So you think you'd like to have affiliates promoting your product? Hmmm ... Maybe not.

by sbucciarel Banned
89 replies
I just ventured into the allowing affiliates to promote my products using both Warrior Plus and JV Zoo. One of the products was a $97 product with 50% commission. Out of 16 sales on one of the platforms, 5 of them were fraudulent sales, resulting in 3 credit card chargebacks to my Paypal account due to "unauthorized transactions."

One guy had 4 sales. Two were chargebacks. I refunded the other two of his after the chargebacks to prevent any more chargebacks. These sales had fake email addresses for the buyers ... email addresses that bounced when I emailed them. The commissions were not returned to me at all, even though they were processed through the platform as requested, so this guy got to keep the nearly $200 in commissions he made. Same with the other one, a girls' name who made one fraudulent sale resulting in an unauthorized transaction chargeback to my Paypal account.

That's nearly 1/3 of the sales from these affiliates that were fraudulent sales.

Lessons are often learned after the fact, but here's one for you.
Do not do "instant payments" to affiliates, unless you know them. Of course the site in question warns that, but the instant commissions are a nice benefit for affiliates ... if you could trust them. And of course, you probably don't know very many of the affiliates who apply. I denied approval to quite a few based on things like location and the fact that they didn't respond to my email that I sent them questioning them how they planned on promoting my offer, so I thought I was being careful by contacting them first before approving them. It wasn't enough, apparently.

I still have no idea what those two affiliates did to get sales that resulted in unauthorized transactions. As I said, I'm new to allowing affiliates to promote my products. If anyone knows what these scammer affiliates do, let me in on it.
#affiliates #hmmm #product #promoting
  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    That's why commissions don't lock for 30-60 days at the major affiliate networks -- to allow them to be voided in the event of returns, cancellations and fraud. I manage around 2000 active affiliates for my products and have to review every transaction every month for that kind of thing.

    They'll also bid against you for your brand/product name in search engines no matter how many times you tell them it's not allowed by the program. Anything to intercept a sale that's really already committed.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

    I still have no idea what those two affiliates did to get sales that resulted in unauthorized transactions. As I said, I'm new to allowing affiliates to promote my products. If anyone knows what these scammer affiliates do, let me in on it.
    I can't be sure but I'd bet the affiliates and the buyers are working together. What they're really after is your product. The only way they can get away with this is the unauthorized transaction trick.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      I can't be sure but I'd bet the affiliates and the buyers are working together. What they're really after is your product. The only way they can get away with this is the unauthorized transaction trick.
      Or the affiliate and the buyers are the same person, doing this to launder money. Take stolen credit cards, use them to buy products with affiliate programs. The cards eventually get reported stolen, but if that doesn't happen until after the lock period on their commission, they now have "clean" money from an affiliate network in their bank account they can spend risk-free.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

        I can't be sure but I'd bet the affiliates and the buyers are working together. What they're really after is your product. The only way they can get away with this is the unauthorized transaction trick.
        Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

        Or the affiliate and the buyers are the same person, doing this to launder money. Take stolen credit cards, use them to buy products with affiliate programs. The cards eventually get reported stolen, but if that doesn't happen until after the lock period on their commission, they now have "clean" money from an affiliate network in their bank account they can spend risk-free.
        I have no idea. The product gives you access to a membership site where you can download 44 blogs, so it takes time to do all that. The chargebacks didn't occur until the buyers would have had ample time to download everything. But I don't know if they actually are unauthorized transactions like they said or what it is.

        I did submit to Paypal screenshots of each "buyers'" info in the site showing that they had full access to the product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Davidstarz
    The instant affiliate payment method is truly not 100% safe for vendors. Also considering the fact it is paypal involved here.

    Holding payment for certain amount of days to weeks should done to help cater for charge backs and refunds. You should use clickbank for your payments because it is highly efficient for this and you can also receive payment via paypal.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by kelvindavid222 View Post

      The instant affiliate payment method is truly not 100% safe for vendors. Also considering the fact it is paypal involved here.

      Holding payment for certain amount of days to weeks should done to help cater for charge backs and refunds. You should use clickbank for your payments because it is highly efficient for this and you can also receive payment via paypal.
      It certainly isn't safe. The site says that if you run refunds through the site instead of Paypal, the commissions will be returned to your Paypal account automatically. That is ... unless of course, there are no funds in the affiilates' Paypal account, which was the case, since the commissions were not returned to me.

      As for Clickbank ... I don't really have Clickbank type products. I sell mostly websites, blogs, minisites.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Just an update: I found all five transactions in Paypal where I sent the commissions to those scam artist affiliates and disputed all 5. What goes around, comes around... especially the guy who was responsible for 4 sales and 2 chargebacks and 2 refunds in my Paypal account ...now he has 4 open disputes to deal with and I described exactly what was going in in the disputes.

    What really pisses me off is that 4 chargebacks in 4 days is more chargebacks than I've ever had in all the years that I've had a Paypal account. It really makes me rethink the whole affiliate thing.

    Was it worth it? No. Most of the sales came from me. The affiliate sales were a small portion of the total sales and 1/3 of the affiliate sales from one platform were fraudulent. Obviously, if you have super-affiliates promoting your products honestly, it's going to be profitable, but for the average seller who does not have super-affiliates promoting, joining these affiliate platforms just for the affiliates hasn't been worth the trouble it has caused in my Paypal account. The amount of traffic and sales they have sent has been really minimal.

    Anyone else have a different experience with affiliates on either of those platforms?
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Anyone else have a different experience with affiliates on either of those platforms?
      Just slightly. Out of 25 that applied to me, only one got accepted. Never made a sale (although that was more of the offer and the way I presented it + the audience the affiliate targeted). This was just on W+, but it seems there is a plethora of people that just threw up accounts and wait for new products to launch. Then they spam with requests.

      I'm sure a portion are out to do what they did to you. The rest just want to spam out to a list that they have (legitimate or not). Like you, I was kind of turned off of the affiliate platform by it. I'll be much more careful in the future, and probably just reach out to people myself.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

        Just slightly. Out of 25 that applied to me, only one got accepted. Never made a sale (although that was more of the offer and the way I presented it + the audience the affiliate targeted). This was just on W+, but it seems there is a plethora of people that just threw up accounts and wait for new products to launch. Then they spam with requests.

        I'm sure a portion are out to do what they did to you. The rest just want to spam out to a list that they have (legitimate or not). Like you, I was kind of turned off of the affiliate platform by it. I'll be much more careful in the future, and probably just reach out to people myself.
        Yeah ... after this experience, I'll most likely go back to using DLGuard for processing and not allow affiliates to promote my products. There were only two who committed outright fraud, but they were responsible for 1/3 of the affiliate sales, so that's a lot of fraud. The rest haven't driven more than a couple hundred visitors, and most less than 20 visitors. Just not worth the risk involved.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
    Good post, agreed - you need to know or at least have some idea about how the person is going to promote. If in doubt you can ask to see the email/website they will be using to promote and instant commissions is only good for people you trust.
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  • Profile picture of the author SethTheUBotGuy
    I'm a huge fan of great affiliate marketers, but in my own experience, I've also run into this:
    Quick-n-dirty affiliates often want to promote their links to your product. Not your actual product. Their goal can be to SEO their way to the top of the rankings, ahead of your own, or very close to it, for keywords like "'your product' coupon".

    I've even got affiliates on this very forum (gasp) competing with my own WSO with their classified ad. And when I've explained that's against the affiliate TOS, they've acted completely dumbfounded. But how else am I supposed to market your product?

    The solution is to seek out jv's and affiliates yourself, and vet them. Only find affiliates who care deeply about your product, and also to only offer discounts on a temporary basis.

    Also, we process our own payments and use Authorize.net with some pretty hefty fraud settings turned up, and we call every customer. If we can't reach them within a week, we refund the money ourselves.

    Hope this helps.

    Seth
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Well, just heard back from Paypal on the 4 disputes I made on the one affiliate scammer and naturally, I lost all four, so that's $200 paid to him for scamming me that he gets to keep in addition to the 2 refunds and 2 chargebacks from his transactions, costing me an additional $400... and then there's another $150 that I'll most likely lose through Paypal to the other affiliate so .... total lost to scam affiliates on this platform = $500.

    So much for sitting back and letting affiliates do the work for you. That can get pretty expensive. Now that I've lost the Paypal battle, I won't be using affiliates any longer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    As the owner of one of the biggest instant pay affiliate networks (although we're not as big on WF as W+ and JVZoo) I feel I should weigh in on this one.

    First off, let's deal with this misnomer -

    I can't be sure but I'd bet the affiliates and the buyers are working together. What they're really after is your product. The only way they can get away with this is the unauthorized transaction trick.
    They're really not. If someone wants the product without paying, they'll torrent/blackhat it or just plain buy and refund. Committing affiliate fraud just to get the product really isn't worth the hassle compared to the other options.

    So why are they doing it?

    Money, plain and simple.

    The affiliate gets stolen credit card info and opens a new PayPal account. He registers for an affiliate account with the PayPal account and uses the stolen credit card to make a purchase. The result is the PayPal account gets paid the commission, which he then cashes out to a bank account and closes the PayPal account, leaving the vendor on the hook for the full amount when the owner of the credit card discovers the fraud and issues a chargeback.

    What can you do about it?

    One option, as Suzanne has gone for, is to just not allow affiliates to promote your product. If you're not planning to actively engage in running your affiliate program, engaging with affiliates and so forth then this is definitely the best option.

    There's a myth that you can just list a product on an affiliate network and 100s of people will drive traffic to your sales page, making you tons of sales. The truth of the matter is, it just doesn't work this way. The people making it work are ... drum roll please ... working at it.

    You need to get out there and get affiliates to check out your product. You need to prove to them that it's worth promoting. You need to stay in touch with them to make sure they don't get bored and start promoting something else instead.

    But for anyone that does want the small amount of exposure that a network can offer just by listing it and doing no active recruitment work then you still have to put the time and effort into vetting your affiliates. At the very least, don't approve people you don't know to instant commission, set everyone to a 30 day delay.

    The problem with that is the legit affiliates expect to be paid instantly, it's the done thing now. So setting those guys to a 30 day delay means the few you may pick up just from listing will probably promote someone else that does approve them to instant.

    Cliff notes

    Managing an affiliate program takes work. Don't buy into the myth that you can just list a product and make a ton of sales. If you want to open up the affiliate channel, expect to put time and effort into it like any other marketing channel.
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  • Profile picture of the author lukee
    Banned
    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

    I just ventured into the allowing affiliates to promote my products using both Warrior Plus and JV Zoo. One of the products was a $97 product with 50% commission. Out of 16 sales on one of the platforms, 5 of them were fraudulent sales, resulting in 3 credit card chargebacks to my Paypal account due to "unauthorized transactions."

    One guy had 4 sales. Two were chargebacks. I refunded the other two of his after the chargebacks to prevent any more chargebacks. These sales had fake email addresses for the buyers ... email addresses that bounced when I emailed them. The commissions were not returned to me at all, even though they were processed through the platform as requested, so this guy got to keep the nearly $200 in commissions he made. Same with the other one, a girls' name who made one fraudulent sale resulting in an unauthorized transaction chargeback to my Paypal account.

    That's nearly 1/3 of the sales from these affiliates that were fraudulent sales.

    Lessons are often learned after the fact, but here's one for you.
    Do not do "instant payments" to affiliates, unless you know them. Of course the site in question warns that, but the instant commissions are a nice benefit for affiliates ... if you could trust them. And of course, you probably don't know very many of the affiliates who apply. I denied approval to quite a few based on things like location and the fact that they didn't respond to my email that I sent them questioning them how they planned on promoting my offer, so I thought I was being careful by contacting them first before approving them. It wasn't enough, apparently.

    I still have no idea what those two affiliates did to get sales that resulted in unauthorized transactions. As I said, I'm new to allowing affiliates to promote my products. If anyone knows what these scammer affiliates do, let me in on it.

    or better...just use clickbank?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

      Suzanne, I have always known you to be very meticulous; What happened?

      I have never done WSO but if I were to, I would only approve from a circle of regulars here on the main forum unless I have built a relationship with the marketers.

      These scammers are the worst of them all, makes me want to get postal.
      I thought I'd branch out and try something different for a change. So much for that idea, huh? :p

      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      As the owner of one of the biggest instant pay affiliate networks (although we're not as big on WF as W+ and JVZoo) I feel I should weigh in on this one.

      First off, let's deal with this misnomer -

      They're after your product
      They're really not. If someone wants the product without paying, they'll torrent/blackhat it or just plain buy and refund. Committing affiliate fraud just to get the product really isn't worth the hassle compared to the other options.
      This is true, Andy. If they were after my product, there wouldn't be 4 fraudulent sales from one guy. He doesn't need my product 4 times.

      Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

      So why are they doing it?

      Money, plain and simple.

      The affiliate gets stolen credit card info and opens a new PayPal account. He registers for an affiliate account with the PayPal account and uses the stolen credit card to make a purchase. The result is the PayPal account gets paid the commission, which he then cashes out to a bank account and closes the PayPal account, leaving the vendor on the hook for the full amount when the owner of the credit card discovers the fraud and issues a chargeback.
      This is exactly what I think happened. Stolen credit card fraud.

      Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

      What can you do about it?

      One option, as Suzanne has gone for, is to just not allow affiliates to promote your product. If you're not planning to actively engage in running your affiliate program, engaging with affiliates and so forth then this is definitely the best option.

      There's a myth that you can just list a product on an affiliate network and 100s of people will drive traffic to your sales page, making you tons of sales. The truth of the matter is, it just doesn't work this way. The people making it work are ... drum roll please ... working at it.

      You need to get out there and get affiliates to check out your product. You need to prove to them that it's worth promoting. You need to stay in touch with them to make sure they don't get bored and start promoting something else instead.

      But for anyone that does want the small amount of exposure that a network can offer just by listing it and doing no active recruitment work then you still have to put the time and effort into vetting your affiliates. At the very least, don't approve people you don't know to instant commission, set everyone to a 30 day delay.

      The problem with that is the legit affiliates expect to be paid instantly, it's the done thing now. So setting those guys to a 30 day delay means the few you may pick up just from listing will probably promote someone else that does approve them to instant.

      Cliff notes

      Managing an affiliate program takes work. Don't buy into the myth that you can just list a product and make a ton of sales. If you want to open up the affiliate channel, expect to put time and effort into it like any other marketing channel.
      Thanks ... coming from a Pro at affiliate networks, appreciate the input. I do know that the "real" affiliates want and expect instant payouts, and I'd honestly like to give it to them. As for only approving affiliates that I know ... of the ones that applied, that would be around 3 of them. lol.

      Originally Posted by lukee View Post

      or better...just use clickbank?
      I don't sell Clickbank type products. They wouldn't do very well on Clickbank.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Thanks ... coming from a Pro at affiliate networks, appreciate the input. I do know that the "real" affiliates want and expect instant payouts, and I'd honestly like to give it to them. As for only approving affiliates that I know ... of the ones that applied, that would be around 3 of them. lol.
        I'm not sure if W+ and JVZoo do it (I imagine they do) but at DigiResults we give the vendor contact details for every affiliate that applies. We also have an automated email system that you can put a template into.

        We personally use it for our own products, and all the top vendors do as well, to send a message introducing ourselves and asking for more info.

        The 80/20 rule is well in effect here. So 20% of your affiliates will make 80% of your sales. The bonus is that the 20% are also easy to spot based on their responses. Most of the long tail that will make few or no sales just won't respond so you can rule them out nice and quick.

        Of the ones that do, it doesn't take long to spot which are the guys that you should care about and which are time wasters.

        We typically get two types of response to our email. See if you can guess which one makes the sales

        "Hi, I'm Guy Smith, I sell Product X, Product Y and Product Z. Most of my sales would come from mailing my customer list. Do you need anything else?"

        "Hi, I'm Guy Smith, do you have banners I can put on Squidoo and can you teach me how to affiliate?"

        I wish I was making this up ... I truly do.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

          I'm not sure if W+ and JVZoo do it (I imagine they do) but at DigiResults we give the vendor contact details for every affiliate that applies. We also have an automated email system that you can put a template into.
          JVZoo gives the email address of the affiliate when they send the affiliate request. I did email them and those that did not respond back, didn't get approved. With Warrior Plus, there's a lot more info available, since they have a link to the WF profile and you can check out their join time, their posts, etc., so you can get a feel for who they are.

          Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

          We personally use it for our own products, and all the top vendors do as well, to send a message introducing ourselves and asking for more info.

          The 80/20 rule is well in effect here. So 20% of your affiliates will make 80% of your sales. The bonus is that the 20% are also easy to spot based on their responses. Most of the long tail that will make few or no sales just won't respond so you can rule them out nice and quick.

          Of the ones that do, it doesn't take long to spot which are the guys that you should care about and which are time wasters.

          We typically get two types of response to our email. See if you can guess which one makes the sales

          "Hi, I'm Guy Smith, I sell Product X, Product Y and Product Z. Most of my sales would come from mailing my customer list. Do you need anything else?"

          "Hi, I'm Guy Smith, do you have banners I can put on Squidoo and can you teach me how to affiliate?"

          I wish I was making this up ... I truly do.
          lol ... Well, I got a lot of responses back from affiliates when I questioned them about how they were going to promote and I got a lot of:

          "I've got a list of [insert 10-20,000] that would love this type of product. Of those people, I received less than 20 visitors each. I got a little over 300 visitors from one affiliate and a little over 200 from 2 more and the rest are all less than 20 visitors.

          The one fraudulent one ... 1 visitor and it was fraud. The other guy with 4 fraudulent sales, a little over 200 visitors. Thank goodness only 4 sales from his "campaign".
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  • Profile picture of the author mgreener
    Hi,

    Sorry to hear that. It sucks, but you have to do a 30-60 day period depending on your refund policy otherwise you already know what happens.

    Two ways that people pump through these junk sales are:

    1. in extreme cases, using stolen credit card info
    2. more commonly, tacking on the sales to other transactions and/or spamming enormous lists (think: make money at home) to see who bites. A lot of the people that end up buying are so confused at what is going on and being hammered with 50 offers a day that they get fed up and chargeback all their recent transactions.

    A few good affiliates are better than an army of junk/spammy ones.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lewey Lu
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Marden
      Originally Posted by Lewey Lu View Post

      Agree, it's a double edge sword. The same with Direct Response, top Direct Response Marketers do not use CPA networks and affiliates to drive traffic anymore because of fraudulent traffic. They have now an internal team media buying team that driving them quality traffic.

      If you want a list of these traffic source (email and banner), PM me. I can't simply put a link here.

      Cheers,

      Lewey
      This is true...I'm running a direct response campaign now and we do not use affiliates...Too risky..tons of chargebacks can really throw a monkey wrench in things.
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  • Profile picture of the author aroth
    jeez!!! learned something new today.
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    • Profile picture of the author Walter Parrish
      Originally Posted by aroth View Post

      jeez!!! learned something new today.
      lol you and me both.
      And the sad part most of the slow down with the sites I'm developing is setting up for affiliates. The longer I'm in the IM game the more it seems like SEO is the most important thing. I guess I better really go over what some of these Guru's have been saying. I don't remember any of them mentioning setting up affiliate programs.
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  • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
    I'm sorry to hear about this, I will consider my options carefully when I launch a product. Can you set the commission period to whatever you like on W+? I thought it was an instant commission platform. I presume the same thing happens over at RapBank as well?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

      I'm sorry to hear about this, I will consider my options carefully when I launch a product. Can you set the commission period to whatever you like on W+? I thought it was an instant commission platform. I presume the same thing happens over at RapBank as well?
      Yeah ... you can set the commission amount to anything you want I think with both Warrior Plus and JVZoo. With Warrior Plus, I haven't found where you set whether or not it is delayed or instant payment. With JVZoo, it's in the dashboard and I highly recommend delayed payment.

      A lot of affiliates won't bother to promote with delayed commissions, but I wouldn't have paid $250 to a couple of scam artists if I had set it to delayed.
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      • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Yeah ... you can set the commission amount to anything you want I think with both Warrior Plus and JVZoo. With Warrior Plus, I haven't found where you set whether or not it is delayed or instant payment. With JVZoo, it's in the dashboard and I highly recommend delayed payment.

        A lot of affiliates won't bother to promote with delayed commissions, but I wouldn't have paid $250 to a couple of scam artists if I had set it to delayed.
        I understand there is a lot of fraud going on, but this thread has taught me a thing or two. I thought there would be more protection for the buyer with it been an instant commission platform. How about sending a well worded email to all affiliates explaining that fraud is happening at the moment, and you have decided to set the commission period to say 7 days. Would this weed out the scammers? The genuine affiliates would appreciate that concern and agree to that period surely. If the product is a good product that would definitely earn them money, then really they should be happy to agree to it.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

          I understand there is a lot of fraud going on, but this thread has taught me a thing or two. I thought there would be more protection for the buyer with it been an instant commission platform. How about sending a well worded email to all affiliates explaining that fraud is happening at the moment, and you have decided to set the commission period to say 7 days. Would this weed out the scammers? The genuine affiliates would appreciate that concern and agree to that period surely. If the product is a good product that would definitely earn them money, then really they should be happy to agree to it.
          I'm not sure 7 days is enough to help protect you. The fraudulent purchases were made Aug 9 and 13th and the chargebacks were just filed this week in Paypal and two potential chargebacks had not been filed yet ... I refunded those to prevent chargebacks from those sales.
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          • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            I'm not sure 7 days is enough to help protect you. The fraudulent purchases were made Aug 9 and 13th and the chargebacks were just filed this week in Paypal and two potential chargebacks had not been filed yet ... I refunded those to prevent chargebacks from those sales.
            If a stolen credit card was used, then how long before a chargeback is requested by the card company? Would you suggest a 30 day period considering what you've just been through, as been enough time to weed out the scammers?
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

              If a stolen credit card was used, then how long before a chargeback is requested by the card company? Would you suggest a 30 day period considering what you've just been through, as been enough time to weed out the scammers?
              Minimum 30 days. Some chargebacks could still come through up to 60 days, but these transactions would have been covered by 30 days hold.
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              • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                Minimum 30 days. Some chargebacks could still come through up to 60 days, but these transactions would have been covered by 30 days hold.
                This must be widespread nowadays and you would think that something would be put in place to protect the vendors. Clickbank hold 10% don't they in case of chargebacks? So why don't other affiliate platforms do they same to offset some of the losses? Is Clickbank managed by a different payment processor to W+ and JVZoo? Or are the rules governed by the banks they use?
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

                  This must be widespread nowadays and you would think that something would be put in place to protect the vendors. Clickbank hold 10% don't they in case of chargebacks? So why don't other affiliate platforms do they same to offset some of the losses? Is Clickbank managed by a different payment processor to W+ and JVZoo? Or are the rules governed by the banks they use?
                  Well, delayed payments are for the protection of the vendors. Everyone is a newbie at something and I admit to being a newbie when it comes to dealing with affiliates. These guys are slick. Their name on the platform wasn't anywhere close to their name in Paypal and the email addresses to the actual buyers bounced. That is what confuses me. If these were stolen credit cards, why would the Paypal email addresses of the buyers bounce so I couldn't contact them? But that's a fact ... they did.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Well, delayed payments are for the protection of the vendors. Everyone is a newbie at something and I admit to being a newbie when it comes to dealing with affiliates. These guys are slick. Their name on the platform wasn't anywhere close to their name in Paypal and the email addresses to the actual buyers bounced. That is what confuses me. If these were stolen credit cards, why would the Paypal email addresses of the buyers bounce so I couldn't contact them? But that's a fact ... they did.
                    I'd rather not give these a backlink, but you've seen those stealth eBay and Paypal accounts you can create?

                    - www. auctionstealth.com

                    I reckon the scammers are using these to rip people off, I think they use those Virtual Credit cards you can get. PayPal need to be more responsible when allowing accounts to be opened, its like they're not even bothered there are guides out teaching you how to open them.
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              • Profile picture of the author Carol_A
                I'm really sorry you had this horrible first experience.

                With the recent upgrade to the JV Zoo platform, I was actively planning my first product launch...

                You've given me some very good food for thought as I enter into this. Fortunately, I do have some friends in the wings ready to promote once it goes live so won't be relying on strangers at all.

                I set up an affiliate page and have been creating a list of active, interested affiliates. I think the networking ahead of time is key. Yep, it's all work, but I love what I do!

                I really appreciate you sharing the details of your experience.....this will help a lot of folks, including me!

                Take Care,
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Carol_A View Post

                  I'm really sorry you had this horrible first experience.

                  With the recent upgrade to the JV Zoo platform, I was actively planning my first product launch...

                  You've given me some very good food for thought as I enter into this. Fortunately, I do have some friends in the wings ready to promote once it goes live so won't be relying on strangers at all.

                  I set up an affiliate page and have been creating a list of active, interested affiliates. I think the networking ahead of time is key. Yep, it's all work, but I love what I do!

                  I really appreciate you sharing the details of your experience.....this will help a lot of folks, including me!

                  Take Care,
                  Yep ... planning ahead and networking with potential affiliates is the way to go as Andy Fletcher said.
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              • Profile picture of the author J Bold
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                Minimum 30 days. Some chargebacks could still come through up to 60 days, but these transactions would have been covered by 30 days hold.
                As I understand it, unlike normal Paypal and Clickbank limits of around 60 days' refund period, chargebacks can actually occur up to 180 days after the sale. That's how long the credit card companies give their customers to file chargeback requests.

                (I know you're talking about stolen credit cards and maybe credit card company policies, but in any case they can still file it 180 days after sale)
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    People only get credit card statements in the mail once a month. They usually don't read them immediately. If they notice a fraudulent charge, it takes another 1-5 BANKING days for the chargeback to get from their bank, to one of PayPal's underwriting banks (Wells Fargo and Chase), into PayPal's system and into your e-mail.

    So really the minimum lock period for commissions has to be 45-60 days if you want to be able to reverse most commissions earned with stolen credit cards. That's why the major networks that work with large companies pay every 30 days... but it's two months ago's commissions they're paying out.
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  • Profile picture of the author colinph970
    I had exactly the same problem. I did one WSO which had a less than 1% refund rate, no issues, fairly low price. I had a follow up product (more expensive) and got quite a few of these chargeback issues where people (probably the real credit card holder) disputed the transaction - result was over $400 lost and it really pissed me off.

    Now I don't set instant payment to ANY affiliate bar two that are very well known on here and I know from past experience they are trustworthy. Everyone else gets delayed payment.

    I just totalled up total number of affiliates - over 200. The number that made sales - just 25 and most of them were single sales. 90% of the affiliate sales were done by just 6 affiliates.

    Moral? Most affiliates are a complete waste of time and effort.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

      People only get credit card statements in the mail once a month. They usually don't read them immediately. If they notice a fraudulent charge, it takes another 1-5 BANKING days for the chargeback to get from their bank, to one of PayPal's underwriting banks (Wells Fargo and Chase), into PayPal's system and into your e-mail.

      So really the minimum lock period for commissions has to be 45-60 days if you want to be able to reverse most commissions earned with stolen credit cards. That's why the major networks that work with large companies pay every 30 days... but it's two months ago's commissions they're paying out.
      And therein is the Catch 22. Many affiliates aren't going to be interested with that kind of delay in payment but it's the only way to protect yourself from fraud.

      Originally Posted by colinph970 View Post

      I had exactly the same problem. I did one WSO which had a less than 1% refund rate, no issues, fairly low price. I had a follow up product (more expensive) and got quite a few of these chargeback issues where people (probably the real credit card holder) disputed the transaction - result was over $400 lost and it really pissed me off.

      Now I don't set instant payment to ANY affiliate bar two that are very well known on here and I know from past experience they are trustworthy. Everyone else gets delayed payment.

      I just totalled up total number of affiliates - over 200. The number that made sales - just 25 and most of them were single sales. 90% of the affiliate sales were done by just 6 affiliates.

      Moral? Most affiliates are a complete waste of time and effort.
      That about sums it up. The majority of the affiliate sales, unfortunately were done by the scammer who made 4 sales. The non-scam sales were just one or two by a few affiliates. The whole experiment was both costly and a waste of time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        And therein is the Catch 22. Many affiliates aren't going to be interested with that kind of delay in payment but it's the only way to protect yourself from fraud.
        Your view of what affiliates find acceptable seems skewed.

        All of Amazon.com's several hundred thousand affiliates get paid no earlier than 60 days after the sale.

        63% of the largest online retailers in the world run their program on Commission Junction; all those affiliates get paid 45-60 days later at earliest.

        2,500 merchants run their programs through ShareASale, which pays out approx. 50 days after the sale (and can be longer depending on the merchant).

        I'm sure I don't need to go on...
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

          Your view of what affiliates find acceptable seems skewed.

          All of Amazon.com's several hundred thousand affiliates get paid no earlier than 60 days after the sale.

          63% of the largest online retailers in the world run their program on Commission Junction; all those affiliates get paid 45-60 days later at earliest.

          2,500 merchants run their programs through ShareASale, which pays out approx. 50 days after the sale (and can be longer depending on the merchant).

          I'm sure I don't need to go on...
          True ... I'm not an affiliate marketer, so I hadn't really thought about those sites but yeah, you're right. I did get requests from affiliates in JVZoo to turn on instant payments. At any rate, it's turned off now with the exception of the 3 people that I do actually know.
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          • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            True ... I'm not an affiliate marketer, so I hadn't really thought about those sites but yeah, you're right. I did get requests from affiliates in JVZoo to turn on instant payments. At any rate, it's turned off now with the exception of the 3 people that I do actually know.
            Considering those facts above which are true, would you rethink using Affiliates as long as the period was set to 45 days say. You would be leaving money on the table otherwise wouldn't you?
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

              Your view of what affiliates find acceptable seems skewed.

              All of Amazon.com's several hundred thousand affiliates get paid no earlier than 60 days after the sale.

              63% of the largest online retailers in the world run their program on Commission Junction; all those affiliates get paid 45-60 days later at earliest.

              2,500 merchants run their programs through ShareASale, which pays out approx. 50 days after the sale (and can be longer depending on the merchant).

              I'm sure I don't need to go on...
              Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

              Considering those facts above which are true, would you rethink using Affiliates as long as the period was set to 45 days say. You would be leaving money on the table otherwise wouldn't you?
              There were 16 sales at $97 through the one platform. Eight of them were mine, so 8 were affiliates at approx $800. I received half of that, which is $400. Five out of the 8 affiliate sales were fraudulent and ended up in chargebacks and refunds. So I lost $500 in Paypal. That puts me $100 in the hole for the sales from affiliates and I'm on pins and needles wondering what 4 chargebacks in 4 days is going to do to my Paypal account, which has never had many refunds or chargebacks and never been limited. I'm also on pins and needles wondering if there's more to come. I just received a sale notification from the platform and my heart skipped a beat until I saw that I made the sale and not an affiliate. So I need to learn more about using affiliates or stop using them altogether.

              Honestly, I don't see myself contacting people and asking them to promote my stuff so these platforms seemed like an easy way to get affiliates ... and they are. But there's a high risk involved, even if you set the payments to delayed, as Dan G pointed out that the period of time credit card companies allow for chargebacks is quite long.
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              • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                There were 16 affiliate sales at $97. I received half of that, which is $1,552. Take away the 5 fraudulent sales and that brings it to $1,052, so yeah ... I made $1K from affiliates but I'm on pins and needles wondering what 4 chargebacks in 4 days is going to do to my Paypal account, which has never had many refunds or chargebacks and never been limited. I'm also on pins and needles wondering if there's more to come. I just received a sale notification from the platform and my heart skipped a beat until I saw that I made the sale and not an affiliate. So I need to learn more about using affiliates or stop using them altogether.

                Honestly, I don't see myself contacting people and asking them to promote my stuff so these platforms seemed like an easy way to get affiliates ... and they are. But there's a high risk involved, even if you set the payments to delayed, as Dan G pointed out that the period of time credit card companies allow for chargebacks is quite long.
                I don't have a product myself yet although I am working on it, that's why I'm interested in what's happened to you. But if it was me I wouldn't be put off the affiliate model because of a few idiots, you just need to rethink how you approach it. How about creating a nicely worded email that is sent out to all potential affiliates with your own terms in it, stating that because of problems in the past that you set all of your commission periods to 45 days say. Anyone that grumbles isn't worth bothering with unless they are a renowned affiliate and you trust them 100%, in which case you allow instant payments.

                I think the affiliate model works, it has just been spoiled by a few newbies and scammers. Surely by setting your time period to 45 days, it allows any fraudulent users to be found out. You could also tell them you want their details, much the same as DigiResults does and maybe do a small interview on Skype or by PM on here. At least that way, other people are working for you instead of you doing all the hard work.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

                  I don't have a product myself yet although I am working on it, that's why I'm interested in what's happened to you. But if it was me I wouldn't be put off the affiliate model because of a few idiots, you just need to rethink how you approach it. How about creating a nicely worded email that is sent out to all potential affiliates with your own terms in it, stating that because of problems in the past that you set all of your commission periods to 45 days say. Anyone that grumbles isn't worth bothering with unless they are a renowned affiliate and you trust them 100%, in which case you allow instant payments.

                  I think the affiliate model works, it has just been spoiled by a few newbies and scammers. Surely by setting your time period to 45 days, it allows any fraudulent users to be found out. You could also tell them you want their details, much the same as DigiResults does and maybe do a small interview on Skype or by PM on here. At least that way, other people are working for you instead of you doing all the hard work.
                  I forgot that out of the 16 sales through the platform, 8 of them were mine, so I just edited the profit part of my last post.

                  There were 16 sales at $97 through the one platform. Eight of them were mine, so 8 were affiliates at approx $800. I received half of that, which is $400. Five out of the 8 affiliate sales were fraudulent and ended up in chargebacks and refunds. So I lost $500 in Paypal. That puts me $100 in the hole for the sales from affiliates
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                  • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    I forgot that out of the 16 sales through the platform, 8 of them were mine, so I just edited the profit part of my last post.
                    So what are you saying, you only lost $100 really as they were digital products so you can cover your own profit, as its not really losing money. Doesn't sound as bad now, is that right?
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

                      So what are you saying, you only lost $100 really as they were digital products so you can cover your own profit, as its not really losing money. Doesn't sound as bad now, is that right?
                      I value the products that I put a lot of time into creating... but the biggest thing is ... think about it. 5 out of 8 sales were fraud. That's huge. And I don't particularly care for the idea that I had to pay scammers $250 of my hard earned money to rip me off.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                        I value the products that I put a lot of time into creating... but the biggest thing is ... think about it. 5 out of 8 sales were fraud. That's huge. And I don't particularly care for the idea that I had to pay scammers $250 of my hard earned money to rip me off.
                        I agree that it sucks and that 5 out of 8 is huge, no doubt. I'm sorry you were burned by some idiots. You mentioned that you were $100 in the hole above, but this post says $250. I'm a bit confused, put me straight.
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                        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

                          I agree that it sucks and that 5 out of 8 is huge, no doubt. I'm sorry you were burned by some idiots. You mentioned that you were $100 in the hole above, but this post says $250. I'm a bit confused, put me straight.
                          8 affiliates = $800
                          My profit from that was $400
                          5 returned payments in Paypal - $500
                          So out of my profit, I lose $100, but they keep their profit. The commission was not returned to me, so it's a total loss of $350 on the affiliate side.

                          Correction: Total loss of $200 since I did make a $150 from the legitimate affiliates.
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                          • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                            8 affiliates = $800
                            My profit from that was $400
                            5 returned payments in Paypal - $500
                            So out of my profit, I lose $100, but they keep their profit. The commission was not returned to me.
                            So it was a 50% commission to the affiliate, which means they got $400 doesn't it and you kept $400? 5 of those 8 sales were fraud, so the refund was $500 total, which all came from your profit and you were down $100. The scammers kept the other half of the money tho as they couldn't retrieve it, so doesn't that make the scammers $400 up and you just $100 down. Sorry for been a dunce if its clearer than that, im tired! :confused:
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                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

                              So it was a 50% commission to the affiliate, which means they got $400 doesn't it and you kept $400? 5 of those 8 sales were fraud, so the refund was $500 total, which all came from your profit and you were down $100. The scammers kept the other half of the money tho as they couldn't retrieve it, so doesn't that make the scammers $400 up and you just $100 down. Sorry for been a dunce if its clearer than that, im tired! :confused:
                              There were 5 fraudulent transactions. So I paid one guy $200 and one girl (allegedly) $50 to rip me off.

                              So down $100 on the profits, plus paying rip off artists another $250 = $350.
                              So I have 3 other affiliates without problems so far. That's $300, and I keep $150 of that, so take that $150 out of the $350 loss and it's just a $200 loss from affiliate sales altogether and the risk of messing up my Paypal account due to 3 chargebacks and 2 refunds in 4 days.
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                              • Profile picture of the author MrMonetize
                                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                There were 5 fraudulent transactions. So I paid one guy $200 and one girl (allegedly) $50 to rip me off.

                                So down $100 on the profits, plus paying rip off artists another $250 = $350.
                                So I have 3 other affiliates without problems so far. That's $300, and I keep $150 of that, so take that $150 out of the $350 loss and it's just a $200 loss from affiliate sales altogether and the risk of messing up my Paypal account due to 3 chargebacks and 2 refunds in 4 days.
                                Gotcha, I am tired now looking at all these numbers! Nearly 2am here in the UK!
                                I hope this doesn't put you off completely, but this thread has taught me something and no doubt a lot of others too. Thanks for sharing what's happened.
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                                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

                                  Gotcha, I am tired now looking at all these numbers! Nearly 2am here in the UK!
                                  I hope this doesn't put you off completely, but this thread has taught me something and no doubt a lot of others too. Thanks for sharing what's happened.
                                  Hey ... the thought of having affiliates do a lot of promotional work for you is appealing and I admit that I am green in this area, so I made mistakes and I think that others should know that you have to be very careful when using these platforms and DO NOT pay instant commissions and try to vet the affiliates. I guess an email isn't enough.

                                  Like I said ... 5 out of 8 transactions being fraudulent is pretty bad. Not only for me, but if it was stolen credit cards, the card holders also got ripped, although they are getting their money back. This is not easy money and I won't be doing it this way again.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                                There were 5 fraudulent transactions. So I paid one guy $200 and one girl (allegedly) $50 to rip me off.

                                So down $100 on the profits, plus paying rip off artists another $250 = $350.
                                So I have 3 other affiliates without problems so far. That's $300, and I keep $150 of that, so take that $150 out of the $350 loss and it's just a $200 loss from affiliate sales altogether and the risk of messing up my Paypal account due to 3 chargebacks and 2 refunds in 4 days.
                                Doesn't Paypal also charge $30.00 or so for chargebacks? If so, that's another $90.00 out of your pocket.
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                                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

                                  Doesn't Paypal also charge $30.00 or so for chargebacks? If so, that's another $90.00 out of your pocket.
                                  Yep. That's coming. Right now the chargebacks are in Paypal investigation limbo, but the chargeback fees are coming sooner or later.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wendy Maki
    I'm just thinking out loud...

    ...if only a small percentage of affiliates actually make any sales...
    it stands to reason that the ones who do are experienced and are not so desperate that they 'need' to be paid immediately...

    ...so I don't think those few really good affiliates that you actually want would be detered by the delay in payment...

    ...and those who want the instant payment are probably the ones you want to weed out anyways...

    ...so I'm sort of thinking that there just doesn't seem to be any good argument for instant payments anyways...

    thoughts????
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    My opinion, if you don't trust them enough to do instant payments, don't approve them at all.

    Also, again in my opinion joining the platforms like JVZoo, etc. is not usually to just attract random affiliates who may want to promote, as those are not the ones you want. The affiliates you want, you need to go and ask them to promote for you.

    My two cents. I don't approve anyone unless I'm sure about them, completely.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

      My opinion, if you don't trust them enough to do instant payments, don't approve them at all.

      Also, again in my opinion joining the platforms like JVZoo, etc. is not usually to just attract random affiliates who may want to promote, as those are not the ones you want. The affiliates you want, you need to go and ask them to promote for you.

      My two cents. I don't approve anyone unless I'm sure about them, completely.
      Well, then that eliminates the majority of affiliates on either platform. I only recognized 3 people out of the ones who requested to promote my products. But yeah, that's good advice in hindsight.

      Originally Posted by J Bold View Post

      As I understand it, unlike normal Paypal and Clickbank limits of around 60 days' refund period, chargebacks can actually occur up to 180 days after the sale. That's how long the credit card companies give their customers to file chargeback requests.

      (I know you're talking about stolen credit cards and maybe credit card company policies, but in any case they can still file it 180 days after sale)
      Great ... something to look forward to I guess. Not only is the vendor a victim in this, but the credit card holder is also a victim. Don't know how their credit card info gets stolen, but apparently it does.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

    And therein is the Catch 22. Many affiliates aren't going to be interested with that kind of delay in payment but it's the only way to protect yourself from fraud.
    Your view of what affiliates find acceptable seems skewed.

    All of Amazon.com's several hundred thousand affiliates get paid no earlier than 60 days after the sale.

    63% of the largest online retailers in the world run their program on Commission Junction; all those affiliates get paid 45-60 days later at earliest.

    2,500 merchants run their programs through ShareASale, which pays out approx. 50 days after the sale (and can be longer depending on the merchant).

    Go anywhere the largest non-bizopp affiliate programs in the world are, and the payouts are delayed 45-60 days. And they have more affiliates than any IM product.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

    The commissions were not returned to me at all, even though they were processed through the platform as requested, so this guy got to keep the nearly $200 in commissions he made.
    Have you had a chat with JVZoo or W+ to discuss why there was failure in having commissions on refunds returned to your account? And of course to discuss banning the affiliate?

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      Have you had a chat with JVZoo or W+ to discuss why there was failure in having commissions on refunds returned to your account? And of course to discuss banning the affiliate?

      .
      JVZoo banned the girl affiliate before I even realized what was happening. She just disappeared from my affiliate list. They banned the guy with 4 transactions after I discussed what was happening. They have no control over returning my commissions if that affiliate has drained his Paypal account of the money. You run a refund through the platform so that if the money is there, it is returned to you. Apparently, the money was not there any longer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Wow Suzanne that sucks. I would like to assume that you created a killer $97 product. Any response/feedback as to why the chargebacks and refunds were like so?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Randall Magwood View Post

      Wow Suzanne that sucks. I would like to assume that you created a killer $97 product. Any response/feedback as to why the chargebacks and refunds were like so?
      It isn't the product. I've never had a problem with refunds or chargebacks with any of my products. Never.

      The affiliate commission on a $97 product is $48.50 which is pretty appealing to affiliates, especially rip off artists who have a system set up to make some fraudulent sales and get paid that commission and then pull all that money out of Paypal before it's too late. It's a business model, I guess.

      These were not unhappy customers requesting chargebacks and refunds. These were purely fraudulent transactions. I mentioned earlier that I tried to contact these customers and the email from the paypal account that paid me for the transactions bounced. All of them. I still don't know what that's about. Maybe it wasn't stolen credit cards from real people. Perhaps it was the affiliate working with another with a Paypal account or their own Paypal account to file the chargebacks. I really don't know what exactly went on, but it was fraud.
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  • Profile picture of the author Defacto
    They warn you at JVZOO not to give instant commissions unless you know and trust the affiliate.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Defacto View Post

      They warn you at JVZOO not to give instant commissions unless you know and trust the affiliate.
      Guess you missed it on the first page where I said that at least once or twice.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    So it would seem that one strategy might be, using Warrior Plus, run a successful WSO and approve no affiliates. Make such a great offer it gets Mike Lance's attention and he makes it WSO of the day.

    He's really the only affiliate you need.

    Of course being WSO of the day might attract some well known affiliates.

    George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author IM Lover
    Honestly sbucciarel I feel so bad for you, your a great member and do not deserve this. You help out members constantly on here, it's always the nice members that this BS happens to. Not that anyone deserves it of course.

    This has really highlighted some red flags for me now, at the very least you have helped out some of us by educating people, so out of all the crap you have still managed to help others.

    We will not forget that sbucciarel, please don't let it get you down to much.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      So it would seem that one strategy might be, using Warrior Plus, run a successful WSO and approve no affiliates. Make such a great offer it gets Mike Lance's attention and he makes it WSO of the day.

      He's really the only affiliate you need.

      George Wright
      I hear you. Hey Mike .. pick me, pick me. lol.

      Originally Posted by PPD Coach View Post

      Honestly sbucciarel I feel so bad for you, your a great member and do not deserve this. You help out members constantly on here, it's always the nice members that this BS happens to. Not that anyone deserves it of course.

      This has really highlighted some red flags for me now, at the very least you have helped out some of us by educating people, so out of all the crap you have still managed to help others.

      We will not forget that sbucciarel, please don't let it get you down to much.
      Hey, don't worry. I'm not down. This was just a lesson. If you don't try new things, you'll never learn anything, even if what you learn is "don't do that again."
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  • Profile picture of the author mrmarketer1
    I agree with you. When putting my first product on JVzoo I was psyched when getting affiliate requests - then saw a pattern...I would get a request to accept a new affiliate and then within 30 minutes would get one purchase from another email address. And that was the last I heard from the affiliate. Just an easy way to get a product at a deep discount. Getting to the point where I don't accept affiliates unless I know them through a more direct route. Another reason to 'get out there' and meet people instead of relying on online methods.

    Whats other people experiences of best ways to make affiliate relationships?

    MM
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mrmarketer1 View Post

      I agree with you. When putting my first product on JVzoo I was psyched when getting affiliate requests - then saw a pattern...I would get a request to accept a new affiliate and then within 30 minutes would get one purchase from another email address. And that was the last I heard from the affiliate. Just an easy way to get a product at a deep discount. Getting to the point where I don't accept affiliates unless I know them through a more direct route. Another reason to 'get out there' and meet people instead of relying on online methods.

      Whats other people experiences of best ways to make affiliate relationships?

      MM
      I had the same experience. Affiliates with 1 sale and then zero traffic. Obviously just wanted to get the product for half price.

      But that's a good question. Using affiliates from these sites is risky and not very profitable, and if you go by the advice of not approving affiliates you don't know, well that would be most of them in my case and probably most people's cases, so how else do people get experienced, honest affiliates to promote for you?
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Hi Suzanne,

        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I had the same experience. Affiliates with 1 sale and then zero traffic. Obviously just wanted to get the product for half price.
        I don't think that was their goal, and I've confirmed it with Paypal.

        I had a phone conversation with a Paypal rep re: a chargeback against my own account. They were not concerned about it (at least the rep I talked to was pretty laid back about the whole situation), and stated that they see this often. According to the rep, people in possession of a stolen card will often use it for an online purchase just to verify that the charge will go through. After establishing that, the person can sell the stolen card (vs. using it themselves for additional purchases).

        But that's a good question. Using affiliates from these sites is risky and not very profitable, and if you go by the advice of not approving affiliates you don't know, well that would be most of them in my case and probably most people's cases, so how else do people get experienced, honest affiliates to promote for you?
        As pointed out so well by Andy Fletcher, using affiliates as a part of your sales strategy requires that you recruit affiliates, and that you vet them. We all want only the best affiliates, but somehow expect them to "magically" appear at our door?

        Affiliate networks are great for passively recruiting affiliates, but then you have much less control over the quality of the affiliate - or even if the affiliate is really just testing stolen credit cards to make sure that they haven't been reported as stolen.
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  • Profile picture of the author marketinguk
    Wow, i'm sorry to hear this Suzanne this is a lesson to me as well.

    I was also a newbie in approving affiliates and I ran my recent WSO through Warrior Plus and initially accepted anyone that came along, but over time stopped this and got very selective.

    This puts me even more on the alert for the future.

    Joel
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  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Marden
    This has brought some perspective to what i was initially thinking. Although I don't use affiliates for my direct response campaign (its a physical product)

    I do have an info product in mind and thought I would use affiliates for that...but now after reading this, I see When i create it and go to sell it, I will have to be very cautious if using affiliates.

    I think I will not offer instant commissions...If this gives me limited affiliates, so be it..I understand that 80 percent of my sales will come from 20 percent of my affiliates..so its quality over quantity thinking here

    I wonder if there is a way to carefully vet out out the potential affiliates before you even launch? Setting it up before hand? Is the only way by soliciting them personally?
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Stephen Marden View Post

      This has brought some perspective to what i was initially thinking. Although I don't use affiliates for my direct response campaign (its a physical product)

      I do have an info product in mind and thought I would use affiliates for that...but now after reading this, I see When i create it and go to sell it, I will have to be very cautious if using affiliates.

      I think I will not offer instant commissions...If this gives me limited affiliates, so be it..I understand that 80 percent of my sales will come from 20 percent of my affiliates..so its quality over quantity thinking here

      I wonder if there is a way to carefully vet out out the potential affiliates before you even launch? Setting it up before hand? Is the only way by soliciting them personally?
      That seems to be the million dollar question ... where to find experienced, honest affiliates to promote your products, preferably pre-launch so they have a chance to get ready to promote and you have a chance to vet/get to know them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Stephen Marden
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        That seems to be the million dollar question ... where to find experienced, honest affiliates to promote your products, preferably pre-launch so they have a chance to get ready to promote and you have a chance to vet/get to know them.
        If you find out where or how to do this, I'm all ears.

        I'm not at the point of looking for affiliates yet as I'm still in product creation mode, but if in the course of my networking and research, I find out how, I will keep you in mind
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
        It's plain to see why PayPal are said to have affiliate marketers marked in their black books when this type of thing goes down.

        Unfortunately there's too much shenanigans for comfort...


        Daniel
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          I think Dan was spot on in his comments on page one. ShareaSale, Commission Junction and other affiliate programs don't just take anyone who signs up or who pays a monthly fee.

          I'm not sure I agree with the thinking that you lose affiliates if you don't offer instant payment. The biggest affiliate programs have delays and yet they long running and profitable. Maybe the only affiliates you would lose are the ones not producing.

          I'd rather wait for payment from an affiliate program that didn't make it easy for cheats and clueless link blasters to be promoting the same products.

          kay
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I think Dan was spot on in his comments on page one. ShareaSale, Commission Junction and other affiliate programs don't just take anyone who signs up or who pays a monthly fee.

            I'm not sure I agree with the thinking that you lose affiliates if you don't offer instant payment. The biggest affiliate programs have delays and yet they long running and profitable. Maybe the only affiliates you would lose are the ones not producing.

            I'd rather wait for payment from an affiliate program that didn't make it easy for cheats and clueless link blasters to be promoting the same products.

            kay

            I'm sure you're right. I think I used the term affiliate rather loosely when describing the majority of the people who apply to promote your product on these sites (this does not apply to the 2 people who applied that I actually do know and respect... you know who you are).

            I think that all the experienced affiliates that know how to drive traffic to an offer are not going to be interested in the small product launches. I don't create products that are easy to hype or make income claims, etc. I don't crash servers when I launch a product. lol.

            I think that the experienced affiliates come to the BIG launches and offers without an invitation. They seek them out. On some lists that I have been on, you can really see this in action. I get the same offer from numerous people and if I were actually on more lists, I'd be getting more of them for the same offers.

            I know there are super affiliates who are sought out, but the others that fall into experienced but not super ... all seem to promote the same stuff. Just an observation. I could, of course, be wrong, but it seems that way in my inbox.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jamshed
    so many chargebacks to your Paypal account .. thanks for heads up dude .. I had some products and was searching a way to sell them. This helps allot for newer like me .
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  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    Suzanne,

    I think (whether you are aware of it, or not) you have built some good relationships here on the WF. That's where you need to start when recruiting affiliates.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

      Suzanne,

      I think (whether you are aware of it, or not) you have built some good relationships here on the WF. That's where you need to start when recruiting affiliates.
      Forget that. neeewwbiiie128347403928374 probably has a bigger and better list :p.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Hey Joe,

        Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

        Forget that. neeewwbiiie128347403928374 probably has a bigger and better list :p.
        Bigger, maybe. Better - I doubt it.

        But then you knew that (didn't you?).

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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

      As pointed out so well by Andy Fletcher, using affiliates as a part of your sales strategy requires that you recruit affiliates, and that you vet them. We all want only the best affiliates, but somehow expect them to "magically" appear at our door?

      Affiliate networks are great for passively recruiting affiliates, but then you have much less control over the quality of the affiliate - or even if the affiliate is really just testing stolen credit cards to make sure that they haven't been reported as stolen.
      Yeah, I get that now. The affiliate platforms that seem to promise bringing products and affiliates together apparently don't do the job without a high risk involved.

      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

      Suzanne,

      I think (whether you are aware of it, or not) you have built some good relationships here on the WF. That's where you need to start when recruiting affiliates.
      That's the problem. I don't feel comfortable contacting and soliciting people for anything really. That's why the passive method seemed appealing to me. I enjoy talking to people on the forum and have a lot of respect for quite a few members, but contacting people and asking them to promote is not something I'd do.

      A lot of people here are primarily marketers. They eat and breathe marketing and it's quite easy and natural for them to always be networking and making deals. I've been a designer for over 12 years and don't consider myself primarily a marketer, so all that wheeling and dealing is not second nature to me at all like it is to many here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Whether you know it or not, Suzanne...

        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I enjoy talking to people on the forum and have a lot of respect for quite a few members, but contacting people and asking them to promote is not something I'd do.
        the reverse is also true...
        You can be a little "brash" sometimes (shows passion), but your input here is respected by many. I've never known you to be less than honest in your dealings, here - and that's what most people look for when establishing any kind of relationship.

        A lot of people here are primarily marketers. They eat and breathe marketing and it's quite easy and natural for them to always be networking and making deals. I've been a designer for over 12 years and don't consider myself primarily a marketer, so all that wheeling and dealing is not second nature to me at all like it is to many here.
        I've never thought of it as "wheeling and dealing". Casual discussions foster meaningful relationships and you might be surprised at how receptive your online friends might be to extend that relationship by including a business (affiliate) arrangement. Make the offer!
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

          I've never thought of it as "wheeling and dealing". Casual discussions foster meaningful relationships and you might be surprised at how receptive your online friends might be to extend that relationship by including a business (affiliate) arrangement. Make the offer!
          Appreciate the advice Sid. After this experience though, I'm really put off by the whole affiliate thing. I mean 5 out of 8 sales were fraud and more chargebacks in my Paypal account than I've ever had in all the years I've had it.

          So I'll most likely for future products go back to my DLGuard way of doing things and if I do get a few people who I know and trust that are interested in promoting, use something like this plugin
          WordPress Affiliate Platform Plugin - Simple Affiliate Program for WordPress Blog/Site | Tips and Tricks
          (Not an affiliate link ... lol)

          Having credit card theft/fraud used in conjunction with my Paypal account is a real eye opener.
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  • Profile picture of the author ScottGordon
    Wow. Lots of valuable information throughout this thread.
    It's opened my eyes to the seedy world of stolen credit cards and fraud.
    Too bad these people who have been so creative in stealing money can't use those skills to create useful products and be entrepreneurs.

    If someone can figure out a solution to all this and organize it and make sense of it all, it might make a valuable WSO (though I don't know if it would really sell -- people don't usually buy the stuff they really need, like this info, just what they want.)

    Anyway, thanks for all the posts here.
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  • Profile picture of the author dennis09
    Not sure if this was mentioned here already (too many walls of text to read), but this type of thing is pretty common in the world of underground carding (basically stealing ppls credit card info).

    They simply use the victims cc info to purchase affiliate products and get "clean" money by way of commission. And guess who get's left holding the ball...


    edit: Scott that's probably the best profile pic I've seen around these parts lol
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by dennis09 View Post

      Not sure if this was mentioned here already (too many walls of text to read), but this type of thing is pretty common in the world of underground carding (basically stealing ppls credit card info).

      They simply use the victims cc info to purchase affiliate products and get "clean" money by way of commission. And guess who get's left holding the ball...


      edit: Scott that's probably the best profile pic I've seen around these parts lol
      I've applied to numerous different affiliate programs over time and of the serious ones, a lot more information is required to join. I just joined one yesterday that was using the Wordpress Affiliate plugin that I mentioned, and my name, address, email and paypal email, telephone number and SS# were required. It is a friend of mine's affiliate program for his services and I'm accustomed to having to give that kind of information when I have applied to affiliate programs in the past.

      Not so with JVZoo and W+. Name and email is good enough, so the barrier is so low that literally anyone can join and hide using aliases. The names (aliases used on the JVZoo ) of the fraudulent affiliates wasn't even close to matching the names on their Paypal accounts, naturally.

      With W+, affiliates have to pay a $4.99 monthly fee and that may be just enough of a barrier to keep some of the scammers out, plus the fact that they are linked to their WF account and you can check them out and see what kind of posts they post and how long they've been a WF member, etc. before approving them, and believe me, I did check them out.

      I'm going to send the Paypal information and the fraud information to the Paypal risk department. It won't help me recover their commissions but if it gets their Paypal accounts shut down, I'll be happy. I just sent a payment of $1.00 to the person who had 4 fraudulent transactions and his Paypal account is still intact and able to receive money.
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      • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
        Thanks for sharing this, Suzanne.

        I've had several similar experiences a while ago and it made me stop approving any new affiliates on the network where it happened (and others too). My products were low-cost products, so my losses were smaller, except for PayPal's chargeback fees.

        But it sure freaked me out, and I seriously considered refunding all purchases with funny PP email addresses. And I should have, as it turned out - since chargebacks came in MONTHS after the sale.

        I had several conversations with PP about that, and they were actually very supportive and encouraging, and gave me some good advice (primarily to get a merchant account where I could eliminate buyers from certain countries - which might eliminate a good deal of the fraud, though not all of it). But all the troublesome emails had a "certain" pattern...

        Anyway, I've learned a lot of things from your thread, and I'll have to rethink my affiliate strategy. Will probably do a combination of things, but mostly, they'll focus on working closely with carefully selected affiliates...

        One tip (that I learned from several of the people I routinely buy from):

        Recruit your affiliates from amongst your proven buyers (possibly via the thank you page)! They know and like your product and if they have an opportunity, they'll gladly promote your product. True, not all of them will be terribly productive, but some of them may well be, and you have a much lower risk when it comes to affiliate fraud.


        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I'm not sure 7 days is enough to help protect you. The fraudulent purchases were made Aug 9 and 13th and the chargebacks were just filed this week in Paypal and two potential chargebacks had not been filed yet ... I refunded those to prevent chargebacks from those sales.
        I agree. Most of my above-mentioned chargebacks came VERY close to 60 days after the purchase.

        Originally Posted by MrMonetize View Post

        I'd rather not give these a backlink, but you've seen those stealth eBay and Paypal accounts you can create?

        - www. auctionstealth.com

        I reckon the scammers are using these to rip people off, I think they use those Virtual Credit cards you can get. PayPal need to be more responsible when allowing accounts to be opened, its like they're not even bothered there are guides out teaching you how to open them.
        OMG! That's horrible. And yes, I totally agree that PP should be much more careful. Then again, I suspect that some of those purchases may well have been made without a PP account - you know the kind where you can pay with your credit card directly!

        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        I've applied to numerous different affiliate programs over time and of the serious ones, a lot more information is required to join. I just joined one yesterday that was using the Wordpress Affiliate plugin that I mentioned, and my name, address, email and paypal email, telephone number and SS# were required. It is a friend of mine's affiliate program for his services and I'm accustomed to having to give that kind of information when I have applied to affiliate programs in the past.

        Not so with JVZoo and W+. Name and email is good enough, so the barrier is so low that literally anyone can join and hide using aliases. The names (aliases used on the JVZoo ) of the fraudulent affiliates wasn't even close to matching the names on their Paypal accounts, naturally.

        With W+, affiliates have to pay a $4.99 monthly fee and that may be just enough of a barrier to keep some of the scammers out, plus the fact that they are linked to their WF account and you can check them out and see what kind of posts they post and how long they've been a WF member, etc. before approving them, and believe me, I did check them out.

        I'm going to send the Paypal information and the fraud information to the Paypal risk department. It won't help me recover their commissions but if it gets their Paypal accounts shut down, I'll be happy. I just sent a payment of $1.00 to the person who had 4 fraudulent transactions and his Paypal account is still intact and able to receive money.
        Sending the $1.00 to test the PP account was a great idea...

        Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.

        Elisabeth
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  • Profile picture of the author bizzexchange
    wow, I need to read this thread over...quick lesson =scammers'- tactics evolving with Aff.marketing by the day!
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