Forced Opt-In After Sales... Your Thoughts?

76 replies
Against my better judgement (maybe?) I decided, right at the last minute to NOT use forced opt-in after purchase... I did this on a few different funnels, including 2 of them that were already forced before..

I changed these and my most recent one I gave the option too.

What do YOU think about forced opt-in?

I will be testing both, but the number of opt-ins won't give me answers, it will be 6 months down the road when I find the pro's and con's..

Just wondering about other warrior thoughts on this..

Peace

Jay
#forced #optin #sales #thoughts
  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    I don't like forced opt in, especially the way many marketers use it. I find it offensive when I buy a product and get a message which tells me if I want my product then you have to sign up. That exact message is used more and more.

    On my download page I have the opt in box above the download link, with a message saying if you want to be kept informed and get update then please sign up, if not the download link is below.

    I checked before and over 90% of people were choosing to sign up.

    I think we are used to signing up, but if you are going to do a forced, then word it in such a way that you are not telling them if they don't they wont get their product.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
      Absolutely hate the forced opt in method. It pisses me off, so I'm sure it must do the same to others.

      Like Bev, I give people the option of signing up (with a large carrot as an inducement)

      Seems to work for me. I don't see the point in forcing people onto your list when they don't want to be there.

      Kim

      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      I don't like forced opt in, especially the way many marketers use it. I find it offensive when I buy a product and get a message which tells me if I want my product then you have to sign up. That exact message is used more and more.

      On my download page I have the opt in box above the download link, with a message saying if you want to be kept informed and get update then please sign up, if not the download link is below.

      I checked before and over 90% of people were choosing to sign up.

      I think we are used to signing up, but if you are going to do a forced, then word it in such a way that you are not telling them if they don't they wont get their product.
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      • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
        Originally Posted by Kim Standerline View Post

        Absolutely hate the forced opt in method. It pisses me off, so I'm sure it must do the same to others.

        Like Bev, I give people the option of signing up (with a large carrot as an inducement)

        Seems to work for me. I don't see the point in forcing people onto your list when they don't want to be there.

        Kim
        Question:

        Would you be too offended if someone sent you a confirmation email after purchase to be informed of support issues?
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    • Profile picture of the author blogonator
      On the same note, this issue would be solved if we are able to integrate a payment processor (paypal, others) to an autoresponder (GR, AWB, others). That way, leads are automatically added upon purchase. Looked high and low, but doesn't seem that it is possible to integrate the 2. Anyone knows?
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      • Profile picture of the author NPmaster
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Forced opt in.

          Let's see...I go to Burger King, order my Whopper and fries, pay my money
          and the cashier says to me I can't have my order until I give them my mailing
          address so they can send me a lot of crap that I don't want.

          What do you think?
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          • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Forced opt in.

            Let's see...I go to Burger King, order my Whopper and fries, pay my money
            and the cashier says to me I can't have my order until I give them my mailing
            address so they can send me a lot of crap that I don't want.

            What do you think?
            oh... c'mon Steve....

            for f*** sake... how in this green earth is that even remotely comparable to what we are discussing?...
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

              oh... c'mon Steve....

              for f*** sake... how in this green earth is that even remotely comparable to what we are discussing?...
              I think it is absolutely comparable. I ordered my product and they're not
              going to give it to me until I give them my mailing info? It's the exact same
              thing.

              Okay, let me then make it comparable.

              I don't like forced opt in...for anything.

              Give me the choice.

              Hope this answers your question.

              Sheesh.
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              • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
                Agreed. People pay for the product, and they should not be forced to do anything else unless you are telling them up front that you are lowering the price so that they have to subscribe...

                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I think it is absolutely comparable. I ordered my product and they're not
                going to give it to me until I give them my mailing info? It's the exact same
                thing.

                Okay, let me then make it comparable.

                I don't like forced opt in...for anything.

                Give me the choice.

                Hope this answers your question.

                Sheesh.
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          • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Forced opt in.

            Let's see...I go to Burger King, order my Whopper and fries, pay my money
            and the cashier says to me I can't have my order until I give them my mailing
            address so they can send me a lot of crap that I don't want.

            What do you think?
            Radio Shack did something very close to that for a couple of years. Before you could purchase, they'd ask for your address. Now, you could refuse to give it to them and still buy, but they didn't make that clear at the counter.

            They dropped it because it was hurting sales. I know it certainly annoyed me enough that I just didn't bother going to Radio Shack when there was another option.
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            • Profile picture of the author bionictortoise
              I put an Optin box before the Download page, but I set Aweber to automatically take them off the original list. How else would you obtain a list of Customers, separate from your Prospects list?

              I haven't had a complaint so far. I suppose I could tell them I'd like them to Opt-in so that they would now be on a Customer Subscriber list instead of just a Subscriber list.

              I don't mind the idea of an Optional Opt-in on the DL page, but wouldn't my Customer List be incomplete? As far as I know, even if I manually added them (which would be very time consuming) they would still be asked to confirm by clicking a link in an email, which would also be less than 100%.

              Is linking Aweber to DLGuard or 1ShoppingCart the only way to get buyers put on a Customer list automatically?

              Thanks
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        • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
          For awhile I was very hesitant to use aweber because people had to confirm their opt-in to a list after the purchased a product to be added to that "product customer" list. I thought people wouldn't do it.

          I just had the confirmation email tell them it would be beneficial to confirm and join the "product customer" list to be kept up to date and to be sure to receive customer support. Everyone confirmed by clicking the link to confirm they wanted to be on the list.

          So I hemmed and hawed and didn't act for awhile worrying about something that may happen...and in the end it had no effect.

          However, I wonder about that too. By forcing people to do something you would think the results wouldn't be positive...but only the numbers will tell for sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
        Originally Posted by hidman View Post

        On the same note, this issue would be solved if we are able to integrate a payment processor (paypal, others) to an autoresponder (GR, AWB, others). That way, leads are automatically added upon purchase. Looked high and low, but doesn't seem that it is possible to integrate the 2. Anyone knows?
        I have 1shoppingcart as my shoppingcart management system, and it does this - first, it has an autoresponder and broadcast (if you pay an extra monthly fee), so everyone who buys from you is on your list. Now, all they did was buy a product from me, they did not AGREE to be on a list, so I say proceed with caution - I think it's best to start out by sending an email thanking them for their purchase and sending them so free killer tips.

        1shoppingcart also has a way to integrate with Aweber so now every time someone buys something from me, they are on a special Aweber list I set up. Two potential drawbacks - one, again, they did not sign up to be on my list; and two, everyone who buys any product from me on 1shoppingcart is sent to the same list on Aweber. There is no way to set up separate lists - unless I manually do it and have everyone do confirmed opt-in to be on a specific list.

        E-Junkie is another shopping cart program where you can send emails to the people who bought your product through them; you pay a fee each time you do it but it's not a large fee.
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        • Profile picture of the author jmidas
          Here is why I dont think it is awful to require the double opt in:

          If I am your buyer - I just went through whatever sales process/relationship building process you led me through - I am now comfortable enough with you to give you my money. We now have a relationship where I am comfortable with/trust you. So, I would then be comfortable confirming my email. To me, once you are a buyer, it is no big deal at all to double opt in. Especially if i am told that this is the way I will continue to get info/support from you for the product I just spent my money on. In fact, like Marcanthony said, in many ways it is easier to swallow then double opting in at an earlier stage. (although, I ALWAYS require a double opt in before I give my leads anything)

          I am not clear why it it becoming "evil" to double opt in. I see this more and more on WF - people commenting how awful double opting in is. I just don't get it. Whether you are on the buyer or the seller side, it benefits YOU. Those of you who are scared your list won't respond or click that double opt link dont have a list worth a crap anyway then - and it is your fault for not building the necessary relationship/trust with them to start with - right from the start in your sales letter. Fact is, you won't loose business because those who are not serious enough to click a simple confirmation link are not going to be serious enough to give you their money.

          From the buyer side, I want what the seller has. So, why not double opt in?

          From the seller side, I dont want idiots wasting my time clogging up my list if they are not interested enough to click a simple link. I figure if someone is not serious enough to click a link, I dont want them - too many fish in the sea to bother with time-wasters.

          Besides, there is always the opt out link.
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        • Profile picture of the author blogonator
          Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

          I have 1shoppingcart as my shoppingcart management system, and it does this - first, it has an autoresponder and broadcast (if you pay an extra monthly fee), so everyone who buys from you is on your list. Now, all they did was buy a product from me, they did not AGREE to be on a list, so I say proceed with caution - I think it's best to start out by sending an email thanking them for their purchase and sending them so free killer tips.

          1shoppingcart also has a way to integrate with Aweber so now every time someone buys something from me, they are on a special Aweber list I set up. Two potential drawbacks - one, again, they did not sign up to be on my list; and two, everyone who buys any product from me on 1shoppingcart is sent to the same list on Aweber. There is no way to set up separate lists - unless I manually do it and have everyone do confirmed opt-in to be on a specific list.

          E-Junkie is another shopping cart program where you can send emails to the people who bought your product through them; you pay a fee each time you do it but it's not a large fee.
          Wow..Exactly what i was looking for. Thanks for the tip Dana.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin AKA Hubcap
        Originally Posted by hidman View Post

        On the same note, this issue would be solved if we are able to integrate a payment processor (paypal, others) to an autoresponder (GR, AWB, others). That way, leads are automatically added upon purchase. Looked high and low, but doesn't seem that it is possible to integrate the 2. Anyone knows?
        You can integrate Paypal witm Aweber's e-mail parser which will automatically add the people who buy from you to your customer list.

        Look here
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    • Profile picture of the author shane_k
      [quote=Bev Clement;646442]I don't like forced opt in, especially the way many marketers use it. I find it offensive when I buy a product and get a message which tells me if I want my product then you have to sign up. That exact message is used more and more.

      quote]


      I absolutely hate this. To have to opt-in to someone's list just to get a product I already PAID FOR, is ridiculous.

      When they do this after I get my download I just unsubscribe because if they force me to opt-in I know that they then are going to blast me with a whole bunch of emails promoting crap they are selling.

      And that is all they are concerned about is making more sales.

      Just two weeks ago I bought a product and was sent 5 EMAILS from an IMer promoting other products he was selling before he even sent me my download link.

      Shane_K
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    • Profile picture of the author Spinethetic
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      I don't like forced opt in, especially the way many marketers use it. I find it offensive when I buy a product and get a message which tells me if I want my product then you have to sign up. That exact message is used more and more.

      On my download page I have the opt in box above the download link, with a message saying if you want to be kept informed and get update then please sign up, if not the download link is below.

      I checked before and over 90% of people were choosing to sign up.

      I think we are used to signing up, but if you are going to do a forced, then word it in such a way that you are not telling them if they don't they wont get their product.
      I like that idea very much, availability, w/o being obtrusive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
    I agree with Bev.

    Never used forced optins and it has led to a very responsive list for me.

    Not tested it so can't help, but generally don't like the forced optin method (even though it might lead to a much bigger list). I'd rather have a smaller more responsive list.

    Just my 2 cents.
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  • Since my current product is physically delivered by mail, opting in to my list is a good idea, but not mandatory. I also tempt the buyer to opt in with the assurance that additional free bonuses will be made available in the future via email.
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    Morning Jay

    Down the line, it will be interesting to read your results.

    Are these non-IM niches?

    It would be interesting to compare this in both IM and non-IM niches. If your buyer is an IMer they can see it a mile away, but not so with non-IM buyers.

    A bit like confirmed opt-in - non IMers don't understand why they're being asked to do it.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Thank you all so far for your input.. it is greatly appreciated

      Originally Posted by Neil Morgan View Post

      Morning Jay
      Morning Neil... how are you?

      Are these non-IM niches?
      The one I mentioned above as the most recent one is in the IM niche... the others are outside in regular niches...

      It would be interesting to compare this in both IM and non-IM niches.
      This point above is something that caused me to think more about it over the past few months, the difference right now isn't visible, but I am looking forward to getting a good stack of stats to see what the score is on this..

      Peace

      Jay
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Neil Morgan View Post

      Morning Jay

      Down the line, it will be interesting to read your results.

      Are these non-IM niches?

      It would be interesting to compare this in both IM and non-IM niches. If your buyer is an IMer they can see it a mile away, but not so with non-IM buyers.

      A bit like confirmed opt-in - non IMers don't understand why they're being asked to do it.

      Cheers,

      Neil
      Just a side note. I once posted a thread asking why people who are in the "how to make money online" business get known by the term "IM"

      Many people commented and almost attacked me telling me - everyone who sells anything online is in the IM field not just people in the how to make money online field.

      However you use the term as I see most people using it. Someone who sells shoes online would not be referred to by most people as someone who is in the IM field. They would more likely be refferred to as..."they sell shoes online."
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        Just a side note. I once posted a thread asking why people who are in the "how to make money online" business get known by the term "IM"

        Many people commented and almost attacked me telling me - everyone who sells anything online is in the IM field not just people in the how to make money online field.

        However you use the term as I see most people using it. Someone who sells shoes online would not be referred to by most people as someone who is in the IM field. They would more likely be refferred to as..."they sell shoes online."
        NO.. he said they are in the IM niche... as a niche.. there is a distinction to be made that you missed back in that post of yours.
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        • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
          Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

          NO.. he said they are in the IM niche... as a niche.. there is a distinction to be made that you missed back in that post of yours.
          He also said...

          " If your buyer is an IMer they can see it a mile away, but not so with non-IM buyers.
          A bit like confirmed opt-in - non IMers don't understand why they're being asked to do it."

          And I know the above doesn't apply to this thread...but I did throw in my two cents in another message before I posted that one
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      • Profile picture of the author radhika
        Hate it!! The customer bought your product. He got what he wants. End of it ...

        If your product needs notifications or upgrade announcements? Then let them know that and ask for a opt-in. This opt-in can be single opt-in as they already your clients. ( But include unsubscribe link n every email though)

        But forced opt-in? Here is a new strategy emerging?

        .
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  • Profile picture of the author Kris Turner
    I've never had a complaint or an issue with forced opt-in after purchase.

    I think it helps if the purchase grants them access to a members' area, even if they've just bought an e-book.

    Maybe if you put your ebook and bonuses (or whatever else your product is) into a secured members area using something like DLGuard. There's good reason to ask them to opt-in then, so that you can email them their username and password, and remind them of updates to the members' area.

    I really don't think you need to be worried about forcing people to opt-in after purchase. And how else are you going to build a customer list?

    You're a very rare thing - an Internet marketer who is too considerate :p
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  • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
    I like forced opt-in after the sale...

    It's not much different than having an opt-in form on a squeeze page--It may be even better. The person that purchases your product is definitely interested in your stuff.

    After thinking about it, I'd rather be 'forced' to opt-in to download my purchase, rather than being forced to opt-in to read a sales page that has an offer that I'm not interested in.

    I might have to fill out 10 squeeze page opt-in forms before I'm presented with an acceptable offer--Then, I'm stuck with the boring task of unsubscribing from lists that I only ended up on because of my curiosity.

    Ultimately, if the word 'forced' has to be the word that describes it--I'd say that all opt-in forms are forcing you to do something, in one way or another. Isn't that the point?

    I'm all for the post sale optin--It puts me in the position to send product updates, and other types of follow up emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Did I make that clear? I agree with Steve If I pay for something I've exchanged my hard earned money for their goods I don't want to have to give something else as well before getting the goods!

    Rich
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Richard Tunnah View Post

      Hate it! Hate it! Hate it! Did I make that clear? I agree with Steve If I pay for something I've exchanged my hard earned money for their goods I don't want to have to give something else as well before getting the goods!

      Rich
      Hi Rich

      How are ya?..

      In relation to an informational product that may have updates, could need support.. extra additions etc..

      I don't think a burger and fries is on the same spot..imho

      Peace

      Jay
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
        Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

        Hi Rich

        How are ya?..

        In relation to an informational product that may have updates, could need support.. extra additions etc..

        I don't think a burger and fries is on the same spot..imho

        Peace

        Jay
        Hi Jay. Good..you?
        I think there are similarities. However maybe I should be more clear. If I'm getting a freebie I expect to have to opt-in. If it's a $1 shot deal I expect to opt-in. If it states I'll be required to opt-in when buying then I expect it. But to be forced to opt in after buying without knowing before buying bugs me. Maybe I'm leaving big money on the table by not forcing opt-in and should be testing it but I'm not confortable doing it!

        Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Jay burger and ebook can be seen as the same when the supplier won't give the goods until you sign up for their list.

    I expect to be asked to sign up for a list when I buy something, and if you don't force you will find the majority still do. But what I don't like is when they word it and tell me I will not get my product until I sign up. That breaks PayPal TOS, sure there are other things as well that it breaks the law on.

    Floyd no problem having a follow up, in fact if someone is selling something which needs support or going to be updated, then great tell me, let me decide. Force me, but don't tell me I can't have my product unless I sign up.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
    Two things:

    1. No one really likes to be forced to do anything; and
    2. The concept of forced opt-in caters to an insecurity

    If your marketing and copy is pretty solid, people should be willing to opt-in at that point - especially since they're in action mode and actually bought something.

    Try a line like, here's the link to your download, and sign up for the newsletter and we'll send you a complementary report/program/etc that'll make your purchase even way more powerful.

    How you set that up, though, is up to your creative genius.

    Eric
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Like others said...just integrate with aweber and avoid the form all together. That way, everyone gets what they want.
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Since you asked for opinions, I'm writing my answer before it's influenced by the other replies...

    I think forced opt-in has its place. If your product requires constant updates, and the value of the product would suffer without them, go with forced opt-in. You're doing your buyers a favor.

    Otherwise, I don't like it. Especially if you call it an "update list" and the only updates I ever get relate to which affiliate offer you're plugging today. I find this one a lot with scripts and software - the only way to get revised versions of the product is to be on the update list. Only the product is never updated, and you get hammered with pitches for every product on Clickbank...

    EDIT:

    One of the reasons I like the RAP system is the ability to send product updates to the address the buyer used to pay for the product. I feel free to use that list for critical updates - product revisions, etc. I do NOT use that list to send additional offers, etc.

    For that, I use a voluntary opt-in on the download page. I position the confirmation as a delivery confirmation, rather than as confirming a desire to be on the list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    Hey Jay,

    I use DLGuard to automatically send the GetResponse confirmation to buyers. That gives them the choice to jump on the newsletter immediately after purchase....but it does so during a "hot button" moment then the purchase is fresh. So far it's worked with 80% success.

    Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

    Against my better judgement (maybe?) I decided, right at the last minute to NOT use forced opt-in after purchase... I did this on a few different funnels, including 2 of them that were already forced before..

    I changed these and my most recent one I gave the option too.

    What do YOU think about forced opt-in?

    I will be testing both, but the number of opt-ins won't give me answers, it will be 6 months down the road when I find the pro's and con's..

    Just wondering about other warrior thoughts on this..

    Peace

    Jay
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  • Profile picture of the author BlogBrowser
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I see purchasing a product as a contract between buyer and seller. The sales page tells me what I'm buying and convinces me to buy. I click a "buy now" link and pay the money.

      I expect the product. I don't expect the seller to add another condition after the money is paid. That's what a forced optin does. It angers me, I do unsubscribe - and leaves a bad impression of that seller with me.

      I have no problem with the option to subscribe in a thank you email or to receiving a confirmation email after I've received the product. If the product seems good, I often sign up or confirm.

      "Sign up to get notified on any revamped version we might publish in the near future... as a customer, you'll get it at no charge!".
      Does accepting that give the marketer permission to start promoting other products to that person? I wouldn't think so. Bev's addition of "and kept informed" is a good one.

      Opinions aside - if it works for you, use it. But track it carefully to see if it's building a good and responsive list or just adding email addresses. It may be effective when your product sells to those new to buying online.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    Thank you ALL for your contributions so far... fantastic thoughts, opinions and more..



    Great stuff

    w00t!!

    Peace

    Jay
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      you dont promote crap to your customers (that'd be suicidal
      Yes, it is - but many do just that. Of course it's to build YOUR list - but telling the customer he is signing up "for future updates of this product" and adding him to a list where others products are promoted is a trick to get signups.

      Adding the term "and other information" may protect the list owner from spam complaints. Such complaints can hurt even if they are unwarranted as you have to defend yourself. If you can't prove the person was informed you can lose your autoresponder or worse. Any method that causes list signups to feel abused or tricked increases the likelihood of such complaints.

      It's a process of building a list and protecting it, too.

      kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          I'm another one for giving customers the choice. I don't like it when I'm forced to give up my email after I already paid for my product. I agree with Roy about building a more responsive list vs. the list you would get using the forced opt-in post-sales method. I offer the choice on my download page.

          I wouldn't do it in the IM niche at all. Outside maybe it's worth a test but not in the IM niche. A lot of angry & jaded folks in the IM niche. Forcing them to opt-in to your list after they purchases might send them over the edge.
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  • Profile picture of the author ThePokerEconomist
    I suggest not having a forced Opt In and just 'temping' your visitor/customer with a free bonus or the such to get them to Opt In.

    I think there is a difference however, between IM's and other random customers in a difference niche.

    Internet Marketers are going to be pissed about a forced Opt In. Random people will just assume it HAS to be done this way. So I suppose it depends on who your demographics are... how much do they know about IM... etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    I guess the real question is whether you will lose a significant amount of sales with a forced optin, and the only way you will find out is the old-fashioned way - testing and tracking.

    I mean, everything that you do, no matter how high quality your products and services, is going to annoy SOMEONE. Long sales letters annoy some people, popups annoy some people, video that starts playing the second you click on a sales page annoy some people...but lots of very successful people use all of these tools and I would have to assume that the only reason is - because they work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    I wouldn't force an optin, but if people don't take it then they shouldn't be surprised when they don't get free products updates. I can't chase everyone individually, so if they don't give me permission to contact them, there isn't much I can do in that way
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  • Profile picture of the author Louis Raven
    Hey Jay,

    Capturing buyers is what I've found to be the most priceless thing I've ever done.

    But, I don't feel I have to make them sign up to get the product as I just offer them such stuff they couldn't possibly resist.

    Also, autoresponders can be a great asset for product delivery so not everyone is forcing you just to mail you promotions etc.

    I don't use forced opt-in, but if I couldn't capture them any other way I sure would consider it. Yes, even though I know it pisses some (including me) off.

    Louis
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Louis Raven View Post

      Hey Jay,

      Capturing buyers is what I've found to be the most priceless thing I've ever done.

      But, I don't feel I have to make them sign up to get the product as I just offer them such stuff they couldn't possibly resist.

      Also, autoresponders can be a great asset for product delivery so not everyone is forcing you just to mail you promotions etc.

      I don't use forced opt-in, but if I couldn't capture them any other way I sure would consider it. Yes, even though I know it pisses some (including me) off.

      Louis
      Many thanks for your thoughts Louis...

      Right now I am leaving it optional and testing it against previous results.. but it's cool to see what others think.. glad you weighed in with your thoughts

      Kindly

      Jay
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      Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    The real question is does your payment processor allow it. Most payment processors have requirements built into their TOS that says you can't force the customer to do anything extra after payment in order to recieve what they pay for.

    Simply put, once your customer pays you should be sending them to the product without requiring them to do anything extra in order to recieve it or you risk losing your account with your payment processor.

    There are countless solutions available today that allow you to add your customers to your lists in the background without them having to do anything extra. Placing barriors in front of paying customers is a form of ransom. You are holding the product they have already paid for until they give you extra information. Some people may get away with it, but it is a good way to get your accounts shut down with the payment processors.
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  • Profile picture of the author steve m
    Jay

    My thoughts are that with a forced opt-in the list is not going to be genuin, rather then a list that they have opted into just to get the product that they have paid for. TBH my view would be that some people would see the follow up email an think "Hey thats the guy that forced me" to sign up. Maybe I wont open that second message.

    I know thats not a very good explnation but it sounds better in my head, only the words are not flowing the same way ha ha.

    Put it this way, if I could have a list of 8,000 double optin (on there own accord)
    Or a 10,000 list that were forced into it.

    I know which I would go for.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hi Jay,

    I hate forced opt-ins.

    I understand why people do them, but if you have to force people onto your list, maybe you got the wrong relationship to start with.
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author steve m
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Hi Jay,

      I hate forced opt-ins.

      I understand why people do them, but if you have to force people onto your list, maybe you got the wrong relationship to start with.

      Andy

      A forced list is not really a list in my eyes, or am I wrong?
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    Hey Jay,

    In my opinion, there is no longer a need for it. Every system I use from Butterfly Marketing to JVManager 2 Fantasos this is done in the background.

    So, there is no longer a need to force someone to opt in before their download.

    Even if this could not be done in the background, I would not use the forced opt in though. I just don't like it.

    But, like I said really there is no need for it. If you are using the latest software you can easily get around this. This can be done with RAP also, which I know you use.

    Regards,

    Shannon Herod
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewd
    Personally, I have no problems with having to opt-in after purchase.

    My customers get sent an email to their purchase email with a link
    to their product, but I also have the "forced" opt-in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
      Personally I find it funny that people are SO against it... but they're HAPPY to be automatically added to a list???

      The only difference is 3 seconds of your time and being made aware of the fact that you're opting in to a list. If anything it's better for the end user because they KNOW they're being added to a list and can opt-out sooner.

      I've used both methods and don't have a problem with anyone using either one.

      Considering that most marketers allow you to unsubscribe at any time I think there are FAR better uses of people's time than complaining about having to opt-in.
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        This happened to me last week and I am still thinking about complaining to Paypal about it.

        The sales contract is very clear.

        I pay you money, you give me the product.

        If, after the purchase, the seller introduces a change to the contract solely for their benefit, that is definitely not on.

        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Louis Raven
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          This happened to me last week and I am still thinking about complaining to Paypal about it.

          The sales contract is very clear.

          I pay you money, you give me the product.

          If, after the purchase, the seller introduces a change to the contract solely for their benefit, that is definitely not on.

          Martin
          Ah, good point Martin.

          But, where in the "contract" does it state how you are able to receive this product?

          Would you feel offended if I asked for your shipping address and said you can't receive the product (pysical) until you give me it?

          I'm again coming from the forced opt-in for delivery angle.

          Louis
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        • Profile picture of the author matthewd
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          This happened to me last week and I am still thinking about complaining to Paypal about it.
          A week ago and you are still worrying about it?!
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
            Originally Posted by matthewd View Post

            A week ago and you are still worrying about it?!
            Not worrying about it, thinking about it. A decision like that is not something I take lightly. I can look at it more dispassionately after a week.

            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author PDave01
              I think your example is lacking, Louis. When purchasing a physical product online, the customer is asked for the email address before they hit the purchase button, so that is part of their expectations. In my payment process, I ask for an email address before sending them off to paypal (I use JVM2). Never had any complaints. On the other hand, I was seriously annoyed that the last 2 products I purchased required me to sign up after I purchased to get them. I think it's about what folks are expecting. After I pay, I personally expect to be treated like royalty, not like a beggar knocking at the door. Before I pay, I'm perfectly happy to give my info out though.
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            • Profile picture of the author matthewd
              Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

              Not worrying about it, thinking about it. A decision like that is not something I take lightly. I can look at it more dispassionately after a week.

              Martin
              Yeah, reporting someone to an authority of any sort
              is never anything to take lightly, but I am just surprised
              that you would still be thinking about it after a week.

              I would never consider it to be a big enough deal to
              bother with for a second, let alone a week.
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      • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
        Originally Posted by Kyle Tully View Post

        Personally I find it funny that people are SO against it... but they're HAPPY to be automatically added to a list???

        The only difference is 3 seconds of your time and being made aware of the fact that you're opting in to a list. If anything it's better for the end user because they KNOW they're being added to a list and can opt-out sooner.

        I've used both methods and don't have a problem with anyone using either one.

        Considering that most marketers allow you to unsubscribe at any time I think there are FAR better uses of people's time than complaining about having to opt-in.
        Many thanks for your contribution here Kyle..

        You see this is what gets me... I don't really want to automatically add my customers... but it would seem that most people see this LESS of a problem than forced opt-in, which baffles me a little..lol

        But there are some products that I know hands down will get updates later.. so it is important for the longevity of my products that I update my customer....

        IM strategy can become outdated so quick, that I want to update on each strategy as I adjust it.. with no update, some customers are going to be left in the thought that my product is outdated, when really it has been updated 3 times since they purchased.

        I'm testing and tracking all options, of course... but it is fantastic to see the thoughts of so many warriors..

        Thank you all for your contributions... fantastic stuff

        Peace

        Jay
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        Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Whisonant
    I hate them and find that it's so much better just to offer the buyer an unexpected free bonus product if they opt-in. Works very well and it does not piss off the buyer.

    Re's
    Rob Whisonant
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    The difference is that when you do it automatically in the background they still have the option to not double opt in. The automatic method will still send them the initial confirmation email, but it is not required that they opt in to recieve what they paid for. This method adds them to the list but gives them the option to opt in or not.

    When you force them to opt in before they recieve their product you remove that choice from them. There is a huge difference in offering customers the chance to get upgrades and forcing them to join your list to access something already paid for.

    If you want your customers to join your update list the best option would probably be to use the automatic method that adds them in the background, then on the download page add a note that says something similar to this....

    "In order to recieve updates and to make sure you have the most current information available please check your email for a confirmation to join our mailing list. For your convience we have already added your name to the list, all you have to do is just click a confirmation link in our email. If you do not choose to recieve the update emails you do not have to do anything as only people who have confirmed will recieve the update emails."
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    • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      The difference is that when you do it automatically in the background they still have the option to not double opt in. The automatic method will still send them the initial confirmation email, but it is not required that they opt in to recieve what they paid for. This method adds them to the list but gives them the option to opt in or not.

      When you force them to opt in before they recieve their product you remove that choice from them. There is a huge difference in offering customers the chance to get upgrades and forcing them to join your list to access something already paid for.
      OK so you're talking about forced opt-in confirmation after a sale.

      That's a little more annoying for the end user I agree.

      (Whenever I've done "forced opt-in" it's only to enter your email address NOT go through the confirmation process -- I sell doing that in my copy.)

      But still... you're talking about 1 minute to do it and then immediately unsubscribe if you want. Everyone has spent longer on here whinging about it!
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  • Profile picture of the author FranMurray
    Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

    Against my better judgement (maybe?) I decided, right at the last minute to NOT use forced opt-in after purchase... I did this on a few different funnels, including 2 of them that were already forced before..

    I changed these and my most recent one I gave the option too.

    What do YOU think about forced opt-in?

    I will be testing both, but the number of opt-ins won't give me answers, it will be 6 months down the road when I find the pro's and con's..

    Just wondering about other warrior thoughts on this..

    Peace

    Jay
    I am happy that I came across this thread today. I have the same issue, I have an Opt-in page even before they see the sales pages.

    I think it would be annoying for someone to have to opt-in after they ... already signed up to my list and then (hopefully) bought the product.

    I am mean I get the point to automate the process of taking them off the "old" list and putting them on a "buyers" list. Something just does not settle right making a paying customer do that.

    .....

    Thanks for the comments and suggestion made to original post however. I have lots to think about.

    Fran
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  • Profile picture of the author Sam Mccallon
    i think the majority of people here are reading way into this too much
    As mentioned way at the start of the thread, "opting in" is meaningless to non im ers
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    If you make it *beneficial* for your customers to opt-in after purchase, you can easily remove the need to use force.



    Steve
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    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author dave830
    Tried it and stopped.

    Simply put, it upsets people, as no matter how much you put on your site, many still come back and feel "tricked into something". If the product they buy is a continuity product, fine.

    But if you're offering as a bonus product "a 3 month membership to my platinum club"... get ready for customer support issues.

    Dave
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    I don't have anything to offer, but have a great day anyway!

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  • Profile picture of the author Droopy Dawg
    I don't have a problem with "forced" optins... if the seller becauses a PITA with the autoresponder then I simply unsubscribe.

    No big deal.. not to me anyway.

    Everyone has their peaves...
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
    Unless I'm missing something, this issue is moot to me. I think Kyle Tully addressed this above.

    I've set up my shopping cart so whenever someone buys a product they are automatically added to my e-mail list - which they are told on the sales page.

    In most shopping carts (like 1SC) this is easy to facilitate - you simply tell the shopping cart to add every purchaser to your autoresponder list.

    So why do an extra forced opt-in? This seems like an unnecessary step.

    Now, as far as my reasoning behind this...

    After I signed up for satellite TV service I started receiving regular mail advertisements from the company. Why? Because I'm their customer and that's what I agreed to.

    Do I complain about receiving those ads from them? No. If I want them to stop I know how to make it happen.

    My point: I have no problem whatsoever automatically adding every new customer to my autoresponder list as described above. No need for forced opt-in.

    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Silvester
    Hi Guys,

    I find this particularly interesting.

    There are a variety of ways to automatically add someone to a list..but
    the worst thing with those systems is that they always use your paypal
    email address. Thats the part that I hate. Because I dont use my paypal
    address to get marketing messages or downloads.

    Another thing...

    I find it completely amusing that only "Marketers" complain about forced
    opt-in after the sale. Because I have products in very close to 50 niches
    outside of Internet Marketing and I have not 1 complaint within those niches
    about having to opt-in after the sale. A Big Fat Zero!

    Maybe It's becasue they think that its pefectly normal...I dont know?

    I can understand that it maybe a hassle for someone to double opt-in
    before they get a download...But thats why I use single optin.

    Time to rock the boat!

    On that note...I bet alot of people here that are dead against getting buyers
    opt-in details dont even have a list of "Buyers". If you are not looking after
    the guys that have purchased your product...you are neglecting them and that
    is the worst thing that you can do in business.

    If your not capturing details as part of the sale process, Internet Marketing is a hobby
    for you and you are not taking this shit seriously enough.

    Take Care,

    Michael Silvester
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      Not every system uses the paypal email address. It amazes me how often membership scripts are overlooked when people talk about selling products online.

      Every membership script I know of that allows for automatic adding to a list uses the email that the member types in to the sign up form to add the member to the list.

      All the issues brought up about road blocks to adding members to a list automatically have been addressed and taken care of by pretty much every decent membership script on the market.

      Keep in mind, I'm not talking about basic scripts that just handle the payment and delivery, that part is easy and there are hundreds of options there.

      I am talking about complete solutions that take care of everything for you. From single product sales, multiple products, subscriptions, you name it and it's there type of scripts are what I'm talking about.

      Solutions like LFM, SMP, BFM, and others handle this automatically and the functions are built in from the get go without anything needing to be added.

      Irionic that so many people push the products that are designed for single purposes saying they will do the job for everyone then turn around and complain later that "it sucks that you can't do this ..." when there are already really great programs out there that handle all of it and usually cost less than some of the "bargin" solutions.

      Originally Posted by Michael Silvester View Post

      Hi Guys,

      I find this particularly interesting.

      There are a variety of ways to automatically add someone to a list..but
      the worst thing with those systems is that they always use your paypal
      email address. Thats the part that I hate. Because I dont use my paypal
      address to get marketing messages or downloads.
      Michael Silvester
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    I always use the "Optional" opt-in method for my customers...

    The big thing is to give them a good reason to opt-in to your list after their purchase. If you're selling software you may want to ask for the opt-in on the download page and in return they will get free upgrades (or a huge discount)...

    Give people a good reason to do what you want them to do and 9 times out of 10 they will.

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author jdsonline
    If it is used for product updates and maybe an occasional advertisement, I'm fine with it. I do get so annoyed when I pay for something just to opt-in and get email ads every other day.

    I don't think that it is a terrible thing to use...it just has to be used appropriately.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Silvester
    Johnny,

    Your script is looking better and better
    each day mate

    Take Care,

    Michael Silvester
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  • Profile picture of the author mhobbs25
    I have never had very happy people when I forced them to opt in...

    So I advise against it...
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    I see this thread is still around and getting conversation, which is a good thing.

    However, I think many people are still missing the point.

    The discussion was not about adding someone to a list for a free product, or for upgrades, or just to add them to a list.

    The discussion was about forcing someone to opt into a list before recieving a product they had already paid for.

    Read that last line carefully. That means if you don't opt into the list you don't get what you paid for, period. It's not about different methods of doing opt ins, or where in the process to put an opt in. It's not about adding someone to a list prior to payment or after delivery of the product.

    The discussion was centered around forcing someone to opt into a list to access a download they had already paid for. IMO, once you have their money they should not be required to do anything else to access what they paid for.

    If you want someone to be put on a list there are many ways to do it. Have them opt in as part of a signup process like membership scripts do, put a list opt in form on the download page and advise customers to opt in to recieve updates, do any one of a hundred things but when you tell a customer "I have your money but unless you agree to opt into my list I won't give you what you paid for" is not only unethical but borderline illegal. ( Again, this is my opinion only and should not be taken as fact without checking for yourself. )
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