I need help with a "moral" issue

by imguy
119 replies
Ok, I'm not totally new to Internet Marketing.

Recently I helped my sister put together a business that within a year grew substantially. She then wanted to launch a product that she purchased rights to. I helped her launch and got everything working. I was paid for my service and her business took off. Almost instantly from launch she started making over $1,000 daily and is still!

I know exactly the product and keywords to use to make that money since I helped with every aspect. She doesn't want me to use those keywords to do business and has asked that I don't.

Is it wrong for me to go behind her back and do it anyway? I guess that sounds greedy, but although I've been doing this for so long I have not had the time to put into getting my feet really off the ground.

I have over $50,000 in debt, am working an 8 hour a day job and my wife doesn't believe in this online business stuff. I just want to be done with debt already and could do it in two months if I did this.

Am I morally obligated to not bid on those keywords?

I need some clarity and help here. I'm so tempted to just do it and say "screw it, I need the money worse and am drowning here!"

I know how that sounds and am sorry if that offends anyone, but like this month I only have $600 in the bank and am going to overdraw again if I don't take action.

I am "allowed" to bid on any other keywords, but they are all untested and I don't have a budget to test with. It seems to me the world is big enough for two to bid on the same keywords...

Anyway, help?
#issue #moral
  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I am puzzled by this situation on so many levels that I don't even know
      where to begin.

      1. You charged your own sister to help her setup her business? Sheesh, I
      guess my family must be odd. We just do things for each other...no strings
      attached.

      2. My sister, if she knew I was not doing well, would do anything she could
      to help me out, including letting me in on her business. So I don't get how
      she could just say, "Oh well, not my problem." Again, maybe my family is
      strange.

      3. You'd go behind your sister's back and put the screws to her? Cheese
      and Crackers, have you thought of picking up the phone and say, "Um sis,
      I have a problem, can you help me?"

      I'm not passing judgment on your family but to me, something about this
      whole situation is just not right all the way around.
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      • Profile picture of the author zerivabella
        I'm with Steve here. Also if you have done so much work on her site, you understand how to do things, so why not try something else that will be just as successful.

        You could go ahead and do it for not only will you start making money but you will also start to save money as you won't have to buy birthday and Christmas gifts for the rest of your family when they dis-own you for upsetting your sister.
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      • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I am puzzled by this situation on so many levels that I don't even know
        where to begin.

        1. You charged your own sister to help her setup her business? Sheesh, I
        guess my family must be odd. We just do things for each other...no strings
        attached.

        2. My sister, if she knew I was not doing well, would do anything she could
        to help me out, including letting me in on her business. So I don't get how
        she could just say, "Oh well, not my problem." Again, maybe my family is
        strange.

        3. You'd go behind your sister's back and put the screws to her? Cheese
        and Crackers, have you thought of picking up the phone and say, "Um sis,
        I have a problem, can you help me?"

        I'm not passing judgment on your family but to me, something about this
        whole situation is just not right all the way around.
        Hey, next time, you dont have bring up and devalue his family when you try to get your points across.

        I dont see any good reason at all, why you have to bring up your families situation, and compare it to his.

        Would you say this same things to him, if he asked you in real life, face to face??

        You sound like a jerk here, just want to make you aware of that.

        Now,

        Depending on your situation, I believe you must try to work something out with your sister. Communication is key in todays society. And it's seldom used enough. Even in families.

        Instead of going behind her back, sit down with your sister and explain your situation. Only you know well enough, what's right for you.

        And only you know how your family is structured and the bonds.

        I think, you could work something out in other fields, if you could help here make $1k a day, you could do own research and find another market.
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  • Profile picture of the author imguy
    Maybe that's the question, is it screwing her over? Part of me is a little offended by it all, I've put just as much work into launching the product, if not more, yet I'm not a part of the rewards...and am told to stay away from joining in the market at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by imguy View Post

      Maybe that's the question, is it screwing her over? Part of me is a little offended by it all, I've put just as much work into launching the product, if not more, yet I'm not a part of the rewards...and am told to stay away from joining in the market at all.
      If she were losing $1,000 a day on this project, would you feel equally offended about not sharing in her losses?
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Why not join forces with your sister?

    Think win-win.

    ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Jon Alexander
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Why not join forces with your sister?

      Think win-win.

      ~Michael
      I'd go for this solution too. If you helped her do it in the first place, she should welcome the opportunity for more success.
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    • Profile picture of the author loremasterwf
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Why not join forces with your sister?

      Think win-win.

      ~Michael
      This guy is right.

      Create, dont compete.

      You have already gained here. You have proven you can launch a system/business that earns $30k a month.

      Instead of competing for her keywords, why not get her to give you a testimonial and launch a service to teach others how to do this?
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  • Profile picture of the author imguy
    I like that, but the problem is I am forbidden from bidding on any keywords that she is...she makes more if I don't join forces.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    maybe think about what your sister does/has as opposed to you. She has the ideas and the motivation....and all you do is wanting to rip her off and steal her idea. Even if you do it i don't think you will be successful, you just don't have the right attitude. Its actually sad.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    imguy -- as Michael said, think win-win and join forces with your sister.

    If she doesn't want to, then consider this...

    In your post you seemed to be taking a lot of credit for your sister's success. That means that you already KNOW how to set up and run a successful business (you just haven't done it for yourself, yet). You don't need to go behind your sister's back to make money (and why do that anyway? Is money more important than your sister?).

    That's scarcity thinking if the ONLY way you can think of to make money is to go behind her back.

    You already know how to make money. You know how to set up a successful site, find good keywords, etc. Now just go find your own profitable niche and do it for yourself.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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    • Profile picture of the author Vince Courtney
      I agree with Becky

      You are already 90% of the way to making money online from what you say you did for your sister.

      Step out on your own and give it a shot using the same skills but don't go against family. I think you would only have more misery coming your way.

      IMHO anyway
      Vince
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      • Profile picture of the author 3stars and a sun
        The moral issue here depends on your set of moral values. What do you think is right? Up to what level will you be taking it? Will you allow the money and debt situation you are into create a friction between you and your sister?

        You have already took your share of the business when you received the money she paid you for your service.

        If you were able to make your sister earn 365K in a year, why can't you do it for yourself? Your sister's situation is a living testimony so why not tell the story to your wife so you could make her believe in online business thingy?
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    no, i do NOT think he knows. Otherwise he would come up with something on his own and not look jealously at his sister. If she found a good niche, it should be possible to duplicate this, find another keyword.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    One other thought: I FORBID everyone from bidding on any and all of my keywords, too!

    Yeah, something's fishy on all sides of this issue, IMHO.

    ~Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Like Steven said, this is an odd family situation - but it also seems business is business. If you took this job with the CONDITION of not competing then I think you are SOL if you don't compete, and a demonic sibling if you do compete the way you are suggesting.

      The first thing I thought of was already mentioned here - Partnership. Convince your sister that her good fortune is NOT going to last without some kind of competition, possibly BIG competition which can turn her business around overnight.

      I would put together a business plan where you would continue to help her business grow, by perhaps adding complimentary sites, products, and even similar websites - further securing total domination in what is obviously a profitable niche.

      Convince her (not trickery) that she must grow this business to maintain what she has, and tell her you will do all the necessary work but will start taking a cut of new business only. Even if you only get to $100-$200/day for yourself by doing this, you are WAY ahead financially and on a personal level as well. You make her MORE without her having to do anything, and you get in on a profitable niche.

      This is a moral dilemma, but personal greed will always be a part of human nature. You are no different than any of us here or who have commented in this thread. My guess is that there would be many IMs on this website who would be salivating for a piece of their sibling's pie if it was that good. That doesn't mean however, the pie is there for the taking when family is involved, but real family might work to find a way to share it.
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    • Profile picture of the author AnneE
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      One other thought: I FORBID everyone from bidding on any and all of my keywords, too!

      Yeah, something's fishy on all sides of this issue, IMHO.

      ~Michael
      Okay, Michael, you tell us which keywords are making REALLY BIG money and we PROMISE we WON'T bid on THOSE keywords -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

      I also agree that we can't possibly know all of the history involved that would create such a situation... where someone feels they can't ask a sibling who is making $1000 a day whether they can somehow get involved with that business because they're really in a bind.

      I think the only advice I'd give is to try having an honest conversation with your sister.
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  • Profile picture of the author imguy
    All great suggestions...although some very judgmental I understand why...

    Yes, my thinking is scarcity as of late...when you overdraw on your account month after month and put in 50 to 60 hours a week at your job, you tend to get a little frustrated with things.

    Especially when you have kids involved who you don't want to go without.
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  • Profile picture of the author MemberWing
    I agree with win-win / join forces idea.
    She knows you can deliver - you know you're skilful person and you know she is a good businesswoman.
    Although I do realize that there might be other factors that make this arrangement not possible at this time.

    In these moments of confusion i usually refer to method described in Zero Limits book by Joe Vitale.

    Gleb
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    • Profile picture of the author jmidas
      imguy - if you put together such a great campaign, why not duplicate the process with a different product/keyword set. If you really came up with something that is generating 1000/day, you must have done something right and have the skills to do it again. Now take that talent and apply it to another product/keyword set. Your sis does not own the internet. Remember, the value is the skills you have, so just move on to the next product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    I'm with Steven on this one.

    Feels like there is more to the story here. Not only the things that Steven touched on but the idea that you would come in here and ask if you can do this to her based on her doing it to you by leaving you out of her loop.

    The fact that you are asking about this in the way that you are putting it shows that you know it's wrong in your way of thinking. So you are basically hoping we will tell you that it's ok to go against what you already believe is wrong.

    So would that really make you feel better about what you're thinking about doing?

    Asking a bunch of strangers to give you permission to go against your own sense of morality?

    I think you have deeper problems. I'm not trying to offend or belittle you in any way but think about what you are doing.

    Don't you think you would be better off figuring out why you feel the need to operate the way that you do and maybe you can solve more than just financial issues.

    Money is not the measure of wealth. Integrity is earned during times like these and if you work on that you will ultimately become very wealthy.

    Matt
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  • Profile picture of the author John Westbrook
    Yes, what Gleb said!!! This is the wisest of all the responses.

    By the way, if you don't know the method he's referring to:

    "I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you"

    This is said to the Divine, not your sister. It's allowing the "problems" you are facing to be taken care of by the Divine and thanking the Divine for the solution.

    I don't pass judgement on you IMGuy. I've been where you are, it's stressful. And to those of you who are passing judgement, which of you are without fault? Who of you has NEVER been in a hard situation and not thought through what you are doing, about to do, and acted out of pure desperation? If any of you are blameless in your lives, go ahead and pass judgement.

    This guy is caught in the classic grip of what many Americans face...debt.

    Buddy, I'm sorry you are suffering...my heart goes out to you and I understand. But the fact that you came here asking for help, before you did something you'd regret, speaks to your character. You haven't screwed your sister over, you are not that person.

    Don't become that person. Even if you feel justified or that she has screwed you over somehow, that never is a good enough reason for you to stoop that low.

    Here's an idea.

    Approach your sister and say,

    "sis, I'd like to be more involved in this, I see your success and want a piece of the action. I don't have a budget for marketing but will do the work. Can you fund the marketing if I do the work and I'll affiliate on the links?"

    That's the win-win.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheRichLife
      The mere fact that you made this thread indicates that you already know it's morally wrong. So, are you just here hoping somebody will convince you it's not? That way you can go ahead and do it, but still feel good about yourself?

      I'm sorry if that's harsh, but I don't understand why
      A) You wouldn't already know the answer.
      B) You would look for morality advice on an IM forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Evita
        Originally Posted by TheRichLife View Post


        SNIP
        B) You would look for morality advice on an IM forum.
        Wow. Interesting...

        That sounds to me that you think that there is not much morality to be found w/in the IM business?


        I'd advice you to hang out here for some time, and you'll find some of the most honest, helpful, decent folks loaded with integrity that really care to help, and to applaud others success.


        Evita
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        • Profile picture of the author TheRichLife
          Originally Posted by Evita View Post

          Wow. Interesting...

          That sounds to me that you think that there is not much morality to be found w/in the IM business?


          I'd advice you to hang out here for some time, and you'll find some of the most honest, helpful, decent folks loaded with integrity that really care to help, and to applaud others success.


          Evita
          You're correct. I don't think there is much morality to be found in the IM business.

          You're also correct that I have found some honest, helpful, and decent folks on this site.

          However in general, I still believe that looking here for morality advice is like looking for dieting advice on a pastry chef site....You might find some, but you probably should get a second opinion.
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      • Profile picture of the author SamstaUK
        Originally Posted by TheRichLife View Post

        I'm sorry if that's harsh, but I don't understand why
        A) You wouldn't already know the answer.
        B) You would look for morality advice on an IM forum.
        That made me LAUGH!
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  • Profile picture of the author billyboy
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    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
      In life, sometimes knowing what's right or wrong isn't always so clear. So, I can understand why your seeking advice on this.

      Personally, I would suggest that you contact your sister--explain your situation to her.

      Find out if the possibility of the two of you joining forces is an option. If not, just move on. Nothing is more important than your relationship with your sister.

      Money isn't real--it's just paper and metal that humans give value too. Your relationship with your sister is real and invaluable.

      I know it's important to be in good standings financially, but, it's much more important to be in better standings with your sister.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by marcanthony View Post

        In life, sometimes knowing what's right or wrong isn't always so clear. So, I can understand why your seeking advice on this.

        Personally, I would suggest that you contact your sister--explain your situation to her.

        Find out if the possibility of the two of you joining forces is an option. If not, just move on. Nothing is more important than your relationship with your sister.

        Money isn't real--it's just paper and metal that humans give value too. Your relationship with your sister is real and invaluable.

        I know it's important to be in good standings financially, but, it's much more important to be in better standings with your sister.
        Let's inject some cold hard reality to this situation because some of you
        people are talking like this is all hypothetical BS.

        If this guy goes to his sister and says, "Sis, I need your help..." and goes
        into the whole situation and she comes out of the other end saying "Sucks
        to be you" do you REALLY think there is going to be any relationship left
        between the two of them?

        If my flesh and blood did that to me, it would be the last frickin time
        they ever heard from me again. I mean for crying out loud, we're talking
        about family here.

        As for what I'd do after that, it's none of anybody's business. But I'll
        tell you one thing, if my own flesh and blood can see me thrown out into
        the street without so much as lifting a finger to help me (especially when
        they're in a position to do it) I'd be pretty tempted to do whatever I could
        to save my ass.

        That's why I said up top, this whole situation is totally FUBAR. I can
        understand having this problem with a total stranger who paid you for
        your services. Then you're literally going against a contract.

        But you're own family?

        No wonder this world is so F'd up.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Steven - I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but FUBAR covers it. When I see a "moral problem" like this one I always wonder what the other side of the story is. It's usually an attempt at rationalization rather than moral confusion.

          His debt - his wife - his job - etc are not his sister's responsibility. His choice to work for pay on his sister's project may have been his own requirement or her attempt to help him out. We don't know. He could have spent the time on his own project - but there would have risk and no guarantee of reward.

          Wouldn't matter if it were a friend, someone who paid him for outsourced work, or another family member. He would resent their success and feel he had a right to part of it no matter what the arrangement was.

          Truth is - if you will screw over your family for money....you'll do it to anyone.

          kay
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        • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          If this guy goes to his sister and says, "Sis, I need your help..." and goes
          into the whole situation and she comes out of the other end saying "Sucks
          to be you" do you REALLY think there is going to be any relationship left
          between the two of them?
          I don't know what kind of relationship they have. Sometimes, the "sucks to be you" approach is necessary. If that were to happen--who knows--he might even thank her for taking that approach later.

          But, I don't know if this situation calls for that approach or not.

          If my flesh and blood did that to me, it would be the last frickin time
          they ever heard from me again. I mean for crying out loud, we're talking
          about family here.
          Understood. However, many people differ here. In my case--if my brother denied me his help--I can't say that I wouldn't speak to him again. I mean... I do love the guy.

          Besides, as much of a *good deed* it would be, I realize that there is no obligation or duty on my brother's part to help me out financially. And, I wouldn't have such a high expectation of him to do so--just because he's my flesh and blood.

          Steven,

          As far as being tempted to save ones own ass--I see your point. When you are actually faced with a situation like this--who knows what any of us would really do.

          But, there are many things that we can do to save our own asses. And, in this case, relying on his sister to save him, is not the only option.
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        • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          If my flesh and blood did that to me, it would be the last frickin time
          they ever heard from me again. I mean for crying out loud, we're talking
          about family here.
          This isn't about your family Steven.

          Do you ever try to see beyond your own ocupation.

          And I see some people are giving kudos to this post. It's just negative, nonsense outburst from Stevens keyboard.


          The poster didn't help that much and are jelous about his sisters success.

          Or his sister isnt giving him enough credit for his work, and he feels like he is getting run over.

          There's a mid-way somewere that some things werent or arent clearly communicated in their family.

          It's really. this simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    At the end of the day it comes down to this. You must live with your actions.

    You are looking at a future as an online marketer. If you take this action and others know about it, will it increase your success online?

    You are obviously intelligent enough to do what you did for her for yourself with a different slant and then you would own your own income outright.

    If your "sister" does not know about your situation you might be able to arrange a temporary assist and relieve some pressure, but being honest with her.

    The long range goals seem important here. If you do something to harm your marketing reputation you may be shooting yourself in the foot unwittingly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
    I don't find this odd at all.

    Blood is thicker than water, until the subject of "money" comes up.

    Just look at the passing of a parent, and all the siblings arguing and fighting over the possessions and estate.

    This is very common, and I would not pass judgment, unless you're 100% positive that you have NEVER EVER crossed the line yourself. But then again, everyone would be lying if they said that.

    I would simply approach your sister, and ask her for help to Duplicate the process on your own (without taking money out of her own pocket), and ask her if she can teach you.

    When you both get older (usually at death bed), you'll look back and say, "why didn't we share more and help each other," but seldom does anyone have that kind of generosity. The only time generosity is given, is when there is a perceived benefit back to the giver. Unless you've reached the place of total altruism....and only a handful of people in history have achieved that.

    Oh, I need help. Anyone want to paypal me $100?

    See what I mean....
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  • Profile picture of the author midwestmedia
    If your sister is not aware of your situation, I would sit down and have a heart to heart with her and let her know of it. If my sister was having major problems like that and I was making $1000 a day, you can bet that I would volunteer to help in any way I can. Perhaps the crux of the problem is that she doesn't know how bad off things are right now.

    Give her a chance to offer help. If help isn't offered, be professional and come up with a proposal that allows you to work together in some capacity. Maybe she could make a financial investment in a project that is 100% yours.

    My sisters and I are very close, so this is an odd situation for me to comment on. But not all siblings are best friends, so the best thing might be to approach her as a colleague instead and come up with something that is a "win-win" as many people have mentioned.

    Hope this helps...but, it does seem as though you have some expertise. I would try a different niche, with a similar technique and see what you can do for yourself in the meantime!
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    Steve, Your a great guy but it seems like your a bit out of touch. I mean this completely respectfully (especially considering our communication history) but you are priviledged where it comes to family.

    You have one. I also respect you for that fact.

    Many people, self included, don't. No Christmas with extended family, none of that stuff.

    The point here to me anyway is that it really isn't an issue about family anyway. It's about survival and a correct moral compass.

    If you make decisions that build your business and self respect you are building your future correctly and if you haunt yourself with immoral decisions you regret, well... you are also building your future.

    I say make your choice based on a success strategy and not on fears you have.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
      I totally agree with this. And even the best families fight, otherwise you wouldn't be a family.

      I like your advice: Use a moral compass.

      I'd add, don't let someone else's moral compasses dictate your own compass, because usually, they can be off course and just as greedy as the rest of us. Anyone that takes a holier-than-thou approach I usually would need to balance their ideas with the opposite side of their nature.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        I'm sorry to sound harsh but is this story actually making sense to any of you?

        If he was trusted enough by his sister to do all that he claims he did, wouldn't she have some idea of his financial situation?

        If he has this knowledge, why would he not have used it himself already?

        As to his wife not believing in this IM thing, um, hello? Wouldn't his sister's supposed success lend a good deal of credibility to the idea?

        Tina G

        More reasons why this whole story, in my opinion, is so unbelievable.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post

      Steve, Your a great guy but it seems like your a bit out of touch. I mean this completely respectfully (especially considering our communication history) but you are priviledged where it comes to family.

      You have one. I also respect you for that fact.

      Many people, self included, don't. No Christmas with extended family, none of that stuff.

      The point here to me anyway is that it really isn't an issue about family anyway. It's about survival and a correct moral compass.

      If you make decisions that build your business and self respect you are building your future correctly and if you haunt yourself with immoral decisions you regret, well... you are also building your future.

      I say make your choice based on a success strategy and not on fears you have.

      Chris, I understand that some people have no families. But this guy does
      have a family. He's got a sister making 365K a year.

      She can't help the poor guy out?

      My family would lay down their lives for each other...no questions asked.

      Unless of course you're saying some people have families that just don't
      give a crap.

      In that case, yes, you're right...and that's where the problem is.

      If this makes me out of touch, I'd rather be out of touch than be stuck in
      a situation where I know that my own flesh and blood won't lift a finger
      to help me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        If this makes me out of touch, I'd rather be out of touch than be stuck ina situation where I know that my own flesh and blood won't lift a finger to help me.
        You really are out of touch Steven. Sometimes you come across as "Me against the world" or "to hell with it all"...

        I'm not gonna bother to quote anything new I see from you in this thread. I know it's the same old story, anyways.
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  • Profile picture of the author new guy
    If you were paid for your services, then you reaped the benefit of this project before she did. You could have entered into it upfront based on a revenue sharing model but you did not. i don't even care if she is your sister or not, if you decide upfront to do a set job for a set price then when it is over and you are paid, you are done with it. You can't go back after whining for more money. If you were so smart and the mastermind behind all of this success, then go out and duplicate it with a different product instead of moaning about your hard times.
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  • Profile picture of the author Roger Mayne
    I agree with Marty and was going to suggest something similar. For her to be successful, she needed your help. Fine, you got paid for it, which is obviously something you both agreed to at the time.

    Perhaps you were shortsighted and didn't think she was going to make it, otherwise you could have negotiated a piece of the pie right at the outset and would be benefitting from the project now. Anyway, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Back to the here and now.

    You should leverage each others strengths so that you collaborate to make each other more money. You have to show her that you can increase her income by a reaonsable amount, and organise a share of the profits. It is truly win-win.

    If not, like others have suggested, find a new niche and repeat the process you took to get your sister up and running. If you need HER skill set to get YOU going, go ahead and ask for her help, even if you have to revenue share with her.

    1% of something is a whole lot better than 100% of nothing (sorry, cliche I know). Work together, not against each other. Reap the rewards together, share your success and build on your sibling relationship. Surely there can be nothing more rewarding than that?
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    As much as I can't stand my sister's irresponsibility (a whole other discussion), if she helped my increase my income by $365,000 a year and I knew she had $50K in debt, I would pay off the debt and share in the ongoing revenue with her.

    The story smells like fish. Old fish. Very old, decomposing fish.
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    • Profile picture of the author reynald2790
      Hi I think you should not screw your sister. You must be thankful that your idea was used in her business to work on. You might be able to make your new keywords to market also your own product. There is no mistakes in trying your luck in internet marketing business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Keith Choy
    hi imguy,

    A quick suggestion that you might want to consider. Got this idea from Mark Joyner in his Integration Marketing book. But this will only work if you can make it win-win with your sister.

    An approach you can take is:

    1. Let your sister continue to bid on the keywords. Heck, the 2 of you may even want to share out the cost (and hence the risk). If you can be an affiliate for her products, then it is in her interest that you bid for the same keywords (ie. she get the sales too).

    2. Along the path of her sales process, put in "ads" for either your products (it must be related to her niche) or an affiliate product. Let your siser earn a cut from it as well.

    3. I assume there is an name-squeeze page along the sale path. So maybe setup an agreement with your sister to do a solo-mail where she can earn a cut too.

    In any case, the key is to work this out win-win for both of you. In this way, there is nothing immoral. It would become more like a JV (ie. business-like).

    Hope this helps. I admit this is brief but I guess you would be able to expand from there with your experience.

    - Keith Choy
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  • You commented that you don't have the budget to test other keywords -- and I think this is at the heart of why you don't just go launch another business, as people are suggesting. It sounds like you don't have the time or the money to get it underway, so you want to take a piece of the pie you know is already baked.

    Yes, that's how business works. But if you took money to help someone -- anyone -- start a business, and then used the information you gained in that process to compete with them, that's a major ethical and potentially legal issue.

    Not only that, but your sister DID have the money to invest up front in her business, so it's not as if you could have done it without her, either.
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  • Profile picture of the author lburrell
    I'm with the new guy.

    If you KNEW this thing COULD be an eventual success, you should have entered into a binding contract that expressed how profits should be split. Not doing that was completely your fault. You provided a service (knowing your family situation is "a little" different than many others) and didn't cover yourself.

    If your sister took on all the risk for this project and spent all the money while you just offered your services, you shouldn't be entitled to any of the profits. You should be given a payment for your services and that's that. You are just an employee at that point.

    Now this goes both ways too.

    If you wanted to branch out on your own against your sister's wishes (if you can look in the mirror everyday and live with yourself), it is in your every right to do so, unless you expressly said you wouldn't. (Verbal contracts are still legal contracts and can be held up in court)

    Remember: Calculated RISK = REWARD

    In my situation with my start-up company, my partner and I sat down BEFORE ANY MONEY WAS SPENT OR MADE and agreed verbally to how things would be split, including the risk and the possible reward. Again, we hadn't made a dime yet or spent a dime yet, but I wanted to take every step to ensure our friendship and our future business wasn't affected by money miscommunication issues. We agreed to have contracts written up to put in writing what we have already verbalized.

    Moral of the story: Money will f*ck everything up.

    Want to know how to save your marriage? Ask about money before you even get into one

    #1 reason marriages end up in divorce?? You guessed it...money discrepancies


    Cover all your bases before you get into anything dealing with or could possibly deal with any money being spent or saved or made or given

    You'll save yourself a lot of heartache and hassle
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    You got some good alternatives to betraying your sister:

    1) Join forces
    2) Have a heart to heart talk with her about your debt-how did you get in so much debt in the first place
    3) Apply what you know in IM in a different niche than your sisters
    4) Ask her for a loan to help out if she's making $1K everyday
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  • Profile picture of the author Barbara Wilson
    Like others - I'm amazed that you'd come into an IM forum, and your 4th post is seeking permission for something like this.

    I feel for your position - a family to provide for and what feels like crushing debt with no forseeable way out. But several things popped into my head as I read your post -

    You'd even consider an action like this against your own sister?! Stranger's opinions on it would make you feel justified?

    You charged your sister? Well, you have debt and maybe she insisted. So OK. But that makes her a client. Of course, I guess if you can consider something like this against your sister, you wouldn't hesitate to steal from a client.

    You know, really - instead of seeking approval to stab your sister in the back you should be finding a way to develop your own niche. Or, if she's given you access to the product - come up with another way to market it. There's more than one way to market any product.

    It sounds like your having a hard time right now - but that's no excuse for what you're proposing. I wouldn't think of treating a stranger like this - and you're looking for ways to justify doing it to one of your own family - you own sister.

    Really sad.
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Whenever I read threads asking for "moral" or "ethical" advice, I just wonder who these people are trying to kid.

      If you believe a course of action is unethical or immoral, why would the opinions of a group of strangers alter that?

      The only conceivable reason for such a question is that the decision has already been made and the person asking is simply looking for justification and support for his intended action.

      Ask for business advice, but please leave out the morals.



      Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Barbara Wilson View Post


      It sounds like your having a hard time right now - but that's no excuse for what you're proposing. I wouldn't think of treating a stranger like this - and you're looking for ways to justify doing it to one of your own family - you own sister.

      Really sad.
      Doesn't it work both ways? Isn't family supposed to help each other?

      Maybe I was just born in the wrong frickin century but I can't believe some
      of the heartlessness that I read these days.

      If it was my sister, I'd be digging into my pockets this second to help her
      out of her jam. I'd setup her business run it for her and do anything I could
      to see that she doesn't have to worry about feeding my kids.

      And don't even get me started on what I'd do if my poor daughter needed
      my help. Hell, I'd probably give her my whole business.

      Amazing...just amazing.

      This is why this world is so screwed up. If families won't help each other
      what prayer do strangers have?

      Know what? I gotta just leave this whole thread before I get sick to my
      stomach.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    I just don't get this story- someone can create a campaign for someone else that makes $1000/day, but can't make another one?

    The person who now has the profitable campaign can't help the one who created it who is in financial trouble?

    Unless there is some written agreement about not using the same keywords, I don't see the issue. I guarantee somebody else is using the keywords, so it might as well be you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
    If she was your exwife who took you for everything you're worth...maybe...but not your sister....lol. What a crazy thread...and unbelievable story.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Westbrook
    What amazed me more than anything in this thread is the speed at which some of the IMers in here were willing to pass judgment and throw stones...that is simply crazy. And it's exactly why people are not usually asking for moral guidance, no matter where they ask...who cares!

    If someone asks for input because they are confused, shouldn't those of us who have clarity of mind to see a moral path be willing to help out without passing judgment in the process?

    I'm a little sad and ashamed in this group today.

    Just sayin.

    And Steven, I'm with you. If ANYONE in my family was struggling with debt, I'd help them in a heartbeat. And I'm not from any type of "privileged" situation. So I truly hope this guy's sister is willing to help out. And IMGuy, take heart my friend. The fact that you came onto a forum and asked that question is not appalling. It was a good move morally. It means you knew it was wrong and I congratulate you for that!
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    Figure out how you can do something that will complement her business; and then approach her with a JV proposal.

    Will
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    • Profile picture of the author WritingMadwoman
      Originally Posted by Will Edwards View Post

      Figure out how you can do something that will complement her business; and then approach her with a JV proposal.

      Will
      Will, I was just going to suggest that too! Find a way to offer a complimentary product to what she's already offering and ask her to broadcast a promotion to her list periodically. Or set it up as a OTO, whatever.

      I don't think you have to take a piece of your sister's pie - just create a bigger pie that you can both benefit from!

      Steven, I'm sending you some pepto, go lie down for awhile. LOL

      Wendy
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    • Profile picture of the author cshilling22
      PM me and give me the steps I need to take to to make this guaranteed $1,000 per day. I will cut you in at 50% Problem solved.
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    • Profile picture of the author MyShopPass
      I would think you might have "legal" issues here if you charged her to do what you did, she might be protected by "intillectual property rights - She "PAID" and TRUSTED you to do exactly what you did...now you want to wing it off her expence?

      Think twice - moral or not.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheAngelGuy
        This is neither a deep nor moral issue.

        How do you know that you're going to be stealing from her $1000 per day? From what I understand, there's got to be a pretty serious market for that amount to be made.

        What if you make money without tapping into that?

        The erroneous mindset seems to be that there's $1000 per day for me or my sister so I'm going to let her have it. How do you know that you both can't do that amount?

        And if you're concerned with a family squabble, just keep it anonymous. Use a pen name. Make it female even.

        Sorry to not get into the moral debate, but it's not solution-based thinking. You need to decide to do it or not. If it's not going to tap into her business, then do it. If you're concerned about her finding out, do it as someone else.

        There's no problem or issue here.

        Just a decision to make that's got both interestes in mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author livebig!
    The question is.... what do you think?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    She asked you not to bid on them. So you don't. Simple. Problem solved. Like someone mentioned your family relationships are more important than material wealth.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Originally Posted by Traffic-Bug View Post

    I dont think anything is unethical in what you want to do. Even if you are not going to target the same keywords, someone else may, of their own accord. Its not wrong to compete. Thats the basis of economy and that is fair enough as long as you dont steal or infringe upon others rights
    If that's not unethical, what else is...

    I do understand his frustration tho...but its still unethical to DO..especially since there are many more civil ways to somehow arrange something with his sister - instead of going behind her back, lying to her, breaking his word/promise...and profit at the cost of his sister's profit by "stealing" this from her. this is NOT unethical? Cheezuuss...
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  • Profile picture of the author esr
    Originally Posted by imguy View Post

    Ok, I'm not totally new to Internet Marketing.

    Recently I helped my sister put together a business that within a year grew substantially. She then wanted to launch a product that she purchased rights to. I helped her launch and got everything working. I was paid for my service and her business took off. Almost instantly from launch she started making over $1,000 daily and is still!

    I know exactly the product and keywords to use to make that money since I helped with every aspect. She doesn't want me to use those keywords to do business and has asked that I don't.

    Is it wrong for me to go behind her back and do it anyway? I guess that sounds greedy, but although I've been doing this for so long I have not had the time to put into getting my feet really off the ground.

    I have over $50,000 in debt, am working an 8 hour a day job and my wife doesn't believe in this online business stuff. I just want to be done with debt already and could do it in two months if I did this.

    Am I morally obligated to not bid on those keywords?

    I need some clarity and help here. I'm so tempted to just do it and say "screw it, I need the money worse and am drowning here!"

    I know how that sounds and am sorry if that offends anyone, but like this month I only have $600 in the bank and am going to overdraw again if I don't take action.

    I am "allowed" to bid on any other keywords, but they are all untested and I don't have a budget to test with. It seems to me the world is big enough for two to bid on the same keywords...

    Anyway, help?


    No offense but I think your sister is being incredibly selfish. Does she think that she's the only one on the internet using her keywords?

    Since you asked for opinions, I would go to my sister, tell her that her request is wrong, and tell her that you're going to use any means to make money to support your family.... just as she did when she enlisted YOUR help in building a successful business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jakehyten
    Here is what you need to do imguy. Send me a list of all the keywords she is using and the product information. Also send me as much info about her business as possible. Then I will go launch all the campaigns and I'll kick you back 5%. That way you aren't screwing her over. It's a win win for 3 people then. Me, you and your sister gets some competition which will eventually make her a stronger marketer in the long run. It's your obligation to help her become better each day.
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    • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
      Originally Posted by Jakehyten View Post

      Here is what you need to do imguy. Send me a list of all the keywords she is using and the product information. Also send me as much info about her business as possible. Then I will go launch all the campaigns and I'll kick you back 5%. That way you aren't screwing her over. It's a win win for 3 people then. Me, you and your sister gets some competition which will eventually make her a stronger marketer in the long run. It's your obligation to help her become better each day.
      i want in too. I write the "Fantastic Keyword"-WSO - you all get 0.01% of the profits
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  • Profile picture of the author Taylor French
    I feel sorely under-equipped to answer this question, because my entire family would turn their back on each other in a heartbeat. I rarely even speak to anyone in my family, because they just don't care anyway.

    But if I were you, I would ask my sister for help. If she refused, then I would compete against her. Family who won't help each other is not worth being "moral" over, in my opinion. But my view could be severely tainted due to my own experiences, so take that into consideration.

    The only exception would be if she asked you not to compete BEFORE you took the job. If so, then I wouldn't compete on moral grounds. But if she asked you after you took the job, and you ask for help and she refuses, I would just go ahead.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Originally Posted by Taylor French View Post

      But if I were you, I would ask my sister for help. If she refused, then I would compete against her. Family who won't help each other is not worth being "moral" over, in my opinion. But my view could be severely tainted due to my own experiences, so take that into consideration.
      There's no excuse for turning your back on your family. Even if you all hate each other you should be the bigger person and stand true to your principles.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ZigZag View Post

        There's no excuse for turning your back on your family. Even if you all hate each other you should be the bigger person and stand true to your principles.
        Does anybody else see the classic irony in this?

        The guy is turning his back on his sister because he's thinking of "screwing
        her over" while the sister is doing nothing wrong by turning her back on him
        and letting him twist in the wind.

        If this weren't so sad I'd be dying from laughter right now.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Does anybody else see the classic irony in this?

          The guy is turning his back on his sister because he's thinking of "screwing
          her over" while the sister is doing nothing wrong by turning her back on him
          and letting him twist in the wind.

          If this weren't so sad I'd be dying from laughter right now.
          Well that's not really important to me Steven. What's important to me is doing what I think it right. And if a family member did the same to me I would do absolutely nothing about it. I'd let it go. I wouldn't be all dramatic about it.

          Sometimes family relationships are tough. But that doesn't excuse people from not doing what's important to them.
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          • Profile picture of the author DeadGuy
            I guess I have to ask a question here. If you had performed this same service for someone other than your sister, would you be thinking along the same lines? No matter how you cut it, competing against your sister, or anybody else who has paid you for your services, is totally unethical.

            As many others have said here, there's probably a whole lot more to this story than we're reading and it's really hard to imagine a family member turning it's back on another in need. Especially since she's discovered new found wealth.
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            You are making this work at home stuff way harder than it is. Ready for some sanity? Clear your head and start over.

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            • Profile picture of the author sevenish
              Originally Posted by DeadGuy View Post

              I guess I have to ask a question here. If you had performed this same service for someone other than your sister, would you be thinking along the same lines?
              I would. Why not? unless there is signed paperwork in agreement to not do it, of course.
              No matter how you cut it, competing against your sister, or anybody else who has paid you for your services, is totally unethical.
              How? If there's a signed agreement to that effect, then yes. But no agreement? No deal and all's fair.
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        • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Does anybody else see the classic irony in this?

          The guy is turning his back on his sister because he's thinking of "screwing
          her over" while the sister is doing nothing wrong by turning her back on him
          and letting him twist in the wind.

          If this weren't so sad I'd be dying from laughter right now.
          She isn't doing anything wrong. She doesn't owe him anything. She didn't put him $50,000 in debt, and it's not her responsibility to get him out of it.

          Would it be a nice thing to do? Sure.....but we don't know the background. Maybe she knows if she pays off his debt, he'll be $50,000 in debt again 2 years from now. Perhaps she has tried over and over again to help him, only to have it bite her in the ass. Or maybe she has her own debt to deal with, and her own family to raise. Or maybe.....she's greedy. Even if she is, her greed isn't taking anything from her brother....what he wants to do is taking something away from his sister. That's the difference.
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          • Profile picture of the author sam12six
            Originally Posted by blackhatcat View Post

            She isn't doing anything wrong. She doesn't owe him anything. She didn't put him $50,000 in debt, and it's not her responsibility to get him out of it.

            Would it be a nice thing to do? Sure.....but we don't know the background. Maybe she knows if she pays off his debt, he'll be $50,000 in debt again 2 years from now. Perhaps she has tried over and over again to help him, only to have it bite her in the ass. Or maybe she has her own debt to deal with, and her own family to raise. Or maybe.....she's greedy. Even if she is, her greed isn't taking anything from her brother....what he wants to do is taking something away from his sister. That's the difference.
            I agree with this post completely (based on what the OP has told us).

            From what you've said you helped did all the work and she spent all the money (Including paying you for your work). Now, you haven't told us whether you suggested this arrangement to her to earn some quick money or whether she suggested this arrangement to you to give you some quick money. Either way, you got some money out of it.

            Now, if you're confident you can do it again, simply approach her to do the same thing with different terms. This time she spends the money (No up front for you) and you split the profits. If she's the greedy bitch a lot of people here seem to think she is, then she'll jump at the chance to make even more money.

            If you're not confident that you can do it again, the get on your knees and beg her for a bigger piece of the pie (or screw her over and take her profits for yourself - whichever you can live with). Alternately, you could try to make an identical arrangement to the first one and get another $1000 check then come back here if she starts making good bank from it and ask if you should screw her over this time.

            You helped her start a business and it's making a profit. All she's asking is for you to not use your insider knowledge you gained doing a job that she paid you for to steal that profit. I don't really see that being an unreasonable request on her part.
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            • Profile picture of the author FG
              Well there's your problem:

              Your sister knows the real success secret to PPC and she is using it.

              1) focus on a business model and take massive action with a proven plan

              2) find a product that is in demand and buy the rights to it or have it created

              3) have enough money on hand to use PPC for a real business (fastest way to make money)

              4) learn the paint by number mechanics of PPC and use them (thank you brother)

              Sister needed help from brother on doing number 4.
              Brother needs help from sister on doing number 1 and number 2 and number 3.

              Sister is doing the right thing and paying her own way.
              Brother must also do the right thing.

              You have a smart sister. Don't mess it up.


              Floyd
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  • Profile picture of the author sarthakbehl
    Dude!

    I don't know what to say to you... Maybe time to go back to a job.

    Sure you have a big debt.. But screw your sis?? I mean screw your sis? MAN... Oh Gosh!

    I have an elder bro... He is my role-model.

    I might not give m,y life for him in a minute... It will be a sec!!

    Just go find a way to make some money, support your family AND IM biz. Then spend that money testing new keywords... Take your sister's help if need be. I am sure she will help you out. She makes $365 a year, right?
    Good Luck
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    (Because I am 12 years Old... Well, soon, anyways)
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  • Profile picture of the author grumpyb
    I was speaking with my accountant one day and I said "this is a moral issue "
    he said to me NO it was a commercial Issue !

    Firstly If you beleive the OP This was not a Family Matter at all It was a Commercial transaction.
    "Party A paid Party B for services rendered"
    The fact that party A and party B are related is inconsequentlal in a commercial transaction.
    I am sure we are not being given the full story here at all. Perhaps party A only hired party B in order to help party B who is in financial difficulty.
    maybe they did not really need to do that at all to acheive the result.

    In reality people screw each other over many times a day and the courts are full of sad tales of woe where one person says one thing and another has a diffrent point of veiw. This is a sad indication of the morals of this world where Cash seems to rule and the aquasition of cash seems to justify many actions in many peoples minds!

    I think it is very difficult to make a judgement based on the small amount of Information given by the OP. Im sure that he knows the full truth of the matter and will make his own judgement call.
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  • Profile picture of the author Barbara Wilson
    There's a lot to this story that we don't know.

    Has the OP asked his sister for help and been refused?

    Is she even aware that he's having financial difficulties? My brother and I are very close. But I have no idea of his financial situation and he has no idea of mine. We don't discuss it.

    The OP performed a service and was paid for it. It has no bearing that it was his sister, except to ask; Why did he charge her? I would have helped my brother with this without payment. So, did he ask for payment because of his financial situation? Or, did she offer to pay him because she knew he needed help and wouldn't ask for it? We don't know.

    Exactly what did he do for this payment? He says "I know exactly the product and keywords to use to make that money since I helped with every aspect." But did he do the keyword research or did she? He says he hasn't the money to test other keywords - so I guess she did the testing. Invested time and money to do so. Has he the right to profit from her investment? I don't think so.

    Family relationships are different from family to family. Some are good, some not so good, some absolutely terrifying. In the end, he was paid to do a job - doesn't that constitute a contract? Additionally, this is his sister and in my book you don't stab your sibling in the back because you have a need you can't meet. I'm sorry. If you don't like or understand the family connection - you don't steal from a client. So on both fronts, what the OP is asking absolution for is wrong - morrally and ethically.

    Frankly, I don't think what the sister has or hasn't done even matters. Let's say he's asked her for help - he's explained his situation - he's in this situation through no fault of his own - he's golden and she's the lowest form of rubbish on this earth has told him to eat dirt. He has classified this as a "moral" issue in his post. Morally - you don't steal from family. Morally - you don't steal from a client. You have to live with yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author bobcath
    I would abandon the idea of approaching her and offering to work with her. Approach this as though she were'nt your sister. If you are telling us the whole story then it sounds like you are not acting like a brother and sister would normally anyway.

    Bob
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  • Profile picture of the author LavelleC
    No wonder this world is so F'd up.
    If the world is so F'd up then why am I holding a chocolate dipped
    ice cream cone from Dairy Queen in my hand and doing the happy
    dance to "Brass Monkey" right now?

    Could I really be so blind to all the injustices in the world? :confused:

    By the way, I tend to think that for a person to consider stabbing
    his sister in the back because he ran up his own debt, it's usually
    easier to stab her in the back, then ask if what you did was morally
    wrong.

    After all, if you're gonna create a moral dilemma out of thin air, you
    might as well profit from it, ya know?

    Lavelle
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Wow a lot or responses to this topic!

    I can only comment based on what you have posted, I can not presume to know anything else that might have transpired between you and your sister.

    So with that said,
    You, A. Helped your sister build an online business and recently launch a product.
    You, B. Where paid for the work you did.
    You, C. Where told by your sister to stay away and not bid on her keywords.
    You, D. Feel left out because your not sharing in her success now.

    A. Thanks for helping your family enjoy success that's very nice of you.
    B. You got paid! SWEET!
    C. Sister is acting with niggardliness.
    D. I would too, but only because I'd expect a family member not to act like C.

    The moral implications are clear, you have none. This is not a case of right or wrong, it's a case of business. And because your sister is being greedy and covetous by telling you not to bid on these keywords, (which by the way she has no right to do so as she does not own them) I'd just compete directly against her and CRUSH her!
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick Judge
    You havent said if you told your sister you are in such a debt, so why not, if she offers to help, great, if not then go out on your own make your own money,

    Surely if your sister can do it why cant you go do something in another niche, surely with your talent you can make money.

    Its just strange to me your sister not helping you out but she probably doesnt know your situation.

    Do you still talk to her, if so is it worth doing what your thinking then your whole family may turn against you.

    I just cant grasp how you did something for your sister and she went on to make €1000 a day and you are in debt.

    I think you should put yourself out there like your sister did, say to her your problem and that you are looking into a niche yourself and maybe find out how she actually did it and what she did, if she sees you are not competing then she may also take pity to your predicament then help you out and you may work as a team,

    but family when it comes to money and property..can be dodgy !!

    Patrick
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    Patrick

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  • Profile picture of the author 4deb
    I think if you have to "ask" if something is okay...you all ready know deep down inside it doesn't feel right, and you're looking for somebody to say, "Sure, go ahead...it will be okay", so that you can justify it.

    Seriously, think about it...if it was okay, why would you even be asking here
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  • Profile picture of the author heyDave
    Hey buddy

    With about 900 views on this post... moral issues are a big topic today

    On a serious note...

    Whether this is the complete story or not... there's plenty of common sense advice here... but in the end... you already know the answer... and if you don't... well that's what separates the men from the boys...

    It sounds like you have the skills... so end of discussion...

    On a lighter note...

    This has the makings of one killer IM sales page...

    All I need is the coming together of you and your sister... and how you guys are ready to reveal the next big secret...

    Some $1000 pay day screen shots

    Sprinkle with Product Launch Formula & Mass Control

    and I'm sure I could sell boat loads of this system for $1997... maybe giving Frank Kern a run for guru of the year

    All in good fun... sometimes the best solution lies in a good laugh.

    Good Luck...
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  • Profile picture of the author MizzCindy
    ... Is it wrong for me to go behind her back and do it anyway?...

    Yes. Plain and simple. Yes, it's wrong.

    I can understand desperation, but don't let debt or fear or jealousy goad you into doing something you already know is wrong (based on your phrase 'go behind her back').

    If you helped her set this business up, then you already have the tools to replicate the business, just in another niche. You've already proven you can do it. And perhaps she'd be willing to assist (note I didn't say 'pay for') you in growing your business as you have for her.

    Even if she's not willing to assist, go ahead and start on your own. You have the ability.

    Don't allow jealousy to be the basis for doing something it really sounds like you'll regret later. Make your own way. Make your own success. You have the skills.

    Cindy
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  • Profile picture of the author deu12000
    The main point is he was paid for his work. This should be looked at as a work for hire situation, not only as a family situation. He did work got paid, saw it successful and now wants to be paid more. He already agreed to a price, that's all he gets. If he wanted more he could have asked from the beginning.

    Basically he has access to confidential information about his sister's business (her keywords, products, techniques, etc...), I wouldn't be surprised if he could be sued for using this "insider" information. She expressed she didn't want him using her keywords or competing, it's a reasonable request, for a work for hire situation. You don't have someone work for you to then compete with you.

    On the family end of it, if one of my relatives was looking to figure out how to screw me over I'd be incredibly pissed. There definitely is a lot missing to the story, but at the end of the day you have a brother asking for advice on how to rip off his sister.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheila
    Point 1: Not all families are healthy and support each other. Sad, but definitely true.

    Point 2: If you and your sister do not have a healthy, supportive relationship - that's just the way it is. Accept it and deal with it in a way that doesn't compromise your integrity.

    Consider this . . .

    It sounds like you entered into a business relationship with your sister the first time - you provided a service, she paid you. OK. That was successful. You both got what you agreed to via a contract. Whether you agreed to the terms verbally or in writing doesn't matter. There were terms and you are morally obligated to adhere to them.

    In hindsight, it seems you would have liked more profit from the deal but since you didn't negotiate for it, you lost out. It happens. So, learn from your mistake, and approach your sister with a second business deal - but this time negotiate better terms for yourself.

    Since your sister knows the quality of your work, it seems like she'd be amenable to repeating the process. If she's a good businessperson, why wouldn't she? And, if she doesn't want to do business with you again, so what? You've gained valuable experience that you can market to someone else, or use to market your own product.

    In fact, if the two of you did not have any agreement regarding confidentiality, you could use your sister's success as a case study to build your own credibility and offer a WSO detailing the proven steps to take to earn $1,000 a day :-)

    Or, as has been suggested by other warriors, why not start your own campaign in another niche? Heck, if you only earn $500 a day in your own niche, it sounds like that'd go a long way towards eliminating your debt and giving you a fresh start!

    The bottom line is this - whatever niche your sister is in, I'd bet there are others in that same niche making money right now. In fact, there may be someone using software to steal her keywords as you're reading this post. No one has an exclusive on a niche. But, I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect to be able to steal someone's keywords and then expect your sister, or your competition, to thank you for it.

    So, why not take the high-road? Take what you've learned from this experience and use it for good. C'mon, wouldn't it feel better to ethically top your sister's (or your competition's) $1,000 a day earnings, rather than topple their business?

    Good luck to you, whatever road you decide to take . . .
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by imguy View Post

    I have over $50,000 in debt, am working an 8 hour a day job and my wife doesn't believe in this online business stuff. I just want to be done with debt already and could do it in two months if I did this.

    It's quite simple...

    If you promised not to do something then you don't do it period...or your word is not worth anything.

    Your debt, your personal circumstances, your wife's opinions...they're all just excuses for you to do something you know you shouldn't be doing because you said you wouldn't.

    Your personal integrity is a whole lot more important than money.

    What gets me is that you're really thinking like a slimeball instead of thinking like a helpful consultant.

    Your sister...who you helped...is making $1,000 a day from your help and you haven't thought of simply going back to her and charging her to help her a little more?!!

    Where the hell is your head at?

    You don't have to think with your head in the gutter here.

    You can be MORE helpful and make MORE money for everyone.

    And you won't have to ask ridiculous questions about whether you should be going behind your own sister's back to screw her and her business.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author NewbiesDiary
    hehe I'm such a parent!!

    When my kids come to me with the "ooh I want to do this, but so-and-so doesn't want me to because bla bla bla" - the kids know its wrong, but are looking for permission so that when it all stuffs up it's not their fault, I told them it was ok.

    Get it??

    Know what I tell them...

    Do what you think is right!

    they HATE IT!!

    Mate why not go talk to your sister, ask her to help you start your business. She's doing well, you need some financial help to do the research (??). Stop looking longingly at her business - get her involved in yours.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    OP has four posts.

    I bet the person who responds most to this thread is the OP.

    "Let's see how good I can make myself look with my responses."

    That's the job of the real OP.

    Garbage post.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by John Rowe View Post

      OP has four posts.

      I bet the person who responds most to this thread is the OP.

      "Let's see how good I can make myself look with my responses."

      That's the job of the real OP.

      Garbage post.
      Well.. I can tell you that someone with the same IP address as the OP has responded twice in this thread...

      Not sure what his intentions are... if the OP's story is true, I can see creating a new identity to save himself face, but there's no excuse for responding to his own thread with another ID... IMHO, anyway.

      In any case, a lot of member energy has already been spent responding to this thread...
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        The OP's story seems especially cheesy -- he helped his sister put together a business that "instantly" took her to mid-6 figures, but he can't make enough to quit his day job? Says his wife doesn't believe in this IM stuff -- you'd think seeing her sister-in-law get close to half-a-mill a year almost overnight would be pretty convincing...

        I hope it still turns out to be true somehow, just because I feel bad for the 100 Warriors who have put the effort into creating thoughtful replies on the assumption that it was as it appeared...
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        • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          The OP's story seems especially cheesy -- he helped his sister put together a business that "instantly" took her to mid-6 figures, but he can't make enough to quit his day job? Says his wife doesn't believe in this IM stuff -- you'd think seeing her sister-in-law get close to half-a-mill a year almost overnight would be pretty convincing...
          Hmm...very strange thing to lie about. For what reason?? None of this makes sense.

          If he could bring her instantly to $1k a day, he could do something similar for himself.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Reason? To get attention! What better than a "moral dilemma" to get responses?

            I am still waiting for the PM.
            May be a long wait - brand new members can't PM until they have a certain number of posts.
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          • Profile picture of the author sam12six
            Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

            The OP's story seems especially cheesy -- he helped his sister put together a business that "instantly" took her to mid-6 figures, but he can't make enough to quit his day job? Says his wife doesn't believe in this IM stuff -- you'd think seeing her sister-in-law get close to half-a-mill a year almost overnight would be pretty convincing...

            I hope it still turns out to be true somehow, just because I feel bad for the 100 Warriors who have put the effort into creating thoughtful replies on the assumption that it was as it appeared...
            Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

            Hmm...very strange thing to lie about. For what reason?? None of this makes sense.

            If he could bring her instantly to $1k a day, he could do something similar for himself.
            The only possible ulterior motive I could see is a big announcement next month that "I've been too far behind the 8-ball for too long to get things rolling. It's time to change that. You all know how I got my sister to $1000/day with my skills. Now, for just $XXX, I'll show you exactly how I did it."

            It's cynical, I know. I'm just always skeptical about someone who's post says both "I'm an experienced marketer with amazing money-making skills" and "I can't afford another domain".
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by sam12six View Post

              The only possible ulterior motive I could see is a big announcement next month that "I've been too far behind the 8-ball for too long to get things rolling. It's time to change that. You all know how I got my sister to $1000/day with my skills. Now, for just , I'll show you exactly how I did it."

              It's cynical, I know. I'm just always skeptical about someone who's post says both "I'm an experienced marketer with amazing money-making skills" and "I can't afford another domain".
              Yep - it's been fun to watch this one grow. It's not cynical - well, it could be, but it happens so frequently that "typical" is more the gist of it.

              So lets pretend it's on the up and up?

              Dude - your sister probably was just too trusting and innocent about your lack of ethics and energy -- and didn't realize she had to sign a non-competition agreement with her own brother to keep him from abusing her. She felt her own brother wouldn't cheat her in a business deal after she paid him the agreed settlement for the work.
              It's too bad she wasn't sharp enough to realize her brother was a shark who would take the easier route of usurping her business rather than putting a bit of extra work into creating his own using the same principles.

              Whether the situation is pre-launch or real........
              1. I am damned glad I'm not your sister.
              2. I will never be your customer.
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        • Profile picture of the author IMChick
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          The OP's story seems especially cheesy -- he helped his sister put together a business that "instantly" took her to mid-6 figures, but he can't make enough to quit his day job? Says his wife doesn't believe in this IM stuff -- you'd think seeing her sister-in-law get close to half-a-mill a year almost overnight would be pretty convincing...

          I hope it still turns out to be true somehow, just because I feel bad for the 100 Warriors who have put the effort into creating thoughtful replies on the assumption that it was as it appeared...

          Just as I suspected--a garbage post. (yup, I agree with John R. again). The same IP address confirms it. Thanks for that, Ken. OP is sitting back laughing at the 100+ responses.
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      • Profile picture of the author WebScript
        Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

        Well.. I can tell you that someone with the same IP address as the OP has responded twice in this thread...

        Not sure what his intentions are... if the OP's story is true, I can see creating a new identity to save himself face, but there's no excuse for responding to his own thread with another ID... IMHO, anyway.

        In any case, a lot of member energy has already been spent responding to this thread...
        Ken,

        How could you know the IP address of the OP ? and that it is the same as another poster ?? That is quite a trick and I'd really like to know how you did it.

        I looked at the profile of the OP and he doesn't list a website there. Please enlighten me.
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  • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
    Basically what the op is asking is whether it's ok to (1) break what is more than likely a contractual obligation (even if it was a verbal contract), and (2) "put the screws" to his own flesh an blood as if she were some faceless competitor who he had no family or business relationship with. I think he already knows the answer to both questions.

    As far as the family issues, I can't speak for anyone else's family, but I know for a fact that there's absolutely nothing my cousins, brothers or sister wouldn't do for me if I needed it and there's nothing I wouldn't do for them if they needed it. In fact I'm working on a project with one of my brothers right now. I'm handling the programming and "creative" side of it and I'm letting him deal with the marketing (since it involves Myspace marketing.. he's a musician, been in half a dozen local bands and has about a million friends on Myspace who he talks to regularly.. so that pretty much makes him the "king" of Myspace marketing in my family lol). We've already agreed that if it's a success, any business expenses are paid off the top and we split the profits 50/50.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      John -

      Spot on! In the end, anyone who is working 50-60 hrs a week, being overdrawn monthly and going further into debt - needs to change his lifestyle to meet his income....or change his income to meet his lifestyle.

      I had a conversation with a friend last night that reminded me of this thread. He's stressed about money all the time - but his wife "wants to stay home", his daughter "needs to be in private school because it's better", his wife "needed the new car because it's reliable", blah blah blah. He's working TWO full time jobs, missing time with his daughter, starting to resent his wife - having "stuff" isn't worth that.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author dbarnum
    There are many, many ways to "team up," do joint ventures, etc. on personal and business levels. Go sit down and have a heart to heart with your sister = my 2-cents. Don't focus on "keywords" but focus on the real problem:

    income ---->>>> you need some, bottom line.


    What comes around goes around, so she surely would want to help you in return. If not, maybe the timing is off, maybe it's greed on her part...who knows?

    No need to sweat it.
    No need to reinvent the wheel, either.
    No need to cheat people, steal, copy, lie...in short do the "bad" stuff, either.


    Instead:

    Put into practice what worked, not copying, cheating, etc. For example:

    - - Find your own best seller now, using means similar to what you did for your sister. Maybe find someone else in need with a great potential, and this time, set up a great JV in advance and team up with them. Live and learn. Repeat success processes over and over.

    There are unlimited items (products, services, combos...) out there ready to be sold. Go get 'em!
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  • Profile picture of the author jyzackoh
    Why not you borrow some money from her? I know she would gladly lend you some since YOU created the business for her!

    Then invest it in your own business since you know how to put a business together! Then you can pay off your debts! And slowly reinvest until you've paid off all your debts!
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Imguy, I really feel your pain. I know what it's like to be in a desperate situation and have a dysfunctional family. I wouldn't dare pass judgement on you, because we all have our "dark side". No one is perfect.

      I also have a feeling you may be too proud to even tell your sister how bad your situation is. I understand that too. You feel like a failure. But you are not. The fact that you came in here seeking moral advice, tells me that you are in turmoil.

      Don't be put off by the judgemental types...because usually the most judgemental types have tons of skeletons in their closets.

      I just want you to think about this before you do anything you will regret later: "What goes around comes around"...so if you do something wrong now, you can bet your *ss it will come back to haunt you later on.

      If your sister doesn't know your situation and you are too proud to ask her for help, that is something you have to deal with. Even if she never helps you, forgive her, be happy for her success, be happy for everyone else's success. Helping people become successful will come back to you in spades, trust me.

      The first thing you need to do is believe in yourself enough to know that you deserve to have the same success as your sister. The Universe is abundant. Stop stressing about your finances, because I guarantee you (I know first hand) the more you stress about lack of finances, the worse it gets. Relax, trust, believe. Know that right now your situation is being taken care of. You are worthy, you deserve a good life, and you can create your own prosperity.

      Whenever you start to feel panic about your situation repeat this to yourself "I am the source of unlimited abundance." Keep repeating this affirmation over and over again until you believe it with every fibre of your being.

      Then do something positive, inspired. I'm sending positive thoughts your way. You are going to be alright, Imguy.

      take care...
      Karen
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      • Profile picture of the author IMChick
        Business and family don't mix. That said, here's what happened:

        1. you got paid for work like any employee
        2. employer owns the intellectual property you made while working for her. This means the methods, keywords, etc. are hers.
        3. employer recognizes the value of the business and asks for a confidentiality agreement.
        4. somewhere along the line the employer let the sales figures out and you got jealous and now you want it for yourself
        4.5 you didn't share in the starting expenses of the business or assume any risks of failure, you're only looking at the ending money.
        5. employee wants to strike out on his own into same niche.
        6. employee has the skills (but not the money) to do the same in a different niche
        7. Employer shouldn't be interested in employee's personal problems
        7. employee has to take a job or do a different type of money making idea on line for a while to get the stake to begin his own business.


        Well, decide what next thanksgiving is going to look like if you do this.
        Or get in that business as a JV or something.

        Or better yet, open a new market or similar niche and stop trying to piss in someone else's swimming pool.

        Don't listen to the arguments 'it makes me sick to see your sister turning her back' blah blah. This smells fishy to me, there is obviously much more history here in this family dynamic.

        Make it on your own. Take the high road and stay out of those key words, whether you think it's right or wrong. Save the relationship.
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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
          Originally Posted by IMChick View Post

          Business and family don't mix.
          Bingo! It doesn't work in my family and I'm alright with it.

          I can't stress this enough: The OP can create his own success. He helped with his services to create his sister's success. There's a universal law: if you help others succeed, and you are happy about their success, then success comes to you.

          imguy, you can offer a valuable service. Just charge more than what you charged your sister for your services.
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          • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
            Speak to your sister and see if you can't work something out between you if the answer is no, simply put the skills you have into operation in a similar vertical and build your own $365k per annum business.
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  • Profile picture of the author thadley
    What are the keywords? I'll bid on them. I think it's really absurd for your sister to ask that. Do you know how many other people are/will be bidding on them? Seems like selfishness on her part to ask that of you.
    I think you need to sit down and have a heart to heart talk with your sister, about more than just business. Hats off to your character though.
    I agree with the other posts: if you're that good, get your mindset in order and make your own campaign. Your sister may come to you to be a partner.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    I don't know if this op is genuine or not.

    Regardless, if you can get it going for your sister as you say, then there is no reason you can't get it done for yourself.

    Even if you can't work together somehow, I'm still not suggesting you copy her exact keywords. There will be many more keywords in that niche plus bazillions more in other niches.

    If you have an arms length relationship, like you would with a normal client, then it would depend on what was agreed between you both at the beginning. With a "normal" client you may have had a duty of care or legal agreement not to disclose or copy the information.

    Another blunt comment is, stop moaning about your situation and stop "blaming" your sister. If you can do this once for her, then you can do it again for yourself.

    Don't resent her success. Make your own!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesviago
    a) don't crap on family. so, no moral dilema.

    b) don't crap on cleints (which she is in this case). so, no moral dilema.

    c) if your work was really the primary cause of a $1000/day cash flow, then just do it again with a new niche. so, no moral dilema.

    d) if your work was not the primary cause, then your sister was the primary cause, and you were helpful but incidental. in which case you need her help, advice and support a heck of a lot more than you need her keywords! so, no moral dilema.

    e) stealing her keywords won't make you $1000/day, because keywords are only one part of the $-making system (unless you steal the whole thing - ads, landing pages, etc - and if you did that she should take her $1000/day cash flow and invest it all in whipping your ... never mind just don't go there). stop dreaming of that fantasy - it looks like easy money and that's blinding you. so, again, no dilema.

    suck it up and go to her cap in hand and offer to work your butt off to help her make more money - but this time get her to pay you in knowledge and not an hourly rate. i've never met a business person who would turn down skilled free labour in return for non-competitive knowledge transfer.

    crickey mate you are in a bad way and i feel for you.

    but don't look here for an excuse to throw your integrity down the dunny. we have all worked hard to be taken seriously and to have raving fans as clients. anyone who runs a serious business has been shafted at some point - deliberately or accidentally, and has had to bite down and resist the urge to return the favour. why would we let you off the hook?

    i've made mistakes and been down $250k. took me 5 years to recover from that one. a few years later i went into business with a family member and wrote off another $200k when it tanked. luckily at that time i could afford it. and we still love and help each other and no hard feelings, no blame, no recriminations. that doesn't happen if you shaft each other and turn into selfish turds when you're down and out.

    be a man and go talk to her. clean it up and tell her you need her. grovel and ask for forgiveness for what ever you did that made her so hard on you. ask for help, counsel, advice. be humble. chuck out your pride - you're the one who needs help, and needs to change. don't be right at the expense of being successful.

    is that enough? i guess this thread touches a nerve in a lot of us here - that alone should tell you A LOT.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Attention? What a strange way to get attention. I can think of better ways LOL
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    siggy taking a break...

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  • Profile picture of the author lpavonne
    I have to say that I am in awe of Steven Wagenheim's family relationships. (maybe a little jealous, too -- wish they were mine)

    My family would happily see me on the street. No, I'm not in contact with them any more. It's safer and healthier.

    At one time, I was strongly tempted to treat some of them as unkindly as they treated me. I realized that those actions would make me into the sort of people they are. I couldn't do it.

    I think that's really the OP's question. Can you be the person you want to be and still do this action? Nobody can answer that question for another person.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Did you know there have been close to 1500 views and 106 replies to this topic.

    The OP wrote a headline that worked and then followed up with a "dilemma" that cried out for a solution. And boy did we respond. Some of the responses were what I thought they would be, but then others I was caught a little off guard. Especially those advocating "stab the bitch in the back". IMO that is a side of "human nature" we should all try to avoid. Regardless if it's a family/friend relationship or a business relationship.

    OP you are the guy that has to make the final call, no matter what any of us say. But let me pose one question to you?

    "Will you be able to look your children in the eye and say this is the way you guys should treat each other?"

    Enough said.

    Ken
    The Old Geezer
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    • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
      Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

      Did you know there have been close to 1500 views and 106 replies to this topic.

      The OP wrote a headline that worked [...]
      basic marketing: EMOTIONS <--- always works

      G.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    I guess the OP needs to ask himself the question:

    "How would I feel if my sister did it to me?"
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Milburn
    Hi,

    Just my thoughts on this thread.

    1) You Charged your sister for the work you did, now I am not going to comment on that bit as each family is different and she may have felt as this was a way of helping out her brother. But as soon as she paid you, or you charged her then you turned what was a helping hand into a business transaction.

    Did you get her to sign a contract ?

    As others have suggested go and find a niche of your own.

    Find some more paying clients and get referrals.

    Ask your sister to provide referrals for you.

    Do a JV with her

    Start a new business up with her.

    But I do think stealing her Keywords is wrong.

    Once last question if she was not your sister would you still use the keywords if they were a fee paying client.

    Regards
    AndyUk
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    • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
      Originally Posted by Andrew Milburn View Post

      Hi,

      Just my thoughts on this thread.
      Why was this old thread dragged back to the 1st page when the OP never even came back?
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      siggy taking a break...

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  • Profile picture of the author n00b
    Obviously the sister has a scarcity mindset if she even asked him not to use the same keywords. I'm not saying he should or shouldn't do it or she should or shouldn't have said it, but bottom line is that comes from a position of fear and scarcity. So it is no surprise that he didn't ask for advice on approaching her on a win-win, she obviously doesn't want it. If she was really interested in a win-win she would have at least given him an affiliate link to promote her product or cut him in. It sounds like the whole win-win or have a heart to heart discussion is out. The sister clearly is working from a scarcity mentality and not a give more receive more mentality. I think that is really sad. She could have looked at this whole thing as an opportunity to expand her business with a person who she knows is going to be a great affiliate and then she would not only be getting money from his work, but she could branch out and find more avenues for promoting her product or start working on an upsell. Now instead of having a supportive brother who is excited about helping her grow her business so both of them can succeed, she has a brother who probably won't help her out the next time she comes to him with a great idea. Money really does change things with family. I don't know about you, but if I was suddenly making $30,000 a month, I think I could live just as well off of $20,000 a month with the other $10,000 a month going to my brother so we could work together to get our business up to $50,000 a month and beyond. This is how I think, obvisouly she doesn't think this way so giving him advice as if he is working with someone with a prosperity mindset is pointless.

    So, you need to do what you need to do. In my humble opinion, your first allegiance is to your wife and kids and making sure they are taken care of. Does that mean you need to make $30,000 a month right away? I don't think so. An extra $5,000 a month and I think your family would be ecstatic. But, I don't know your situation. Bottom line is, your kids come first. It sounds like your sister doesn't care and if that's the case I don't think she would hesitate to screw you if she needed money for her kids (since she pretty much already did that.) So you need to do what you can live with. If someone had your kids and told you that you had 30 days to come up with $30,000 to get them back, I'd say screw the sister and do it. I don't think your situation is that drastic. I think with a few extra thousand dollars a month you'd be fine. If that's the case, save the relationship with the sister and find a different niche and you'll make enough to get out of immediate trouble and then you can start working on the debt.

    Moral of the story? Unless you've proven that it has worked in the past, don't do business with family. It will always lead to hurt feelings at some point.
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  • Profile picture of the author dclozen
    I just don't get it. How can you ban someone from bidding on keywoords?
    If That's true.. I BAN ALL youse guys from using the following keywords.

    "Make Money From Home"
    "Home Business Ideas"
    "Internet Wealth System"
    "Make Moe Money"

    Now If I catch any of you using MY keywords... I'll pitch a fit...

    This whole thread is just NUTS
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    -=-Dennis-=-
    DLx Business Reviews

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  • Profile picture of the author currencyschool
    for starters you should try to begin to understand how business and money making work (or how they are supposed to work). you are speaking the words of somebody who believes that opportunity and economic gain are finite resources. they are not. when you do work that creates value, other benefit and they spend. this creates a cascade of opportunity for you and others to work on. the reality is that you make money by creating value for others. you get to share in the surplus value that you create. when you did work for your sister the thought is that your efforts created value for her. is there nothing that she can do for you that helps launch your enterprise? are those keywords SO valuable that there are no others that can make money for you?

    learn how to use keywords to generate other keywords and do the research to cherry pick the very best ones and work them yourself. most importantly, remember this: either you can go out and create value or you can't. if you can you will have a lifetime of plenty. if not, then you have to go out and learn.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Riley
    Wow so many posts and so many unique thoughtful suggestions to help with this "moral dilemma"

    I cant figure this one out exactly simply because I'm not you - I dont know the whole story so I can not presume to assume anything here.

    What I can say is - it is entirely up to you what you do fully understanding that you alone are responsible for everything in your life - thinking in that way you also accept full responsibility for all consequences of your actions.

    Best of Success
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The OP joined on 3/20 - posted 4 times in this thread - and poof - he's gone.

      funny!

      kay
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      Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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