left if they had to pay, that would still be well over $1.78 MILLION per month!!
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            That certainly makes all the people who are boo-hooing and whining that he allows so many crap WSOs (and I'm quoting here) only for the money look rather ridiculous, don't you think? :rolleyes:

            Terra
            Understand what you are saying.

            Can't speak for Allen. Can only make a personal observation. That being he has always freely made available his personal experiences and ideas and resources to people because he sincerely wants to help. In part that includes an open forum. A strictly paid forum would reach fewer people. May even reach more of the wrong people.

            Jeffery 100% :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Okay. This probably sucks more than any post I've made here, but it has to happen:

    If you are under the age of 18, or claim to be, you can no longer post here. That includes both the paid advertising and the discussion sections. And no, it does not matter if the minimum age requirement in your country is different than in the US.

    We didn't pay much attention to this for quite a while, mostly because we know the majority of people claiming to be under 18 are faking their age to create a chosen "persona," and we have no way to know the real age of any poster.

    This has to do with contracts and agreements, not anyone's intelligence or maturity. And I hate it as much as anyone. But, there it is.

    I'll let the legal beagles explain it, if they like.

    The trigger was the presence of someone claiming to be 12 years old. That's not even old enough to sign up at any site that collects data on members without a parent's permission, much less to enter into legal agreements.

    And no, we will not amend it to fit the COPPA standard of 13+. Again, this is a business forum, and being active here involves contracts. Which include the one you agree to when you join.

    Sorry, folks. I truly am.


    Paul
    Originally Posted by admin View Post

    Yes this is really hard. Especially since there are some 16 year olds that work harder and in many cases 'smarter' than most grown ups I know.
    You both have always treated people with kindness and you both go out of your way to be fair. Even at your own expense. Today may cause a dull thud in your hearts, but keep in mind that we understand and are here for you.

    There are still good points. They can still read and learn and some may even start their own forums. Who knows.. forums similar to this forum where good people do in fact look out for the best interest of other members. Especially those who claimed to be in their teens.

    Also, if that were to happen the 'evolution' aspect would be an interesting study. And lots of potential for the teens to possibly learn both the good and bad of business online and offline.

    Hind-thought, its not like when a child leaves home for the first time and we can say "Son, this is your home and you can always come back..."

    Jeffery 100% :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
    Lol I started Internet marketing and join warrior forum when I'm 17 couple of yearssss ago. Please don't ban my account
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    • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
      Sadly, I have to report that I am over the age of 18.

      In fact I'm probably heading towards being booted for being an old fart. Can I go back and lie about my age before that time comes please?

      On enforcing the age limit - I don't see how it's possible. Personally, I think it's more the responsibility of the parents than it is the owners of a forum.

      My grandaughter is desperate to have a Facebook account. (don't you know 'EVERYBODY' has one?) Facebook says you have to be 13. She's 11. So guess what? She doesn't get to have one.

      If someone is dishonest enough to lie about their age just so they can post here, they're dishonest enough that I wouldn't want to be doing business with them anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
    If I show a fake ID that says I'm under 18, can I be banned, too?
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    I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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  • Profile picture of the author Nicole K
    Will the Warrior Forum become wiser with the under-18s excluded from the forum? Only time will tell.

    The mods should ban any member who makes childish comments by saying - hey, you seem to be under-18...lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    does this mean no more "yo Bro", "dude...." "S.T.F.U." or is that more like <25 y/o's college Uni kids (god help us)?

    It will stop much of the unprofessionalism I.M.H.O.

    12 years old..that's insane. Should be put playing woth dolls not here any way.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      does this mean no more "yo Bro", "dude...." "S.T.F.U." or is that more like <25 y/o's college Uni kids (god help us)?

      It will stop much of the unprofessionalism I.M.H.O.

      12 years old..that's insane. Should be put playing woth dolls not here any way.
      At this college at least we still use "dude". Not "STFU" or "bro" though (although my nickname amongst a few friends is Broseph. Does that count?).
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      Should be put playing with dolls not here any way.
      Dude, how many times do I have to tell you?

      They're 'action figures'...

      Just kidding, bro...:p
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  • Profile picture of the author takuz
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author contentwriting360
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author NetMediaGeek
    I never even knew that. Is the an upper age limit
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Perez O'Connor
    First person that popped to mind when I read this was Caleb Spilchen. How old is he now? (17?)

    I know that given his success this shouldn't destroy his business but if he's underage I'm sure it'll be a big blow.

    Can the accounts be put on hold for those aged 17 and nearing 18?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Jason Perez O'Connor View Post

      First person that popped to mind when I read this was Caleb Spilchen. How old is he now? (17?)

      I know that given his success this shouldn't destroy his business but if he's underage I'm sure it'll be a big blow.

      Can the accounts be put on hold for those aged 17 and nearing 18?
      He's still posting.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        He's still posting.
        In a barely passable Donald Trump impression:

        We need to see a birth certificate.
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    • Profile picture of the author salegurus
      Originally Posted by Jason Perez O'Connor View Post

      First person that popped to mind when I read this was Caleb Spilchen. How old is he now? (17?)

      I know that given his success this shouldn't destroy his business but if he's underage I'm sure it'll be a big blow.

      Can the accounts be put on hold for those aged 17 and nearing 18?
      Don't know him, but if he is underage then you can't play favorites. Other people have been banned...
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Caleb's account is alive and well. He was posting in the OT just the other day talking about
        finishing four years of HS, so I'm sure he is at least 18.

        Terra
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        • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Caleb's account is alive and well. He was posting just the other day talking about
          finishing four years of HS, so I'm sure he is at least 18.

          Terra
          I'm glad to see that! Obviously, his name popped into my mind, and I've gotten a lot of great info from Caleb's products.

          Elisabeth
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

          Caleb's account is alive and well. He was posting just the other day talking about
          finishing four years of HS, so I'm sure he is at least 18.
          He's got a month or so to go,yet. Caleb is an example of the other exception I mentioned earlier. He is doing business as an agent of a corporation which currently belongs to his parents. That is why he's still allowed to post. Any contract with him is enforceable, as I understand the situation.

          He has always done business here under that corporation, and is probably the only one for whom that "loophole" will be allowed. He did it when there was no need to fake anything. It would be too easy for others to claim corporate status falsely in the future to get around the rule.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Thanks for clearing that up Paul.

            By his intelligence and maturity level, I actually would have guessed him to be even older than eighteen.

            Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Perez O'Connor
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            He's got a month or so to go,yet. Caleb is an example of the other exception I mentioned earlier. He is doing business as an agent of a corporation which currently belongs to his parents. That is why he's still allowed to post. Any contract with him is enforceable, as I understand the situation.

            He has always done business here under that corporation, and is probably the only one for whom that "loophole" will be allowed. He did it when there was no need to fake anything. It would be too easy for others to claim corporate status falsely in the future to get around the rule.


            Paul
            Dare I say he saw this coming! :O Good to hear though.
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          • Profile picture of the author salegurus
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            He's got a month or so to go,yet. Caleb is an example of the other exception I mentioned earlier. He is doing business as an agent of a corporation which currently belongs to his parents.
            Paul
            Well good luck to him, he found a loophole and used it to his advantage.
            Must be a very smart kid with very supportive parents...
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    I love finding the serious threads that become an entertainment fest. Especially when you can tell the thought just "popped" out.

    There is no question I'm of the "Old Fart" generation and almost so old I may qualify for posting gibberish and *(5tr! -- out of step help to the young whipper snappers like Miss Terrak, Paul, and whats his face who wears Trojans on his head for protection from aliens.

    I had to walk through 10 miles of snow just to get to the outhouse when I was a mere lad of 7 and had my first idea of selling the Sears and Robeck catalog (not for reading) to our neighbors for instant use. Even back then I had a weekly recurring income.

    Speaking of the outhouse I'll talk to you guys later, I have to go.



    The Old Geezer
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

      I love finding the serious threads that become an entertainment fest. Especially when you can tell the thought just "popped" out.

      There is no question I'm of the "Old Fart" generation and almost so old I may qualify for posting gibberish and *(5tr! -- out of step help to the young whipper snappers like Miss Terrak, Paul, and whats his face who wears Trojans on his head for protection from aliens.

      I had to walk through 10 miles of snow just to get to the outhouse when I was a mere lad of 7 and had my first idea of selling the Sears and Robeck catalog (not for reading) to our neighbors for instant use. Even back then I had a weekly recurring income.

      Speaking of the outhouse I'll talk to you guys later, I have to go.



      The Old Geezer
      Awww! What a shining example of a true gentleman calling me a whippersnapper and all.

      But I have reached the half century mark. That should count for something shouldn't it, other than being now categorized as a "classic"?

      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author centurion81
    it's unfortunate...but necessary.

    Kids grow up too fast - they should be having fun...not trying to make money online.

    Lots of time for that in the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by centurion81 View Post

      it's unfortunate...but necessary.

      Kids grow up too fast - they should be having fun...not trying to make money online.

      Lots of time for that in the future.
      For some kids the thrill and risk of trying to build a business is fun. I wouldn't deprive them of it if that's what they want to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeoDemon
    that's a sad news, i personally know some minors who enjoy this forum, anyway they can still read and learn
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