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Email List Building Is Dead

by Troy_Phillips
108 replies
I have received several comments via email and on blog stating that email list building just doesn't work anymore. Being one to reverse engineer everything I can .. I had to investigate.

One such response belonged to a person who had a blog. After searching every nook and cranny, all I could find was a "join my newsletter" form in the upper right hand corner.

With only a newsletter as email bait, this person had no idea if email marketing was dead or alive. Their blog didn't engage me to the point of wanting to join anything to get more of the same.

Out of curiosity I did join their newsletter. After conformation I didn't hear from them for over a week and then .. you guessed it .. no newsletter just several days of pure sales type emails .. no presell .. no warming .. nothing but buy my sh!t.

Yes .. their type of email marketing is dead as a doornail.

Another person actually engaged with me and I found they were building their list from paid solo ads from a basic solo ad farm. In less than a month they were the proud owners of 2300 plus email list members. Things went well "open wise" for them as long as they were sending free stuff out. In less than 60 days their list had dropped to 900 after they started sending actual Buy Links. They had made a whopping 12 sales at $7 each.

Now admittedly their sales process was somewhat flawed. They could have used some actual marketing and probably did a little better.

Most solo type ads are built with trained clickers. People who are looking for free. It can be a free anything really. 12 buyers out of 2000 is not worth my time .. how about yours?

This type of email marketing .. at least to me is dead.

I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. I can promise you .. email marketing or any other type of marketing is dead if you do not at least grasp the basics of actual marketing.

Use common sense when gathering your leads. Don't fall for the more the merrier when it comes to list size. Not only is email marketing not dead, it will always have a place in the overall scheme of things as long as the email is still used to communicate.
#building #dead #email #list
  • Profile picture of the author Gerald Arno
    Banned
    Why would it be dead if there are still plenty of people who are making pretty good money with it?

    The people who market their list to dead are the people who lose it all (due to greed and lack of understanding).

    The size of the list is completely irrelevant and is certainly not the biggest factor that determines your income. Yes, you do need a significant list to pull in ongoing conversions, but 5000 leads that are just seeking for freebies are not going to make you million.

    The best leads are the ones that already purchased your product(s).

    Many online marketers are guilty to bombard their list with daily emails, suggesting to opt-in to other lists. Ad swaps can be effective if you use them right but if you over do it, it can cost you your list.

    Make sure that everything you do is a well thought out plan, not an act of frustration.
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  • Profile picture of the author IMSince2003
    ...and here I was about to drop my Aweber account ...
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    • Profile picture of the author smallbusinesstoolkit
      I start coming to conclusion that all the methods to articially "boost " traffic or size of the list are useless.
      In the of the day you don`t want just traffic or huge list , you want quality traffic and quality list , you just want sales...
      Maybe just better to post your stuff on blog and social sites and youtube and just let people find you....
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      • Profile picture of the author ColtForty5
        Email marketing is dead.....SEO is dead.....I've heard it all. These things will never die, in order to succeed in the future you will need to adapt and change your strategies to still be effective. Those who are hardworking and put in the effort will continue to make money, while the lazy and unoriginal marketers will be left in the dust.
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        • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
          Originally Posted by ColtForty5 View Post

          Email marketing is dead.....SEO is dead.....I've heard it all. These things will never die, in order to succeed in the future you will need to adapt and change your strategies to still be effective. Those who are hardworking and put in the effort will continue to make money, while the lazy and unoriginal marketers will be left in the dust.
          Actually I know several (self admitted) lazy and unoriginal marketers who are turning 6 figures a month and there seems to be a lot of hard workers on here not making a dime. Doesn't seem right .. does it?
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      • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
        Originally Posted by smallbusinesstoolkit View Post

        I start coming to conclusion that all the methods to articially "boost " traffic or size of the list are useless.
        In the of the day you don`t want just traffic or huge list , you want quality traffic and quality list , you just want sales...
        Maybe just better to post your stuff on blog and social sites and youtube and just let people find you....
        Actually people need to decide if they want to be a list builder or a direct seller. The hybrid marketer rarely excels at either. I determined a long time ago I would rather have your email as an initial sale. It has worked very well for me. Not saying it is the only way .. just my way.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
    Banned
    The old, "insert some form of making money online" is dead - it well....

    ... never gets old.

    I have had 3 emails from 'gurus' in the last couple of months telling me email was dieing and they had a guaranteed system to make sure my lists never died.

    It's a disgrace, really. - These marketers are hypocrites, and will do anything for a sale, I suppose that's how they became gurus though.

    A list of buyers that you've built a good, honest and credible connection with - will never die.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by ryanmilligan View Post


      A list of buyers that you've built a good, honest and credible connection with - will never die.
      And if we get nothing else from this post .. read Ryan's reply over and over .. Ryan hits the nail on the head .. sinks it first try.
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  • Profile picture of the author jingrong
    Not just sell sell and sell. Have to build trusts with your subscriber.
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    • Profile picture of the author trswitch
      Originally Posted by jingrong View Post

      Not just sell sell and sell. Have to build trusts with your subscriber.
      That's it. People fail because they do not understand the marketing basics...or because they are lazy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cold Brew
    It most definitely is not dead. If you can sell something to somebody and get them on your list, you then have a very targeted list to advertise to. It can work very well
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    The next question. Would you rather have a list of 100 buyers or 1000 members, who have not bought yet, but whom you have targeted very well?
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      The next question. Would you rather have a list of 100 buyers or 1000 members, who have not bought yet, but whom you have targeted very well?
      Buyers all the way Troy...

      ... depends on how you aquired the members actually, if it was something like an 'early-bird' list, then I would probably prefer that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Due Diligence
    I know this may be a little off topic but I started a thread on it about 1hr ago and still have no post yet and I really need to know the answers so here it goes ...

    How many unopened follow up messages do you wait for before deciding a subscriber is unresponsive? ie. (0/10) They received 10 follow up messages and opened 0.
    where as everyone else on the list has opened at least 1/10. So they're are the most unresponsive of the "group" with a response/open rate of 0%

    And once you've decided they're unresponsive, what do you do with them? do you delete them? or do you keep them on there anyways ... maybe they'll open and email blast eventually (just have to strike the right nerve in them )

    Please keep in mind I don't care WHY they're not opening the emails as I have a good portion of my list that do I just want to know what to do with them or when to decide enough is enough ... (please be "NEWBIE FRIENDLY" in responses)
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    When funneling list members I try my best to get those that open on their own list and those that buy on their own list and so on. Set a predetermined amount of emails you want to send to a list before you declare that list member non-responsive. If you are funneling correctly the initial list should end up being a list full of people you consider non-responsive. When you get to that point nuke em.
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    • Profile picture of the author Due Diligence
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      When funneling list members I try my best to get those that open on their own list and those that buy on their own list and so on. Set a predetermined amount of emails you want to send to a list before you declare that list member non-responsive. If you are funneling correctly the initial list should end up being a list full of people you consider non-responsive. When you get to that point nuke em.
      Thanks so much for that reply ... so let me get this straight let's say 10% of your subscribers has never opened any of your follow ups they received ... you would nuke em right? but how many or how long would you wait before doing that?

      and does anybody disagree?
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  • Profile picture of the author seekdefo
    the kind of marketing is dead, its not even marketing
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by seekdefo View Post

      the kind of marketing is dead, its not even marketing
      Care to explain that further? One line general statements are great at building post counts but do very little good for the forum as a whole.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

        The next question. Would you rather have a list of 100 buyers or 1000 members, who have not bought yet, but whom you have targeted very well?
        Troy, I can give you good, but diametrically opposed answers to that. Maybe I should bag this marketing thing for politics? Naw, too many people I wouldn't invite to dinner.

        Answer 1 (and the way I do things):

        I'll take the 100 buyers. I target markets where people have proven to be serial buyers (obsessive hobbies and the like). I know that if I got them to buy from me once, I can likely get them to buy from me several more times.

        Answer 2:

        If I were to tackle some of the very narrow 'desperate buyer' niches, where a sale of a real solution pretty much takes that buyer out of the pool, I'll take the targeted prospects.

        In this case, buyers have either cured their itch or they've bought a solution from me that didn't work. If they already bought a solution that didn't work, why would they buy from me again?
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        • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Troy, I can give you good, but diametrically opposed answers to that. Maybe I should bag this marketing thing for politics? Naw, too many people I wouldn't invite to dinner.

          Answer 1 (and the way I do things):

          I'll take the 100 buyers. I target markets where people have proven to be serial buyers (obsessive hobbies and the like). I know that if I got them to buy from me once, I can likely get them to buy from me several more times.

          Answer 2:

          If I were to tackle some of the very narrow 'desperate buyer' niches, where a sale of a real solution pretty much takes that buyer out of the pool, I'll take the targeted prospects.

          In this case, buyers have either cured their itch or they've bought a solution from me that didn't work. If they already bought a solution that didn't work, why would they buy from me again?
          I was just asking opinion and didn't really expect wrong or right answers .. sure didn't expect to get two so very right answers lol. Answers like that is why I stick around the WF.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingMinded
    Yes, that type of email marketing is an exercise in futility.

    Real profitable email lists are those that have been nurtured. Those who've build trust and create unique one-to-one reletionship with their subscribers.

    It's about longevity. It's about earning each subscriber. When you cut corners and buy subscribers, you dillute the quality of your list.

    Just my two cents...
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  • Profile picture of the author TerranceCharles
    I almost SPIT my food all over my HP laptop screen when I first saw the headline. Email marketing is nowhere dead, not even close. What is dead is those spammy tactics used to get people to signup for their email list and then blast them with a whole bunch on non-related offers. Whenever someone says, email marketing is dead - I usually ask them, where did you hear that? Their reply usually, I got a email from someone earlier Fact is, most of the times you hear this, it's usually from someone telling you this in their email that they sent out.

    Build your list the correct way and you'll do fine. And, it all DEPENDS on how your generating your subscribers, if you're using outdated and sketchy methods, you'll have outdated and sketchy subscribers that only want free stuff. However, I do understand where people say... They've built their list, offered free stuff, sent 1 sales email and their list died. There's a fix for that, train your subscribers from the jump that you offer paid products by setting up your sales funnel the correct way, so they know that you DO sell but also give free valuable content.

    As mentioned above, the size of your list does NOT matter. I know some marketers that have a list of 1,000 subscribers that can outsell a list of 10,000+ subscribers. A list of freebie seekers will make you money, but a list of buyers will make you a nice living. Another thing, people only like to do business with people they know, like and trust (KLT factor). It does make a BIG difference when you build your list with subscribers from your products, rather than from someone else's, because they know YOU
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  • Profile picture of the author CashReview
    Well said, Troy. Any time I hear something is "dead" in IM, it's either someone using a scare tactic to sell you their new and improved "option"...

    ... or, like you found out, the person crying about it is simply using a flawed system.

    It doesn't matter the medium -- if your prospects love hearing from you, the communication channel will never die out.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Many people are willing to assume that if they failed, everyone will fail.

    My advice.... Don't take advice from failures!!
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Many people are willing to assume that if they failed, everyone will fail.

      My advice.... Don't take advice from failures!!
      Exactly...

      People tend to forget that IM is all about testing, test; try; test; try - what works for one might not work for someone else.
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    • Profile picture of the author JabMonkey
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Many people are willing to assume that if they failed, everyone will fail.

      My advice.... Don't take advice from failures!!
      Lol! True, but sometimes that is easier said than done, because a failure in email marketing might be successful in other areas and based on their successes people listen to what they say, regarding them as an authority. That's how a lot of bogus strategies and IM myths are perpetuated online.

      I mean, look at just how many autobloggers there are, scraping content and posting it, not knowing or caring what they are posting, just generating everything based on keywords. Then driving traffic to their blogs. A lot false and lame crap gets spread around that way.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Many people are willing to assume that if they failed, everyone will fail.
      Now you see If the main board regulars took that saying to heart us SEO types wouldn't be in here laughing at you all cause some people believe your preferred way of getting sales is dead too.
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      • Profile picture of the author marketguy
        First, I am not in the IM niche, nor do I have a list of any kind.
        However, I am subscribed to quite a few lists, so here are my 2 cents worth:

        As mentioned by many in this thread, I also believe that list building still works, if done correctly.

        Unfortunately, there seem to be very few marketers left, that understand that.

        Each list I subscribed to, has something in common. They had my interest in a very specific service or product.

        Now, I get spammed with emails, that have nothing to do with my original motive for subscribing and what's even worse is that I get the same emails, or variations of, about the same new WSO or JV from almost everyone.

        The result is, that I hit the unsubscribe button often these days.

        I am a customer.
        Take care of MY needs and I might just continue to buy from you.

        So, without a shadow of a doubt....SPAMMY email list building is indeed dead.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Here's a fun project for someone with too much time on their hands...

          Go through Facebook and count the mainstream companies that have a fan page. Count how many of them also work hard to get an email address. Subtract the latter from the former.

          My guess is that the remainder will be less than 5% of the original number.
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          • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Here's a fun project for someone with too much time on their hands...

            Go through Facebook and count the mainstream companies that have a fan page. Count how many of them also work hard to get an email address. Subtract the latter from the former.

            My guess is that the remainder will be less than 5% of the original number.
            God...I knew it! It was only a matter of time before someone resorted to math!

            Regards,
            jim
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          • Profile picture of the author Byrt M
            Tomorrow at any given moment, millions of businesses (solos, retailers, manufacturers, offliners, onliners, vendors, etc) in one way or another will be sending and receiving emails, and will continue to do so every single day after that in every time zone, Northern and Southern Hemispheres.

            Oh yeah baby, email as a tool and a content carrier is here to stay....for a long, long while yet.
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  • Profile picture of the author shane_k
    Usually when someone says that something is dead, it's because

    1) They are not succeeding at it

    2) They are not willing to accept that it could be the actions that they are taking that is causing them to fail at that strategy.

    So instead of taking a close look at what they are doing, which would hurt their precious ego, they just point the finger and blame the strategy.

    But if they were to just stop and take a moment and realize that it might not be the strategy but how they are applying it, then they would realize that if they changed HOW they were doing things they could change their results.

    Imagine if this person who is claiming that list building is dead, instead of doing that, took a moment and talked to someone experienced like the OP, and 1) put their ego aside, 2) took responsibility, and 3) changed the way they were using the strategy, the habitual things they were doing that weren't working and instead choose new steps and actions, imagine where they could be now, and what kind of difference just the advice in this post could have on their results

    I would say it could be some pretty amazing results.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Clark
      To the Op. What are your numbers? I have a friend who has a list of 3000 subscribers and her open rate is 5%. To me that is very low! If you expect to make any money your open rate should at least be 15% and 20% is even better.

      And the click through rate should be about 17%. If your numbers don't match what I'm suggesting then you need to work on getting them up. I would work on clever titles first.

      I could make more money with 500 subscribers than she is making with the three thousand!
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      • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
        Originally Posted by James Clark View Post

        To the Op. What are your numbers? I have a friend who has a list of 3000 subscribers and her open rate is 5%. To me that is very low! If you expect to make any money your open rate should at least be 15% and 20% is even better.

        And the click through rate should be about 17%. If your numbers don't match what I'm suggesting then you need to work on getting them up. I would work on clever titles first.

        I could make more money with 500 subscribers than she is making with the three thousand!
        James,

        The numbers vary from niche to niche. In one of my very narrowed down sports niches my squeeze converts at 90% plus. The actual open rate is over 95% and my subject line always starts with "Coach Troy here" This list has over 30,000 on it. This is a very seasonal list but it converts extremely well during preseason and season.

        I wish those results were typical for all my niches but they are not.
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        • Profile picture of the author James Clark
          Where is the traffic coming from? If the traffic is coming from one of those search engines, based on my experience most of them are window shoppers!

          Try these titles: "Stop what you are doing and take a look at this" and "Put everything on hold and read this now!

          What can it hurt? My numbers are from the IM niche and small business owners.

          Jimmy.
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          • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
            Originally Posted by James Clark View Post

            Where is the traffic coming from? If the traffic is coming from one of those search engines, based on my experience most of them are window shoppers!

            Try these titles: "Stop what you are doing and take a look at this" and "Put everything on hold and read this now!

            What can it hurt? My numbers are from the IM niche and small business owners.

            Jimmy.
            Jimmy,

            If your traffic from the search engines are mostly (just) tire kickers then you are not targeting properly. Also take into consideration most people are tire kickers to a certain point.It is human nature to kick a little before you buy. Learning to actually market to these tire kickers is our responsibility and will decide our success in the im game.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewStark
    Made me laugh, great post, such a shame that so many people blame everyone else for their failure.
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  • Profile picture of the author IntoughShape
    Love this post, I 100% agree with you. However I 'm just starting out with building a list, and I seriously need some help deciding. Whats a better choice for my money, aweber or getresponse? I mean aweber is slightly more expensive but it seems like better quality service and it always gets good reviews when I ask people. But I'm still not sure which is better, share your opinions guys! I'd really appreciate it

    And again nice post!
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by IntoughShape View Post

      Love this post, I 100% agree with you. However I 'm just starting out with building a list, and I seriously need some help deciding. Whats a better choice for my money, aweber or getresponse? I mean aweber is slightly more expensive but it seems like better quality service and it always gets good reviews when I ask people. But I'm still not sure which is better, share your opinions guys! I'd really appreciate it

      And again nice post!
      It is the Ford and Chevy type deal here. Most people will pick the one they drive but both will get you where you are going.

      I have used both Awebber and Get Response, as well as several other autoresponders. For my taste .. I will take Get Response. It does everything I need and more.
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      • Profile picture of the author IntoughShape
        Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

        It is the Ford and Chevy type deal here. Most people will pick the one they drive but both will get you where you are going.

        I have used both Awebber and Get Response, as well as several other autoresponders. For my taste .. I will take Get Response. It does everything I need and more.
        seriously? thanks man I was thinking of going with getresponse honestly don't have a huge budget for it so any cost cutting is helpful for the moment. Thats exactly what I was looking for, something that gets the job done, has all the features and doesn't cost too much. LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author mcbiz
          Today I know: ad swap is killing your list. I am use safe swaps for it and in begin I have good open and click rate and I have sales! But when I am begin make swaps ... Open rate low low low, click rate low and NO sales!

          I am think FREE gifts killing your list.
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          • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
            Originally Posted by mcbiz View Post

            Today I know: ad swap is killing your list. I am use safe swaps for it and in begin I have good open and click rate and I have sales! But when I am begin make swaps ... Open rate low low low, click rate low and NO sales!

            I am think FREE gifts killing your list.
            The free gift can either make or break your list .. no doubt. Ad swaps usually benefit only one party. Most of those list are built for the purpose of swapping. In short .. you gave up your good list and in return received a swap list.

            If you feel you must do swaps know the demographics of the list you are swapping with. Control the swap. Know release times. Find out all you can and then make an intelligent decision.
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          • Profile picture of the author June Loh
            Originally Posted by mcbiz View Post

            Today I know: ad swap is killing your list. I am use safe swaps for it and in begin I have good open and click rate and I have sales! But when I am begin make swaps ... Open rate low low low, click rate low and NO sales!

            I am think FREE gifts killing your list.
            I am totally agree with you. I was in the same situation as you before. Opening rate was high (in order to get the FREE stuff). Unfortunately the open rate was so damn low.

            Is better to do traditional way by email marketing, blogging etc... Do you have any other suggestion to improve opening rate? (please give me some good advice and be good to me, I am still a freshie~) Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    I'm happy to admit that I am a complete novice in this area but when I read articles like the following I have misgivings about the future of email marketing. Marketing Trends for 2013 and beyond 2013 « INSIDE A MARKETING MIND: BLOG BY GARETH CASE

    The different perspectives confuse me greatly, but as I said, I am the novice. Enlighten me. Please.
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    • Profile picture of the author James Clark
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      Jimmy,

      If your traffic from the search engines are mostly (just) tire kickers then you are not targeting properly. Also take into consideration most people are tire kickers to a certain point.It is human nature to kick a little before you buy. Learning to actually market to these tire kickers is our responsibility and will decide our success in the im game.
      Not my traffic! I have a Blog with a few articles. That traffic is worthless to me! My traffic is more targeted by yours truly and I'm not at liberty to discuss in the open.

      Let me be clear, if I was depending on the traffic from the search engines I would be homeless. (LOL) When I speak I'm talking about my personal experience or my clients or something that I read.

      Notice I ref reading last and that was done for a reason. No one is interesting in what I read about, but what I actually tested.
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      • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
        Originally Posted by James Clark View Post

        Not my traffic! I have a Blog with a few articles. That traffic is worthless to me! My traffic is more targeted by yours truly and I'm not at liberty to discuss in the open.

        Let me be clear, if I was depending on the traffic from the search engines I would be homeless. (LOL) When I speak I'm talking about my personal experience or my clients or something that I read.

        Notice I ref reading last and that was done for a reason. No one is interesting in what I read about, but what I actually tested.
        I myself do not count on the search engines for the majority of my traffic but I have in the past. Please do not take this as disrespectful ... your failure or my failure to do something does not mean the tactic is flawed .. it could just mean we need to educate ourselves a little better on the tactic.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by David Braybrooke View Post

      I'm happy to admit that I am a complete novice in this area but when I read articles like the following I have misgivings about the future of email marketing. Marketing Trends for 2013 and beyond 2013 « INSIDE A MARKETING MIND: BLOG BY GARETH CASE

      The different perspectives confuse me greatly, but as I said, I am the novice. Enlighten me. Please.
      The dude is big on social marketing. Social marketing may be the wave of the future or those sites may decide they have had enough of all but the biggest of companies and start banning the everyday little guys.

      Look at Twitter .. it is a basic spam fest for most anymore. Face Book goes public and the owner has reportedly lost well over 1 billion.

      AS long as we deliver valid, in demand information, the delivery mechanism will not matter. I will chose to use email marketing as I can somewhat control the resource. Wouldn't it be bad to log on to FB tomorrow and not be welcome any longer? As long as you have backups .. your list can live forever.
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  • Profile picture of the author wlasikiewicz
    Email list building isnt dead its just getting harder and harder to get people to opt in.
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    Build a Profitable & Professional email list.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by wlasikiewicz View Post

      Email list building isnt dead its just getting harder and harder to get people to opt in.
      Move the free line. Offer them something they truly want. The day of using junk ebooks to get signups is long gone. Throw junk in .. get junk back out.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
        Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

        Move the free line. Offer them something they truly want. The day of using junk ebooks to get signups is long gone. Throw junk in .. get junk back out.
        And what exactly do people 'truly want' Troy? People can be extraordinarily fickle and I can't read minds. What works today may not work tomorrow etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author IntoughShape
    Originally Posted by illinimatt81 View Post

    I work at a company that has millions on our lists.

    I can assure you we can press send and generate big revenues at any time.
    very nice to hear
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    Originally Posted by illinimatt81 View Post

    I work at a company that has millions on our lists.

    I can assure you we can press send and generate big revenues at any time.
    Millions is a nice number. It is not realistic for the average internet marketer. I try to stress quality of list members over quantity. Engage with your list and you will not need a seemingly unattainable number to make list building profitable for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

      Millions is a nice number. It is not realistic for the average internet marketer. I try to stress quality of list members over quantity. Engage with your list and you will not need a seemingly unattainable number to make list building profitable for you.
      Exactly, quality over quantity.

      Would you rather one buyer who will buy a $10'000 product - or 100 buyers who will buy a $50?

      If you're smart, you'll take the single buyer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dimitris Skiadas
    Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

    ...
    Out of curiosity I did join their newsletter. After conformation I didn't hear from them for over a week and then .. you guessed it .. no newsletter just several days of pure sales type emails .. no presell .. no warming .. nothing but buy my sh!t.

    Yes .. their type of email marketing is dead as a doornail.

    Another person actually engaged with me and I found they were building their list from paid solo ads from a basic solo ad farm. In less than a month they were the proud owners of 2300 plus email list members. Things went well "open wise" for them as long as they were sending free stuff out. In less than 60 days their list had dropped to 900 after they started sending actual Buy Links. They had made a whopping 12 sales at $7 each.

    Now admittedly their sales process was somewhat flawed. They could have used some actual marketing and probably did a little better.

    Most solo type ads are built with trained clickers. People who are looking for free. It can be a free anything really. 12 buyers out of 2000 is not worth my time .. how about yours?

    This type of email marketing .. at least to me is dead.
    Great thread.This happens not only in e-mail marketing. I have seen people saying that...

    (x) marketing is DEAD!

    where (x) equals to : Affiliate, Facebook,PPC, Article, CPA, and the list goes on.

    Everything WORKS. As long as you do it the right way.

    Unfortunately, lately i have unsubscribed from a lot of IM lists. Because they give no value to me anymore. I am referring to the example you gave above with the list that has lost 1400 people.

    One very known Internet Marketer had done an excellent job in building trust, pre-selling and giving a good freebie.I joined his list almost 3 years ago. After the first 2-3 emails, everything's changed.

    Now all i receive twice or 3 times a week is an affiliate promotion.And nothing else.No IM news, no new techniques, no tips at all.

    You give no value, no money goes out of my pocket.

    Dimitris
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by Garage667 View Post

      Great thread.This happens not only in e-mail marketing. I have seen people saying that...

      (x) marketing is DEAD!

      where (x) equals to : Affiliate, Facebook,PPC, Article, CPA, and the list goes on.

      Everything WORKS. As long as you do it the right way.

      Unfortunately, lately i have unsubscribed from a lot of IM lists. Because they give no value to me anymore. I am referring to the example you gave above with the list that has lost 1400 people.

      One very known Internet Marketer had done an excellent job in building trust, pre-selling and giving a good freebie.I joined his list almost 3 years ago. After the first 2-3 emails, everything's changed.

      Now all i receive twice or 3 times a week is an affiliate promotion.And nothing else.No IM news, no new techniques, no tips at all.

      You give no value, no money goes out of my pocket.

      Dimitris
      Sadly, many marketers get greedy and abandon the practices that brought them fame. Their idea of value gets skewed. They feel they are offering you value by sending out affiliate offers that really offer no value.
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  • Profile picture of the author LukeDavenport
    I agree with this thread some ways, "Join My Newsletter" Type stuff is just too vague and boring.

    No one wants to just get your updates...They want COOL free stuff!
    Valuable and helpful to them obviously.

    Email marketing is far from dead, it's all about how you treat your list. Frank Kern has a story where he made just over $1 Million Dollars off of a list of 7,000 subscribers.

    Small or big, a list is valuable if you make the right moves.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Kent
    Building trust is very important in list building. There are many list builders who offer some
    junk for optin and then begin to blast their offers. Or they might offer some free stuffs for a while
    and all of sudden begin to only send buy this offers. You need to time your free stuffs and your
    offers. There are many people sending emails to those same subs. So, you don't want to bother them with your daily email blasts. Also you can giveway some really valuable tips or method but incomplete which is form of preselling and then send them your offer. This way you are more likely to get response. You need to know how to build a responsive list or how to make your list responsive.

    Edit:
    List Building is Not Dead, some people just don't know how to do it!
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Forum posting is dead.
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    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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    • Profile picture of the author MariusPrice
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Forum posting is dead.
      Yea thats funny Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author RPaige
      Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Email list building is NOT dead. It is very important to build trust and this is a great method in which to do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Byrt M
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Forum posting is dead.
      You're a funny guy E Brian.
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  • Profile picture of the author Auggie Tsai
    A tool is only as useful as the person using it. Put me in front of a block of marble and hand me a hammer and chisel and you'll get rubble. Give the same material and tools to Michelangelo and you end up with David.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    It isn't so much that list marketing as a significant % of your income is dead; it's moreso that the practice is in decline and you must now operate on a high level to achieve decent results. To the people that would rather devote their resources elsewhere, list marketing is effectively dead to them even though they may still maintain a list they put little effort into (thus the perception that naysayers aren't doing it right). Even large corporations with their massive buyer lists are abandoning list marketing.

    The cause is dwindling use of email as a primary form of online communication and the resulting intolerance of emails that aren't from grandma, account creation confirmation or password resets. Everything else, even if they opted in, is usually treated as spam. Sometimes people buy from spam and sometimes they buy from their opted in newsletters. It just doesn't happen at the rate it did 10 years ago and there are better uses of your time nowadays.
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  • Profile picture of the author eaglefliesover
    Again everyone is focusing on the tool, when what really matters is the content
    and does it show concern for the reader. I suppose any form of marketing is dead to you if you deem it so in your mind. The age old business addage of "caring for your
    clients first, and then they will take care of you" should be applied and overlayed no matter what the computer technique be ! First you need a solid business plan, then apply the computer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark72
    Open and click rates are down compared to a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't exactly say email marketing is dead.

    But it is interesting though that at least 3 big gurus have recently claimed that they're giving up on their lists to concentrate entirely on consulting and coaching.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by Mark72 View Post

      Open and click rates are down compared to a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't exactly say email marketing is dead.

      But it is interesting though that at least 3 big gurus have recently claimed that they're giving up on their lists to concentrate entirely on consulting and coaching.
      They are abandoning their list because they left their first love.They no longer provide value to that list. They saw them as a constant source for a sales pitch and nothing else. The list that is being truly helped never dies .. never.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mousumi
    Email List building is very much alive and kicking
    According to DMA, email conversion rates have actually increased 16.1 percent in the past two years.
    Your list is priceless..if you aren't getting conversion, you need to revamp your email marketing strategies.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by Mousumi View Post

      Email List building is very much alive and kicking
      According to DMA, email conversion rates have actually increased 16.1 percent in the past two years.
      Your list is priceless..if you aren't getting conversion, you need to revamp your email marketing strategies.
      Yes ... according to my own test and many case studies I have read .. email marketing is on the rise and not declining as many seem to think. Sadly I am not as vigilant as people like Alexa in defending their marketing style .. in the long run .. anyone who doesn't believe is just on less competitor.
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      • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
        Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

        Yes ... according to my own test and many case studies I have read .. email marketing is on the rise and not declining as many seem to think. Sadly I am not as vigilant as people like Alexa in defending their marketing style .. in the long run .. anyone who doesn't believe is just on less competitor.
        I guess that's how you gotta look at it - if _______ is dead, then everybody stops doin _______ and leaves it to all the demented people who still think it's alive (and still make money with it ).
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        I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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        • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
          Originally Posted by cjreynolds View Post

          I guess that's how you gotta look at it - if _______ is dead, then everybody stops doin _______ and leaves it to all the demented people who still think it's alive (and still make money with it ).
          CJ,

          You look at things just off the wall enough to be one of the greatest marketers of all time. Can I have your autograph before you make it so big you no longer have the time for us little guys?
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          • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
            Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

            CJ,

            You look at things just off the wall enough to be one of the greatest marketers of all time. Can I have your autograph before you make it so big you no longer have the time for us little guys?
            LOL! You may have to wait awhile before my autographs become valuable
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            I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips View Post

        Yes ... according to my own test and many case studies I have read .. email marketing is on the rise and not declining as many seem to think.
        Can you link us to these case studies?
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  • Profile picture of the author Monitium
    It truly depends on the type of relationship you are building with your list. I still read emails from people that provide me value as I have mine read for the same reason. Those that are just trying to sell me something (unless it is something I requested in the past and showed some interest in) I delete or unsubscribe. Like any method, it all depends on how it is used as to how it will be responded to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lakezilla
    You know what they say "The Money is in the List" ...and always will be! An email list is a free form of online marketing.

    Used properly, it's one of the the best forms of advertising. Use it improperly (e.g. spamming) and it will be a complete waste of time. It's up to you!
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  • Profile picture of the author jaghananet
    Why are there so many bait threads on WF about 'bla bla is dead'? Nothing is dead, well except myspace.
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  • Profile picture of the author zicer
    I see many advantages in email marketing, BUT there is sooooo many emails coming to everyone's inbox and i guess many people like ME don't even read it any more, but sending to spam folder. So i gues taht it's not dead yet, BUT it's probably dying rapidly or your lists is full of subscribed emails which are not read.... Cmon people, it's so annoying to receive all this emails every single day, i would need 3 hours every day to read them! DO YOU READ THEM ALL???
    For me personally, good contents and social media marketing working much better... Just my 2 cents...
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  • Profile picture of the author Demetrius
    Personally I also feel the same about email list building. It is not that much effective now. People do not bother now a days to open an email with advertisement of a product or a site. You may get some traffic through it but the conversion is very low. There are various kind of spams are spreading through email everyday that is why it has lot it's appeal.
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  • Profile picture of the author zicer
    guess what! i know you could catch reader eyes by good subject to get him / her read, BUT when i open email in the morning and see 2-3 hundreds of emails, i am not reading even subjects any more,. SELECT ALL and sent to trash.... When i need any of your crap, i google for it
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    • Profile picture of the author jazzygelable
      I don't have a list yet but I'd like to say that I have unsubscribed to a lot of marketers who bait you with a free something and blast you with solo ads/swaps everyday! I only keep those who provide real value at least for me.

      Email list building is not dead. Last week, I emailed like two of those awesome marketers to ask for their affiliate link for some tools/services I'd like to get. They didn't even need to sell me something. I just wanted to give back and since I was signing up for some tools, I felt that I could just help them as they've helped me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anthony Gibson
    I still get excited when I get an email from Jeff Walker, and I've watched him do his evergreen plf launch three times this year lol. Dead? Hardly!

    Anthony
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Erickson
    Building buyers list better than having some crappy freebie seekers. List building is nowhere dead maybe it's getting somewhat really saturated now a days in the IM Field because we are all sharing the same list.

    But it lives a lot in every other niche I could think of.. Create quality products and sell for a reasonable price and you will build a good list in no time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zend
    It depend on a kind of traffic that you're looking for, sales come and goes as far as the quality of your email list. I have to say it again, its a QUALITY not a QUANTITY of your email list. Who need traffic when you have 50 percent targeted traffic? It makes my day worth it when I see even a little of targeted traffic, not just some random internet user from no-where-ville who can't understand your product at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author crimsonbook
    Consider opting-in to Matt Furey's list. He's widely know as the Email Copy King. Observe and learn how he delivers his emails and its content. Pure gold.
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  • Profile picture of the author hprice
    Value can be defined in many ways. Some people value a free ebook, some people value content, some people value paid software or a paid method that they can use to increase a certain aspect of their business that will bring more profits.

    Its all about the system you have put in place - from the initial sub to the first pitch to the first sale...

    You have to make a decision on what type of people you want on your list. Do you want buyers... Do you want clickers... Do you want people who enjoy reading content or being referred to content? Its up to you to determine what kind of list you are going to build and then implement the proper methods to build THAT type of list.

    Email is NOT dead...
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  • Profile picture of the author osail
    I guess quality vs Quantity is what is needed here.

    with any form of IM you need to do quality work with what your doing. It doesn't necessarily have to be time consuming or expensive. It just needs to be good.

    With the solo ad buying you need to find a good list to buy from. talk with the seller. They know their lists. What do they respond to? What kind of products do they buy? How often do they send email blasts? Or how often do they build their list and how?

    Take the extra time to do these things and your results will be much better. Or outsource it all if your lazy. IE find a list broker or manager.
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  • Profile picture of the author WalterWhite
    Good Morning my Friend...Who reads Marketing emails today except when they need to Confirm a Registration Link
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    • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
      Originally Posted by WalterWhite View Post

      Good Morning my Friend...Who reads Marketing emails today except when they need to Confirm a Registration Link
      Hi Walter,

      Here's a nice inforgraphic which will put that question to bed with some nice warm milk and a hug.

      It's a multichannel world today in marketing and even those channels which claim to be the "next email" such as FB, use email extensively to market themselves. The email is dead meme is hype driven by agendas. I would remind you that only a month or two after a top excec from FB proclaimed the coming death of email, FB attempted to launch their own email service.

      In the forseable future at least, it's going to be those who understand how to effectively adopt pull marketing and multi-channel approaches who will win. Smartphones will be the most influencial technology in all this. When technology travels, everything changes.

      To succeed today, you need a combined arms approach.

      Regards,
      jim
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      • Profile picture of the author mobileking
        I had to go straight to reply on this one

        I am sure this must have been mentioned but list building is quite possibly the Best Long Term method out there. If people are not making money with there list, its because there not building proper relationships with their list! This IS the most important thing.
        You cannot expect to just have a list, set up a Aweber account and link to a product and BAMN...theres the money. You have to offer great advice or information on whatever the niche is your in, you have to Build the trust by offering Great newsletters they will Benefit from.

        Then and Only Then! can you expect them to consider any products off of you.

        I have been building lists for a while now, I must admit it takes time. But its great to see repeat sales from the SAME customers.

        There are a few good courses out there on auto responding

        Good luck
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  • Profile picture of the author Resale Rights Ninja
    well it isn't dead you just have to do it right.
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Resale Rights Ninja View Post

      well it isn't dead you just have to do it right.
      The nail has been hit on the head right here.
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  • Profile picture of the author bionics
    It's definitely not dead -- it's just that as time passes, naturally there are more options that keep cropping up. (In the form of social media, new message boards, etc.)

    E-mail lists are a vital and necessary component for internet marketing, however. Why would you want to forgo a list of people that you have built that seem genuinely interested in your product? Seems more substantial than a simple "Like" on Facebook.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I don't want to make the common mistake of extrapolating
    my personal behavior to the entire internet crowd, but it's
    interesting that the first thing I do after booting my
    computer or checking my iphone is to read my email.

    If my practice is typical then I say that it will be a long time
    before email is dead.

    I remember when RSS was the new hot thing and many marketers
    were saying that it would replace email but it didn't happen.

    If you offer quality to your list then (beyond the medium you
    are using) your readers will anticipate you messages and
    remain loyal.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author carldavies33
    Email marketing is NOT dead. I'm building a list and make good money online with it. All you have to remember is keep in constant contact with your list and provide good content for your readers. Once in a while send a product out to your list you think they would like. To make good money with list building you need a large list. I have about 102,000 in my list. Should see a growth by the end of this year.
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  • Profile picture of the author mizesean
    Boy, I agree with some of the comments in this thread!

    2 thoughts:

    1) List building using fast action paid marketing like paid solo ads from the solo farmers - those leads are corrupted because they are on 50 - 100 lists anyway. You gotta go deeper and find leads that WANT to be on your list.

    2) You gotta offer real value to your list. I've averaged around $30 a subscriber in revenue for over 6 years now, and sure, things have changed lately, but people are still buying. But I don't sell $7 to my list either! I only use $7 for lead gen.

    Bonus: I think that's one key thing here - people get $7 marketing mixed up - it should ONLY be used for lead gen, NOT for making money.

    Just my 2 cents :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    People who say e-mail marketing is dead or dying haven't done the research and real-world testing to back it up. Jim's post (#82) is one of many graphics I've been watching this year. E-marketer releases a daily digest that every marketer should subscribe to and they've recently released a series of independent studies that show e-mail marketing is very much alive and kicking. In some market segments it's actually growing.

    With the increase in mobile devices people are reading their e-mails again, though you have to structure them differently than in the past. I've notice savvy marketers making their e-mail messages under 50 characters in length to accomodate this. I've also been testing with shorter e-mail messages and having them click on a link to read the content. So far, the results have been encouraging.

    I build lists in a wide variety of niches and have developed a forumula based on providing original, valuable content, and mixing it with very relevant offers. In some markets our list accounts for more than 90% of the overall profits once it's hit critical mass (the point at which your list continues to grow without you having to do anything other than provide content).

    If you're not building a list, you're literally leaving a lot of money on the table, especially in the long run (we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars).

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author yourop
    I think Email List Building Is Dead.

    For some. You can spend time building a huge list.
    But you need a way to stay in contact with your subscribers. And with email services being so picky, if you do not follow the rules you'll end up with the account shut down and a csv file.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by yourop View Post

      I think Email List Building Is Dead.

      For some. You can spend time building a huge list.
      But you need a way to stay in contact with your subscribers. And with email services being so picky, if you do not follow the rules you'll end up with the account shut down and a csv file.
      If you don't follow the rules .. no matter what you are doing ... it will come back to bite you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      Originally Posted by yourop View Post

      I think Email List Building Is Dead.

      For some. You can spend time building a huge list.
      But you need a way to stay in contact with your subscribers. And with email services being so picky, if you do not follow the rules you'll end up with the account shut down and a csv file.
      You must not have read post #82 and #90.

      By the way, I've been with Aweber and Getresponse for over ten years now, building a wide variety of lists and I've never been shut down; never even gotten a warning of any kind. Following the rules is very easy to do.

      RoD
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      "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
      - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
      Originally Posted by yourop View Post

      I think Email List Building Is Dead.

      For some. You can spend time building a huge list.
      But you need a way to stay in contact with your subscribers. And with email services being so picky, if you do not follow the rules you'll end up with the account shut down and a csv file.
      The reason we have rules (not to mention laws) is because 10 % of the population just doesn't understand or care about the golden rule - email market onto others as you would have them email market onto you.

      Regargds,
      jim
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  • Profile picture of the author Denise Harland
    This kind of thing is not new for me.
    I have heard "video marketing is dead", "SEO is dead", "article marketing is dead", "email marketing is dead", "everyone must be dead" -> this one is for joking only lol

    You can see everything in two sides, that's positive and the rest is negative.
    For example, you get a difficult task from your boss. It could be a challenge for you, or even it could be a burden for you. It's just a game of your mind.

    The best way to see whether it works or not, just keep trial and error. Unless you try it over and over, you will never know that it will work for you or not.

    The same method doesn't produce the same result for everyone.
    One knife will not be treated the same by a murderer, a chef, or even a child.

    It depends on how you use it, how you utilize it, and how you think about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    Building an email list will never die, it's worked for years and it will continue to work. Only when done properly. Give away a good freebie if you want people to sign up, give them value by sending good quality freebies, solid information and solve their problems then sell them something every now and again but be smart about it. Don't make it obvious you are just trying to extort money out of them, make them think you are doing them a favour by sharing it!
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    ATTENTION WARRIOR: INCREDIBLE NEW POST AT NICHEHACKS.COM
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    yes list building is dead, its really a complete waste of time it does not work lol

    Paul
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    FREE REPORT===>> 7 Reasons Why You Will probably Fail Online This year
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Buying crappy solo ads from people who don't mail their buyers lists or don't have buyers lists is dead.

    Not having the copywriting skills to turn a regular normal prospect into a customer is dead.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      Buying crappy solo ads from people who don't mail their buyers lists or don't have buyers lists is dead.

      Not having the copywriting skills to turn a regular normal prospect into a customer is dead.
      Choose not to listen to Jason about list building and your marketing could be dead.

      Fail to communicate and cause action through copy and email marketing will be dead..
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  • Profile picture of the author IMHypeless
    Those "the-sky-is-falling" people are so cute

    Few months ago, afer Panda and Penguin b!tchslapped a lot of people from 1st page, all you could hear is "SEO is dead", "niche marketing is dead"... Heck, many of my crappy mini-niche websites perished over night, but I knew that was my fault. Instead of crying, I turned to building legit, authority niche websites.


    As many mentioned before, some marketers will also use these scare tactics in order to sell their new super-secret loophole product. I remember one guru (won’t mention his name of course) who said the same thing about e-mail marketing (this was almost a year ago) and how Facebook fan pages are the next best thing. Of course, he had a product ready to guide me through every step of this amazing “new” IM system. Out of curiosity I checked his official fan page – it had a whooping 120 fans. Yeah…
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  • Profile picture of the author minisitetycoon
    I think it is the quality of the gifts, others point out being boring and they are right. Exciting FREE stuff is what gets your list and keeps your list. Being stand-outish and fun to your list. Getting a little crazy with research and sharing it.

    Also.. solo ads are a great way to infiltrate veteran online marketers lists. They DO work if your headline causes excitement and buzz. Email marketing usually doesn't work when your subject line is so-so or pretty good. It has to really turn heads.
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