Dirty secrets of the industry

Well that's the great thing about this industry, the people that aren't in it (your target market) how no idea on how simple things are. They think, that it takes a bunch of high-technical coding and programming skills to set up a website.

Although a simple wordpress site is a lot less difficult to create then a customized HTML based website. So the price ranges could vary from low to high.

Aside from that, it's up to provide value to your customer in terms of how much you are charging. You should do the due diligence and present your clients fair pricing. If the keyword competition is low, and has let's say > 10 search volume a month, you shouldn't be charging $3,000 a month because well, you know that the return for your client won't be anywhere near that.

But you can present value in different ways. A lot of business owners usually jump at the fact that you can get them on #1 of "GOOGLE" for the keywords targeting their business. It's up to you at the end of the day to price however you want. But being honest and fair will lead you to a better place down the road.

The point is, its easy for the professional and VERY DIFFICULT to learn for those who are not. That's the pricing issue you've seemed to miss here.

OH YEAH! It used to be that they would charge like $25+ for a simple page, $100+ for ****EACH**** PROVIDED graphic, Over $100/hour, etc.... A single page HTML only site created by an IDIOT with NO SEO whatsoever could cost THOUSANDS! HELL, at one point several traffic companies charged DOZENS of dollars for JAVASCRIPT "links". They were near WORTHLESS in ANY regard! And what of the PURE graphic ones? NO SEO and hard to modify, but they LOOKED beautiful! And THEY cost a lot! That is one reason why ADOBE charged so much. Back then, they cost even MORE than they do NOW! And don't forget POSTSCRIPT! It was GREAT, and widely adopted INTERNATIONALLY and in MANY brands! It is GONE now! WHY? POSSIBLY, because it cost a FORTUNE!

And a lot of people DID fall for it. SOME people, however, even people "in IT", have ******NO****** idea of how complex some things can be, and think a VERY complex task is EASY!

FOR EXAMPLE! A person recently asked my group to change ONE value in an application. Basically, change its purpose. Sound simple? Well......

1. Change that ONE field? It may take less than a day. Maybe even SECONDS! BUT.....
2. What about ongoing processes? Where it is copied to? Maybe joins? etc....?
3. Reports?
4. Other consumers?
5. The loss of the original value?

All that Could take YEARS! It could mean discussing with who knows HOW many departments! And you better DOCUMENT it well, and handle upgrades right!

Anyway, more and more people are going to UNDERESTIMATE effort, etc... So you may find that MANY are unwilling to spend HUGE amounts for largely boilerplate stuff.

Steve

Effort does get underestimated - many of my clients think I should charge less for redoing a site that already exists. This is never easier, at least not to do right, but from their point of view, it looks like part of the work is already done.

The website design business can be frustrating precisely because the clients are ignorant, if you do honest work for honest pay. Good SEO in particular is invisible to clients (although the results aren't).

They get scammed so often, and then I fix the messes for a fraction of what they originally paid because of some slick sales pitch. However, it's satisfying to see their site traffic rise immediately.

Out of interest, I attended WordPress Wordcamp Vancouver last week, and they mentioned that in a survey they did, the average price of a WordPress website sold to a small business was $2500.

I think offline business owners are clueless when it comes to building a website. They'd be willing to spend thousands on a site that could have only costed $20 to create.

I couldn't help but laugh when I read $30,000 for a Wordpress site.

My guess is that the OP is in arizona

I'm not surprised that that happens somewhere, but it is probably the exception rather than the rule.

Its not only true in web industry but every industry I guess.

If the provider found out that the client doesn't have much info then the provider will crook him..

But this type of providers don't go a long way...I think...they will be paid back by bad karma...

TY

There once was a guy who owned a massive machine that made very special products. It was a machine that could turn out products that retailed for more than $100,000 every day. One day the machine broke down and the guy was frantic because he was losing so much money.

He called in this really smart technician to fix the machine. The tech showed up and looked the machine over. He took out several electronic testers and tested the thing. Then he took out a stethoscope and listened. "Hmmm..." he said. Finally he took out a tiny little silver hammer, went behind the machine, reached up high and tapped once very gently. And whammo! That sucker started up and began to spit out lots of product again.

The owner was overjoyed and asked the guy how much the bill was. The guy said, $500,000.00. The owner almost fainted saying $500,000 was outrageous because all the tech did was tap once gently with a hammer. The repair guy looked at the owner and said, "Here's the breakdown. $1.00 for tapping the machine. $499,999.00 for knowing where to tap.

It's hardly a dirty secret... Far from it. When you first jumped onto a computer what could you do with it? Nothing... You had to learn a set of skills. In fact a whole bunch of different skills, right.

That's worth something... Much like a doctor with specialized knowledge or a lawyer getting you off a parking fine. Specialized knowledge is worth whatever another will pay for it and that comes down to how bad they need or want what you've got.

I have a customer that is an anesthesiologist. He makes $600,000 per year. Apparently all he does is play on his phone all day until sh** goes down and he has to step in to save someone from being brain dead in about 20 seconds. Then he goes back to playing on his phone.

I guess he makes more than some of the surgeons doing the surgery and he might have 2 or 3 going on at once.

I was sitting in a restaurant one day and overheard two people saying they really needed to get a new website built, but they'd have to be selective because they didn't want to spend more than $50,000.

Now imagine if I had turned around and said "I can build your website for $40,000. Here's my card."

Then imagine I called your friend to build it for $30,000.

- The business owners save $10,000 on their website.
- Your friend gets $30,000 for building the website.
- I get $10,000 for giving them my card.

Everybody wins. Everybody gets what they want. Everybody is happy.

If you have a problem with it, you don't understand business and will always be broke.

It's okay - I used to have a problem with this, too. Because I didn't understand business. And I was always broke.

Haha, this is also apparent with a lot of 'SEO gurus' around my area.

Corporates literally fork out nearly 10 grand for SEO and that's only targeting one keyword whereas the service I use (not owned by me) allows me 40+ keywords for not even 10% of that price.

A lot of people I know also paid about 10k for a website that doesn't convert and isn't even optimized for SEO nor has any sort of income-producing purpose other than give information.

Ignorance really has a price doesn't it.

Now the prices hit rock bottom... you can have the greatest looking web site in your industry by paying $40 for a premium theme

I do not think that this can be a dirty secret. Even in general market, if you go to a market and see something which is new to you, you will become interested to buy that. Naturally it will be high price regardless the costing of that product. Because it is a new product.

Similarly, web design market is something new to people still now. . Even you can take this chance to make some good amount of moeny.

Some sites do literally cost hundreds of thousands... if you are talking $30k for a blog then yes that's a rip off.

There are price points for all levels of work. A $30,000 website is not a "dirty little secret" if it's high end work. Fortune 500 companies often spend more than this on their sites. The difference between someone charging $200 at odesk and the $30,000 studio is not even worth discussing.

Web design is both technical and a form of art. You can't buy a Picasso for fifty bucks.

2advanced.com
totalidentity.com
thebrandunion.com
agencynet.com

On the other hand, if someone is presenting themselves as something they are not with the mindset of maximizing profits and not delivering true value, well, it is what it is. Those people rarely make a career of what they do. They make money here and there, but end up back in the gutter.

WordPress has created a ton of wannabe designers. You look at their portfolios and they are basically designing the same site over and over. Just a different header, background and color schemes. Pathetic.

That makes me sick.

It's abuse - just because the person paying doesn't realise you're lying to them and charging them for crap doesn't mean you should do it.

That's why the industry gets a bad reputation.

I suppose I shouldn't complain because it means that when people come to me and get real value and results they're always very happy and like to tell others.

I hate it when clients come to me and tell me how they've been ripped off by people promising them results that were not possible or realistic or just BSing them about how hard things are so they can charge them more.

The reality of this stuff is that big companies will happily pay good money for simple things because it's not just the time it takes that they're paying for - they're paying for ongoing support, and the security that no matter what happens you'll be there for them.

Many little guys do not realise what is involved and want to pay as little as possible and end up paying rip-off merchants who take all the short cuts and can only get them poor to average results at best.

I believe it's not our job to rip people off - but to educate them as to what they should want. If they want bottom-dollar price and unrealistic promises then they're going to get the low end of the spectrum as their provider.

I think you should go into web design to find out the pains designers go through lol.
I mean it's easy being on the outside looking in but customers can be a royal pain.

Try redesigning a site you thought was a piece of cake only to find out it was on an old outdated windows database that you have to go in and extract the old information step by step and then port it over to a new windows format.

Try dealing with those last minute changes that the client wants or emergencies.
Try feeding your family while your clients wait to pay their bills.

There's a lot more to web design then just being on the outside looking in. Oh, and btw not all clients care for Wordpress. Heck I still don't know if you can get wordpress up to PCI standards.

Haha honestly does it matter for those people who are earning average at least 6 figures monthly. Maybe they are just busy with their own work. 30k is like their cup of tea.

Why don't I just draw out the characters for my latest project?

Well I suck at drawing. So I pay a premium to get those digital jpegs sent to my email address.

Sure I could learn. But my drawing experience is little. I bet its actually as easy as installing an Analytic's code if you know what your doing. Bottom line?

I don't know what I'm doing.

Is $75 too much for the installation of an analytic's code? I say yet, but I understand the mechanics of installing such a code. I'm sure the dude I pay $$$ to draw and color my jpegs says the same thing to his own industry friends.

BP

Good for them!

If the business is doing more than six figures every year then it doesn't hurt to shell out $30,000 for a website that will strengthen the bottom line even further.

It's not the web designers fault that the business owner is willing to pay that much. He's not building websites for a social cause. He's doing it for a living. If the web designers overcharge, they don't get any clients. Period.

Now, if the business owner hasn't done his research, that's his lookout. Plus, There is always someone out there offering the same service cheaper. Also, if I was a tech noob business owner and a web-designer provided rock-solid service at 30K I'd be willing to stick with him EVEN AFTER I find out that there are cheaper alternatives. Why? It's less of a headache. We do it all the time. Why do you use Windows/MAC over Linux? It's less of a headache to stick with what you know.

Plus web designing is a tedious task. Sure, almost anyone could install a Wordpress site, but try modding it. When the client is paying $30,000 and tells you I want BLAHBLAH to go here you can't tell them, sorry but there's no theme or plugin that does that. They'll take their business elsewhere. You hack into Wordpress and make it look just the way he wants it. Now that takes a lot of work.

The business owner is delegating his stress. It's a voluntary transaction. Everybody wins.

I work as a developer and sites are expensive if they are worth it. Sure a premium theme is ok for an info site but what about a customised ecommerce solution using open source? 30k might not be enough. Sure if the site is basically just info with a premium theme it is a rip off. However I have worked on huge teams working on a site for over a year. Let me tell you that 30k barely covers a fraction of the overall cost.

That would be another story is the project is to build a mission critical website like banking, large scale trading market, etc...that price may worth.

Those numbers are amazing. Are we living in the same world? I know that high-end complicated sites could cost a lot but if that is what an offline business owner is paying for a simple website, it is unbelievable.

What I don't understand is how a business owner that doesn't make research to find cheaper and probably better alternatives before spending $30,000 on a website can become so successful in his business so that he can spend $30,000 on a website.

$75 for Google Analytics is a bit much but if the rate is $100 an hour its not too inflated. In the professional web development world, everything is checked to make sure it works, probably set up conversion points and stuff, checked to make sure it worked... tada 45 minutes down the drain. So no $75 isn't unreasonable.

I charge $50 an hr for phone consulting and $100 an hour for hands on work... so if you ask me to type you SEO articles, you are still paying me $100 an hour. Same if you ask me to set up Google Analytics. I am not ripping you off, that's what my time is worth. Period. Don't like it, hire someone else.

Don't be fooled. Finding someone who will pay $30,000 for a website is like finding someone who will pay $30,000 for someone to mow a small lawn. I have worked with many celebrity clients and had design studios make websites for them and none of them cost anywhere near $30,000 and they were top-notch stuff. Winners of webby awards and all that.

There was a company that had its network go down. They tried and tried to get it back online but nothing they did worked. As they were constantly losing money while the network was down they decided to call a man known for his problem solving skills. The man comes in, pushes a button in the back and everything comes online.

The owner thanks the man over and over and then asks how much he is owed.
This man calmly responds with the figure of $20K.

"WHAT?!" cries the owner. "How can you charge so much for something so simple."

The man calmly explains: "It's not how many buttons you push, but rather knowing what buttons to push"

JL

It is down to how you position yourself.

What you tend to forget are all other expenses around a product. If a company can sell a website for 30K, it means this company has to advertise A LOT. It has to have an office in a business area that costs a lot (those "no clue" offline people would never trust someone who only has an online presence), and this office must have some good selling people in it. And, the company pays taxes too. This is what makes the price so high.

These days it is relatively easy to create a decent web site with tools like Wordpress but depending the client and how particular they are the amount of time and effort required can increase rapidly. I had a friend who ran a web site design company and he told me his big clients were incredilby picky and difficult constantly wanting changes and pushing extra things. Because they were big clients he treid to meet their needs but it did impact his labour costs and foreced up prices he charged them.

Fiverr is forcing people wake up. Why pay $500.00 for a simple logo, when can use a fiverr to get one. Basically, it is now a new game. A lot of people are using out sourcing to hire off shore inexpensive programmers. Art work creation is also being sent over seas. If you create new web sites now. Well, expect a dramatic drop in your income.

I'm a web developer and built my own website in 12 hours that includes an online shopping cart using OpenCart, a PhPBB forum and also installed my own google analytic and FaceBook intergration. Its only been online a week and its slowly building traffic but I realized I would be better off creating sites for other people. The money to be made there is massive. I just need to build my portfolio of sites.

People will throw money at their problems to make them go away.

Think for a second at how much work is involved for us online marketers to get a new project underway, create the product, hire freelancers, get the website built, get graphics done, sales copy, affiliate JV's, and the list goes on...

There's a lot of work in doing all that no doubt so our days are filled with our own projects to grow our business.

If the water heater suddenly stops working in your home do you think you would search the internet looking for a reasonable answer as to what it might be or are you just going to call a professional and make the problem go away?

My point is, offline business owners are far too busy with the day to day operations of their own business so they don't have a spec of time to learning how to setup a website or even researching what a website should have and cost, etc.

They just hire someone to do it for them.

it is a cruel business world after all.. not surprising but there are bound to have black sheep in any industry.