Paypal sucks. Screwed for no reason after 5 years of business... Need alternative.

188 replies
EDIT: THIS THREAD IS 7 MONTHS OLD. MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE IT... OR MEMBERS PLEASE STOP BUMPING IT. THANKS!

So, I was at dinner last night, when it came time to pay I reached for my Paypal card... It was declined even though my account had a few grand in it.

I go online, my account is limited, but it gives no reason. I call customer support this morning, they say they can't tell me why it's limited but I'll get an email shortly.

The email says "We're parting ways" and gives no reason. I call customer support back, who tell me to refer to the email.

Bottom line, my account is dead after 5 years and thousands of successful transactions. There where no disputes, no suspicious activity on the account. I've done nothing wrong.

First, let this serve as a warning to everyone who relies on Paypal... It can disappear instantly for NO reason whatsoever.

My account has had thousands of dollars going through it every month for years. I've never had one single unresolved dispute or unhappy buyer. I did absolutely nothing wrong.

I have heard the horror stories and always assumed that the people who did "nothing wrong" did something wrong... Well, I was wrong.

As much as I'd like to get mad about this... They're holding a big chunk of my money, I'm looking at it as a wake up call.

Any company who can legally take every dime in your account without warning for no reason isn't worth doing business with anyway.

%#$@ them, back to work...

I'm a copywriter, any suggestions on a good way to take payments online?

Don't keep all of your eggs in one basket... Especially when that basket has a reputation of closing accounts for no reason... It does happen.

Thanks,

-Scott
#alternative #business #paypal #reason #screwed #sucks #years
  • Profile picture of the author SolomonHuey
    2checkout is a nice option and relatively cheap. You can also try google checkout, I've never used it before though.

    Sorry to hear about your troubles.

    Solomon Huey
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  • Profile picture of the author WinsonYeung
    Wow, is there anyway to file a dispute or lawsuit ?
    if you need to take some action, you can by submitting a report to
    Ripoff Report: By Consumers, For Consumers
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    • Profile picture of the author helpmePPC
      Originally Posted by WinsonYeung View Post

      Wow, is there anyway to file a dispute or lawsuit ?
      if you need to take some action, you can by submitting a report to
      Ripoff Report: By Consumers, For Consumers
      No one should use that website. That guy is an extortion artist who uses unethical SEO tactics to beat your name up. It destroys a lot of businesses and people. That company does nothing but damage. The little help it does do is far out-weighed by crushing the little guy with their unethical SEO methods to hurt other people without proof.

      Look up the owner of that site.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshua N. Rabon
      scottspfd82 that sucks, but I'm glad to see you see the positive side. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

      Here's a merchant account company endorsed by Armand Morin, Ray Edwards, David Garfinkel, Yanik Silver and others, for understanding the needs of internet marketers and avoiding situations like yours-- Merchant Account | Credit Card Merchant Account | PowerPay


      Originally Posted by WinsonYeung View Post

      Wow, is there anyway to file a dispute or lawsuit ?
      if you need to take some action, you can by submitting a report to
      Ripoff Report: By Consumers, For Consumers
      FYI, there is quite a bit of evidence that "Ripoff Report" is an extortion scheme. It does have legitimate complaints, but it is said that it then solicits money from the companies in exchange for clearing them on the complaint. A lot of companies give in because they get high search engine rankings.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    I would love to sue them. Not worth the time though, I'm guessing their TOS lays everything out pretty clear.

    It's a good way to see how much I relied on them. I think in the bigger picture this will be a good thing.

    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author Hackbridge
      How can they take thousands of dollars off you for no good reason? And you not demand it back in a court of law?

      Is there a lawyer present? Perhaps that would be a great niche to work in? Suing Paypal!

      Search online "Sue Paypal" and see what you get.

      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      I would love to sue them. Not worth the time though, I'm guessing their TOS lays everything out pretty clear.

      It's a good way to see how much I relied on them. I think in the bigger picture this will be a good thing.

      -Scott
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    • I have herd of this before, but never believed it until I did a search on Google. Just type in "fozen paypal" and you will see many bad stories.

      I would try AlertPay.com, Google Check out, or SafePay, they are all free and very safe to use.

      I hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    I wouldn't waste your time with sites like RipoffReport, which is just people bitching about things.

    Did their email really say "We're parting ways"? Seems like odd language.

    There had to be something that happened to cause this, but figuring it out is impossible from the info provided.

    Can you log into the account?
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  • Profile picture of the author billbarrett
    Hi Scott,

    I am sorry to hear that. I use PayPal, too and your post is not a good news for me (((

    I would use 2Checkout.com as an alternative. I don't know how's their customer support, though.

    You could try also 1shoppingcart.com

    Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    Here's what the email says....

    We have reviewed your PayPal Account, and due to the excessive risk
    involved, we would like to begin parting ways in a manner that is least
    disruptive to your business.
    And then goes on to tell me I can refund customers or wait 180 days for my money.

    The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice.

    So, I was thinking maybe my account was hijacked... I asked Paypal about that and got no answer.

    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author billbarrett
      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      Here's what the email says....

      And then goes on to tell me I can refund customers or wait 180 days for my money.

      The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice.

      So, I was thinking maybe my account was hijacked... I asked Paypal about that and got no answer.

      -Scott


      Oooooh, PayPal really sucks. (( Their customer support is a total s**t. Once I was waiting more than two months for an answer and then I've got an automated mail that said noting. (
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      Here's what the email says....



      And then goes on to tell me I can refund customers or wait 180 days for my money.

      The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice.

      So, I was thinking maybe my account was hijacked... I asked Paypal about that and got no answer.

      -Scott
      Would you mind telling me what you were selling that was so risky? :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
        Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

        Would you mind telling me what you were selling that was so risky? :confused:
        Nothing. That's the point. There is absolutely no reason for this to happen. No risky transactions. Nothing I shouldn't be doing.
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        • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
          Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

          Nothing. That's the point. There is absolutely no reason for this to happen. No risky transactions. Nothing I shouldn't be doing.
          Something doesn't add up for this to be happening.

          It could be they checked your credit...and found something in there...but they should be telling you that.

          Call back, and ask to speak to someone who has a clue. The first person on the line is usually a Jack in the Box reject who can't do anything for you. Go up the chain until you get a proper answer, and don't stop until you do.
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh View Post

      ....

      The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice...

      -Scott
      Seems to me that this is what raised the red flag(s).

      You may not want to hear this.. those that are convinced that PayPal is out to get them; (even though they've grown consistently over the past decade -- and they couldn't do that without people actually using them for more than just sending funds to friends); may not want to hear this.... but...

      Unless you can show a distinct two way paper trail of all your transactions; anything can be deemed fraud and/or high risk. There's no accounting; no records.

      Many people make the mistake that their PayPal transaction history is their record; but its not. The PayPal history is a reference to each transaction.

      This is why they give you the facilities to invoice people. AND they provide seller protection on digital goods IF you ONLY accept payments from individuals with their address verified with PayPal.

      The amount of a transaction doesn't trigger an action from the risk department; only a flag. If the basic diagnostics does not return the proper data to change that red flag to a yellow flag.. then probability management takes over.

      Unfortunately, the probability that you're a scammer of some capacity is greater than that of you being a legitimate business model. Therefore, it is up to you, (since its your business), to differentiate yourself from the average scammer. PayPal gives you the facilities within their system to help you do this.

      - Verify your address(es)
      - Verify your phone number(s)
      - Verify your email address(es)
      - Attach & Verify your bank account(s)
      - Attach & Verify your CC (can also be a bank debit card with a Visa/MC logo)
      - Accept transactions from ONLY those with verified information in their PayPal accounts
      - Do NOT accept eChecks
      - Allow for 'PayPal Account creation optional'
      - Enable 'auto-return'
      - USE the IPN services as another source of record keeping outside of PayPal
      - Participate in the PayPal (balance) money market fund (they actually pay you)

      And if you're still paranoid; do weekly withdraws to the same bank account, (as another level of security you can transfer those funds to another account within the same bank using the banks system).

      The only thing wrong with PayPal is the fact that they don't fully explain all of the ways to safeguard yourself, your money and your account with their settings.

      It would be best for everyone using PayPal to simply go through their account settings and set your accounts up so that YOU are "accepting" the least amount of risk. This is the first way to keep you pretty much under the risk management department's radar.

      Another mistake many of us make is thinking we should receive some type of preferential treatment just because we're a long standing customer; even if that preferential treatment puts the business giving the preferential treatment to us at risk... and if it got shut down by the Govn. due to giving out such preferential treatment we'd just turn our heads to the next business and shrug it off as "not my problem".

      Yet, put yourself in the shoes of PayPal. Would you take on the extra customer service liability giving out preferential treatment to every Tom, Dick & Harry or would you dole out undercover premium level customer support to those that were proactive enough to seek it out?
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBooks
    Sorry to hear

    which ever payment processor you choose, you should still have a paypal acocunt for thise times when not having paypal means no sale at all...

    also check out: https://www.alertpay.com
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    • Profile picture of the author JeffreyM
      Please make an updated post after the 180 days had expired. I'm curious as how it all turns out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    I have seen paypal do this to countless people yet I still use them.

    I am looking for other alternatives today. Thanks for the wake up call.
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  • Profile picture of the author anth.elias
    I have been with Paypal for about 3 years, so far so good but I have never been 100% comfortable with them, I just pray and hope that everything will be ok.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    I would not take this lying down. For me, it would mean close to the end of
    my business until I found another payment processor, and then having to
    change all my DLGuard products from PayPal to something else.

    I would get a lawyer and fight this with every drop of my blood and make
    an example of these people just like that one guy did with Google.

    You don't have to take this crap.

    I know I wouldn't.
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      I hear that, I'm |---| this close to taking these F-ers to court myself! Had enough of their crap for the last 6 weeks.

      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


      I would get a lawyer and fight this with every drop of my blood and make
      an example of these people just like that one guy did with Google.

      You don't have to take this crap.

      I know I wouldn't.
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    • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      I would not take this lying down. For me, it would mean close to the end of
      my business until I found another payment processor, and then having to
      change all my DLGuard products from PayPal to something else.

      I would get a lawyer and fight this with every drop of my blood and make
      an example of these people just like that one guy did with Google.

      You don't have to take this crap.

      I know I wouldn't.
      I totally agree with you man! it does seem pretty overwhelming to sue them though, because they are a huge company, but you know what, if you have the time and the stress endurance and patients, then it's worth it.

      I really like they cut their customer support. Never had a problem with them before.

      Sebastian
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    Another IM'er I know posted on how paypal shut down his account for no apparent reason during the holidays, costing him thousands in sales.
    That's what people always say. Of course it's not possible they actually did break some rule, is it?


    The fact that PayPal mentioned "risk" tells me you must have been getting lots of chargebacks or they don't like what you are selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    That's what people always say. Of course it's not possible they actually did break some rule, is it?


    The fact that PayPal mentioned "risk" tells me you must have been getting lots of chargebacks or they don't like what you are selling.
    I used to think the same thing man... The people saying they did nothing did something.

    I haven't had a dispute or issued a refund in months. The only thing I've been selling is writing services, and all of my customers are happy.

    You don't have to take this crap.

    I know I wouldn't.
    They got an ear full on the phone. I don't know what I can do to be honest. I don't think whining or talking to them will help. Hiring a lawyer may help but I doubt it.

    Right now, I'm just figuring out how to pull my money out and finding another way to take payments.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      I used to think the same thing man... The people saying they did nothing did something.

      I haven't had a dispute or issued a refund in months. The only thing I've been selling is writing services, and all of my customers are happy.



      They got an ear full on the phone. I don't know what I can do to be honest. I don't think whining or talking to them will help. Hiring a lawyer may help but I doubt it.

      Right now, I'm just figuring out how to pull my money out and finding another way to take payments.


      Your answers are in this thread...

      1. Setup a few other payment alternatives like AlertPay and 2Checkout
      2. Get a lawyer to get your funds out of PayPal.

      That's it...

      I just got my AlertPay Business Account all setup in the last few minutes... (just in case)
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      • Profile picture of the author NPmaster
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        • Profile picture of the author o_brient
          Originally Posted by NPmaster View Post

          WOW they hold your funds also? I would fight
          for all your money back plus the interest they
          are earning on it now since they have taken
          control of it.

          I guess you might have been selling stuff and
          after payment your buyers were transferred to
          an OTO or another one time salespage.

          If you have been doing this PayPal will close
          down your account once they find out.
          NPMaster - can you explain the above? I haven't heard of any problems with Paypal and OTO's - can you point out some info in the TOS or other relevant sources?

          If true, it is a problem for any marketer as OTO's are ubiquitous in every industry.

          All the best,
          Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Soos
    From what I understand about them, they are not a bank or a service that is required to play by the same rules as even a CC agency. Their TOS pretty much allows them to freeze all of your assets and keep them "while they investigate". Thing is...during the six months they have your cash...they don't have to tell you what, why or how they are investigating. Easier for them to let the dust settle. Try making your affiliate payouts with dust!

    On a different note...same goes for those who have "mail drops" that have their mail delivered. They could take your mail and toss it and you have no recourse with the postal authorities. When you signed up, you gave them cart blanche to accept mail in your behalf. Their TOS usually absolves them of any responsibility for your mail...heck of a deal huh?

    Peter Soos
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  • Profile picture of the author new guy
    Was your account just a normal account or the "merchant account"?
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I have read all the horror stories as well and I don't know
    and don't want to find out. So I don't accept any payment
    over $3,000 through Paypal for my copywriting services.

    And I don't keep anything over $1,000 in my paypal
    account before I do a bank transfer. In this way
    I try to play it safe.

    And 2CO has kept some money for me after I closed
    my account. This money should have been sent to
    me months ago and I never got it. Not enough to
    sweat over anyway.

    That's why for my copywriting services I accept
    mainly wire transfers, bank deposits or a check
    in the mail.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
      My observation from hearing these stories recently is that there were several large transactions ($1000 or more) in a short period of time where there was no product, digital or physical, ordered in the transactions. Essentially a money transfer so far as PayPal is concerned.

      Their security concern is two-fold.

      First, that such transactions may be an attempt to launder money for drugs or terrorism. They are required by US law to monitor for this. They may find it easier to shut your account down if there's suspicious activity though.

      Second, they may suspect that you're running an illegal business such as a pyramid or matrix scheme, gambling or the like. They could also think that you're violating their TOS by take MLM payments through their system.

      I'd recommend that if you're taking PayPal payments that you do them through a transaction interface like e-Junkie. If you take anything over $1000 in a lump sum you might want to consider a different payment process.

      And, like Ray said, limit your exposure by withdrawing down to $1000 or so at most. This will leave enough in your account for recurring payments, like web hosting, and to cover unexpected chargebacks but not enough to cause you financial difficulties.
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      • Profile picture of the author profitclinic
        It's actually impossible for most people to trade using a PayPal business account without being in technical breach of its Acceptable Use Policy, which is deliberately vague, sweeping and poorly drafted.

        Combined with its basic practice of not letting its right hand know what its left hand is doing, and saying nothing in case it gets sued, there's a compelling argument for some kind of class action against PayPal, in the right jurisdiction, on the basis of restraint of trade, tortious interference with business or unconscionable conduct by a big business against small businesses (abuse of marketing power).

        John Counsel
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  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    PayPal is regulated by the FSA (Financial Services Authority) in the UK so UK customers have a powerful ally in such an event - is there no similar regulatory body in USA?

    Also, since PayPal are the ones claiming that 'risk' is the problem, they need to substantiate that risk. It isn't as though they have suddenly decided to close your account. The email quote indicates that they are prepared to carry your business until you find an alternative payment processor but that the risk inherrent in their business with you is too high for them to entertain.

    Maybe there are aspects to your business that experience has shown them are unwise. The 180 days delay in passing on payments to you is an indication that they are expecting to see a major refund level. This in itself would not normally be assessed as risk but they obviously also feel that the refund level could also affect their own position in the market.

    It is worth sending them an email copied to a lawyer asking them to clarify their position.
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    • Profile picture of the author doctfeelgood
      Originally Posted by artwebster View Post

      PayPal is regulated by the FSA (Financial Services Authority) in the UK so UK customers have a powerful ally in such an event - is there no similar regulatory body in USA?

      Also, since PayPal are the ones claiming that 'risk' is the problem, they need to substantiate that risk. It isn't as though they have suddenly decided to close your account. The email quote indicates that they are prepared to carry your business until you find an alternative payment processor but that the risk inherrent in their business with you is too high for them to entertain.

      Maybe there are aspects to your business that experience has shown them are unwise. The 180 days delay in passing on payments to you is an indication that they are expecting to see a major refund level. This in itself would not normally be assessed as risk but they obviously also feel that the refund level could also affect their own position in the market.

      It is worth sending them an email copied to a lawyer asking them to clarify their position.
      Up until last October Paypal was not regulated by the FSA in the UK? A client of mine had more or less the same issue as Scott and they just freezed his account and held his money for 180 days. The reason they hold it for this length of time is that if a customer wants their money back they have to pay it back ( paypal does if six months or before) if it is longer then six months and up to 12 months the credit card company guarantees the payment if the seller is not available.
      When i found out that paypal was not regulated it made me realise that if they suddenly decided to keep everyone money and do a runner you would not stand a chance in getting your money back. Caveat Emptor!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    This sucks royally, Scott.

    Obviously, it's a complete pain in the ass to have to now look into a traditional merchant account for C/C transactions and start collecting your payments for your writing via check/fed-ex to keep cash-flow going. But that's where you are...

    It's not fair, and it's not right. But, you seem to have your eye on the ball about it and are taking the pragmatic approach -- smart.

    I'd also be writing a BLISTERING letter right now to the California Attorney General, cc'ed to PayPal's dispute resolution department, demanding specific information relating to the unreasonable seizure of your funds and the specific activities that led to PayPal's actions.

    Best,

    Brian
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  • Profile picture of the author shane_k
    Get a lawyer! Sue them for your money they are holding, loss of interest, damages, lost earnings, lawyer and court fees, and whatever else you can.


    You say it is not worth it, and it is this reason that Paypal gets away with it. Don't let them get away with it.


    Shane_K
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  • Profile picture of the author jamsferguson
    Ok, after reading this I'm thinking of switching to 2co, but Raydal got scr-wed but them too. anybody else got any feedback on 2co or AlertPay?
    Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I've been with paypal for over a decade now. And to be honest, they have done this to me several times in the past. - The first time is the most devastating. But like you, I was selling an honest product with a very small percentage of refunds or complaints. However, out of the many people that work at paypal, I think that there are some people that work at paypal that are leery of any type of digitally delivered products. They believe it to be "too risky" because it's not a physical product that can be properly tracked. It's the same type of thinking that got digitally delivered items banned from ebay.

    Now there are a few ways of addressing this problem. The first thing I would do is write out a well written email, explaining your years of problem free service to your customers, and begging them to let you back on. Continue to email them with this same email every day (maybe even several times per day). The point of this is that there are many different attitudes to the rules working at paypal. You may eventually get your email to a person that sees it to be as ridiculous as you do and help you to get reinstated.

    Sometimes this doesn't work however - then you just sign up w/ a new account. In order to do this, you need to do a few things.

    1. change up your personal info just a bit, so that it doesn't trigger any of paypal's duplicate account software. So for example maybe add an initial or your middle name to your first name, and maybe spell your street name a bit differently - like spell out drive instead of dr.

    2. Have a different bank account then the one you used in the previous paypal account.

    3. Start taking your money out more regularly. Never leave money sitting in your paypal account.

    I know that this sounds like something an online thief would do, but believe me, I've only ever sold honest products. It's paypal that doesn't play by normal banking or financing rules. They can and will freeze your account - if the wrong person thinks that your products are "too risky". The only way to protect yourself, and still use their monopolistic services, is to also bend their rules a bit. It also pays to have several accounts running at once.

    My most recent accounts have been running fine now for a couple of years. However I do not feel guilty in the least bending paypal's rules. They bend them all of the time themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    That's terrible and scary. No disputes, no nothing and they just shut it down? And they lose all that commission they've been making.

    Very strange and scary. I'm scared of paypal. They're a necessary evil right now.

    I had paypal on a site that was against their TOS though I didn't know it. So my account was put under review but they didn't close it.

    Seems they would at least give you an explanation. You deserve to know why.

    I'm scared something like this will happen to me one day after all the horror stories I've heard Hope not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Micheal Perkins
    Do a search for "merchant account for online business" on Google and find one that you like. I would take the advice of Steve Wagenheim also. Someone sued Google for something very similar when they closed his Adsense account and kept several hundred dollars that was still in his account.

    He sued and won, and Google was forced to pay his account balance. Very similar kind of deal, they claimed he was a risk, but could not give any reason why he was a risk. They tried to keep his funds also.

    The bottom line is, it's illegal. You provided a product or service to your customers. Paypal can not refuse to give you your money. It's called stealing, and despite what their user agreement says, they can not force you to give up money you earned just because their user agreement says they can.
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by Micheal Perkins View Post

      Do a search for "merchant account for online business" on Google and find one that you like. I would take the advice of Steve Wagenheim also. Someone sued Google for something very similar when they closed his Adsense account and kept several hundred dollars that was still in his account.

      He sued and won, and Google was forced to pay his account balance. Very similar kind of deal, they claimed he was a risk, but could not give any reason why he was a risk. They tried to keep his funds also.

      The bottom line is, it's illegal. You provided a product or service to your customers. Paypal can not refuse to give you your money. It's called stealing, and despite what their user agreement says, they can not force you to give up money you earned just because their user agreement says they can.
      Actually - paypal never keeps the money. They may freeze your account, and keep your money for up to 6 months, but you eventually get it back.

      Also they have been sued in the past for this same reason, and I think that they've changed up their TOS just enough to keep them out of trouble for continuing to do it.

      http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/16751.html
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      • Profile picture of the author Rick Wilson
        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        Also they have been sued in the past for this same reason, and I think that they've changed up their TOS just enough to keep them out of trouble for continuing to do it.

        E-Commerce News: News: PayPal Users Sue over Frozen Funds
        Keep in mind that THAT article was back in 2002. I believe that was before eBay bought PayPal. The TOS has been changed around a bit since then, I'm sure. eBay is "deep pockets" and they know they can outlast most people's legal fees.

        PayPal did lose a couple legal battles around that time and had to payout to some account holders in a class action award. I know, because I received a few hundred dollars in my account for my share.

        To this day my attorney (a great friend of mine since high school) STILL shakes his head at PP's TOS and can't believe anyone (and me) really uses them when PP has the upper hand.

        I personally don't like PayPal and hate being forced to use them but reality sets in. Fortunately, most monies I receive thru PayPal are affiliate commissions. I'm basically an affiliate marketer and I don't have many of my own products to sell so this doesn't necassarily impact me as much as someone who has their own products.

        Like previously suggested by others, I do regularly withdraw monie from PP to my bank account. I have what I call my "throwaway" bank account. I withdraw from PP to THAT account and then take almost ALL monies out and put in my regular bank account. A pain to do it that way but PP can't take any money back from the "throwaway" account as nothing much is there. ;-)

        I wish you luck in getting it straightened out.


        Rick Wilson aka CorpRebel
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        • Profile picture of the author stevenh512
          Originally Posted by Rick Wilson View Post

          I'm basically an affiliate marketer and I don't have many of my own products to sell so this doesn't necassarily impact me as much as someone who has their own products.
          Actually I'd think it would impact you worse than someone who has their own products. If you have your own product and you lose your Paypal account you always have the option of moving on to other services (Clickbank, 2CO, your own merchant account). If you're an affiliate marketer, unless you're dealing with a company who's willing to pay you by check or direct deposit, you lose your Paypal account and you're dead.. at least until you can set up and verify a new one (assuming you don't get caught by Paypal's "duplicate account filters" and shut down immediately).
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    • Profile picture of the author Shafiq Kamal
      They enjoy interests on the hold money. It's one of their tricks. If you have lots of money in your account, then open lawsuit against them and make an example. Be courage and first to make this example. You will also get lots of publicity. That mean you will be beneficiary too. And we will be glad to publish article with your website link in our blogs about your courage. Go ahead and sue them. Make an example.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas M.
    Keep trying to contact them. They might need some more information from you to see if you are a "real business". They don't just do things to be mean. You need to blame this on the highjackers and scammers that ruine it for everyone else.

    If you guys are thinking "PayPal took my money for no reason and now I have to sue them to get it back". That is just plain stupid. They do NOT do that. They are trying to cover their ass because of the real suckers out there. So ask them what they want verified and you will get your account back up and running.

    I've been using PP since 2000 and have been through it all with them. They want you as a customer but they have to cover their ass too.

    Let me tell you something about 2Checkout. You CAN NOT sell products on multiple domains with ONE account. I'm assuming you have more then one domain right? Then you need to open a fresh account for each domain. Even if it's a $7 report!

    So think about that. And I'm tired of hearing a bunch of cry babies on here ..."PayPal got me... waa waa!... I'm going to sue them bla bla. Some of you need to grow up. Are you really going to let this little freeze blow your whole reputation with PP?

    One time I had 31k froze. I knew why, I handled it and the the account was back to normal. Now I have a designated Account Manager.

    Realize they are at risk for your pleasure. There are 100 million PP accounts people. You will become an Elite client if you work with them. Send them a letter, introduce yourself and let them know you mean real business with them. Call attention to yourself. They are normal people too.

    ok I'm done. Sometimes you guys tick me off.
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  • Profile picture of the author Amitywill
    Scott I feel really bad for you. I've heard about
    this sort of thing happening quite a lot with paypal.

    I use paypal but it's always a good idea to get your
    own merchant account. As some people have already
    said 2checkout is very good.

    Don't take this lying down, nobody should be able to just
    take your money and not give you any reason. I'd contact
    a lawyer if I were you.

    Good luck.

    Will cooper
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  • Profile picture of the author Best Biz Ideas
    Scott,

    Unfortunately, this happens all the time with paypal (and ebay). They don't need a reason and they don't have to explain themselves.

    We had a slightly different situation with ebay/paypal a few years ago involving a counterfeit product from a bad seller and were completely blown off by both ebay & paypal. We got our $300+ refunded ONLY after contacting the District Attorneys in the states of California and Nebraska. They were well aware of the problems with paypal. It took a lot of time and effort, but we got our money back.

    It seems paypal's policy is to grudgingly deal with squeaky wheels and ignore everyone else. If you really feel you have a case and are willing to invest the time necessary, I'd contact the DA's in your home state, CA, and NE and see what happens. You will probably find that the DAs have received numerous complaints about the same problem.

    Regards,
    T.
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  • Profile picture of the author Droopy Dawg
    hey Scott that's terrible news man I feel for you and others that have gone thru this.

    I guess the lesson that we can all learn is to do your due diligence NOW, and find a "back-up plan" in case Paypal decides to randomly close you/our accounts.

    2checout sounds real good right about now...
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    • Profile picture of the author Stacey Wockenfuss
      I'm sorry to hear about your Paypal issues. That really sucks. I've had an account for a little over 5 years now with a few minor issues. I have also worked with several internet marketers who have had their accounts frozen. Its usually because the unusual amount of transactions and/or you are selling digital products. A couple things I have learned

      1) They will release your money after 180 days and they will release it sooner if you work with them. You need to be really diligent and get a contact over there at Paypal.
      2) If you do a lot of transactions and you have a lot of money in your account, you can get your own account rep. Most people don't realize this, but if you are a bigwig, its a must. You can call them up when you are going to have an unusually large amount of transactions such as a product launch so there are no issues
      3) I recently had an account hold but it was due to fraudulent activity (or so they claim). They just wanted to verify I was who I said I was and my street address.

      Apparently Paypal doesn't like the fact that many of us are going wireless (don't have a landline). But it was cleared up within a week. Theres still hope. Just hang in there and try and do your best to meet their criteria. You will most likely get your money back eventually but if they still don't want to help you, then take legal action.

      Stacey
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      • Profile picture of the author koolwarrior
        Banned
        Have you ever noticed that even the GURUs don't use Paypal for those $1997 courses they pump down your throat?

        Gee, I wonder why?


        You're charging for copyrighting services, dude...and a pretty penny at that. Why the hell would you use paypal for that?

        You're making them pay for an product that can't be accessed after they pay. If you're going to charge for something they can't get right away, it better be a physical one...or else they'll shut you down thinking you're laundering money.

        Hell, if I were running a CC-like service, and I saw thousands of bucks flowing thru, and no one's getting a thing (physical/digital), I'd shut you down too, to be hoenst.

        I wouldn't want the feds raiding my office over something someone was doing that NO ONE knows about.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
          Originally Posted by koolwarrior View Post

          You're making them pay for an product that can't be accessed after they pay. If you're going to charge for something they can't get right away, it better be a physical one...or else they'll shut you down thinking you're laundering money.

          Hell, if I were running a CC-like service, and I saw thousands of bucks flowing thru, and no one's getting a thing (physical/digital), I'd shut you down too, to be hoenst.

          I wouldn't want the feds raiding my office over something someone was doing that NO ONE knows about.
          Wow, that's over the top! Did you realize PayPal was created for the purpose of sending money to friends?

          It's commonly used for paying affiliate commissions and paying for services. "Service" is even one of the categories you can choose when using the "send money" feature.

          If I were selling services for 4 figures or higher, I might avoid Paypal to avoid their fees and so on, but there's nothing wrong as far as their TOS is concerned with using it for things like that.

          Ditto for digital products- why would their buttons have a field for a download page if the service was not supposed to be used for selling digital products?
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    UPDATE:

    After HOURS of talking to several Paypal reps, here's the verdict...

    Their fraud team has determined that I pose a "high risk"...

    I went all the way up the customer service chain. The lady I talked to was nice and understanding...

    I said "So, you're telling me that after 5 years of being a loyal customer... Who stays well within acceptable use policy, who has had thousands of dollars every month going through their account for years without issue, that you're shutting my account down and not even giving me a reason why?"

    The answer was basically "Yes, that's right".

    I had her manually go through my account activity for the last few months. I asked her to point out anything that may have raised a red flag. She said the account looks perfectly normal... No disputes or claims...

    So I asked who to talk to about reviewing my account and being considered to have it reinstated...

    The answer was that the decision is made by the fraud team, and that all decisions are final.

    Bottom line, I am permanently banned from Paypal for no apparent reason...

    I found out through some research that all accounts are manually reviewed by fraud specialists, and the ultimate decision is made by an individual.

    There is no way to contact these people for a reason why.

    I HIGHLY recommend everyone who relies on Paypal to get a backup plan in place TODAY.

    Believe me, Paypal accounts don't come any lower risk than mine. I wasn't doing anything even remotely "shady" and I have years of history with them. If you're thinking "it won't happen to me" don't bet on it.

    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      UPDATE:

      After HOURS of talking to several Paypal reps, here's the verdict...

      Their fraud team has determined that I pose a "high risk"...

      I went all the way up the customer service chain. The lady I talked to was nice and understanding...

      I said "So, you're telling me that after 5 years of being a loyal customer... Who stays well within acceptable use policy, who has had thousands of dollars every month going through their account for years without issue, that you're shutting my account down and not even giving me a reason why?"

      The answer was basically "Yes, that's right".

      I had her manually go through my account activity for the last few months. I asked her to point out anything that may have raised a red flag. She said the account looks perfectly normal... No disputes or claims...

      So I asked who to talk to about reviewing my account and being considered to have it reinstated...

      The answer was that the decision is made by the fraud team, and that all decisions are final.

      Bottom line, I am permanently banned from Paypal for no apparent reason...

      I found out through some research that all accounts are manually reviewed by fraud specialists, and the ultimate decision is made by an individual.

      There is no way to contact these people for a reason why.

      I HIGHLY recommend everyone who relies on Paypal to get a backup plan in place TODAY.

      Believe me, Paypal accounts don't come any lower risk than mine. I wasn't doing anything even remotely "shady" and I have years of history with them. If you're thinking "it won't happen to me" don't bet on it.

      -Scott
      Scott:

      There may be another way to do this.

      Talk to a lawyer, and see you can get a judges order demanding paypal release any records they have on you, including the fraud investigation they conducted.

      That shouldn't cost too much, and it can help shed some light on what happened and why. From there, you and a lawyer can decide if you have any legal grounds on which to sue.

      This should be interesting.
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmonk
      Thanks for sharing Scott.

      Probably at one point in time a large biz becomes so much of a machine, so it's easier for them to rip you off than take a closer look at their own biz processes and rules.

      If you prove them wrong, you'll create a precedent that they CAN be wrong... which they are not willing to accept.
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    • Profile picture of the author esr
      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      UPDATE:

      After HOURS of talking to several Paypal reps, here's the verdict...

      Their fraud team has determined that I pose a "high risk"...

      I went all the way up the customer service chain. The lady I talked to was nice and understanding...

      I said "So, you're telling me that after 5 years of being a loyal customer... Who stays well within acceptable use policy, who has had thousands of dollars every month going through their account for years without issue, that you're shutting my account down and not even giving me a reason why?"

      The answer was basically "Yes, that's right".

      I had her manually go through my account activity for the last few months. I asked her to point out anything that may have raised a red flag. She said the account looks perfectly normal... No disputes or claims...

      So I asked who to talk to about reviewing my account and being considered to have it reinstated...

      The answer was that the decision is made by the fraud team, and that all decisions are final.

      Bottom line, I am permanently banned from Paypal for no apparent reason...

      I found out through some research that all accounts are manually reviewed by fraud specialists, and the ultimate decision is made by an individual.

      There is no way to contact these people for a reason why.

      I HIGHLY recommend everyone who relies on Paypal to get a backup plan in place TODAY.

      Believe me, Paypal accounts don't come any lower risk than mine. I wasn't doing anything even remotely "shady" and I have years of history with them. If you're thinking "it won't happen to me" don't bet on it.

      -Scott
      After reading this reply from Paypal, NOW I'm worried.

      I used to work in the fraud department for Cingular Wireless. "Suspicious" accounts were brought to our attention via a software program, not a person. If an account fit the criteria for a "red flag" we had to investigate it.

      And, it was up to ME to cancel a cell phone account or not. I had no experience, was making a mere $14 an hour and had the power, with the click of my mouse, to cancel someone's cell phone account with no supervisor input or questions asked.

      If I was in a bad mood, or had just had a customer yell at me, do you think it NEVER played into my decisions?

      Scary that it sounds like Paypal is doing the same thing, but with something much more important than a cell phone account.

      Thanks for the heads up Scott, and I am truly sorry this happened to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      UPDATE:

      After HOURS of talking to several Paypal reps, here's the verdict...

      Their fraud team has determined that I pose a "high risk"...

      I went all the way up the customer service chain. The lady I talked to was nice and understanding...

      I said "So, you're telling me that after 5 years of being a loyal customer... Who stays well within acceptable use policy, who has had thousands of dollars every month going through their account for years without issue, that you're shutting my account down and not even giving me a reason why?"

      The answer was basically "Yes, that's right".

      I had her manually go through my account activity for the last few months. I asked her to point out anything that may have raised a red flag. She said the account looks perfectly normal... No disputes or claims...

      So I asked who to talk to about reviewing my account and being considered to have it reinstated...

      The answer was that the decision is made by the fraud team, and that all decisions are final.

      Bottom line, I am permanently banned from Paypal for no apparent reason...

      I found out through some research that all accounts are manually reviewed by fraud specialists, and the ultimate decision is made by an individual.

      There is no way to contact these people for a reason why.

      I HIGHLY recommend everyone who relies on Paypal to get a backup plan in place TODAY.

      Believe me, Paypal accounts don't come any lower risk than mine. I wasn't doing anything even remotely "shady" and I have years of history with them. If you're thinking "it won't happen to me" don't bet on it.

      -Scott
      Damn Scott...I had this EXACT same conversation with several Paypal reps a few years ago. And I mean EXACT. Its like a bad rerun of an old twighlight zone episode.

      Everything is the same...I had a 6 year business account in good standing, the people I talked to looked at my account and a couple even said they were 'very surprised' that this happened, but unfortunately they couldn't do anything about it because it was in the AUP's hands now.

      And of course, you can't talk to the AUP department on the phone...only via email, and they definitely won't respond to any emails.

      Its almost scary how identical my conversations with them were. Spot on.

      Anyone who gives you the old 'well, where there is smoke, there's fire, you were doing something wrong' crap just doesn't really know whats going on. I used to think the same way until it happened to me. They'll continue to think the same way until it happens to them. Its human nature.

      Its pretty much their automated spam filter. As anyone knows, even legit emails get caught in spam filters. When it does, you are toast, no questions asked, do not pass go, do not collect $200. People just can't comprehend this until it actually happens to them. Until then, they will of course say that there just has to be more to the story than you are giving.

      And the WORST responses are the ones who say "Well, I have my own Paypal rep. I just call them and they take care of everything".

      Sorry to say, thats not the case. Once you get the ban hammer, you do NOT have a Paypal rep, period, end of story.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    You're charging for copyrighting services, dude...and a pretty penny at that. Why the hell would you use paypal for that?
    Point taken. I guess I learned my lesson.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    Scott - been there, I had this happen to me last year. Same thing - 'we are parting ways' and it didn't matter how much I tried to sort it out with them they just wont listen. Once they make up their mind that they are 'parting ways' then they don't listen to a word you say.

    I used alertpay for a while, but I was doing subscriptions and they just didn't work for subscriptions. I haven't tried any other payment processor but there was a good thread on here yesterday about Paymate - they are supposed to be very good.

    It sucks that they can just keep your money, this happened to me in November, my 180 days isn't up yet, but I refunded most of the money in there and some of my customer paid me again through other methods.

    There are ways to get around it and get yourself another Paypal account - unfortunately they are the biggest and most used processor. I also found while I had alertpay as my processor my sales really dropped.

    I use PayDotCom now for all my Paypal buttons - they are less likely to stuff you around when you are going through their 'best customer' with PayDotCom. That does mean a little more fees involved with each payment received as you have fees from PayDotCom and Paypal, but its worth that extra protection I think.

    I know when it happened to me that there were people that just didn't believe me that I had done nothing wrong. I actually had one customer that was really nasty and assumed I was a scammer because of it and she actually started contacting my other customers and bad mouthing me, I had a heap of customers then asking for refunds all because of this one customers reaction to my paypal account being 'limited'. It really can ruin your business, my business is still not back up to where it was in November before this happened.

    So all those sceptics that think he must have done something wrong - no he musn't have! Paypal do this and they can do it to anyone and you don't have to do anything wrong for it to happen.

    Good luck Scott, I hope you get your business back on track quickly.

    Sheryl
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    • Profile picture of the author kazute
      Paypal Suck, they are forever costing me money, Bast#rds
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      • Profile picture of the author Sparklesperson
        Get yourself a merchant account. Yes, it has fees, but it won't be as high as PP. Do your due diligence there too, have a backup, and make sure those companies are GOOD with your service before you start up.
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      • Profile picture of the author vsl.online
        Hey, I heard paypal is banning (or something similar) accounts from receiving mass payments now. I actually had 3 friends who experienced that already.

        What are they up to? They don't want us to earn too?
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      • Profile picture of the author OmarMartin
        Dude...

        Don't even get me started on this topic! I was recently a victim of fraud... Try this one on for size... A bunch of hackers ran a phishing scam for cc#'s then they sign up as affiliates to sell several of my products through a widely known affiliate management site. Next they start buying the products through their own affiliate links with the stolen card #'s!

        I caught on within 30 days and I banned them as affiliates but not before I had payed out a bunch of commissions already. Then I began refunding the unsuspecting cardholders their money. Within the next month the chargebacks began coming in. And guess what.. PAYPAL would honor them EVEN THOUGH I ALREADY REFUNDED THE MONEY. So I took a double dip on many of these.

        Not to mention that paypal tacked on a sweet little charge back fee for everyone of these transactions. Calling PayPal support is like reasoning with a broken parking meter. They have absoulutely no clue of what internet marketing is. If it's not Ebay.. they just dont understand it.
        I got absolutely no where with them, I spoke to several reps and 2 different supervisors and the only thing they kept saying was "This would never have happened if you were using "our" payment buttons.

        Duhhh... you're payment buttons are static and don't let me track affiliate sales! The just have no clue over there. Unfortunately they are SO BIG now that they can get away with these ridiculous powermoves now. But fortunately for us there are well respected alternatives like Authorize.net and a few others.

        All I wanted paypal to do was get me back the affiliate money that I paid these clowns (through paypal) or at the very least cancel their accts... their response to me "Those users have not violated our policy by simply accepting a payment from you." WHAT ? ! ? OHH NO YOU DIDN'T
        So I'm the bad guy now?? wtf?

        I've dusted myself off after the $13,000 loss and moved on. They may think they hold all the cards but reality is that I carry my own deck. I'm in control of my business not paypal.

        Peace,
        O
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    Oh, I just wanted to add, in my case I was using Jon Ledgers $7 script, which according to Paypal is a Pyramid Scheme, this was their reasoning anyway. They didn't care to listen when I tried to explain to them that it wasn't a pyramid scheme in any way.

    So anyone using the $7 script may want to be careful too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Sheryl Polomka View Post

      Oh, I just wanted to add, in my case I was using Jon Ledgers $7 script, which according to Paypal is a Pyramid Scheme, this was their reasoning anyway. They didn't care to listen when I tried to explain to them that it wasn't a pyramid scheme in any way.

      So anyone using the $7 script may want to be careful too.
      It was the way the original sales page was worded that landed people in trouble with Paypal. Once you took off the earn 100% commissions on the sales page, Paypal didn't have a problem with it.

      This is well documented within this forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        It was the way the original sales page was worded that landed people in trouble with Paypal. Once you took off the earn 100% commissions on the sales page, Paypal didn't have a problem with it.

        This is well documented within this forum.

        Thanks Thomas, I know there is a lot about it on the forum, but Paypal don't care. I had actually taken the 100% commission off my site and had in fact taken the $7 script off and replaced it with a normal buy now Paypal button only a couple of weeks before they closed me down. They still didn't care, didn't want to listen to me, they had made up their mind and that was that.

        When they decide to close you down - they do not listen to any reasoning - they don't care. They are big, they have the monopoly on online payment processors and therefore they just do what they want.

        The fact that they keep your money for 6 months is just plain wrong - that should be illegal, it is not their money to keep.

        Their time will come, I have no doubt. The more people that have trouble with them will use other services and eventually another company will get big and really give them some competition - that is what they need.
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    • Profile picture of the author affilcrazy
      Hey...well what to say apart from i'm really sorry for your troubles. Worries me a bit now as i use Paypal a lot too.

      I see someone mentioned Alertpay above, i have been using it for a while and wrote a squidoo lens on it.

      I'm not using this a sales pitch by the way..there is no way i take pleasure from someone else's misfortune..just have a read of what i've written about Alertpay and decide for yourself!

      What Is Alertpay?

      And whatever action you take, i wish you luck and hope you can get some sort of semblence of sense out of Paypal!
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  • Profile picture of the author Irmscher
    Originally Posted by Razer Rage View Post

    Ejunkie would be one.
    I am with E Junkie but their services need money processing base like PayPal or Google checkout.

    I'd stick with PayPal anyway because most of customers using paypal and you can lose alot of sales if you ignore paypal.

    But anyway your story freaks me out abit. What I use to do is withdrawing money each and everytime it reaches $500-700 mark. This way I can fell alot more secure than leaving my PayPal accont with few grands on it

    Thanks for the story

    Andrew aka Irmscher
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    • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
      Originally Posted by Irmscher View Post

      But anyway your story freaks me out abit. What I use to do is withdrawing money each and everytime it reaches $500-700 mark. This way I can fell alot more secure than leaving my PayPal accont with few grands on it

      Thanks for the story

      Andrew aka Irmscher
      I wont even let them have that much, I withdraw money straight away almost as soon as it goes in there, I'm not letting them keep any of my money again.
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      • Profile picture of the author webguycanada
        Have any of you considered using ECsuite.com ?

        I'm considering using them myself.

        EC Suite can handle most any kind of online transaction processing,
        including digital downloads, monthly memberships, pay-per-views and recurring billing.

        EC Suite's Toolbox contains:

        > Simple, Flat Rate Pricing for Online Transaction Processing
        > Multiple Payment Options - VISA, MasterCard, AMEX, Discover, JCB
        > Weekly Payouts by check or bank transfer
        > Complete Subscription Management and Membership Optimization
        > Customization Tools, such as unique forms and e-mails
        > Recurring Billing and Retention Tools
        > Unique International Billing and Pricing Tools
        > Complete Downloadable Reporting and Tracking
        > External System Communications
        > Online Publishing Tools, Catalog Builder and Shopping Cart
        > World-Class Affiliate System

        EC Suite handles all your affiliate payouts, on any schedule your affiliates choose - weekly, or monthly, they choose their payout schedule. Your affiliates would have access to their own administrative area in the system to track their own sales and payouts, with the ability to adjust their payout thresholds on their own. And one related benefit to the EC Suite system is the ability to set who pays the processing fees, you or the affiliate or a split.

        EC's 'Pay Period' is between Sunday and Saturday weekly, with checks or bank transfers going out the following Monday - nine days later.

        Perhaps Mike Filsame and Sid (RAPIDACTION) Hale should consider using them as an alternative to PayPal.

        Just my 2 cents!

        Craig
        ..
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    • Profile picture of the author shakti2u
      I did an affiliate promotion for a company and Paypal froze the whole account for them for 180 days. They tried lawyers, etc. They verified that their customers were receiving their products, etc. But paypal still kept the money the whole time. Paypal finally released the money, but it took a long time.

      Thanks for all the alternatives all of you have given us so that we can protect our business.

      Shakti2u
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  • Profile picture of the author Emailrevealer
    Forget paypal.
    If you want to be a serious merchant and accept credit caards you need a real merchant payment account with a real company like autorize.net.
    You wo'nt have to deal with anymore rodiculous claims or chargebacks.
    Get a chargeback just fax over your terms and conditions and proof you supplied your product or service and the money is back in your bank 15 days later.
    No nonsense.
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  • Profile picture of the author drobnick
    These paypal stories are true. Don't doubt it, and be very careful. One close associate of mine, and you would know his name here in warriors, lost paypal because a company sent him a single payment. That company was deemed by paypal to be illegitimate, so they not only shut down the companies' account, but every paypal account that received money from them. Even if a one time payment.

    And that is not the most hair raising story.

    I highly recommend plimus.com to anyone need to take recrurring payments, or single payments, and are selling tangible or digital products, or even legitimate business opportunities.

    They acccept visa, mastercard, discover, AMex, paypal, electronic check, and others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    I'm wondering how big of a dog you have to be to get an Account Manager assigned to you by PayPal? Anybody know off the top of your head.

    I'm just a little bitty cog in that big old PayPal wheel.

    Ken
    The Old Geezer
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Sounds like to me they are creating a new niche for some enterprising banker types.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stacey Wockenfuss
      Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

      I'm wondering how big of a dog you have to be to get an Account Manager assigned to you by PayPal? Anybody know off the top of your head.

      I'm just a little bitty cog in that big old PayPal wheel.

      Ken
      The Old Geezer

      Pretty big. As in 100k to a million dollar launch for example. If you are there, then you probably have an acct manager already. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Paypal is part of FEE-bay and they are both mean FUBAR companies. I use them as little as possible. Let this be a lesson to others. I would investigate paypal. Too many cases of them doing max evil to their customers.

    Also, many thieves are using FEE-bay to sell stolen swag so be careful, as you can go to jail for possession of stolen property.
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  • Profile picture of the author anth.elias
    Ok..I was just a little scared at the beginning of this post...now I'm running scared. I use Amember along with PP for my membership site, so I now I'm going to be pounding my head against the wall trying to figure out how to switch all my current members to a authorize.net recurring membership payment, do they even do that?
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    i seriously couldn't live without paypal. I haven't run into any major issues with them, knock on wood.
    Yes, they take fee outs. Big deal. Who does NOT take fees..what on this planet is actually really "free"?
    Paypal speeds up purchases, it makes it easier to do business online.

    I "hate" every service/vendor who does NOT offer paypal...there are some european sites (hosting etc..) which STILL use old-fashioned bank-transfer..which means a transaction would take 5 days...with my ***** bank taking out the fees instead.

    Using paypal i can buy domains and have them running within minutes. Just one example. Or whatever other purchases/service. I actually <3 paypal, sorry for your bad experiences. I would call them and talk to a person.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    I used to have an ebay business, and was doing over $1000 a day into my pay pal account. I ordered private label product from china, and hence usually had a large inventory on hand (about 30 days worth, with the next 2 months already on order and being manfactured).

    Pay pal shut me down out of the blue, and it took months to get things straightened out. In the meantime, my entire ebay and importing business colapsed, my car was repo'd, my utilities cut off, and I was pushed right to the edge of bankruptcy (thank god I had some family help me out). it should have taken 48 hours max to sort out - not MONTHS.

    Everyone who has had this happen to them was once a pay-pal cheerleader, convinced everyone who says they got shut down "must have done something wrong". and then it happened to them.

    I hate having to deal with them.. I made a few grand promoting a paydotcom product this month, and I it makes me nervous having to rely on paypal to receive it
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    -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author Pat Blank
    I also had my Paypal account frozen last spring. I'm not a high-amount person and I don't leave much in the account. I tried and tried to contact them but nothing helped. Finally I was talking to "my" banker at Chase, I have a special account for Paypal, and he talked to a superior and so on, and they discovered why my account had been frozen: I had bought a $40 Lego Star Wars set on ebay and the seller had purchased something from someone else who turned out to have some questionable transactions. Note the chain!

    I did get my money back after exactly 180 days.

    I urge anyone who depends on Paypal to have a backup, just in case.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBooks
    you might want to use two different paypal accounts and have some clients pay here, some there... like changing the payment link every 1st of the month on your site (looks the exact same to the buyer...)

    helps a business not get totally crippled if they have a paypal issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBooks
    Plimus works too.

    Plimus
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  • Profile picture of the author new guy
    I use plimus too. I am from Canada and have very limited options. They process cards (and paypal) and handle delivery. Also, you can totally customize your order page, which I found very appealing. I was able to make it look like my site so it was integrated very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author new guy
    Oh ya, they also have an affiliate program so you can have affiliates sign up to promote your products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Here's what I did today...

    First, why wait until it happens to you! I went out today and secured several online merchant services and they all accept PayPal too.

    Now I am back in control of my own business. I have several backup plans in place and can stop holding my breath every time I go to login to PayPal...

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author Quentin
    I find it a bit strange Scott with that many transactions that you never had a dispute, refund etc.

    I have been in IM for over 10 years and with Paypal 9 of those years and had my account suspended a couple of times but using a calm business approach always been able to get it resolved and back up within an acceptable time.

    I have had many customers also using Paypal where they have had their account frozen for different reasons and also sorted it out. In every case it was the customers fault.

    I guess what I am saying is what your saying does not ring true with my experience and I don't think you are telling the whole story.

    Q
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    • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
      Originally Posted by Quentin View Post

      I find it a bit strange Scott with that many transactions that you never had a dispute, refund etc.

      I have been in IM for over 10 years and with Paypal 9 of those years and had my account suspended a couple of times but using a calm business approach always been able to get it resolved and back up within an acceptable time.

      I have had many customers also using Paypal where they have had their account frozen for different reasons and also sorted it out. In every case it was the customers fault.

      I guess what I am saying is what your saying does ring true with my experience and I don't think you are telling the whole story.

      Q
      Quentin I am happy for you that you have always managed to get things sorted out with Paypal, but as far as saying Scott musn't be telling the whole story I think is unfair.

      You are lucky you got it sorted. I don't know Scott at all but I know for a fact - 100% honest fact - that Paypal Screw innocent people and therefore I believe Scott. They do this to people, they do it ALL THE TIME! Scott isn't the first this has happened to and he certainly wont be the last.

      When it happened to me I tried phoning them and got the same response Scott got - to check my emails, I couldn't get anyone to put me through to anyone with more authority, I just got fobbed off.

      So count yourself lucky but don't assume others are lying because this stuff really happens!

      PAYPAL SUCK!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    If you're making even a few hundred $ a month, it's worth the fees for a real merch account.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick Judge
    Hi Scott I dont use them anymore, once you start having issues with them you will not use them anymore. I wont anyway.

    I hope you get a lawyer, in fact, I think all of us here, well me anyway would be glad to ring them and give them an earful and I am sure this would help, rip off merchants thats what they are,



    Patrick
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    Patrick

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    • Profile picture of the author ic7
      Hi Scott,

      I've had my account frozen three times in three years. Each time I got on the phone and was super diplomatic about the freeze. In each case they fixed the problem within ten minutes.

      Sometimes the PayPal security software locks things up when it shouldn't. I would get back on the phone and be calm and polite with them. You are basically reassuring them that all is well and nothing shady is going on. Explain your business, tell them what you do.

      Meanwhile, I recommend also having a 2CO account set up. 2CO now accepts PayPal payments.

      http://www.2checkout.com/community/

      All the best,

      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Tony Vercetti
    If you are accepting payments in the thousands of dollars every month, especially when delivering services or non-physical goods, I would look for other payment methods. They have a tendency to do this to anyone that starts receiving too much money in their PP accounts, at best they limit your account and ask for identification, at worst they make you wait 180 days to get your money.
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    • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
      As the biggest hater of Pay Pal on this forum.....here's what Vegas Vince knows for sure: True or False?

      1. Warriors who get screwed for a $1.00 by their FDIC Insured Bank....will raise holy hell over it......and yet these same Warriors will bend over and kiss Pay Pal's ass...even when they get screwed for NO REASON. Warriors fear Pay Pal. (True...see it every day on this board)

      2. Pay Pal can and will.....freeze your account and all the funds with in it.... for ANY reason they choose.....and the burden of guilt or innocence is ON YOU! (True...it happens EVERY DAY)

      3. Pay Pals corrupt and bogus FREEZE policy hurts honest marketers a hell of a lot more then the bad apples they claim they target. (True! Honest marketers get their accounts frozen every day.... and a long freeze can and will cripple cash flow...and destroy the reputation of an honest marketer whose payments received have been frozen.)

      4. Pay Pal knows they are crooked.........did you know that their TOS actually prohibits you from suing them in a court of law??? How many honest companies have that policy! LOL. TRUE...very true.

      5. Pay Pal earns MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in the interest they generate from FROZEN ACCOUNTS! Especially those they freeze for 6 months! (True...the dirty little secret no one but me seems to mention)

      WHEN PAY PAL FREEZES YOUR ACCOUNT THEY CAN AND WILL HOLD YOUR FUNDS FOR 180 DAYS.

      IF YOU ARE PROVEN INNOCENT ...THEY DO RETURN THE MONEY...6 months later!

      BUT......YOU DON'T GET A DIME OF INTEREST ON YOUR FROZEN FUNDS EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. But Pay Pal makes plenty off your legal earnings!

      PAY PAL EARNS INTEREST ON THE MONEY THEY STOLE FROM YOU....and decide to return at a later date...... TRUE TRUE TRUE.

      6. Pay Pal doesn't ever talk about what they do with the money they freeze...but eventually the United States Government is going to take them to task .....because PayPal makes a lot of money off these frozen accounts....they hold hostage...and they should be obligated to return the money with interest assuming the account holder did nothing wrong...to do otherwise is literally CRIMINAL. (True....)

      7. Pay Pal is not GOD, Warriors. Stop giving them so much power over your business and money....because good honest people have and will continue to be hurt by this monopoly of *******s. Willie Crawford had his Pay Pal account frozen in the past... and he's as honest as the day is long. True.

      8. If Pay Pal ends up dead and buried some day....I will walk through the grave yard and piss on their tomb stone...just for fun.

      And then.....I'll ask them what they did with the interest they earned on all that money they stole from me for 6 months....only to return it without so much an apology. And yeah...I considered it theft. When you screw with my money....for no reason...you're a theif. Even when you return it half a year later....a crook is a crook and to say Pay Pal wont screw you...is like saying The LAPD is comprised of all honest cops....not!

      I truly hope more good Warriors get screwed by Pay Pal. It's the only way....we'll ever see viable competition.


      xxx Vegas Vince
      Legend.
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  • Profile picture of the author Noel2010
    I agree with Vegas - "and yet these same Warriors will bend over and kiss Pay Pal's ass...even when they get screwed for NO REASON. Warriors fear Pay Pal."

    "I truly hope more good Warriors get screwed by Pay Pal. It's the only way....we'll ever see viable competition."


    I hate to say this but I warned warriors about this before. Since November 2007, I've been saying it when the same thing happened to me after years of selling on eBay and using paypal. In the busiest season, with thousands of dollars of sales, they shut me down. I have never recovered.

    A lawyer will not help so forget that. You will just have to start over with a real merchant account now.

    This is amazing that the media do not expose the ebay and paypal scam. We only have lazy journalists now who do not investigate the practices of these companies. Notice that not one journalist warned about the financial crises until after it happened?

    There has to be corruption at these 2 companies to operate like this.

    I am surprised at how many warriors who are making money do not use a merchant account. When I PM most and ask for alternate payments, every single one who reply say "only paypal"! Unbelievable!
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    I agree VV and I know you HATE paypal, the problem is Paypal is THE major to send and rec. money online. It's like a necessary evil. If they hold ur money for 180 days I think they should also give any interest accrued.

    I never keep much in my paypal. I like to keep around $50 in case I need to hire someone for a simple job or something. But if I get say $200 in my acct. I'll transfer $150 of that to my bank acct. So if paypal ever decides to shut down my acct. they will only be keeping around $50.

    I also have an alertpay acct. I used it once to buy something from a site that didn't accept paypal. So I have a backup just in case.

    I'd also recommend everyone getting a back whether it be alertpay or something else. I don't "think" it can happen to me but I know it might.

    By the way I had to call paypal yesterday-they won't let me update any of my info cause I moved and the stuff on record is old. And calling them is a real hassle. The first number was a nightmare I couldn't get out of that stupid automated system. They asked me to punch in the phone # assoc. w/my paypal acct. That number is like 3 yrs old and I can't remember it.

    I called another number and eventually after dealing with that annoying automated system forever was able to speak to a real live person who let me update my info. And he was really nice I was expecting a jerk, but he sounded very pleasant
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  • Profile picture of the author TheNightOwl
    Scott, I'm sorry to hear about your situation, too, man.

    Some very good advice in this thread, though, so I hope you're back on your feet or that it doesn't even rattle you.

    Re: some of that advice... I took another look at Plimus... boy have they changed! I remember buying some software through them just a couple of years ago and they seemed a bit hokey at the time to me. And as I seem to recall, they ONLY did software. Or am I mistaken?

    At any rate, leaps and bounds, I say!

    I'll definitely be looking into them a bit more over the coming weeks when I get a bit more time up my sleeve. Thanks for the recommendation (I can't recall who posted the original link to them in this thread, but thank you!).

    QUESTION: Is anyone currently using Plimus to sell their services (a la copywriting, for example) and/or digital products other than software? I'd be very keen to hear your experiences--and I'm sure others would, too.

    And re: Your own merchant account... any pitfalls there, folks?

    TheNightOwl
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  • Profile picture of the author TheNightOwl
    Update:

    I went and had a tool around the Plimus site and found this in their FAQs:

    Can Plimus sell Adult material or Gambling products?
    No, we do not accept any form or Adult material, subscriptions to a website, magazines, books or others. We also do not accept Gambling products except for Books regarding the subject.
    Now, I'm not in the gambling or adult markets, but what I find interesting is this bit:

    we do not accept any form or... subscriptions to a website
    (I assume where it says "or" it means "of")

    They accept subscription payments for services and software, but not to websites. So no processing your membership site's payment's through Plimus. Hmmm...

    Also, it seems that their legal status with vendor's is as a reseller and not simply a payment processor... so that needs further investigation.

    And finally, their payout methods are reasonably limited for non-Nth-American folks, with the only viable option being ** drumroll ** yep, good ol' PayPal!

    Very keen to hear more about merchant accounts and will do a search here on the WF later in the week. Gotta get back to the work I was doing before dropping in!

    Be good!

    TheNightOwl
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  • Profile picture of the author stefanjames
    Yes same exact thing happened to me. I had a few grand in my account and my account goes limited. When you try to contact and ask them they don't give you a real answer. 2CO Checkout works well as well as Alertpay are the ones I use.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheNightOwl
    And again...

    interesting thread here. Scroll down to where Josh starts pumping out the good stuff (as usual).

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ease-help.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Ted Kopelli
    I would highly recommend 2Checkout. They accept PayPal payments so you get the best of both worlds.

    After My account freeze with PayPal, 2Checkout has always been there for me. Customer service is excellent. Only drawback is they require a separate account for each domain that sales come from. That is easily offset by using JVManager or another centralized system.

    Funny thing, my account has been dead for nearly a year and yesterday PayPasl sent me their PayPal Mastercard Debit card. Just for giggles I tried to activate it. No good LOL

    Ted
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  • Profile picture of the author new guy
    I deliver an ebook through plimus. Just zip it up and they take care of the distribution as well. Actually a pretty good system. They also accept paypal from buyers. They have a good system for tracking everything, you can even find out how far people are getting in the order process and so on. They still have limitations but have found them to be pretty good. I am in Canada and I have them send me check every month so that works well for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Owen Mailer
    dont know if this will be of help to you but you could look at mals ecommerce it is free
    hope it all works out for you
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  • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
    I'm sorry to hear this.

    I think it's a good lesson for all of us: don't leave a whole bunch of cash in Paypal.

    Fabian
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  • Profile picture of the author billbarrett
    A temporary solution to prevent such PayPal slap: do not leave a lot of money in your PayPal account. Withdraw regularly and do not leave anything to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    This is awful i had a few problems with them a couple of years ago, had my account hacked into and was using it as a business at the time it took them months to deal with it and whenever i spoke to them by phone it just made me more angry.

    There just complete idiots i do know quite a few that have successfully sued them. Yes you'll get the money back but they wont do business with you again stating your relationship is broken. There was a site that people used to go to called paypalsucks.com but i dont whether its still up because paypal kept threatening court action against them!
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  • Profile picture of the author Powertreb
    Sorry to hear about your troubles, Scott.

    I hate ******* companies like this. They get too arrogant for their own good.

    You definitely need to at least try and go up the chain. The reps you speak to when you first dial in are like tricycles in a lot full of Acuras. They won't get you far, and they are trained to be the first line of defense and stall or push you back.

    PayPal's HQ is here:
    PayPal, Inc.
    2211 N. First St.
    San Jose, CA 95131
    Phone: 402-935-2050
    Fax: 650-864-8001

    Here is a list of their top brass:

    (I would start here with this group, Merchant Services and Consumer)
    Dana Stalder
    SVP and General Manager, Merchant Services and Consumer
    (at PayPal)

    Now this is an SVP/GM. She is probably too high up to spend time with you at first. You may want to reach a Senior Manager or Director level person under Stadler.

    There's a chance that they will screen your call. And you may get a bitch or asshole who will act high and mighty and won't put your call through.

    But don't forget that PayPal is an eBay subsidiary. Here is eBay's HQ info...

    eBay Inc.
    2145 Hamilton Ave.
    San Jose, CA 95125
    Phone: 408-376-7400
    Fax: 408-376-7401

    You can call eBay customer service or their sales department. Try to get a really low level name, an authentic employee name. Call into ebay like a real client or potential customer and be really nice and friendly, this will help you get the person's name.

    Then you can use that name to call PayPal and get through to Stadler's group and speak with someone. But don't be nasty at first. Control your temper and speak professionally.

    I hope this can help you at least figure out WHY they closed your account. Good luck!

    If all else fails, send a Tweet to Obama.

    PS...Don't reach out to the Legal department. That's the last place you should turn to on your own. I believe most "Lawyer Jokes" actually originated from true stories.

    __________________________________________________ __________

    Other PayPal senior staff:

    Rene Aeberhard
    Director, Architecture

    Michael Barrett
    Chief Information Security Officer

    Ryan D. Downs
    SVP, Operations

    Ed Fong
    President

    Salvatore J. Giambanco
    VP, Human Resources and Administration

    Mary Anne Gillespie
    VP Sales

    Scott Guilfoyle
    SVP Platform Services

    Mary M. Hentges
    CFO

    Barry Herstein
    Chief Marketing Officer

    Katherine Hutchison
    Senior Director, Risk

    Phillipp Justus
    SVP and General Manager, eBay Marketplaces and International Business

    Robert Mansell
    VP Product Development

    John D. Muller
    VP, Legal and General Counsel

    Jack Stephenson
    SVP Strategy and New Ventures
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  • Profile picture of the author mkarthik07
    dude the same thing happened to me. I got my money after 6 months though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Anderson
    The REAL solution is simply to get a merchant account. The most popular in internet marketing is Authorize.net...

    If your credit is an issue you may not get approved.

    There are many merchant accounts out there so don't get discouraged if you get turned down. Just to a search for internet merchant accounts and you'll have enough listings to keep you busy for a while.

    I'd look for the companies that have phone numbers listed on their websites. Pick up the phone and call them. See if they answer their phone. Do your due diligence. Find out if they are a reputable company...do their customers love them??? How do they work.

    Since a payment processor is one of the most important parts of your business, take the time to really figure out with merchant account is best for your needs. Do they have good customer service? Do they have a dedicated account rep? Do you care? It's really up to what YOU want.

    Do this research and your business will thank you for it....

    However, I have a feeling that only 5% of anybody reading this will actually do the work it takes to find the right merchant account. It is a bit of work.

    Hmm....

    Here's an idea. Do the research, find out what merchant companies are good in different situations. Do the report for yourself...then package it up and SELL that report to other internet marketers. Sounds like the makings of an excellent WSO if you want to take the time to do it right.
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    • Profile picture of the author JaceBarnett
      Originally Posted by Jason Anderson View Post

      The REAL solution is simply to get a merchant account. The most popular in internet marketing is Authorize.net...
      I agree. Authorize.net also has a payment gateway which can be used with other merchant accounts, which brings me to...

      Originally Posted by Jason Anderson View Post

      If your credit is an issue you may not get approved.
      There are companies that offer "free" merchant accounts that don't have large application fees, or large one-time purchased accounts. They rely strictly on a percentage of your revenue (like you know who) -- so you might want to Google "free merchant account."
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  • Profile picture of the author mogema
    Hey Scott

    Sorry to hear about the problems,

    I can understand your frustration because as a South African citizen im not allowed to receive money through paypal but they have no problem taking it from me!

    Anyway i use 2checkout and they have been great.

    Hope you come right
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  • Profile picture of the author pj413
    Sorry to hear that Scott. My sister went through the same thing last year. She was a power seller on eBay, and her PayPal account got closed after 4 years. All she sold was items that she picked up from yard sales and thrift marts. She made a nice income from eBay, in her last two years; she made an average of $6500 a month. Then one morning she checked her PayPal account, and she was limited, followed by the awful parting ways letter. Not only that, PayPal held the $15,000 she had in her account for 90 days.
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  • Profile picture of the author Powertreb
    If a collective effort by a substantial group of marketers and online businesses were somehow organized to leave PayPal and specifically state these occurrences as the reason for leaving, would it make a dent or make anyone there notice?

    I wouldn't expect eBay sellers to do this, for obvious reasons. But as for a good chunk of non-eBay businesses to do this...does anyone think it might push them towards relaxing the "We do what we want without needing to give you a specific reason" policy?

    Any opinions?
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    • Profile picture of the author tnleverett
      Hey guys,

      My Paypal account was closed as well this week. No warning and no good reason. Talked to them on the phone and I was told that it was an Ebay decision and there was nothing they could do about it. Seems like Ebay and Paypal are really screwing people!

      Good thing is I didnt have any cash in the account.

      T
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    • Profile picture of the author Hackbridge
      What would it take for internet marketers to set up a payment system like Pay Pal and compete against it? Would they need the backing of a bank or just a wealthy person?

      What if?

      Brian
      Originally Posted by Powertreb View Post

      If a collective effort by a substantial group of marketers and online businesses were somehow organized to leave PayPal and specifically state these occurrences as the reason for leaving, would it make a dent or make anyone there notice?

      I wouldn't expect eBay sellers to do this, for obvious reasons. But as for a good chunk of non-eBay businesses to do this...does anyone think it might push them towards relaxing the "We do what we want without needing to give you a specific reason" policy?

      Any opinions?
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by Hackbridge View Post

        What would it take for internet marketers to set up a payment system like Pay Pal and compete against it? Would they need the backing of a bank or just a wealthy person?

        What if?

        Brian
        You would be tied to the same rules as paypal, the payment processor is taking all the risk and must defend their business even if sometimes they are over zealous.

        The credit card companies would hold you responsible for the funds if you get it wrong And you dont want the risk financially trust me far to many people out there that would be a real threat, which is why it makes it more dangerous for the rest of us
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  • Profile picture of the author nmh
    I would post a complaint w/ the Better Business Bureau for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This cost you a lot of money. That is CRAZY!!!! Others should know but if no one ever files anything, it will keep happening.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    I find it a bit strange Scott with that many transactions that you never had a dispute, refund etc.

    I have been in IM for over 10 years and with Paypal 9 of those years and had my account suspended a couple of times but using a calm business approach always been able to get it resolved and back up within an acceptable time.

    I have had many customers also using Paypal where they have had their account frozen for different reasons and also sorted it out. In every case it was the customers fault.

    I guess what I am saying is what your saying does ring true with my experience and I don't think you are telling the whole story.

    Q
    I don't really care if you believe me or not.

    I didn't say I've never had a dispute or given a refund, I said I haven't in a few months.

    I haven't sold physical products in years. When I sell digital products, I always have a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

    So anytime a buyer complained for any reason or disputed, I would refund. My refund %'s are always low.

    At the end of last year I sold off a lot of my websites to shift my focus to copywriting and a few bigger products that I plan to release soon.

    I haven't sold anything besides writing services through Paypal in a couple of months.

    And to clarify a few other comments I've seen...

    My account isn't limited, it's done. Paypal doesn't want to work with me anymore, I worked my way up the customer service chain yesterday and was very diplomatic. No possibility to be reinstated, no second review of my account, it's just done.

    My guess is that they didn't like the fact that I was selling a large volume of expensive items that aren't physical and that they can't see. That's the only thing I can think of.

    Anyway, it's just a payment processor. I'll live without the money for awhile. I have friends and family with Paypal accounts I can use, I have backup plans in place, and life will go on.

    Thanks everyone for the suggestions, it's been a huge help!

    -Scott
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  • Profile picture of the author fadi
    Sorry to hear about this scott. I wonder if there is anything we can really do about this..The only reason I ever really use paypal for is ebay. If I can get around that problem then MOST people would not need paypal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Okay, here's my question, and I think it's a damn good one.

      We are all so quick to accept so much in this world as the "gospel", part of
      that being that you must have PayPal to take payments because so many
      people will only pay through PayPal.

      But is that really true?

      I mean do we know this for a fact that if we didn't take PayPal we'd be
      screwing ourselves?

      Where are the stats?

      Where can this be verified?

      Or is this just more hearsay that we take as gospel because some big
      named guru said it?

      Can't we do just as well by going to our bank or wherever and getting our
      own merchant account?

      I mean for crying out loud, not every site on the Internet takes PayPal and
      some of them are darn successful.

      If I'm not mistaken, I don't think Aweber takes PayPal.

      Doesn't seem to be hurting them much.

      Point is, so what if PayPal tells us goodbye?

      Are they really the only game in town?
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      • Profile picture of the author Debbie Songster
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, here's my question, and I think it's a damn good one.

        We are all so quick to accept so much in this world as the "gospel", part of
        that being that you must have PayPal to take payments because so many
        people will only pay through PayPal.

        But is that really true?

        I mean do we know this for a fact that if we didn't take PayPal we'd be
        screwing ourselves?

        Where are the stats?

        Where can this be verified?

        Or is this just more hearsay that we take as gospel because some big
        named guru said it?

        Can't we do just as well by going to our bank or wherever and getting our
        own merchant account?

        I mean for crying out loud, not every site on the Internet takes PayPal and
        some of them are darn successful.

        If I'm not mistaken, I don't think Aweber takes PayPal.

        Doesn't seem to be hurting them much.

        Point is, so what if PayPal tells us goodbye?

        Are they really the only game in town?
        I can tell you from the experience with my stores that you won't lose business if you don't take paypal.
        I offer both - paypal and direct credit cards and over 90% of my sales come through on credit cards.
        Infact, I converted one of my stores to paypal only and the sales dropped. I recently moved it back to paypal and credit card and my sales went up.
        Whats that tell you?
        People want to pay with their credit cards.

        There are so many cards out there that offer rebates and points people like to use those.
        As for security. My stores are secure but I still have people who call to place an order or they will place an order and select payment by check/mo and then leave me a message they want to pay with a CC over the phone or they will call me directly.

        Due to the headaches paypal can deliver, I don't recommend them to my clients. Jay, who has a heating and AC store only takes CC's and it works great.

        Anyone who truly has an online business should have a merchant account. I have 3 of them.
        They will ask you what you are selling and tag your account accordingly. They will also ask you what your average order size (amount) will be and how much volume you expect to put through in a month.
        Anytime you get a higher order amount or you think you are going to do a large volume you need to call them and let them know so it isn't flagged in their system. They will hold funds as well if a purchase seems excessive or suspect. They certainly don't hold it for 180 days - I don't even think thats legal is it?

        If you do big ticket items they may ask you to get a signature from the card holder.
        You have to remember that there is a big difference between processing CC online and in a regular brick and mortar store.
        We don't have the privilege of seeing the card and swiping it through a system. Therefore the risk is a lot higher. Thats why the rates you pay for a merchant account with online sales will be 1% - 2% higher than your regular stores.

        Scott, for your service you would do well to set up Quickbooks and get their merchant account. Process your customer through your bookkeeping system (one entry) and at the same time if its a large sale amount you can add a signature line to the invoice, email it to them and get them to fax it back to you signed. That way you are covered with the CC company.

        You keep their CC on file in your bookkeeping system so its there when you do more work for them. Just get them to fax you an authorization to complete the transaction.
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      • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, here's my question, and I think it's a damn good one.

        We are all so quick to accept so much in this world as the "gospel", part of
        that being that you must have PayPal to take payments because so many
        people will only pay through PayPal.

        But is that really true?

        I mean do we know this for a fact that if we didn't take PayPal we'd be
        screwing ourselves?

        Where are the stats?

        Where can this be verified?

        Or is this just more hearsay that we take as gospel because some big
        named guru said it?

        Can't we do just as well by going to our bank or wherever and getting our
        own merchant account?

        I mean for crying out loud, not every site on the Internet takes PayPal and
        some of them are darn successful.

        If I'm not mistaken, I don't think Aweber takes PayPal.

        Doesn't seem to be hurting them much.

        Point is, so what if PayPal tells us goodbye?

        Are they really the only game in town?
        Steve:

        If you have a bankruptcy that cleared the courts in Nov of 2002 like I do, then I'd have to give that the old Steve Austin 'hell yeah'. No merchant in their right mind would ever give me a merchant account for any amount, especially in this current credit crunch. Heck, I can't even get a retail store card like Sears, how many laughs do you think a decent merchant provider would have with my application?
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

          Steve:

          If you have a bankruptcy that cleared the courts in Nov of 2002 like I do, then I'd have to give that the old Steve Austin 'hell yeah'. No merchant in their right mind would ever give me a merchant account for any amount, especially in this current credit crunch. Heck, I can't even get a retail store card like Sears, how many laughs do you think a decent merchant provider would have with my application?
          Try Credit Card Processing, Merchant Accounts, Accept Credit Cards

          Seriously. They do merch accounts with hard credit and/or tough business models.
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          • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            Try Credit Card Processing, Merchant Accounts, Accept Credit Cards

            Seriously. They do merch accounts with hard credit and/or tough business models.

            Michael:

            Do you use them?

            Some questions:

            1. What is the monthly fees?

            2. Can I offer a 1 year guarantee on my products (I hate the 60 day limitations I have right now) with no problems?
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

          Steve:

          If you have a bankruptcy that cleared the courts in Nov of 2002 like I do, then I'd have to give that the old Steve Austin 'hell yeah'. No merchant in their right mind would ever give me a merchant account for any amount, especially in this current credit crunch. Heck, I can't even get a retail store card like Sears, how many laughs do you think a decent merchant provider would have with my application?
          Floyd, I get where you're coming from and I'm sorry to hear about the
          problems you've had. Yes, in cases like this, having PayPal is a godsend.

          I guess I was referring more to the "average" person or even people with
          good credit. I'd have no problem getting a merchant account and yet, out
          of pure laziness, have never applied for one. PayPal is just so convenient
          and easy.

          But if the day comes, I won't shed a tear over them. I'll just go dig up
          another one to take payments.

          Nobody should be able to hold a gun to your head the way some companies
          do.

          It just ain't right.
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          • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Floyd, I get where you're coming from and I'm sorry to hear about the
            problems you've had. Yes, in cases like this, having PayPal is a godsend.

            I guess I was referring more to the "average" person or even people with
            good credit. I'd have no problem getting a merchant account and yet, out
            of pure laziness, have never applied for one. PayPal is just so convenient
            and easy.

            But if the day comes, I won't shed a tear over them. I'll just go dig up
            another one to take payments.

            Nobody should be able to hold a gun to your head the way some companies
            do.

            It just ain't right.
            Steve:

            Just remember there is always 3 sides to every story: My side, your side, and the truth.

            Right now, all we have to go on is the OP's side of the story here. We really haven't heard paypal's side of this equation, so we don't know what they are thinking, or why they think that way.

            It could be something totally fraudulent, or it could be a legitimate concern they have. Without any input from paypal, we don't know all the whats and whys behing the freezing of the account, and how to avoid getting yours shut down.

            Why is that? It could be fear that if real fraudsters found this out, they could structure their transactions to avoid detection. Or it could be they have something to hide, and random account freezes are part of their business model.

            Paypal, if you're reading this, we need you to become tons more transparent about this stuff. Stop making decisions in smoke filled back rooms, and step out into the light and tell us what is going on.

            The alternative is six million people mail-bombing congress, and you getting perp walked in front of them and raked over the coals for public pleasure.

            Your move paypal. You can either work with us, or we will work you over in the end.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    Steve,

    I have thought A LOT about what you just said over the last couple of days...

    Basically trying to answer the question "Will I be alright without Paypal?"

    In short, yeah, I'll be fine personally.

    The main problem I see is that a lot of the things I buy require Paypal... WSO's, services on this forum, things like that.

    But I know enough people with a Paypal account that I can just have them pay for me and pay them back with cash or whatever.

    As for accepting payments, if people want what you're selling and know who you are, I don't think it's an issue.

    The only downside I'm seeing is I'll lose the instant cash in hand that my Paypal account/card gave me, but that's not a big deal.

    And in my opinion, if your business relies on one company... Paypal, Google, whoever to survive, you need to restructure your business, or at least have a backup plan in place that you can implement immediately.

    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Paypal allows payments without an account - so you might still have the ability to use it for purchases. Worth checking.


      What are they up to?
      They are owned by ebay which is based on "pay this, receive your product". I think what they are doing is avoiding any "risk" of charges of money laundering. Even an investigation could ruin their business and they are putting caution above everything.

      I may be wrong but this seems the most likely explanation as they are labeling "high risk" accounts that are mostly service based where money is paid but no product is attached to the payment (that paypal can point to, at least).

      I wonder if marketers might try to avoid the problem by providing a download even for payments for "service" - such as a pdf that outlines the agreement or whatever. Don't know - but it's a thought.

      kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      I mean do we know this for a fact that if we didn't take PayPal we'd be
      screwing ourselves?

      Where are the stats?

      Where can this be verified?
      I can only provide anecdotal evidence on my own purchasing habits. I can tell you that there have been many times that I haven't purchased a product or service because the seller didn't accept PayPal.

      Originally Posted by scottspfd82 View Post

      The main problem I see is that a lot of the things I buy require Paypal... WSO's, services on this forum, things like that.

      But I know enough people with a Paypal account that I can just have them pay for me and pay them back with cash or whatever.

      As for accepting payments, if people want what you're selling and know who you are, I don't think it's an issue.
      Could this have been an issue? I'm assuming the account you received payments on was a business or premiere account? Could a problem have been buying and selling with the same account?

      I don't see why it would be an issue, but maybe something about making purchases through a business or premiere account raises some red flags or something?
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      • Profile picture of the author AliciaSpringer
        This is not uncommon with Paypal, in fact I've heard plenty of horror stories. The usual reason they give is "high risk" but never really provide valid proof of how "Risky" of a merchant you are. It is at their sole discretion for terminating merchants.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    Could this have been an issue? I'm assuming the account you received payments on was a business or premiere account? Could a problem have been buying and selling with the same account?
    It was a business account.

    I really doubt that me buying stuff was the issue... That would be ridiculous... Then again giving me no reason at all is pretty ridiculous too, so I dunno.
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  • Profile picture of the author hotlinkz
    With thousands of dollars each month, you should look into getting your own merchant account setup.

    Best alternative I know of other than that is AlertPay.

    This is definitely not the first or last PayPal horror story. I leave about $10 in my PP account and transfer everything else out.

    You may want to try filing complaints with some consumer watchdog agencies.

    It's almost like politicians own and run PayPal
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  • Profile picture of the author fadi
    As for personal experiance.. I have 1 paypal account that is in the negative because someone broke into it. My bank cleared my of the fraude but paypal didnt, So I open a new one to clear my first one and they lock up the new paypal account with over $1,500 in it. And they still have the balls to send me to collections. I refuse to pay my negative balance until they release my funds after 180 days. This should be coming up in may. If I could SUE paypal I would. I think this should be a group effort in the sueing process. Otherwise their lawyers will eat any single entity alive. There are not enough negative words in the dictionary to describe the hate I have for paypal..
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanvhamer
    I remember sometime ago someone had posted a site I think it was something like paypalsucks dot come or something like that for people to contact paypal for issues like this. Paypal makes it very hard to get satisfaction when there are problems like this but are quick to shut you down when they think there is some hanky panky going on. Really not fair at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanvhamer
    I will try and find that link for you. It lists supervisors and their direct lines and stuff. I am not sure if its still accurate but it couldn't hurt.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBooks
    With US Paypal users able to generate VCC numbers, there is much LESS incentive to take paypal in such a case, where you are selling mainly to the US market... because paypal customers can buy from you even if you dont accept paypal.

    I have had this with clients outside the USA that I have paid their aweber bills for via a VCC when they sent me a paypal to cover it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    This can happen with any payment processor, even a real merchant account. In fact its much more likely to happen with your own merchant account.

    And paypal are essentially putting there merchant account on the line verytime they process payents for anyone. there fraud department runs on the rules set by the credit card companies.

    either they kill all risk no matter how smaall or they risk losing their own merchant account effectively putting them out of business.

    With one company I use to be associated with the merchant account froze the account because we were doing monthly subscriptions, they deemed it high risk and froze the account for 180 days (180 days is the norm)

    If they choose to to stop dealing with your business from a risk assessment thier only option is to hold onto the funds for that period in which perspective chargebacks are eligible.

    And I would say the risk is as pointed out here, no discernable product digital or physical.

    I have had this conversation with my paypal rep, and we now log all customer activity on the sites we run, we record the IP address of every log in and can recall the records of all accounts. Essentially we can give them a complete record of number of times they logged in the IP adresses used and the last login date.

    The risk on doing business is all on paypal, they risk far more than you if they get it wrong, so their fraud department is rightfully cautious

    Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author Debbie Songster
    To add to what Robert has talked about...

    Given the present state of the economy, credit card companies are tightening up their belts.
    This maybe why you are seeing more account closures with places like Paypal.

    I'm seeing this with my husbands boat dealership.
    There are bad apples in all levels - from the consumer to the business owner.
    In a knee jerk reaction, financial institutions (cc companies) are going through their accounts with a fine tooth comb to minimize their risks.

    For example at the dealership they are seeing an increase in the interest rate from the flooring companies (companies that carry the purchase of the products in your showroom) as well as a decreased "free flooring" time.

    There are companies as well as individuals going bankrupt and the financial houses are panicking. They need to cover their losses as well as minimize any future loss.

    In a time when these institutions need to help small business and be more flexible - they aren't. Its a knee jerk reaction and it affects business as well as consumers

    Is it the right way to do things? - not necessarily but its our present reality.
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  • Profile picture of the author new guy
    You could still do more with customer service and co-operation. I don't think the issue here is so much in that they held the account.

    It it in that they have no desire to try and rectify the problem. Just ignore us until we go away. That it no way to run a business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by new guy View Post

      You could still do more with customer service and co-operation. I don't think the issue here is so much in that they held the account.

      It it in that they have no desire to try and rectify the problem. Just ignore us until we go away. That it no way to run a business.
      Your not reading the posts above...

      They employ people especially to assess risk according to thier own merchant account rules. they are being squeezed themselves by the credit card companies to reduce risk. they have no real choice but comply or they loose their own business

      No amount of customer service and cooperation can cure that.

      The fraud department is the last word, there job is to stop paypals merchant account from being frozen for 180 days. You would be as zealous as they are if your whole business was dependant on you getting the risks right.

      Losing your payment processor/ merchant account is the risk of doing business online. Because your customer is not present at the point of sale the risks are huge

      Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    As a side note here, if you have customers who lodge an unauthorised activity dispute with paypal because they just want a refund, be careful to fight the dispute...

    I used to take the view that it wasnt worth the time to argue and it was better customer relations to just process the refund. But everytime a customer lodges an unathorised activity complaint they are accusing you of fraudulent activyt, and everytime you capitulate to keep the peace you are essentially admitting the fraud.

    If customers come to us via the support desk and ask for a refund, even if its because they just changed their minds we are 90% liable to give them one.

    If they lodge a paypal complaint with asking us first there is no chance in hell they will get a refund, we use all the stats mentioned above in my previous post to prove they have logged into get thier product or service

    Even if we sell a single product we make them log into get it so we can prove they received it.

    (very usefull owning your own membership script so you can achive that)

    If you continously admit to fraud by agreeing to a resolution by refund for any such paypal dispute eventually paypal will see you as a risk

    Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Quite frankly, not having PayPal as a payment processor can affect your business, especially if it is webmaster related. Since many prefer to use PayPal over credit cards directly.

    If yours was a business account, I would open a personal account or vice-versa. You will need to use a different address and also credit card. Also it may be advisable to use a different ISP when you do it.

    But it is important to find out what the reason is why PayPal close your account in the first place. My suspicion is that they did not like the product/services that you were providing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    Hate to point out the obvious but WE ARE WARRIORS

    Why not organize as a group and start showing PayPal some of our muscle?

    We are capable of generating so much influence that even PayPal could shudder...
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post

      Hate to point out the obvious but WE ARE WARRIORS

      Why not organize as a group and start showing PayPal some of our muscle?

      We are capable of generating so much influence that even PayPal could shudder...
      The problem with organizing as a group is that some Warriors peddle stuff that other Warriors wouldn't want to be associated with.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post

      Hate to point out the obvious but WE ARE WARRIORS

      Why not organize as a group and start showing PayPal some of our muscle?

      We are capable of generating so much influence that even PayPal could shudder...
      Not really. They could care less. The WF is big but not big enough to influence Paypal
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Well this is ironic, just today I had my paypal account limited. I can't recieve or send money or do anything except add money to the account. (yeah, right) :rolleyes:

    This better be resolved in a few days.

    I had paypal buttons on a site which I didn't know violated their TOS. I was made aware of this and removed all paypal buttons immediately. And I emailed them and told them so.

    Then today they send an email saying it still wasn't resolved?! :confused: And they limited my acct. and it's under review. So I'm screwed until this gets resolved.

    So I took down the site completely. There is no site there at all. I emailed them and told them the site was taken down so hopefully they will restore my acct. asap.

    There are other ppl with similar sites to mine that use paypal and haven't been "caught". So I don't know what's up with that.

    Now that the site is down, they have nothing to complain about. They had nothing to complain about after I removed all paypal buttons but they still limited my acct. after this for some strange reason I don't understand.

    I made a blog for someone recently and they can't pay me until this is resolved. (unless they wanna send a check :rolleyes: )

    At least they haven't "parted ways" with me yet, but they threatened that if this wasn't resolved they would terminate my acct. So I immediately took down the site.

    I hate paypal, but I need paypal
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    • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Well this is ironic, just today I had my paypal account limited. I can't recieve or send money or do anything except add money to the account. (yeah, right) :rolleyes:

      This better be resolved in a few days.

      I had paypal buttons on a site which I didn't know violated their TOS. I was made aware of this and removed all paypal buttons immediately. And I emailed them and told them so.

      Then today they send an email saying it still wasn't resolved?! :confused: And they limited my acct. and it's under review. So I'm screwed until this gets resolved.

      So I took down the site completely. There is no site there at all. I emailed them and told them the site was taken down so hopefully they will restore my acct. asap.

      There are other ppl with similar sites to mine that use paypal and haven't been "caught". So I don't know what's up with that.

      Now that the site is down, they have nothing to complain about. They had nothing to complain about after I removed all paypal buttons but they still limited my acct. after this for some strange reason I don't understand.

      I made a blog for someone recently and they can't pay me until this is resolved. (unless they wanna send a check :rolleyes: )

      At least they haven't "parted ways" with me yet, but they threatened that if this wasn't resolved they would terminate my acct. So I immediately took down the site.

      I hate paypal, but I need paypal


      No you don't....Valerie. You don't need Pay Pal.

      That mindset is exactly why PayPal continues to screw far more honest marketers then dishonest ones.

      They do it because THEY CAN. They do it because you people let them do it. They do it because they earn MILLLION OF DOLLARS IN INTEREST ON FROZEN ACCOUNTS!

      Again....it's the dirty little secret PayPal doesn't discuss and no one here seems to ever question.

      FROZEN ACCOUNTS ARE BIG BUSINESS FOR PAY PAL...THEY MAKE LOTS OF BLING BLING FREEZING FUNDS!

      I mentioned back on page 2 of this thread that "...Pay Pal can and will freeze your account for any reason they choose...."

      Valerie....you are one of many good Warriors who probably didn't think it could happen to YOU, capiche.

      Welcome to reality. Oh yeah...Pay Pal aint exactly FDIC insured either....which basically means they can do what ever they want with your money....when ever they want. That's the price you pay for dealing with the devil.

      As I said...PAY PAL freezes the account of honest marketers every single day.

      THE POLICY AT PAY PAL IS TO FREEZE X AMOUNT OF ACCOUNTS IN ORDER TO EARN MONEY OFF THOSE FUNDS....KNOWING FULL WELL THEY HOLD ALL THE CARDS. IF THE MARKETER BITCHES....THEY HOLD ALL THE MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNT FOR 6 MONTHS....AND THEY EARN MONEY FROM THAT. You never see a dime of it, however! That's the fraud...ON THE STREET WE CALL IT "SKIMMING".

      You people give this monopoly called Pay Pal way too much credit...and way too much power over your business.

      Rather then getting pissed off and finding alternatives...most of you would rather walk back into the hen house so the Fox can eat you for dinner a second time.

      I only give someone one chance to screw with my money. Because after that....I'm a dumb ass if I give them a chance to get me again. Most of you....give PayPal way too many chances.

      First time...shame on PayPal. Second time...shame on Vegas Vince.

      That's why I never used them again....after they stole/froze my account...only to return my money they froze (stole) from me---- after 6 long months. Shame on them! To me...what they did was literally criminal.

      If I did it....I'd be in prison.

      They earned interest on my money....and I wonder if they reported it on their tax returns....cuz I sure as hell didn't see any interest for their theft.

      I didn't even get an apology...after they returned my frozen funds IN FULL.

      What a corrupt evil bunch of crooked *******s! Freeze funds...earn interest for 6 months....then return the frozen funds....MINUS the interest. How is that moral or legal?

      That's the legal crime pay pal engages in...the one thing the government will probably take them down for eventually....because freezing money for the purpose of earning profits from it....is a crime...even if you return it 6 months later. True.

      If I was half the man I use to be...I'd take a flame thrower to the entire company.


      xxx Vegas Vince

      p.s. Billions and Billions of Dollars Were Made By Marketers Long Before This Pay Pal Posse Rode In To Town.....Remember that before you sell your ass or your soul to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Globalflow
    Oh the painful memories...

    They did that to me with many thousands on frozen hold for a WHOLE 180 days.

    OMG - what business speed bump. I use linkpoint now for some stuff. 2CO for others.
    AlertPay is up and down, they stopped taking visa and mastercard the other day out of the blue... Merchant accounts and payment processors... oh man...

    Franco
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  • Profile picture of the author NicheExposed
    dam this sucks. another economic downfall. guess they needed your money more than you do. The great Paypal Buyout! Lol
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Just got an email from paypal saying my acct was restored. After I completely took down my website. I didn't know anyone there even worked at this hour.

    Vince, what do you use to send or receive money online?

    You should've called them up and demanded all interest they accrued on your account. I don't see how it's legal for them to take interest on YOUR money. It's not theirs, it's yours so how can they keep it and stay out of legal trouble?
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    • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Just got an email from paypal saying my acct was restored. After I completely took down my website. I didn't know anyone there even worked at this hour.

      Vince, what do you use to send or receive money online?

      You should've called them up and demanded all interest they accrued on your account. I don't see how it's legal for them to take interest on YOUR money. It's not theirs, it's yours so how can they keep it and stay out of legal trouble?


      LOL.

      Valerie....don't you get it yet?

      Pay Pal is NOT FDIC insured...they can and will do what ever they want with YOUR money.

      WHEN PAY PAL FREEZES AN ACCOUNT.....THEY CAN AND WILL HOLD THE MONEY FOR 180 DAYS.....AND THEY DO SO BECAUSE THEY EARN INTEREST ON THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN FROZEN ACCOUNTS.

      Even when they are forced to refund the original funds in full 6 months later......they have already made their "score." That's the crime. That's the fraud.

      That's the dirty little secret no one in Pay Pal ever wants you to know! And not one Warrior has ever mentioned this but Vinnie here.

      No one here is naive enough to think Pay Pal is stuffing frozen accounts under some mattress, right?

      Pay Pal froze my account THE SAME DAY EBAY GAVE ME A POWER SELLER CERTIFICATE!

      The nearly $7000 they "held" STOLE from me....was returned in full exactly 6 months later...but only after I had to force them to do so...cuz they wont refund even after 6 months unless YOU REQUEST IT!

      NOT one dime of interest was paid to me. Not one. They locked my money up for six months and gave me nothing for my troubles except the money they originally stole. Ya think they might have made a buck or two off my 7K? LOL. Of course they did.

      PAY PAL EARNS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN INTEREST FROM FROZEN ACCOUNTS....BECAUSE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN FROZEN FUNDS OVER 6 MONTHS ADDS UP FAST...CAPICHE!

      That's the dirty little secret....and no...it's not legal. And yes...most likely the anti-trust lawsuit that is coming will take them to task for that.

      I will be doing my next BTR Radio show on Pay Pal.....and I suspect they will try and stop it...but I aint for sale. And the *******s at Pay Pal are eventually going to have to fess up about what they do with interest earned from accounts they return......without even an apology. I told their lawyers to kiss my ass too...the show goes on. Someone needs to have the balls to step up and expose this shit.

      And after two years on this forum...not one Warrior has ever had an explanation for the money PayPal makes off honest Warriors whose funds are frozen and returned. Sad.

      xxx Vegas Vince
      Legend
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrick Judge
        I do believe paypal makes millions from frozen accounts, they have just invested 50 million euro in a plant here in Dublin Ireland, so there you go !
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  • Profile picture of the author Burt Carpenter
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
      Originally Posted by Burt Carpenter View Post

      Internet Marketers have embraced PayPal because they were fast and easy to set up the accounts. Outside of E-Bay Paypal is NOT the preferred way to pay by most consumers.
      Where did you get this info? It's not consistent with my own testing and general knowledge that many consumers LOVE buying with Paypal:

      1. They don't have to give their CC info to the seller. This seems safer and is much faster than typing all that info every time.
      2. They can buy with funds in their account rather than just a CC, such as a bank account transfer.

      If what you say is true, why are more and more major companies (who already have their own merchant accounts) accepting PayPal? Why did Clickbank start accepting PayPal after many years? It must be because they thought it would increase sales- certainly the fees are higher than they pay for their regular merchant account.

      For anyone having trouble, have you verified everything with PayPal (your street address, phone number, CC info, bank info)? That helps a lot in keeping your account un-frozen, because it reassures them who are.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anomaly1974
    I do not know this Burt Carpenter character and have not had time to search anything yet. However, having lived without paypal for a long time and having been shut down by them in the past for no reason other than they considered a fifty dollar christmas gift from my Mom to be a suspicious transaction (and since I no longer had the same credit card, decided it was in my best interest for them to keep the 350 bucks I had in my account at the time) I know how fragile relationships with them can be. I am using paypal at the moment to rebuild and reestablish myself but I am not making it a career choice and not limiting them as my only option. Once I do get established, I will definitely be looking at the merchant accounts as they are much more user-friendly and able to take a much wider variety of payments than paypal all while offering a certain amount of protection to the buyer and the seller.

    I am only in phase two and the second week of building back up from nothing though so it may be a while before I can afford a merchant account, much less justify the expenditures.

    Just my two cents.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      OK - I should probably keep my mouth shut but...

      I choke almost every time I read a post spouting off about illegalities - and the more vehement the poster, the more convinced I am that they don't really know what they're talking about. I'm sure they think they do - but, unfortunately, they are usually only repeating what they've heard somewhere else, or (even more often) expressing their own interpretation of what they've heard.

      There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about Paypal, or even an FDIC insured bank, earning interest on monies in your account. Both Paypal AND your own local bank do it every day.

      Think about it. Paypal can't earn interest on your account just by freezing it! How does freezing an account automatically generate interest? Who's paying the interest?

      Well, it's a long food chain, but eventually... borrowers.

      There are laws about the minimum percentage of funds on deposit that must be available in cash (i.e. not invested in money markets, domestic or foreign), but the rest is invested in various financial markets, and earning interest.

      Oh - and it doesn't matter whether your account is frozen, or if it's with Paypal or some other financial institution. That's the way they all make money.

      Surely you don't think that your local bank offers free checking, free lollipops for your kids at the drive-thru (and maybe even free doggie treats) just so they can HOLD your money. Not hardly. They don't HOLD it. They invest a large percentage of average daily deposits in consumer loans, mortgages, money markets, and foreign exchange markets. Those investments are their primary source of income.

      They have to, because you - as a customer - are actually an expense. Handling your funds cost more than they charge you in fees.

      Your average daily balance is their source of investment funds. Your funds are the raw material in their factory. A factory that invests your "raw material" to create more cash.

      Sorry. I went off topic a little.

      The primary point is that all financial institutions create earnings on all monies deposited with them.

      Not only is it legal. It's their reason for existence.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


        There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about Paypal, or even an FDIC insured bank, earning interest on monies in your account. Both Paypal AND your own local bank do it every day.
        Sid, while I loved your post (gave you a big "thank you") there is one big
        difference between your bank and PayPal.

        Your bank isn't going to tell you that they don't want your money anymore.

        At least I've yet to find a bank that has.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Sid, while I loved your post (gave you a big "thank you") there is one big
          difference between your bank and PayPal.

          Your bank isn't going to tell you that they don't want your money anymore.

          At least I've yet to find a bank that has.


          Well hold on a second Steve... I know for a fact that Banks can terminate their relationship with a customer if they are deemed "High Risk" and have done some stupid things like "kiting" (but then again that's not the issue in this case... never mind )

          I know this to be true because my wife works at a bank.

          When I told her about PayPal she said 9 times out of 10 the person is not telling the whole story. She see's it everyday... but who am I to judge?

          Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author kiwichamp
    I certainly appreciate the comments on this thread. For me it is a wake up call too. I think that it is best to diversify a little, especially these days.

    Use paypal perhaps only for those who would like to send funds that way, and another option for credit cards.

    Has anyone had any experiences with Alertpay or iKobo? Possible alternatives to Paypal?
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

    Michael:

    Do you use them?

    Some questions:

    1. What is the monthly fees?

    2. Can I offer a 1 year guarantee on my products (I hate the 60 day limitations I have right now) with no problems?

    I do not currently use them. I use merch services through my bank. However, I have used them in the past for an offline business that I sort of "inherited" (bought the note, borrower defaulted on loan, repo'd the assets). My PB didn't like the fact that I intended to simply open the business with the assets and hire someone to operate it because the perceived risk was high. This was a couple of years before the economy started to slide, and this business is one of the first "luxuries" to get axed out of a budget So, not only did I not get any LOC to support the operation (I never sign personally for any business deal with a corp or LLC in place), they wouldn't even underwrite the merch services on the deal.

    So, I funded the whole thing out of pocket. A couple years after having sold the operating business to another investor, and replacing banking relationships with one a little more in tune with my own entrepreneurial attitude (and not on the federal bailout nipple I might add), I am more than thankful that this company was around to fund a startup with no business credit.

    IIRC, it was about $50 a month for admin fees. The cost per transaction was pretty reasonable, but high comapred to other merch accounts. Not even close to PayPal's hijack.

    Good company, no issues. But then again, you don't get many chargebacks against $4 lattes and baklava slices.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    And real banks give u suckers or tootsie rolls when u go there. Paypal doesn't do that
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      And real banks give u suckers or tootsie rolls when u go there. Paypal doesn't do that
      I'm still waiting for my free toaster.......
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    Personally I detest Paypal, their so called payment protection does nothing but favour conmen, their support is awful, their charges a mickey take.

    The problem is I will continue to give them thousands of dollars a year in revenue because my customers demand that Paypal is available as a payment mechanism.

    I would LOVE to turn off Paypal tommorow.

    Awful company in every respect IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author IMDimWit
    This definitely sucks and is very frustrating. But, it begs for everyone to have a backup plan and maybe two.
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  • Profile picture of the author D.lee
    Hey Scott thats sucks with the paypal nightmare Im just starting some ecom sites thanks for the heads up on paypal I have sign up for a free merchant its good so far and its free rockettheprofit.com/instantmerchantaccount Free Merchant Account Sign-Up Video[/url]

    check it out let me know if it worked for you
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  • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
    This the perfect example of why you NEED to be in contact with your Paypal rep.

    Don't have a rep?

    Contact them and get one!

    For example I have a launch coming up and Paypal should see a flood of money coming into my account all of a sudden which might raise some eyebrows.

    So what will I do between now and then?

    You guessed it, contact Joe my Paypal rep. So they know what's about to happen and I prevent any obvious misfortunes.

    Lessons to be learned:
    1) Get your own Paypal rep.!
    2) Have a back-up plan!
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  • Profile picture of the author multimastery
    Sorry to hear the news about PayPal! I will most definitely take heed to your warning. If you can round up about a dozen other folks that this has unfairly happened to, it sounds like this would make for a good Class Action Lawsuit. You should really think about it because you could very well get far more money than their holding from you!
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      I have known other people who have had their accounts frozen and locked just like Scott's and those people who have posted. I think what some people have said here is wise: when it comes to your money don't put all your eggs in one basket. Along with having multiple streams of income, have multiple ways of receiving money in place. Use AlertPay or other payment processors, or get a merchant account if you can.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    When I told her about PayPal she said 9 times out of 10 the person is not telling the whole story. She see's it everyday... but who am I to judge?
    Here's a thought. I earn a living by helping people in this forum. Do you think I'd start a thread admitting I had my Paypal account canned if I wasn't telling the whole truth?

    How does starting this thread make ANY sense at all if I'm hiding anything? I rely on people to trust that I'm a good person, that I'll do a good job, that I always work with their best interest in mind...

    Anyone who I've ever wronged, through Paypal or otherwise, is free to comment here. I don't see any, do you?

    I would be an idiot to post here if I had something to hide, over 2,000 people, 2,000 potential clients, have seen this... And I'm not an idiot.

    I'll be transparent...

    I had thousands of dollars coming into the account and I routinely withdrew the money... So at the end of the month I may have $2k-$3k instead of the original $6k or whatever...

    Maybe I am at fault, I dunno. I'd LOVE for a Paypal rep to come in here and give me a specific reason. I've emailed them and showed them the thread.

    But you don't know me, you and everyone else who have said "you're hiding something" are wrong...

    If I was "hiding something" then posting this in a public forum for thousands of people to see would be stupid...

    And I'm not stupid.

    Peace,

    -Scott
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  • Profile picture of the author bellis160
    Scott, so sorry to hear about your Paypal problem. I am completely convinced you are telling the truth. And at the same time I think Paypal is justified in taking the action they did.

    Paypal deals with billions of transaction by millions of customers. They do their best to set up systems and procedures to deal with fraud. But there is no way any large company can sort the fraudulent accounts from the legal accounts with 100% accuracy.

    Every company this large has do to the same thing in order to stay in business. They set up rules to determine when account activity is suspicious. Then flag the account and sent it to the fraud department. Where someone will quickly determine the risk to the company and then make a decision.

    Once a final decision is made there is nothing the company is willing to do to change it. Not because they don't believe you. But because it is not cost effictive to investigate it any further.

    Nearly every customer who's account gets flagged as "high risk" will want to contest it. But the company cannot commit the resources to listen to every case. The cost would be unacceptably high.

    Instead they flag the "high risk" accounts knowing full well a percentage of them are perfectly legit. They accept this "breakage" as a cost of doing business.

    This is the only way a large business can deal with millions of customers. I worked in management for a Fortune 50 company, most of those years in customer service.

    This is something we saw often. And I have been on the other end of the conversation you had with Paypal too many times.

    It doesn't make any sense to the customer when they hear nothing can be done once the decision has been made. But in truth it is a business reality.

    The only options left for you Scott are to file a complaint with any overseeing government regulatory agency and/or sue them.
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Can you get another bank acct. and use another email and open a new PP acct. if you need to?
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    • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Can you get another bank acct. and use another email and open a new PP acct. if you need to?
      That doesn't really work anymore, since they now require a credit check for all new premier or business accounts, which means they need your SSN.
      If they didn't have your SSN on your old account, you could do this once, but thats it.

      And on a side note, to all those who say "just don't keep any funds in your PP account...make sure you xfer them immediately", that doesn't work either. When you sign up w/ them and add your bank account, you are giving them permission to withdraw any 'chargeback' funds directly from your attached bank account.
      This is the 'rule' that the Stormpay crooks used (more like abused) to drain people's attached bank accounts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Spiritjoy
    Hi Paypal did something like this to me. I had a sale for $1,500 dollars not really IM just on a sale of a physical product on ebay, After 3 weeks the person decided they wanted their money back.

    There was a clear no refund policy. Paypal said my money was safe and that I was in the right, just fax the no refund post that was on ebay, which I did. Her credit card said they will take her side and will ask paypal for the money back.. After paypal said I was covered by paypals insurance i did not feel good about paypal even though they said I was in the right .They said the $1,500 was mine I would not have to give the money back. I took out $500 out of my paypal account leaving $1000
    10 days later paypal seized the remaining $1000 that was left in my account and told me I had to pay them the $500 dollars that i withdrew!

    I said you said I was protected and was in the right...no answer from them ..just a closing of my account after 4 years and they took the 1,000 dollars from my sale that was left in my account
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  • Profile picture of the author kdsm100
    I'm a "newbie" and haven't been on the Warrior Forum in a while due to travel and time constraints, but I read every word of this thread because it's a "hot button" topic for me. I've never accepted payments through PayPal but have heard all of these stories in other places as well. My experience is with Merchant Service Providers, but it is similar and for those who want to abandon PayPal and get your own Merchant Account this is particularly important information.

    My main business has been accepting credit cards for payment for over 18 years and although most of you are in an online environment my business is what used to be called "mail order" or now "direct mail" which has the same challenges and constraints as online businesses because we never have the credit card in-hand.

    I've always watched our rates closely as our business operates on a very low profit margin and giving away any of it is difficult to accept, especially just to get our payment. And as our business grew I found out more and more about how to get better rates and how the whole thing worked.

    Then last year someone whose Forum I follow and participate in posted a rant about exactly what happened to Scott, but it happened to her merchant account, not PayPal. So I obviously was concerned. We process over $1.5 million a year in credit card transactions and I couldn't believe they could take her money and then tell her it could take up to 180 days for them to resolve the situation. That would be catastrophic for our business.

    And then in talking to a friend with a retail, brick and mortar business I heard another horror story. For them, not only did they get talked into changing their merchant provider which actually cost them twice as much in fees as their previous one, but the sales rep also convinced them to lease a new terminal in order to get "better rates." A $3,000 lease for a terminal that could easily be bought for under $200.

    I'm an self-admitted "information-aholic" and I set out to find out what had happened in both cases, if it could happen to our company, and more about the industry itself.

    It's not a pretty story...a lot of horror stories, rip-offs, frozen accounts and on an on. Now I dig deep and follow links and leads and this took me several weeks. But this is a very unregulated industry and there are a lot of unethical people and companies out there.

    I finally found four merchant service providers that I "thought" were potential winners. But that's when I got serious about my due diligence.

    So I looked into applying to become an independent agent with them...best way I could think of to find out the "real deal." Two had them made it relatively easy to get this information and I got the paperwork, etc., just to see what kind of compensation they offered their independent sales people. It was an eye-opener! One company quoted their rates and they actually said "you can mark it up whatever you can get and keep the difference." And the leasing of terminals? Yup, they gave bonuses for selling those outrageous leases. Crossed them off the list.

    I paid for Dunn & Bradstreet reports on them - one of the ones I had really been considering had a history of not paying their employment taxes to the IRS and there were liens against them. Crossed them off the list.

    That left two companies. I couldn't find anything negative about them and so I contacted both and submitted my company's information to get quotes for switching our business to them.

    They were both very good to deal with. Their quotes were similar. I got to talk with real people, the same ones every time. I quizzed them both about the situations that had started me on this journey and they both explained why that could happen and why it wouldn't happen in dealing with them.

    Bottom line there was a big deciding factor for me in choosing to move my business to one of them over the other. Their rates had been similar, but one of the guys told me "I don't understand something about your current statements. All of your transactions are going through as "unqualified" which means you're getting penalized and it looks like it's costing you about $900 a month." I immediately spoke to my employees and it turns out that there was an "upgrade" made to our terminal and the trainer told them to "just hit the return key" when any information such as zip code, etc. was asked for. That put every single transaction into a non-qualified situation and cost us plenty!

    So the decision came down to going with the company whose rep was not only concerned with my rate, but was truly concerned about my company even though at that point he didn't know if I would select them. Good old-fashioned customer service even before you've gotten the customer. It's the way I do business.

    I called and spoke to the head of the company to tell him how impressed I was; we still correspond and talk occasionally. And I e-mail and talk with my rep regularly.

    Not to step on any toes, but I noticed that the Merchant Account Provider (as someone in the thread pointed out) that some big names in the internet world recommend have an "affiliate program" associated with it. This isn't necessarily bad in any way, but it shouldn't keep you from doing your due diligence on your own. Referrals are a great starting point, but look into the company just as thoroughly as you would had they come knocking on your door.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Sullivan
    Google checkout is a good option, i would never leave that amount of money in paypal anyway...transfer everything to your bank...that way they can't get their grubby little hands on it....

    But, best of luck to you in finding another alternative, paypal is needed sometimes, especially for places like the warrior forum, what happens when you want to run a wso...you need paypal!

    I wonder if Allen would accept other means of paying for WSO's?
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  • Profile picture of the author FriendlyRob
    Who hasn't been screwed by paypal at one point or another.

    To me it just means that I'm doing enough business to get screwed once in a while.
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  • Profile picture of the author DAS_Matt
    Ouch. Sorry to hear.. hopefully you can get it settled. I personally would make it a point to call incessantly until you got a straight answer.
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