Do "guru's" exaggerate on their numbers...???

by ktlasm
66 replies
Hey Good People,

I love asking questions and reading all the viewpoints on various topics here(hence, why i love the WF). Anyway, as all of us or majority of us know. Many of the well known internet marketers do a good job at that...becoming well known. But, I have to be honest with all of you and say that at times I feel some of the figures displayed on their launches is a bit...Well...brow raising at times. I'd just like to know if you feel all numbers they spit out are accurate(i.e. believable) as to how they promote it. Ciao!
#exaggerate #guru #numbers
  • Profile picture of the author GavinLively
    Banned
    Originally Posted by ktlasm View Post

    Hey Good People,

    I love asking questions and reading all the viewpoints on various topics here(hence, why i love the WF). Anyway, as all of us or majority of us know. Many of the well known internet marketers do a good job at that...becoming well known. But, I have to be honest with all of you and say that at times I feel some of the figures displayed on their launches is a bit...Well...brow raising at times. I'd just like to know if you feel all numbers they spit out are accurate(i.e. believable) as to how they promote it. Ciao!
    It depends on which "guru" it is...Some wanna-be's exagerate all day long because they are not who they really say they are...

    I would say most "guru's" that flash the huge numbers are not telling every little tiny detail of exactly how they achieved those numbers...I suspect the ones that full on fudge the numbers are very far and few between...But that is just my humble opinion.

    Gavin
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  • Profile picture of the author mix_daylee
    Some gurus do have a tendency to exagerate. For example, one guru mentioned that their business makes over 7 figures a year, yet they couldn't pay their taxes. How do I know, I googled the corporation's name and I got more informationed that I bargained for. Definitely a big eye opener.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
    Originally Posted by ktlasm View Post

    Do "guru's" exaggerate on their numbers...???
    YES, and, therefore, you should, too. UNLESS, your goal is relationship building. Theirs is not... it's profit-building. Either way is fine, it's just important to know the distinction.

    Best wishes,
    Eric
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  • Profile picture of the author ktlasm
    Great post thus far...Interesting!
    Signature

    I'm pretty cool if I say so myself...lol, and I know my stuff, folks. I'm 31 years old and I'm full, full, full time on the internet. No part timing around this way...I'm here because I simply enjoy spreading as much love & light as I possibly can. Check me out on facebook,& say Hi. http://www.facebook.com/kevingmadison or twitter http://www.twitter.com/kevinmadison

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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
    I think many gurus like to talk GROSS rather than NET.

    I don't mean actual after-all-expenses net, but at least take out the 50% or better you've paid in affiliate fees. ...another big cost not even mentioned is often Advertising cost.

    So, when a guru says, "I did 1.3 million in 6 hours" or whatever, it would be more accurate to say, " I did $650,000 in 6 hours after affiliate fees and ad costs".

    But since that doesn't sound as impressive, its not likely to be adopted. :-)
    _____
    Bruce
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    • Profile picture of the author jamesviago
      Originally Posted by brucerby View Post

      I think many gurus like to talk GROSS rather than NET.

      I don't mean actual after-all-expenses net, but at least take out the 50% or better you've paid in affiliate fees. ...another big cost not even mentioned is often Advertising cost.

      So, when a guru says, "I did 1.3 million in 6 hours" or whatever, it would be more accurate to say, " I did $650,000 in 6 hours after affiliate fees and ad costs".

      But since that doesn't sound as impressive, its not likely to be adopted. :-)
      _____
      Bruce
      spot on bruce. gross numbers don't pay the bills.
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  • Profile picture of the author jayden.fellze
    Its always the exaggerated posts that can persuade individuals especially the newbies. But in my opinion, i don't actually believe that it is true. In most cases, it might be impressive but that does not mean that the figures are existing. It might not be impossible but it is highly improbable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Dolan
    I think its obvious if you keep watching the blurb the "gurus" send that they show you the same accounts over and over.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanSupplee
    I agree with Bruce on this one I know a few marketers myself that make 7 figures and have to say they do all talk in gross for at the end of the year when taxes come due its hard to know those numbers ahead of time. Selling a product for $97 really boils down to about $50 with taxes taken out again always sounds depressing lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    I don't think the most respected gurus would be stupid enough to exaggerate their numbers because if they were found out that would put a massive black mark next to their name. And they've spent years building their reputation.

    People like John Reese (when he was more involved), Paul Myers, Jeff Walker and the like are people I trust.

    For me if a person lies about their numbers then they're not a Guru. They're a conman. Some people are unethical. That's just part of life. However I think the most people are honest and trustworthy. And the people who do lie and exaggerate will be found out eventually so it's not going to benefit them in the long run.
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    "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Originally Posted by ktlasm View Post

    Hey Good People,

    I love asking questions and reading all the viewpoints on various topics here(hence, why i love the WF). Anyway, as all of us or majority of us know. Many of the well known internet marketers do a good job at that...becoming well known. But, I have to be honest with all of you and say that at times I feel some of the figures displayed on their launches is a bit...Well...brow raising at times. I'd just like to know if you feel all numbers they spit out are accurate(i.e. believable) as to how they promote it. Ciao!
    NEVER believe the screenshots of Clickbank/CJ/Paypal earnings. They make bogus figures using a simple line of javascript in the browser. Here, have a go yourself - You Too Can Be a Clickbank Millionaire
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark .W. James
    I really find it hard to beleive these gurus even cross $100,000 with a single product....
    50k.. maybe... but only a complete bad ass product can hit six figures.....
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  • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
    I think the "guru's" stuff is all hype, and they make all their money by selling their schemes, systems, ebooks, DVDs, etc. to us pigeons.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

      I think the "guru's" stuff is all hype, and they make all their money by selling their schemes, systems, ebooks, DVDs, etc. to us pigeons.
      You're wrong about that. There are some people that do that. But there are many of them who are passionate about teaching. Eben Pagan is a good example.
      Signature
      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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      • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
        Originally Posted by ZigZag View Post

        You're wrong about that. There are some people that do that. But there are many of them who are passionate about teaching. Eben Pagan is a good example.
        Well, you point out one exception. I didn't say ALL gurus are like that, but I believe large majority of them are. Especially those with the hugely long marketing pages with fancy graphics, videos and dozens of testimonials with audio and video. It takes a LOT of time, money and people to produce those marketing site! So, they have to make big bucks selling their programs.

        If their systems were SO PROFITABLE and SUSTAINABLE, why aren't they putting all there time and effort in using their own system to make more money. If they were so "passionate about teaching", why don't they give there systems awy for free or a nominal production cost?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
          Most gurus aren't like that at all. That's my opinion and I've been in this community a long time.

          So you're saying that graphics, videos, testimonials, audio, and video means that somehow people are being unethical and lying about their numbers. Well if you say so. That's not an opinion that is held by me. Believe it or not many people simply love what they do.
          Signature
          "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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        • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
          Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

          Well, you point out one exception. I didn't say ALL gurus are like that, but I believe large majority of them are. Especially those with the hugely long marketing pages with fancy graphics, videos and dozens of testimonials with audio and video. It takes a LOT of time, money and people to produce those marketing site! So, they have to make big bucks selling their programs.

          If their systems were SO PROFITABLE and SUSTAINABLE, why aren't they putting all there time and effort in using their own system to make more money. If they were so "passionate about teaching", why don't they give there systems awy for free or a nominal production cost?

          Hmmm usual nonsense talk...

          They make thier money doing it and selling it thats why they are in the IM niche, the IM niche is about selling how to make money online products.

          And give me one good reason why they should teach for free... I can see how that benefits you, cant for the life of me see how that benefits them?

          Robert

          PS: Ok this is probably going to get me some hate mail, but someone here will see this and a light bulb will go off and i will have done my altruistic good deed for the day...

          FREE stuff should just be enough to leave your subscribers, members and customers wanting to buy the rest of the course. Give good quality stuff away for sure, but you have to leave something out to sell.

          If everything was for free nobody makes any money ad even this forum wouldnt be needed "here is where we talk about making money"
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          • Profile picture of the author jamsferguson
            Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

            Hmmm usual nonsense talk...

            They make thier money doing it and selling it thats why they are in the IM niche, the IM niche is about selling how to make money online products.

            And give me one good reason why they should teach for free... I can see how that benefits you, cant for the life of me see how that benefits them?

            Robert

            PS: Ok this is probably going to get me some hate mail, but someone here will see this and a light bulb will go off and i will have done my altruistic good deed for the day...

            FREE stuff should just be enough to leave your subscribers, members and customers wanting to buy the rest of the course. Give good quality stuff away for sure, but you have to leave something out to sell.

            If everything was for free nobody makes any money ad even this forum wouldnt be needed "here is where we talk about making money"
            I don't see why you should get any hate mail for that - If something is free then is does not have to be the very best and the last word on a subject too.

            I can see someone complaining about my free product - my response? -" I will refund you immediately!"
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

          If their systems were SO PROFITABLE and SUSTAINABLE, why aren't they putting all there time and effort in using their own system to make more money. If they were so "passionate about teaching", why don't they give there systems awy for free or a nominal production cost?
          Since I'm sure others probably think this at some point too, I wanted to answer it.

          There are several reasons for this:

          1 - Some people DO give it away for free. Just look around. I've given my last 4 product away for free.

          2 - Free is not always best for anyone.

          I asked about this recently and some very interesting comments came back.

          To some up the most compelling....... People generally don't respect things they get for free and are less likely to actually take action based on free stuff compared to what they pay for.

          YOU may not believe that if you want free stuff - but it's true, and it's the reason why I won't always give things away for free.

          3 - Just because someone is earning good money doesn't mean they owe YOU anything - and being successful does not mean you shouldn't charge fair price for your work.

          4 - There's always more you can do when you have more money.

          If you want to help others then money is a great tool, so why wouldn't you want to keep making it even after the necessity for it in your own life is gone?

          I can't imagine a time when I wouldn't be able to help more people simply by having more money to do it with.

          Andy
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          nothing to see here.

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          • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
            Listen, I know there are decent "gurus" out there that sell information on IM techniques, and I do not begrudge them in the least making money from selling their legitimate information for honest and moral techniques. And, yes there are some "good guys" that even give some information for free and/or help us out on forums by answering questions.

            I'm talking about those over-hyped marketers that claim you can easily make $1,000 per day with only 1-2 hours of "work" - BULL!! At least not honestly, legally, and morally.
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            Joe R.

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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    I don't think of myself as a guru. However when I show my numbers they are legit and verifiable.

    It's pretty easy to fudge a stats screenshot which is why i use video captures of my stats.

    Sure some people use fake stats even fake testimonials. Part of the process is to make a judgement for yourself about the overall credibility of the guru and their offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
    No, I am not saying "...graphics, videos, testimonials, audio, and video means that somehow people are being unethical and lying about their numbers." I am saying that is evidence that those elaborate marketing sites cost a lot in manpower and money to put together. If the system they are selling is so good, why are they diverting so much time, energy and money in a sales pitch instead of USING their own system to make more money? It just is NOT logical. If they were so altruistic and eager to teach, they would be spreading the knowledge freely.
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    Joe R.

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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      Why shouldn't they charge money for high-quality information that improves people's lives while doing something that they're passionate about?
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      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

      I am saying that is evidence that those elaborate marketing sites cost a lot in manpower and money to put together. If the system they are selling is so good, why are they diverting so much time, energy and money in a sales pitch instead of USING their own system to make more money?
      Why not? They do it because they can make money doing it. Duh. But what makes you think it isn't possible to do both? Just because I make decent money selling information products doesn't mean I can't create an information product teaching people how to do what I do. There's no rule that says I can't do both.

      It just is NOT logical. If they were so altruistic and eager to teach, they would be spreading the knowledge freely.
      And now the truth comes out. Yet another poser looking for something for free. Logic is the last thing you should bring into this conversation. And where did you ever get the idea that these folks are in the charity business? If you ever get a business started, I assume you'll be giving your stuff away for free, right? You know, in the name of altruism. You will if you're truly eager to make sure your customers get what they need. If you're truly eager to teach people how to set up a computer network, you won't charge them a dime for it. If you want to make sure the scared single mom gets a stun gun for her self defense, you won't charge her for it.

      Yeah,good luck with that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy1750
    Hi Kevin,

    Take everything that you read in a sales letter or promotional email with a pinch of salt. If making money online was as easy as the gurus claim it to be we wouldn't be spending so much time in this forum - we'd be sitting in the sun in the Miami sunshine on the lawn of our luxury villa enjoying a bottle of Crystal.

    To be fair a positive sway on things is what marketing is all about. However, some of the excessive over exageration is a little too near the mark in my opinion preying on vulnerable people that don't have the ability or experience to know any better.

    Just think about some of the methods that the gurus teach - i.e. making up stories! This is marketing and it does go on. However, it's a fair assumption that if they adopt these tactics when marketing non-IM related products they are also using the same tactics on you.

    Best way to get an unbiased review of a product is to check out the product reviews section of Warriorforum. Just beware comments from a people with a signature to a site promoting the product under discussion. Nevertheless there does seem to be an unspoken rule in this forum that you should never bash the gurus. Complete nonsense in my opinion and they should be judged purely on the quality of their help and advice and not just on their often highly overinflated reputation.

    Thanks,

    Andy
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    Not trying to sell you anything :-)

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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
      The rule is that you shouldn't bash the good gurus. (Well you can but you'll end up looking foolish.) Because they help people tremendously. They're the only ones worth listening to anyway.
      Signature
      "Each problem has hidden in it an opportunity so powerful that it literally dwarfs the problem. The greatest success stories were created by people who recognized a problem and turned it into an opportunity."―Joseph Sugarman
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  • Profile picture of the author dean_holland
    Me personally I believe that the gurus who are classed as the gurus dont exagerate the truth...

    What I will say in agreement with another comment above is that the figures told are the sales figures not profit figures.... A comment was made to me before that on my blog I was selling myself short because I posted on my blog that I made around $1700 in 1 affiliate promotion I did.... This person told me I should be stating I made $3400 in the affiliate promotion !

    This is not telling any lies, its very true I did generate $3400 for that promotion... But the facts are that my cut was $1700, I think you will agree though that the first statement looks better for me.

    Both are true, 1 looks more impressivebut none are lies !

    I think a lot of newbies will try and show fake proof as they maybe feel they have to compete with the gurus but I dont feel any top marketers need to exagerate or lie

    Dean
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  • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
    If you generated $3400 in gross sales and your "cut" was $1700, then YOU made $1700, to say otherwise would be a LIE. Also, implying that $1700 is you net profit, and neglecting to mention $150 of promotional costs (which would make your NET profit $1550), would also be very misleading.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
      Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

      If you generated $3400 in gross sales and your "cut" was $1700, then YOU made $1700, to say otherwise would be a LIE. Also, implying that $1700 is you net profit, and neglecting to mention $150 of promotional costs (which would make your NET profit $1550), would also be very misleading.
      I always show my gross numbers (not meaning the full price of a product but my full cut).

      Who cares if I spend $50k to make $80k. I am still going to show my gross sales. Everyone has expenses.
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      • Profile picture of the author ktlasm
        Wow, some very very good points raised here...Veeeery!
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        I'm pretty cool if I say so myself...lol, and I know my stuff, folks. I'm 31 years old and I'm full, full, full time on the internet. No part timing around this way...I'm here because I simply enjoy spreading as much love & light as I possibly can. Check me out on facebook,& say Hi. http://www.facebook.com/kevingmadison or twitter http://www.twitter.com/kevinmadison

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        • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
          Originally Posted by amudara View Post

          I really find it hard to beleive these gurus even cross $100,000 with a single product....
          50k.. maybe... but only a complete bad ass product can hit six figures.....
          that sort of belief will certianly hold you back. You dont think someone with a list of 100,000 can pull off 1,001 sales of a $100 product? And that's before you add in the lists of their jv's..

          Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

          I think the "guru's" stuff is all hype, and they make all their money by selling their schemes, systems, ebooks, DVDs, etc. to us pigeons.
          yup - they make their money selling stuff.. you figured out the secret

          Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

          If their systems were SO PROFITABLE and SUSTAINABLE, why aren't they putting all there time and effort in using their own system to make more money.
          What in the h*ll do you think they are doing? They are using their 'systems' to sell their products!
          It amazes me that so many people think that a marketer, marketing thier own product about marketing, is somehow no longer really marketing. :confused:

          The fact that so many people find it so hard to believe that others can achieve such levels of success means that they will never achieve that level themselves. If you don't beleive you make over 100k selling a product to your own list, then I doubt you would bother to take all the time and effort required to build that list, build the relationship with that list, and build relationships with other marketers, required to do just that.
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          -Jason

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          • Profile picture of the author dean_holland
            Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

            that sort of belief will certianly hold you back. You dont think someone with a list of 100,000 can pull off 1,001 sales of a $100 product? And that's before you add in the lists of their jv's..



            yup - they make their money selling stuff.. you figured out the secret



            What in the h*ll do you think they are doing? They are using their 'systems' to sell their products!
            It amazes me that so many people think that a marketer, marketing thier own product about marketing, is somehow no longer really marketing. :confused:

            The fact that so many people find it so hard to believe that others can achieve such levels of success means that they will never achieve that level themselves. If you don't beleive you make over 100k selling a product to your own list, then I doubt you would bother to take all the time and effort required to build that list, build the relationship with that list, and build relationships with other marketers, required to do just that.
            Jason

            Well put sir !!

            Glad someone highlighted this !!
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  • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
    We will never know the answer to your question.. and the more we discuss it, the more peoples minds are going to be warped by the twisted opinions of others..

    Believe it or not.. it's up to you how much income claims bear on your decision making about a person.

    Peace

    Jay
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    Bare Murkage.........

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  • Profile picture of the author alpalino
    On the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone and pretend to earn lots of money. But I am sure, there are alot of geniune gurus here they earn good money.
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  • Profile picture of the author eMarketing_Tips
    Generaly internet numbers these days are resonnably easy to track and verify yourself. Weather its a website with Quantcast.com or compete.com or other numbers there are tools out there to help you monitor if what people say are real.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaunAllen
    I think part of the problem is believing that
    the amount you see on the clickbank screen-
    shots is going directly into the bank.

    We sometimes forget about the taxes we have
    to pay. This doesn't necessarily mean the
    guru's aren't being honest either.

    I think a problem is that if you make $2,000
    per day but it takes you $1,000 to make that
    you need to disclose that. I think some Adwords
    products are actually doing this now.
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  • Profile picture of the author ktlasm
    To put it simply...I only care about the net, period. It changes the whole mind frame of whether or not the numbers are believable. It's like when you have a job and you get your paycheck and see the gross. Sure, it looks nice, but darn if it helps when it's time to spend it. Feel me??? Hope ya do.
    Signature

    I'm pretty cool if I say so myself...lol, and I know my stuff, folks. I'm 31 years old and I'm full, full, full time on the internet. No part timing around this way...I'm here because I simply enjoy spreading as much love & light as I possibly can. Check me out on facebook,& say Hi. http://www.facebook.com/kevingmadison or twitter http://www.twitter.com/kevinmadison

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  • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
    Dave and Ktlasm,

    I could not agree with you more!

    I was originally talking about DIRECT SALES COSTS, not the business expenses we are all faced with, like: office supplies, utilities, telephone, yes, and even TAXES.

    If I told you I would sell you a system for $97 (assuming it had this REALLY LONG marketing page with all kinds of testimonials, screen shots of AdSense payments, videos, and audios). that would bring in $100 a day in AdSense earnings, would you buy it?

    After buying this wonderful system, what would you say if you then found out I "neglected" to disclose that it cost $150 a day in AdWords expense to generate that level of GROSS income? That's a DIRECT $50/day NET LOSS!

    There is no way any reasonable person can defend such deception by omission.
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    Joe R.

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    • Profile picture of the author ptwain
      What I realized over the years buying products from various so called gurus is that real gurus provide you with a step by step plan to succeed. They don't provide screenshots of clickbank sales, or adsense earnings. As for the conmen out there, they are always quick to prove their product with earning screenshots and fake testomonials. But in the end their products are full of fluff and filler material.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Silvester
    No Way...Guru's Dont Inflate The Numbers...

    I REALLY did make a kazillion dollars per second
    from using twitter

    Take Care,

    Michael Silvester
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  • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
    Another thing that some of them neglect to tell you when presenting their HUGE AdSense, ClickBank, and other affiliate earnings, is that it took 5 YEARS (or more) to build up to that level of earnings!
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    Joe R.

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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by ptwain View Post

      As for the conmen out there, they are always quick to prove their product with earning screenshots and fake testomonials.
      This is nothing but an assumption.
      Providing a "proponderance of evidence" is prudent marketing. if your reputation doesn't precede you, then you darn well better pull out all the stops to convince others you are the real deal. Personaly, I think the only people who don't provide proof and testimonials are those people who have nothing to show (with a few exceptions of course).


      Originally Posted by ArtfulWebSites View Post

      Another thing that some of them neglect to tell you when presenting their HUGE AdSense, ClickBank, and other affiliate earnings, is that it took 5 YEARS (or more) to build up to that level of earnings!
      Although you have a good point, that doesn't really invalidate their teachings. In 1 year I went from $zero to $7k a month with IM - doing this only part time on the side. Now I'm promoting some continuity programs, and my income is just taking off. I may not be making millions like the big dogs, but I can emulate them on a smaller scale and do very well.
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      -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
    Jason,

    Kudos to you for accomplishing that level of income in just one year. I'm not about making the millions like the big dogs either. I just want to provide some supplemental income in my retirement.

    What do you mean by: "promoting some continuity programs"?
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    Joe R.

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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Adams
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    P.S. If you found my post useful, please click the "Thanks" button below...
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      • Profile picture of the author jamesviago
        Originally Posted by Melford Bibens View Post

        Everyone exaggerates...
        rotflmao


        :p:p:p:p

        i think you're exaggerating a million times more than anyone.
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      • Profile picture of the author davecurr
        Hi Melford

        is "my help is free.com" one of your businesses?

        regards

        Dave
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        • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
          I for one don't understand this thread one bit. I look at it this way: how does what someone else claims to earn have any bearing on focusing on my own business and my own profits?

          Absolutely nothing. <Gets back to work on own business>

          RoD
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          "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
          - Jim Rohn
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          • Profile picture of the author ktlasm
            Well...Rod...You're just the type of person I like to address in situations like this.(lol..nevermind I'll be cool on this one). Anyway, threads like this are started because of people who have managed to be successful in IM and experience what actual people go through and want to know, period. Nothing in this forum is irrelevant or pointless for many reasons...I'll give you one because I find me actually writing this pointless...(I crack myself up). People want to know more than ever on what to believe and not to. Especially when they are parting with their money in order to learn from a supposed credible source. I actually see it quite shocking that someone as active as you are in the WF not to see the significance in a thread like this...Oh well, can't please everyone now can ya..lol. Ciao my friend!
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            I'm pretty cool if I say so myself...lol, and I know my stuff, folks. I'm 31 years old and I'm full, full, full time on the internet. No part timing around this way...I'm here because I simply enjoy spreading as much love & light as I possibly can. Check me out on facebook,& say Hi. http://www.facebook.com/kevingmadison or twitter http://www.twitter.com/kevinmadison

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            • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
              Originally Posted by ktlasm View Post

              Well...Rod...You're just the type of person I like to address in situations like this.(lol..nevermind I'll be cool on this one). Anyway, threads like this are started because of people who have managed to be successful in IM and experience what actual people go through and want to know, period. Nothing in this forum is irrelevant or pointless for many reasons...I'll give you one because I find me actually writing this pointless...(I crack myself up). People want to know more than ever on what to believe and not to. Especially when they are parting with their money in order to learn from a supposed credible source. I actually see it quite shocking that someone as active as you are in the WF not to see the significance in a thread like this...Oh well, can't please everyone now can ya..lol. Ciao my friend!
              I see the significance, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making was that, IMO, that's it's a waste of time to ponder it. Unless you can get a real-life look at the "guru's" books and know their operation intimately, you're really not going to know anyway.

              My income quadrupled when I stopped focusing my energies on what other people were claiming or doing (unless it was way to learn how to leverage assets) and focused on what I was doing, each and every day. That was the main point I was making.

              I can understand why these threads start, I'm just adding my 2 cents that I think they're a waste of time. And I agree with you, you can't please everyone all of the time, and do so is folly. That's what's great about this forum, you can voice your opinion and people can agree, disagree, or try and hit you up for the next Joint Venture.

              RoD
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              "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
              - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author ktlasm
    Well, I will admit...I've bought into a small number of the kind of thing we're talking about here...But, I was much younger and naive...I'm sure that it's not something any of you did now is it...LOL
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    I'm pretty cool if I say so myself...lol, and I know my stuff, folks. I'm 31 years old and I'm full, full, full time on the internet. No part timing around this way...I'm here because I simply enjoy spreading as much love & light as I possibly can. Check me out on facebook,& say Hi. http://www.facebook.com/kevingmadison or twitter http://www.twitter.com/kevinmadison

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  • Profile picture of the author VinceLaw
    Don't believe their hype!
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    There is an old saying in IM...'Fake it till you make it'.

    so do you think some gurus exaggerate?
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  • Profile picture of the author Adaptive
    Is the information outright faked? Then the advertising is fraudulent. In my opinion, best response is to throw the book at 'em.

    If the gross dollar amounts are accurate but not typical, then the ad might be in the letter of the law - but still misleading. Ethical mutual funds include both average returns and standard deviation, making it possible to build a risk-adjusted portfolio. I don't see any reason why some indication of typical range and outliers shouldn't be the norm in business opportunity advertising as well. Aren't we all trying to increase our portfolio of business activities for the best risk-adjusted return?

    If the gross amounts are accurate but the ad glosses over the expenses necessary, I believe that's also unethical. One of the things I appreciate about Gary Halbert's old newsletters, and the way his sons are continuing, is that there's an honest exposition of what the costs were for their projects, not just the revenues.

    And as several people have commented, it's also important to have some context: how long did it take the build up to those numbers? Was the person already a guru, who had the knowledge and infrastructure to best apply a new technique immediately?

    To me, putting this level of detail in a money-opportunity ad is the ethical standard.

    Regards,
    Allen
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    • Profile picture of the author ArtfulWebSites
      Originally Posted by Adaptive View Post

      Is the information outright faked? Then the advertising is fraudulent. In my opinion, best response is to throw the book at 'em.

      If the gross dollar amounts are accurate but not typical, then the ad might be in the letter of the law - but still misleading. Ethical mutual funds include both average returns and standard deviation, making it possible to build a risk-adjusted portfolio. I don't see any reason why some indication of typical range and outliers shouldn't be the norm in business opportunity advertising as well. Aren't we all trying to increase our portfolio of business activities for the best risk-adjusted return?

      If the gross amounts are accurate but the ad glosses over the expenses necessary, I believe that's also unethical. One of the things I appreciate about Gary Halbert's old newsletters, and the way his sons are continuing, is that there's an honest exposition of what the costs were for their projects, not just the revenues.

      And as several people have commented, it's also important to have some context: how long did it take the build up to those numbers? Was the person already a guru, who had the knowledge and infrastructure to best apply a new technique immediately?

      To me, putting this level of detail in a money-opportunity ad is the ethical standard.

      Regards,
      Allen
      Adaptive,

      I could not agree with you more!

      Thanks for restating my case a bit more clearly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    I think alot of gurus are reverse gurus. Most gurus will first suck you in with tales of how much money they have, how they dont work but 1 day a month, how they have all this extra time to watch their supermodel girlfriend polish their porsche outside their waterfront home. well actually that last part is just my fantasy..but you see where i'm coming from. You 'see' all that wealth and think 'if he can do it, i can too' and thats what the guru tells you as well.

    The part they seem to leave out is that their money will actually come afterwards. When you first see the offer, its probably a guy squeaking by living in a efficiency apartment and living on balogna and kool aid. But after he gets a couple thousand people to believe his tale of riches THEN he's got a lot of money.

    For instance, if you have ever read 'rich dad, poor dad'..and many have. The author never had a 'rich dad'. The author also didnt have any money when he wrote that book to tell you how he got his riches. Actually his wife had a fair amount of money because she sold real estate.

    but after a couple hundred thousand people were sucked in by his story, THEN he became the guy he was talking about in his books
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  • Profile picture of the author Adaptive
    The author never had a 'rich dad'.
    So Kiyosaki is just a yarn-spinner? I'd like to a reference about this one.

    Regards,
    Allen
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
      Originally Posted by Adaptive View Post

      So Kiyosaki is just a yarn-spinner? I'd like to a reference about this one.

      Regards,
      Allen
      Do a quick search on google for rich dad poor dad fake. There apparently were even people that went to the extreme of going through the people who lived in hawaii (where the book takes place) and havent found anyone that could possibly be 'rich dad'. I would guess that probably wouldn't be too hard to do for the amount of poeple in the 1950's. Someone with the kind of money rich dad was supposed to have would stick out on an island. Quite a few poeple say that he simply uses 'rich dad' as a literary device to tell the story.

      I personally liked the book, gave good info. But it just enforces the point that he, like every other 'guru' out there are salesman at their core. If he needs to tell you that selling you this book will feed his children, get ready for baby stories.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sylvan Noel
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Christian Chan
      They do. They don't give the exact net income on their sales letters (total sales - affiliate commissions - product costs - refunds - chargebacks).

      Originally Posted by Sylvan Noel View Post

      Most big nme gurus do not exaggerate their numbers, at lest to my knowledge. The best proof to believe is video proof, but some people don't like to do it for privacy reasons.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    I'm not sure what the point of this question is, but I'll tell you what I've seen first hand. When you're talking about income, the well known Internet marketers fall into 4 categories:

    1. Humble Dumpty - Those that make even more than they claim (or make a buttload and don't even mention it) and actually play DOWN their income to increase believability or just keep a lower profile. I know of 2 personally that have done this: F.K and C.M.

    2. The Braggarts - Those that do well enough but still exaggerate their income by not subtracting affiliate commissions, outsourcing, etc and just talk about gross dollars.

    3. The Roller Coasters - Those that live a life of feast or famine between launches. I've met guys that have had 6-figure launches in the past, that were sharing hotel rooms and begging meals at seminars while grumbling about not being paid affiliate commissions.

    4. The Coat Tailers - These guys know a lot of people and by association manage to build lists and get known, but they can't seem to get a product together and launch it. They're scraping by on well under $100k a year, attending seminars and having good time but never getting over the hump.
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  • Profile picture of the author iplusgold
    Yeah it really depends on the individual "guru". Some definitely do fake their earnings and I think alot of newbies also have the fake it till you make it mindset. Its funny how many times ive seen the same fake check scans on some different IM sites
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  • Profile picture of the author Adaptive
    Do a quick search on google for rich dad poor dad fake.
    Thanks, Michael.

    I think the series is useful for people stuck in a mental rut about money, to inspire them to the possibility of thinking in bigger, more empowering ways. It's short on specifics, but a few of the individual distinctions - such as the "cashflow quadrant" concept - have been useful for me.

    If Rich Dad was sold as fiction and better edited, I'd actually find it more compelling.

    Regards,
    Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author Adaptive
    Rod,
    I for one don't understand this thread one bit. I look at it this way: how does what someone else claims to earn have any bearing on focusing on my own business and my own profits?
    There are at least three really important reasons.

    First, if the claims are used to promote a product or service for sale, and the claims are false, that's outright fraud.

    Second, unrealistic claims may set up unrealistic expectations in people who then conclude they have to give up because they couldn't match the gurus' hype.

    Third, unrealistic claims may get clients of legitimate vendors to bypass products or services that could really be useful, though not nearly as spectacular as the made-up results.

    All three outcomes could hurt the expectations and reputations of good people who are sincere and honest.

    Regards,
    Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author ktlasm
    Love all the post...In deed a plethora of opinions one will definitely enjoy when they find this thread...Informative as well...Ciao!
    Signature

    I'm pretty cool if I say so myself...lol, and I know my stuff, folks. I'm 31 years old and I'm full, full, full time on the internet. No part timing around this way...I'm here because I simply enjoy spreading as much love & light as I possibly can. Check me out on facebook,& say Hi. http://www.facebook.com/kevingmadison or twitter http://www.twitter.com/kevinmadison

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