Come On People This Has To Stop.

67 replies
We're quite possibly entering the most severe global economic downturn in 75 years. This isn't a guess based on the latest headlines, it's extrapolation from sound demographics that anyone can find and analyze on world markets over the past century or so.

This means potentially massive opportunities across various sectors for those willing to look at things from this perspective. And it also means even more people will be coming online in search of genuine opportunities to increase prosperity.

What will they find when they arrive? Probably more bullshit and nonsense.

I saw the very same copy and paste affiliate promotions come in today from two people I'm friends with and I just had this moment of clarity. The "Internet marketing" sector just gets more absurd every month doesn't it?

Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur.

How many major product launches with blockbuster movie titles and little true substance have we seen in the past six months? How many of the average users of these systems have made even the first dollar in profit?

This is just insane and it keeps on going. I realize most opportunity seekers are jokers looking for a handout but even a small % of sincere seekers means there are thousands and thousands of people who really do want solid info.

But they'll probably get sideswiped by this infatuation list owners have with the latest and greatest crap to get rolled out.

What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

"I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."

???????

This is extremely bizarre and yet the people involved carry on as if nothing absurd is being perpetuated day in and day out. It is extremely likely the IM bubble will burst even further than it has already in recent years and this whole silly party of "we'll all just sell B2B stuff to each other and then nobody has to bother with real consumer products" will be over.

Maybe the impending influx of new people as a result of the downturn will help initiate change. Many of these people will be unlike opp seekers in the past; folks who lost their job in the crunch really need legitimate business options and it'll be interesting to see their response to the mayhem that currently passes as valid home business information.

Does this rant make sense to anyone else in here? Am I alone in my disdain for the current state of the mainstream "Internet Marketing Niche"?

#people #stop
  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    Heck I know where youa re coming from

    I'm sick and tired of the "latest best thing", knowing that's a old PLR report or a overhyped crap.

    MODERATORS, WARRIOR OWNERS

    get a "Warrior Approved" label and give it out to IM products prior reviewed here by members.

    I bet that scammers and hyped BS will be less.

    G.

    P>S> There MUST be a way the IM niche receives a quality label, or people will soon quote all as a scam.
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  • Profile picture of the author Trader54
    As long as there are buyers there will be launchers. Eventually things will play out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vanquish
    IM market is so saturated i don't know how you guys find high volume low competition keywords for it.
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    • Profile picture of the author reapr
      Originally Posted by Vanquish View Post

      IM market is so saturated i don't know how you guys find high volume low competition keywords for it.
      As long as there are new products being created, new supplements etc ... it will never get oversaturated. It amazes me how many of the paid keyword tools can miss gems. I pays to learn how to use the freebies along with the paid tools.

      There is always products to sell and promote and where the money rolls in is being ahead of the product or fad ... in other words you did your research and was one of the first in before the the other sheeple followed suit.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marcel Pamphile
    But the IM scene has been getting better. These days, at least we know 90% of all ebooks are trash.
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  • Profile picture of the author jbode
    Yes, there is an overwhelming amount of products coming out and most people don't know how to choose the right products to buy.

    the information overload is a major cause of poor success rate

    it's estimated that only 3% of people take some kind of action on what they learn, this is a huge reason why so few people succeed.

    I believe many people do come up with good products, but the poor products and the abundance of information makes those good products appear less valuable.

    The true value can be determined when you take action!

    Unfortunately, most people never get that far
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Thanks for the feedback. I sort of got off track and may not have nailed my primary point, which is...

      We're entering possibly a second great depression and still it seems most IMers are selling their lists a bunch of fluff and bullshit. It just saddens me.

      People need REAL SUPPORT and genuine info right now not more of this childish crap.
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      • Profile picture of the author sevenish
        Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

        We're entering possibly a second great depression and still it seems most IMers are selling their lists a bunch of fluff and bullshit. It just saddens me.

        People need REAL SUPPORT and genuine info right now not more of this childish crap.
        I don't see why this is more relevant now than before. Is there some reason that people didn't need "REAL SUPPORT and genuine info" before?

        I appreciate your sentiment, really ... but "fluff and bullshit" was as unsavory years ago as it is today.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
          Originally Posted by CapForge View Post

          The problem is the demand side- people want fast, easy and effortless solutions to their problems and will ignore all kinds of good advice and common sense to get them, even if they turn out to be bogus in the end- hope springs eternal.
          I definitely won't disagree with that. The overwhelming majority of consumers in any home business market are of extreme low quality in terms of wanting to work or even think in a sustained manner.

          Originally Posted by sevenish View Post

          I don't see why this is more relevant now than before. Is there some reason that people didn't need "REAL SUPPORT and genuine info" before?

          I appreciate your sentiment, really ... but "fluff and bullshit" was as unsavory years ago as it is today.
          That's fine but things are getting more serious. As people lose their jobs and come online the prospect pool will no longer be people with fantasies to explore.

          The people who will be getting screwed by this crap in the near future are folks who are now living from their savings accounts and need something of substance.

          The whole point is moot of course. It is what it is.

          I've walked away many times, only to come back. I often think it's money that compels me but honestly no amount of profit is worth the way the IM market often makes me feel.

          The fact is most likely I just want to help the few quality prospects I can find. I want to have an impact on those who are sincere in their desire to succeed online.

          But I expect I'll be phasing the IM part of my efforts out again soon. Aynone wanna buy a blog and list of 4,500 IMers?
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          • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
            Hi Tim,

            It's sad to hear you have a fairly pessimistic view of many internet marketers.

            From what I've seen -- there are some scammers and or just lazy people (i.e., selling horse manure as equistite chocolate and selling it) -- and I'll totally agree -- those guys suck.

            But there are a lot of 'good' people. I have been reviewing a few courses/ideas/etc presented by people (here, and related to this forum), and some of them have excellent ideas.

            Not everyone is selling 'crap', but to the people that are -- I agree, they should add value to their products. Money isn't everything. And if all you are doing is spinning articles to rank highly in search engines to hope for some adsense crumbs -- while not necessarily a 'bad' way to get started (if you have no money at all) -- as a sustainable business model you may have some difficulty.

            Some of the industries that are having difficulty (i.e., automakers) are having that difficulty because they were either not providing 'real' value, or they were simply being too greedy, or a combination of both. (In the case of many automakers, I'd say probably both -- overpriced cars to people who couldn't afford them, designed to break down within 5 years so they could buy a new one. Cars in the 50's and 60's can still run now if you took care of them).

            Anyways, bottomline, make sure you add some real value to your products/services, and not only will you be getting 'money', but you will have a sense of satisfication of having accomplished something good.
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  • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
    Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by DcSimmons View Post

      There are some good legitimate programs though
      Of course there are. I'm just talking (in vain I know) about the more nonsensical elements of the whole IM sector - the way these B2B resources are presented, the fact that it's more about selling dreams than helping legitimate businesses succeed, and the somewhat childish overtone of the entire marketplace.

      Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

      Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.
      As someone who probably needs a 12 step program to help with my philosophy addictions I can actually surmise multiple implications from your post. Whether or not I get your intended message is of course unclear but it's one of the better responses I've seen in some time either way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clyde Dennis
    Ooh, that's nice Keith. I think I get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Remuzzi
    What people need and what the want and will buy aren't necessarily the same thing. Very few people want to hear "hard work" and "an online business is just like an offline business or anything else that is successful- it requires lots of quality input to get any quality output."

    This is exactly why programs promising easy, fast, effortless income sell well even though we know the vast majority are misrepresented or outright BS.

    I understand what you are getting at, but the problem isn't the supply side- successful marketers will sell whatever people want to buy (because they understand that is the way to sales success).

    The problem is the demand side- people want fast, easy and effortless solutions to their problems and will ignore all kinds of good advice and common sense to get them, even if they turn out to be bogus in the end- hope springs eternal.
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    • Profile picture of the author BlogBrowser
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
        Originally Posted by BlogBrowser View Post

        This is ABSOLUTELY correct. The only reason as of why we see hundreds of shitty products being released every month is because there are indeed people buying them who DO NOT want to hear the truth, meaning that making money online is shitloads of work, determination and consistency. In stead, they want to hear about the super-duper latest secret to make $500 a day on autopilot using some retarded wordpress script and whatnot.
        I don't know if that's true. Do you think people would even think that making money online was possible if they hadn't been exposed to marketers making promises of easy money?

        Originally Posted by BlogBrowser View Post

        Why do you think the diet business is a multi-million business? because there are tons of idiots who seek the miracle diet to lose 20 pounds eating pineapple or some shit like that. Everyone knows that the only thing you need to do in order to lose weight is to A) eat properly and B) do exercise. Yet they dont want to sweat nor they want to give up on their donoughts. So, basically, what we have is nothing but a bunch of lazy naive people looking for fast results without willing to put in the effort.
        Laziness is a vice, sure. But you also point out that people can be naive, and I don't think that makes it okay to take advantage of them. The right way to approach what you're saying is to actually CREATE the way that people can lose weight easily and quickly, and sell that. It doesn't necessarily have to come from a place of false promises.

        Originally Posted by BlogBrowser View Post

        The illness is not on the marketers' side - it's on the demand. Marketers are simply capitalizing on it, which is rather logical.
        No, I think what you're describing is "preying" rather than capitalizing. If your business model requires you to take advantage of a weakness in someone (ignorance, panic) and leaves them no better than you found them, you're a predator.

        NOTE: Not "you" specifically, BB - just speaking in general here.

        The way I look at it is that my role as a "marketer" in the online context is to be a shepherd of sorts. I want to gain a flock of loyal repeat customers, I want to treat them well so they will keep coming back and giving me wool. The sheep are happy, I'm happy, it's win win.

        Some marketers instead are more like wolves. They'll just eat the sheep, or skin it instead of just shearing it. You might get a good meal, but there's no ecology - no conservation. The life of a predator is hard, because you always need to keep looking for the next meal.

        The more successful a predator is, the less time he will be able to get by. It's a non-sustainable system. Eventually, he'll wipe out his own food supply, or they will figure out how to avoid him, and his game is up. Find dumber sheep, or find a new "trick".

        Meanwhile, the sheep actually FLOCK to the shepherd, because he takes care of them. And sheep follow other happy sheep. The herd grows.

        It's not hard to do this - just make sure you're always lopsided, offering more value than you ask in payment. Always try to give more than you get, and you'll be AMAZED at how much you can get back, and how easily it will come.

        Plus, you'll sleep like a baby.
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        • Profile picture of the author TheCren
          Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

          No, I think what you're describing is "preying" rather than capitalizing. If your business model requires you to take advantage of a weakness in someone (ignorance, panic) and leaves them no better than you found them, you're a predator.
          Well put. I'd like to add that being a predator is the easy way out. New IMers look for an easy way in and "B.S.-marketers" provide a false door right on the same path the prospect is already taking instead of showing him/her the right path.

          Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

          The way I look at it is that my role as a "marketer" in the online context is to be a shepherd of sorts. I want to gain a flock of loyal repeat customers, I want to treat them well so they will keep coming back and giving me wool. The sheep are happy, I'm happy, it's win win.

          Some marketers instead are more like wolves. They'll just eat the sheep, or skin it instead of just shearing it. You might get a good meal, but there's no ecology - no conservation. The life of a predator is hard, because you always need to keep looking for the next meal.
          Good analogy, even allows me to extend another point... the sheep never asked you to sheer them. They'd much rather wander in the fields unwary of the wolves. Humans scare them, even though we mean no harm. The wolves stalk them perfectly unnoticed and pounce when the time is right.

          Good marketers just want to protect the newbies and tell them to be cautious, but most new comers want fast cash ASAP. Their blood isn't on our hands.

          At least in real life they have 60+ days to ask for a refund. That's more than actual wolves give.

          Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

          The more successful a predator is, the less time he will be able to get by. It's a non-sustainable system. Eventually, he'll wipe out his own food supply, or they will figure out how to avoid him, and his game is up. Find dumber sheep, or find a new "trick".
          It seems all the IM wolves have learned to let the flock breed enough so that food supply isn't in danger. There's a reason the wolves aren't extinct yet... and neither are the sheep.
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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            • Profile picture of the author danmart
              The sad thing is the "Get Rich NOW" ploy is what works. People don't want to hear that IM takes time and work they want instant answers to their problems. Once they do get one of these programs they learn (often times the hard way) the truth. At that point they seek out the quality offers.
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            • Profile picture of the author Greg Cooksley
              Hey Tim,

              You and several others have clearly defined the status quo....so I won't add to that....

              What I want to say is this......there is little to nothing you or I can do about it. It's the nature of the game....

              However, there is so much that you and I can do about how we market to end-users....how we treat our clients, how we nuture and grow them, how we add value to them. And by so doing, how we become a TRUSTED ADVISOR....what a privileged position to firstly obtain and then to hold onto....

              So let me encourage you....avoid what you cannot change and do something about what is in your control......your clients will love you for it.

              Regards

              Greg

              PS - you only have to be a couple of % better than the average to be phenomenal.
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              • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
                I hung my washing outside yesterday and it dried beautifully. Last night I put a few more loads in the washer ready to put out this morning and what would you know - it's raining. Bl**dy rain. It always rains when I do washing. Every single time...

                Oh, sorry, I thought this was the thread that we complained about things that we've no control over.

                I see Greg had the right idea.

                Originally Posted by Greg Cooksley View Post

                So let me encourage you....avoid what you cannot change and do something about what is in your control......your clients will love you for it.

                Peter

                PS I put my washing in the drier - it's not only dry but it's crease-free and warm. Every cloud...

                PPS Come on people, this has to stop ( I read that somewhere, don't recall where) ;-)
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Tim...I agree.

                  This has also been going on since I first stepped into this business over 6
                  years ago.

                  I can't begin to tell you all the crap that was being peddled back then. I
                  won't mention any names because I don't want to embarrass anybody, but
                  trust me...I found very little that was worth beans.

                  And the prices????

                  $97 for something you couldn't sell in a legitimate book store for more than
                  $14.95...if that.

                  Nothing is new. This has probably been going on long before I ever got into
                  this business and my guess is, it will go on long after I am dead and gone.

                  Human nature makes it so that there will always be people out there who...

                  1. Are looking to make a quick buck selling crap.
                  2. People who will buy crap because they too are looking for a quick buck.

                  It's a vicious cycle that feeds itself.

                  As long as there is greed on both ends of it (merchant and consumer)
                  nothing is going to change.

                  Welcome to the real world since the days of the 3 Card Monty.
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                • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
                  Is there a difference between "make money the easy way" marketing and the car manufacturer who convinces you that you'll be more attractive to the opposite sex if you buy their car?

                  Marketing is marketing is marketing - emotions first, logic second.

                  Cheers,

                  Neil
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              • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
                Originally Posted by Greg Cooksley View Post


                So let me encourage you....avoid what you cannot change and do something about what is in your control......your clients will love you for it.
                Greg you always have quality to add to a thread. I appreciate your post and of course I know I won't change anything.

                I just had something that really wanted to be said and I wondered if it would resonate with any others. It is what it is and the bottom line is truly that I'm just not a fit for what our society currently accepts as marketing.

                It's really time I figure out how to accept that permanently and just stick with what I'm really wired to do.
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        • Profile picture of the author Matt Remuzzi
          Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

          I don't know if that's true. Do you think people would even think that making money online was possible if they hadn't been exposed to marketers making promises of easy money?
          It isn't about how they are going to make money, it is that they are seeking to make money easily, with very little effort or by adding any real value to the process. Whether it is online, MLM, gambling secrets or whatever it is the same mentality that drives these buyers. The marketers didn't create the demand they are just catering to it.



          Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

          The right way to approach what you're saying is to actually CREATE the way that people can lose weight easily and quickly, and sell that. It doesn't necessarily have to come from a place of false promises.
          As BlogBrowser pointed out, there already is a well known, free and effective way to lose weight- eat less and exercise. But that's hard, and many people would prefer a way to lose weight that doesn't require them to put in much effort or give up eating foods they like, which is why the diet industry is a multi-billion dollar annual business and why Lap-Band surgeries and other procedures have become so popular- many people would rather submit to surgery with a possible risk of death than try to succeed with diet and exercise.
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          • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
            Originally Posted by CapForge View Post

            It isn't about how they are going to make money, it is that they are seeking to make money easily, with very little effort or by adding any real value to the process. Whether it is online, MLM, gambling secrets or whatever it is the same mentality that drives these buyers. The marketers didn't create the demand they are just catering to it.
            Yeah, and pimps prey on weak willed women, too. Catering to an unhealthy, unattainable desire - especially when it's a false solution - is predatory. I know those desires are there. Mankind is constantly at odds with the animal remnants of his ancestry that control his behaviors. Many marketing tricks are based entirely on taking advantage of these "glitches" in our neural circuitry.

            But it's possible to do that AND help them. Think of a a sleight of hand artist - he could cheat at cards and make money, or he could perform as a magician and make money. One of those options creates value, one destroys it. Same exact skillset. One decieves, one enlightens.

            What you say is true. But just because the conditions you state exist doesn't mean it's okay to feed on them.

            Originally Posted by CapForge View Post

            As BlogBrowser pointed out, there already is a well known, free and effective way to lose weight- eat less and exercise. But that's hard, and many people would prefer a way to lose weight that doesn't require them to put in much effort or give up eating foods they like, which is why the diet industry is a multi-billion dollar annual business and why Lap-Band surgeries and other procedures have become so popular- many people would rather submit to surgery with a possible risk of death than try to succeed with diet and exercise.
            Sure - but you make a distinction. Lap-Band surgeries actually WORK. It's not a pill of ash and caffeine that won't do jack. That actually is an example of what I meant, because it's a solution that actually provides value. It's not the *best* example what with the risk of death, but it parallels what I meant in the first place.

            It's not hard to leave people better than you found them.

            And the whole shepherd thing is especially great to use as a model in the IM field, because as someone said with their free coaching deal, you can actually teach people to make more money, which you can then invite them to spend with you in order to make more money, which they can... etc. It's just more direct than a lot of other industries.
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  • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
    Hey Tim,

    Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately. I don't say that lightly or as a put down. It just seems that every time I come in here you have a new "rant" thread up and running. But the thing is, they are all basically stating the same thing.

    The truth is, SOME IMers have been this way at least for the past 8-9 yrs that I know of - thru rain, sleat, snow or shine, but not all or even the majority of them. Or maybe it's the fact that I seem to be on the right lists, so don't see these types of newsletters.

    The fact is, if I keep getting them, I unsubscribe quickly, then go about doing what I believe to be the right thing, and that is to treat people right and to give them the very best I have to give.

    To me, it's not about what everyone else is doing at the moment. It's about what I am doing at the moment that enhances my business, and helps other people to learn and grow that matter the most.

    If you really want to make IM better where other people get real value, begin with you, and let the rest of them fall to the waste side. You have no control over what they do, but you do have control over what you do. Ranting isn't going to help much in the end. You can get more bang by being the example.


    Mary
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    • Profile picture of the author Trader54
      Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

      Hey Tim,

      Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately. I don't say that lightly or as a put down. It just seems that every time I come in here you have a new "rant" thread up and running. But the thing is, they are all basically stating the same thing.

      The truth is, SOME IMers have been this way at least for the past 8-9 yrs that I know of - thru rain, sleat, snow or shine, but not all or even the majority of them. Or maybe it's the fact that I seem to be on the right lists, so don't see these types of newsletters.

      The fact is, if I keep getting them, I unsubscribe quickly, then go about doing what I believe to be the right thing, and that is to treat people right and to give them the very best I have to give.

      To me, it's not about what everyone else is doing at the moment. It's about what I am doing at the moment that enhances my business, and helps other people to learn and grow that matter the most.

      If you really want to make IM better where other people get real value, begin with you, and let the rest of them fall to the waste side. You have no control over what they do, but you do have control over what you do. Ranting isn't going to help much in the end. You can get more bang by being the example.


      Mary
      Very good quality post.

      If the case is so offer "Quality" and dominate the market. That tactic works in every business. The more you feel crap is being sold the bigger the opportunity for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
        Originally Posted by Trader54 View Post

        Very good quality post.

        If the case is so offer "Quality" and dominate the market. That tactic works in every business. The more you feel crap is being sold the bigger the opportunity for you.
        Hi Trader,

        That is so true, and it works well.

        If we do the very best we can individually while others are pushing the junk, 9 out of 10 cases we'll be the ones people run to for the value in the end.
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        • Profile picture of the author sevenish
          Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

          If we do the very best we can individually while others are pushing the junk, 9 out of 10 cases we'll be the ones people run to for the value in the end.
          I would like to believe this is true, but I'm not so sure. I guess that's why I appreciate this thread.

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          • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
            Originally Posted by sevenish View Post

            I would like to believe this is true, but I'm not so sure. I guess that's why I appreciate this thread.

            Believe what you will Sevenish, Lol you'll learn one of these days.

            Btw, encouraging people to "rant away" isn't the best thing whether you appreciate the thread or not.

            I appreciate Tim's enthusiasm and dedication for the cause, but I know that ranting doesn't help the cause, it only clogs up the discussion with info people already know about. Matter of fact, it is falling on deaf ears (blinded eyes in this case).

            I've also cometo know that being the example, and paying attention to what you do, while offering value is the higher road to take that will bring in the best cutomers, and more money in the end. It is also more credible.
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            • Profile picture of the author sevenish
              Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

              Believe what you will Sevenish, Lol you'll learn one of these days.

              Btw, encouraging people to "rant away" isn't the best thing whether you appreciate the thread or not.

              I appreciate Tim's enthusiasm and dedication for the cause, but I know that ranting doesn't help the cause, it only clogs up the discussion with info people already know about. Matter of fact, it is falling on deaf ears (blinded eyes in this case).

              I've also cometo know that being the example, and paying attention to what you do, while offering value is the higher road to take that will bring in the best cutomers, and more money in the end. It is also more credible.
              Point taken.
              "Be the change you want to see in the world". (Gandhi)
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

      Hey Tim,

      Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately.
      You're right. And the reason behind this is simply the fact that I'm tired of what I'm seeing.

      We can talk about how there are good people and so forth but the problem I'm ranting about is real and deep running.

      Bev's comments below are right on. I know because I've been told "from the horse's mouth" some of these long-time big hitters are seeing massive drops in their sales.

      How do they respond? By smiling and peddling more bullshit.

      Most of the people in this industry are isolated in their own little bubbles. My frustration comes from what I have seen and heard directly from some of the so-called industry leaders; many of these "gurus" are people I can pick up the phone and call or send a personal email to.

      I'm just fed up with it and wanted to blow off some steam. Ultimately I'll just end up phasing out of this sector and not looking back.

      I actually have a book nearly finished that details some of the more absurd points. Whether or not a publisher that participates in this market will want to print it is another story.

      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      One of the other problems is that anyone coming into this now don't know they are being sold hype and BS.

      II am guessing here, but I wonder if some of those marketers we know well and have trusted in the past are finding it hard to sell so they are trying anything to make a quick buck.
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      • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
        Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

        You're right. And the reason behind this is simply the fact that I'm tired of what I'm seeing.

        We can talk about how there are good people and so forth but the problem I'm ranting about is real and deep running.

        Bev's comments below are right on. I know because I've been told "from the horse's mouth" some of these long-time big hitters are seeing massive drops in their sales.

        How do they respond? By smiling and peddling more bullshit.

        Most of the people in this industry are isolated in their own little bubbles. My frustration comes from what I have seen and heard directly from some of the so-called industry leaders; many of these "gurus" are people I can pick up the phone and call or send a personal email to.

        I'm just fed up with it and wanted to blow off some steam. Ultimately I'll just end up phasing out of this sector and not looking back.

        I actually have a book nearly finished that details some of the more absurd points. Whether or not a publisher that participates in this market will want to print it is another story.
        Tim,

        Be that as it may, you still cannot change them as I pointed out earlier. You can olny change yourself, how you handle it, and how you run your business in the end.

        I know what problems some of the other marketers are having just as well as you do, but maybe they will wise up soon. If they don't that's their problem. You'll be one of the ones that make out better in the end, and so will your subscribers and customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author sevenish
    Tim,

    Again, I really do appreciate your sentiment and couldn't agree more. It's just that I've seen most of these biz opp things as no more than predatory horseshit aimed at the most vulnerable for years. If I can see it, I don't see how anyone can be shocked ... SHOCKED.

    I know there is legitimate material and programs out there, and I know you're one of the legitimate vendors. But as you've pointed out, there exist exponentially more snake oil sales persons. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. All you can do is keep posting/ranting and keep on being one of the good guys.

    See my sig for further details.

    Best wishes to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
    it is very interesting, howsome people just seem not to understand the concept of marketing. Marketing is not a numbers game.

    As you said, you have to provide value, you have to be natural, your clients absolutely have to receive something that they can actually put into action ( or should I say readers...) you cannot just be going around, forcing people into buying stuff. This will not work.

    Sebastian
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    • Profile picture of the author JustVisiting
      Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

      it is very interesting, howsome people just seem not to understand the concept of marketing. Marketing is not a numbers game.
      Hi Sebastian

      Marketing IS a numbers game.


      Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

      you cannot just be going around, forcing people into buying stuff. This will not work.
      How do you 'force' people into buying?
      Subliminal advertising, hypnosis?:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    One of the other problems is that anyone coming into this now don't know they are being sold hype and BS.

    I'm fed up with marketers (well known ones) who say this is brand new, never seen before, when it has been sold as is for the past few years. They don't even attempt to make changes to it.

    Now a new marketer is going to buy, and believe that it is new, and well what happens next, we all know.

    I saw someone this week selling a package which originally came from the "Well Loved" Cody Moya. They were saying how wonderful it was and how it would make a person thousands. Most of that stuff was so old it wasn't funny. They listed them all which is why I know.

    The emails that some are sending are also crazy. They have in the subject line, click here to download your purchase, I bought this for you, and when you click they have bought it, yes, but are selling it to you with rights.

    I am guessing here, but I wonder if some of those marketers we know well and have trusted in the past are finding it hard to sell so they are trying anything to make a quick buck.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    There will always be shammers and scammers.....and they will always sell to someone because there will also always be greedy, lazy people who want so badly to believe that they can make fortunes with little or no work.

    There will always be idiots who will sell warmed over hash by claiming it's new and different polluting the pool for those who actually do sell what is new and different.

    And it was always that way and always will be. The only thing you can do about the lack of common sense, integrity, and moral fiber of marketers is to strive to be better than they are. Make a name selling quality, and make a reputation giving quality service and don't worry about the scumbags. They eventually will take care of themselves in one fashion or the other.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
    Funnily enough, I have just posted a rant of my own. I think a lot of the problem has to do with why people get into Internet marketing in the first place. The primary reason seems to be to 'make money' which makes people vulnerable to get rich offers:

    What I Hate About The Internet Marketing Niche | Kikabink News
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    News, comment, research, tips and more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Guess i am on tghe other side of the river, smiling.

    Just started a free coaching, one month, daily videos + free reports on how to really make some money using blog networks. A FREE COACHING.

    75% of users are 35 years plus.

    I WILL be selling them advanced methods next 3 months BUT i am teaching them to make a few dollars a day with free tools.

    I feel good about it dam it, wish somebody coached me on IM with free tools. But yeah, lots of oportunities right now.
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  • Profile picture of the author tessmac9708
    There is a solution!

    Kill the copywriters. Make it illegal to sell benefits!

    "Buy my product. It comes in a really nice looking colourful box, made out of cardboard. Its quite shinny, and some of your friends will remark on how yellow it looks. To get the maximum benefit, you will also need to buy my brown product, but I'll be mailing you about this later, when you have some more money to spend"

    Please PM me if you'd like one!
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    • Profile picture of the author tessmac9708
      Wow 3 sold already. Only 7 left..be quick!
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  • Profile picture of the author imburne
    You know whats annoying me is I need 15 posts to PM anyone just because I am interested in advertising. I guess its a typical vbulletin thing... Also at the same time there is a offer on another board and I need 30 posts to even say that I bought the guys program.. So I cant PM him or post in that thread. Spam filters.. Ok..


    Besides that I LOVE this place!!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Marcel Pamphile
    Every single lucrative industry has this problem.

    The medical industry is full of fraud, doctors use material marketed to them by Billion dollar pharmaceutical companies who only care about $$ and not getting rid of a disease .

    Copywriters like to pretend their product or service will solve 80% of the buyers money problems.
    After getting burned enough times, people realize life isn't a bed of roses, some skill, money, time and discipline is required.

    So are we a part of the solution or problem ?
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewjmoody
    As somebody who's been taken in by all the hype before and bought lots of products, I can understand where you are coming from.

    I think the main problem is many of the products are actually not well constructed so unless you have a phd in science, then sometimes its difficult to actually "implement".

    Right now, I am trying to focus, unsubscribe from as many newsletters as possible and just do a small number of things - rather than trying to win everybody at everything.

    Matthew
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  • Profile picture of the author BigBenForCanton
    It's one big ball of oil, really it is. Everybody is selling the same stuff to new and unsuspecting people, who in turn, sell it to new an unsuspecting people.

    Check out the thread I posted in the 'JV Forum' about anybody broadening their horizons. Not one response. Hysterical. If that's not proof-positive of the state of IM marketing, then what is? What a joke.

    Maybe some of our pop-philosophers can weigh in with some deep thoughts. Jack Handy called he wants his thoughts back.
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  • Profile picture of the author IGotTheNews
    I liked it when you say "Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur." This statement I would have to say is the truth with a good deal of companies in marketing. They don't want to tell you right off the bat that you will have to swindle and lie to people to get a buck. There have been companies in which I have been in that told me that if I would sign up for the book of the month and the CD's I would benefit more. I did so, and found that the book was dumb and offered no advice and the CD's were people who have success in the business and are bragging of their nice things. It seems that there are many companies who just need bodies to fill and don't care for them to know the truth of the whole business. It is kind of sickening.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrainDance
    Well said Tim You said everything I believe and have said, yet much less eloquently.
    Does anyone actually want to help someone succeed at any level or simply just take advantage of the desperation people are feeling.

    I hate those big launches, the MASSIVE prices for reworked content, the 'supergurus' baiting people on. I love the little guy who has an actual product they believe in , whether it a niche or a service or a product. helping those people is what internet marketing should be about.

    I've only been doing eMarketing design specific work for about a year, so I'm not the titan of IM and don't want to be BUT I believe,
    the only people that make money on those ger rich quick launches and products are the ones selling them to the people buying them.

    5 yrs ago or so I bought my first ebook about how to make money on ebay. It worked! Gave great tips on different aspects of the ebay site, the best days to post and close auctions and so on. Now that to me is a great product.

    I don't have a disdain for the IM Niche, I know there are honestly sincere people just doing the best they can with what they have to offer. I have a disdain for megamarketers and the hype with the ridiculous prices and empty promises.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
    Take a Moment to Read the Following

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    We're quite possibly entering the most severe global economic downturn in 75 years. This isn't a guess based on the latest headlines, it's extrapolation from sound demographics that anyone can find and analyze on world markets over the past century or so.
    Expansion/Contraction, Tim, nothing new. It's referred to metaphorically in the biblical story about Joseph and his Coat of Many colors. He warns the Pharoah of 7 fat years and 7 lean years. Unless you're an advisor to the Pharoah, changing the masses is going to be pretty tough. The best way to change them is to just set the right example and just allow those who find you to learn what they can from it.

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    This means potentially massive opportunities across various sectors for those willing to look at things from this perspective. And it also means even more people will be coming online in search of genuine opportunities to increase prosperity.
    You make it sound so casual. In actuality, they'll be racing online like lemmings hoping to find gold in them thar hills... it'll be another gold rush and since the internet is really in the mind, they'll be exploring new areas of their mind to see if they can find new veins of gold (creativity).

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    What will they find when they arrive? Probably more bullshit and nonsense.
    lol, this is just a tad negative but absolutely understandable. It doesn't even consider the fact that these hordes will be bringing quite a bit of bullshit and nonsense with them. Perhaps you should be watching out for them rather than trying to protect them from...?

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    I saw the very same copy and paste affiliate promotions come in today from two people I'm friends with and I just had this moment of clarity.
    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    The "Internet marketing" sector just gets more absurd every month doesn't it?
    I went through this back in 2002-2003, others with more experience went through it earlier. Some of us go through some version of it at some point but it's a good sign, actually. Having the shocking realization of the kind you're having is a sign that you've made it past a certain point... it signals that you have longevity. You're now just going to have to find a way to cope with what you've seen and make the best of it.

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur.

    How many major product launches with blockbuster movie titles and little true substance have we seen in the past six months? How many of the average users of these systems have made even the first dollar in profit?
    I've got a question for you, Tim.

    Where and when did anyone ever tell you that internet marketing was about "leading horses to water and making them drink?" You can't change human nature. You can only change yourself. Right now, for example, I have no expectations of what you'll do with this reply. How can I? How can I force you to change your "level" so that you "understand" me better? Perhaps you will understand me better if I point out to you that just because we are in the middle of an internet marketing forum doesn't mean you aren't talking to Xth generation victims of the madness you describe.

    And you want to tell the old recruits to "give the new guys a break?"

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    This is just insane and it keeps on going. I realize most opportunity seekers are jokers looking for a handout but even a small % of sincere seekers means there are thousands and thousands of people who really do want solid info.

    But they'll probably get sideswiped by this infatuation list owners have with the latest and greatest crap to get rolled out.
    And maybe they won't, Tim. I think it's pretty shaky when the lynch pin of your whole concern is that "perhaps some sincere seekers amidst the tumultuous masses of upcoming newbies will also be caught up in the madness and swept away."

    And perhaps they won't. Again, though I'm not a biblical scholar, the story about Moses obtaining the freedom of the Hebrews, then leading them into the "desert" for 40 years and building the nation of Israel is one heck of a story that can be understood, and applied, metaphorically.

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...
    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post


    "I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."
    If they don't want to plug into it, then their psychological taste buds will reject it and continue looking until they find what tastes right for their particular disposition.

    ???????

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    This is extremely bizarre and yet the people involved carry on as if nothing absurd is being perpetuated day in and day out. It is extremely likely the IM bubble will burst even further than it has already in recent years and this whole silly party of "we'll all just sell B2B stuff to each other and then nobody has to bother with real consumer products" will be over.
    Tim, you're awesome. I'm glad you're having this experience. There's something more to it that'll become obvious soon enough. But, for now, what you just said in the last paragraph is a classic "linear thinking" mistake that is made by 99% of the people I read... they overlook the fact that some of us COMBINE methods across different venues. We're not all selling solely to IM'ers but that is certainly one stream of income.


    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    Maybe the impending influx of new people as a result of the downturn will help initiate change.
    Certainly, but not necessarily the kind you're thinking of. It'll be like Obama-style change where you say you're going to pull the troops out of Iraq but then you surge them in Afghanistan. For many people, it's going to seem like madness for a while but it'll settle down again and some of us will come out on top. You just have to understand the forces of nature and be prepared. Build your ark, man.


    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    Many of these people will be unlike opp seekers in the past; folks who lost their job in the crunch really need legitimate business options and it'll be interesting to see their response to the mayhem that currently passes as valid home business information.
    But, unlike many in the past who DIDN'T lose their jobs but were just sold on the dream of ditching their bosses and spending more time with their families at a ski lodge or some tropical island, these newcomers will have a REAL HUNGER that will drive a stronger FOCUS and greater determination. And probably a whole lot less tolerance for the bullshit to which you are, understandably, referring.



    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    Does this rant make sense to anyone else in here? Am I alone in my disdain for the current state of the mainstream "Internet Marketing Niche"?
    Hell, yeah it makes sense. But it's not the whole situation. It's just a SNAPSHOT... like in quantum physics there's reference to "the particle" (the snapshot) and "the wave" (the process) and the ultimate difference is your "level of being", the level of consciousness of the one who OBSERVES.

    If you have any more questions, fire away.

    Eric
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg Cooksley
      Hey Eric,

      I like the way you put that.....especially the part about being the "advisor to the pharoah"......

      Just one thing I'd add - Iwas talking to a friend of mine yesterday and saying that "we should stop complaining about the state of {insert whatever} and actually start to do something about it" for instance "why complain about the government when you didn't even go and vote yourself"

      Regards

      Greg

      Regards

      Greg
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      • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
        Originally Posted by Greg Cooksley View Post

        Hey Eric,

        I like the way you put that.....especially the part about being the "advisor to the pharoah"......

        Just one thing I'd add - Iwas talking to a friend of mine yesterday and saying that "we should stop complaining about the state of {insert whatever} and actually start to do something about it" for instance "why complain about the government when you didn't even go and vote yourself"
        Hi Greg,

        Thanks for your kind reply.

        We can actually build on your statement there, if you don't mind me trying. You see the "should" statement, right? Similarly, a friend once quoted a source as saying, "If we can we should, and if we should, we MUST..!".

        But what it takes to get there is an interesting matter in itself because of the law of inertia. And "complaining" is a form of buffering, like, for example, when one takes an ibuprofen to make the pain disappear. Complaining buffers a sense of powerlessness and dulls the pain of just being fully present to it.

        By not complaining (not even softly to one's self) but, instead, suffering consciously, we recover vital energy from our negative emotions which then goes towards breaking the inertia. Another way of putting this is that one needn't actually "DO" something... but by NOT DOING "the complaining", there develops sufficient energy for people to spend on what is, intrinsically, known to be the right action.

        I hope that's understandable.

        Best wishes, Greg, thanks again,
        Eric
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        • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

          And "complaining" is a form of buffering, like, for example, when one takes an ibuprofen to make the pain disappear. Complaining buffers a sense of powerlessness and dulls the pain of just being fully present to it.
          There is a huge difference in what you define as complaining and what I'm doing. If it makes you feel profound to look on in that manner then have at it but the FACT is any real transformation that goes beyond self begins with candor and open discussion.

          Open discussion is what began a little event you may recall some 200 years ago that historians refer to as the American Revolution. And while most people will respond to my statements (here and elsewhere) with something to the tune of "well that's just what marketing is all about" at least a couple of people will see the value, and hence the sentiment gains momentum in the greater consciousness.

          And that my friend is one example of how anyone can impact the whole in a positive manner.

          Onward and upward.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chase Beach
        Dear Tim Whiston,

        I have one small tiny point to add. for what it is worth.

        As you said, "We are possibly in the Second Greatest Depression", and to market the junk and reprocess junk to buyers is not wise marketing. I would like to ask, How you came to believe we are in this depression.

        I say that a great marketer Sold you on this.....

        Yes, we are having more of a global impact with global selling, but I hope you can see through the smiles, waves, great speeches and negative news, soon and see we are not in such bad shape.

        I applaud your point of junk peddling. Prior to the web, junk peddlers could not reach large markets with such little cost. Today, for $20, they can reach millions to peddle their re puked junk.

        "The Peddler, is a magician of words, and everyone learns the tricks, a Marketer is an artist of painting a dream and takes years to master."

        Chase
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  • Profile picture of the author hotlinkz
    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

    What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

    "I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."

    ???????

    Tim,

    This phenomena has been accurately described in the past as Internet Marketing Incest.

    However, you can't load the full responsibility on those pushing the crap. Some of the responsibility must be apportioned to those who continually buy the re-hashed drivel of which you speak.

    Greed and laziness often lead buyers to thinking they can begin earning thousands and possibly millions by skipping the most important aspects of establishing a successful and functional business (hard work, focus and perseverance).

    How long will it go on? Forever...or at least for as long as man walks the earth. It's in our nature. Case in point...we know without a doubt that war has taken lives, wreaked havoc, and caused misery for untold millions; but even the impending threat of death caused by wars doesn't stop us from declaring and going to war.

    One ray of hope in this IM madness is that it does clear the way for those who are willing to impart genuine knowledge by offering legitimate and viable opportunities.

    Excellent post by the way...

    Calvin
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  • Profile picture of the author Janus
    Lots of good comments.

    IM certainly has its charlatans just like financial sales and other areas. Fortunately most IM frauds are considerly less than what is seen in direct sales. Yes everyone gets affected to some degree by the actions of others but that doesn't always have to be the negative side. Do your part and you help make the system better although it won't seem like you're having any impact.

    The one thing we count on is CHANGE. We don't know the who, what or when with any certainly or the speed of it but we know it is constantly occurring. Quality (value added) is what seems to persevere in the long run.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louis Raven
    It's not rehashed crap if it's the first time of reading it

    I don't condone buying plr and selling as it is with a "brand new secret" tag put on it but I've seen many Warriors revamp old work and make it 20x better.

    I think my post went off topic lol?

    regards,
    Louis
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  • Profile picture of the author Warriorcoach1
    Hi Tim,

    I've always been somewhere between amused and distraught by the "internet marketing niche"...

    You have a bunch of marketers selling marketing know-how to wannabe marketers who in turn want to sell marketing know-how to future wannabe marketers.

    I've been at more than one internet marketing conference where someone in the audience has asked the pointed question, "Do any of you guys sell 'real' products and not just products designed to help you market other products?"

    Because, of course, there are lots of us in various niches whose business is not primarily selling marketing knowledge for its own sake. And if you pay attention to the internet marketing niche for too long, you might begin to wonder if it's really possible to make a buck selling anything besides marketing!

    Add to this the off-the-charts hype that characterizes sales copy in this niche (hype that would get the rest of us tarred and feathered in our own niches) and you begin to see how artificial the whole thing has become.

    The rant stoppeth here
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  • Profile picture of the author alexander13
    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post


    Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur.
    Be careful with absolutes like "nobody"

    because there are people who care. Admittedly there are lots of bs'ers out there. The 80/20 rule definitely applies so find that 20% who do care and listen to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    I agree there is a lot of fluff and foam in emails from the gurus. It's all the same stuff. But there is an opportunity there. People get so tired of getting that stuff that if you can offer some genuine value in your emails people will respond. I wouldn't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there sending out quality emails--it would make my job all that much harder.

    One other thing about the bullsh*t products being sold for high prices. One thing to remember is that the gurus have huge advantages over a newbie, even a newbie with a far superior product. The gurus have huge lists, they have contacts with the big JV partners, and they understand the process of a successful product launch. The big guys can make a ton of money with a mediocre product because of this.

    I guess there is a certain amount of "paying your dues" to get into the big leagues. It doesn't happen overnight. Great marketing will beat out great products (with less than great marketing) every time.

    The other thing is that everyone out there wants to buy a program that will make them a fortune without doing any work. Becoming successful online is a process built upon accretion.

    People have to realize (and they don't) that when you buy a product you learn some good stuff hopefully, but that a real education comes from learning a little from this guy, learning a little from that guy, and learning a whole lot on your own. I have bought tons of products and I have learned something from every one of them, but I haven't learned everything from any one of them. There isn't, and there never will be a "learn it all right here" product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
    Tim,

    I literally shoveled bull shit, cow shit, horse shit and chicken shit the better part of the day today... and I didn't mind one bit... it's going right on my gardens

    Seriously Tim, if this stuff is bothering you this much, go outside, find some other work to balance you out a bit. Find a farm to work at, or a martial arts dojo to get some exercise (I recommend Arnis/Escrima).

    If I didn't have some physical/manual labor/exercise, I would go nuts working only online... I completely understand your frustrations, but there is not much you can do about those who frustrate you.

    "The way you change the world is through one random act of kindness at a time." (from Even Almighty I believe...)

    .jrd

    P.S. My biggest frustration today was when I smacked my thumb HARD with my hammer... yea, that thumbnail will definitely fall off in a few days, I can tell by the black/purple color and how much it hurts... but I have nobody to blame but myself for that one.
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    Join The Future: Telekinetic Marketing

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  • Profile picture of the author bingbong
    It will continue to happen as long as money can be made. It's pretty sad. Sometimes pretty hard to tell quality from repackaged product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Tims premiss is sell them what they need Not what they want...

    Recipe for failure, always has been always will be

    Find a hungry market
    create a product they want

    Its consumer driven...

    Originally Posted by Tim Whiston
    What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

    "I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."


    Tim this is what the IM niche is... I dont get what the beef is here

    The IM niche is a niche that sells how to make money online products to people who want to make money online

    And pretty much everything put out will work if used as intended. Its much like the argument traffic exchanges are crap and dont work, but I can point you in the direction of thousands of people that make them work everyday

    !00's of people that make or have made 6 and 7 figures using them.

    Most of the people bitching are those that dont follow the instructions or try shortcuts for a week then comdemn it.

    Your pissing into the wind dude... your just going to get wet shoes
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  • Profile picture of the author richard515680
    I am glad others think the same way I do. Perhaps one way to disuade this rehash of old info (which I have read is encouraged by some gurus) is to use the refund guarantee offered on the sales pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author maxhomebits
    There is so much crap out there that I just switch off now, and for about 90% of emails that I get from IMs get's trashed. You will never be able to change the landscape for the vast majority of surfers that are looking for the answer to all their woes. My own impression is that it's only 1 or 2 % of IMs that are making vast amounts of cash the rest are just pure crap. Hard work and durability are the answers to success, and the sooner that people realise this the quicker the Industry get's cleaned up.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    This thread has been an interesting read...

    I loved Keith's brilliant analogy of the predatory wolf that eventually eats his own ecosystem. That was just great, really!

    I also really dig Eric's thoughtful and deep reframe of the issues at work -- and I fully agree with him that much of the OP's angst is somewhat unfairly misplaced on the shoulders of marketers without proper consideration of the very demands made by those to whom they market.

    Paul Myers has a great saying that's particularly applicable:

    Sell 'em what they WANT.
    Give 'em what they BOUGHT.
    Sneak in what they NEED.
    It's always easier to point to the failure of the masses as prima facie proof that something sucks than it is to accept the successes of the few who in fact prove the exact opposite.

    Surely we can all agree that some very powerful ideas DO cut through all the noise and have had a truly transformative effect on "real" people's lives (even if it's not your bag of Doritos).

    There's plenty of GREAT information available, and people are and will always be buying it. But most of them don't come to forums or spend time blogging about it. They just enjoy the experience they bought and move forward.

    Those are the people you see filling seats at live events but never hear from online. The custom transom manufacturer who turns over 4 million a year in his business... @ 32% profit.

    That guy is happy as a pig in the mud but he'd sure like to grow sales to 6M and keep the same margins or maybe squeeze out a few more points where he can. For him, a trip to San Diego or an SEO product that costs as much as your mortgage payment is a genuine and significant opportunity, just like the sales letter said it was...

    There's real, lasting, meaningful success happening for people out there every day using the very same stuff that pisses other people off.

    The END USERS are the drivers of that success -- not the products they buy, or the gurus they follow, or the tactics and strategies that they implement. They are self-responsible, action takers that are AWARE and have a finely tuned sense of acuity. They observe and respond.

    Of course, you noticed that I didn't say "watch and react"...

    Contrast that to the mindset of the average help desk trouble ticket or refund request.

    The pattern is not unpredictable.

    Sometimes, it bears repeating that the little old world of Internet marketing does go far and well outside the realm of $97 info-products and well beyond the $1997 guru launch products.. and even beyond the $10k coaching and events. I made my bones selling very niche specific services that run from $695 - $12k with an AVERAGE sale of $6k+.

    High level actionable information on that level is very, very different from actionable material as one guy selling stuff via Paypal -- even for ME, having done it both ways.

    Leverage is the difference. It's what newbies should always be looking for and it's what established, growing businesses already have.

    If you buy something, even a stupidly simple $17 ebook, that gives you new leverage, then it's a smart buy.

    If you buy something, even an ingeniously conceived, planned and executed multimillion dollar launch product, that does NOT give you that leverage, then it's a waste of attention and money.

    But most of all... if you BUY something, USE IT. Do something with it.

    This got long fast... I'm out.

    Best,

    Brian
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  • Profile picture of the author lnardi01
    Hey, if you want to get rich online, sell ebooks about selling ebooks to people who want to get rich selling ebooks to people selling ebooks.

    And you'd better start soon.
    That's one of the most amusing posts I have seen recently. Additionally, IM is a numbers game, more is better.

    Some people are scammers and take the money and run, but some of us do offer good programs and products to people looking to make money. Haven't you seen that statistical video that was circulating around and showed up on Dan Kennedy's blog a couple months ago? There are billions, yes billions of people joining the online community daily. There is alot of money out there. There will always be snake oil salesmen, but you don't have to be part of that. Stand tall, give content worthy of respect and you should be able to reap nicely from what you sow.

    If all the lemmings jump, I want to be left standing in the back, cause I ain't going.
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