I Need A "Yeah You're Right Jason"

35 replies
Hey Warriors.

I'm having a guilty conscious for no good reason I think... I kinda need someone to agree with me on this so I'll feel better. lol...

So I hired this freelancer. A good guy.

He did some work on the project.

I e-mailed him and said I'm going another route with my project, but I'll pay you for the work you've already done.

And he gets all mad at me, says go piss off, and says he'll be infringing on my copyright... basically selling the stuff I was having him create for me based on my material.

So... this guy's mad at me even though I'm saying I'm willing to pay him for work that's been done.

...Say something that makes me feel better, please. lol... Or if you think I'm wrong, please tell me why because I don't understand.

EDITED: I ended up paying the dude and mending the relationship, so we're good.

Thanks everyone again for helping me understand the situation better.
#yeah youre right jason
  • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
    Nothing wrong with that - a freelancer ought to expect this kind of thing. It doesn't happen a lot, but it will eventually happen to any one working freelance. It shouldn't be a big deal, and he shouldn't be burning bridges.
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by Justin Jordan View Post

      Nothing wrong with that - a freelancer ought to expect this kind of thing. It doesn't happen a lot, but it will eventually happen to any one working freelance. It shouldn't be a big deal, and he shouldn't be burning bridges.
      Thanks dude. I'm feeling better already.
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      • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
        I have that effect on people. It's my calming simian smile.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    Maybe he needed the money and was PO'ed when he got pinched. I take these things in stride, much worse has happened to me. BTW, if you did agree on a price and project, then it is not OK to back out.

    TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
      "BTW, if you did agree on a price and project, then it is not OK to back out."

      I disagree. Sometimes things just don't work out, and a project dies before completion. The freelancer ought to have some kind of kill fee in place for this sort of thing.
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

      Maybe he needed the money and was PO'ed when he got pinched. I take these things in stride, much worse has happened to me. BTW, if you did agree on a price and project, then it is not OK to back out.

      TomG.
      Hmmm... OK, thanks.

      I'm starting to see where he may be coming from.

      I notified him way before the deadline... I can see what you're saying though Tommy.

      I think I'll just pay him for the whole job. It's only a couple hundred bucks anyhow.

      He sounded like he had more work than he can shake a stick at because his credentials are huge, but that may not reflect how much work he's actually getting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I agree with Tommy - if you agreed to a full project and he's been working on it - it's a slap to him to say "I'm going a different direction". He may take it to mean you found someone else to work with - or he may have turned down other work to make time for your project.

      Maybe you're the second person to cancel work today and he was just frustrated. I don't agree that outsourcers should expect projects to be canceled - especially not good ones that you can count on to produce.

      I'm not going to say you're right - because I don't know what deal you had with him in the first place. If he had called you and said "something better has come up - I don't want to work on this any more" - would you have been upset?

      It's your project - if you think your decision was necessary, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I agree with Tommy - if you agreed to a full project and he's been working on it - it's a slap to him to say "I'm going a different direction". He may take it to mean you found someone else to work with - or he may have turned down other work to make time for your project.

        Maybe you're the second person to cancel work today and he was just frustrated. I don't agree that outsourcers should expect projects to be canceled - especially not good ones that you can count on to produce.

        I'm not going to say you're right - because I don't know what deal you had with him in the first place. If he had called you and said "something better has come up - I don't want to work on this any more" - would you have been upset?

        It's your project - if you think your decision was necessary, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

        kay
        Thanks for all the feedback everyone and helping me understand why this guy lashed out at me...

        Makes total sense now.

        I believe I was in the wrong in my ignorance and non-empathetic(ness ?)...

        I meant well, but whatever... some things you just don't know that you don't know.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          ...and we all just learn as we go and do the best we can.
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          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.
          It takes nothing away from a human to be kind to an animal.
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        • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
          Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

          Thanks for all the feedback everyone and helping me understand why this guy lashed out at me...

          Makes total sense now.

          I believe I was in the wrong in my ignorance and non-empathetic(ness ?)...

          I meant well, but whatever... some things you just don't know that you don't know.
          Well if you ARE going to pay the full fee, make sure you get the work. Don't just pay him out of guilt, that would be a waste of your money.

          TomG.
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          • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
            Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

            Well if you ARE going to pay the full fee, make sure you get the work. Don't just pay him out of guilt, that would be a waste of your money.

            TomG.
            TRUE... That's what I'll try to do.

            The guy's so mad at me right now though, that he's not even talking to me. I said I'd pay him in full for the job. No reply.

            ...Thanks for your relationships with freelancers coaching.
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            • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
              Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

              TRUE... That's what I'll try to do.

              The guy's so mad at me right now though, that he's not even talking to me. I said I'd pay him in full for the job. No reply.

              ...Thanks for your relationships with freelancers coaching.
              Jason,

              Yeah, but he may be in bed, so don't assume anything at this point. I know it's after midnight here so ...

              Btw, I agree with Tommy there. Pay him for the work, but not for the guilts.
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              • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

                Jason,

                Yeah, but he may be in bed, so don't assume anything at this point. I know it's after midnight here so ...

                Btw, I agree with Tommy there. Pay him for the work, but not for the guilts.
                Thanks.

                Will do buckaroo.
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          • Profile picture of the author REHughes
            Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

            Well if you ARE going to pay the full fee, make sure you get the work. Don't just pay him out of guilt, that would be a waste of your money.

            TomG.

            Just a thought from an outside point of view. I'm not really sure that would be a waste of your money. Sometimes in pursuit of what is right, we get blinded by greed, and to ask this programmer to go back and do what you originally agreed to for the same price now would seem selfish to me.

            But, that is just my point of view.

            You sound like an honest guy - I don't know you.
            I'm just making an observation.

            But, from the sound of your first couple of replies, I think you already knew the best thing to do, Right?

            It's not an issue of getting what's mine, or anything like that. It's business - honest business - and you learned a lesson from a simple mistake - and it was just that- a mistake, not intentional.

            So, my suggestion is if it won't break you financially, go ahead and pay him, repair the relationship if you had one and move on.

            (And just be sure to list it on your taxes as ADDITIONAL SCREW-UPS)

            Just my honest opinion, guys!

            Have a great nite, or mornin, or whatever.

            Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
    Hey Jason,

    Out of all the time I've spent here in the forum, I've never seen someone post a thread where they are asking for an ego boost lol.

    Seriously, you didn't doanything wrong from what you wrote in your OP. It's just that some people can't get over themselves!

    Btw, if I did fault someone, it would be the freelancer who threatened you about stealing your work. Copyright infringment is a serious offense. So remember to copyright the thing. :p


    Mary
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post


      Btw, if I did fault someone, it would be the freelancer who threatened you about stealing your work. Copyright infringment is a serious offense. So remember to copyright the thing. :p


      Mary
      Oh yeah, not worried about that.

      If that every happened, then I'm ready for a full-on legal assault.
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      • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
        Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

        Oh yeah, not worried about that.

        If that every happened, then I'm ready for a full-on legal assault.
        Jason,

        Uhumm ... I think Andy is right about freelancers having the rights to whatever they create unless there was an established agreement saying otherwise. I know I always have an agreement drawn up when I outsource to freelancers, so didn't think about it when I posted.

        Anyway, do what you gotta do.
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        • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
          Originally Posted by mmurtha View Post

          Jason,

          Uhumm ... I think Andy is right about freelancers having the rights to whatever they create unless there was an established agreement saying otherwise. I know I always have an agreement drawn up when I outsource to freelancers, so didn't think about it when I posted.

          Anyway, do what you gotta do.
          An agreement would be a good idea to use for now on. Thanks for the idea. Everything normally goes smoothly for me and working with freelancers. I try to be fair and honest and what not. I guess in this case I was wrong for assuming I was being reasonable.

          Again, I can't get into detail about the freelance work...

          I guess it wouldn't matter if the guy tried to sell my stuff. I'd try to do what I can legally and it's not like I'm selling the next Harry Potter book. To sell something means you need to know how to sell...
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        • Profile picture of the author Michelle Adams
          If there was an agreement around the size of the job and the amount you would eventually pay then I think you owe him the full fee. He could very well have turned down work based on the knowledge that he was committed to your project. Just put yourself in his shoes and it might make things a little clearer.

          The good thing is you didn't intentionally set out to rip him off or anything like that.
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    • Profile picture of the author askloz
      Jason, in all honesty, I think you should pay him the FULL amount regardless if it's been completed as to previous specifications. Programmers should be kept in a safe like gold dust, they are hard to find - good ones at least.

      I think you should check out the terms and conditions of the contract on the freelancing website, and see if you are within your rights to close the contract early and what ramifications are to be expected.

      If you're in the clear, then he has no right to sell off the software without your permission and can be sued for breach of copyright.

      So check up on that stuff.

      IF however, you suggest to him, hey, I still want you to be the coder - which will make him more happy, and pay him for what he has done and perhaps give him some incentive money to continue with the reassurance that your ideas for the project wont be changed again, I'm sure that will help keep the relationship solid.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Can I play devils advocate?

    Many people don't realise this, but if you get someone to create a product for you - THEY own the rights to it. Unless you specifically get them to give up those rights for the work they're undertaking, it's actually legally considered theirs.

    The other thing is, if you entered into a agreement with this person that involved more time and money than they're now going to get - they're obviously going to be annoyed, they may even have turned down other work in order to cater for that project.

    So, if he's aware of his rights and you didn't protect yourself when entering into the arrangement - he might see his actions as perfectly reasonable and just the obvious way to get a return on his efforts.

    With all that said, I would expect that in any 'normal' relationship where you had communicated positively and kept him informed, things shouldn't come to this and he would be overreacting to behave like this.

    Whatever the situation - don't sweat it. If he's in the business of product creation - he's probably not a marketer and not as able as you to make something of the product anyway.

    Just suck it up, part in as good spirits as possible and focus on moving forward.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Can I play devils advocate?

      Many people don't realise this, but if you get someone to create a product for you - THEY own the rights to it. Unless you specifically get them to give up those rights for the work they're undertaking, it's actually legally considered theirs.

      The other thing is, if you entered into a agreement with this person that involved more time and money than they're now going to get - they're obviously going to be annoyed, they may even have turned down other work in order to cater for that project.

      So, if he's aware of his rights and you didn't protect yourself when entering into the arrangement - he might see his actions as perfectly reasonable and just the obvious way to get a return on his efforts.

      With all that said, I would expect that in any 'normal' relationship where you had communicated positively and kept him informed, things shouldn't come to this and he would be overreacting to behave like this.

      Whatever the situation - don't sweat it. If he's in the business of product creation - he's probably not a marketer and not as able as you to make something of the product anyway.

      Just suck it up, part in as good spirits as possible and focus on moving forward.

      Andy
      Thanks for your feedback man.

      I can't get into the details about the actual freelance work. Though I own copyright to the material. I created it. This was just an enhancement I guess you could say.

      ...I'm trying to get in touch with the guy as we speak so I can just pay him or whatever... I didn't think trying to pay him for work already done was an unreasonable move at the time.

      I guess I'm starting to see some points here that I didn't consider.

      You live and you learn I guess.

      I really wasn't expecting a punk rock, "Go piss off!" attitude... kind of caught me off guard. I was expecting... "yeah, that sounds fair."
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  • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
    I think you're fine dude. Don't worry about it
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  • Profile picture of the author Elliott
    I agree, if you're going to pay him the full amount, have him complete the work.

    Elliott
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  • Profile picture of the author andrewharrison
    Always get it all on paper. . . THAT is one brutal lesson I have been forced to learn. And Andy Henry is correct..

    IF, you go to someone and say, "I would please like you to create this for me." The copyright belongs to that person, UNLESS, you have it in writing that it does not, OR they develop the project in your office.

    He would most likely hold partial copyright for the "enhancements" If I were you, I would smooth it all over, PREVENT a problem from happening. After it is smoothed over, you might want to have a little chit-chat about your project. . .(No not in a dark alley with cousin Tony involved.) (Humour)

    Regards
    Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    I ended up paying the dude and mending the relationship, so we're good.

    Thanks everyone again for helping me understand the situation better.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Sanchez
      Business is business and a contract is a contract. If you agreed to the terms then you need to abide by the terms of the contract.

      Whether you use the work or not is up to you. I probably wouldn't have told him you weren't going to use it. Just abide by the contract and do whatever you want with the finished product.

      It's really none of his business if you decide not to use it. He only contracted to create it.

      That's my useless opinion anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author REHughes
      Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

      I ended up paying the dude and mending the relationship, so we're good.

      Thanks everyone again for helping me understand the situation better.

      Good move, Jason. I thought you might.

      Nice to see there are still some who will do what is right.

      Hope to see you around. I like being in the company of winners.

      Have a great day.

      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Jason -

        It says a lot about you that you are willing to consider opinions that didn't agree with what you originally wanted - and to see the problem from both sides and make adjustment.

        You done good!

        kay
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        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world will change forever for that one dog.
        It takes nothing away from a human to be kind to an animal.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    That's great to hear you paid and mended the relationship.

    Just to confirm what others have said and add just a bit:

    There are lots of reasons for this person to be upset: a broken (verbal?) agreement, lost income because of other (perhaps bigger and $better$) projects that he may have had to turn down because of the work he did on yours, etc. (All of this has been mentioned previously.)

    Here's something else -- he may have already put FAR more work into it then was actually visible. And so while you felt you were being fair by paying for what he's completed so far, he probably felt like he was being paid slave wages.

    Let me give you an example...

    Let's suppose you hired someone to write a 10,000 word report on a technical topic for you. They say they'll have it done in a week. A half a week passes and you kill the project. They say they've written 1000 words, so you pay them 10% of the total project fee.

    But here's the thing: The writer may have spent the last two or three days straight researching. So while the 1000 words perhaps took him one hour to write, the planning and research took days. And yet all he got paid for are the words, not the time he already put into the overall project.

    See what I'm saying?

    Anyway, just adding a little here. Again, I'm glad you worked it out and that you can see why killing the project is likely a breach of contract and why someone would get upset about it.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    An addendum--

    I also don't agree that freelancers should expect the people who hire them to kill projects midway through.

    As Kay said, folks are generally upset if a freelancer ditches midway through a project. In fact, there's a lot of "a freelancer ruined my launch plans" threads on this forum and elsewhere. So just as service providers can cause a lot of problems if they ditch early, so too can the people who hire the freelancers if they kill the project before completion. (Which is why, as someone said, kill fees are a good idea.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Stigson
    Pay it and go on with it? Don't focus on this, it will only hurt performance. Have a 'no tolerance for people messing with your money' and you'll be a lot better off

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    I am glad you were able to patch things up. I think this will benefit both of you in the long run.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author ajiabs
    That's great move and in the long run this would pay up. Its not worth burning bridges unnecessarily.

    What would you feel, if a freelancer cancels your project a week before the delivery date and says he got a bigger project, so he is cancelling this. He was feeling the other side of the coin, real or perceived.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

    And he gets all mad at me, says go piss off, and says he'll be infringing on my copyright... basically selling the stuff I was having him create for me based on my material.
    I wouldn't hire him again if that's his attitude.
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