Do You Hammer Your List? Why or Why Not?

45 replies
So I have seen people do great things with their lists using varying methods. There is the people that really provide quality content and give give give to their list and sell them something only when it is of real benefit and make a living off their list that way. Sort of a la Frank Kern, who's methods I do love to study by the way. These types love doing huge launches and stuff like that.

On the other hand I have seen those that are HAMMERING their list with offers and doing ad swaps everyday. These types are running off pure volume. Their list is huge and so even though they are hammering it and getting 200 unsubs in a day they are getting 500 new ones the same day via swapping. These types are either hammering it everyday with solo offers or selling solos and making a killing off selling clicks.

Im my opinion both are pretty savvy business models. I have always loved the thought of having a list that loves you and building trust and making sales that way. But I also think its kinda cool how these list volume types grow their list so fast and are kind of doing the churn and burn method to generate massive volume so that even a low response rate of 1-2% will still bring a full time income. Even though this may be frowned upon by many, I still respect that it is a business model. The people on these list have every right to unsubscribe so nobody is making them stay on the list if they don't like it. Branding yourself is not the focus there. John Cornetta is the man with this method.

Your thoughts?
#adswap #building a list #solo #solo ad
  • Profile picture of the author rmolina88
    I only contact my list every 2-3 days with a mix of tips, freebies, and offers which has been working wonders for me.

    I would say run a list like if you were part of the list. Do you like getting hammered with offers every day? If you don't, then don't email your list every day.

    I'm on several lists of the marketers I respect and they only send offers every 2-3 days too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Martin Lee Jr
    Well if you hit me with a hammer, I am going to run - Hammers hurt.

    Nah all kidding aside, I see what you mean.

    I like and practice the business model of building a relationship with my list, giving quality free offers and then promoting and selling them only something of true value.

    I do it under the belief that I will be building a long term business with my clients.

    The other way I guess is ok - but here is the problem I see.
    If you have 200 people unsubscribing everyday than eventually your autoresponder company will terminate your account as their reputation may be affected.

    This has happened to many marketers in the past because of too many subscribers hitting that spam button. I wouldn't want this to happen to me, so I take list relationships very seriously.
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    • I think you need to have a clear picture what to do with your list from the first day (i`m in the process of building squeeze page and autoresponder).
      I personally wouldn`t do any solo ads on my list it burns the list , rather use it like a proper sales funnel

      1.Create free course in autoresponder (1 episode per week)
      2.Send offer not more often than every 3-4 emails
      3.Occasionally blend some link to products(no more than 2) in emails
      4.Think about your list as the asset building your pension
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  • Profile picture of the author WillMitchell
    I think any marketer who is using the "burn and churn" method of building a relationship with their list is making a horrific mistake...

    That type of marketing is archaic, and the people who still follow it are (I would guess) finding it harder and harder to scale that method. You have a pretty limited upside on how much you can churn and burn, much less of an upside than I do by building a relationship with my list and constantly building my revenue per list member.

    It is all turning to quality over quantity as the Internet becomes more personalized and our social circles become more exclusive. We increasingly want to vote and influence with our money, and we want to vote for people we like, not brands that slam us with random crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Kyle
    Interestingly, startup hero Appsumo.com (their list is 600k+) have recently toned down their SELL-SELL-SELL barrage of daily emails (yes they do have a Deal Of The Day angle too) to more value orientation.

    Guess that list was rapidly becoming unresponsive/unsubscribing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Spencer
    Originally Posted by Eniggma

    Even though this may be frowned upon by many, I still respect that it is a business model.
    Hello Eniggma,

    I like your logic when measuring the different models.

    I personally feel that building a long term asset is the best model
    and here's why.

    The true asset in any business is the relationship you have with your
    clients.

    When you are "turning and burning" you are eventually going to run of
    people to spam.

    Having people that want to hear, buy and invest in you is the best medicine.

    Everything is about balance. It's not 'how many times' you send an offer.

    Your framework for sending offers should be measured by the amount of benefit
    your market could get if you choose to reveal it to them.

    More specifically - the result, result(s), or performance 'out of' the product.

    For info products - we already know the drill. You get out of it precisely what you
    invest back into it.

    Relationships take the cake, always.

    Justin
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    When it comes to list building and email marketing i have a long term strategy

    I am not interested in churn and burn, it may work for some people

    Some people may be earning well out of the "churn and burn" method but the money is not everything, you still have to be able to sleep at night and can you honestly say that every product that you promote if you promote something every day, you really think it is worth promoting?

    I guess it comes down to what you are comfortable with

    Personally i like to treat my list as i like to be treated, plenty of good info and education with the odd product recommendation if i find something which is top draw and i think my list would benefit from it

    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author eniggma
      Originally Posted by paul nicholls View Post

      When it comes to list building and email marketing i have a long term strategy

      I am not interested in churn and burn, it may work for some people

      Some people may be earning well out of the "churn and burn" method but the money is not everything, you still have to be able to sleep at night and can you honestly say that every product that you promote if you promote something every day, you really think it is worth promoting?

      I guess it comes down to what you are comfortable with

      Personally i like to treat my list as i like to be treated, plenty of good info and education with the odd product recommendation if i find something which is top draw and i think my list would benefit from it

      Paul
      Thanks for you input man, what have you found to be the fastest way to grow your list?
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  • Profile picture of the author gabysanchez225
    You just have to ask yourself how many emails do YOU want to receive? When you open an email what do YOU want in it/what would you like to read? This is a great starting point and prevents that hammering approach which imo, is deceptive because you can't try out the ridiculous number of offers your sending out so you aren't providing a genuine service.
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  • Profile picture of the author canada94
    Since I started using Frank Kern's advice, things have really hotted up.C.C.P.C.
    Content,Content,Pitch,Content...Foolproof.

    Hope this helps

    Kevin
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    • Profile picture of the author eniggma
      Originally Posted by canada94 View Post

      Since I started using Frank Kern's advice, things have really hotted up.C.C.P.C.
      Content,Content,Pitch,Content...Foolproof.

      Hope this helps

      Kevin
      I love Frank Kern too man. I am always lining up my follow up emails and meticulously making sure I am offering value then putting in that pitch email as well at the right time.

      Ultimately I like Kerns method better but with an adswap no more than twice a week. But even that may change.:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author ebusinesstutor
    I also feel this method is archaic. I leave lists that continually swamp me with offers and no real substance.

    They are all using pro forma sales letters and most of them haven't even looked at the product they agreed to promote - just greedy for money, not thinking of their subscribers.

    I ONLY send out useful articles to my list and reviews of products I actually use and have personally reviewed. And the sales suggestions to article ratio is very low.
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    • Profile picture of the author Walter Parrish
      The real Guru's don't churn n burn they build relationships.
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      • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
        I don't hammer any of my lists.

        Why?

        I believe in treating subscribers how I like to be treated.

        I think that list owners who just hammer their lists with
        any old offer are complete wankers.

        Although hammering your lists is a potential list building
        model, it's one I hate and would never use, especially
        as there are better ways to make money via list building.

        Dedicated to mutual success,

        Shaun
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        .

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        • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
          Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post


          I think that list owners who just hammer their lists with
          any old offer are complete wankers.

          Shaun
          Ha, this really cracked me up shaun

          I often hold my breath with my opinions on this subject lol but what you say is often what i think too :-)

          I just say it in a more delicate way ha :-)

          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author joefizz
        Originally Posted by Walter Parrish View Post

        The real Guru's don't churn n burn they build relationships.
        Having been through the recent round of Mike Koenigs and Dan Kennedy (just the last 2) launches, I am not sure I agree with your point. The Guru's JV up (understandably) and promote each other to their list. The problem comes when you are on all the Guru's lists...

        ...for the avoidance of doubt... it is hell!

        I follow the Guru's because of the nuggets they give away... however, the tipping point is coming!

        BTW, I really value my lists and do not bombard them at all...

        Llwyddiant!

        Joe
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    No i dont hammer my subscribers with sales pitches. I mail to them about 7 times a month, and this is especially true for backend customers. They seem to like my backend product promotional content.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Wightley
    I have a large list of over 10,000 and I will only send out around 3-4 emails per week with helpful tips and free downloads. I also use videos to inform my list of new stuff I have discovered.
    I send them a link to a product only 2-3 times per month and only when I have tried and tested what I am promoting.

    This seems to work for me and the sales I get from my list's are great.
    Give it a try..
    Don't just send crap or your future broadcasts won't get opened
    Cheers Mark Wightley
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  • Profile picture of the author andybeveridge
    This how I see it. All the above methods work if you educate your subscribers on what to expect from the start. Continuity is the key. I mail out every day except weekends. Only two of the emails are of the promotion kind.
    Previous buyers are moved to another list and mailed to in a slightly different way. To me it all works if they know what to expect.
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  • Profile picture of the author Glen Barnhardt
    I agree there needs to be a balance. Good content and some offers. We are all in the business to make money with our lists. We need to protect them but we have to make offers to make money.

    I move buying customers to a buyers list. I remove them from the other list. The buyers list gets better content and only the best offers.

    The regular list gets good content and occasional offers.

    This method keeps your best customers safe and protects both lists from being bombarded with offers.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomtommarketing
    I've always treated my list with respect and never "over hammered" them. If I would be annoyed with the volume of ads they are receiving then its probably a sign they will to. I find that my list is far more responsive if I only blast it when I have something of value to share with them. This way requires much more patience but is much more profitable in the long run.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Desi
    I currently don't have a list (gasp!)...don't worry...I'm in the process of getting things setup..anyway.

    I've purchased a few WSOs, requested a few free downloads, etc, so I'm on about 10 different lists as a potential customer. I'll say this...The ones that email me every other day or every two days (very frequent), I tune them out. In fact, I unsubscribed to one today. It was just annoying.

    However, there is one list I'm on and they only send an email, on average, once a week. Guess what? I OPEN that email every time.

    As a case study of one, I get annoyed by too many emails from a list owner. If spaced appropriately and the emails add value, I'll open and read every time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I don't because I look to build a relationship and trust with them.

      I'm not saying churn and burn can't work, because it does for a lot of people
      who can drive massive amounts of traffic and build a huge list.

      It's just not my cup of tea.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Realize that churn and burn means different things to EVERYONE.

    -To some people (like me), 2-3 times a day is too much
    -To others, 1-2 times a week is too much

    I think it all depends on what you're used to, how much you email people on a daily basis yourself, etc.

    At my day job, I go through 50+ emails a day, so I'm used to hearing from people over and over again.

    My grandma on the other hand, checks her email like once a week. So she gets more frustrated over multiple emails from the same person.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      My marketing method has always been about establishing more than just a "relationship" with subscribers. It's about truly engaging them and winning their business by giving value.

      This process actually begins long before they even become subscribers; through articles syndicated widely in strategically targeted publicatons. Once subscribed, they continue to receive valuable tips, resources, freebies, and progressive product promotions on a daily basis.

      As long as you consistently offer value, fulfill expectations, and provide quality products, the frequency of sending emails is essentially a non-issue. It may seem counter-intuitive but in some competitive markets, sending emails on less than a daily basis could be a profit-cutting disadvantage.

      An excellent book that explains this very powerful marketing model is "Brand Against the Machine" by John Morgan. This book provides a contrasted insight between the timid email marketer who seems afraid to offend and lose subscribers with those who blast away with frequent hard hitting promotions.

      When used effectively as a branding tool, email marketing can create a reputation as a leading authority in even the most competitive arenas; one who provides value to people rather than being another "me too" business that blasts marketing messages at those who do not want them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrick Batty
    I know some marketers who go with 2 messages a day.

    That has never worked for me.

    Pretty much any time I've done more that 1 in a day it has hurt more than helped.

    So once a day is my absolute limit

    I vary my messages.. text based tips, helpful tip oriented videos, video product reviews and the occasional product or wso recommendation
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  • Profile picture of the author champion510
    Email Marketing hasn't showed me much conversion and response level.
    Maybe I'm doing it all wrong.. but I guess there is plenty to learn from top marketers here.
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    • Profile picture of the author eniggma
      Originally Posted by champion510 View Post

      Email Marketing hasn't showed me much conversion and response level.
      Maybe I'm doing it all wrong.. but I guess there is plenty to learn from top marketers here.
      If I may ask how big is your list? Do you have a funnel in place to try to make something on the front end? Are your follow up emails getting opened?

      I am not a guru by any means but I know quite a bit about list building I just am now more focused on putting into action. I'm sure there are plenty making a full time from their list
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  • Profile picture of the author IMSince2003
    I've just subscribed to a list from a well known marketer. He sometimes sends 3 emails in one day. I find it interesting because the posts are all relevant. Other people might find it annoying. To each his own.
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  • Profile picture of the author betterwtveter
    I first send them an email once a day for 7-10 days, then I trickle them away to once every other day, once a week, and then just once a month.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lokahi
      Originally Posted by betterwtveter View Post

      I first send them an email once a day for 7-10 days, then I trickle them away to once every other day, once a week, and then just once a month.
      Starting out your list with a seven day email course is a good way to introduce your niche and then occasionally (once a week or several times a month), sending out a newsletter about product/site updates, keeps them informed as to what you are doing. At least, without being burdensome.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
        I don't like being "hammered" so I don't hammer anyone else.

        My list gets valuable free goodness and offers for my paid products.

        At the moment I rarely promote affiliate products unless something has really proved to be wholesomely valuable.

        Daniel
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        • Profile picture of the author TerranceCharles
          It's not how many emails you send, it's what you send. If you're sending a lot of value, subscribers won't mind. The more emails you send, the more you stick out from your competition who is also filling their inbox with emails, you'll get noticed more.

          "Churn and burn" do work well for some marketers, but that's because they've conditioned their list from the jump, that this is the method that they use, and their subscribers don't mind because they're used to it.

          I've always found that the more emails I send, the more opens and response I get as long as it's a fit for my subscribers. The 3 main reasons people unsubscribe is because they get too much email, the content doesn't relate to what they're interested in, or the emails are not consistent.

          However, no matter how much value you create, no matter how much of a relationship you build, there will always be people unsubscribing, it's just all about numbers. The key is consistently build your list so that you replace those subscribers that unsubscribe.

          But, you don't want to send all value and then start selling, you want to do both at the same time using a soft-sell approach, such as telling a story or giving some sort of educational type of email with a recommendation at the end that relates to what you're teaching.

          But all in all, it also depends on the list, if you have a freebie list - the point is to get them to become loyal readers, and buyers. So you do have to email enough times to get your message in-front of them to move them over to your buyers cycle. If you have a list of buyers, THIS is the list where you treat with caution, these people have already bought from you so they know, like and trust you
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    I jackhammer those b**stards until they say 'NO MAS' and pay up!

    Always Be Closing they say. Oh wait, this is 2012. I just had a bad flashback, sorry Now I just 'add value' and provide 'great content'
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  • Profile picture of the author John Cornetta
    [QUOTE=eniggma;7166802. Branding yourself is not the focus there. John Cornetta is the man with this method.

    Your thoughts?[/QUOTE]

    Who me ? Thank You
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    I prefer a good chainsaw myself... bloody, messy but gets the job done.

    Extreme list segregation.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Never understood the churn and burn. Why get people on a list only to repulse them? Why not sell long-term? Money? Again, why not sell long-term?

    To each his own.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Never understood the churn and burn. Why get people on a list only to repulse them? Why not sell long-term? Money? Again, why not sell long-term?

      To each his own.
      Ummm... G-R-E-E-D?
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  • Profile picture of the author eniggma
    Again I feel like its to each his own. I mean there are so many online and offline lead gen businesses that make millions doing the same churn and burn stuff. Plus lets be real here most of the people that subscribe are not helpless sheep begging for a master. Most are on multiple lists cuz they want to be and like to dabble in multiple things. They are "promiscuous by nature" as WF member "X" put it once. Some choose to profit for the lead. Who are paid by those who choose to profit from the sale.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    I've split tested the very heavy, daily promo model before on a list that had new subs daily.. and it definitely generated a larger income.

    but here's the downside:
    a) it's hard to constantly come up with something to send. it's time consuming and boring.
    b) before long, it get's easier and easier to just promote whatever you come across regardless of quality
    c) at some point, if you have a heart, you just can't blindly promote stuff w/o feeling bad.
    d) it's not fun or enjoyable

    I suppose I could have just re-promoted a handful of stuff I knew was decent. but I became so turned off because of (c), I turned my back on it.

    But don't assume it doesn't work. It does, if you can live with yourself..
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    -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    We try to keep it in between. Not too hard and not too little.
    However if you are in the business of selling "Traffic" then that's
    A whole different ball game on its own.
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  • I could name someone highly regarded now or a few I see 2-3 WSO suggestions daily lol. If it weren't for the fact that they post up most Amazon or product review based products so I can keep up with what's available they'd have long been removed
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