If you're looking for a mentor / business coach - Read This Now!

by Mark Andrews Banned
83 replies
We often see threads appearing...

...on this forum from various individuals from all backgrounds, all ages, all social backgrounds asking for someone to mentor them.

Now, a lot of these requests, it's clear you haven't got the faintest foggiest idea what it is you want to achieve.

For anyone to mentor you, you need to be very clear in advance what your precise objectives are. We need to know what your specific goal is.

It's no good just saying...

"I want to earn some decent good money online." This is far too generic. It's not telling us, the more experienced Internet marketers / business professionals on this forum anything about yourself.

We want to know who you are...

...where you're from...

...what your life experience is to date...

...things you've accomplished in the past...

...what your hobbies and past times are...

...how much money you're willing to put down on the table...

...what your precise goal is and a deadline for what you want to achieve by when given your own abilities and level of motivation.

If you cannot provide this information, you need to go away and really think about exactly what it is you want to do.

If you have no idea at all, no business mentor in the world can effectively move you from where you are now, experiencing emotional frustration and pain towards your personal ideal outcome (pleasure).

So grab a piece of paper and a pen and prepare your mind in advance being ruthlessly honest with yourself. Jot down the answers to the above questions. For example...

(My name is...)

(Age...)

(From...)

(Experience to date...)

(Previous accomplishments...)

(My hobbies, interests, and past times are...)

(How much I'm willing to invest in myself per month $???...)

(My precise goal is to...)

(I would like to achieve this goal by (insert date...))

(Why I want to do this... - on a scale 1/10 score your motivation...)


Now, no experienced business professional is going to give you of their knowledge, time, and expertise free of charge. If this is what you're looking for, forget it. Why?...

Because mentoring somebody else with no business experience is to say the least very time consuming. Holding you accountable for your own actions, prodding you, nudging you, encouraging you, helping you to set clear goals and making sure you follow through all takes lots of time not to mention the process at times can be rather mentally exhausting depending on the individual concerned.

In the time taken out to help you, this is time spent which we can never get back again. Yes, it's all very well and good telling us we should play help, advice or assistance forwards. Easy for you to say. Many of us do this often anyway. What we don't need is some wet behind the ears newbie telling us what we should be doing with our own very valuable time. Time which spent on you we could be spending in many more highly profitable ways to further boost our own business and financial interests.

No mentor worth their salt is going to offer to mentor you free of charge. You know as well as we do that if you want a new car...

...if you want the latest games console...

...the latest smart phone...

...whatever your heart desires, somehow you always find the means and the motivation to find the necessary cash upfront to get what you want for these material possessions.

Being in business for yourself is no joke. It's going to take time to build up your personal business model. It's going to take a lot of dedication and oodles of persistence and perseverance on your part. But a good mentor if you have these prerequisites in place and you're prepared to pull your thumb out of your ass and get things done, just maybe - there is some hope for you. But you must put your money where your mouth is - there's no getting around this simple fact.

For it's your new business, which with the professional help of your chosen mentor (who is going to help you to grow your new business, bottom line profits) by which means you can follow the lifestyle choice you desire.

You need to treat your idea to be in business for yourself like a business from the outset. If you're not prepared to invest financial capital in yourself - you simply cannot and will not be taken seriously.

Mentoring you see is an exchange of energy, as is money exchanged between a service provider (your mentor) and yourself. By exchanging hard cash for the goal you want to achieve within a certain time frame, you demonstrate your personal desire to fore go any temporary emotional pain for the pleasure you anticipate in the future.

Is this a price worth paying in advance? Only you the business 'student' can answer this question.

It's up to you to decide how much you're willing to put down on the table to acquire the skills which you're currently lacking, which your mentor through blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention, years often of countless hours put in (and many sleepless nights) has had to endure to acquire the knowledge and know how which you now so desperately need.

If you truly value what a business mentor can bring to the table on your behalf you need to appreciate their time and expertise.

As they say - money talks in this business.

How much do you respect yourself? That is the question.

Now, get back to the drawing board and do your homework.

Smoking hot,


Mark Andrews
#business #business coach #coach #coaching #mentor #read #teacher
  • Profile picture of the author MarketingMinded
    Great food for thought here.

    I think mentors are an invaluable resource and one of the key ingredients to success at anything.

    Why? Because they have the one thing you need but can't buy..... REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE

    A good mentor knows your strengths and weaknesses, and are able to see all your potential wins and losses before you can. They know what you need to do and what you shouldn't be doing. They can tell you about things you didn't even know you needed to know.

    In my opinion, mentors are a must. And from my experiences, mentors don't always want money so long as the know you are serious and will really hustle to achieve your goals. If they do though, it's really a small investment compared to the reward you get on the other side.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mousumi
    Thanks Mark!
    I'm going to follow this thread..Seriously
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    Well said Mark. Mentors come in all sizes and shapes and skill-sets as well. So newbies really need to focus on what they want to learn. It's impossible to learn everything so make a prioritised list of things you want to learn BEFORE even asking for help.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
    I'd also add that you should know what kind of business you want to start ("Internet marketing" is NOT a business!) and have an idea of what niche you're interested in. No mentor in the world can help you until you know what niche you want to pursue, although they CAN give you some general tips and advice for choosing a niche.

    But you need to know your niche before you can even start building a list. (Yes, I know some people start building a list before choosing a niche. BAD IDEA!) You need to have at least some idea of what niche you want to pursue so that 1) you know where to look for potential customers and 2) you can craft an enticing, appealing offer to build your list.

    I paid my mentor $9.5K this year alone and $3K in 2010 for a total of $12.5K for 2 years of coaching. It was worth every penny.

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  • Profile picture of the author joefizz
    Hi Mark,

    Thought evoking post!

    I am delighted to say...I am a mentor and I actually go through what you suggest.

    You will be quite surprised how few have (a) objectives and (b) have them written down!

    IMO, one of essential skills is a depth of experience that can be applied correctly and at the right time. Also, have a breadth of personal skills so that you get the very best out of your students.

    However, one thing life has taught me... it's the student that has to run the 100 metres and indeed train for it. I sometimes think that they want to miss the training and indeed skip the race...

    Llwyddiant!

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  • Profile picture of the author Mo Jogee
    Having a mentor or coach is like getting into a car and having someone who knows the directions to a destination where you had no clue before you got in!

    It gives you a sense of direction and can help you focus solely on your final goal without getting distracted by the other shiny things paraded around you. Before you find a mentor you definitely need to know which business model you would like your marketing to reflect. Once you find the answer then simply find a marketer who is applying that model to his/hers business. Get on to their list and see how to get down their funnel to their back-end coaching/Mentor offer or you could go to their blog and sign up in their coaching category, this is not the case with all marketers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
    Banned
    It would be interesting to see one or two newbies thoughts on this.

    If you've posted up a mentor request recently, as in within the last year or two, what do you think of the opening post and the subsequent comments posted after?

    Would you care to show your hand and give us your opinions please?

    Smoking hot,


    Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
    Hi Mark,

    I had posted asking for a mentor and you responded, linking me to this forum. Since you're also asking for what a newbie thinks about it, here goes:

    For anyone to mentor you, you need to be very clear in advance what your precise objectives are. We need to know what your specific goal is.

    It's no good just saying...

    "I want to earn some decent good money online." This is far too generic. It's not telling us, the more experienced Internet marketers / business professionals on this forum anything about yourself.

    We want to know who you are...
    This seems like good advice. I suppose I didn't want to seem overly needy or narcissistic - the whole beggars can't be choosers comes to mind. In reading this though, it seems painfully obvious that no mentor is going to be drawn to a blank face with no personality or specific plans. I suppose the same general marketing tactics should be applied to this request as to any other, and I hadn't handled it in that way. A call to action with no reason is, embarassingly, amateur. In short (though it's likely too late to say that) I found this tidbit helpful, in a Homer Simpson "Doh!" kind of way.

    Now, no experienced business professional is going to give you of their knowledge, time, and expertise free of charge. If this is what you're looking for, forget it. Why?...
    This one, however, raised my cackles. I absolutely don't think you are correct in your statement here. I believe there are people who have achieved success who are willing to "pay it forward" in helping out someone currently in a position they were once in. You're probably right in that they are in the minority, but to say they don't exist is a fact I won't accept at this time. It could be I am overly optimistic about people's generosity; time will tell.

    With a million paid offers for e-books and coaching, sorting through them to find the true diamond in the rough is exhausting. Not to mention, most people starting out don't have the budget to test which are worth it. The bottom line is, there are a lot of brilliant marketers more interested in selling easily, mass-produced crap than genuinely providing benefit.

    Saying "expect to pay for advice or help" simply screams, "oh, someone else that wants me to buy their e-book or e-seminar or whatever". It's not a matter of being unwilling to invest in myself, it's a matter of wading through the miles of disgusting filth to find that investment rather than throwing money away.

    Yes, it's all very well and good telling us we should play help, advice or assistance forwards. Easy for you to say. Many of us do this often anyway. What we don't need is some wet behind the ears newbie telling us what we should be doing with our own very valuable time. Time which spent on you we could be spending in many more highly profitable ways to further boost our own business and financial interests.
    In all honesty, this just sounded bitter, jaded and, well, mean.

    Yes, my response to this is essentially "You're a big meaniehead".

    How much do you respect yourself? That is the question.
    I respect myself enough to recognize when to ask for help, to invest in myself and accept a certain amount of risk in investments, and mostly, enough to not let a cheap tactic convince me to fork over money by saying "if you cared about yourself, you'd pay us." That is the answer.

    Now, I'm not saying that no mentor is worth paying. In fact, I'm sure it's a useful investment under the right circumstances. However, I certainly don't have $11k to do so, as the other poster mentioned. After all, this was about newbies.

    While I'm not naive enough to think an experienced mentor is going to hold my hand all day and night, walk me through each trench and spoon feed me copy, all for free, I am hopeful that some successful people are willing to spend a few hours a week engaged in some skype conversation to help out someone just starting.

    I apologize this ended up so long.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashp0wer
      Mentors are great for people, especially if they are completely new to this business. I was lucky to have a great mentor that helped me out every step of the way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        Originally Posted by joefizz View Post

        I sometimes think that they want to miss the training and indeed skip the race...
        The ones that get my goat are not the ones who want to skip the race, but the ones who want me to run it for them.

        Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

        This one, however, raised my cackles. I absolutely don't think you are correct in your statement here. I believe there are people who have achieved success who are willing to "pay it forward" in helping out someone currently in a position they were once in. You're probably right in that they are in the minority, but to say they don't exist is a fact I won't accept at this time. It could be I am overly optimistic about people's generosity; time will tell.

        While I'm not naive enough to think an experienced mentor is going to hold my hand all day and night, walk me through each trench and spoon feed me copy, all for free, I am hopeful that some successful people are willing to spend a few hours a week engaged in some skype conversation to help out someone just starting.
        I think you are taking Mark more harshly than he meant it. There is a vast difference between giving someone some advice or trying to help them find their way and the type of mentoring Mark is referring to. He's talking about what those outside IM probably call coaching. The coach would commit to you for some one-on-one time and guidance for a certain period of time. Just as with coaches outside of IM, this is not going to happen for free.

        As to saying someone would be willing to give you a few hours per week, well, honestly, good luck with that. Almost everyone here would be willing to have conversations and help you, but several hours per week is rather expecting a lot, wouldn't you say? That time has to come from somewhere so the mentor would be either taking time away from their business or away from their family.

        I have seen Mark spend time helping a lot of people through the years. He has given me some fantastic advice in the past. The difference between that and being a mentor to the degree you describe is quite significant. If that is what you are looking for, I truly believe you are destined for disappointment.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
          As to saying someone would be willing to give you a few hours per week, well, honestly, good luck with that. Almost everyone here would be willing to have conversations and help you, but several hours per week is rather expecting a lot, wouldn't you say? That time has to come from somewhere so the mentor would be either taking time away from their business or away from their family.
          I'm going to take this as a challenge.

          The mission: Find someone who has achieved that for which I am aiming and is willing to spend roughly 20 minutes a day on skype talking with me.

          This message will self desctruct in 30 ... 29 ... 28 ...

          All kidding aside, could be you're all right and I will not find that which I am seeking. Could be there are no successful people who find a sense of personal satisfaction in helping others achieve goals and for no direct monetary benefit.

          Could be I am not smart, hard working or witty enough for anyone to want to talk with me about these things without being paid for it.

          Could be I'll return to this forum, tail tucked between my legs, admitting defeat and crying on my keyboard.

          I'd rather try and be defeated though than not to try at all or to throw money at what may likely be worthless hype.
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          • Profile picture of the author ChoincStar
            [QUOTE=Bellerine;7349476] "I'm going to take this as a challenge.

            The mission: Find someone who has achieved that for which I am aiming and is willing to spend roughly 20 minutes a day on skype talking with me.

            This message will self desctruct in 30 ... 29 ... 28 ..."

            I think this is the best idea on this page. Begin reaching out to people, people that you wouldn't even expect to be able to contact. Experts. make sure that you know what you want to ask them and be clever about it. Impress them with your tenacity. You might be surprised at the people willing to help. If you've read anything by Tim Ferriss he is a big proponent of reaching out to "experts in the field". That was a big part of what made him successful.

            At the very least you'll grow your communication skills, get better at putting yourself in uncomfortable situations, learn how to "sell yourself", and most likely learn some helpful things from some successful people.
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            • Profile picture of the author TheEye
              People will coach and mentor you for free but you have to finish the following sentence.

              You should mentor me for free because ...

              When the person hears the reason, it should appear obvious and irrefutable.

              This can be done in two ways.

              The first is to research the person you want to mentor you. Find out what is more important to them than money. Some times it is as little as receiving a smile or making a new friend.

              The second way is to use the sentence as a net. Spread it out as widely as you can and see who gets caught up in it. This post is a classic example. A number of people have responded that they have mentored people in the past and will not do it again.

              You now know who they are, all you have to do is persuade them to change their minds.
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              • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
                An Update:

                As a result of both the advice in this thread (there are some shiny gems) and the people that reached out to me as a result of it, I've expanded my circle to include some fantastic, talented, kind, wise people. I wouldn't say I have a mentor as yet but, as such a relationship takes time to build, I am several steps closer and remain optimistic.

                I also listened to the suggestions of using my writing skills, combined it with some tips from new friends, and have begun working as a freelance writer and sold some PLR. The feedback has been great! I'm even making some nice extra income!

                All in all, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread - even those whose opinions run contrary were helpful.

                For those reading who are still looking for a mentor, don't be dissuaded! Follow the advice here. If you're willing to put in the work and commit to yourself, others will be willing to help! (myself included if there's anything a fellow newbie can share!)
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    • Profile picture of the author WarrenPeterson
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      ... I am hopeful that some successful people are willing to spend a few hours a week engaged in some skype conversation to help out someone just starting...
      A few hours a week? Do you expect this from other professions as well? Why would a mentor in this industry be any different?

      Spend those few hours per week here reading, join the War Room (if you are not already), and ask specific questions. You will find plenty of help here from all sorts of posters, but if you want hours of help every week for free, your best bet would be to start at a local chapter of an organization like SCORE.
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      • Profile picture of the author PinkOwl
        Originally Posted by WarrenPeterson View Post

        A few hours a week? Do you expect this from other professions as well? Why would a mentor in this industry be any different?

        Spend those few hours per week here reading, join the War Room (if you are not already), and ask specific questions. You will find plenty of help here from all sorts of posters, but if you want hours of help every week for free, your best bet would be to start at a local chapter of an organization like SCORE.
        Warren,

        As one who has spent the majority of my career supporting executives, I can say that yes indeed they do mentor others free of charge. I am not saying the mentor gives an entire college course, but they spend quality time helping others or even just one other person learn the ins and outs of their field. You would be amazed at what a person can learn in just 2-4 hours per week.

        I, like Bellerine, would like to believe there are those out there who are willing to pay it forward and share their knowledge with others who want to learn. We are not asking for the moon and stars, but a few hours of time. Giving of one's time can be just as rewarding for the person giving as it can be for the one receiving.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      Hi Mark,
      This one, however, raised my cackles. I absolutely don't think you are correct in your statement here. I believe there are people who have achieved success who are willing to "pay it forward" in helping out someone currently in a position they were once in. You're probably right in that they are in the minority, but to say they don't exist is a fact I won't accept at this time. It could be I am overly optimistic about people's generosity; time will tell.
      Actually I have seen a thread where Mark offered to do this and I have done the same with a few people on my list. The whole pay it forward thing is great and all, BUT the people in the business of helping and mentoring have families, business to run and in some cases job to get to. Not to mention that helping a newbie out from square one is not an easy task, and to expect that from anyone is madness.
      This forum is filled with the "Pay it forward" mentality. You can learn all you need to get a booming business going for free on this forum without asking some else to take time out of their lives to help you on a daily or weekly basis. So I guess suggesting that people share their time, experience, and in most cases expensive knowledge for free is madness.
      I used to feel that way and then I found out about value and any information that could lead to you eventually staying home, and is all wrapped up in a nice package and tailor made to your goals has massive value.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
        Originally Posted by bilkat19 View Post

        Actually I have seen a thread where Mark offered to do this and I have done the same with a few people on my list. The whole pay it forward thing is great and all, BUT the people in the business of helping and mentoring have families, business to run and in some cases job to get to. Not to mention that helping a newbie out from square one is not an easy task, and to expect that from anyone is madness.
        This forum is filled with the "Pay it forward" mentality. You can learn all you need to get a booming business going for free on this forum without asking some else to take time out of their lives to help you on a daily or weekly basis. So I guess suggesting that people share their time, experience, and in most cases expensive knowledge for free is madness.
        I used to feel that way and then I found out about value and any information that could lead to you eventually staying home, and is all wrapped up in a nice package and tailor made to your goals has massive value.
        If I'm reading this logic right, we shouldn't throw garbage into receptacles,but rather onto the ground, otherwise we're taking work away from those who are paid to clean the streets. Eating vegetables is wrong because it hurts those in the junk food business. Donating to the ASPCA is ridiculous because there are pet store owners trying to make a profit. I'm pretty sure THAT'S madness.

        To imply that to ever do something for the betterment of another person or community for no profit is "madness" and that it serves to devalue those who make a living from it is absurdity. Furthermore, it seems a rather blatant way to rationalize being selfish and maybe even greedy.

        The proof is in the pudding. The bottom line is that there are people willing to help another.

        It is sad that some who have tried have had a negative experience and given up, but it would be devastating if humanity got to the point where it, as a whole, shared such a bitter, narcissistic view. Thank goodness we haven't fallen so low.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
          Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

          If I'm reading this logic right
          Obviously you are not reading it right :rolleyes: Go back re-read the first sentence then see if your reply had anything at all to do with what I said. Very nice rant but way off base.

          ***I state very clearly that I help others and have seen Mark do the same*** I have been a fan of giving back and do it in all areas of my life

          The point you missed was that to run around asking for it is insanity. For me to offer someone who has been trying and trying is a different story. There is value in what I know and what others know and to say that people should be willing to just give it away to people who ask for it is insane.

          People are starting the same thread all the time ask for help. This forum contains enough info to get started. If I see someone asking a good question that is designed to move them forward. I will answer it to the best of my ability, at times I will research it for them.

          I am not willing to run around the forum giving free coaching sessions away. I have a very active list and they will tell you that I bend over backwards to help them with anything they ask. If we stick with your logic I shouldn't charge and make money for what I have spent good money to learn Madness
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          • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
            When one writes excessively large and especially when one writes in excessively large AND bold type with tons of special characters,
            ****I feel like I'm being yelled at!****
            and it's quite off-putting.

            At any rate, I didn't miss your points. Though you may believe you are helpful in many areas, you state that doing so freely serves to devalue those who get paid to help and that asking for help is madness. Read you loud and clear and stand by my response
            .

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            • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
              Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post


              ... you state that doing so freely serves to devalue those who get paid to help ...
              I just re-read his two posts twice more to see where you get this and it's simply NOT in his posts.

              Bellerine, I can tell that you are a very intelligent, well-spoken person but you show a tendency to read attitudes and negative comments into people's words that are just not there. You've done that over and over in this thread.

              Maybe it's time to take a wee step back and think about that for a few minutes. If you could train yourself to stop coloring the comments made by your own defensiveness (for lack of a better word), you would be doing yourself a favor.

              The consistent assumption of negative connotations on everything people respond with is just as off-putting. That could be hindering you in your search for mentors here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
    A few hours a week? Do you expect this from other professions as well? Why would a mentor in this industry be any different?
    I get that you guys think this is a ridiculous thing to hope to find. Actually though, WarrenPeterson, yes, I have found such relationships in other industries in the past. I forged these relationships with experts in the field of Human Resources.

    So, I appreciate you all taking your time to tell me I will fail and be disappointed, but, you took the time. I DO think I will find someone who will take even more time in a positive manner.

    I promise, if I do fail, I will return and admit my defeat in a dazzling display of humble-pie-eating, crying posting. You can then revel in your satisfied smile, knowing you were right.

    As an aside, such relationships have a way of paying out monetarily in the end, even when they are not directly compensated.

    Spend those few hours per week here reading, join the War Room (if you are not already), and ask specific questions.
    I am, and I do. I don't think spending time reading and seeking a mentor are mutually exclusive. In fact, some of the better advice I've received has been to seek out people myself, that specifically appeal to my personality, business and goals rather than blasting a a generic message. Seems these things would go hand in hand then, really.

    I do appreciate the feedback, in whatever form it takes. Challenge fuels me as much as anything else.
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    • Profile picture of the author WarrenPeterson
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      ..So, I appreciate you all taking your time to tell me I will fail and be disappointed, but, you took the time. I DO think I will find someone who will take even more time in a positive manner.

      I promise, if I do fail, I will return and admit my defeat in a dazzling display of humble-pie-eating, crying posting. You can then revel in your satisfied smile, knowing you were right.
      Wow, who ever said you were going to fail at anything or be disappointed?

      I hope you have success beyond your wildest dreams. The fact that I don't think it is realistic to expect a professional mentor to give you hours of time every week has nothing to do with expectations of success or disappointment.
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    I have mentored, coached, or whatever term you want to use, several people. Most for a fee but several have been free. I hope it is just my experience but those that were free were the ones that were constantly wanting to know things they could just as easily found on Google or a quick search here.

    I have no desire to do open consulting ever again. There is just too much involved that is unknown. Not for a fee or free.

    I have found it much better on my nerves and more beneficial to those receiving the information to offer a specific business model with exact tactics already laid out. If that business model is something the potential client is interested in we can go forward a lot faster.

    With this method I can offer an exact case study I Have fully tested and know exactly how it worked for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
    Wow, who ever said you were going to fail at anything or be disappointed?
    I was told I was bound for disappointment and well, didn't you just say you thought it was unrealistic to expect success? I didn't mean to imply I thought people were saying I would fail ... at life. Rather, fail at finding a successful person that would spend some time with me.

    Also, I'm not talking about someone that makes their living being a coach. I agree that it would be highly unlikely for them give their services for free. I mean to find someone that has been down the path I am currently set upon and navigated it successfully.

    Really this started because I was directed to this thread. I'd like to note that the OP ASKED for a newbie's thoughts, so I expressed mine.

    I am still optimistic.

    Signed,
    Glass perpetually half full ...


    ... of margaritas
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Newbies will be newbies. They have no idea of what to do, what to ask, so they put up the more general statement to see responses from people - and once they see all of the responses, an ephipany hits them and they know the kind of questions that they need to be asking.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      Could be there are no successful people who find a sense of personal satisfaction in helping others achieve goals and for no direct monetary benefit.

      Could be I am not smart, hard working or witty enough for anyone to want to talk with me about these things without being paid for it.

      Could be I'll return to this forum, tail tucked between my legs, admitting defeat and crying on my keyboard.

      I'd rather try and be defeated though than not to try at all or to throw money at what may likely be worthless hype.
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      So, I appreciate you all taking your time to tell me I will fail and be disappointed, but, you took the time. I DO think I will find someone who will take even more time in a positive manner.

      I promise, if I do fail, I will return and admit my defeat in a dazzling display of humble-pie-eating, crying posting. You can then revel in your satisfied smile, knowing you were right.
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      I was told I was bound for disappointment and well, didn't you just say you thought it was unrealistic to expect success? I didn't mean to imply I thought people were saying I would fail ... at life. Rather, fail at finding a successful person that would spend some time with me.

      Also, I'm not talking about someone that makes their living being a coach. I agree that it would be highly unlikely for them give their services for free. I mean to find someone that has been down the path I am currently set upon and navigated it successfully.

      Really this started because I was directed to this thread. I'd like to note that the OP ASKED for a newbie's thoughts, so I expressed mine.
      Bellerine,

      Please don't take this the wrong way because I mean it in the best possible way, okay? Here goes...

      For someone who signs themselves as eternally optimistic, the snippets above seem dead set on taking the advice given here in a very negative light. I don't think anyone here would relish seeing you fail in any way, shape or form; I know that I wouldn't.

      I, for one, have spent a lot of time through the years in trying to help those just starting out in their own business. I've done this through forums, PMs, emails, Skype and on phone calls. I enjoy helping others find their paths in whatever small way I can help. I know for a fact that at least two others in this thread have done the same, because they both have done it for me when I was just starting out.

      The problem we're having with what you've been saying is that it sounds like you are looking for a commitment to be made to you, and ongoing mentoring provided. You may find this. No one has said you won't.

      We're just trying to make you realize that it's a very rare event that someone will be able to do this. It's not that we don't want to, either. I would love to be able to do this for someone. However, as I said above, this time must come from somewhere, either shaved from our own businesses or from our personal/family time.

      What I would recommend to anyone just starting out and either doesn't have the funds to hire a professional or isn't ready to, is to do what I did. I never had a paid coach (that's what a mentor is, in the context of this thread).

      Instead, I read thread after thread on this forum. I checked out people's sites and products - not to buy, at first, but to see that they were genuine. No point in getting advice from someone who's faking their way, right?

      Then I asked questions of the people I knew had real experience and expertise. I asked in discussion threads. I befriended people on Facebook and Twitter. I started getting to know people through live chats and in Skype rooms.

      I've had mentoring from some of the top names in the forum, even if they don't realize it. Most of them wouldn't think of themselves as mentors; many don't offer coaching of any kind.

      Anyway, Bellerine, please take the advice as it's stated. If you have any questions that I can help you with, my Skype is over under my name to the left or you can PM me through the forum. I can't promise mentoring on an ongoing basis, even if you would want it from me, but I can promise to answer your questions to the best of my ability as I have time.

      Good luck to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
    I never had a paid coach (that's what a mentor is, in the context of this thread).
    This, I think, is the basic misunderstanding, and it may be mine. My original post seeking a mentor (that led me to this thread) was for just that, a mentor. Not a paid coach. Not someone that makes a living as a paid coach.

    I have been lucky enough in the past to have had a few people who were willing to act as mentors to me. By this I mean that we developed a relationship where I respected their expertise and they grew to have a vested interest in my success - not because they stood to gain monetarily from it, but because they found their own fulfillment from it. It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.

    For someone who signs themselves as eternally optimistic, the snippets above seem dead set on taking the advice given here in a very negative light.
    I didn't post to troll or be trolled, the OP asked for feedback. When I gave mine, yes, I did feel somewhat attacked. Maybe it's a negative trait to fight when feeling attacked, maybe it's what will make me succeed. Whether you find the fight response pessimistic or optimistic is your opinion. I consider myself optimistic, about my ability to succeed in whatever I choose anyway.
    The problem we're having with what you've been saying is that it sounds like you are looking for a commitment to be made to you, and ongoing mentoring provided. You may find this. No one has said you won't.
    Except that people did say I wouldn't. You included; "I truly believe you are destined for disappointment."
    Maybe you only meant to be genuinely helpful. If that's the case, I apologize if you found my response harsh. Still, I stand by my response of taking your post as a challenge.

    I do, though, feel anger behind many of the posts in a "How dare you ask such a thing!", superior sort of way. Being new to a field does not equate stupidity, yet that seems to a general kind of theme with many of the older, successful members posts on these forums and elsewhere. Inexperience is only that, not a lack of general intelligence or work ethic.

    Instead, I read thread after thread on this forum. I checked out people's sites and products - not to buy, at first, but to see that they were genuine. No point in getting advice from someone who's faking their way, right?

    Then I asked questions of the people I knew had real experience and expertise. I asked in discussion threads. I befriended people on Facebook and Twitter. I started getting to know people through live chats and in Skype rooms.
    This is what I've been doing, and hoping to really click with one. Thanks.

    If you have any questions that I can help you with, my Skype is over under my name to the left or you can PM me through the forum. I can't promise mentoring on an ongoing basis, even if you would want it from me, but I can promise to answer your questions to the best of my ability as I have time.
    Thanks for this as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
      For those who are starting out, have determination and no money, this is what I did when I started...

      I bumped into IM from my local web design company when one client told me he wanted his site optimized to be on first page of Google. I had no clue whatsoever about how to achieve that.

      So I looked and researched, lurked here a lot, and found the information I needed to get started. Did the design job and insite SEO, and the client asked me to give maintenance to the site.

      So I looked for the information... and I got a mentor, sort of.

      What I did was to contact one guy who was selling a very interesting product, did a document for him as a present with the info of a webinar he gave. I couldn´t afford the product (it was over 2K), so I offered something else, I offered to manage campaigns for him for free; to become his outsourser for free.

      He is a very clever guy and didn´t bite - it is kind of dangerous to give your money making niches and hands on system to someone you don´t know. Instead, he offered me to do those reports to all his products and he gave me access to everything for free instead (all high ticket products). That was not what I wanted, I was divorcing and needed to work (someone ever used the word desperate? that was me).

      He ended up giving me a job writing first and doing management later.I learned the inside out of the business because of him. Most times than not I choose not to use that knowledge, but it is there.That guy is Howie Schwartz and he helped me when I needed it the most. I will always be thankful for it.

      The tale comes to this, for those who are starting out:

      You will find guidance if you have something to offer in exchange. This is a business, not charity. You are here to make money, the other people too. So use your imagination and find what you can offer that worth your future mentor´s time. Don´t ask in the air, target someone. Research the person, find out how you can help him/her and how the other person can help you, then contact him/her with a business offer.

      Hope it helps,
      Sandra
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      • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
        Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

        This, I think, is the basic misunderstanding, and it may be mine. My original post seeking a mentor (that led me to this thread) was for just that, a mentor. Not a paid coach. Not someone that makes a living as a paid coach.

        I have been lucky enough in the past to have had a few people who were willing to act as mentors to me. By this I mean that we developed a relationship where I respected their expertise and they grew to have a vested interest in my success - not because they stood to gain monetarily from it, but because they found their own fulfillment from it. It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.
        This was just a basic miscommunication and I totally understand. I view a mentor just as you do, as that's what the traditional meaning is. On this forum, at least, most people equate mentor with coach and that's where the problem lies. Jargon can be a beast of a thing.

        You also should know that while you may mean it one way, unfortunately there are many who come in here with a completely different attitude. Those people are the ones who have made many of us very wary of those looking for mentors.

        Sadly, as you will soon see, the IM arena attracts many with the entitlement mentality who call the rest of us names if we are not willing to coach them - and they're looking for coaches, not mentors.

        With your obvious intelligence and determination, I have no doubt at all that you will find a mentor - most likely, several.
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        • Profile picture of the author eric w
          It's not just about you looking in the mirror and answering questions about yourself. You need to have a list of questions for the potential mentor, such as:

          What strategies are you using to make money now?

          How long have you been making money on the internet?

          Do you have successful students? Can I contact them?

          You see, you can answer questions all day long to qualify yourself, but more importantly, you need to qualify the mentor. There are plenty of people who will take your money for mentoring, yet are not qualified for YOU. There are people in this very forum selling wsos about how to make money mentoring/coaching.

          Do you want someone mentoring you that just bought a wso teaching how to mentor, yet he/she doesn't make any money from the strategies they're teaching?

          I'm not saying it can't be done, but is this the best way?

          Make sure you qualify the mentor.

          eric w
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    • Profile picture of the author WarrenPeterson
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      ...

      I didn't post to troll or be trolled, the OP asked for feedback. When I gave mine, yes, I did feel somewhat attacked. Maybe it's a negative trait to fight when feeling attacked, maybe it's what will make me succeed. Whether you find the fight response pessimistic or optimistic is your opinion. I consider myself optimistic, about my ability to succeed in whatever I choose anyway.

      ...

      I do, though, feel anger behind many of the posts in a "How dare you ask such a thing!", superior sort of way. Being new to a field does not equate stupidity, yet that seems to a general kind of theme with many of the older, successful members posts on these forums and elsewhere. Inexperience is only that, not a lack of general intelligence or work ethic.

      ...
      I honestly hope you have lots of success and find wonderful relationships, but you need to scale back here. Attack, anger, stupidity; you have added elements to this thread that are not here. No one attacked you, no one questioned your intelligence, your work ethic, there is no anger in this thread, and so on. Don't assign additional meaning to simple text words from strangers....

      This is even more important if you are going to be spending time chatting on Skype with folks. IM and text are far too easy to read into.

      I've seen more people add this additional layer of intent to conversations than I could count, it is one of the serious negative sides of our IM/Text based communication these days.

      I do hope you find exactly what you are looking for, and have a really great career that grows out it. Have a great weekend!
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  • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
    @WarrenPeterson - I appreciate your wishes and hopes for my success and will certainly take into account the caution regarding assigning additional meaning to simple text.

    However,
    I don't think it is realistic to expect a professional mentor to give you hours of time every week
    and
    A few hours a week? Do you expect this from other professions as well? Why would a mentor in this industry be any different?
    do both convey an expectation of failure and an insinuation that I must be stupid to seek such a thing. While my initial response reiterated that I had, in fact, found just such mentors in another field and that I was not seeking someone who did this as a profession, that was not responded to.

    It seems, as Ms. Golden has pointed out, that "mentor" is not used in it's traditional meaning on these forums, but has rather come to be defined as a professional coach. This is not what I am seeking, nor is it what I responded to. I seek a mentor in the actual sense of the word.

    I do, though, feel anger behind many of the posts in a "How dare you ask such a thing!", superior sort of way. Being new to a field does not equate stupidity, yet that seems to a general kind of theme with many of the older, successful members posts on these forums and elsewhere. Inexperience is only that, not a lack of general intelligence or work ethic.
    I absolutely stand by this. Note though please, that I directed it at forums in general and not this specific thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author WarrenPeterson
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      ...However, and do both convey an expectation of failure and an insinuation that I must be stupid to seek such a thing. ...
      This is exactly my point. Neither of those quotes of mine conveyed an expectation of failure nor an insinuation of stupidity to ask. You assigned that meaning. I meant exactly the words I said, nothing more, nothing less.

      Adding that extra layer is why threads get confused so often, here on Warrior Forum, and pretty much all other forms of text-based communication. It seems like every third thread on FB (outside of the funny cat pictures) gets out of control by the second post. Actually, some of the funny cat pictures can go there as well.

      I help people all day long, not so much here as I'm still new to this forum myself, but on my FB page, my site, via Skype, on the phone, etc... and one thing is consistent through all of them. The misunderstandings and misinterpretations in text-based communication dwarf all others combined, and I think that is a big chunk of this thread as well.

      If you're just looking for someone to help now and then or to talk to and answer questions, you'll find that all day long. I spent about an hour just answering FB questions in one post earlier. You're welcome to PM me your questions as well, and if I can help you, I would be happy to.

      Off to some family time now, again... Have a great weekend!
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  • Profile picture of the author TomYevsikov
    This is exactly why most mentors require us to fill in a form about ourselves, nothing new here
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  • Profile picture of the author TylerRWS
    If I may stray slightly from the topic of discussion...

    Bellerine, might I make one suggestion to you (albeit I am no guru, nor "successful" marketer in any way, shape or form)? Actually, it is more of a general question.

    Have you ever considered creating a writing service?

    Your writing is so elegant and flows so smoothly. I found myself reading this entire thread, not for the information contained within, but for the sheer pleasure of reading your writing. You have an exceptional gift.

    They say focus on your strengths...

    And I will not hesitate to acknowledge that your writing is most obviously one of your strengths!

    Just something for you to mull over.

    Sincerely,

    Tyler
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    • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
      Originally Posted by TylerRWS View Post

      If I may stray slightly from the topic of discussion...

      Bellerine, might I make one suggestion to you (albeit I am no guru, nor "successful" marketer in any way, shape or form)? Actually, it is more of a general question.

      Have you ever considered creating a writing service?

      Your writing is so elegant and flows so smoothly. I found myself reading this entire thread, not for the information contained within, but for the sheer pleasure of reading your writing. You have an exceptional gift.

      They say focus on your strengths...

      And I will not hesitate to acknowledge that your writing is most obviously one of your strengths!

      Just something for you to mull over.

      Sincerely,

      Tyler
      Thanks for this, Tyler! I really appreciate your taking the time to post something so positive amidst this messy thread.

      I've always enjoyed writing and it certainly aids me in all sorts of ventures. Aside from some Fiverr gigs though, I've not focused on writing as an actual business. I will, though, give it some thought. Thanks again.

      To the other IM newbies reading this thread:

      Don't let the responses get you down.

      It is understandable that people who have already paid their dues, waded through these muddy waters in a fog of misunderstanding alone to finally come out the other side, may be a bit resentful of those of seeking a beacon of light for direction. Particularly true for those who have tried to be helpful and been burned.

      However, there ARE people willing to help. There ARE gems to be found in this thread.

      As per some posts here, I've more clearly defined what it is I'm looking for as well as what I'm willing to do to achieve my goals and thus have been better able to search for a mentor.

      Though noone has spoken to me through these forums, reading successful people's blogs has led me to some promising connections. I simply reached out to those with the expertise I am looking to attain and whose attitude and style seemed likely to mesh with my own.

      They did not all respond, but many did. I still don't have a mentor as yet, but that is a relationship that isn't built overnight. I remain optimistic.

      Best of luck to you all!
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  • Profile picture of the author johndetlefs
    This is not a reflection on the posters here, but Warren, you are spot on around text based communication... and even more exciting when you add in the mixing pot of cultures that come to the WF was well.

    Bellerine, just out of curiosity, how did you get the mentors that you did get in HR? I'm assuming that you approached them in some way?
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    • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
      Originally Posted by johndetlefs View Post

      This is not a reflection on the posters here, but Warren, you are spot on around text based communication... and even more exciting when you add in the mixing pot of cultures that come to the WF was well.

      Bellerine, just out of curiosity, how did you get the mentors that you did get in HR? I'm assuming that you approached them in some way?
      Hi John,

      In response to your question, the first mentor I found was my boss. She hired me for a position I wasn't quite qualified for. She liked and believed in me, maybe more than I did at the time. She by no means spoon fed me; rather she gave me access to some tools I didn't know were available and tasked me with growing responsibilities. She ecouraged me when I balked, not with cliches or overused quotes, but by telling me I COULD do it and there was no more discusssion about it.

      This HR position was more of an ombudsman role and led me to be involved with PR. I sat on a number of committees and one gentleman stood out to me. We got on very well and he had an impressive, proven track record and wealth of knowledge while being approachable. I worked with him on several projects, just because our respective positions demanded it. Through these I was able to develop enough of a rapport to ask him to lunch; things progressed from there.

      It has been difficult for me to transition my real world networking experience into the virtual world. I am trying, but advice is appreciated.
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  • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
    I found my mentor in 2007, Jay Kubassek with PROU, to this date, he is not only my mentor but one of my friends. I have been full time with IM because of him and PROU.
    Now I mentor people who want to learn Offline Marketing to business owners.
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  • Profile picture of the author 247acheiver
    In my opinion you can't go wrong with Scott Epp and Abundance Coaching...incredible high energy guy with a huge heart. Highly recommend for business or life coaching.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

      This one, however, raised my cackles. I absolutely don't think you are correct in your statement here. I believe there are people who have achieved success who are willing to "pay it forward" in helping out someone currently in a position they were once in.
      I like your spunk and your confidence. I think you'll do well.

      Let me relate one of my experiences in mentoring someone for free. I did it because they were in a tight spot financially. They started off very attentive and enthusiastic. However, the more they realized how much work it took, the more they started slacking off. A month later when they found a real world job they quit. I spent all that time trying to help them do something they weren't really interested in doing.

      It's a well-established premise that people don't value what they get for free nearly as much as what they have to earn or pay for. So you see, payment brings with it more commitment. And that payment doesn't have to be money, it could be time spent doing tasks for the mentor. Time is also an investment.

      When a mentor invests their time in someone they want to see them succeed. Otherwise it's a waste of time, and there's no way to ever get that back. So if someone won't make some kind of commitment, be it monetarily or through some other means such as providing a service, then in many cases it can be reasonably assumed they haven't yet made a real commitment to themselves to succeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author troy23
    It's very simple.
    Pay on results.
    Russell Brunson does it this why so why not others?
    Sadly few if any will accept a pay on results client.
    I wonder why....
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  • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
    That "coaching" stuff (in business, I mean) is for the birds. Most people who sell coaching are people who have never achieved anything in business...they only sell coaching, giving out theoretical advice to the person they're coaching. So I don't see why a person would feel the need to hire a coach anyways.

    No one who has achieve great business success is going to offer coaching as a product. Those types of people usually find young entrepreneurs who have the right mindset and take them under their wing without asking for money. That's usually how you know a coach is BS, when they offer coaching as a product.
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  • Profile picture of the author gazmit
    Good Varied Comments, as a newbie can I just say I have a mentor to teach me the ropes. He was not my first choice but a chap who I was comfortable with and felt that he had the time to train and guide me through the learning. I had contact with two prior and they were very pushy and up front in getting me to join. (oh and to take money i did not have) That is not what I wanted.
    So in my experience (none in marketing), is a mentor is very valuable but be careful and select one you will get on with.
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  • Profile picture of the author IMWarlock
    I tend to agree with someone who mentioned here that those who sell coaching programs make money out of them but never actually made a fortune from IM using those very methods they teach. They do tend to know subject in theory, but not enough to make 5-6 figures. And those who do, usually don't share their methods. Of course, I'm not saying that it's 100% true, but it is still a common thing. Most of the coaching programs full of up-sells because those are "necessary" things to make the "system" work. And in the they keep ripping off broke newbie. That was my experience and not once... That's with these coaching programs.

    Another thing I've experienced is when you pay for 1-on-1 coaching: Basically what it ends is that you pay $300 or more for that "mentoring" and when they get money they tend to act completely differently then before payment as they got the money and won't bother to refund you since they "already gave you their knowledge and spent time with you" which was crappy quality, a lot of unaswered questions and stuff like that.

    So my point is that even if you know what exactly you want to be taught, it is still hard to find good and friendly mentor even paid one. And I never came across free ones who would be willing to help to even most dedicated people. I came across WF members who are actually were very helpful in answering particular questions which I very grateful for, but to find 1 on 1 mentor who would do that consistently is hard taken in to consideration that person is newbie and broke but still willing to put the effort.

    Cheers!
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  • If you're looking for a mentor / business coach...
    If you're looking for a mentor / business coach... the first thing you should do is to ask him the following 2 questions:

    1) "If you know this business so well that you can coach me, why are you actually coaching me at X/hour when you could be making X*10/hour implementing your lessons onto your own business?"

    If the answer is "because I love teaching and helping others", run away in the other direction: that's a typical line from someone who's main -and possibly only- income comes from mentoring instead of running any actual business.

    2) "If you feel qualified to coach me to reach 6-figures in my business, can you show me proof that you run a 6-figure business yourself OUTSIDE the mentoring field?"

    If the answer is "it's not important how much I make, but how I can help you achieving your goals" or "I don't want to disclose my income" or something like that, then run away in the other direction because, again, that's someone who doesn't make a dime outside the mentoring field.

    Moral of the story: there are too many charlatans in the mentoring business who talk the talk but hardly do any walk themselves... buyer beware!
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I really need to stay out of threads like these because I tend to stir up a crap
      storm when I don't.

      Giving some time to another person is NOT being a mentor. I have a mailing list
      that may email me any time with their questions and I will answer them ... no
      charge.

      That's NOT being a mentor. A mentor is a complex relationship that, quite
      honestly, most people don't understand. They confuse mentor with coach and
      they are NOT the same thing.

      A coach gives you a set of XYZ instructions and says "Here, go do this!"

      A mentor sits over the person's shoulders, watches everything they do, and
      makes additions, corrections, whatever is needed, so that they will ultimately
      get the results they're looking for.

      Being a TRUE mentor is a crap load of work. It is the most time consuming
      thing that anybody can do, which is why I gave it up and will NEVER do it
      again.

      Most students don't have what it takes to make it. I'm sorry, but this is a
      fact that I have discovered from 9 years of this nonsense. And the reason
      for this horrible failure rate is simple. Most people don't have a CLUE what is
      REALLY required to create and run a successful business. Those of you who
      have done it know what I'm talking about.

      It's a crap ton of work. And it DOESN'T happen overnight.

      So after 3 months, and the student doesn't see the results they're looking for,
      they get discouraged and give up.

      And I've essentially wasted 3 months of my time. Forget the money I got. It
      doesn't even begin to pay for my hourly expenses. Hell, if I charged by the
      hour, nobody could afford me.

      Ironically, those who are the best mentoring candidates are those who don't
      NEED a mentor because they already have what they need to succeed
      between their ears. They just have to get off their butt and do it.

      One person, who is a member of this forum, started out with some simple
      instruction from me. They then took that and built an amazing business.
      Truth is, they didn't need me at all, but I'll be a smug son of a bitch and take
      the credit they gave me for getting them started.

      This person would have succeeded anyway.

      Mentoring is a thankless job.

      The joy of seeing someone succeed? Doesn't pay my bills.
      The money I DO get from mentoring? Not even CLOSE to what my time is worth.

      If you think Mark sounded jaded, come and spend a day at my house and
      see what I do to run my business.

      Think I have time to hold somebody's hand who's just going to quit in 3 months
      anyway?

      So please, save the "If you were a good, kind, person you'd do this for
      nothing" speech for somebody who gives a rat's behind.

      Like I said, I really need to stay out of these threads.

      /rant
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      • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I really need to stay out of threads like these because I tend to stir up a crap
        storm when I don't.


        The joy of seeing someone succeed? Doesn't pay my bills.
        The money I DO get from mentoring? Not even CLOSE to what my time is worth.

        If you think Mark sounded jaded, come and spend a day at my house and
        see what I do to run my business.

        So please, save the "If you were a good, kind, person you'd do this for
        nothing" speech for somebody who gives a rat's behind.

        Like I said, I really need to stay out of these threads.

        /rant
        Ironically, spending a day at your house to see what you do to run your business is exactly the kind of thing most of us are looking for ...

        Also, I am sorry your joy is not worth your money. Also ironic when you state you have an overabundance of one but seem lacking in the other.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Bellerine View Post

          Ironically, spending a day at your house to see what you do to run your business is exactly the kind of thing most of us are looking for ...

          Also, I am sorry your joy is not worth your money. Also ironic when you state you have an overabundance of one but seem lacking in the other.
          I actually have plenty of joy in my life, none of it having anything to do with
          this topic. And the reason I do have plenty of joy in my life is because I don't
          allow myself to get caught in this rat race anymore. I have better things to do
          with my time.

          None of that changes anything that I've said. People confuse coach with mentor
          and most people aren't ready for either.

          And most of the ones who are don't need them.

          Yes, it's quite ironic.
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          • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I actually have plenty of joy in my life, none of it having anything to do with
            this topic. And the reason I do have plenty of joy in my life is because I don't
            allow myself to get caught in this rat race anymore. I have better things to do
            with my time.

            None of that changes anything that I've said. People confuse coach with mentor
            and most people aren't ready for either.

            And most of the ones who are don't need them.

            Yes, it's quite ironic.
            Of the many things I could say here, I was raised better than to be so brutally honest.

            All in all, we reap what we sow will suffice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      If you're looking for a mentor, the first thing you should do is to ask him the two following questions:

      1) "If you know this business so well that you can coach me, why are you actually coaching me at per hour when you could be making *2 per hour implementing your lessons onto your own business?"

      If the answer is "because I love teaching and helping other", run away in the other direction: that's someone who's main -and possibly only- income comes from mentoring instead of running any actual business.

      2) "If you feel qualified to coach me to reach 6-figures in my business, can you show me proof that you run a 6-figure business yourself OUTSIDE the mentoring field?"

      If the answer is "it's not important how much I make, but how I can help you achieving your goals" or "I don't want to disclose my income" or something like that, then run away in the other direction because, again, that's someone who doesn't make a dime outside the mentoring field.

      Moral of the story: there are too many charlatans in the mentoring business who talk the talk but hardly do any walk themselves... buyer beware!
      Well said! That was the entire point of my post as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      If you're looking for a mentor / business coach... the first thing you should do is to ask him the following 2 questions:

      1) "If you know this business so well that you can coach me, why are you actually coaching me at X/hour when you could be making X*10/hour implementing your lessons onto your own business?"

      If the answer is "because I love teaching and helping others", run away in the other direction: that's a typical line from someone who's main -and possibly only- income comes from mentoring instead of running any actual business.

      2) "If you feel qualified to coach me to reach 6-figures in my business, can you show me proof that you run a 6-figure business yourself OUTSIDE the mentoring field?"

      If the answer is "it's not important how much I make, but how I can help you achieving your goals" or "I don't want to disclose my income" or something like that, then run away in the other direction because, again, that's someone who doesn't make a dime outside the mentoring field.

      Moral of the story: there are too many charlatans in the mentoring business who talk the talk but hardly do any walk themselves... buyer beware!
      I'm sorry, but that's just garbage.

      The majority of the greatest coaches in sports were never more than mediocre players themselves. Want some examples?
      • Chris Peterson, head coach Boise State Broncos, 82-8, played quarterback for 2 seasons for Sacramento City College Panthers -- hardly stellar credentials.
      • Vince Lombardi failed at semi-pro football, ended with a 96-34 overall, with his Green Bay Packers winning the first two Super Bowls.
      • Bo Schembechler, 20-year head coach of the Michigan Wolverines, career 234-65, played some college football for Miami University.
      • Woody Hayes, Ohio State Buckeyes, played some college ball.
      • Bobby Cox, the 4th-winningest manager in MLB history, was never able to make it out of the LA Dodgers farm teams.
      • John Madden never played in a professional football game.
      These men, and many others like them, knew how to extract peak performance from the people they coached.


      THAT is what a coach does.

      So an essential attribute for a coach is that "I can help you reach your goals."

      A good coach may not necessarily have the personal skills necessary to succeed in business themselves, but they know how to push you so you can develop those skills.

      A mentor can teach you the ropes, because they've done it.

      The two aren't interchangeable.
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      • Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

        I'm sorry, but that's just garbage.

        The majority of the greatest coaches in sports were never more than mediocre players themselves.
        Business is different than sports as there are physical conditions, injuries, etc.

        In business, there's nothing like that: either you're a profitable businessman or you're not. Now, here's my question: would you like to be coached by someone who's mediocre at his own business? is that the type of person you want to receive business advise from?


        Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

        A good coach may not necessarily have the personal skills necessary to succeed in business themselves, but they know how to push you so you can develop those skills.
        So if they don't have the personal skills necessary to succeed in business themselves, what on Earth qualifies them to coach others? The blind leading the blind syndrome, perhaps?

        So, basically, what I said: charlatans who talk but don't walk. You know the saying: those who can, do; those who cannot, teach. As per your previous quote, you seem to agree... I don't know about you, but I don't want to be coached by a "talker". I want to be coached by a proper businessman!
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          Business is different than sports as there are physical conditions, injuries, etc.

          In business, there's nothing like that: either you're a profitable businessman or you're not. Now, here's my question: would you like to be coached by someone who's mediocre at his own business? is that the type of person you want to receive business advise from?




          So if they don't have the personal skills necessary to succeed in business themselves, what on Earth qualifies them to coach others? The blind leading the blind syndrome, perhaps?

          So, basically, what I said: charlatans who talk but don't walk. You know the saying: those who can, do; those who cannot, teach. As per your previous quote, you seem to agree... I don't know about you, but I don't want to be coached by a "talker". I want to be coached by a proper businessman!
          Here's where and why your argument falls flat.

          John Doe goes to Harvard Business school and has more smarts than every
          Internet marketer on the planet combined. He knows every little thing about
          starting and running a business from generating a model to promotion to
          customer service after the sale.

          He has absolutely ZERO desire to do this himself but is MORE than capable of
          showing somebody else how to build a multi million dollar a year empire.

          You wouldn't want to be taught by somebody like that?

          Sorry, your argument is horse shit and doesn't wash.
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          • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Here's where and why your argument falls flat.

            John Doe goes to Harvard Business school and has more smarts than every
            Internet marketer on the planet combined. He knows every little thing about
            starting and running a business from generating a model to promotion to
            customer service after the sale.

            He has absolutely ZERO desire to do this himself but is MORE than capable of
            showing somebody else how to build a multi million dollar a year empire.

            You wouldn't want to be taught by somebody like that?
            So basically John Doe knows sh!t about any real business environment, all he knows is from theoretical books. Not only that, but he does not even have the entrepreneurial spirit to start his own business... yet he's looking to coach entrepreneurs? LOL, what a joke!

            In my opinion, John Doe is a charlatan who talks too much (and charges for it), but does too little.

            Sorry buddy, but its your horse shit what doesn't wash, in your own words...
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              So basically John Doe knows sh!t about any real business environment, all he knows is from theoretical books. Not only that, but he does not even have the entrepreneurial spirit to start his own business... yet he's looking to coach entrepreneurs? LOL, what a joke!

              In my opinion, John Doe is a charlatan who talks too much (and charges for it), but does too little.

              Sorry buddy, but its your horse shit what doesn't wash, in your own words...
              Do you have to lower yourself to vulgarity and insults?
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              • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
                Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                So basically John Doe knows sh!t about any real business environment, all he knows is from theoretical books. Not only that, but he does not even have the entrepreneurial spirit to start his own business... yet he's looking to coach entrepreneurs? LOL, what a joke!

                In my opinion, John Doe is a charlatan who talks too much (and charges for it), but does too little.

                Sorry buddy, but its your horse shit what doesn't wash, in your own words...
                Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

                Business is different than sports as there are physical conditions, injuries, etc.

                In business, there's nothing like that: either you're a profitable businessman or you're not. Now, here's my question: would you like to be coached by someone who's mediocre at his own business? is that the type of person you want to receive business advise from?




                So if they don't have the personal skills necessary to succeed in business themselves, what on Earth qualifies them to coach others? The blind leading the blind syndrome, perhaps?

                So, basically, what I said: charlatans who talk but don't walk. You know the saying: those who can, do; those who cannot, teach. As per your previous quote, you seem to agree... I don't know about you, but I don't want to be coached by a "talker". I want to be coached by a proper businessman!
                I literally laughed out loud while reading this. You're saying everything I would have said. LOL. Guys don't seem to understand the difference between theory and pragmatism. Until you've actually DONE IT, and done it successfully, what you know is purely theoretical...period.
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                • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                  Originally Posted by Sean T Alexandre View Post

                  I literally laughed out loud while reading this. You're saying everything I would have said. LOL. Guys don't seem to understand the difference between theory and pragmatism. Until you've actually DONE IT, and done it successfully, what you know is purely theoretical...period.
                  'Theory' and 'pragmatism' are totally unrelated terms, so yes, I understand the difference. Maybe you meant 'theory' and practice.

                  What people don't seem to understand the difference between is a coach and a consultant.

                  I guess Drucker was a theoretician then, yes?
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                  • Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                    What people don't seem to understand the difference between is a coach and a consultant.
                    Apparently you define a "coach" as a motivational figure that pushes you on (despite the fact that he lacked the "will" to push himself into his own business...).

                    Alright, if you need motivation and drive, and a "coach" gives you that, more power to you I guess.
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              • Profile picture of the author Bewley
                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                Do you have to lower yourself to vulgarity and insults?
                Are you not going to chastise Mr Wagenheim as well. It was him who started with the vulgarity - double standards spring to mind.
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              So basically John Doe knows sh!t about any real business environment, all he knows is from theoretical books. Not only that, but he does not even have the entrepreneurial spirit to start his own business... yet he's looking to coach entrepreneurs? LOL, what a joke!...
              JD was obviously entrepreneurial enough to start a coaching business, wasn't he?
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              • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                JD was obviously entrepreneurial enough to start a coaching business, wasn't he?
                But what about the results of his students? Did his advice lead to them becoming successful? Anyone can start a business, but who's going to succeed is the question.
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                • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                  Originally Posted by Sean T Alexandre View Post

                  But what about the results of his students? Did his advice lead to them becoming successful? Anyone can start a business, but who's going to succeed is the question.
                  In the case of Peter Drucker, who was never a successful businessperson - was never a businessperson at all, actually - I would have to say that he had pretty good results.

                  Obviously, that is one of the things that someone considering hiring a coach or consultant should do their due diligence on: has this person achieved, or caused to be achieved, the results they advertise? Will previous clients back up their claims?
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          Business is different than sports as there are physical conditions, injuries, etc.
          Not at all. Of the coaches I mentioned above, none had physical conditions or injuries that prevented them from playing. They simply didn't have the talent to be stellar players.

          In business, there's nothing like that: either you're a profitable businessman or a mediocre one. Now here's the question: would you like to be coached by someone who's mediocre at his own business? is that the type of person you want to receive business advise from?
          I wouldn't receive business advice from a coach. That's not what a coach does. A business consultant or a mentor gives business advice. A coach coaches me to be better than what I am.
          So if they don't have the personal skills necessary to succeed in business themselves, what on Earth qualifies them to coach others? The blind leading the blind syndrome, perhaps?
          What qualified Vince Lombardi to be one of the most famous coaches in history?

          We can have a discussion without the sarcasm, thanks.

          So, basically, what I said: charlatans who talk but don't walk. You know the saying: those who can, do; those who cannot, teach. As per your previous quote, you seem to agree... I don't know about you, but I don't want to be coached by a "talker". I want to be coached by a proper businessman!
          Again, you're equating coach with mentor, and they're not even close to being the same things.

          If you want to be taught the ins and outs of a particular business, you need a mentor or to hire a business consultant - someone who has been there and done that - 'walked the walk', as you put it. Such people may or may not be worthwhile as a coach.

          A coach is someone who has the ability to get you to strive toward peak performance. They may or may not know anything about your particular business, but they know how to help you recognize your deficiencies and correct them.

          How many highly paid executive coaches do you know of (or can find) that were themselves highly paid, successful executives?

          Arguably one of the most famous and well-known business coaches ever, Peter Drucker never owned or headed a company aside from his own coaching/consulting company. He couldn't tell you the ins and outs of making widgets, but he could help you to get you or your people to make them more profitably. THAT is what a coach does.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I wonder who coaches/advises/consults with the president of the United States, CEOs of the Fortune 100, famous actors, etc? Only other presidents, Fortune 100 CEOs, and famous actors?

    If I won 3 Super Bowls and someone else won 4 then by the "walk the walk" thinking I cannot help the guy who won 4. If I make $100,000 a year I can't help someone who makes $101,000 a year.

    The whole idea that people would be doing it themselves if they were really successful and never help others flies in the face of reality and exposes a dark underbelly of selfishness which a good coach would not have.

    Besides ask yourself why does McDonald's coach and train and license others to open restaurants instead of corporate opening them all? They are successful. They could make the money themselves instead of helping others.

    The same argument could be made about all kinds of other products and services. For example, one of the posters who have this attitude about coaching sells software to get a bunch of traffic to your sites. If it REALLY worked, then why doesn't he just slap up a bunch of cheap domains, put his super duper traffic software on there, and make TONS of money himself instead of sharing it with others??

    Wouldn't he make much more income that way than the low low price of $47 for the software? Either the software is crap and does NOT work or he's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author neralu
    I was in the same place as you are 3 years back when i started and bought lot of courses and spent tons of time to get more frustrated.
    Fortunately i got a mentor who taught me and today i make a living online. He was a awesome coach and had patience to answer all my queries. He generally gives an hour of consultation on skype free. But he chooses his students.. Try your luck, if he agrees to help you...
    Skype id is sreeharshasp
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  • Profile picture of the author gonzotrucker
    The War Room and all of you are my mentors. My goal is to earn $1500 a month online. Then I can live in the Philippines, and focus only on internet marketing. That way I can work 40 hours or more a week on this. Right now i'm back in the USA working a full time job which Limits the amount of time I can spend online working.
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  • Profile picture of the author drbrucehoag
    I'm going to be the contrarian in this discussion.

    For people who know what they want to do, it's great advice. But for people who don't?

    The problem as I see it is that there are a lot of people who know that others are making a living online, but have no idea where to start.

    And it seems to me that the best mentors and coaches know how to help budding online business people discover what that is.

    I would go so far as to say that many newbies don't know how to determine if the area in which they would like to have a business can make money, either.

    That said, many mentors and coaches make a good living without having to accept customers who need this sort of guidance. But let's not write off the "I haven't the foggiest" just because they're less than ideal clients.
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  • Profile picture of the author karlmay1980
    True to every word, thanks for the post!
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  • Profile picture of the author srodoks
    this is exactly wky most mentors require us to fill in a form about ourselves, nothing new here
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    The font may have been too big as I only meant to raise my voice ever so. Please read again. I say nothing about helping people in passing in fact I support it and do it all the time. Read the words. I don't think offering full out coaching for free is a good idea. Why should people get a full ride for free when there are 100's of ebooks that can show you how to get started fast.
    They work and they work well. Problem is that for them to work you must work and many people asking someone to lead them by the hand simply haven't got the work ethic to make it happen. This is why successful coaches with students who succeed screen and actually turn people down. If you are not ready this can be a massive waste of time and money for everyone involved. If you don't get that then I expect to see you taking on every sob story as your coaching students. I also expect you to do this for.... Wait it is coming..... Free. Say that out loud and it sounds a wee bit off.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bellerine
      "The whole pay it forward thing is great and all, BUT the people in the business of helping and mentoring have families, business to run and in some cases job to get to."

      That is part of what I responded to and not, I don't think, defensively.

      This thread is full of back and forth dialogues, often contrary. I can make a point, even of disagreement, without it being defensive or whatever that post implied. Maybe it's you reading too much into my writing, rather than a consistent problem of mine.

      Bilkat - so it's the asking for help that you feel is madness?

      Often times, one must ask to receive. To stand around and just hope you ask the right question at the right time that the right person will respond to correctly, seems a bit more mad to me.

      Yes, there are are ebooks a'plenty ... and training courses and webinars. The problem is, many of them aren't worth the kilowatts they cost to transmit. It is a very tricky proposition for someone just beginning, often on a minimal budget, to go around buying these things up. In fact, a kind and insightful mentor (or in my case, potential-mentor) pointing one to items of real value is incredibly helpful.

      At any rate, things are beginning to take off and I'm now at the end of a grueling 14-hour day (yayyy!) It's time for sleep!
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      • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
        Why is this thread STILL going as a debate? I agree with Tina, Bellerine. I DO think you're reading negativity and discouragement where none is intended.

        I'm a fellow Warrior, on the same journey here as every other Warrior. And I agree with Mark Singletary, Billkat19, Tina Golden, Karl Warren, etc.

        Whether any of us like it or agree with it or not, the bottom line is that in IM, "coaching", "mentoring" and "consulting" are all basically used interchangeably, period. Yes, it's not the traditional meaning of mentoring, as you've pointed out. But there it is. (Beyond the initial clarification, it's a complete waste of time and energy debating whether it's right or not. It just IS.)

        Yes, you may successfully find someone to mentor you in IM for free. And I do wish you much success in IM. As others have pointed out though, quite frankly, it's not likely. And as you've already acknowledged, expecting someone who offers business consulting and related products and services to help anyone for free isn't likely either. (And is in fact, rather arrogant to expect someone to do so.)

        In the field of business growth and success, the folks who know how to do it and are successful know it's a valuable skill and choose to sell their time and expertise (and rightfully so). I don't have any statistics to back this up, but my guess is that you're less likely to find someone to help you (as you describe) for free in this field than in almost any other field (like HR, as you mentioned).

        It's just the nature of it.

        A LOT of well-known and highly successful people offer completely free training (like free teleseminars and videos) which are very valuable in itself. Yes, they're selling something at the end of that call or video. But that doesn't negate the value of the information they're offering for free.

        Old school marketing and sales (i.e. heavy-handed sales presentations) is out. "Attraction marketing" (high-content, high-value information you can use right away for free) is in. I think that too many people overlook the value of the information being share for free because it's free (and we know there's a pitch coming at the end).

        But truthfully, in just the last few weeks, I found myself explaining some basic marketing concept or strategy to someone that I realized I'd learned on a completely FREE training call (i.e. teleseminar pitch).

        But that kind of information wasn't being shared 20 years ago. It was stuff you had to pay for. And most savvy business mentors/coaches/consultants offer much lower-priced information products so that you can get started, even if you don't have a big budget.

        Fabienne Fredrickson is launching her "Client Attraction Challenge" right now for just $297. I believe it includes some Q&A time, which is what I found most valuable with my own mentor.

        If you don't have the funds to get the information or help you really want, just start where you're at. Hop on some of the free teleseminars. Even if you know they'll be pitching something at the end, listen anyway. You'll learn A LOT!

        Read the expert's free articles, attend their free calls, watch their free videos, then buy their low-priced product, even if it's just one audio or report. Just start with where you're at and then go from there.

        It's what everyone else has to do too.

        Hope that helps!

        Mkchelle
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
          Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post

          Why is this thread STILL going as a debate?
          Good question -- the bulk of this thread is from two months ago, but someone (not anyone who had posted in it before) decided to bump it yesterday for some reason.

          If everyone starts revisiting the same arguments all over again, it will probably be closed. Maybe we can come up with some new perspectives or advice.
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        • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
          Also, I was the one who said that I'd paid my own mentor $8K in 2012 and $3K in 2010 for a total of $11K for 2 years of coaching.

          I've updated it: I've now paid her $9.5K in 2012 and $3K in 2010 for a total of $12.5K for 2 years of coaching!

          Most Warriors probably think that's insane and I must have a high-paying day job. Actually, I don't. I have a low-paid, worker-bee day job that just barely covers my living expenses. I'm a peon at the bottom of the food chain (i.e. customer service rep in a call center).

          But I tapped some retirement funds in 2010 (when I lost my previous day job) and also received an unexpected lump sum from another source in Dec. 2011. Instead of buying a new (to me) car, paying some other bills, or anything else, I chose to use it to help build my business, i.e. I hired my coach.

          It IS frustrating when you feel like you don't have the money you need/want to get the knowledge/help you need/want. "It's too expensive!" we whine.

          But as the late Jim Rohn points out "It's not too expensive. You just can't afford it!"

          On the surface, that seems harsh. But it highlights a key point: Whether something is expensive or not and your ability to afford it have NOTHING to do with each other!

          Whether something is "expensive" is a question of value. Is the product or service worth the price? (And of course, that's completely subjective.)

          "I can't afford it" is a cash flow issue.

          They ARE NOT the same thing. And for the rest of your business life, you'll be dealing with cash flow issues, no matter how big or small you are. It's just more zeros.

          Even financially successful business owners have things they want but can't afford. So they have to figure out how to afford it. And sometimes, they have to get pretty creative about it!

          If you truly don't have the funds, it's OK. Just realize that it's a cash flow issue, not a question of value.

          We ALL get irregular, unexpected funds from time to time. It might be birthday money, rebates, Christmas money from relatives, your tax refund, etc. The key is to have a plan for that money so it doesn't disappear into thin air.

          Make a list of the things you need/want when you DO have the funds. Prioritize that list. Then, when money does come into your life, you know what to buy. This really helps money not to slip through your hands.

          Do what you CAN do now and start right where you're at. Don't have any money? You can still do things.

          Pick your niche and target audience. Research your industry. Get to know the key players in your industry.

          Find people you want to learn from and get on their lists. Read their e-zines/articles. Listen to their free training calls. Watch their free videos.

          If you don't have a job, put your IM dreams on the shelf (temporarily) and do EVERYTHING you can to get a job. (I had to do that when I was unemployed for a year and a half in 2010-2011.)

          And ANYONE with a day job should be able to afford a domain name, hosting and basic setup for a basic WordPress site.

          Invest in some low-priced basic marketing course. And I define "low price" as $500 or under. If you have even a low-paid day job like me, you can afford it, even if you have to save up for it.

          And I recommend EVERYONE should invest in at least one, comprehensive marketing course that will show you the "how-to" in step-by-step fashion. It will save you a TON of time and frustration.

          Many, many experts offer payment plans to make it more affordable. (And while I don't necessarily recommend that people go into debt, I DO advise that people look at business debt the way most businesses do: as a tool. You may need to use it occasionally.)

          I DO understand your original post and intent. But the fact that this thread is still going and the uh, "debate" is still going makes me wonder....

          The bottom line is that:

          1. The terms "coaching/mentoring/consulting" are used interchangeably in IM. Right or wrong, it just IS. No sense wasting time or effort debating it.

          2. We all find ways to afford something if we REALLY want it. Anyone who insists on/spends excessive amounts of time on finding free mentoring/coaching speaks volumes about the value they place on such help.

          I'm not saying you can't find it, but still...

          3. Start right where you're at. Little or no money? Read free articles, listen to free calls, watch free videos, invest in low-priced products and services.

          Then go from there. If you really can't allocate more money from your personal budget and you have no way to get a second job, sell something on eBay or at swap meets. Sell a service (little to no cash investment required). Use a credit card.

          Basically, do whatever it takes.

          And yes, a lack of cash will mean you'll move more slowly. But that's ok. We all move along at our own pace.

          The rest of us have to climb the stairs to success too. The elevator is out of order.

          Michelle
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          "You can't market here. This is a marketing discussion forum!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    Look I went over your first response and this whole thing is silly. You have no idea that you are twisting every word I say to make it sound good to your argument. I am certian that if you were to simply visit my profile and just look up all the posts I was thanked in the you could very easily create an income from those posts alone(they are all free)

    . I love helping people. running around giving full on coaching is absurd and does devalue the whole process.

    You must really enjoy illegal download sites. Why pay to see a movie or pay for a software that one of your now peers paid to make.
    Let's give everyone in the world what they want and let's do it for free. That way money will have no value and we can hold hands dancing around in a field full of wonderful flowers. I can list you 50 of the world most successful people who did it by failing first. How many lawyers and doctors were given their education.

    IM may not put a new heart in your body but it can allow you the freedom to enjoy the one you have. So you still say give this away free to all those brave enough to ask. It is a big forum and I wish you all the best.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    I think a mentor is the best possible investment you can make...

    just my opinion based on personal experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
      Originally Posted by thedanbrown View Post

      I think a mentor is the best possible investment you can make...

      just my opinion based on personal experience.
      Amen! TOTALLY agree with this one. (Or I'd never have poured $12.5K into it!)

      Michelle
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      "You can't market here. This is a marketing discussion forum!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    Add self restraint here_______. Good luck Bellerine I wish you all the best.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    Well said Michelle.

    Great post some really good value and some of the responses have been awesome. I am about to try out some new coaching to ad a new spin on my business and can't wait. Not to mention the books I am behind on.

    I have actually found books and audio series are some of the best coaches and mentoring around.
    You have to fill in some blanks, but the info is awesome.
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