Freelance Market Place and Modern slavery!

92 replies
I started my journey from a Freelance Marketplace. I still remember I earned only $50 after working for about 2 months for only one client.

I was new and she knew I needed a good feedback so she forced me to work a lot. I read a lot of blog post whee writers ( freelancers ) telling newbie to get good feedback from a client in anyway so that he can get more work.

After 4/5 years I still see the things did not change. Now it has become more complex as the composition is really high that ever. Sometimes I think it is some kind of modern slavery where people from developing country were thrown into a bad composition so that they can lower their rates to manage their food on their table.

Alas to say there is no minimum wage here. Can no we change this situation is any way? We can not ask the hungry people not to involve that bad composition to lower their rate, other than can not we show some humanity to to give them at least $100 for a website creations?

I saw a people asking a custom site for only $20. Creating a custom site with eCommerce can take at least 1 to 4 weeks. So is there something where peple of developing countries are being exploited?

It is high time to do something great, believe me, people in the developing country ( who are hungry, who are greater in population though they use very little resource ) are being exploited in different way and now I see another modern way.

Now I feel so bad. I am really frustrate. What about you?
Is there any organization that is working on this issue? If so I will be glad to join with them

P.S. I just described what I feel, I did not want to hurt anyone, I just wanted your kind attention about this issue.
#freelance #market #modern #place #slavery
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    1. It's not slavery. You set your prices. You choose which markets you can compete in. If you don't have the talent to compete at prices that would be acceptable? Then Freelance Writing isn't for you. It's nothing to feel bad about, but you need to be realistic with yourself.

    2. There probably isn't much we can do to change the market composition at the moment. People are going to buy $.01 per word and less content, and the sellers are going to sell at that rate because they think that's where the money is. You either get smart and get talented and move up, or you burn out and quit. Natural selection.

    3. Writers from developing countries seem to only be at a disadvantage if they allow themselves to be. It's all about marketing yourself. Of course, this is the one point of the three that I will admit to possibly being wrong on. I have the advantage of being born and raised in a first world country, so I don't have proper perspective on the situation.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014438].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Trust me, we writers from first world countries did not set those price points. It was writers from third world countries that did. Trust me when I say that we aren't happy with them either.

      However, they don't effect us if we don't compete in that price range. We don't target those customers who only want to pay that much and you don't have to either.

      Terra
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014499].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
      Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

      1. It's not slavery. You set your prices. You choose which markets you can compete in. If you don't have the talent to compete at prices that would be acceptable? Then Freelance Writing isn't for you. It's nothing to feel bad about, but you need to be realistic with yourself.

      2. There probably isn't much we can do to change the market composition at the moment. People are going to buy $.01 per word and less content, and the sellers are going to sell at that rate because they think that's where the money is. You either get smart and get talented and move up, or you burn out and quit. Natural selection.

      3. Writers from developing countries seem to only be at a disadvantage if they allow themselves to be. It's all about marketing yourself. Of course, this is the one point of the three that I will admit to possibly being wrong on. I have the advantage of being born and raised in a first world country, so I don't have proper perspective on the situation.

      I am a web developer and I am not a writer. I do have my own business plan to compete the market situation for my own...

      Here is some point where you will be able to find some fuel for thinking

      1. It is slavery, where you are forcing people to compete with each other. where you are always gainer!

      2. What do you mean by natural selection... You enjoy minimum wage where freelancers from developing country with compete with each other? I have some suggestions about minimum wage, according to salary.com a developer can earn $67.32 per hour, but for a developing country it can be minimum 6.732 per hour. I am not asking for equal rice but a minimum wage can save people. So called natural selection should be applied for all other than only for developing country.

      3. I am fully agree with you that writers from developed country will get higher value. And I think the quality of the work will be much higher.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014502].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
        Banned
        Before I address the rest of this: I found your use of the accusatory "you" both ignorant and insulting. As Terra stated, we didn't set these price points. Personally, I don't hire at these price points either. So your "accusations" aren't really working here. Word things better, or you might be liable to attract a troll .

        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        1. It is slavery, where you are forcing people to compete with each other. where you are always gainer!
        Slavery(noun): Condition in which one human being is owned by another.

        Nobody owns these workers. No one forced them into freelancing. They come and go as they please. I'm sure the rhetoric makes you feel like you are standing up for the oppressed; but let's not make this into something that it isn't.

        Freelancers can charge whatever they want. Believe it or not, the market isn't confined to the muddy puddle that you are aware of. There are great clean oceans to play in.

        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        2. What do you mean by natural selection... You enjoy minimum wage where freelancers from developing country with compete with each other? I have some suggestions about minimum wage, according to salary.com a developer can earn $67.32 per hour, but for a developing country it can be minimum 6.732 per hour. I am not asking for equal rice but a minimum wage can save people. So called natural selection should be applied for all other than only for developing country.
        It's evolution: those who adapt favorably survive (by finding a better market in this case), and the undesirables ($.01 per word market) dies out. It's almost a perfect example, except that fresh bait keeps getting funneled into the game. There is no minimum wage for freelancers, so your point doesn't work online. If you wanna talk about McDonalds you might have a point.

        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        3. I am fully agree with you that writers from developed country will get higher value. And I think the quality of the work will be much higher.
        Not what I was saying at all. I was saying that other workers are at a disadvantage because of perception. Some of the worst writers on this forum claim to be from the United States or other developed countries.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014557].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
          Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

          Before I address the rest of this: I found your use of the accusatory "you" both ignorant and insulting. As Terra stated, we didn't set these price points. Personally, I don't hire at these price points either. So your "accusations" aren't really working here. Word things better, or you might be liable to attract a troll .



          Slavery(noun): Condition in which one human being is owned by another.

          Nobody owns these workers. No one forced them into freelancing. They come and go as they please. I'm sure the rhetoric makes you feel like you are standing up for the oppressed; but let's not make this into something that it isn't.

          Freelancers can charge whatever they want. Believe it or not, the market isn't confined to the muddy puddle that you are aware of. There are great clean oceans to play in.



          It's evolution: those who adapt favorably survive (by finding a better market in this case), and the undesirables ($.01 per word market) dies out. It's almost a perfect example, except that fresh bait keeps getting funneled into the game. There is no minimum wage for freelancers, so your point doesn't work online. If you wanna talk about McDonalds you might have a point.



          Not what I was saying at all. I was saying that other workers are at a disadvantage because of perception. Some of the worst writers on this forum claim to be from the United States or other developed countries.

          First of all, I am not a very good writer and I used "you" here does not mean to attract you in any way I used it as a global word. You could not write those log reply if you did not this about the real situation.

          It took me a lot of time to write this post , you know I am not a writer and that is why it always take some extra effort to write something. My main goal was to encourage people here to set a minimum wage for developing country.

          What is going on here, in freelance marketplaces? My point is about forcing people in bad composition, they are working, why? because they need some money. They do not have any other way here. So they are working.

          I point is setting a minimum wage to prevent they exploiting themselves. Again, I am not asking equal price, as a web developer in my every talk I tell about web development, I will not work for 3 weeks for $20. But there are a lot of hungry people they do not have any other option other that earning that $20.

          If I do no call it slavery then I will call it blackmail.

          P.S. I am not a native and sometimes I can not express my emotion properly. I personally not a aggressive person at all.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014652].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
            Banned
            Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

            If I do no call it slavery then I will call it blackmail.
            Blackmail: use of secrets to compel: the act of forcing somebody to pay money or do something by threatening to reveal shameful or incriminating facts about him or her.

            I mean this in the nicest way possible: stop with the adjectives. They aren't working in your favor.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014736].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post


            It took me a lot of time to write this post , you know I am not a writer and that is why it always take some extra effort to write something. My main goal was to encourage people here to set a minimum wage for developing country.
            That is the thing wordpressmania, we cannot set a minimum wage for work. The reason pay is so low is because developing country workers drove the price down.

            Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

            What is going on here, in freelance marketplaces? My point is about forcing people in bad composition, they are working, why? because they need some money. They do not have any other way here. So they are working.

            I point is setting a minimum wage to prevent they exploiting themselves. Again, I am not asking equal price, as a web developer in my every talk I tell about web development, I will not work for 3 weeks for $20. But there are a lot of hungry people they do not have any other option other that earning that $20.
            And this right here, what you just said is why price points won't increase. The only viable way for that to happen is for the low ballers in pricing to up the ante, but as you've stated, they're hungry and it is the only way they can work. So most likely, they won't.

            I'm sorry, but that is just the economics of the thing.

            Perhaps you'd have better luck presenting your woes to them.

            Terra
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014750].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
              Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

              That is the thing wordpressmania, we cannot set a minimum wage for work. The reason pay is so low is because developing country workers drove the price down.



              And this right here, what you just said is why price points won't increase. The only viable way for that to happen is for the low ballers in pricing to up the ante, but as you've stated, they're hungry and it is the only way they can work. So most likely, they won't.

              I'm sorry, but that is just the economics of the thing.

              Perhaps you'd have better luck presenting your woes to them.

              Terra
              Hello Terra,
              I know that the economic deference is the main reason for lower rate. But why we are not setting up a minimum wage? I know some occupation might be confusing to set a minimum price but most of them can be possible.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014778].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
                Banned
                Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                But why we are not setting up a minimum wage?
                We're running businesses here. We don't have time to regulate the online industry to save the fools that ruined it in the first place. And once again: you set your own rates. You can charge whatever the heck you want!
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014784].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
                  Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

                  We're running businesses here. We don't have time to regulate the online industry to save the fools that ruined it in the first place. And once again: you set your own rates. You can charge whatever the heck you want!
                  Fools are forced to make their food on their table, they are somekid of animal those who only work hard to make their foods, there is no luxury only living.

                  There are a lot of people who use those fools as they know they do not have other option other that becoming a fool and working for a low price.

                  You are missing my point, why now we do something for those fools so that they can lead a little better life?
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014864].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                    You are missing my point, why now we do something for those fools so that they can lead a little better life?
                    Probably because there are more important things to deal with. Psychos are trying to get their hands on nukes. The governments of the world can't manage their money (which contributes to the problem these "fools" face in the first place). Statistically speaking, an African child is going to drop dead of starvation in the time it takes you to read this post.

                    Do you really think that we should put our time into lamenting your situation? Suzanne put it wonderfully: you played the game (lowballed for clients), and are bitching now that you aren't "getting what you're worth." You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Man up and fix your own problems.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014876].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                    Fools are forced to make their food on their table, they are somekid of animal those who only work hard to make their foods, there is no luxury only living.

                    There are a lot of people who use those fools as they know they do not have other option other that becoming a fool and working for a low price.

                    You are missing my point, why now we do something for those fools so that they can lead a little better life?
                    No, the point is, is that "those fools" put a sign on their forehead that said "Use Me!" when they started low balling everyone else with "slave wage" prices and offers.

                    No one can save a fool from himself because you just can't fix stupid.

                    Terra
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014883].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author TheWrightWords
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      No, the point is, is that "those fools" put a sign on their forehead that said "Use Me!" when they started low balling everyone else with "slave wage" prices and offers.

                      No one can save a fool from himself because you just can't fix stupid.

                      Terra
                      Totally OT, but "you can't fix stupid" is a pet saying of mine, love it!
                      Signature

                      Need top quality niche content to keep readers coming back for more? I'll provide 100% original, magazine quality content so you can focus on what you do best!
                      PM for samples and rates.

                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015087].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                    Fools are forced to make their food on their table, they are somekid of animal those who only work hard to make their foods, there is no luxury only living.

                    There are a lot of people who use those fools as they know they do not have other option other that becoming a fool and working for a low price.

                    You are missing my point, why now we do something for those fools so that they can lead a little better life?
                    Look friend ... sorry, but we've got mouths to feed and bills to pay. We run our businesses for the same reasons you do. Offshore providers made life a whole lot worse for designers, web developers, IT people ... you name it in the US. People who spent years in college only to find out when they graduated that the jobs they hoped to have were being shipped out of the country because the prices were advertised to be sooo much lower.

                    Now you seem to expect those that have struggled to earn a decent US wage and losing a lot of work to those that took those jobs to help ya'll out of that mess. Sorry to seem so self-involved, but I've got my own to take care.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014891].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
                    Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                    You are missing my point, why now we do something for those fools so that they can lead a little better life?
                    Because you were paid to do it?

                    I don't think we're missing your point.

                    You're saying that you aren't fairly compensated for your services.

                    That's something that has gone on since the beginning of time- its just that now it's becoming more prevalent as people/businesses outsource EVERYTHING.

                    But you should realize that what you're describing- the price wars at elance.com, odesk.com, etc. are hurting EVERYONE.

                    Americans, Europeans, Austrailians, Indians, Filipinos- NOBODY wants to work for $6 an hour if they know that they can actually earn $60 per hour.

                    But if you continue to use those kind of freelancing sites, that's the norm.

                    Basically what I'm getting to is this- you can complain about it, or you can look for ways to find better, higher-paying clients.

                    Your choice.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014933].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
                      Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

                      Because you were paid to do it?

                      I don't think we're missing your point.

                      You're saying that you aren't fairly compensated for your services.

                      That's something that has gone on since the beginning of time- its just that now it's becoming more prevalent as people/businesses outsource EVERYTHING.

                      But you should realize that what you're describing- the price wars at elance.com, odesk.com, etc. are hurting EVERYONE.

                      Americans, Europeans, Austrailians, Indians, Filipinos- NOBODY wants to work for $6 an hour if they know that they can actually earn $60 per hour.

                      But if you continue to use those kind of freelancing sites, that's the norm.

                      Basically what I'm getting to is this- you can complain about it, or you can look for ways to find better, higher-paying clients.

                      Your choice.
                      I want a awareness, I am shouting to have a minimum wage.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014956].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author 711gemstone
                        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                        I want a awareness, I am shouting to have a minimum wage.
                        Have you considered that they might be making a decent wage in their country.
                        Signature

                        Be Smart and Collaborate: Prevent "Tragedy of the Commons"
                        JA enterprises

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036425].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                Hello Terra,
                I know that the economic deference is the main reason for lower rate. But why we are not setting up a minimum wage? I know some occupation might be confusing to set a minimum price but most of them can be possible.
                Who exactly is "we"?

                I guess that would be a good place to start. I hope you're not talking about an internet governing entity. That would be like opening up Pandora's box.

                We can set up our own minimum price range in our own business. We just determine what we will not work for any less than, and then stick to our guns about it. That is what I meant when I said we target higher paying customers, a completely different market.

                Terra
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014819].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Who exactly is "we"?

                  I guess that would be a good place to start. I hope you're not talking about an internet government entity. That would be like opening up Pandora's box.

                  We can set up our own minimum price range in our own business. We just determine what we will not work for any less than, and then stick to our guns about it. That is what I meant when I said we target higher paying customers, a completely different market.

                  Terra

                  Hello Terra,
                  Within this thread, I just wanted to encourage people to feel about the developing country. I believe, time will change everything. I found that most of the people here does not like them. But I will be with them. Hopefully there will be more people with them.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014905].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

                Hello Terra,
                I know that the economic deference is the main reason for lower rate. But why we are not setting up a minimum wage? I know some occupation might be confusing to set a minimum price but most of them can be possible.
                WE .. who? You expect others to collaborate with you to raise your prices to what you should have been charging to begin with? Sorry, you created the mess you're in. Deal with it.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014830].message }}
                • If you are working for peanuts , it just means you have poor business skills.
                  If you need a middle man to freelance you could also do 9-5 job ...
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014870].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author edpudol1973
                    Originally Posted by smallbusinesstoolkit View Post

                    If you are working for peanuts , it just means you have poor business skills.
                    If need middle man to freelance you could also do 9-5 job ...
                    Not at all times, there are freelancer out there who are charging very cheap but they are providing better result than those charging hundreds or thousand.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014882].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by edpudol1973 View Post

                      Not at all times, there are freelancer out there who are charging very cheap but they are providing better result than those charging hundreds or thousand.
                      Exactly: poor business skills. That's not the same thing as being untalented.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014893].message }}
                    • Originally Posted by edpudol1973 View Post

                      Not at all times, there are freelancer out there who are charging very cheap but they are providing better result than those charging hundreds or thousand.

                      yes , that`s exactly what I call poor business skills
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014932].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        I am a web developer and I am not a writer. I do have my own business plan to compete the market situation for my own...

        Here is some point where you will be able to find some fuel for thinking

        1. It is slavery, where you are forcing people to compete with each other. where you are always gainer!

        2. What do you mean by natural selection... You enjoy minimum wage where freelancers from developing country with compete with each other? I have some suggestions about minimum wage, according to salary.com a developer can earn $67.32 per hour, but for a developing country it can be minimum 6.732 per hour. I am not asking for equal rice but a minimum wage can save people. So called natural selection should be applied for all other than only for developing country.

        3. I am fully agree with you that writers from developed country will get higher value. And I think the quality of the work will be much higher.
        Nobody is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. Offshore providers set the price and set the bar nearly to the ground. Now they're screaming about slave labor. They drove most of the US providers off of the freelance boards with their lowball bidding and degrading of the marketplace.

        I've got news for you. You'd lose the US business you've enjoyed at US provider's expense because if you raise the price, the US companies will come back home. Price was and is the ONLY advantage that offshore providers had/have to offer.

        Offshore providers wanted to win win win at any price. Now they have to live with it.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014715].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        1. It is slavery, where you are forcing people to compete
        Nobody is forcing you to do anything. I went to freelance sites and said "I charge three cents a word, and that's $15 an article, so if you don't want to pay that you can go to hell." I got clients. Nobody makes you bid on stupid cheap jobs with crappy cheap clients. If you don't like it, stop doing it.

        2. What do you mean by natural selection... You enjoy minimum wage
        Freelancers aren't subject to minimum wage. We can work for ten cents an hour if we want. There is no law against it.

        a minimum wage can save people. So called natural selection should be applied for all other than only for developing country.
        Most people in the developed world who have taken an economics class tend to think there should never be a minimum wage anywhere ever.

        There are two reasons you do not get paid what you want for what you do.

        1. What you do is not worth what you want to be paid.

        2. The people who pay you do not want to pay that much.

        Once you fix #1, and you deserve to be paid what you want, go fix #2 by finding people who will pay it.

        With a minimum wage, anyone who hasn't fixed #1 cannot have a job.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014962].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        It is slavery, where you are forcing people to compete with each other.
        Well cry me a river. Get off the "Freelance Market Place" (gee, didn't the name tell you anything) and go find the communist market place where everyone gets paid the same.

        I guess everyone in a capitalist country who has to "compete" is a slave owner. Not sure who they own, except the right to compete against others. Your post is an insult to slaves - now and in the past.

        Which brings me to your major point about a minimum wage, who sets the amount and how much?

        I propose one US penny for 100 hours of work.

        The Internet is a brutal marketplace.

        Purely online shops without any overhead have cost advantages over bricks and mortar stores. If you haven't noticed, the net has upended a lot of businesses and industries.

        Between online sellers someone in a high cost location like California may be competing to sell the same product against someone in a lost cost location like China.

        But then, oops, costs rise in China and work moves to Vietnam.

        So what happens is someone selling a widget from Vietnam can price it for a $1 profit. That $1 is a week of wages. But to the California seller $1 profit means they are out of business.

        Then you know what happens? Someone sells the widget for no profit, or as a loss leader, because they have a backend and view it as buying a customer.

        If you don't like the global competition for the services you are offering, then offer something else. You picked your market so deal with it. Go clean bathrooms so you can avoid Internet competition. But even there I'm betting you will find someone competing against you.

        .
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7019613].message }}
    • Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post


      3. Writers from developing countries seem to only be at a disadvantage if they allow themselves to be. It's all about marketing yourself. Of course, this is the one point of the three that I will admit to possibly being wrong on. I have the advantage of being born and raised in a first world country, so I don't have proper perspective on the situation.
      AMEN.

      I have seen tons of writers on elance and odesk from India and the Phillippines charging 40 dollars an hour and more. And these guys are getting TONS of hours at their going rates. Check these guys out:

      https://www.odesk.com/users/Technica...d5e0?sid=12001

      https://www.elance.com/s/committed/1...RyYW5zbGF0aW9u

      https://www.odesk.com/o/profiles/use...e5723bc88c373/

      If those are slave wages, send me to the plantation.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036125].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author edpudol1973
    The number one reason why many new comer in internet marketing that from developing country seem to be exploited if we call that exploited is that they are not aware of how much should they charge for their service.

    Most of them believes that if they will earn much more than what they can earn if they get a day job that is good for them.

    Educating the newbie will be the solution
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014630].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
      Originally Posted by edpudol1973 View Post

      The number one reason why many new comer in internet marketing that from developing country seem to be exploited if we call that exploited is that they are not aware of how much should they charge for their service.

      Most of them believes that if they will earn much more than what they can earn if they get a day job that is good for them.

      Educating the newbie will be the solution
      Go to Elance or Odesk, you will see the jobs with asking something like this....

      Bidder with more tha 2USD/Hour will be removed
      or
      Asking more than 50 will not get the job.
      or,
      After working on this project you will get a lot of works ( not really they do have a lot of works )
      or
      I am in a tight budget

      So my point is, this is leading people to a bad composition, is not it?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014693].message }}
    • To the OP, "slavery" in this context is such a powerful word that could most likely be interpreted out of context nine ways to Sunday. Let's not get too excited with this now, shall we?

      It's about your time and how you value it, and how buyers value their time and the time of others who work with them...

      If a buyer is from the US or anywhere for that matter and wants a custom Wordpress theme designed and integrated with proprietary PHP functionalities for $20, and if you value your Wordpress dev't, graphics design and PHP programming time at $10/hour, then analyze if you can complete the buyer's project in 2 hours or so (less than 2 hours would be good for you). If you can't accommodate this, then move on, since you'll just be wasting away your $10/hour relentlessly thinking and being absurdly frustrated about this situation. It's a free market economy, and as a free market fundamentalist, to each his or her own, so, lining this up in context and perspective:

      =>> It's up to you, especially as a freelancer where you get to review project requirements before accepting offerss. Seems like the OP doesn't have a clearly defined value of his or her time doing projects for others by using his or her specialized skills, knowledge and expertise. Here's an example:

      • My brother in law is a freelance factory machine electronic board technician, and he's the only one with this profession out of more than 500 or so people I know. He contacts factories and offers his services to fix their malfunctioning or inoperable factory equipment with electronic circuit boards, which they wouldn't be able to send to the manufacturer to get it fixed and get it back again, properly installed, in say 30 days or so, and there aren't any other technicians here who can do this that they (almost all factories here) know of. In one provincial city alone here in the Philippines, the average number of medium to large-scale factories with these electronic board-integrated machines is around 50 or so...

      He now wants to establish a business that provides this service. Why? I suggested him to calculate the revenues that the company loses due to their malfunctioning or inoperable factory machines. Say a cement production company produces 2000 sacks of cement per day. Because of factory machine issues, they now produce 1000 sacks per day, but still pay the same overheads for manpower resources. Say they earn net profits worth $20 per sack, so they're losing $20K per day, or $400K per 20-month, in which a 30-day manufacturer repair guarantee is the only thing they're holding on. In comes my brother in law, with these prices:

      =>> 3-Day Turnaround = $20000
      =>> 10-Day Turnaround = $15000
      = 20-Day Turnaround = $10000

      Now, he's a freelancer, since he's running a business, and he isn't slaving away his time, because he set those prices, based on what a company can potentially lose when they don't get their equipment fixed right away, on average, among other factors like market competition and how he values his time and specialized skills, knowledge and expertise...

      Slavery doesn't have options. It doesn't require market analysis. There just needs to be someone or some group that can impose a sense of authority, power and fear over others, which can overwhelm someone to do something he or she doesn't want to do, or someone who doesn't have the required experience and knowledge to decide what's best for his or her welfare (child labor or tricking people with mental disabilities to do things they surely wouldn't want to do if they didn't have those mental disabilities) in doing things that they don't want to do, for only the sole benefit of the slave drivers and for the detrimental welfare of the people ("slaves") doing those things...
      Signature

      Watch My Current R&D Project in Action: Wearable 3D Perception Device for the Blind
      • Please Support My Project at PATREON

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7037120].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I made a good living on Elance until the offshore designers started doing logos for $20 and websites for peanuts. Sorry, but offshore providers wanted to compete on price and they are solely responsible for driving the prices down to nothing.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014649].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I made a good living on Elance until the offshore designers started doing logos for $20 and websites for peanuts. Sorry, but offshore providers wanted to compete on price and they are solely responsible for driving the prices down to nothing.
      If yo do google, you will find a lot of tutorials how to hire a developer or designers for oDesk or Elance, those writes are telling that you can get a logo for $20, those articles are telling people that you can force a designer or developer of developing country to do something for a lower price.

      It is not fair. Someone find some people who are hungry, then he ask them, I will feed one of you who will be most obedient. Then you will get all of them trying to get some favor from you. I think it is the reality and we are forcing them to a bad competition.

      Today one of my friend told me that someone invited 37 people to submit a PSD mockup and he will select one people among the submitted art work. I do not know how to express m emotion, but I feel there is something not fair.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014744].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author fin
        I just bought a logo for $25.

        I doubt it took someone longer than an hour to design. I don't feel bad about paying that, because in cheap countries that's a lot. About 2x more than the minimum wage in western countries.

        But I do understand what you're saying. There will be people who exploit people. I would only say the ones exploiting people are the ones asking someone to work for less than minimum wage.

        If they want more than that they should be able to compete.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014763].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        If yo do google, you will find a lot of tutorials how to hire a developer or designers for oDesk or Elance, those writes are telling that you can get a logo for $20, those articles are telling people that you can force a designer or developer of developing country to do something for a lower price.

        It is not fair. Someone find some people who are hungry, then he ask them, I will feed one of you who will be most obedient. Then you will get all of them trying to get some favor from you. I think it is the reality and we are forcing them to a bad competition.

        Today one of my friend told me that someone invited 37 people to submit a PSD mockup and he will select one people among the submitted art work. I do not know how to express m emotion, but I feel there is something not fair.
        You're such a victim. People force you to do stuff you don't want to do at a price you don't want to do it for. Give me a break. You set your prices. Period.

        I've never done a logo for $20. While the offshore providers were bidding $20 for logos, I was winning logo projects at $350 and throw in another $200 for the stationery design.

        Of course people are going to tell other people that offshore providers will work for peanuts ... because they do. No one held a gun to their head. The market would bear much more reasonable prices, but you all got it all figured out. Lowball and win all the projects. Drive everyone else out of the marketplace. Well, how's that working for ya?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014795].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          You're such a victim. People force you to do stuff you don't want to do at a price you don't want to do it for. Give me a break. You set your prices. Period.

          I've never done a logo for $20. While the offshore providers were bidding $20 for logos, I was winning logo projects at $350 and throw in another $200 for the stationery design.

          Of course people are going to tell other people that offshore providers will work for peanuts ... because they do. No one held a gun to their head. The market would bear much more reasonable prices, but you all got it all figured out. Lowball and win all the projects. Drive everyone else out of the marketplace. Well, how's that working for ya?
          You are missing my point, Is there any necessity to set a minimum price for freelancers by low?

          Oh, I am not a victim and I want to improve the overall situation where people will get a minimum wage, I did not tell ever that I can not set my own rate. Surely I can and I do.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014989].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
            Banned
            Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

            You are missing my point, Is there any necessity to set a minimum price for freelancers by low?

            Oh, I am not a victim and I want to improve the overall situation where people will get a minimum wage, I did not tell ever that I can not set my own rate. Surely I can and I do.
            Let's see if this works:

            There is no need to set a minimum wage. You get to charge whatever you want already.

            /thread
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014995].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

              Let's see if this works:

              There is no need to set a minimum wage. You get to charge whatever you want already.

              /thread
              Ouch Joe! Your shouting hurt my eyes. :p

              Terra
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015006].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
                Banned
                Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                Ouch Joe! Your shouting hurt my eyes. :p

                Terra
                Sorry Terra.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015035].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

            You are missing my point, Is there any necessity to set a minimum price for freelancers by low?

            Oh, I am not a victim and I want to improve the overall situation where people will get a minimum wage, I did not tell ever that I can not set my own rate. Surely I can and I do.
            Then do it. Don't try to recruit those that have been harmed by your low balling... good markets that have been destroyed by your lowballing. I don't work for minimum wage. If that's what you want, go for it, but don't expect too many people to be real empathetic about a situation you created on your own.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015146].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author shane_k
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        If yo do google, you will find a lot of tutorials how to hire a developer or designers for oDesk or Elance, those writes are telling that you can get a logo for $20, those articles are telling people that you can force a designer or developer of developing country to do something for a lower price.
        Well if you read what sbucciarel wrote then you would realize that it is people in developing companies who started this.

        If they want more money then they need to stop accepting so little.


        It is not fair.
        I know that you feel it is not fair, but for you to try equate this with slavery is ridiculous.

        People who were slaves had no choice. If they didn't do what they were told they were killed.

        You have a choice. You can choose to work for those prices or not.

        Others have a choice also. Sure some of them might be hungry, but if they aren't able to feed themselves with the money that they are getting from freelancing, then they either need to start asking for more money and not accept anything less, and/or find some other way to make money to put food on their table.


        Someone find some people who are hungry, then he ask them, I will feed one of you who will be most obedient. Then you will get all of them trying to get some favor from you. I think it is the reality and we are forcing them to a bad competition.
        If someone is doing this then they are an a$$hole, degenerate loser who needs serious help.

        But 99.9% of the people out there who are looking to hire freelancers are NOT looking to find hungry people and take advantage of them.

        This kind of rationalization just allows you to continue to play the victim.


        Today one of my friend told me that someone invited 37 people to submit a PSD mockup and he will select one people among the submitted art work. I do not know how to express m emotion, but I feel there is something not fair.
        The reason they are doing this is so they can see who does a good job. No one wants to hire someone who does a crappy job.

        This has nothing to do with slavery, or blackmail, or anything like that at all. It is about finding someone who does a good job, nothing more and nothing less.

        Instead of looking for why things aren't fair, start looking inside of yourself, at your knowledge, your skills, what you can provide, what you can do, what your strengths are, and your own beliefs about life and the world, and make the decision for yourself that you aren't going to except less that a certain amount. Why? Not because you want that certain amount of money, but because that is what you are worth.

        And you know what, maybe you are looking at a market right in front of you. You could become a motivational speaker in your own country empowering your own poeple helping them realize that they are worth more than what they are getting.

        However, it all starts within your own mind.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014894].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    Because there is nothing we can do. The "fools" must help themselves. They need to raise their prices, learn new and better skills, and continue to attract higher paying clients by doing more effective marketing.

    No international organization exists that can set a minimum wage standard for freelancers. And even if it were possible there would be someone, somewhere that would try to moonshine lower prices. That's just the way it works.

    Rose
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7014890].message }}
  • I find it interesting that in all this talk of slavery, no mention was made of the difference in cost of living between developing countries and first world countries.

    Carry on...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015050].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TheWrightWords
    I think it is good that freelancing has no minimum! Why? Because a minimum implies a range...which implies a maximum I prefer setting my own rates, and when people stop buying, I'll consider lowering them. Til then, not a chance.
    Also, if you take only one thing from this thread -- Buyers who pay rational, reasonable rates will treat you much, much better than the people you've been dealing with. They are parting with a decent amount of cash because they respect what you do -- and in most cases they are a much better class of client.
    Signature

    Need top quality niche content to keep readers coming back for more? I'll provide 100% original, magazine quality content so you can focus on what you do best!
    PM for samples and rates.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015113].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    This is simply the reality of the global marketplace. There's no point in trying to assign blame, such as between "first worlders" and "third worlders." I can't blame people from developing countries who underprice the competition -that's the only way they can compete. Nor can I blame people (from any country) for hiring those with the lowest prices if they have limited budgets and care more about price than quality. The latter isn't meant as a putdown -some people are in situations where they must calculate things this way.

    Of course, there's more to it than that. As others have said, quality comes into the picture as well. No matter what type of service you're offering, you can (hopefully) eventually reach a level where you don't have to charge bottom dollar. Then these issues become moot as you develop your own customer base and don't have to rely on those seeking the cheapest labor.
    Signature
    Content Writing, Ghostwriting, eBooks, editing, research.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015124].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
    Everyone on here is running their own business.

    When running your own business you get to decide what price to put on your products.

    Those people who can't afford to feed their families have set their own price, no-one held a gun to their head to work for peanuts. They chose to work for cheap.

    If your countrymen decided to sell their products at a stupidly low price, whose fault is that?

    You are demanding a minimum wage - who is going to police that?

    If the reason for this thread is your dissatisfaction with your own income - do something about it.

    If it is about you helping others to increase their income - show them how (good luck with that...).

    You want to change the world - good luck with that too.
    Signature

    Never Mistake Activity for Accomplishment

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015131].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Yamamedia
    It is the free market. If you dont like the offer dont take it.
    Signature

    Get articles starting at only only .50 cents per 100 words
    http://ezonlinewriter.com/

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015141].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author AbdullahKaragoz
    @Wordpressmania:

    1) The global world isn't based on plan economy, it's based on free market economy. So we can't adjust the prices.

    2) There are not only competition between the employees in freelance sites, but also competition between the employers. It's about demand and supply. Not all the employers are looking for the cheapest solution, because they know that "you get what you pay for".

    3) There are a lot of people who try to exploit people. You should not be fool, and you should bid on the jobs that offer good wages, and stay away from ones that offer to suck you. I hope in freelance sites there are a lot of people who are realistic and want to pay good wages, as there are **** people who try do exploit others.

    4) Guides online on "how to hire someone in Odesk" or "how to find jobs on Odesk" can be misleading, but experienced people find that out shortly.

    The only way to "work your value up" isn't just by being a slave for others to get some good feedback. You can take tests in Odesk, and you can build a porthofolio (in your case, building some nice Wordpress sites) to show the employer that you can your work. Experienced employers know that the feedback isn't the only thing to look for when hiring.

    5) People in Somalia, they have no internet, they can't get into Freelance sites. They can't get jobs, there's lack of food and water in there. And people DIE by hunger in Somalia.

    What you are talking about, is about an unfair world economics. 20 % of world population eat 80 % of the resources, and vice versa. You may ask "why USA is a rich country, but Somalia is poor?". The answer may be a looong history.

    I think we should all work to make the world a better and fair planet.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015226].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    What is the normal average pay of someone in your country per week with your skills.

    What I mean is this:

    If you were to get hired by a company in your country, what would you get paid?

    This is the rate that most people who outsource from other countries into your country are wanting to pay. They want labor for as cheap as possible.

    I believe that they could pay more than the local economy provides, but only after trust is built, reliability, faithfulness, etc....

    Thankfulness is also a great quality to have.

    Just my opinion.
    Signature
    Need Custom Graphics Work? - Message Me For A Design Quote!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015269].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jwrbusiness
      Well, I think things will get better for you. I am interested in your services so get in touch.

      John
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7016419].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author bugzy
      Those who wants to earn quick money online and will get a freelance job even if they don't have expertise on the chosen category is what is killing this business.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034478].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by bugzy View Post

        Those who wants to earn quick money online and will get a freelance job even if they don't have expertise on the chosen category is what is killing this business.
        Quite true. Elance was a good freelancing board for both US and offshore providers at one time. But that wasn't good enough for the offshore providers. They wanted it to be their own little play pen. They got the minimum bid lowered to $20 so that they could bid even more ridiculous prices for projects.

        They put US in their location data, which was a complete lie and buyers soon found that out when they barely spoke any English and were not working in anything close to the same time zone as they were. I pitched a fit about bogus US locations and that was changed.

        They degraded that marketplace and many of the US providers dumped Elance. Just wasn't worth competing with a bunch of fools who worked for peanuts. Much of the work in their portfolios was stolen, so they couldn't actually produce that themselves. Speaking barely any English, they ripped off my proposals to submit in their own names. Towards the end, I put some nonsense in them, knowing that they didn't actually care what the proposal said, or if it actually addressed the needs of the project. They just wanted great sounding English proposals from people with a good reputation on the board.

        ... and now, somehow ... everyone is taking advantage of the very people responsible for the miserable state of freelance boards. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034498].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author koolphoto
      I thought it funny when I went to school and took an economic course. I thought it was something I would never need. Was I wrong.

      I learned about supply, demand and scarcity in the course. The more supply the less demand. Less demand leads to lower prices.

      If more freelancers refused to work for lower pay then supply would drop, demand would increase and fees would have to go up.

      Blame your fellow freelancers and not the people who buy.
      Signature

      My name is Ken Katz and I am a Web Designer and Photographer. My motto: "If you really want to do something, you'll find a way. If you don't, you'll find an excuse." -Jim Rohn

      Celebrity Portrait Photgapher - My Photography Portfolio.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034576].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    You can refuse unfair monetary offers, no?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015330].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author elperuanito
    I come from the 'first world' and quickly realised that finding my own business online and doing freelance work offline would be long-term solution for me. I can still get decent freelance rates offline for web dev work - - I looked at sites like Elance and saw that people were willing to work for nothing. That's the key. They are willing to do it.

    As mentioned here, the freelancers set the prices. At the moment I don't have a need for online freelance work, but if I do I will set competitive rates. Hopefully the fact that English is basically my first language, my experience and quality of work will get me some clients. You have to set prices you are happy working for.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015404].message }}
  • I'm completely in disaccord with your words, Wordpress Mania.
    Freelance websites are like any other things in the world, you offer yourself for the price you desire. How many times you can buy quality products for a price (expensive) or cheap products with low quality for another price (cheaper)?

    Many newbies are going to outsource articles to asian people to save money, but what they get in exchange? In 99 cases on 100 it's only rubbish.
    And when you get experienced you know the real price of a cool article.

    The same happens for any website building or SEO service, and if you find what I call a "slave-driver", you can always close the project and refund the buyer sending him a message.

    So freelance is not slavery as well as your tasks can get the price they really deserve.

    See you soon,
    Alessandro Zamboni
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015501].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    Wordpressmania, I'm not sure where you live but if you want an awesome tip on how to increase your income, one you can pass on to others in your country, here it is.

    There are brilliant, talented and highly successful people on this forum from just about every country. If not the same country as yours, then almost certainly a country with very similar socio-economic status, exchange rates, and typical work rates on freelance sites.

    Take a look in the Warriors For Hire room here, and in the Warrior Special Offer forum.

    I guarantee you will see in there someone not too different from yourself, and from others with a freelance marketplace background, who are tearing it up.

    Getting great pay freelancing, and/or great pay putting their skills to work creating products.

    The bottom line is that for any of us, no matter where we live, we have to realize and accept that no-one is coming to help us.

    We have to help ourselves because nobody else is going to do it.

    Have a look around this forum and I guarantee you'll find real live examples of people just like you who are doing just that.

    Take inspiration from them, starting following in their footsteps, and you'll start to see the increase in living standards you're looking form.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7015503].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author OutsourceFactor
    Wow, I can see why this thread is heating up. The way I see it, there are advantages and disadvantages to getting a minimum wage. Personally, I like the flexibility of not being under it but that's just me.

    About lowballing, ditto to everyone who says don't work for peanuts. If you don't like the deal or job posting on a marketplace and feel that it's a very unfair rate then why go for it? There are a lot of freelance marketplaces (trust me, I know) that offer something better so go there and then market your skills there. Try Warriors for Hire or Outsource Factor. My site kind of has the minimum wage thing going but working freelancers to the bone is not happening here.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7016323].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Zend
    Well, each time I see a very low salary wages post in freelance site, I just simply get out from there. I know my price and I take pride on it. Being in desperate situation doesn't mean we have to do any job for any price. Slavery is common in this era, but I blame the worker, why they accept it? It is too naive to do other people's sh*t with very little appreciation. You are the boss, not some anonymous client from a developed country.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7016565].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    Well done OP for creating a buzz-worthy thread with a bit of troll bait.

    Seriously though, freelance marketplaces do not equate to modern slavery. Slaves didn't have a choice and weren't paid, whatever way you look at it, you have both.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7016577].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Adie
    Everyone of us has our choices. It's up to you to take projects and accept low payment. No one forces no one to do the job if someone don't want to do it.

    Slaves in real world doesn't have any option. As on online service provider, you have all the options. Complaining does not change the whole freelancing industry.
    Signature



    Moderator's Note: You're only allowed to put your own products or sites in your signature.

    Signature edited.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7016758].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author FirstSocialApps
    I cant speak for everyone but I have made quite a bit on sites like Elance / Vworker etc. I have found that if you have great feedback and do good work people will pay for the quality you provide. I have consistently made around $3000 per month without much effort and can make more if I really work hard.

    By the way Im a programmer not a designer .. IDK if that makes a difference.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7016902].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I want a awareness, I am shouting to have a minimum wage.
      You want awareness. They want food. Which demand do you think will be more persuasive?

      This brings up a conversation I have on a fairly regular basis with some of my friends. They scream that the entire world should boycott Walmart, because they're paying such lousy wages to people in the "third world." To which my response is, "Yeah. Let's put those third-worlders out of work. That'll really help them live better."

      Free exchange and mobility, whether digital or physical, is extracting a price from everyone who used to benefit from more limited options. It acts as a balancing force, pushing labor costs/wages closer to the global average across the board. That sucks for people who live in countries with higher costs of living, but it's also made life a lot better for people in areas where money goes a lot farther.

      It's the constant struggle to get the most you can for as little as possible. The leverage will go away only when the system reaches a balance where each skill level demands similar wages in every labor market. That's not likely to happen in less than two decades.

      If you want to push wages up, get people to take pride in their work, and learn to do it well. As an example, people will only pay so much for the kind of barely literate writing that comes from trying to create content on topics about which you know nothing, in languages you barely speak.

      Know where most of the copyright issues we deal with here come from? Indian programmers taking source code from commercial products to complete work they're being underpaid for. The programmers are too unconcerned to even properly hide the source, and the people paying them are too clueless to even try to see if what they're getting is original work.

      Also, if you're going to sell to an English-speaking market, learning to speak English properly will automatically increase your earning power. Yes, your English is far better than my any-other-language. Still, like most language groups, we tend to associate poor English with poor thinking. It's illogical, it's stupid, and it's totally natural in countries with a strong history of mono-linguistic populations.

      Note that the vocabulary isn't what triggers that prejudice. It's the syntax. The way sentences are structured. That varies from language to language, so what makes perfect sense to you may be all out of order to someone who speaks another language as their primary.

      There. Some practical suggestions for things you can do something about, even if only in your personal circle of acquaintances. Help who you can, where you are.

      That's how movements get started.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7017182].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7017670].message }}
    • Excellent post!

      OT, but that dang "dare to succeed button" is just awesome!

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      It seems to me that you want the luxury and earnings potential of being self-employed, (which is what freelancers are), but with the security of employee protection, i.e.; minimum wage. What's next? Maybe the minimum wage should include a mandatory tax paid by buyers for health insurance and retirement benefits?

      ..................
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7018925].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 4DayWeekend
    You can look at this situation as a negative (which appears to be what you're doing) or flip it into a positive.

    The Internet is a worldwide marketplace and the fact is some countries cost significantly less to live in that others. So if you're like me and from a country with high living costs (UK here) providing services can sting you.

    Especially if you're using freelance sites because the buyers are internet savvy and know how cheaply they can get quality service Online.

    The key to flipping this in your favor is to actually step out of the office and meet real brick and mortar businesses face to face to offer services. They aren't as Internet savvy so don't know about freelance sites and prefer to deal with someone that can meet up with in the coffee shop... Offer them the services and they will pay the going rate in your country.

    Then outsource the services to the guys who are working for peanuts on the freelance websites and simply project manage the work. You're no longer trading your time for money, can take on multiple projects at once and can charge a significant mark up price.

    Let others do the work but you reap the rewards. The tough part is going out, networking and meeting clients. But trust me, there are still people out there with 'traditional' values who will pay good money for quality work. But you're not going to find them if you're a just a vendor on ODesk...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7018013].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mousumi
    The problem is with the Freelancers and not the Buyers. I have been freelancing for the past 4 years and must say I'm earning far better than most of full time working people (Writers , Web designers and SEO/PPC/SEM professionals) in my country.

    Once you are on Odesk, Elance, Guru or Freelancer, you have to compete with thousands of Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Filipino and Indian professionals. For example, you are quite likely to come across a guy who calls himself a PPC professional and asks for just $3 an hour. I have seen people asking for as low as $0.50 per hour. The real problem with them and not with the buyers.

    As far as I am concerned, I have never worked below $8 an hour. The amount can still look alarmingly low but considering the cost of living in India it is a good deal

    Freelancing is not slavery...No one compels you to be a slave.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7018109].message }}
  • yeah freelancing can suck. That is how I started out and I hated it. I would end up working for 2 bucks and hour or even free and then have to deal with clients who would complain I was gouging them - lol - I couldn't get out of doing that fast enough. Avoid it at all cost or at least charge a fortune for what you do - because you are worth it dammit!
    Signature

    PM Me Now!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7019878].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author morg2k2
      Well, First of all i am not from 1st or 3rd world country.... i´ll call it a 2nd world

      But in this case what matters is not the minimum Wage, in this case what matter really is the mindset of this kind of designers / IT / etc people they define the price, so if there someone guilty for their crap incomes are themselves.

      I can tell you this, once i was thinking to start my IT Career in Odesk (since its quite Big) but when i started to see Sys Admin services offered at $2-$3 per hour when in my 2nd class country is near $50 /hour.... hmmmmm i think to myself keep it

      So i believe there is no need to create a rule about wages, prices, costs, etc, people needs to understand how much is the price of his own work.... $20 for 2 months is fair? if someone offer that rate or accept an offer.... sure its fair for that person.

      Now telling that selling at Hiper Low price is the way to achieve success.... sincerely i doubt it, quality has a price and always will have it.

      I can give you an example, 1 year ago i had started to offer some SEO services in Ebay, the price was lower then the average (lets say 10-15% lower), after my customers liked my services i can say that i have doubled and in some cases tripled my price and my customers increased . I had a nice income and a huge amount of competition from 3rd world countries, because quality has a price.

      For last there is the Quality chapter.... many people of 3rd world countries does not have a good quality of service and support. In webdesign for ex. i have tested a few workers not at that low rate but i can call it cheap and the result was Awful... So personally i do prefer to pay to a Freelancer that can proof to me is high quality of work.

      So before trying to start a war you need to do your homework because in this world there is not only good and bad guys as you seem to believe.

      Regards,
      Morg
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7020086].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    Stab

    There, I killed the thread. We're just repeating ourselves and the OP is gone anyways.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7020147].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SurrealPSD
    Im so glad I specialise in high-end photo manipulation.. It's a world apart from logo design, and there's only a handful of freaks that can do it really well. Outsource that one!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7020222].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by SurrealPSD View Post

      Im so glad I specialise in high-end photo manipulation.. It's a world apart from logo design, and there's only a handful of freaks that can do it really well. Outsource that one!
      That's the whole thing in a nutshell. Do something that very few people (or no one else) is willing to learn/master. Charge what you're worth. Enjoy the monies.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7020231].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author SurrealPSD
        hehe, cheers mate

        Even so.. I'd be a lot happier selling info products, after 15 years getting a little jaded with the freelance biz as a whole

        Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

        That's the whole thing in a nutshell. Do something that very few people (or no one else) is willing to learn/master. Charge what you're worth. Enjoy the monies.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7021007].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
          Banned
          Originally Posted by SurrealPSD View Post

          hehe, cheers mate

          Even so.. I'd be a lot happier selling info products, after 15 years getting a little jaded with the freelance biz as a whole
          I'm in the same boat, but I've been at it nowhere near as long as you have (1.25 years). I got lucky and was pushed towards writing for myself for smarter people, and it's slowly building into something significant.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7021035].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Anticareer
    Some people are happy to work for different pay ranges. In some parts of the world you get paid cents per hour to stand in a rice paddy field all day. No one is forced to accept $1-$2 an hour, but the offer is out there for those that are happy to accept.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7020289].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    You know, this conversation does make me wonder one thing.

    Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if a new freelance marketplace actually did set itself up with a minimum rate?

    I wonder, would the effect potentially be to cull any freelancer not able to provide quality commensurate with that minimum rate?

    Would such a marketplace eliminate broken English writers, technically inept programmers and untalented designers, through buyers being unwilling to pay the base rate for low quality?

    And if the effect were to create a quality bar that had to be surpassed, would that in turn eliminate the low quality buyer?

    As a parallel, if you look at a marketplace like ThemeForest they have fairly strict quality controls (despite their ironic low prices) and that's a big part of why they're so successful.

    I often think quality control in some form or another on any marketplace is a good thing for both sellers and buyers.

    So now that we're talking about it, I do wonder how a minimum rate freelance marketplace would actually play out.

    It most likely wouldn't do any good for those freelancers working for tiny rates now, as if their quality wasn't up to par they wouldn't get hired in such a marketplace anyway.

    But for those freelancers (from any part of the world) who do offer quality, and for buyers who don't want to get stuck with dodgy work, it's actually an interesting concept.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7033310].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author wordpressmania
      Originally Posted by Kezz View Post

      You know, this conversation does make me wonder one thing.

      Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if a new freelance marketplace actually did set itself up with a minimum rate?

      I wonder, would the effect potentially be to cull any freelancer not able to provide quality commensurate with that minimum rate?

      Would such a marketplace eliminate broken English writers, technically inept programmers and untalented designers, through buyers being unwilling to pay the base rate for low quality?

      And if the effect were to create a quality bar that had to be surpassed, would that in turn eliminate the low quality buyer?

      As a parallel, if you look at a marketplace like ThemeForest they have fairly strict quality controls (despite their ironic low prices) and that's a big part of why they're so successful.

      I often think quality control in some form or another on any marketplace is a good thing for both sellers and buyers.

      So now that we're talking about it, I do wonder how a minimum rate freelance marketplace would actually play out.

      It most likely wouldn't do any good for those freelancers working for tiny rates now, as if their quality wasn't up to par they wouldn't get hired in such a marketplace anyway.

      But for those freelancers (from any part of the world) who do offer quality, and for buyers who don't want to get stuck with dodgy work, it's actually an interesting concept.
      I make digital product and sell online because the freelance marketplace has become a mess. I believe that if someone has quality he deserve something more. That is why I asked for a minimum rate for freelance marketplace.

      All the procedure and feedback system in freelance marketplace is already fine to select a good developer. The problem is good paying standard. So it should not be a problem to find good talent for your project.

      I am doing a research on this issue and I will let you know when the research paper will be published.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034285].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kezz View Post

        You know, this conversation does make me wonder one thing.

        Hypothetically, what do you think would happen if a new freelance marketplace actually did set itself up with a minimum rate?

        I wonder, would the effect potentially be to cull any freelancer not able to provide quality commensurate with that minimum rate?

        Would such a marketplace eliminate broken English writers, technically inept programmers and untalented designers, through buyers being unwilling to pay the base rate for low quality?

        And if the effect were to create a quality bar that had to be surpassed, would that in turn eliminate the low quality buyer?

        As a parallel, if you look at a marketplace like ThemeForest they have fairly strict quality controls (despite their ironic low prices) and that's a big part of why they're so successful.

        I often think quality control in some form or another on any marketplace is a good thing for both sellers and buyers.

        So now that we're talking about it, I do wonder how a minimum rate freelance marketplace would actually play out.

        It most likely wouldn't do any good for those freelancers working for tiny rates now, as if their quality wasn't up to par they wouldn't get hired in such a marketplace anyway.

        But for those freelancers (from any part of the world) who do offer quality, and for buyers who don't want to get stuck with dodgy work, it's actually an interesting concept.
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        I make digital product and sell online because the freelance marketplace has become a mess. I believe that if someone has quality he deserve something more. That is why I asked for a minimum rate for freelance marketplace.

        All the procedure and feedback system in freelance marketplace is already fine to select a good developer. The problem is good paying standard. So it should not be a problem to find good talent for your project.

        I am doing a research on this issue and I will let you know when the research paper will be published.
        Elance did have a minimum bid on projects for no less than $50. Well, the offshore people bitched and moaned and complained enough to get it lowered to $20. More long term strategic thinking for that group to deliberately lower their own wages.

        https://www.elance.com/p/node/3134

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...imum-wage.html

        Like I said ... you alone are responsible for the crap wages you work for. Raise your price if you can compete with higher quality work.

        Elance also has tests to test the skills and performance of it's providers. You up for that too?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034310].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Karen Connell
        Originally Posted by wordpressmania View Post

        I make digital product and sell online because the freelance marketplace has become a mess. I believe that if someone has quality he deserve something more. That is why I asked for a minimum rate for freelance marketplace.

        All the procedure and feedback system in freelance marketplace is already fine to select a good developer. The problem is good paying standard. So it should not be a problem to find good talent for your project.

        I am doing a research on this issue and I will let you know when the research paper will be published.
        I have a solution for you - start your own freelance site and set a minimum wage there instead of trying to change the world.

        Start with your own corner of the world, then progress to total domination.:rolleyes:
        Signature

        Never Mistake Activity for Accomplishment

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034347].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Marcus Rockey
    I ask one question first...

    Is the person I am dealing with (whether in a third world country or not) the actual person who will be doing the work?

    THIS IS THE MAJOR PROBLEM HERE. Many people are acting as front men (women), obtaining work and giving to others to do for a tiny fee while they pocket the biggest profits.

    This can be called business and it can be called exploitation (depending on the people behind it, the fee versus the work etc.)

    The cost of running my home with my partner, 6 year old daughter and two teenage step daughters is over $2000 a month. I need to earn a significant amount of money to make that happen.

    The cost of living varies around the world and in parts of Asia the cost of living is a tenth of mine.

    I happily pay outsourcer's (provided I am certain in my mind that it is them who is doing the work) an hourly rate that is considerably less than the hourly rate I would pay someone who resides in my country the U.K.

    I do not believe I am exploiting and frankly refute any remark that I might be. I also actively encourage my prospects and clients to outsource WITH THE USE OF A SERVICE LEVEL AGREEMENT AND WHERE EVER POSSIBLE A CONVERSATION VIA SKYPE.

    There are no absolute certainties but provided I am taking actions to ensure I am paying a reasonable rate, receiving a good level of work, deadlines are being met, relationships are being built and fairness and equality are being met then I am happy to continue the way I'm going.

    Marcus Rockey
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7034432].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    Our idea of poverty is a situation where someone lives in government welfare housing and gets a food card. You still have your running water, heat (possibly air conditioning) and maybe even free internet (or you can certainly find a free wifi spot).

    This is Indian poverty (some images are extremely graphic)...
    Filthy India Photos, Chinese Netizen Reactions – chinaSMACK

    Perhaps now it is clear why so many are willing to do a task for $2 where an American or European wants $50. The broke American that comes here to WarriorForum asking for $50 to do something has government welfare as a safety net if nobody buys. Imagine taking that away. Maybe they too would work for peanuts just to have guaranteed income.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036046].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      Our idea of poverty is a situation where someone lives in government welfare housing and gets a food card. You still have your running water, heat (possibly air conditioning) and maybe even free internet (or you can certainly find a free wifi spot).

      Perhaps now it is clear why so many are willing to do a task for $2 where an American or European wants $50. The broke American that comes here to WarriorForum asking for $50 to do something has government welfare as a safety net if nobody buys. Imagine taking that away. Maybe they too would work for peanuts just to have guaranteed income.
      That's a bunch of BS. Some people get welfare, many do not. Children being raised in poverty in the US go to bed hungry. Many people live on the streets and die from exposure to extreme temperatures. Many people die because they can't afford health care insurance. So poverty looks different in different countries, but hunger is hunger and death from lack of medical care is still death and homelessness is still homelessness.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036099].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Exactly Suzanne!

        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        That's a bunch of BS. Some people get welfare, many do not. Children being raised in poverty in the US go to bed hungry. Many people live on the streets and die from exposure to extreme temperatures. Many people die because they can't afford health care insurance. So poverty looks different in different countries, but hunger is hunger and death from lack of medical care is still death and homelessness is till homelessness.
        Besides poor children going to bed hungry every night, they wake up hungry too and go to school hungry as well. There, they can't concentrate on their studies due to the hunger and lack of energy. Due to that, they don't make good grades which puts another mark against them when they're older and trying to enter the work force only to compete against an extremely high unemployment rate while trying to find employment to support themselves.

        I have no idea why people think everything in the US is grand and the roads are littered with gold free for the picking! :rolleyes:

        And that's not even mentioning our war veterans who make up a part of the homeless populace passing because of the lack of help in getting medical help from the very country they risked their lives to serve and protect.

        Having the government as a safety net my arse!

        Terra
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036165].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        That's a bunch of BS. Some people get welfare, many do not. Children being raised in poverty in the US go to bed hungry. Many people live on the streets and die from exposure to extreme temperatures. Many people die because they can't afford health care insurance. So poverty looks different in different countries, but hunger is hunger and death from lack of medical care is still death and homelessness is till homelessness.
        The welfare is there for those who opt into the system. There is no reason for children to go to bed hungry if their parents would get a WIC card (and not feed anyone but their own household with it).

        Those people living outside actually choose to be there. They don't want to stay at shelters or start on a welfare program that puts them on the road to recovery; they would rather live outside. Why they choose that life is something only they know. And yes, this is a fact. All big cities and their suburbs have outreach programs. Some even drive around looking for homeless and try to convince them to come with them. The vast majority refuse to go and stay on the street instead.

        Health care in the US is 100% free if you are totally broke. Only then does government aide kick in. The odd thing is that if you have a little bit of money (but still can't afford it) you've got to wait until you are broke before they give it to you (possibly enough time for cancer to spread).... but that's a whole other discussion itself.

        So while you are right that poverty looks different across the world, even low class in the US looks pretty damn good to the average citizen of a developing nation.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036224].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          The welfare is there for those who opt into the system. There is no reason for children to go to bed hungry if their parents would get a WIC card (and not feed anyone but their own household with it).

          Those people living outside actually choose to be there. They don't want to stay at shelters or start on a welfare program that puts them on the road to recovery; they would rather live outside. Why they choose that life is something only they know. And yes, this is a fact. All big cities and their suburbs have outreach programs. Some even drive around looking for homeless and try to convince them to come with them. The vast majority refuse to go and stay on the street instead.

          Health care in the US is 100% free if you are totally broke. Only then does government aide kick in. The odd thing is that if you have a little bit of money (but still can't afford it) you've got to wait until you are broke before they give it to you (possibly enough time for cancer to spread).... but that's a whole other discussion itself.

          So while you are right that poverty looks different across the world, even low class in the US looks pretty damn good to the average citizen of a developing nation.
          I worked for social services for 3 years and you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

          "Those people living outside choose to be there"! Thats a rather inciteful & offensive comment if you ask me.

          Every DAY homeless shelters in NY will *turn away* 2,500 people. So HOW the f&#k does this support your theory that "most of them want to live outside"? Thats potentially one of the stupidest comments I've ever read on WF in my entire life. We don't have enough shelters, nor do we have enough soup kitchens to give these people food.

          Here is some more food for thought. The HIGH majority of people who get into these shelters are women and children. So if you're a homeless white or black man, your chances of getting in are about 15%.

          Whatever amount of single women you find living on the streets (I believe its around 4,000), you will find 3x that amount of single men living on the streets. Then 4x that amount who are families.

          And you're saying these people "choose" to be there? Right. Same way many of them choose to have health problems... that makes no sense whatsoever. People in poverty are the most likely to come down with health problems because they don't have health insurance. They're also that much more likely to have mental health problems as well.

          For many of these people, escaping poverty does not happen. Some will, but its very small percent. But to say they chose to be there, makes you look like a total douchebag.

          I've seen some of the comments you've left around this forum and I have no idea how you haven't been banned yet. You are ignorant, disrespectful, and need to take a long vacation from WF. You might as well tell the forum that women who get raped "chose" it. Because many of these homeless people are getting raped by a failing system.

          -Red
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036447].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          The welfare is there for those who opt into the system. There is no reason for children to go to bed hungry ... blah blah blah

          Those people living outside actually choose to be there.... blah blah blah

          Health care in the US is 100% free if you are totally broke. ..blah blah blah
          Tell me some more fairy tales. They're amusing, but aren't factual.

          Deaths Rising for Lack of Insurance, Study Finds - NYTimes.com

          Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs

          Overcrowded Homeless Shelters Nationwide Look For Help This Winter
          "We're seeing a new face of homelessness where children and families are becoming homeless." She said there's even a waiting list for families hoping to have shelter.

          NYC Homeless Shelters Overcrowded Due To Out-Of-Town Homeless Visitors, Says Bloomberg
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036503].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Another example of an Indian firm on Elance who has their stuff together

    https://www.elance.com/s/synapseindia/

    They charge thousands for the work they do and have made a bundle from Elance.

    Earnings
    $9,423,441 Total
    $8,436 Per Client

    Here's the Netmen Corp's stats

    Earnings
    $3,392,179 Total
    $422 Per Client
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036199].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Larry Leggett
    There are pros and cons in every aspect of working. But I have seen that if you can build a better profile, it will surely give you more works in better rate than before. You cannot blame freelance marketplace for this.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7036294].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I could argue and say people from higher paid countries are the victim's here!

    People from higher paid countries are difficult to compete, because they can't afford to take $20 for a day's work.

    Not saying it doesn't suck, but remember a quote from my man Bobby the brain..

    "You know the difference between a limo driver and a cab driver? The limo driver wears a suit". - bobby the brain

    Don't undersell yourself.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7037751].message }}

Trending Topics