Come On People This Has To Stop.

Heck I know where youa re coming from

I'm sick and tired of the "latest best thing", knowing that's a old PLR report or a overhyped crap.

MODERATORS, WARRIOR OWNERS

get a "Warrior Approved" label and give it out to IM products prior reviewed here by members.

I bet that scammers and hyped BS will be less.

G.

P>S> There MUST be a way the IM niche receives a quality label, or people will soon quote all as a scam.

As long as there are buyers there will be launchers. Eventually things will play out.

IM market is so saturated i don't know how you guys find high volume low competition keywords for it.

But the IM scene has been getting better. These days, at least we know 90% of all ebooks are trash.

Yes, there is an overwhelming amount of products coming out and most people don't know how to choose the right products to buy.

the information overload is a major cause of poor success rate

it's estimated that only 3% of people take some kind of action on what they learn, this is a huge reason why so few people succeed.

I believe many people do come up with good products, but the poor products and the abundance of information makes those good products appear less valuable.

The true value can be determined when you take action!

Unfortunately, most people never get that far

Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

Ooh, that's nice Keith. I think I get it.

What people need and what the want and will buy aren't necessarily the same thing. Very few people want to hear "hard work" and "an online business is just like an offline business or anything else that is successful- it requires lots of quality input to get any quality output."

This is exactly why programs promising easy, fast, effortless income sell well even though we know the vast majority are misrepresented or outright BS.

I understand what you are getting at, but the problem isn't the supply side- successful marketers will sell whatever people want to buy (because they understand that is the way to sales success).

The problem is the demand side- people want fast, easy and effortless solutions to their problems and will ignore all kinds of good advice and common sense to get them, even if they turn out to be bogus in the end- hope springs eternal.

Hey Tim,

Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately. I don't say that lightly or as a put down. It just seems that every time I come in here you have a new "rant" thread up and running. But the thing is, they are all basically stating the same thing.

The truth is, SOME IMers have been this way at least for the past 8-9 yrs that I know of - thru rain, sleat, snow or shine, but not all or even the majority of them. Or maybe it's the fact that I seem to be on the right lists, so don't see these types of newsletters.

The fact is, if I keep getting them, I unsubscribe quickly, then go about doing what I believe to be the right thing, and that is to treat people right and to give them the very best I have to give.

To me, it's not about what everyone else is doing at the moment. It's about what I am doing at the moment that enhances my business, and helps other people to learn and grow that matter the most.

If you really want to make IM better where other people get real value, begin with you, and let the rest of them fall to the waste side. You have no control over what they do, but you do have control over what you do. Ranting isn't going to help much in the end. You can get more bang by being the example.


Mary

Tim,

Again, I really do appreciate your sentiment and couldn't agree more. It's just that I've seen most of these biz opp things as no more than predatory horseshit aimed at the most vulnerable for years. If I can see it, I don't see how anyone can be shocked ... SHOCKED.

I know there is legitimate material and programs out there, and I know you're one of the legitimate vendors. But as you've pointed out, there exist exponentially more snake oil sales persons. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. All you can do is keep posting/ranting and keep on being one of the good guys.

See my sig for further details.

Best wishes to you.

it is very interesting, howsome people just seem not to understand the concept of marketing. Marketing is not a numbers game.

As you said, you have to provide value, you have to be natural, your clients absolutely have to receive something that they can actually put into action ( or should I say readers...) you cannot just be going around, forcing people into buying stuff. This will not work.

Sebastian

One of the other problems is that anyone coming into this now don't know they are being sold hype and BS.

I'm fed up with marketers (well known ones) who say this is brand new, never seen before, when it has been sold as is for the past few years. They don't even attempt to make changes to it.

Now a new marketer is going to buy, and believe that it is new, and well what happens next, we all know.

I saw someone this week selling a package which originally came from the "Well Loved" Cody Moya. They were saying how wonderful it was and how it would make a person thousands. Most of that stuff was so old it wasn't funny. They listed them all which is why I know.

The emails that some are sending are also crazy. They have in the subject line, click here to download your purchase, I bought this for you, and when you click they have bought it, yes, but are selling it to you with rights.

I am guessing here, but I wonder if some of those marketers we know well and have trusted in the past are finding it hard to sell so they are trying anything to make a quick buck.

There will always be shammers and scammers.....and they will always sell to someone because there will also always be greedy, lazy people who want so badly to believe that they can make fortunes with little or no work.

There will always be idiots who will sell warmed over hash by claiming it's new and different polluting the pool for those who actually do sell what is new and different.

And it was always that way and always will be. The only thing you can do about the lack of common sense, integrity, and moral fiber of marketers is to strive to be better than they are. Make a name selling quality, and make a reputation giving quality service and don't worry about the scumbags. They eventually will take care of themselves in one fashion or the other.

Funnily enough, I have just posted a rant of my own. I think a lot of the problem has to do with why people get into Internet marketing in the first place. The primary reason seems to be to 'make money' which makes people vulnerable to get rich offers:

What I Hate About The Internet Marketing Niche | Kikabink News

Guess i am on tghe other side of the river, smiling.

Just started a free coaching, one month, daily videos + free reports on how to really make some money using blog networks. A FREE COACHING.

75% of users are 35 years plus.

I WILL be selling them advanced methods next 3 months BUT i am teaching them to make a few dollars a day with free tools.

I feel good about it dam it, wish somebody coached me on IM with free tools. But yeah, lots of oportunities right now.

There is a solution!

Kill the copywriters. Make it illegal to sell benefits!

"Buy my product. It comes in a really nice looking colourful box, made out of cardboard. Its quite shinny, and some of your friends will remark on how yellow it looks. To get the maximum benefit, you will also need to buy my brown product, but I'll be mailing you about this later, when you have some more money to spend"

Please PM me if you'd like one!

You know whats annoying me is I need 15 posts to PM anyone just because I am interested in advertising. I guess its a typical vbulletin thing... Also at the same time there is a offer on another board and I need 30 posts to even say that I bought the guys program.. So I cant PM him or post in that thread. Spam filters.. Ok..


Besides that I LOVE this place!!!!!

Every single lucrative industry has this problem.

The medical industry is full of fraud, doctors use material marketed to them by Billion dollar pharmaceutical companies who only care about $$ and not getting rid of a disease .

Copywriters like to pretend their product or service will solve 80% of the buyers money problems.
After getting burned enough times, people realize life isn't a bed of roses, some skill, money, time and discipline is required.

So are we a part of the solution or problem ?

As somebody who's been taken in by all the hype before and bought lots of products, I can understand where you are coming from.

I think the main problem is many of the products are actually not well constructed so unless you have a phd in science, then sometimes its difficult to actually "implement".

Right now, I am trying to focus, unsubscribe from as many newsletters as possible and just do a small number of things - rather than trying to win everybody at everything.

Matthew

It's one big ball of oil, really it is. Everybody is selling the same stuff to new and unsuspecting people, who in turn, sell it to new an unsuspecting people.

Check out the thread I posted in the 'JV Forum' about anybody broadening their horizons. Not one response. Hysterical. If that's not proof-positive of the state of IM marketing, then what is? What a joke.

Maybe some of our pop-philosophers can weigh in with some deep thoughts. Jack Handy called he wants his thoughts back.

I liked it when you say "Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur." This statement I would have to say is the truth with a good deal of companies in marketing. They don't want to tell you right off the bat that you will have to swindle and lie to people to get a buck. There have been companies in which I have been in that told me that if I would sign up for the book of the month and the CD's I would benefit more. I did so, and found that the book was dumb and offered no advice and the CD's were people who have success in the business and are bragging of their nice things. It seems that there are many companies who just need bodies to fill and don't care for them to know the truth of the whole business. It is kind of sickening.

Well said Tim You said everything I believe and have said, yet much less eloquently.
Does anyone actually want to help someone succeed at any level or simply just take advantage of the desperation people are feeling.

I hate those big launches, the MASSIVE prices for reworked content, the 'supergurus' baiting people on. I love the little guy who has an actual product they believe in , whether it a niche or a service or a product. helping those people is what internet marketing should be about.

I've only been doing eMarketing design specific work for about a year, so I'm not the titan of IM and don't want to be BUT I believe,
the only people that make money on those ger rich quick launches and products are the ones selling them to the people buying them.

5 yrs ago or so I bought my first ebook about how to make money on ebay. It worked! Gave great tips on different aspects of the ebay site, the best days to post and close auctions and so on. Now that to me is a great product.

I don't have a disdain for the IM Niche, I know there are honestly sincere people just doing the best they can with what they have to offer. I have a disdain for megamarketers and the hype with the ridiculous prices and empty promises.

Take a Moment to Read the Following

Expansion/Contraction, Tim, nothing new. It's referred to metaphorically in the biblical story about Joseph and his Coat of Many colors. He warns the Pharoah of 7 fat years and 7 lean years. Unless you're an advisor to the Pharoah, changing the masses is going to be pretty tough. The best way to change them is to just set the right example and just allow those who find you to learn what they can from it.

You make it sound so casual. In actuality, they'll be racing online like lemmings hoping to find gold in them thar hills... it'll be another gold rush and since the internet is really in the mind, they'll be exploring new areas of their mind to see if they can find new veins of gold (creativity).

lol, this is just a tad negative but absolutely understandable. It doesn't even consider the fact that these hordes will be bringing quite a bit of bullshit and nonsense with them. Perhaps you should be watching out for them rather than trying to protect them from...?

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston I saw the very same copy and paste affiliate promotions come in today from two people I'm friends with and I just had this moment of clarity.

I went through this back in 2002-2003, others with more experience went through it earlier. Some of us go through some version of it at some point but it's a good sign, actually. Having the shocking realization of the kind you're having is a sign that you've made it past a certain point... it signals that you have longevity. You're now just going to have to find a way to cope with what you've seen and make the best of it.

I've got a question for you, Tim.

Where and when did anyone ever tell you that internet marketing was about "leading horses to water and making them drink?" You can't change human nature. You can only change yourself. Right now, for example, I have no expectations of what you'll do with this reply. How can I? How can I force you to change your "level" so that you "understand" me better? Perhaps you will understand me better if I point out to you that just because we are in the middle of an internet marketing forum doesn't mean you aren't talking to Xth generation victims of the madness you describe.

And you want to tell the old recruits to "give the new guys a break?"

And maybe they won't, Tim. I think it's pretty shaky when the lynch pin of your whole concern is that "perhaps some sincere seekers amidst the tumultuous masses of upcoming newbies will also be caught up in the madness and swept away."

And perhaps they won't. Again, though I'm not a biblical scholar, the story about Moses obtaining the freedom of the Hebrews, then leading them into the "desert" for 40 years and building the nation of Israel is one heck of a story that can be understood, and applied, metaphorically.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

If they don't want to plug into it, then their psychological taste buds will reject it and continue looking until they find what tastes right for their particular disposition.

???????

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston This is extremely bizarre and yet the people involved carry on as if nothing absurd is being perpetuated day in and day out. It is extremely likely the IM bubble will burst even further than it has already in recent years and this whole silly party of "we'll all just sell B2B stuff to each other and then nobody has to bother with real consumer products" will be over.

Tim, you're awesome. I'm glad you're having this experience. There's something more to it that'll become obvious soon enough. But, for now, what you just said in the last paragraph is a classic "linear thinking" mistake that is made by 99% of the people I read... they overlook the fact that some of us COMBINE methods across different venues. We're not all selling solely to IM'ers but that is certainly one stream of income.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston Maybe the impending influx of new people as a result of the downturn will help initiate change.

Certainly, but not necessarily the kind you're thinking of. It'll be like Obama-style change where you say you're going to pull the troops out of Iraq but then you surge them in Afghanistan. For many people, it's going to seem like madness for a while but it'll settle down again and some of us will come out on top. You just have to understand the forces of nature and be prepared. Build your ark, man.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston Many of these people will be unlike opp seekers in the past; folks who lost their job in the crunch really need legitimate business options and it'll be interesting to see their response to the mayhem that currently passes as valid home business information.

But, unlike many in the past who DIDN'T lose their jobs but were just sold on the dream of ditching their bosses and spending more time with their families at a ski lodge or some tropical island, these newcomers will have a REAL HUNGER that will drive a stronger FOCUS and greater determination. And probably a whole lot less tolerance for the bullshit to which you are, understandably, referring.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston Does this rant make sense to anyone else in here? Am I alone in my disdain for the current state of the mainstream "Internet Marketing Niche"?

Hell, yeah it makes sense. But it's not the whole situation. It's just a SNAPSHOT... like in quantum physics there's reference to "the particle" (the snapshot) and "the wave" (the process) and the ultimate difference is your "level of being", the level of consciousness of the one who OBSERVES.

If you have any more questions, fire away.

Eric

Tim,

This phenomena has been accurately described in the past as Internet Marketing Incest.

However, you can't load the full responsibility on those pushing the crap. Some of the responsibility must be apportioned to those who continually buy the re-hashed drivel of which you speak.

Greed and laziness often lead buyers to thinking they can begin earning thousands and possibly millions by skipping the most important aspects of establishing a successful and functional business (hard work, focus and perseverance).

How long will it go on? Forever...or at least for as long as man walks the earth. It's in our nature. Case in point...we know without a doubt that war has taken lives, wreaked havoc, and caused misery for untold millions; but even the impending threat of death caused by wars doesn't stop us from declaring and going to war.

One ray of hope in this IM madness is that it does clear the way for those who are willing to impart genuine knowledge by offering legitimate and viable opportunities.

Excellent post by the way...

Calvin

Lots of good comments.

IM certainly has its charlatans just like financial sales and other areas. Fortunately most IM frauds are considerly less than what is seen in direct sales. Yes everyone gets affected to some degree by the actions of others but that doesn't always have to be the negative side. Do your part and you help make the system better although it won't seem like you're having any impact.

The one thing we count on is CHANGE. We don't know the who, what or when with any certainly or the speed of it but we know it is constantly occurring. Quality (value added) is what seems to persevere in the long run.

It's not rehashed crap if it's the first time of reading it

I don't condone buying plr and selling as it is with a "brand new secret" tag put on it but I've seen many Warriors revamp old work and make it 20x better.

I think my post went off topic lol?

regards,
Louis

Hi Tim,

I've always been somewhere between amused and distraught by the "internet marketing niche"...

You have a bunch of marketers selling marketing know-how to wannabe marketers who in turn want to sell marketing know-how to future wannabe marketers.

I've been at more than one internet marketing conference where someone in the audience has asked the pointed question, "Do any of you guys sell 'real' products and not just products designed to help you market other products?"

Because, of course, there are lots of us in various niches whose business is not primarily selling marketing knowledge for its own sake. And if you pay attention to the internet marketing niche for too long, you might begin to wonder if it's really possible to make a buck selling anything besides marketing!

Add to this the off-the-charts hype that characterizes sales copy in this niche (hype that would get the rest of us tarred and feathered in our own niches) and you begin to see how artificial the whole thing has become.

The rant stoppeth here

Be careful with absolutes like "nobody"

because there are people who care. Admittedly there are lots of bs'ers out there. The 80/20 rule definitely applies so find that 20% who do care and listen to them.

I agree there is a lot of fluff and foam in emails from the gurus. It's all the same stuff. But there is an opportunity there. People get so tired of getting that stuff that if you can offer some genuine value in your emails people will respond. I wouldn't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there sending out quality emails--it would make my job all that much harder.

One other thing about the bullsh*t products being sold for high prices. One thing to remember is that the gurus have huge advantages over a newbie, even a newbie with a far superior product. The gurus have huge lists, they have contacts with the big JV partners, and they understand the process of a successful product launch. The big guys can make a ton of money with a mediocre product because of this.

I guess there is a certain amount of "paying your dues" to get into the big leagues. It doesn't happen overnight. Great marketing will beat out great products (with less than great marketing) every time.

The other thing is that everyone out there wants to buy a program that will make them a fortune without doing any work. Becoming successful online is a process built upon accretion.

People have to realize (and they don't) that when you buy a product you learn some good stuff hopefully, but that a real education comes from learning a little from this guy, learning a little from that guy, and learning a whole lot on your own. I have bought tons of products and I have learned something from every one of them, but I haven't learned everything from any one of them. There isn't, and there never will be a "learn it all right here" product.

Tim,

I literally shoveled bull shit, cow shit, horse shit and chicken shit the better part of the day today... and I didn't mind one bit... it's going right on my gardens

Seriously Tim, if this stuff is bothering you this much, go outside, find some other work to balance you out a bit. Find a farm to work at, or a martial arts dojo to get some exercise (I recommend Arnis/Escrima).

If I didn't have some physical/manual labor/exercise, I would go nuts working only online... I completely understand your frustrations, but there is not much you can do about those who frustrate you.

"The way you change the world is through one random act of kindness at a time." (from Even Almighty I believe...)

.jrd

P.S. My biggest frustration today was when I smacked my thumb HARD with my hammer... yea, that thumbnail will definitely fall off in a few days, I can tell by the black/purple color and how much it hurts... but I have nobody to blame but myself for that one.

It will continue to happen as long as money can be made. It's pretty sad. Sometimes pretty hard to tell quality from repackaged product.

Tims premiss is sell them what they need Not what they want...

Recipe for failure, always has been always will be

Find a hungry market
create a product they want

Its consumer driven...

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston
What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

"I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."


Tim this is what the IM niche is... I dont get what the beef is here

The IM niche is a niche that sells how to make money online products to people who want to make money online

And pretty much everything put out will work if used as intended. Its much like the argument traffic exchanges are crap and dont work, but I can point you in the direction of thousands of people that make them work everyday

!00's of people that make or have made 6 and 7 figures using them.

Most of the people bitching are those that dont follow the instructions or try shortcuts for a week then comdemn it.

Your pissing into the wind dude... your just going to get wet shoes

I am glad others think the same way I do. Perhaps one way to disuade this rehash of old info (which I have read is encouraged by some gurus) is to use the refund guarantee offered on the sales pages.

There is so much crap out there that I just switch off now, and for about 90% of emails that I get from IMs get's trashed. You will never be able to change the landscape for the vast majority of surfers that are looking for the answer to all their woes. My own impression is that it's only 1 or 2 % of IMs that are making vast amounts of cash the rest are just pure crap. Hard work and durability are the answers to success, and the sooner that people realise this the quicker the Industry get's cleaned up.

This thread has been an interesting read...

I loved Keith's brilliant analogy of the predatory wolf that eventually eats his own ecosystem. That was just great, really!

I also really dig Eric's thoughtful and deep reframe of the issues at work -- and I fully agree with him that much of the OP's angst is somewhat unfairly misplaced on the shoulders of marketers without proper consideration of the very demands made by those to whom they market.

Paul Myers has a great saying that's particularly applicable:

It's always easier to point to the failure of the masses as prima facie proof that something sucks than it is to accept the successes of the few who in fact prove the exact opposite.

Surely we can all agree that some very powerful ideas DO cut through all the noise and have had a truly transformative effect on "real" people's lives (even if it's not your bag of Doritos).

There's plenty of GREAT information available, and people are and will always be buying it. But most of them don't come to forums or spend time blogging about it. They just enjoy the experience they bought and move forward.

Those are the people you see filling seats at live events but never hear from online. The custom transom manufacturer who turns over 4 million a year in his business... @ 32% profit.

That guy is happy as a pig in the mud but he'd sure like to grow sales to 6M and keep the same margins or maybe squeeze out a few more points where he can. For him, a trip to San Diego or an SEO product that costs as much as your mortgage payment is a genuine and significant opportunity, just like the sales letter said it was...

There's real, lasting, meaningful success happening for people out there every day using the very same stuff that pisses other people off.

The END USERS are the drivers of that success -- not the products they buy, or the gurus they follow, or the tactics and strategies that they implement. They are self-responsible, action takers that are AWARE and have a finely tuned sense of acuity. They observe and respond.

Of course, you noticed that I didn't say "watch and react"...

Contrast that to the mindset of the average help desk trouble ticket or refund request.

The pattern is not unpredictable.

Sometimes, it bears repeating that the little old world of Internet marketing does go far and well outside the realm of $97 info-products and well beyond the $1997 guru launch products.. and even beyond the $10k coaching and events. I made my bones selling very niche specific services that run from $695 - $12k with an AVERAGE sale of $6k+.

High level actionable information on that level is very, very different from actionable material as one guy selling stuff via Paypal -- even for ME, having done it both ways.

Leverage is the difference. It's what newbies should always be looking for and it's what established, growing businesses already have.

If you buy something, even a stupidly simple $17 ebook, that gives you new leverage, then it's a smart buy.

If you buy something, even an ingeniously conceived, planned and executed multimillion dollar launch product, that does NOT give you that leverage, then it's a waste of attention and money.

But most of all... if you BUY something, USE IT. Do something with it.

This got long fast... I'm out.

Best,

Brian

That's one of the most amusing posts I have seen recently. Additionally, IM is a numbers game, more is better.

Some people are scammers and take the money and run, but some of us do offer good programs and products to people looking to make money. Haven't you seen that statistical video that was circulating around and showed up on Dan Kennedy's blog a couple months ago? There are billions, yes billions of people joining the online community daily. There is alot of money out there. There will always be snake oil salesmen, but you don't have to be part of that. Stand tall, give content worthy of respect and you should be able to reap nicely from what you sow.

If all the lemmings jump, I want to be left standing in the back, cause I ain't going.