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WSO Quality Control (my rant)

by Hopeless Bromantic
125 replies
Sturgeon's Law says, "90% of science fiction is crud, but then again, 90% of everything is crud." However, even Mr. Sturgeon would be disappointed by the quality of the WSOs around here.

Understand, I have no problem with the idea of WSOs in general, and I'm glad that WF provides a forum in which to market them. IMers are a very real and large demographic, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with selling products or services to them. The problem comes in when WSO sellers learn a few tricks of the IM trade and misuse them - which results in products that are priced way above their value and programs that have no reasonable hope of success. It's time to take quality up a notch, and this is why:

First off, most sellers in this market segment rely on their next promotion for continued income. Of course there are exceptions: the truly outstanding products are sold from a single site for years, and almost all the long-term sales come from word of mouth. But if you have a crappy product, you can still keep the revenue coming in by releasing another crappy product in a month or two, as long as your list is big enough. You don't need a high response rate (just a quick response), and it doesn't cost any more to promote to a large list than to a small one. Good products or bad, the online game is won by the size of your list. The sellers with crappy products generally sell to the same group of customers again, and again, and again.

Another problem comes from misusing price points. A "coincidentally" large number of WSOs have one-time prices in the neighborhood of $200 and/or monthly prices of around $20. Obviously some of these are genuinely worth the price. But in other cases, the sellers are simply using market research data (gathered over many years) indicating that these are prices that the customers will readily accept.

The third problem is specific to various programs that have payouts: these can be legally delayed almost indefinitely if the program owners are less than ethical. For example, they can make the minimum check too large, demand extra paperwork, and slow down replies to associate requests by weeks (until many of them just give up). In the worst cases, some of these programs managed to go out of business before paying any commissions at all. When I see a pitch for something like "Give me $20 a month and I'll make you $10,000 a month in commissions," it amazes me that so many clients don't bother to wonder how you can take more money out of a program than there is money coming into it.

Anyway, that's my rant. The WF staff may or may not be able to do better quality control in the WSO forum, although I hope they can and are willing to. But even if not, you can now use what you learned above to spot the WSO snake oil.
#control #quality #rant #wso
  • Profile picture of the author crissie
    The "reviews" that show up minutes after a WSO is posted kind of put me off too. It's hard to know where to pocket.
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    • Profile picture of the author louie6925
      Originally Posted by eglassman88 View Post

      Those are legitimate reviews. The creators of the WSO's give the product out free to a few members so they can read through it and then write a review. They do this for the sole purpose of having reviews to post with their WSO.
      Sorry, but that is priceless!.....

      Yes they are real people, NO they are not real reviews!

      ......heard of JV'ing? I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, obviously!, but seriously go to the forum now and find regular wso sellers, check out the first page of reviews and note down the warriors leaving them. Now find another by the same author, check the names of the warriors leaving reviews on that one.......you will see a pattern forming.

      Now check out the reviewers and see if they have released any wso's, the ones that have will have the original seller writing a review!........JV'ing in motion.

      Like i said, its not everyone, but very common! A little due dilligence uncovers all sorts!
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    • Profile picture of the author KriiV
      Originally Posted by crissie View Post

      The "reviews" that show up minutes after a WSO is posted kind of put me off too. It's hard to know where to pocket.
      This. It all comes down to buyer awareness. If less buyers fell for these tricks, we'd see a decline in the number of dodgy WSO's.
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      • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
        Crap, I'm out of popcorn.

        This is one entertaining thread at least. Completely ridiculous, but entertaining.

        I especially love all the "they could raise the bar" type comments that in no way shape or form actually present an applicable idea on how to do such a thing with a positive result. To you people who feel it could be done better, go build yourself a forum. Get yourself a 16th of the amount of members there are on this forum and then you can come back here and tell everyone how sorry you are. It will only take about 3 weeks probably of having a forum with traffic to it. Hell, you don't even need ANY traffic to it and you will be spending all your time deleting. I know this, I tried it. Screw that is all I have to say about it.

        Look, this business has scams in it's roots. There has always been and always will be scummy little leeches that plague society. A lot of you people need to get burned and then burned again bad to get yourself a clue for the next time you get an idea. For every scammer selling an easy button that gets essploded, ten more pop out of the ashes. You're dipping your toes into an ocean of s**t that you don't have a clue how to wade through.

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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Greene
      Originally Posted by eglassman88 View Post

      Those are legitimate reviews. The creators of the WSO's give the product out free to a few members so they can read through it and then write a review. They do this for the sole purpose of having reviews to post with their WSO.
      It can be true but there can be some members who are not satisfied with the WSO and left negitive feedback but in the WSO, that review does not show up. I have seen a lot of warrior complaining about different WSO's. There must be a way to get out all these problems.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Alex Greene View Post

        It can be true but there can be some members who are not satisfied with the WSO and left negitive feedback but in the WSO, that review does not show up.
        This is because when reputable vendors get a negative review, they fix it before the WSO goes up. When John Schwartz offered the opinion that my SEO product seemed too short for $37 and needed more bonus material as well as more hands-on, nuts-and-bolts instruction... I added that material and sent him a new link. The second time, he gave a good review, which I published with the WSO.

        It would have been easier to just not put his review on that WSO, but I do not send out review copies to populate my sales page. I send them out to get reviews. They are as much for me as they are for prospective customers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Gerald Arno
          Banned
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          This is because when reputable vendors get a negative review, they fix it before the WSO goes up. When John Schwartz offered the opinion that my SEO product seemed too short for $37 and needed more bonus material as well as more hands-on, nuts-and-bolts instruction... I added that material and sent him a new link. The second time, he gave a good review, which I published with the WSO.

          It would have been easier to just not put his review on that WSO, but I do not send out review copies to populate my sales page. I send them out to get reviews. They are as much for me as they are for prospective customers.
          You make a good point here. That´s why you should always hand out review copies before you launch a product. You have to make sure that the people you´re giving a review copy are capable of telling you the values as well as the leaks of your product.

          Constructive customer feedback, whether it´s positive or negative is one of the best ways to rapidly improve the quality of your product. You can´t really rely on intuition when it comes to product improvement. The only thing that matters is data.

          You must be willing to openly accept feedback in any form or you are set for failure. I believe that you can make any customer happy who is not satisfied with your product. There are always ways to work through dissatisfaction and how well you do it comes down to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
    Either you are confusing the WSO forum with some other forum, or I want what you're smoking.

    1.) Costs the same amount to mail a small list as it does to mail a big list...? No.
    2.) Market research? on HERE.... hahahahahahahahah.... I don't care who ya are, that's funny right thar
    3.) Misusing price points? Well on this we agree, just on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. The $10 100% commission model is the frieken HOLY GRAIL to WSO vendors and affiliates... not these high prices you're claiming.
    4.) legally withholding payouts indefinitely? Most WSO are served using instant commission platforms that pay affiliates instantly at the point of sale.

    <passes the bong>
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    • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
      Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

      Either you are confusing the WSO forum with some other forum, or I want what you're smoking.

      1.) Costs the same amount to mail a small list as it does to mail a big list...? No.
      I'm willing to give you this one, because it's splitting hairs. The difference in cost is small enough not to have a significant impact on expected profit margins.

      2.) Market research? on HERE.... hahahahahahahahah.... I don't care who ya are, that's funny right thar
      Who said it came from HERE?
      No more bong for you!
      3.) Misusing price points? Well on this we agree, just on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. The $10 100% commission model is the frieken HOLY GRAIL to WSO vendors and affiliates... not these high prices you're claiming.
      The actual price is almost beside the point. The point is that the value of what's being sold doesn't come close to the price.
      4.) legally withholding payouts indefinitely? Most WSO are served using instant commission platforms that pay affiliates instantly at the point of sale.
      Every commission payer that wants to stay in business had better build in some kind of delay. And there are those who take that delay to ridiculous extremes.
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      • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
        Ok.. I have nothing better to do...

        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        I'm willing to give you this one, because it's splitting hairs. The difference in cost is small enough not to have a significant impact on expected profit margins.

        Have you actually LOOKED at the costs of mailing lists of 1,000, 10,000 and 100,000 subscribers?

        Who said it came from HERE?
        No more bong for you!

        You misunderstand. If you think anyone on 'warrior forum' is doing 'market' research, you aren't stoned enough. Keep the bong. You're gonna need it.

        The actual price is almost beside the point. The point is that the value of what's being sold doesn't come close to the price.

        If you don't think the stuff being sold is worth $10....put the bong back down. I'll get you the hookah.

        Every commission payer that wants to stay in business had better build in some kind of delay. And there are those who take that delay to ridiculous extremes

        Well...you seem to be very confused about who should delay what to who for how long....

        Now I'll be the first one to say that not holding back 'commission' is a risky proposition (oh wait... I have, on several occassions) but your rant here is saying that they vendors DO hold back the commissions, when the fact is, they don't .... because 'instant commissions' are part of that "WaFo WSO Holy Grail".... (the Kool Aid in it tastes great)

        Now you have the bong and the hookah... hmmm... I guess I'll have a nice rum and coke and a bag of popcorn as I watch the rest of this thread.

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        • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
          Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

          Ok.. I have nothing better to do...
          Now you have the bong and the hookah... hmmm... I guess I'll have a nice rum and coke and a bag of popcorn as I watch the rest of this thread.

          Pass the popcorn, please!
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      • Profile picture of the author Walter Parrish
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        I'm willing to give you this one, because it's splitting hairs. The difference in cost is small enough not to have a significant impact on expected profit margins.

        Who said it came from HERE?
        No more bong for you!
        The actual price is almost beside the point. The point is that the value of what's being sold doesn't come close to the price.
        Every commission payer that wants to stay in business had better build in some kind of delay. And there are those who take that delay to ridiculous extremes.
        Just list 5 WSO's that recently went out at 200 bucks and we'll be happy lolol.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        The actual price is almost beside the point. The point is that the value of what's being sold doesn't come close to the price.
        Actually the price point is hugely important. See the $10 is important. The buyer is getting a deal from a product creator who in some cases may have created the product because they just got the concept in a program they paid $500 for.

        Now this allows real solid information on how to make money accessible to the new people who are just starting out and have no idea where to spend their money. They can learn about this business and the many different ways to earn money online. CPA,JV,AFFILIATE and on and on and on.

        Now this "dear in the headlights newbie" has a place to start. Then they buy a new one and start trying again. Due to the price point being so attractive there will no doubt be some scammers. A sad side affect to making money online. Our newbie has learned that sometimes in life you get the #$%^ end of the stick. I wish it wasn't so, but it happens. I paid a lot more than $10 to learn that.

        So our newbie now gets this WSO for $9.93 on a dime sale and they sit down focus and guess what??? They make money, and they get a few leads, and their list begins to grow. They have done it they made $150 in one month. Next step..... Scale up. Now our newbie has a list growing daily have added some new tweeks to the system and the see consistent results. Then they would like to share their system of getting results. Now they are a marketer.

        You see $10 products have allowed a great many warriors to succeed, and they have gone on to contribute and give back to the forum "The War Room" posting helping and growing.

        One last thing. I review WSO's and I buy 98% of them. The other ones I get as review copies. There have also been some grrrrrrat WSO's come out lately!

        The problem with your rant is that you are picking on a small group that is comprised mostly of warriors trying and failing. To me that is growing and learning. I simply ask for a refund get my money back and move on. You wrote as though you have WSO x-ray vision..... I don't doubt that you do. I just don't think that you are seeing the right side of the forum. I only picked one quote because I have been known to carry on a bit:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Who is forcing you to participate? Simple solution. Don't play. End of rant comment.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Who is forcing you to participate? Simple solution. Don't play. End of rant comment.
      It's the simplest solution, yes. It's just not a very good one.

      Suppose there are some savvy entrepreneurs on WF who know how to spot the bad WSOs but are willing to buy a good one every so often.

      If they have to spend hours sifting through the crap simply to FIND the good ones, it's more likely that they won't play, and then both sides lose. At the end of the day, quality control has its benefits.
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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        It's the simplest solution, yes. It's just not a very good one.

        Suppose there are some savvy entrepreneurs on WF who know how to spot the bad WSOs but are willing to buy a good one every so often.

        If they have to spend hours sifting through the crap simply to FIND the good ones, it's more likely that they won't play, and then both sides lose. At the end of the day, quality control has its benefits.
        Maybe you should make up a "Fairness" sign and go down to Walmart. You can walk up and back in front of the entrance insisting Walmart tests and certifies everything they sell. Or, you can shop at a store that's known to carry only the finest merchandise.

        But if it makes you feel better to post here demanding imagined justice that will never come, carry on... :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author ahlexis
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        It's the simplest solution, yes. It's just not a very good one.

        Suppose there are some savvy entrepreneurs on WF who know how to spot the bad WSOs but are willing to buy a good one every so often.

        If they have to spend hours sifting through the crap simply to FIND the good ones, it's more likely that they won't play, and then both sides lose. At the end of the day, quality control has its benefits.

        No one has to spend hours sifting through stuff here @ Warrior Forum. That's what the search feature of the board is for. If you don't like it, there's always Google. Try entering "site:warriorforum.com ____________ " and insert your business model/search term(s) in the blank.

        Wait. You don't have a business model? Then perhaps you need to figure that out first before you seek to buy WSOs. It helps you avoid "shiny object syndrome" and it also will speed your success by giving you a laser-sharp focus on exactly where you are trying to go.

        But this forum is solid gold exactly the way it is.

        If you have a wallet and are freely spending money on Warrior Forum without guarding that wallet, maybe this is not such a good place for you.

        What I have been doing and might be a good idea for others as well is, I have decided to scan Warrior Forum from time to time using the search feature, searching only in the Special Offer forum. I keep in mind "if it does not fit MY business model, I'm not going to buy it so I don't need to know about it, no matter what it is or how much money can be made."

        This helps in multiple ways.

        The most obvious one is, before I can put that rule to good use, I have to actually HAVE a business model, an actual game plan, one that I am following in order to build my business. That requires me to think things through, to plan things before getting on Warrior Forum. So good quality or bad, if it doesn't fit then I must skip it. (Oh, wait. That's a different forum. Sorry.) That means if I am going after the offline market, then no CPA WSO is going to help or work for me; I just plain don't need to know about it at this time, no matter how much money is on the table.

        If you are looking to make $2,378 dollars next week and you have never done IM, then you are going to be disappointed with just about every product you buy. No product is going to be able to take any meaningful number of people from 0 to or in 30 days. Wake up.
        Believe it or not, I can actually show you a WSO where you could actually really DO that $2,378 OR MORE. But you have to be willing to get a little uncomfortable as you commit to TAKING ACTION. And you have to have a big-picture mentality and actually focus on that big picture. But double this amount in net profit in 30-60 days has been done by many people who have bought that WSO that started out somewhere in the sub-$40 price range. It's probably around $75 to $100 now (dime sale and all). Still worth every penny. And for some forum members, this WSO has actually changed their lives. People are quitting jobs behind the success they've gotten from this WSO and the action they have put into their business. (And no, the WSO is not mine!)

        Ironically, the idea was originally provided for free in the main forum and an enormous amount of detail was given before the WSO was created. Some people were able to get some profits going with just the free information when they first got started. And what's even sweeter about this particular WSO is, if you follow the steps in the original WSO, you will have customers loyal for life, customers that you can go back to again and again as you learn how to provide other things for them, internet marketing or social media or reputation management things for them, or even directory listing or Google Plus or Facebook services for them. Because after providing them with the first service they will TRUST YOU enough to take seriously just about anything you bring them because what you brought in the beginning was such a roaring success for them.

        Still concerned about spending time sifting through all the crap on Warrior Forum? Then don't bother.

        No, seriously.

        LET GOOGLE DO IT FOR YOU. Set up a Google Alert with the keywords you want to be notified of, and Google will notify you when something worthy of your attention pops up on Warrior Forum. You could use WarriorPlus to do the same thing, but then you'd miss out on offers on your subject matter that would show up on JVZoo.

        I've got a Google Alert set up right now for a different subject matter that is near and dear to my heart. Just about every night Google sends me an email alert with all the links from all over the web that are tied to the specific keyword(s) I put in the alert to notify me about.

        What's stopping you from doing the same with Warrior Forum?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          David,
          The barrier of entry needs to be raised in order to raise the quality. With such a low barrier of entry, you will get lots of fly by night vendors and people who truly have no business advising others on how to make money online.
          This works in some markets, mostly offline. With this market, raising the bar just ends up with the scammers charging more and playing more games, while we'd price (or otherwise block) the people with fewer resources right out of the game. That includes the talented designers and writers and programmers who create great products.
          My experience is that the wso section has an abundance of people selling "how to make money" products in the wso section that have never made a penny doing what they teach.
          That may be close to the truth. And, as you say, we often have no way of knowing who falls into that category and who doesn't.

          Another issue that leads to the discontent you mention is the constant harping about how awful things are in that section, by people who usually either haven't bought anything there or who have the kind of absurd expectations you described. It's become fashionable to bash the WSO section, and most of the noise comes from a consistent group. They stir up ++++, and watch as others echo their nonsense.

          Yes, there are some offers that are found to be just outright frauds. The real problem with these is when people gripe and complain in the threads and never report the issues. Too many people seem to think that moderators read each and every post made on this forum. Where they get such a notion is beyond me, but they seem to have gotten it somewhere.

          If you see a problem, folks, report it. Use that little red triangle and let us know what's going on. Otherwise, we probably won't know about it. Just don't expect instant action. There isn't always someone sitting on the mod queue looking at reports. We all have our own businesses to run. Not to mention lives, and the occasional need for sleep.


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        • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
          Originally Posted by ahlexis View Post

          No one has to spend hours sifting through stuff here @ Warrior Forum. That's what the search feature of the board is for. If you don't like it, there's always Google. Try entering "site:warriorforum.com ____________ " and insert your business model/search term(s) in the blank.

          . . .

          Still concerned about spending time sifting through all the crap on Warrior Forum? Then don't bother.

          No, seriously.

          LET GOOGLE DO IT FOR YOU. Set up a Google Alert with the keywords you want to be notified of, and Google will notify you when something worthy of your attention pops up on Warrior Forum. You could use WarriorPlus to do the same thing, but then you'd miss out on offers on your subject matter that would show up on JVZoo.

          I've got a Google Alert set up right now for a different subject matter that is near and dear to my heart. Just about every night Google sends me an email alert with all the links from all over the web that are tied to the specific keyword(s) I put in the alert to notify me about.

          What's stopping you from doing the same with Warrior Forum?
          Amazing! A constructive idea on this thread! And a good one, at that.

          Of course, if you haven't honed your keywords perfectly, you'll still miss out on things once in a while. Even so, it definitely beats spending hours looking through WSOs.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Danielle,
            Too many 'psycho ex-husbands' in the world. I wouldn't presume to stop a single mom from making a living behind a pen name if she had to do that to keep herself hidden from said psycho ex-husband.
            We don't stop people from selling "anonymously." This is one of the reasons for that. And it is, sadly, a lot more common than many people would expect.

            If you're anonymous, though, you're going to be looked at more cautiously when problems arise. And if you're anonymous and run around bashing people, you are FAR more likely to just be banned without a second thought.
            It is possible that I was 'perceiving' 'some' to be coming across in a way differently than you or other perceived them.
            Always possible. Unavoidable, actually.


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            • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
              I know Paul. I wasn't talking to you, or even WaFo 'administration' (as in all the moderators and peeps who run the joint.) I was talking to those who don't seem to 'get' those things, (like the psyho ex-husbands) before they start casting aspersions and setting an example of such 'short sighted' and narrow minded thinking. I think it especially bothers me when I see people who are 'looked up to' setting such a poor example of small mindedness. Again, NOT YOU. But that's as close as I'm getting to 'specifics.'

              By the way, tonight we're going to a 'spooky train ride in the woods' and possibly even a drive in to see Hotel Transylvania.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        It's the simplest solution, yes. It's just not a very good one.

        Suppose there are some savvy entrepreneurs on WF who know how to spot the bad WSOs but are willing to buy a good one every so often.

        If they have to spend hours sifting through the crap simply to FIND the good ones, it's more likely that they won't play, and then both sides lose. At the end of the day, quality control has its benefits.
        Nannies unite! We needs us some protecting!
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

    The WF staff may or may not be able to do better quality control in the WSO forum, although I hope they can and are willing to.
    Everybody wants quality, but is it the Warrior Forum's job to review products advertising on their platform? I would say it is no more their job to test out every formula, method, and plugin being advertised as it is People Magazine's job to test every diet program advertised in their rag. The WF leaves the reviews up to the members.
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    • Profile picture of the author twilightofidols
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Everybody wants quality, but is it the Warrior Forum's job to review products advertising on their platform? I would say it is no more their job to test out every formula, method, and plugin being advertised as it is People Magazine's job to test every diet program advertised in their rag. The WF leaves the reviews up to the members.
      Yes absolutely. It is their job to review products advertised on their platform. As a matter of fact it should be imperative that a number of (not just 1) WarriorForum mod's be given a review copy and check each and every WSO for quality control before it goes to market.

      When you sell your product as a "WSO" i.e. Warrior Special Offer you are putting the name and reputation of this forum on your product. If a low quality product dubbed an WSO is released it reflects poorly upon the Warriorforum AND the seller.

      You guys can defend this stuff to high heaven, and I'm sure some are removed for this reason but a lot slips through the cracks. It's a running gag in other regions of the internet about the quality of these kind of things. If it doesn't bother WF then so be it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Yes absolutely. It is their job to review products advertised on their platform. As a matter of fact it should be imperative that a number of (not just 1) WarriorForum mod's be given a review copy and check each and every WSO for quality control before it goes to market.
        [splorf!]

        Sure. Because, of course, we all have extensive knowledge of every facet of online business, are certified experts in same, and have unlimited time to devote to pre-chewing your mental food for you, so you don't have to use your own judgement.

        All 6 of us.

        And we should totally give up our own businesses to protect you from the effort of making decisions that are appropriate for your own specific circumstances, which we have no way of knowing. Cuz, like, we don't have expenses or stuff...

        Here's an exercise in reality for you. Go through the WSO section and list the contents of the past 24 hours worth of products that have been listed. Make a chart showing the number of hours of video and the number of pages of PDFs, and cross reference the topics for each. Then calculate the amount of time that would be involved in what you're expecting for a bunch of people who make their money somewhere else.

        Then figure out what those 'experts' would charge for the time involved, and how much you'd have to pay to post a WSO.

        Do the damned math.

        Until you have looked at what is possible, don't try to suggest what is "imperative."


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        • Profile picture of the author admin
          Administrator
          Although that was a great response Paul, you probably should have just said wooo...wooo...wooo...over and over. You'd accomplish about the same damn thing.

          I'm starting to realize there are a massive amount of people without the mental capacity to understand what we are saying.


          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          [splorf!]

          Sure. Because, of course, we all have extensive knowledge of every facet of online business, are certified experts in same, and have unlimited time to devote to pre-chewing your mental food for you, so you don't have to use your own judgement.

          All 6 of us.

          And we should totally give up our own businesses to protect you from the effort of making decisions that are appropriate for your own specific circumstances, which we have no way of knowing. Cuz, like, we don't have expenses or stuff...

          Here's an exercise in reality for you. Go through the WSO section and list the contents of the past 24 hours worth of products that have been listed. Make a chart showing the number of hours of video and the number of pages of PDFs, and cross reference the topics for each. Then calculate the amount of time that would be involved in what you're expecting for a bunch of people who make their money somewhere else.

          Then figure out what those 'experts' would charge for the time involved, and how much you'd have to pay to post a WSO.

          Do the damned math.

          Until you have looked at what is possible, don't try to suggest what is "imperative."


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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Joseph
      Very valid point Brian, well said.

      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Everybody wants quality, but is it the Warrior Forum's job to review products advertising on their platform? I would say it is no more their job to test out every formula, method, and plugin being advertised as it is People Magazine's job to test every diet program advertised in their rag. The WF leaves the reviews up to the members.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I think the key thing many miss is that you shouldn't be buying wso's or any products for that matter unless you have identified a specific need and the product in question appears to solve it.

    I have bought a few wso's. When I have a need for something i go looking for a solution and find a few products that seem to fit the bill. Then i just compare those offers and pick a couple.

    Sure i get some duds, but i get a lot fewer disappointing products than most.

    Many here know me to be about as vocal critic on wso quality as anyone in these parts. I don't like the race to the bottom format of this marketplace at all. But it aint my marketplace. I think it makes it easy for people to be taken advantage of by other people. I think it makes it easy to skirt what should be "best practices" of the IM industry. But thats just my opinion.

    That being said, many people are disappointed with the results of products because of their own expectations going in. Some of that is the fault of the sale page copy and some of it is the fault of you the buyer who is looking for instant solutions to problems that cant be solved that way.

    If you are looking to make $2,378 dollars next week and you have never done IM, then you are going to be disappointed with just about every product you buy. No product is going to be able to take any meaningful number of people from 0 to $xxx or $xxxx in 30 days. Wake up.

    who is the dummy, the guy selling or the guy buying. There is an old french proverb that says "there are more fools among buyers than among sellers". See where I am going with this. Stop buying dreams.
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  • Profile picture of the author admin
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    When Google, all the tv stations in the world and all the magazines in the world start to test and prove all the products in the ads they accept, then we will figure out a way to do the impossible too.

    I find it hard to believe that there are so many people who can't see the insanity in this type of request..

    The only solution? - Accept absolutely NO advertising whatsoever.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Keith
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      When Google, all the tv stations in the world and all the magazines in the world start to test and prove all the products in the ads they accept, then we will figure out a way to do the impossible too.

      I find it hard to believe that there are so many people who can't see the insanity in this type of request..

      The only solution? - Accept absolutely NO advertising whatsoever.
      I fully agree with your statement that its insane to think WF should be responsible for product quality. But at the same time, I my opinion, there are things that could be done to raise the level of transparency and and make the marketplace cleaner.

      The barrier of entry needs to be raised in order to raise the quality. With such a low barrier of entry, you will get lots of fly by night vendors and people who truly have no business advising others on how to make money online.

      You are a smart guy Allen. My guess is that to a man you would admit that some (more than a few) of these folks really shouldn't be selling "how to make money" products to unsuspecting people.

      I will bow out of this conversation now.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

        The barrier of entry needs to be raised in order to raise the quality. With such a low barrier of entry, you will get lots of fly by night vendors and people who truly have no business advising others on how to make money online.
        The fact is the WF has one of the highest, if not the highest barrier to entry in the market.

        First, one needs to become a member of the forum and to stay a member in good standing. Second, they need to pay to become a member of the War Room. Third, they need to pay $40 to post their WSO. Fourth, there are numerous requirements to post a WSO. Fifth, if their product sucks everyone who buys it can publicly post on the thread how bad the product is.

        Now, before saying the WF's barrier to entry to too low, the question is, compared to what?

        Have you looked at other marketing forums and venues where offers can be posted? You will see a lot of knockoffs with no traffic. You will find forums with the worst garbage and blatant rip-offs imaginable.

        You are not going to get instant feedback from buyers at ClickBank and other advertising portals. All you get is a sales page and you're on your own in evaluating the product. Not only are there reviews on the WF, but you can review the reviewers to gauge their credibility.

        Quality is always in the eye of the reviewer. Rehashed junk to one may be new, life-altering quality to another.

        I guarantee you this - this is no other forum in the world that has the number of jaw-dropping, incredible deals, and astounding products as the Warrior Forum.

        Personally, I would rather see innovative ideas for improvement rather than negative posts and threads. I understand its human nature to criticize whatever is "on top" - whether it is sports, Google, or whatever.

        But if we are going to talk about barriers to entry, maybe the barrier should be posting something productive instead of making an easy criticism

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        • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Personally, I would rather see innovative ideas for improvement rather than negative posts and threads. I understand its human nature to criticize whatever is "on top" - whether it is sports, Google, or whatever.

          But if we are going to talk about barriers to entry, maybe the barrier should be posting something productive instead of making an easy criticism

          .
          I freely and openly proclaimed that the OP was a rant (in the headline, no less), so I'm not at all sure what you were expecting here.

          I don't claim to have the ability to save the world, as much as I'd love to do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      When Google, all the tv stations in the world and all the magazines in the world start to test and prove all the products in the ads they accept, then we will figure out a way to do the impossible too.

      I find it hard to believe that there are so many people who can't see the insanity in this type of request..

      The only solution? - Accept absolutely NO advertising whatsoever.
      Quality control is not the all-or-nothing proposition that you're making it out to be, Allen.

      No business on the planet treats it as such, including Google - which I assure you rejects tons of ads every day.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        No business on the planet treats it as such, including Google - which I assure you rejects tons of ads every day.
        And you have an idea of how many posts get rejected or removed or otherwise dealt with here every day... How?


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      • Profile picture of the author admin
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        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        Quality control is not the all-or-nothing proposition that you're making it out to be, Allen.

        No business on the planet treats it as such, including Google - which I assure you rejects tons of ads every day.

        Where did you come by the notion that we don't delete tons of ads every day?

        You are assuming we don't do anything?

        You probably won't believe this, but the mods that control that forum section delete about as many as they approve. I could make a lot more money if I just told them to stop and let it ride.

        Everyone that bashes this forum 'assumes' that we don't do anything when nothing could be further from the truth. But it won't do any good to tell anyone this, it's far juicer to believe what they want to believe.
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        • Profile picture of the author IMSince2003
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          Where did you come by the notion that we don't delete tons of ads every day?

          You are assuming we don't do anything?

          You probably won't believe this, but the mods that control that forum section delete about as many as they approve. I could make a lot more money if I just told them to stop and let it ride.

          Everyone that bashes this forum 'assumes' that we don't do anything when nothing could be further from the truth. But it won't do any good to tell anyone this, it's far juicer to believe what they want to believe.
          What you guys are doing PLUS honest feedback on the WSO froum creates a self-policing marketplace. Let's face it, we all know that someone who thinks that they've been taken advantage of is 200x more vocal than the typical happy customer. I don't think that the critics here understand what kind of volume goes through the forum. Hey, get a clue! Look at the number of users, the number online at any given time AND LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF POSTS HERE!

          Thank you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
          Originally Posted by admin View Post

          Where did you come by the notion that we don't delete tons of ads every day?

          You are assuming we don't do anything?

          You probably won't believe this, but the mods that control that forum section delete about as many as they approve. I could make a lot more money if I just told them to stop and let it ride.

          Everyone that bashes this forum 'assumes' that we don't do anything when nothing could be further from the truth. But it won't do any good to tell anyone this, it's far juicer to believe what they want to believe.
          Did I say that the mods here do nothing, or that they don't delete lots of ads? No.
          Did I imply that the mods here do nothing, or that they don't delete lots of ads? I don't think so.
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers

          If you're going to argue with someone, it is best to stick to arguing about things they actually said.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Seriously, if you can't separate the wheat from the chaff on your own then I don't like your chances of ever 'making it' on the Internet. I guess eBay should go around and inspect every single item before they allow them to be posted on their site? That's how silly what you are saying is.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Seriously, if you can't separate the wheat from the chaff on your own then I don't like your chances of ever 'making it' on the Internet. I guess eBay should go around and inspect every single item before they allow them to be posted on their site? That's how silly what you are saying is.
      Just because I know how to separate the wheat from the chaff doesn't mean that I should be wasting time doing it.

      And eBay has the legal muscle and the deep pockets to drag you through every court in your country if you mess with them. I'm betting WF has neither.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Keith
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        Just because I know how to separate the wheat from the chaff doesn't mean that I should be wasting time doing it.

        And eBay has the legal muscle and the deep pockets to drag you through every court in your country if you mess with them. I'm betting WF has neither.
        Probably the biggest difference in ebay and WF as it relates to the marketplace stuff is that ebay own paypal which is the processor for the vast majority of ebay transactions.

        So unlike Wf, ebay has access to much more data regarding who is truly scamming who and they can build reputation histories on such stuff.

        The barrier to entry to open and verify a paypal account and attach it to an ebay account is significantly higher than it is to just open a WF account. WF accounts have virtually no verification at all (not unlike most forums).

        So its much easier for scammers and tricksters to play games with WF than ebay.

        But truthfully, I am not of the belief that outright scammers are the cause of any meaningful percentage of the overall discontent with the WF wso section. My experience is thatthe wso section has an abundance of people selling "how to make money" products in the wso section that have never made a penny doing what they teach.

        That kind of stuff is much harder to prevent than outright scams and such.

        also, unlike ebay, the wso section is almost if not 100% digital stuff. that leads to a much greater quality difference between products that is hard to discern from just the sales page.

        on ebay, the vast majority of stuff is tangible stuff. So you get a model number on the sales page or something and you can go research the item more. Thats not the case for stuff sold on WF. They are very different animals in many regard.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        Just because I know how to separate the wheat from the chaff doesn't mean that I should be wasting time doing it.

        And eBay has the legal muscle and the deep pockets to drag you through every court in your country if you mess with them. I'm betting WF has neither.
        The connection I was making is that they are both marketplaces. If you don't like them then don't use them. Threads like this achieve nothing.

        There is far too much hand holding expected in society nowadays. Learn to make your own decisions. You're a big boy now and i'm sure you are capable of doing so. Do you also expect your supermarket to give you advice on which margarine to buy?!

        I have bought plenty of WSOs over the years and have not once been scammed. It's quite easy to pick out the rubbish offers. I don't see the problem. Only those who are gullible or easily misled will have issues.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveFinch
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Only those who are gullible or easily misled will have issues.
          And threads such as this one helps tell them that all may not be as it seems in the WSO section
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Steve,
            And threads such as this one helps tell them that all may not be as it seems in the WSO section
            Or anywhere else.

            Gawd, this thread is like listening to the people who go to Walmart and spend $3.49 on a 600-piece tool kit, and then complain because they can't build a house with it.

            [sigh]


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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        When Google, all the tv stations in the world and all the magazines in the world start to test and prove all the products in the ads they accept, then we will figure out a way to do the impossible too.

        I find it hard to believe that there are so many people who can't see the insanity in this type of request..

        The only solution? - Accept absolutely NO advertising whatsoever.
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        (SNIP)And eBay has the legal muscle and the deep pockets to drag you through every court in your country if you mess with them. I'm betting WF has neither.(/SNIP)
        Allen, Please don't feed the trolls.

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        (Warrior Forum Moderator)

        PS. The No Advertising line, Ummm, please forget about that solution to solve the problem.
        One bad apple doesn't spoil the treat.
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  • Profile picture of the author Isaiah Jackson
    I love coming to these types of threads, if you are going to complain or rant about WSOs here is a solution don't buy WSOs too easy right
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Originally Posted by Isaiah Jackson View Post

      I love coming to these types of threads, if you are going to complain or rant about WSOs here is a solution don't buy WSOs too easy right
      Well, no, not exactly 'so easy.' We could talk about the 'perception' of the 'social proof' that is portrayed through the 'perceived' 'transparency' of doing business on a forum... except that, well... for all the 'sanctimarketing' on the web with regards to things like 'paid reviews,' - well, that's the way it worked in the brick and mortar world of business long before the Internet. Publicists paid to have stories planted about businesses, people, and products, to generate buzz... and if you're naive enough to think that 'smart' business like that isn't going to happen online, you're too naive to be in business to begin with. JMHO. It may be said to be 'against the rules' to do such a thing, report it and we'll take care of it, etc, etc etc... but it is how 'smart' business gets done and no amount of lips service to altruism is going to stop 'smart' business from doing smart business.

      We could also talk about David's point of the 'race to the bottom' format. As he said, it's not his marketplace, but how about the people whose marketplace it is? Have you not considered the amount of time and value that some members put into building a community with integrity and transparency, who have built stellar reputations for themselves, without 'affiliates' to promote their WSO's, and now are treated with skepticism and disdain because a whole lot of bad apples poisoned the whole tree?

      And now, the only way to get anyone to your fruit stand is to send out sentries to lure people into the town and lure new people in to eat the same poisoned fruit?

      Or you aren't getting any new blood into the town and the town dies.

      So, no, it's really not 'so easy.'

      Back when a product had to be for sale somewhere other than WSO forum before it would be approved as a WSO, was the best way to have quality control over WSO's. Again, JMHO.
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  • Profile picture of the author O0o0O
    We are the moderators. And we are quality control. As information becomes more abundant, the value of WSOs tends to go down. When the value is low, people tend to not want to pay as much for it.

    And in order to drive the value up that's where the reviews come in. The more honest reviews from respected, long time members of the community there are, the higher the value becomes in the eyes of the buyer.
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Originally Posted by O0o0O View Post

      We are the moderators. And we are quality control. As information becomes more abundant, the value of WSOs tends to go down. When the value is low, people tend to not want to pay as much for it.

      And in order to drive the value up that's where the reviews come in. The more honest reviews from respected, long time members of the community there are, the higher the value becomes in the eyes of the buyer.
      Blind leading the blind.

      What could possibly go wrong?
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  • Profile picture of the author zspuckl
    It's really tough on the newbies like myself that have SOS (shiny object syndrome) I want to spend more money that I will make on stupid WSOs. Granted some of my success has come from one or two, but for the most part, they are a rehash of free info 60-80% of the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Some WSOs will be better than others. I've bought a WSO from a respected marketer online, but was disappointed in the product. Nevertheless, it didn't stop me from looking for other WSOs to purchase. You just have to use some logic when deciding on what kind of WSO you're looking to buy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Allen,

      A lot of the screamers don't care what's true. Anything short of perfection is seen by them as a sign of evil. And if there weren't anything to scream about, they'd scream that the rules were too tough, and we were stomping on "the little guy."

      It would be interesting to see how many of them would have the stamina to moderate for even a month and stay anything close to rational or... well... moderate.


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      • Profile picture of the author admin
        Administrator
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Allen,

        A lot of the screamers don't care what's true. Anything short of perfection is seen by them as a sign of evil. And if there weren't anything to scream about, they'd scream that the rules were too tough, and we were stomping on "the little guy."

        It would be interesting to see how many of them would have the stamina to moderate for even a month and stay anything close to rational or... well... moderate.


        Paul

        Yea, I'd like to see what's going to be said if I stop all replies in WSO threads as some have suggested. I can see the headlines now about coverups and how the Warrior Forum has stopped all replies so the little guy can't make his voice heard...blah blah blah..
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        It would be interesting to see how many of them would have the stamina to moderate for even a month and stay anything close to rational or... well... moderate.
        Paul

        Most wouldn't last more than about 5 minutes Paul. As someone who at one time had a look behind the curtain I have nothing but respect for all mods here and I am constantly amazed that Allen doesn't just shut the entire forum down and be done with the headache he has to deal with on a daily basis.
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  • Profile picture of the author jaiganeshv
    There are plenty of strong, i should say negative, comments warning about the WSO to the potential buyers, if that particular WSO doesn't stand up to its claim..

    1. The WF is very genuine that it does not remove it so as to help buyers from being trapped and also to make the marketplace unbiased and fair.

    2. Warriors are also advised to clearly indicate if they were given a review copy

    3. Paul Myers (i think) has clearly notified WSO creators on WF rules on PLR products, abuse of extended license software.

    What more you can expect?
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    by "raising the barrier of entry" I don't necessarily or even primarily mean money.

    Any requirement or "check" that makes it just a little harder to become a wso vendor will affect the weaker merchants much more than the true businesses and such that no one wants to see go away from the wso section.

    Thats the case with most things in life. We lock our doors to our cars and houses even though there are huge windows anyone can easily through a rock through.

    The point of locking the door (ie...taking steps to raise the barrier of entry) is not to make your house truly safe and impenetrable. Its simple to make you less of a target of opportunity.

    The wso section is largely a target of opportunity for the bottom of the barrel merchants. The door is pretty open and the barrier of entry is just so low that it attracts lots of weak merchants selling weak products. Products that can't even pass the CB approval process are sold via the wso board. And lets be honest the CB threshold is not that tough.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
    The quality control should NOT be done by WF admins, but by customers and their purchasing common sense.

    Example:

    Example #1: A few weeks back, I found a WSO of a guy claiming that he could teach you how to create a 6-figure business in a weekend. So I asked him for proof that he's actually running a 6-figure business himself. Guess what? he declined to show any proof. And guess what else? people did not mind that and they still continued buying his "training", even though he had no proof whatsoever that he could deliver his claim.

    Example #2: There's right now a WSO from a guy who sells training on "How to increase your email open rates". And as a proof, he shows screenshots from his Aweber account showing how he's scoring a 10% open rate with his emails... A 10% open rate is utter rubbish, yet many people are buying his "training" on email marketing.

    See my point? the problem is not the lack of control by WF Admins. The problem is the lack of any common sense whatsoever by the typical WSO buyer.
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    • Profile picture of the author twilightofidols
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      The quality control should NOT be done by WF admins, but by customers and their purchasing common sense.
      The individuals responsible for running and policing this forum have an obligation to their patrons to ensure that anything that has the WarriorForum brand on it.. i.e. WSO reflects positively on the community otherwise it should not be given that title.

      It's not about common sense, it's about preserving the integrity of the brand. It poisons the well so to speak. If WF doesn't agree with me, that's ok but in another universe I'd do things differently.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      In quickly skimming through the OP's posting history, what stands out to me is that he's NEVER posted a negative review on any WSO, ever.
      So what? Does everyone have to purchase a scam to know that it's a scam?

      That leaves me thoroughly confused - if he's unwilling to man up and leave an honest, factual review of the WSO's he purchased, why would he think the WF should assume more responsibility than himself?
      Gee. How about because the owners make money from the WF and I don't?

      (For the record, the few WSOs I have purchased were lackluster, but not unethical in any apparent way. Again, so what?)
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        (For the record, the few WSOs I have purchased were lackluster, but not unethical in any apparent way. Again, so what?)
        So what? Because after being a member here for all of three months, you started a thread full of gross generalizations about WSOs. Like the "fact" that 90% of them are crap. Which means you would have had to purchase pretty close to all of them to make that kind of generalization.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Dave,
        Gee. How about because the owners make money from the WF and I don't?
        Owner. Singular.

        Would you expect the owner of a mall to inspect every product that's sold in every store? Or to clamp down on "Everything's a Dollar" for selling tools that weren't up to the quality standard of Craftsman, or earphones that didn't measure up to the ones sold for $150 at Best Buy?

        If someone wants to buy cheap tools, it's their choice.
        Does everyone have to purchase a scam to know that it's a scam?
        If you publicly accuse someone of running a scam, you'd better have more proof than "It doesn't make sense to me."

        We will ban someone in a heartbeat if we become convinced they're scamming the members. We'll nuke a person just as quickly for making false accusations publicly.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Gerald Arno
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          We will ban someone in a heartbeat if we become convinced they're scamming the members. We'll nuke a person just as quickly for making false accusations publicly.
          Yes, Christian Chan is probably the best example. Some people have nothing better to do than to publicly offend other members. I don´t know why they do it but those people seem to have serious self-esteem and mental issues which force them to attack product creators.

          He was continually claiming that a lot of WSOs creator use fake screenshots or testimonials to help leverage their credibility. I don´t know how he got away with that for so long..

          I think it´s good that buyers can post their honest review on a product. What is not ok though is when someone makes unconsidered assumptions because of uncontrolled feelings like hate.

          Offering review copies for a testimonial in return is totally fine. How else will you have testimonials on your sales page before you sold a few copies of your product? The testimonials are still revealing your product´s values and therefore we can´t really say that the testimonials are fake.
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        • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Dave,Owner. Singular.

          Would you expect the owner of a mall to inspect every product that's sold in every store? Or to clamp down on "Everything's a Dollar" for selling tools that weren't up to the quality standard of Craftsman, or earphones that didn't measure up to the ones sold for $150 at Best Buy?

          If someone wants to buy cheap tools, it's their choice.If you publicly accuse someone of running a scam, you'd better have more proof than "It doesn't make sense to me."

          We will ban someone in a heartbeat if we become convinced they're scamming the members. We'll nuke a person just as quickly for making false accusations publicly.


          Paul
          Paul,
          I'm pretty sure you know that I haven't made any public accusations against anyone, false or otherwise.

          If you guys are satisfied with the way you weed out worthless and/or deceptive WSOs, that's certainly your decision (meaning the owner and the mods). What it doesn't do is stop the members from remarking that the status quo is less than perfect. Nor should it: someone did come up with a productive suggestion as a result of this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
        Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

        So what? Does everyone have to purchase a scam to know that it's a scam?

        Gee. How about because the owners make money from the WF and I don't?

        (For the record, the few WSOs I have purchased were lackluster, but not unethical in any apparent way. Again, so what?)
        You do not deserve my bong... GIVE IT BACK...

        1.) What exactly is your definition of a 'scam'?
        2.) How the Hell can you know if a 'product' is a 'scam' if you didn't buy/use it?
        3.) Yes, agree with you that the people making the money from the 'product' should be doing quality control. But Warrior Forum isn't making money from the 'product,' they are making money by ADVERTISING the product for the person making money selling the product...
        4.) If the WSO's you purchased weren't unethical what exactly is this little bitchfest about?

        ( I told you I lost my diplomacy hat today)

        <takes the hookah back too.>
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  • Profile picture of the author JackTheFrost
    If anyone trys to give a honest review, they're ridiculed by the warrior community... so you really can't win.
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    • Profile picture of the author admin
      Administrator
      Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

      If anyone trys to give a honest review, they're ridiculed by the warrior community... so you really can't win.
      I should ban you for that statement. Give the bottomfeeders something to rant about on their blogs.

      Ridiculed by the Warrior community for posting an honest review? Really?

      Would you be so kind as to point these out for me?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      If anyone trys to give a honest review, they're ridiculed by the warrior community... so you really can't win.
      Tell that to the sellers who scream at me nearly every day because I tell them I won't delete negative reviews from actual buyers.

      ClueTime, Jack: Go through just the first two pages of the WSO section, and look at the longer threads. See how many negative reviews are still posted. Then, when you've done the damned math, come back and spout some more.

      Of course, someone from the US who can't even spell "tries" correctly can't be expected to distinguish between positive, negative, and "honest." Or why it's illegal to use copyrighted images as an avatar on a forum.

      [insert std:catsname]


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Allen,
        Although that was a great response Paul, you probably should have just said wooo...wooo...wooo...over and over. You'd accomplish about the same damn thing.
        You forget that most of my replies on topics like this are not directed to the people whose quotes are included. They're directed at the folks who are still thinking, and who haven't decided yet to be premeditatedly stupid.

        For every idiot, there are 20 smart, thoughtful people, who are considering the points and forming intelligent opinions based on their own experiences. They may not always agree with us, but they also won't spout nonsense with no basis in reality.

        I'll take that. Every time.


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        • Profile picture of the author admin
          Administrator
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Allen,You forget that most of my replies on topics like this are not directed to the people whose quotes are included. They're directed at the folks who are still thinking, and who haven't decided yet to be premeditatedly stupid.

          For every idiot, there are 20 smart, thoughtful people, who are considering the points and forming intelligent opinions based on their own experiences. They may not always agree with us, but they also won't spout nonsense with no basis in reality.

          I'll take that. Every time.


          Paul

          Don't come at me with that logical and rational stuff. I'm in a bad mood.

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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Allen,
            Don't come at me with that logical and rational stuff. I'm in a bad mood
            Me too. Otherwise, I'd be making jokes, instead of replying to them.


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      • Profile picture of the author JackTheFrost
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Tell that to the sellers who scream at me nearly every day because I tell them I won't delete negative reviews from actual buyers.

        ClueTime, Jack: Go through just the first two pages of the WSO section, and look at the longer threads. See how many negative reviews are still posted. Then, when you've done the damned math, come back and spout some more.

        Of course, someone from the US who can't even spell "tries" correctly can't be expected to distinguish between positive, negative, and "honest." Or why it's illegal to use copyrighted images as an avatar on a forum.

        [insert std:catsname]


        Paul
        Hold on What? I never said anything about negative post get deleted, although I'm sure you probably leave the negative to make the reviews seem more "real". But that's not the point, I'm talking about if you say "I didn't like this product blah blah blah" then everyone will talk about how you didn't implement it, Or ignore you all together and look at you as an outcast.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Hold on What? I never said anything about negative post get deleted, although I'm sure you probably leave the negative to make the reviews seem more "real". But that's not the point, I'm talking about if you say "I didn't like this product blah blah blah" then everyone will talk about how you didn't implement it, Or ignore you all together and look at you as an outcast.
          Ah. So, the forum is responsible for how the members may (or probably may not) respond to your comments?

          That's just ridiculous.

          If you don't have the stones to express your honest opinions without worrying about how a bunch of strangers respond, you have bigger problems than this forum will ever create for you. Seriously.

          It's only a forum!

          What's truly sad is that you worry and whine about this while hiding behind a fake name and a picture of Willy-freaking-Wonka.

          Grow a pair. Please.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author JackTheFrost
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Ah. So, the forum is responsible for how the members may (or probably may not) respond to your comments?

            That's just ridiculous.

            If you don't have the stones to express your honest opinions without worrying about how a bunch of strangers respond, you have bigger problems than this forum will ever create for you. Seriously.

            It's only a forum!

            What's truly sad is that you worry and whine about this while hiding behind a fake name and a picture of Willy-freaking-Wonka.

            Grow a pair. Please.


            Paul
            Like you said its a forum! So why the hell do you care that I can't spell? why would I post any of my real info on here? I'm not hiding , and what did I say that offended you so bad geez, I stated my opinion and for some reason you two responded like you were the OP.

            I'll say whatever I want "Paul Myers" IF that's your real name. LOL
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

              why would I post any of my real info on here?
              Because if you don't, you come across as an anonymous troll.
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              • Profile picture of the author JackTheFrost
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                Because if you don't, you come across as an anonymous troll.
                Ok Well call me "anonymous troll" then....
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                • Profile picture of the author JackTheFrost
                  Ok just for you guys I'll put up my pic... my last name is Jackson , so the name will stay.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                    Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

                    Ok just for you guys I'll put up my pic... my last name is Jackson , so the name will stay.
                    Willy Jackson? :confused:
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            • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
              Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

              Like you said its a forum! So why the hell do you care that I can't spell? why would I post any of my real info on here? I'm not hiding , and what did I say that offended you so bad geez, I stated my opinion and for some reason you two responded like you were the OP.

              I'll say whatever I want "Paul Myers" IF that's your real name. LOL

              Giving flack to the forum owner and a mod, gotta say you got more balls than brains it seems.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Keith
                Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

                Giving flack to the forum owner and a mod, gotta say you got more balls than brains it seems.
                Lol. This forum owner and the primary mod in this discussion are more than open to constructive criticism. I have had more than one spirited conversation with Paul specifically on a few topics. He is more than capable of taking and giving a little "flack" and much worse. lol He is a damn good mod and damn good for this community.

                Just to be very clear, I am certainly not of the opinion that WF needs to protect me by only allowing great products to be sold. That seems to be the opinion of several in the thread. That is not practical nor a good idea for the consumers. that would lead directly to people using their brains less. I am not for that one bit.

                My arguments are more that the forum probably could do some things without looking at products specifically that would raise the bar a bit.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
                  Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

                  Anyway, that's my rant. The WF staff may or may not be able to do better quality control in the WSO forum, although I hope they can and are willing to. But even if not, you can now use what you learned above to spot the WSO snake oil.
                  Members are moderators. How many hours have you put in this week on quality control?
                  Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

                  Just because I know how to separate the wheat from the chaff doesn't mean that I should be wasting time doing it.
                  Being a contributing member of the community is a waste of your time?

                  Originally Posted by twilightofidols View Post

                  Yes absolutely. It is their job to review products advertised on their platform. As a matter of fact it should be imperative that a number of (not just 1) WarriorForum mod's be given a review copy and check each and every WSO for quality control before it goes to market.
                  You've seen the contracts they signed for the job?

                  Oh, did I mention members are moderators too? How much time did you spend reviewing products for the forums sake this week?

                  Originally Posted by twilightofidols View Post

                  The individuals responsible for running and policing this forum have an obligation to their patrons to ensure that anything that has the WarriorForum brand on it..
                  Hmm, I don't recall putting the Warrior Forum Brand Name on any of my products in the past. I did however use the WSO section to advertise - but never claimed it was this forum that was responsible for the integrity that went behind the creation of the product.


                  Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

                  Hold on What? I never said anything about negative post get deleted, although I'm sure you probably leave the negative to make the reviews seem more "real". But that's not the point, I'm talking about if you say "I didn't like this product blah blah blah" then everyone will talk about how you didn't implement it, Or ignore you all together and look at you as an outcast.
                  I would have to dig hard, but I'm confident I've given a couple of BAD reviews in the past. No where did anyone tell me I didn't implement or treat me like an outcast. Be careful with words like everyone. That is a LOT of people. lol

                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  IMO, if WSOs cost $40 to post, then WSO rants should cost $80 to post.
                  Some might go broke before they even make their fortune.

                  Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

                  I'm not hiding ,

                  I'll say whatever I want "Paul Myers" IF that's your real name. LOL
                  You are hiding, and I'd be hiding too if I questioned Paul like that. LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
          Originally Posted by JackTheFrost View Post

          I'm talking about if you say "I didn't like this product blah blah blah" then everyone will talk about how you didn't implement it, Or ignore you all together and look at you as an outcast.

          Not true at all I have given out poor reviews and they are still up. It is part of putting a product out there. Really if you look at it most people just glaze over them because the human mind has already decide to buy and is only looking for more proof to convince itself that it is ok. I wonder what we would find if we looked up the term marketing on good ol' Goolge.
          " Marketing is the process of communicating the value of a product or service to customers."

          Once value has been established in their minds who cares if YOU don't like it. They only want more convincing. Go through your process and listen to your mind next time you go to buy a really nice watch.
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  • Profile picture of the author manicmethods
    Must say I've left negative comments on numerous WSOs (hey, I'm fussy) and haven't been knocked or ridiculed for putting them up.

    I'd say the majority of WF members appreciate honest (and negative if true) reviews.
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  • Profile picture of the author admin
    Administrator
    This thread is like trying to get a cow to go 'moo' by blowing up its ass...
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      This thread is like trying to get a cow to go 'moo' by blowing up its ass...
      I really gotta quit reading posts while I'm drinking something. That made me spew Dr Pepper all over my keyboard. Good thing I have 3 extras laying around... rofl
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    • Profile picture of the author Jacob Pionke
      Originally Posted by admin View Post

      This thread is like trying to get a cow to go 'moo' by blowing up its ass...
      Haha! I totally agree, there was no point in this thread.

      "Moo"
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    IMO, if WSOs cost $40 to post, then WSO rants should cost $80 to post.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gerald Arno
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

    Sturgeon's Law says, "90% of science fiction is crud, but then again, 90% of everything is crud." However, even Mr. Sturgeon would be disappointed by the quality of the WSOs around here.

    Understand, I have no problem with the idea of WSOs in general, and I'm glad that WF provides a forum in which to market them. IMers are a very real and large demographic, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with selling products or services to them. The problem comes in when WSO sellers learn a few tricks of the IM trade and misuse them - which results in products that are priced way above their value and programs that have no reasonable hope of success. It's time to take quality up a notch, and this is why:

    First off, most sellers in this market segment rely on their next promotion for continued income. Of course there are exceptions: the truly outstanding products are sold from a single site for years, and almost all the long-term sales come from word of mouth. But if you have a crappy product, you can still keep the revenue coming in by releasing another crappy product in a month or two, as long as your list is big enough. You don't need a high response rate (just a quick response), and it doesn't cost any more to promote to a large list than to a small one. Good products or bad, the online game is won by the size of your list. The sellers with crappy products generally sell to the same group of customers again, and again, and again.

    Another problem comes from misusing price points. A "coincidentally" large number of WSOs have one-time prices in the neighborhood of $200 and/or monthly prices of around $20. Obviously some of these are genuinely worth the price. But in other cases, the sellers are simply using market research data (gathered over many years) indicating that these are prices that the customers will readily accept.

    The third problem is specific to various programs that have payouts: these can be legally delayed almost indefinitely if the program owners are less than ethical. For example, they can make the minimum check too large, demand extra paperwork, and slow down replies to associate requests by weeks (until many of them just give up). In the worst cases, some of these programs managed to go out of business before paying any commissions at all. When I see a pitch for something like "Give me $20 a month and I'll make you $10,000 a month in commissions," it amazes me that so many clients don't bother to wonder how you can take more money out of a program than there is money coming into it.

    Anyway, that's my rant. The WF staff may or may not be able to do better quality control in the WSO forum, although I hope they can and are willing to. But even if not, you can now use what you learned above to spot the WSO snake oil.
    I´m strictly against creating products that scream the language of no work means more money. A newbie doesn´t have the ability to know what´s best for him yet. A newbie believes that everything that seems to make money fast is the best solution for right now. Well, we know too go that that´s not true.

    Claiming that your product will make any person $10,000 in a month is pure arrogance. It develops the wrong mindset in us, and unfortunately so many people by into the mindset that buying a product will generate them the results, whether they take action or not.

    You as a product creator have absolutely no power over how well your buyers will apply the information you teach. So claiming that anyone will achieve a certain income level, regardless of their experience or work ethic, is the same as claiming that every person will die at age 65. It´s simple not true.

    Just because something works well for you, doesn´t mean it will work equally well for every person.

    The most deadly mindset you can develop is actually holding you back from working hard and developing skills. Some people have solid income proof for what they do and don´t make exaggerated claims.

    You, and you alone choose which marketing language you use and the language you choose determines the customers you attract. The choice is yours.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    C'mon people. No one has trolled this thread in over 20 minutes. I'm trying to avoid work here. How can I do that if you all fail to entertain me?

    I want a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
    Of for God's sake... this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever read.

    First of all, there are some very legitimate reasons for using 'pen names' online, even in an Internet Marketing or business forum. In the Information Age of identity theft and cyberstalking, if you think someone should be willing to put their family at risk just because you're sitting up on some sanctimonious high horse pretending it doesn't happen and looking at the world through rose tinted glasses, you are beyond 'naive.'

    Second of all, yes, there are oft times when people are ridiculed and bullied for expressing a negative opinion about something. Sometimes it's 'almost' justified because the negative review is one formed by someone uneducated on the subject (like idiots who bitch about OTO's and upsells, or who 'demand' proof that is someone IS running a six figure business to prove they know HOW to do it...the scientific processes have existed for at least 200 years, and have worked for thousands of businesses in thousands of industries... they're called 'fundamentals'), but sometimes the person making the claim is 'dead on ba**s accurate with their comment, and there is no justification to attack them, yet it does happen. Those are called 'cronies' and again, if you don't think they exist, you are 'beyond naive.'

    Nope, it's not Warrior Forum's job to police the schoolyard playground. There are without a doubt some 'crony' networks here, and everywhere else too. You can't look to WaFo, or the 'community' to protect you from it though, and I don't think that's what JackTheFrost meant at all... I think he just made the observation that it does happen, not that he expected WaFo to do anything about it. Of course, considering the OP in this thread he might be suggesting, or someone might be inferring, that he 'meant' to say that 'cleaning up the WSO forum would put an end to that." But it won't.

    There will always be 'cronies,' or where I come from in the South, what we call "The Good Ole' Boy Network," because the nature of business is to form 'strategic alliances' with other businesses to capitalize on each other's strengths and offset each other other's weaknesses.

    In a store, you buy a product there, you return it there, not to the manufacturer or supplier.

    In a publication, where you buy directly from a manufacturer or a supplier, you return the product to the manufacturer or supplier. NOT the 'publication.'

    Allen, YES PLEASE, to getting rid of comments in the WSO forum.

    While you're at it, please bring back the old rule that the product had to be proven to be selling somewhere else to prove that it's a Warrior SPECIAL Offer...

    And get rid of affiliate program integrations with WSO's...

    That will get rid of the amateur vendors creating crappy loss leaders and crappy sales funnels to 'get the [same] list' of the crappy loss leader buyers that the amateur affiliates have so they can all hammer the Hell out of their list with every crappy loss leader product of the day... and that will get rid of the amateur loss leader bright shiny object buyers who bitch about sales processes...
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Danielle,
      First of all, there are some very legitimate reasons for using 'pen names' online, even in an Internet Marketing or business forum.
      Yep. And I have many times stated that I have no problem with people using anonymous usernames if they're not selling or bashing. My comment about Mr/Ms Jackson's username was in reference to the concern about what others say in response. Why would an anonymous person be worried about such things?
      Those are called 'cronies' and again, if you don't think they exist, you are 'beyond naive.'
      Blame it on the lack of oxygen. The air is pretty thin up here on my high horse.

      I would be interested in knowing which comment of mine, if any, you might think denies that this happens. I don't think anyone in this thread has denied it, actually.

      If you're going to argue with someone, it is best to stick to arguing about things they actually said.

      Johnny,
      Giving flack to the forum owner and a mod, gotta say you got more balls than brains it seems.
      You're kidding, right?

      I won't presume to speak for Allen on the subject, but you have to be a lot nastier than that for me to do anything about a response directed at me. Especially after I've been as sarcastic with the person as I was with JackTheFrost.

      I think it was well-deserved in this case, but that doesn't mean he's suddenly not allowed to speak his mind. He didn't step over any of the lines in the process.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Johnny,You're kidding, right?

        I won't presume to speak for Allen on the subject, but you have to be a lot nastier than that for me to do anything about a response directed at me. Especially after I've been as sarcastic with the person as I was with JackTheFrost.

        I think it was well-deserved in this case, but that doesn't mean he's suddenly not allowed to speak his mind. He didn't step over any of the lines in the process.

        Paul
        Paul, I know you and Allen give people plenty of room to state their mind, and rightly so. However, you give much more room than I would and sometimes I just have to speak up and call a spade a spade.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackTheFrost
    Jill you have way too much time on your hands. Have a seat.
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Hey Paul... again, sorry for delayed reply... took kiddos to a Halloween festival. Actually NONE of my comments were directed at you... none at all. Though I am still going to disagree with you on the pen names to the point of 'selling.'

      Too many 'psycho ex-husbands' in the world. I wouldn't presume to stop a single mom from making a living behind a pen name if she had to do that to keep herself hidden from said psycho ex-husband.

      JMO... as for the rest, nope, not even remotely directed at you. And I know that you never denied the 'crony' factor.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Danielle,
        Hey Paul... again, sorry for delayed reply... took kiddos to a Halloween festival.
        Wait. You have... a LIFE?

        No fair!
        Actually NONE of my comments were directed at you... none at all.
        Okay. I obviously misparsed something. I am far more confused now, though, as I still don't see where anyone in this thread claimed the backlash from negative comments never happens. Or said there's a problem with anonymous accounts by themselves.

        What am I missing?


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
          I only have a life on weekends between October 1 and January 2nd on any given year.



          We may be experiencing a 'breakdown in communications,' but I can't specifically point anything out with coming a bit too close to violating rule number one of the forum... (at least too close for my comfort level... I lost my diplomacy hat at the festival today)

          One of my favorite sayings is 'there is no reality, there is only perception.'

          It is possible that I was 'perceiving' 'some' to be coming across in a way differently than you or other perceived them. My perception could be clouded by past experiences with 'some,' or just by what I interpret as their 'tone.' Probably both.

          Either way, I was just presenting another point of view. On the subjects themselves and they way people feel about the subjects.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    I think too many people forget that the WSO section is just a marketplace. Buyer beware.

    The transaction is between buyer and seller. WF only provides a platform for advertising and communication. To expect them to protect you from yourself is absurd.

    Having said that - I think if all income claims were banned (I make this by doing this, or I can teach you to make this, etc) would go a long way to getting rid of the scammers.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    I LOVE shitty WSOs. They make the good ones look even better.

    As for asking admin to reinstate the requirement a WSO must be selling elsewhere, that stops nothing. It would take me all of 2 minutes to repost my WSO on an alternative domain charging $1 more than the WSO price. Getting rid of affiliate programs is also impossible since a seller is entitled to use any payment processor they want. Besides, the affiliate programs are hugely responsible for the huge growth of this forum over the last few years. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      I LOVE shitty WSOs. They make the good ones look even better.

      As for asking admin to reinstate the requirement a WSO must be selling elsewhere, that stops nothing. It would take me all of 2 minutes to repost my WSO on an alternative domain charging $1 more than the WSO price. Getting rid of affiliate programs is also impossible since a seller is entitled to use any payment processor they want. Besides, the affiliate programs are hugely responsible for the huge growth of this forum over the last few years. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
      $1.00 isn't 'substantially lower.' As per the rules. So that ploy wouldn't work.

      Affiliate programs are NOT 'payment processors.' They're two different things and at one time, before 2010, you could only use PayPal to buy WSO's.

      And the 'huge growth' = more amateurs, rookies and cowboys. They don't 'feed' you, they create a stranglehold on you.

      You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact it is back when those WERE the rules, there weren't nearly as many stupid buyers bitching about stupid things that aren't wrong, but are done wrongly buy stupid sellers.

      Let me just repeat this so it's clear: Those WERE the rules at one time, and they DID work.

      Personally, I don't have a dog in this show. I got fed up with the 'Affiliate Cartel' insisting that every product be treated as a loss leader, priced at $10 or under and demanding 100% commission to promote it, which is now the only way to even get a wso 'seen.

      If I ever post a WSO again, it will only be with a product that has been sold on the open market already, has proven to be selling at a higher price point thus going back to the original 'special' part of the offer for warriors only.

      One more thing... the whole world is a 'marketplace.' So by some people's 'logic,' you should use your own 'judgment' when choosing a doctor or a lawyer, they shouldn't need to be licensed or regulated.

      The fact is when 'businesses' start doing stupid things that take advantage of and/or cause harm to the general public, just because they aren't regulated and they can, is when they suddenly become regulated so they can't.
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      • Profile picture of the author KriiV
        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        $1.00 isn't 'substantially lower.' As per the rules. So that ploy wouldn't work.
        Make it $20 higher on the external site. It's easy to do and people would.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        $1.00 isn't 'substantially lower.' As per the rules. So that ploy wouldn't work.
        My point was not the price difference but the fact I could have the same salespage on another domain at a higher price within minutes. So this rule prevents absolutely NOTHING from happening. Do you honestly think that small requirement would stop anyone currently selling WSO's? The answer -- NO!

        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        Affiliate programs are NOT 'payment processors.' They're two different things and at one time, before 2010, you could only use PayPal to buy WSO's.
        You've missed the point yet again. Platforms such as Clickbank ARE a payment processor and DO have a built in affiliate program. So are you going to prevent people from using certain payment processors because unless you do, this rule would never work.

        Besides, even if you restricted people to only using Paypal, there are so many third party affiliate scripts that integrate with Paypal that people would and could still use affiliate programs. There is no way to stop the affiliate side of things AT ALL.

        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        And the 'huge growth' = more amateurs, rookies and cowboys. They don't 'feed' you, they create a stranglehold on you.
        The huge growth has also meant record numbers of sales and more people looking at and purchasing your offer. The bigger the audience the bigger the potential for sales. There may have been fewer rules in the past that worked fine. The fact is we are not living in the past. Everyone wants to see the WSO community grow and with that you are always going to attract the less than desirables. As I previously stated, I am both a seller and buyer on the WSO forum and I don't have any issues with these people at all. I know how to dodge the idiots and focus on those who are really here to make a go of things.

        Any further rules or requirements you put in place will not deter the people we are trying to deter. They are the people who will literally do anything to make a dollar. Would you ever see me here spamming a forum with affiliate cookies all day long? No, I have much better things to do with my time. But these idiots do not. They will get around any rules you want to put in place. The smarter thing to do is to get wise to these people and learn to make educated and responsible decisions on your own -- without having to have others hold your hand. You won't get very far in life otherwise.

        Ya'll need to spit out the baby dummy and grow a pair... seriously (for your own good). Otherwise this industry will swallow you up and spit you out.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Gerald,
          I don´t know how he got away with that for so long..
          Simple: He wasn't getting reported.

          Danielle,
          You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact it is back when those WERE the rules, there weren't nearly as many stupid buyers bitching about stupid things that aren't wrong, but are done wrongly buy stupid sellers.
          There were nearly as many, I'd say, as a percentage of the group. The place was so small then, though, that you knew who they all were, and Michael Tracey (then moderator of the WSO section) kept them on a tight leash.

          Will,
          There is no way to stop the affiliate side of things AT ALL.
          Ummm... Yeah. There is. We could do it in an hour or less, if the decision to do so was made.

          No. Make that 10 minutes.

          Yes, there would be attempts at workarounds, but they'd end up with sellers abandoning the affiliate platforms en masse, out of fear of losing all their sales. Of course, they could just as easily go through the systems on other sites. It just wouldn't work here.

          I'm not endorsing that, or saying it's likely, but it is more than possible. It's simple.

          There are a lot of things about this place that you don't understand, Will. Not because you can't, mind you. Just because there's never been a need for you to look at them.


          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post


        you could only use PayPal to buy WSO's.

        You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact it is back when those WERE the rules, there weren't nearly as many stupid buyers bitching about stupid things that aren't wrong, but are done wrongly buy stupid sellers.

        Let me just repeat this so it's clear: Those WERE the rules at one time, and they DID work.

        If I ever post a WSO again, it will only be with a product that has been sold on the open market already, has proven to be selling at a higher price point thus going back to the original 'special' part of the offer for warriors only.
        Personally I have received hundreds of dollars in checks in my mail box for WSOs. The way I did it was to get the WF member to say "your checks in the mail." And I'd then deliver the product and within a week or two go to my mail box and get the check. Probably couldn't do that now. If I remember correctly (and I may not be) I think I paid for my Warrior Membership with a check. The Warrior Secret Site was the product and the Forum was a bonus.

        The rule about a WSO must be sold on the WF at a lower price than anywhere else never stopped "Warrior Only" WSOs.

        I remember when Teresa King did the first WSO and many of us copied her. (hope I got this right, it's been a long time)

        Personally I had a lot of WSOs that were not for sale anywhere else. They were "For Warriors Only" WSOs. (Hey Paul and Allen if I got this wrong please don't kick me out after all these years. )

        In fact my first WSO was when I went to NY for my Son's wedding and ran out of money.

        I did a WSO entitled "Home Alone In New York" and offered a service. I Woke up the next morning with over $400 in my paypal account. The money kept coming in and after returning to California, The first morning back I woke up with one sale for $400.

        Sorry for rambling, I said all the above just to say that the "rule" never meant you "Had" to sell elsewhere. It just meant that if you did sell elsewhere the product had to be lower on the WF. At least that is how it was interpreted by many and I never heard of anyone getting in trouble for interpreting it that way.

        George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

    Sturgeon's Law says, "90% of science fiction is crud, but then again, 90% of everything is crud." However, even Mr. Sturgeon would be disappointed by the quality of the WSOs around here.
    You may not entirely understand the purpose of a WSO.

    The WSO market is not designed to be where you get your products. It is designed to be where vendors get their lists.

    See, there are a number of different stages in being an internet marketer, and one of them is where you buy a lot of products.

    If you are too stupid to understand that "you pay for what you get," you will buy $5 product after $5 product after $5 product until you figure that out. This is what the WSO forum primarily provides.

    If you are too stupid to understand that a business does not come in a neat little package tied up with a bow, you will buy products at all kinds of price points until you figure that out. This is what the vendor lists built from the WSO forum provide.

    Then you figure out that what you need is a good mentor, a solid mastermind group, and maybe a month or two of private coaching. And you'll drop a LOT of money on the mentor and the coaching before settling into a steady, ongoing stream of payments to the mastermind group. And both the WSO forum and the vendor lists will occasionally wave these at you to see if you've gotten there yet.

    Your first couple of WSOs are going to be pretty damn cool, because they're new and exciting. Then you settle into "this is the same crap over and over." Yes. Yes, it is. And it works, in the short term. Enough to buy bigger and better products off the list.

    Those work, too, in kind of a mid-term way. You cement your vocabulary and your understanding of the field. You learn how the pieces fit together and what a working business looks like. And hopefully, you learn what YOUR working business is going to look like. This leads you to one or two vendors that resonate with you and can help you build that business.

    They will be your mentors. Maybe you will pay them, maybe you will just stalk them all over the internet and consume all their marketing materials left and right, maybe you will even develop a personal relationship with them and be able to ask them questions just because you like to talk marketing together. However it works, you will find the right mastermind (and the right coach, if necessary) to bring that business into reality.

    But people are impatient, so we have a lot of WSO vendors who are still in those first two stages. They wouldn't work through the stages and get to the next level. They never grasped what their business is supposed to be or what they want it to look like. They are simply grabbing their piece of the $5 WSO pie, or the listbuilding pie, or even the mastermind / membership pie... before they really know what it is they do or why.

    That's the 90% crap in that area. The rest of it is crap to you because you're probably ready to move on. It's time for you to dig into your archive of collected WSOs and find something you are going to focus on and make work, so you can get a couple hundred dollars that you will spend on bigger and better products through the vendor lists you've joined. And then you will select one or two of those products, and use them to generate a couple thousand dollars so you can get to the next level.

    WSOs really do work. They just don't do what most people think they do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Caliban,
      The WSO market is not designed to be where you get your products. It is designed to be where vendors get their lists.
      Small correction: That's how it's used by many of them, but not what it was designed for.


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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Small correction: That's how it's used by many of them, but not what it was designed for.
        It is arguable that the WSO forum is no longer designed by the owners, but by those who use it. You're completely right that this wasn't the intent of the original design, of course, but does it still do what it was designed for at all?

        Even when I got here three and a half years ago, it seemed like WSOs ran at all price points and usually represented a product which sold well outside the forum, being sold here at a discount as a special for Warriors.

        Today, that's not what I see at all.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Caliban,
          It is arguable that the WSO forum is no longer designed by the owners, but by those who use it.
          That's true of every member-driven site, to some extent. A very large extent in most. Hence my use of the past tense.

          Like I said: SMALL correction.

          A large correction happens when the sellers try to push things in certain ways that aren't acceptable here and we start stomping on new gimmicks. That almost always involves closing off loopholes and affects a lot of people.

          Rather like what we've done with the JV section in the past few days. Some people pushed the games too far, and we adapted. That section now requires that all posts be approved by a moderator before becoming visible, and the standards have tightened up even further.

          We're doing "front page weeding" for the moment. We cleared out the majority of the serial offenders (all the ones we could find), and just started deleting the old junk as it comes back to the top.

          There was some really slimy stuff going on in there. All it took to get it cleaned out was one person who made the effort to report the scammers as they reared their heads.

          The creeps re-designed that section, and we designed them out.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Caliban,That's true of every member-driven site, to some extent.
            Small correction: every good member-driven site.

            A large correction happens when the sellers try to push things in certain ways that aren't acceptable here and we start stomping on new gimmicks.
            And you guys do a great job of that. I won't rehash my usual quibble about the subtleties of WSO rules here (you've heard it enough), but it's such a minor thing that it's really important for me to occasionally say out loud that it's amazing how that's all I can find to bitch about.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      You may not entirely understand the purpose of a WSO.
      Dude, one of the most astute, deadly accurate posts I've seen in a long, long time. Thanks, I enjoyed reading it. That may be because I felt like I could have written it
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

        Dude, one of the most astute, deadly accurate posts I've seen in a long, long time. Thanks, I enjoyed reading it. That may be because I felt like I could have written it
        Considering the source, this is the highest praise I have received all year.
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  • Profile picture of the author RoadCEO
    This thread caught my attention as I recently launched a WSO that isn't performing (see link below)... Yet none of the above complaints seem to fit what I am offering. I think its mostly because of price and I am an unknown...

    Anyway in regards to the comment above about every WSO should be tested by WF before being allowed to be sold. Just from a standpoint of effort that wouldn't work. Also how many test sites would WF need to test the countless services, read the hundreds of ebooks and then test what they say to do which could takes months or even a year, by which time everything in IM changed again and what it was is no longer valid ... so forth ... I think all WF should do is ensure the product meets the policy and does not seem like some scam.
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      WillR
      Huge growth and record numbers of sales are not always in the best interest of the marketplace or the businesses operating within it.

      The Internet makes it 'easy' for the amateurs, and affiliate programs make it easier still.

      And when 'amateurs' experience huge growth and record sales, they often don't have the experience to handle it and they drown in the growth process. And sometimes, they end up taking innocent people down with them.

      Amateurs may have built the arc, but watch when everyone starts building amateur arcs... then realize they can sell tickets...until one of those amateurs didn't build it right, the boat sinks and people get hurt, or worse.

      You may be fine with that. You may be of the mind that it's the fault of the people who bought the ticket and got on the boat in the first place.

      Many are not of that mindset.

      This is why we have this thing called "liability." It doesn't matter if you think people shouldn't be 'allowed' to 'sue' the arc, but they are, and if they win, the business can be held liable.

      And if it happens too much, law steps in and introduces regulation. Which
      is good, at first. But then, regulation gets stupid too.


      Paul,
      Yes, as a percentage, maybe the same. As I said to Will, bigger isn't always better.

      I'd rather have less sales and better, tighter customer bases than 5,000
      $10 bargain basement buyers crap the affiliate cat dragged in.

      But that's just me. Like I said, if I post a WSO again, it will only be a product that I've already sold on the open market, and has 'proven' itself, with stats to back it up.

      George,
      That was way before my time. I think I started lurking here in 2005-2006.
      My mentor though, was one of the original members here, back when it was
      a private forum and people had to pay to get in. I believe she said she paid $95 or $100. She is the one who told me that it had to be proven to be 'selling' somehwere else before it would be approved as a WSO.

      She could be wrong too. Like you said, it was a long time ago.

      I've more than once considered making my products 'physical products' to
      offset the refund rates. But I'm weak on fulfillment skills. I'd love it
      if you would be willing to share some intel with me on the subject. I've
      looked at a few fulfillment services, but they read like stereo instructions
      to me. :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Danielle,

        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        Huge growth and record numbers of sales are not always in the best interest of the marketplace or the businesses operating within it.:
        No, I'm of the opinion that if you don't like it, go elsewhere. It's that simple... and I think that is fair enough.

        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        I'd rather have less sales and better, tighter customer bases than 5,000
        $10 bargain basement buyers crap the affiliate cat dragged in
        That's a choice YOU make. If you don't want a whole bunch of $10 buyers then don't sell your product for $10. If you want a smaller amount of high quality buyers then sell your product at a higher price and/or sell it elsewhere. It's that simple.

        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        I've more than once considered making my products 'physical products' to
        offset the refund rates. But I'm weak on fulfillment skills. I'd love it
        if you would be willing to share some intel with me on the subject. I've
        looked at a few fulfillment services, but they read like stereo instructions
        to me. :confused:
        You don't need physical products to fix your refund rate -- that's ludicrous. I have about 8 products selling in the WSO forum and between them have sold well over 10,000 copies. The highest refund rate any of my products has is 2% -- the majority of them have a refund rate of 0%. In fact the one with the 2% refund rate is largely because Warrior Plus doesn't prevent people buying the same product twice. I've had about 15 people purchase that same product more than once without realizing they had previously purchased it. So the true refund rate on that product would be about 1%.

        My point is, don't be so quick to blame the marketplace because clearly I am not having issues with refunders. In fact my refund rate is lower than most people would expect outside of this forum. So I would first step back and take a look at YOUR sales processes and YOUR products before you go blaming the marketplace for your refund rate.
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        • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
          Will,
          Your opinion has been noted and given it's due attention. You'll get about as much respect for yours as you give to mine.

          Not that I pay a whole lot of attention to anyone who is always so quick dismiss ideas about improvement on anything and thinks that everything is just 'perfect' as it is.

          As for my request regarding information on physical product fulfillment, it was to George, not you. But since you decided to stick your nose into it, I said to 'offset' refund rates. I didn't say it was because of any 'specific' marketplace, now did I? For that matter, I didn't even say what niche it was in. The fact is that people are less likely to refund if they have to physically return a product to do it.

          And that could very well mean the difference between a 2% refund rate, and a 1% refund rate.

          "Good enough," may be good enough for you. Some of us always strive for 'improvement.'
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          • Profile picture of the author WillR
            Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

            Not that I pay a whole lot of attention to anyone who is always so quick dismiss ideas about improvement on anything and thinks that everything is just 'perfect' as it is.
            Danielle,

            Remember not so long ago a new rule was introduced that stopped people posting details of their affiliate program within their WSO thread? That rule was a direct result of a suggestion I made. So to say I am so quick to dismiss ideas is clearly very far from reality. I am all for ideas that are going to help IMPROVE something. But yes, I will be quick to dismiss those ideas that are not going to make a difference or will actually have a negative impact on the marketplace.

            As pointed out, all of the ideas you brought forward are not going to make a difference.

            - Requiring people to post the same offer outside the forum at a higher price. That is easily done by everyone and anyone and would not stop a single thing.

            - Getting rid of affiliate programs. Impossible... that is unless you also plan on getting rid of every payment processor known to man kind.

            - Disabling comments in the WSO section. I'm actually not sure what problem this is suppose to be solving? This suggestion would actually lead to even more problems, I think. At least comments give some form of transparency in the WSO forum. Getting rid of them would only lead to less transparency and therefore people 'getting away' with things more often.

            You're whole response sounded very bitter. Just because someone does not agree with you doesn't mean they are brain dead or out to get you. I know a lot about Internet marketing so comments such as,

            "Good enough," may be good enough for you. Some of us always strive for 'improvement.'

            Are just plain stupid and rude.

            Done.
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      • Profile picture of the author George Wright
        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        George,
        I've more than once considered making my products 'physical products' to
        offset the refund rates. But I'm weak on fulfillment skills. I'd love it
        if you would be willing to share some intel with me on the subject. I've
        looked at a few fulfillment services, but they read like stereo instructions
        to me. :confused:
        Hi Danielle,

        I didn't mean to imply that I sold physical products, I sold digital products and services and allowed WF Members to send me a check after letting them download the products.

        The only physical products I ever sold were on eBay and my fulfillment method involved me making a trip to the post office.

        George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author BKKBound
    IMHO its not up to the Warrior Forum to "police" WSO's because the forum is very much Caveat Emptor, just like everywhere else on the net. If you dont like it, dont buy from the WSO folder. The reality is that there will always be some WSO's that fall short and some that over-deliver. I believe that imposing more rules and regulations will just cut down on the quality ones being released here instead of just direct to their lists.

    There is massive value to be had here for those that wish to take the time to read and make an informed decision based on that sellers long term feedback.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
    Well Will, I consider taking one sentence out of an entire 3 paragraphs, and then retorting to that without any acknowledgement to those 'supporting' three paragraphs, stupid and rude.

    Perhaps it's a culture thing.

    Yes, I remember your suggestion to stop allowing people to post their affiliate links.

    Good job.

    As Paul already told you, disabling affiliate programs is not impossible.

    As I already said previously, what I propose actually WAS the way it was and DID work.

    And now, I am done.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnno
      Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

      where else can you go and buy an SEO service for $99 that will shoot you up the top of the SERP's?
      And therein lies the problem............
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  • Profile picture of the author shawoon98
    Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

    Sturgeon's Law says, "90% of science fiction is crud, but then again, 90% of everything is crud." However, even Mr. Sturgeon would be disappointed by the quality of the WSOs around here.
    What is the STANDARD for Quality Control in IM products?

    which results in products that are priced way above their value and programs that have no reasonable hope of success.
    What is the Price STANDARD please?

    long-term sales come from word of mouth.
    I'd like to be informed about and buy your WSO/Product advising how to build a product that people will know by name, say by name and promote by name. Please don't price it above $7.

    Another problem comes from misusing price points. A "coincidentally" large number of WSOs have one-time prices in the neighborhood of $200 and/or monthly prices of around $20. Obviously some of these are genuinely worth the price. But in other cases, the sellers are simply using market research data (gathered over many years) indicating that these are prices that the customers will readily accept.
    Did you follow exactly what any of those says and failed to get promised result?

    The third problem is specific to various programs that have payouts:
    Promote only after using the products yourself. And choose from reliable affiliate network.

    Anyway, that's my rant. The WF staff may or may not be able to do better quality control in the WSO forum, although I hope they can and are willing to.
    Are you looking for a job as a moderator in WSO? Why not apply with your detailed resume?

    But even if not, you can now use what you learned above to spot the WSO snake oil.
    Let's forget the snake oil for a moment and spot some Cod Liver Oil in the WSO section so we can get some vitamins.
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  • Profile picture of the author Willing2Learn
    My solution...don't buy WSO's that don't have money back guarantee. Doesn't work for you...? Get a refund. Simple.
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  • Profile picture of the author Melody
    Wow - I don't hang out over here in the 'fun' side as much as I used - I miss these wonderful head banging sessions here!

    I've been a member since waaay longer than the date on my profile - I was actually a 'HostForProfit' client for years (how many of you have never heard of that??). Check around..

    I spend a great deal of time in the WSO section - and while I have indeed bought some real lame products - I have also bought some truly amazing products (especially software) that we use daily in our business for pennies on the dollar. Were they all perfect when we bought them? NO! But honestly, when you buy something that cheap, I expect to spend a little time with the developer, and for the most part - the Warriors have been very good at fixing glitches and squishing bugs.

    I cannot say the same about some expensive junk purchased outside the forum at full price. There is no accountability and so they don't care.

    And I see that as major benefit of buying WSOs - there is a certain level of transparency in that you can see who has purchased, who has had issues etc. I probably get pm'd a dozen times a week about a WSO I purchased - and yes, I tell the whole truth! This transparency does force a certain level of accountability - it's not perfect, but nothing is.

    The WSO section seems to go through 'waves' of great products, crap, fraud etc. I've bought some highly acclaimed dogs by well known senior Warriors - and some absolute gems by total unknowns.

    It's a crapshoot - but to be honest - it's my money. I have several active brain cells most days, and I am capable of making these buy decisions on my own. I do not expect Paul or Alan or anyone else to slog through every thing offered to make sure it is all of the very best quality - that's not practical or realistic.

    Maybe WSOs are designed for the sole purpose of building someone else's lists but if that is the case - they sure do screw up occasionally 'cuz I have gotten some damned good products over there.

    But don't tell anyone, okay? That just might screw things up......

    Mel
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    Our first "Digital Yard Sale"! A massive PLR Blowout Sale to help a friend pay medical expenses.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Melody

    I've been a member since waaay longer than the date on my profile - I was actually a 'HostForProfit' client for years (how many of you have never heard of that??). Check around..
    Raises hand.

    Edit... I see you said never not ever...

    Lowering hand.

    George Wright
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    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dave,
      What it doesn't do is stop the members from remarking that the status quo is less than perfect. Nor should it
      Very true, as long as they stay within the bounds of civility. You'll note, for example, that your post wasn't deleted. We encourage suggestions for positive change. We use the ones that are practical and will have an actual positive effect.

      Thing is, almost everything that's suggested has been offered before, and we've done the ones that we heard and would work. And quite a few that didn't work. So, as time goes on, more and more of the suggested changes are things that have been looked at, sometimes tried, and found to be impractical. Or, in many cases, would have negative effects.

      One of the biggest problems is that people don't know this stuff, and they get angry when they see something that doesn't look right to them, when they believe "fixing it" would be easy. That's a natural response. It is almost always the case that, when things are explained, they at least understand why they're done the way they are.

      There's a lot more to keeping the balance in a place this big than most people ever have to think about. Or ever should have to.


      Paul
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      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Melody
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      Melody



      Raises hand.

      Edit... I see you said never not ever...

      Lowering hand.

      George Wright
      LOL - we are showing our age, George!!

      Mel
      Signature
      Our first "Digital Yard Sale"! A massive PLR Blowout Sale to help a friend pay medical expenses.
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  • Profile picture of the author bassem
    the quality of the wso depends on the product creator, it's the person's to make a reasearch from who he's going to purshase, there are way goos products here but still garbage too. peoblem of people here is the wso addiction , and trust me some here keep byuying without even using their products,!! so it's not about the wso

    cheers
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