A Newbies Take on Newsletters and Lists...

42 replies
Hey guys,

Allow me to be the first to say I have next to ZERO marketing experience.

I DO however, have extensive sales experience and would happily go toe to toe with anyone when it comes to making a sales call. (But that's neither here nor there, just wanted to toot my horn for a sentence or two lol)

The point of this post is for the experienced marketers out there that have a large list and are sending out offers and other letters on a regular basis. My hopes is to offer a little insight to your methods.

I've purchased a few WSOs as I'm sure many of us have. Some of them have been wonderful, others have been garbage. That's not their fault, it's mine for clicking "Buy Now."

In doing these purchases, I've gotten on a few mailing lists and receive emails from them regularly. Thankfully, I use a specific email address to receive these so it doesn't clutter up more important messages.

I was just going through my account to browse through the messages and I realized something...

...these guys are sending me "offers" and "GROUND BREAKING SECRET RAWWWRRR" emails daily. Sometimes once or twice a day.

Now, whether these offers work or not is beside the point. The point of this email is that I don't even read these things anymore. I see that "John Smith" has sent me another email (Name is an example only, any John Smiths on here I apologize hah) and I just delete it.

Why?

Because my goal is to make money online and help people. When someone sends me daily offers of how to make money online and sends me daily emails of "the next best secret!" they start to lose credibility. In fact, out of the 5-10 people that send me emails, there is only 1 that I pay attention to. Why? Because they send me an email every week or two. And those emails aren't promoting the next best secret. They are talking to ME. They are making me THINK about ME. They are asking me the right questions and digging into the heart of the matters that matter to me.

I could care less how John made 500 dollars a day if the day before he just sent me an email how Sally made 200 dollars a day. It begins to blur over and ultimately costs them any potential future purchases from me.

So to the experienced marketers out there... ease up on the emails. Re-think your strategy and make sure you're delivering your readers quality reads. So far from what I've seen it seems they are throwing poo at a wall and hoping some of it sticks.

Now, some of you may say "Dude, I make XXX dollars a day doing this. I know what I'm doing." and that may be true. But think about how much more you could make if you start showing your list that you have quality content over quantity.

Just my two cents.

Thoughts?
#lists #newbies #newsletters
  • Profile picture of the author JabMonkey
    Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post

    I've purchased a few WSOs as I'm sure many of us have. Some of them have been wonderful, others have been garbage. That's not their fault, it's mine for clicking "Buy Now."
    No way, buddy. It is THEIR fault, not yours. You buy because a claim is made and if it turns out garbage that is definitely the seller's fault.

    Don't let crap marketers off the hook so easy, please.
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    • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
      Originally Posted by JabMonkey View Post

      No way, buddy. It is THEIR fault, not yours. You buy because a claim is made and if it turns out garbage that is definitely the seller's fault.

      Don't let crap marketers off the hook so easy, please.
      Regardless of who's fault it is. The point is that I made the purchase and could very easily get a refund if I wanted to. In fact, the offers I've purchased weren't garbage in terms of the "idea behind it". It was more garbage in terms of the information provided.

      I know what you're saying though, but I don't want this thread to get too far off course of the main reasoning behind my posting it.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        A Texan friend of mine like to use the phrase "big hat, no cattle" to describe people who make a lot of noise and fail to back it up.

        Relating that to your point, there are a lot of people selling stuff where that product represents their whole and sole offering. They've built a list (big hat) but have nothing to offer (no cattle). So they start doing the 'churn and burn' dance.

        And they will be successful at it for as long as they can continue to a) replace the subscribers who either unsubscribe or ignore emails and b) find more offers to sling against the wall. If either of those things goes away, they're out of business.

        Your option of providing quality content isn't viable for them because they have nothing of any real import to say. So they churn out a few more solo ads and an affiliate link or three, then start looking for tomorrow's blasts.

        The next step is to come here and start an 'Email is Dead' thread...
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  • Profile picture of the author PatriciaJ
    I agree with you. I stayed on the lists because of possible updates to software or plugins but many of the WSO sellers email too often.

    The worst was last week, after daily 2 or 3 emails she sent 3 different money making offers within an hour then 2 more before 24 hours was up. She couldn't possibly have checked them out well enough to recommend them so her credibility was shot with me. The emails smacked of desperation rather than somebody who is doing well and has something to offer. I unsubscribed and wouldn't buy anything of hers again.

    I've decided now to unsubscribe from the list of anybody who sends more than a couple of emails a week. Also those who share their buyer list.
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    • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
      Originally Posted by PatriciaJ View Post


      The worst was last week, after daily 2 or 3 emails she sent 3 different money making offers within an hour then 2 more before 24 hours was up. She couldn't possibly have checked them out well enough to recommend them so her credibility was shot with me. The emails smacked of desperation rather than somebody who is doing well and has something to offer. I unsubscribed and wouldn't buy anything of hers again.
      You hit the nail on the head with that. That's the exact point I was trying to make. The fact that they are sending me offers every day pretty much tells me they haven't really taken a look at the offers...and if they did there is absolutely no way they had a chance to try it out and implement it.

      When I start to build my first list of subscribers my goal is to deliver an email the day they sign up. Then another email the following day to remind them they subscribed to me and to ask them to be on the look out for emails from me in the future. Then I'd most likely blast out an email every 5-8 days or longer. The only exception to the rule would be if there was a time sensitive email I needed them to open and I imagine even that would be a rare occurrence.

      The main goal for me is to send out an email that when someone sees it hit their inbox they go, "Oh Doug sent an email, I wonder what he has to say."

      Another exception to the rule is I get emails from Jonathan Budd. And for those in IM that don't know him, you should really check him out. He's legit, genuine, sincere and TRULY cares about the people he connects with. I get an email from him 2-3 times a week but he never promotes a product. He has a nicely typed email with a link to a video he's done that provides insight and outlooks on life that help you think differently.

      If he ever sent me an email saying he wrote a book of created a product that he believes in, what are the chances of me buying it? Chances are pretty darn good if it falls in my budget, but I can almost guarantee that I'll at least check the product out.
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      • Profile picture of the author jeffonmission
        Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post


        The main goal for me is to send out an email that when someone sees it hit their inbox they go, "Oh Doug sent an email, I wonder what he has to say."
        I think this is an absolutely awesome goal to have! It takes a lot more time, effort, and service to get to this point but it's how you build a business you can be proud of for sure.

        I'm looking forward to seeing your success over time - it sounds like you're going places for sure!
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    • Profile picture of the author Britt Malka
      Originally Posted by PatriciaJ View Post

      The worst was last week, after daily 2 or 3 emails she sent 3 different money making offers within an hour then 2 more before 24 hours was up. She couldn't possibly have checked them out well enough to recommend them so her credibility was shot with me.
      I see this SO often, but I also see those same names on top of the JV boards, winning lots of extra dollars...

      That sometimes makes me frustrated, but well...
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  • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
    Sorry to continue this rant from yesterday, but I just opened my email and found 5 more emails (4 of them coming for the same people who just sent me an email yesterday.)

    One of these email subjects was: (Rewording it slightly to avoid calling anyone out. This thread is meant to be productive, not a flamewar)

    "This Secret Works!! The Secret to a KILLER Daily Income..."

    Really? You JUST sent me an email 2 days ago with "THE ANSWER to all of my marketing and financial problems."

    I'm not posting this thread to complain and gripe about these emails. In fact, I am 100% positive some of these offers that are filling up my inbox COULD be useful to me and could probably make me money if I applied what was taught. The problem though is these marketers are losing all credibility with me. Not only will I never open one of their emails, let alone click their link in the email. If I ever saw them promote a WSO on the forum, I would most likely not even glance it over.

    One thing they are missing is this:

    A steady topic of WHY they are emailing me. Sure, I am looking to make money online. But that doesn't mean I want a plethora of money making product offers that deliver nothing but vague sketchy emails with the hopes of peaking my curiosity.

    So again, my suggestion to you marketers out there:

    Email FOLLOW UP!

    Email me thanking me for the purchase (most do this.)

    Send me an email for the first couple of days then drop it down to every 5-8 days.

    Each email should be RELEVANT to the PRODUCT I BOUGHT. (Example - If I bought a product on traffic generation, your emails to me should be about traffic generation; not traffic generation products or "SUPER AMAZING SECRET!" offers that will make me money.

    Tell stories in your email, be personal, ask questions and create a connection with me.


    If you follow these steps, I gaurantee you will find yourself with a longer subscribing and much more quality list of potential buyers than you ever had before.
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    • Profile picture of the author sufeyh
      People go around the internet looking for the secret to maintaining and building a good list, but they don't realize that the real great secret is simple and its right in front of their eyes. All they have to do is take some time to listen to their customers/subscribers. Its everything you mentioned in this thread, doing the total opposite of what all these crap marketers are doing.

      People like to feel the personal touch when receiving these emails, they like to feel as if the person they subscribed to is "talking to them" as you mentioned. It makes one much more credible to their subscribers.

      Honestly, as long as you maintain integrity and deliver value, the money will come and find you.
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  • Profile picture of the author twinkenterprises
    What do you think of someone who sends out daily advice (with free or inexpensive products and services that have worked well) for internet marketers with some free gifts and promotions every so often?
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    • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
      Originally Posted by twinkenterprises View Post

      What do you think of someone who sends out daily advice (with free or inexpensive products and services that have worked well) for internet marketers with some free gifts and promotions every so often?
      That definitely can be an exception to the rule.

      If I went to a squeeze page and it said "Sign up for a free 15 day course of daily tips to do this thing etc. etc." and I signed up for it.

      I'd be looking forward to those emails knowing full well there will eventually be an offer for me to purchase. But if these daily advice emails are a quality read and really feel like something I could use and apply, I'd be much more apt to purchasing a product they offered.

      For example, years ago I was looking at opening my own coffee shop in my area (before coffee shops became huge).

      I googled everything I could about it and finally came across a site that offered a 15 day newsletter with 15 days worth of guides, advice, techniques and insight to what I need to consider before starting up a coffee shop.

      These lessons ranged anywhere from what location you should choose, what your expenses are, the profit you could make and even information ON coffee.

      (Did you know coffee is actually roasted 3 times before being drank? Most of us think it's roasted once, but in fact it's 3 times! It gets roasted after the initial picking. Roasted again due to the friction casued by grinding. Then "roasted" again when it is brewed.

      Or did you know that a strong smelling bag of coffee beans DOESN'T mean a good tasting cup of coffee? The smell comes from the oil of the beans, too strong of a smell means most of the oil has left the bean and can reduce the flavor of the actual beverage.)

      I typed the above in parenthesis to explain that to this day, I still retained that information on what they taught me. I saw it as incredibly interesting and useful information.

      At the end of 15 days, they offered me a service to help me make purchasing a coffee shop even easier.

      Now, unfortunately, I never got into the coffee business - I had gotten a new job offer that paid well and I wanted to pursue my career. But the point is had I not gotten that offer, I would have most likely purchased their service and started my journey to owning a coffee shop.

      It's all about relationships and finding a connection with your readers.
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  • Profile picture of the author nav123
    I totally agree that dude. We are in the same boat.
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisSWN
    It can only be a high volume business model, just extrapolating. They must add so many new subscribers any day that they can stiill afford to burn through those lists maximizing profits through sending out hyped up offers. For it to work you just have to have more subscribes than un-subscribes per day and is still making money.
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  • Profile picture of the author MrFume
    I'm afraid it is the same mentality that drives T.V commercials-they annoy intelligent folks-but they are not aimed at people who are discerning, they are designed to capture the less discriminating people who open their wallet readily; blanket commercial campaign, it is a war of numbers-a percentage will buy, that is good enough for these guys-list of 100,000 10% conversion (maybe) that's 10,000 times 7$, or $27 not a bad earner.So it is hopeless....
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    • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
      Originally Posted by MrFume View Post

      I'm afraid it is the same mentality that drives T.V commercials-they annoy intelligent folks-but they are not aimed at people who are discerning, they are designed to capture the less discriminating people who open their wallet readily; blanket commercial campaign, it is a war of numbers-a percentage will buy, that is good enough for these guys-list of 100,000 10% conversion (maybe) that's 10,000 times 7$, or $27 not a bad earner.So it is hopeless....
      I agree with what you said but I'd like to say that instead of "less descriminating". I'd say less educated. I remember at 16 I saw an infomercial for Don Lapre's tiny classified ads = BIG PROFITS! (remember that guy? he's in jail now for fraud lawl)

      I'd like to think of myself as an intelligent guy with good judgement, but at the time I wasn't educated on the truth behind making money and working for yourself = IT REALLY DOES TAKE WORK!

      It's kind of silly how so many people really believe otherwise but unfortunately it's primarily due to the pipe dreams infomercials sell you as well as the way some of these WSOs portray the message they are delivering.

      Not to go too off topic, but with a lot of these WSOs that are out, I bet if you focused a majority of your extra time and effort into the information that's provided, you'd make money with it. Unfortunately the way most of these are promoted give the uneducated person the impression that it's easy money when it really isn't.

      Hell, when I was a "street pharmacist" many many years ago it was still hard work lol (NOTE: I do not suggest doing that... haha) It ultimately falls into risk over reward.

      EDIT: Woot! 100th post! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewStark
    Could not agree more with what you're saying and I really do hope that you've requested refunds and given direct feedback to the offending WSO sellers.

    It may be that they are only following what they learnt in another WSO and are scratching their head about how a list of buyers is not generating the sales it should be.

    I think that people forget that listbuilding is the same as running a real business, if you take the customer for granted they will vote with their feet and leave. The sad thing is that with the "churn & burn" model thousands of newbies come online each day looking for fast easy solutions.

    Good luck on your quest to highlight this issue
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
      I suspect that this is because their core business is emailing their list with offers, rather than creating products on their own.

      I cold be wrong on this, perhaps many people have both, but my guess is if someone is mailing that many times with that many different offers, their real business is emailing, not what you want your business to be.
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      • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
        Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

        I suspect that this is because their core business is emailing their list with offers, rather than creating products on their own.

        I cold be wrong on this, perhaps many people have both, but my guess is if someone is mailing that many times with that many different offers, their real business is emailing, not what you want your business to be.
        I completely understand what you're getting at. But the point of my post wasn't in regards to what I want my business to be versus what their business is. It was an insight into what they could be doing to improve their conversions and more importantly provide more value to their list of subscribers.

        It's safe to assume that if I don't even look at their emails anymore...that there are many others out there like me who don't read them either for a similar reason.

        If they refine their approach and deliver what their readers want; it's a win-win for everyone.
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
          Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post

          I completely understand what you're getting at. But the point of my post wasn't in regards to what I want my business to be versus what their business is. It was an insight into what they could be doing to improve their conversions and more importantly provide more value to their list of subscribers.

          It's safe to assume that if I don't even look at their emails anymore...that there are many others out there like me who don't read them either for a similar reason.

          If they refine their approach and deliver what their readers want; it's a win-win for everyone.
          I understand (I think) what you are saying. What I mean is that they already have a business model, and it is probably successful for them, otherwise they might not continue doing it that way. And so are probably not looking for a solution to a problem they do not have.

          Your post seems to be about addressing a problem that they have, but if a person doesn't think they have that problem they are not going to be looking for a way to fix it.
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        • Profile picture of the author shane_k
          Well, if you think about it, there are three types of email marketers who are using this strategy.

          1) Those who are playing the numbers game and are succeeding at it.

          These people don't care about credibility, or if you get frustrated and stop reading after awhile because they have a ton of NEW subscribers coming in every single day, more than they have unsubscribing.

          And because they have done their homework and tracked and tested everything, and fine tuned their offers to the point where they know their conversion numbers so well, they know how many subscribers they need each and every day to maintain their list, and to either maintain the amount that they are making, or increase the amount that they are making from their lists.

          Are they bad people? From their point of view no they aren't. From others probably.

          Then you have the second group


          2) Those who are playing the numbers game and doing it wrong.

          These are the people who probably have heard about this strategy and are trying to apply it but don't fully understand it, or they are not bothering to test and track anything. They don't know their numbers, their conversion rates, or anything like that at all. These are usually the people who end up coming back here and say that email list building is dead.

          They probably know enough to know that you can choose to take the time to build a relatinship with your list or you can choose to use your list like a numbers game, but, they don't want to take the time to build a "relationship" and want their money now!

          Both of the above two groups probably don't care about if they lose credibility or not, nor if you unsubscribe or not. Because for them they aren't playing the credibility game.


          Then you have the final group.

          3) People who don't know any better.

          These are the people who have probably read in an ebook or course that this is how you do things. They don't know that there is another choice for them.
          So they move blindly forward and again they don't track or test anything, and they wonder why aren't people buying from me? Why are so many people unsubscribing?
          And they also begin to get desperate. And they are usually the second type of people who come back here and say email list building is dead.

          it is this group of people who your message will affect, and will probably be an "aha!" moment for them.

          EDIT: MY point is that you say they are losing out on so much money, but are you sure? I think the email marketers in group #1 are probably not losing money because they know their numbers from tracking and testing everything.

          But the people in groups #2, and #3 in my examples above possibly are.

          Some are and some probably aren't.
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
            shane_k says it much more eloquently than I do, OP has the opinion that somebody is losing out on money because they are marketing in a particular way. I don't particularly like getting email blasted every day with offers of stuff I don't want, and most times I unsubscribe form those lists.

            But it may or may not be successful for them, and unless you know their numbers, which you might, I don't know, there is not much basis for saying they are losing our on money.

            Pretty much, within some legal limitations, they have the right to run their business the way they want to. I know I like to have that right with mine. I don't particularly like getting coupon offers in the mail from the grocery store who is blanket mailing my zip code, but I just throw them away without worrying about it.
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            • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
              Shane and JMichael,

              Both of your points are solid and it makes a lot of sense when you put it in those words. And just to be clear, I hope I didn't come off as bashing these marketers.

              The reasoning I have can be tied into what Shane said:

              Those who are playing the numbers game and are succeeding at it.

              These people don't care about credibility, or if you get frustrated and stop reading after awhile because they have a ton of NEW subscribers coming in every single day, more than they have unsubscribing.

              And because they have done their homework and tracked and tested everything, and fine tuned their offers to the point where they know their conversion numbers so well, they know how many subscribers they need each and every day to maintain their list, and to either maintain the amount that they are making, or increase the amount that they are making from their lists.
              If they know their numbers as well as they think they do then wouldn't it make sense (if you were them or I were them) to try something else to improve their conversions?

              Here comes another example that I'll probably massacre but I just am thinking out loud here.

              Let's say they have 10,000 people on their list and sending out an email a day with a different offer. Let's say they gain 500 leads a week, but lose 400 people a week from unsubscribing. That's 100 leads a week they are gaining, so that's not bad at all.

              Now let's say out of those 10,000 people. They are bringing in a 5% conversion (This may be low or high, I don't know.) So 50 people are buying whatever it is they are blasting out every week.

              Let's say this offer is a pretty average WSO price of $30 bucks with a 50-75% commission rate. For the sake of simple math, let's just say they are making 50% commission. That's $750 a week they are banking in.

              No matter who you are, that's nothing to scoff at. I'd love to be pulling in that kind of money through IM.

              But what if... with a few refinements. They started building a list and only 100 people unsubscribed every week. Thus giving them 400 new subscribers a week.

              Now what if instead of blasting out an email every day with 5% weekly conversion. They ended up sending quality emails every few days with an offer every couple weeks that resulted in a 15% conversion?

              That would be $4500 in sales every two weeks, with a 50% commission rate that would be $1,125 a week. That's an extra $375 they could be making by doing less work and more importantly, providing their subscribers more value.

              Now, I'm tired as heck right now so I probably screwed up the calculations. And like I said earlier, I don't know what a typical conversion usually is. I'm just offering food for thought. As a budding entreprenuer, it would make more sense to me to do less work, provide more quality, keep more customers and in turn make more money.

              But you guys are right, whatever works; works. It's just a matter of outlook I guess.
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              • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
                No worries Doug, we're on a marketing forum talking about marketing strategies.

                From the viewpoint you are offering here, it makes perfect sense to test out different ideas, different emails, frequencies, products, all that makes absolute perfect sense. And it could be that some of the people are doing exactly that. And some are not.

                Some are also probably following the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. In my experience, response on any list tends to drop after a while without a large dose of personality in the emails, so perhaps it is just a matter of time until some changes are made.
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      • Profile picture of the author sufeyh
        Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

        I suspect that this is because their core business is emailing their list with offers, rather than creating products on their own.

        I cold be wrong on this, perhaps many people have both, but my guess is if someone is mailing that many times with that many different offers, their real business is emailing, not what you want your business to be.
        This isn't necessarily a bad thing actually. What matters is how they promote those offers. Those shoddily promoted offers, done for the sake of putting up the offer (for adswaps or other reasons) are definitely a turnoff.

        I am however subscribed to 2 good IMers who deliver affiliate products well.

        One of them personally tests the products first before offering it to his list and he describes his experience with the product honestly, if it is bad he would say it is bad and if it was good he would recommend it to his list. I wouldn't know if he is lying but I guess the way he delivered it convinced me that he is sincere and his information seems to be accurate.

        Another one of them would entice his list with a personal story (or so he claims, anyway the story he tells are normally great at enticing people) as a way to offer a product.

        I guess these are some strategies that list builders can adopt to maintain a good list.
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        • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
          I'm not taking away from the success and hard work some of these guys have probably done to get their list to generate money like they have.

          But allow me to use an analogy.

          Let's say you need some gas.

          There are two gas stations next to eachother. One is your run of the mill hole in the wall with products that have reached their expiration date in the 80s. Unfriendly staff. Unkempt environment...but they always have a "deal". They always have some special to lure people in.

          On the other hand, the other gas station is a little older than the first. But the premises are clean. It's staff is friendly and even though they don't offer "deals" all the time. They have the products I want. As I walk in, they already remember me. They ask me how I'm doing. They tell me they just got a shipment of whatever soda or beef jerkey I tend to buy there.

          Chances are, I'm going to go to that gas station from here on out. Sure, I may have gone to the other gas station to get a "deal". But at the end of the day, I don't want to go there anymore because I know what to expect in terms of friendliness and cleanliness.

          These "list blasters" are losing out on who knows how much money. And they could completely turn it around if they just cleaned a little, restocked their inventory and adjusted the attitude of their staff.

          Probably a horrible example, but I hope the point I was trying to make made sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author louie6925
      Originally Posted by AndrewStark View Post

      Could not agree more with what you're saying and I really do hope that you've requested refunds and given direct feedback to the offending WSO sellers.

      It may be that they are only following what they learnt in another WSO and are scratching their head about how a list of buyers is not generating the sales it should be.

      I think that people forget that listbuilding is the same as running a real business, if you take the customer for granted they will vote with their feet and leave. The sad thing is that with the "churn & burn" model thousands of newbies come online each day looking for fast easy solutions.

      Good luck on your quest to highlight this issue
      This! very good post and that is the problem, there are so many wso's/products out there teaching people how to build a list with step by step instructions. Therefore, what we are left with is tons of clueless people with lists and not a clue how they should be using them, which results in poor content and over promotion.
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  • Profile picture of the author sirtiman
    The list senders are knowing their conversion. Even you are unsubscribe, the list senders will do it again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I've been studying list builders for a long time and one thing has stood out in all these years: in studying the marketers who make 7-8, even 9 figures annually, not a single one of them uses the churn and burn method.

    Not-a-single-one-of-them. O_o

    And they provide immense value and content.

    They must be doing something right.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    Nice rant, but perhaps you should stop throwing stones from within your glass house.

    Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post

    Allow me to be the first to say I have next to ZERO marketing experience.
    Yet from the site in your sig:
    "I take pride in helping people succeed in their marketing endeavors." among other chest puffing statements.

    I <3 fake gurus. So entertaining.
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    • Profile picture of the author WebPen
      Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      Nice rant, but perhaps you should stop throwing stones from within your glass house.

      Yet from the site in your sig:
      "I take pride in helping people succeed in their marketing endeavors." among other chest puffing statements.

      I <3 fake gurus. So entertaining.
      I <3 how you didn't even make it to the next line in the original post.

      Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post

      Allow me to be the first to say I have next to ZERO marketing experience.

      I DO however, have extensive sales experience and would happily go toe to toe with anyone when it comes to making a sales call.
      Marketing and sales go hand in hand.

      Good try though.
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      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

        Marketing and sales go hand in hand.

        Good try though.
        Marketing is the car commercial, print ad, billboard, website, Twitter account and so on. Sales is the guy at the dealership that meets you out on the lot.

        The sales people with no marketing background usually have difficulties online due to a disconnect between the modern internet and interpersonal selling. They seem to steer towards what most closely resembles traditional offline selling; posting to forums, pitches on YouTube and so on. It's pretty low volume and may be labor intensive.
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        • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          Nice rant, but perhaps you should stop throwing stones from within your glass house.

          Yet from the site in your sig:
          "I take pride in helping people succeed in their marketing endeavors." among other chest puffing statements.

          I <3 fake gurus. So entertaining.
          Whoa Broseph, I can tell by your post you probably do an excellent job connecting with your customers. lol

          You're right, I don't have any marketing experience when it comes to the IM World.

          I really appreciate how constructive you were in this post. I certainly hope people learn from your skills.

          As for my "glass house" that I'm throwing stones from. I don't throw stones, just advice and insight. And I purposely made my metaphorical house "glass" so people could see I'm not afraid to say I'm not making millions in the IM world, but as a sales guy I'm quite successful in society's eyes.

          (NOTE: I said society's eyes. Not my own or those of other marketers. I am always striving to do more and better myself.)

          Originally Posted by Justin Stowe View Post

          I <3 how you didn't even make it to the next line in the original post.

          Marketing and sales go hand in hand.

          Good try though.
          Thanks for the back up, Justin. I appreciate that.

          Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

          I email everyday, sometimes twice a day. A mix of info and offers. I have less than 1/10 of one percent unsubscribe. Actually I will go days and sometimes weeks before even a single person unsubscribes. And I keep a consistent open rate of between 45 and 50 percent and a CTR of above 25%.

          I do not understand why you would have blanket rule about INSTANTLY unsubscribing when someone emails you twice a day.
          I just want to clarify that I don't instantly unsubscribe from someone's list if they are emailing me multiple times day. In my original post I explained I had a seperate email address for newsletters and list subscriptions so I only check them every couple of days now.

          The people that I unsubscribe from are those who send an obvious copy pasted, "This offer is incredible and it's the best thing since the OJ Simpson trial!" then a day later they send another copy pasted, "WHOA! I never knew someone could come up with such a TOP SECRET way to get traffic! Holy smokes it's so good I didn't even have to review it!" (yes I'm being sarcastic here haha)

          From what your numbers tell me, you deliver excellent content to your readers. Like you said, if it ain't broke - don't fix it. And if the way you reply to people and talk to people on the forum reflects the content you send your list, I can see why they stick around <---this is a compliment so don't read it wrong!

          May I ask you when people do unsubscribe do they leave a comment in the unsubscribe area why? I can't imagine most do, but just would be curious what their reasoning may be.


          Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

          The sales people with no marketing background usually have difficulties online due to a disconnect between the modern internet and interpersonal selling. They seem to steer towards what most closely resembles traditional offline selling; posting to forums, pitches on YouTube and so on. It's pretty low volume and may be labor intensive.
          This is where you have it wrong - though I can see where you could assume this.

          The things about most sales people...is that they are approaching sales all wrong. Most sales people are presenters. They present their product and tell the customer why their product is so amazing... sound familiar? Sounds like most of the squeeze pages I've come across.

          Sales is the art of connecting with your customers, asking them the right questions, getting on the same page, asking for their commitment and then closing the sale. If you're experienced (and successful) in sales. It's not labor intensive at all. It's just a matter of the approach you take.

          From what I understand of marketing. It's the message you are trying to give to any future prospects that hit your squeeze page or advertisements. When I got to a squeeze page or click and ad that caters to what I'm looking for. I could care less how flashy the product is. What I want to know is two things:

          How will this help me with my current problem I'm facing?
          -and-
          Is this something I can do?

          I don't want to know what the features of the product are, I want to know HOW those features will help me acheive the results I'm looking for.

          When I don't purchase something, I don't purchase because of the quality of the product...I don't make a purchase because the product page hasn't given me enough information to help me see if can fix my problem.

          I could start a huge debate here by saying this: But most marketers are doing it wrong.

          "Hey brah...you can't say that, you have ZERO marketing experience and you puff your chest and do stuff with glass houses and stones, remember?"

          Sure, I don't have marketing experience, but I have BUYING experience. I'm a consumer, just like you. The biggest issue I see with many marketers is that they are too worried about making the product flashy. Too worried about the design and layout and spend the least amount of time on the message.

          Well, I can tell you that the last IM product I purchased was with someone that made a solid white squeeze page, had a 4 minute video and the product was $500 bucks. His info was solid, he touched all the important parts I put in my name email and cell number, he called me personally, we talked for 10 minutes, he answered my questions and I bought the product.

          Since then we've chatted quite a bit on skype, on the phone and he is offering another product for over $1,000 and I'm waiting for him to get back in touch with me so I can make that purchase as well. Why?

          Because he had the right approach and his initial marketing endeavor WORKED.

          Anyways, I didn't want to go too off topic on this post, but Dub...I gotta say, you may want to examine your social skills. It's one thing to disagree with a post and reason with validity behind it. It's another to assume.
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          If you want to make money on Teespring, Shoot me a PM.

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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
            I don't take your words in any other way except a compliment Doug, thank you for your kindness.

            Truthfully I have never asked why people unsub, I have never filled out one of those forms, and have never asked. It took me a while to find my market and my niche within that market. I still do some things in the marketing market, I guess for lack of a better word.

            But mostly I use the knowledge I have learned here and from other places, too, to create useful products and effective marketing campaigns for them. I have had to learn to tone down the rhetoric and hype in my main market, but otherwise I have learned a tremendous amount of useful information here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
      Originally Posted by Randall Magwood View Post

      Don't worry, i'm in the same boat that you're in. Whenever someone starts emailing me everyday...twice a day...i INSTANTLY unsubscribe from them.
      I email everyday, sometimes twice a day. A mix of info and offers. I have less than 1/10 of one percent unsubscribe. Actually I will go days and sometimes weeks before even a single person unsubscribes. And I keep a consistent open rate of between 45 and 50 percent and a CTR of above 25%.

      I do not understand why you would have blanket rule about INSTANTLY unsubscribing when someone emails you twice a day.
      Signature


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      • Profile picture of the author ujubo
        It's funny. I only just started noticing this dynamic last week. I have am on about 10 lists and although most of them start off with good content for the first few days, after a while it seems like they have nothing more to say that is of value and just focus on promoting products which from the effort they are putting into these promotions I am guessing they have never tried themselves.

        I wrote a post on internet-apprentice.com about how it was amazing to me to see how all these "gurus" keep jumping on the bandwagon of whatever product is being launched at the moment. From Jeff Walker's Product Launch Formula through Kaci Kennedy's Pinterest Profits. I am not saying that these are bad products, all I am saying is that they all have the same mentality of just promoting without providing content in the same way that children play football by all running after the ball.

        I have stuck with the interesting content providers and just unsubscribed from those that start to promote products more than providing information. I have no issue with genuine product reviews, I am only referring to those lazy people that just say "buy this! It make you $xxxxxx in 5 seconds" and an ugly affiliate link.
        Signature

        I am still learning the ropes to internet marketing.
        I am recording my experiences at www.internet-apprentice.com as a log of my progress and for reference and inspiration to anyone on the same level or below.

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  • Profile picture of the author kstavert
    Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post

    Hey guys,

    Allow me to be the first to say I have next to ZERO marketing experience.

    I DO however, have extensive sales experience and would happily go toe to toe with anyone when it comes to making a sales call. (But that's neither here nor there, just wanted to toot my horn for a sentence or two lol)

    The point of this post is for the experienced marketers out there that have a large list and are sending out offers and other letters on a regular basis. My hopes is to offer a little insight to your methods.

    I've purchased a few WSOs as I'm sure many of us have. Some of them have been wonderful, others have been garbage. That's not their fault, it's mine for clicking "Buy Now."

    In doing these purchases, I've gotten on a few mailing lists and receive emails from them regularly. Thankfully, I use a specific email address to receive these so it doesn't clutter up more important messages.

    I was just going through my account to browse through the messages and I realized something...

    ...these guys are sending me "offers" and "GROUND BREAKING SECRET RAWWWRRR" emails daily. Sometimes once or twice a day.

    Now, whether these offers work or not is beside the point. The point of this email is that I don't even read these things anymore. I see that "John Smith" has sent me another email (Name is an example only, any John Smiths on here I apologize hah) and I just delete it.

    Why?

    Because my goal is to make money online and help people. When someone sends me daily offers of how to make money online and sends me daily emails of "the next best secret!" they start to lose credibility. In fact, out of the 5-10 people that send me emails, there is only 1 that I pay attention to. Why? Because they send me an email every week or two. And those emails aren't promoting the next best secret. They are talking to ME. They are making me THINK about ME. They are asking me the right questions and digging into the heart of the matters that matter to me.

    I could care less how John made 500 dollars a day if the day before he just sent me an email how Sally made 200 dollars a day. It begins to blur over and ultimately costs them any potential future purchases from me.

    So to the experienced marketers out there... ease up on the emails. Re-think your strategy and make sure you're delivering your readers quality reads. So far from what I've seen it seems they are throwing poo at a wall and hoping some of it sticks.

    Now, some of you may say "Dude, I make XXX dollars a day doing this. I know what I'm doing." and that may be true. But think about how much more you could make if you start showing your list that you have quality content over quantity.

    Just my two cents.

    Thoughts?
    How very awesome of you...

    I have a number of "garbage" email addresses
    that I use for this purpose...

    I fell prey to the "enter your email address here
    so that we can keep you informed of updates"
    a couple of times...

    until I went through the messages that I was
    receiving from these people - sometimes 3 and 4
    a day - and not one of the had an update in them

    GONE.....

    I can just hear them jumping up and down, rubbing
    their hands together... 'I got another one"...

    Well, NO MORE....

    The amount of SH*T that is flowing through the ether
    is astounding... It's a wonder we aren't all buried in it.

    Thanks for your post...
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  • Profile picture of the author matchoo77
    Heartfelt OP there. Also want to tell you that you have a great writing style...if you can make ppl chuckle and get your point across well you should be able to write some nice sales copy.

    But as far as convincing these guys with big lists to stop pumping out the "new secret method unveiled" emails twice a day....good luck with that. It seems pretty simple and almost common sense to treat your list with respect, but they just don't care. So whatever...they can have their horrible conversion rates on a bazillion emails. I 'll take high conversion rates on offers that I truly like and can add value to.
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  • Profile picture of the author louie6925
    Another phrase I hate, is "Each subscriber is worth $1 per month"........complete and utter BS!!!

    Each subscriber is only worth the value of the content sent! ...period!

    Too many people think "wow if I get 2000 subscribers, I will get $2000 per month" therefore they think they just need to build the list and thats the hard work done!

    What nobody actually tells you is...building the list is the easy part! thats why everyone is teaching it! the hard work starts after!
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    Feel free to chat if you live in the UK I may have something for you!
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  • Profile picture of the author JoeyXoto
    There are two different kinds of marketers when it comes down to email marketing; one will bombard their list with offer after offer, hoping to get a few catches every time they send an email out; they probably get a few bites every time, and that’s fine. But why do that when you can build a real relationship with these people, give them free guidance and offers… OVER Deliver on great content, and your readers will love you; in fact they will WAIT for your next email… This is where the big money sits.

    It’s not complicated really. If people just provide great free content, your subscribers will love you for it. This is true of any business. Go beyond the expectations and you will please people; make those emails about THEM, tell them what they can do to improve their life, FREE….. This will build trust between you, and once that’s done, you can recommend products, and get better CTRs & sales.

    Hope that’s useful.

    Joey
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  • Profile picture of the author Susan A
    It is indeed that email marketing has been slow lately, and the one to blame is the desperate marketeer who stop being creative. When I read an email, I hope it helps me and it must be about me, not about you or your product. But by helping me, I will also helping you eventually. Why is this simple concept is so hard be implemented.
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post

    I've purchased a few WSOs as I'm sure many of us have. Some of them have been wonderful, others have been garbage. That's not their fault, it's mine for clicking "Buy Now."
    I stopped reading after this. That's like saying it's not the thief's fault for picking my pocket, it's my fault for wearing pants. If someone is knowingly selling garbage by telling you it's wonderful, it absolutely IS their fault.
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    • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      I stopped reading after this. That's like saying it's not the thief's fault for picking my pocket, it's my fault for wearing pants. If someone is knowingly selling garbage by telling you it's wonderful, it absolutely IS their fault.
      That may be the case. If you read further through this thread, I did explain it a little more. I was mainly stating that their product wasn't necessarily garbage in terms of information. It was just not too useful in how it was portrayed.
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